Has anyone compiled a comparison of the converter boxes presently or shortly to be available on the market? In particular I am interested in which has the best tuner performance/latetst generation tuners in terms of handling moderately weak signal and/or multipath. For example my Samsung DLP set has a better tuner in this respect than does the HR20 attached to it.


I have two analog TV sets with DirecTV attached, but I'd like to be able to tune the local OTA ATSC feeds as well.

I have a (excel compatible) spreadsheet of the converters and what info I could find about them.

You can find it at octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_list_wip.xls

I plan on keeping it up to date for the next few months, the latest version will be at that URL.

I think it would be good to post it as a sticky at the start of this thread, but I don't remember how to get it into HTML format nor do I know how to make a sticky.

The only information I could find about how good a box works was an article at:

hdtvexpert.com

and all it said was " works very well. (No word on what generation 8VSB receiver is used in the DTT900, but it’s at least Gen5..."

(Sorry about hacking up the URLs. There's some rule about not being allowed to post URLs if you haven't posted three things)

>I have a (excel compatible) spreadsheet of the converters and what info I

>(Sorry about hacking up the URLs. There's some rule about not being allowed to post URLs if you haven't posted three things)

Hmmm. Come to think about it, if you ask me a question my answer would be #3........ 8-)

When you say a unit does not have S-Video output does that mean that in only has composite?
AFAIK tuner generations are vendor dependent the 5th generation tuner design from one vendor does not mean that it is any better then the 4th generation tuner designed by another vendor who started designing tuners a couple of years later.
I think it would also be important to know what format options are available for 16:9 resolution broadcasts, such as letterbox, zoom, centercut etc.

I think it would also be important to know what format options are available for 16:9 resolution broadcasts, such as letterbox, zoom, centercut etc.

I'm pretty sure the coupon-eligible STB's are required to provide letterbox and center-cut display options. "Center-cut" is called "zoom" or "side crop" on my various STB's.

Scroll down a bit on this webpage: http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box_Retailers.html and there are links to various boxes with some specs.

Here's a review for the RCA box. Gives a good explanation of how the crop feature works on it: http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/Zenith_DTT900%20.html

>When you say a unit does not have S-Video output does that mean that in only has composite?

All CECBs are required to have RF & composite outputs. If I put Yes under S-video, it means that when I looked at the web page, it either had a photo showing a S-video connector or text stating that it had S-video. If it says no it means that the photo/text did not show S-video.

>AFAIK tuner generations are vendor dependent the 5th generation tuner design from one vendor does not mean that it is any better then the 4th generation tuner designed by another vendor who started designing tuners a couple of years later.

All I'm concerned about is whether a converter has a tuner that is equal or superior to a LG 5th generation tuner, particularly in regards to multipath rejection. I would think that anyone wanting to do an objective independent test would want to know the same thing.

CECB speadsheet as of 01/19/08
Updated speadsheet has links to sources http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_list_wip.xls
Screenshot can be found at: http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_Spread.jpg

http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_Spread.jpg

Thank you for your previous response.

What is the Analog Pass feature?
Is Smart Antenna another term for multipath rejection?

No - it really is a "Smart Antenna". As you're doing your initial setup the antenna does various combinations of phasing to determine the best possible reception of the signal in terms of directionality. Then, as you tune to each channel, it remembers which setting provided optimum reception.

>What is the Analog Pass feature?

On most converter boxes the only output available on RF is the NTSC converter output. An "Analog Pass" feature lets you switch the box so the original antenna feed is passed through to box's RF out connector. This is important to people who listen to low power and translator stations that will still be transmitting analog NTSC after 2/17/09.

>Is Smart Antenna another term for multipath rejection?

Sort of. "Smart Antenna" is an additional (EIA/CEA-909) connector on the box that connects back to the TV antenna and tells it informaiton about what channel it is tuned to. The smart antenna adjusts itself for the best reception of that channel.

See http://www.dxantenna.co.jp/english/products/active_antenna/dta5000.pdf

Thank you,
I think I got it if you have a Smart Antenna and support for it you would not need to also have a tuner that has multipath rejection functionality.
Is it then also correct to say that if your signal strength is strong enough and your signals are from the same general location then a multipath tuner would be a less expensive solution then a Smart Antenna?

That's hard to say. I see the Smart antenna as being marketed for those folks who have no clue where their stations are and just need a quick solution with minimal brainpower to get good reception. Or maybe for those who have stations coming from 2 or more different directions - you wouldn't need a rotator if you had one of these.

Is a QAM receiver an allowed feature on these boxes?

Ed

No word officially one way or the other. Some of the conversion boxes will have them, some won't. Those that do will NOT have any capablity for encrypted QAM - no cablecard capability allowed.

>I think I got it if you have a Smart Antenna and support for it you would not need to also have a tuner that has multipath rejection functionality.
Is it then also correct to say that if your signal strength is strong enough and your signals are from the same general location then a multipath tuner would be a less expensive solution then a Smart Antenna?

If you have multipath problem, step one is to get a converter that's good at handling multipath. While I imagine a smart antenna would improve most multipath problems, they are not very common, probably wouldn't be cheap, and like the last guy said, probably more of a solution for people dealing with transmitters that are in different directions.

In my particular case, I'm 4-5 miles from an antenna farm. While they are all close to the same direction, it's difficult to find one rabbit ear position that gives a good analog signal on all channels. I figure that good multipath rejection will make the antenna positioning less critical. Worst case is I'll have to pay $20 for a LG box as opposed to $0 for an Echostar.

I'm looking for:
First: Good multipath capability
Second: Remote that works nice
Third: S-video out

If smart antennas were cheap and available, it would be a good back up in case a good tuner wasn't enough. I wish the LG/Zenith box had s-video out..... Hopefully there are other brands with tuners that are as good as or better than the Zenith.

>Is a QAM receiver an allowed feature on these boxes? Ed

It seems inconsistent with the government specs, but the Digital STREAM D2A1D10 is supposed to include a QAM tuner. See http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Digital_STREAM_D2A1D10.html

You can find the government rules at: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf

SMPowell-Thanks for the links. On the second one, I saw no rule specifically forbidding a QAM tuner. Also does anyone know if any of the converter boxes will have MTS stereo available via there RF modulator? Come to think of it, do any DVDR's, cable boxes etc. provide MTS over ch3 or ch4? I've never seen one personally.

The only channel 3/4 modulator that I've ever seen that has stereo were sold at Walmart as DVD accessories for your old TV that only had RF input. I know I have seen UHF modulators that were both in stereo and DVD compatible, but both of these type of devices were way out of the price league of the intended coupon box market.

Thanks for the info. So would it be same to assume that the Stereo RF 3/4 modulator at Walmart actually outputted MTS stereo, which would be receivable on my MTS TV?

>Thanks for the links. On the second one, I saw no rule specifically forbidding a QAM tuner.

On page 8, first entry under "Disqualifying Feature" it says:
"Any device or capability which provides for more than simply converting a digital over-the-air television signal (ATSC) for display on an analog television (NTSC),.....".

If QAM is not allowed in a coupon box, they should either remove the D2A1D10 from the list or edit the page on their site which states this feature. In my opinion, people will certainly complain if they order the D2A1D10 based on the specs listed on the webpage and then later find that a feature missing.

>Thanks for the links. On the second one, I saw no rule specifically forbidding a QAM tuner.

On page 8, first entry under "Disqualifying Feature" it says:
"Any device or capability which provides for more than simply converting a digital over-the-air television signal (ATSC) for display on an analog television (NTSC),.....".
While that PDF is a convenient summary, I believe the official ruling is here:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2e.htm
I'm a little skeptical that the appendices can be more restrictive than what's in the final ruling.

>While that PDF is a convenient summary, I believe the official ruling is here:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frn...nalRule_2e.htm
I'm a little skeptical that the appendices can be more restrictive than what's in the final ruling.

Except the technical appendices are adopted in section II paragraph 39.

Except the technical appendices are adopted in section II paragraph 39.
Well, that's what I get for going from memory. I was researching this a few weeks ago and it seems to me more than one of the approved boxes do QAM though. I don't see this as much different than how NTSC tuners pick up at least some analog cable channels. If they aren't careful they could spec things to the point where it costs more to disable features in the box design than provide them.

I wonder what kind of chip the Channel Master 7000 uses and if the Government will approve this box? It has S-Video output, too! :D

http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/pdfs/CM-7000%20D2A_200801b.pdf

Antenna NTSC and cable NTSC signals are to the same standard.
Digital ATSC and Digital QAM are too different standards.
Also it makes total sense to me that the goverment would not issue discount coupons paid for by us tax payers to subsidize a users cable service since the purpose of the subsidiy is only to assist the user who currently uses OTA analog service which is going away

CECB speadsheet as of 01/19/08
Updated speadsheet has links to sources http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_list_wip.xls
Screenshot can be found at: http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_Spread.jpg


The Tivax does not list S-Video as one of it's features. However, it looks like it may have upgradeable firmware.

Here's a list of specs I copied from a translated Chinese page, found when I googled "Tivax STB-9". Also found was a picture of the box it will come in, which indicates it's eligibility for the government coupon program.

Roduct Name
ATSC Converter Box Receiver ATSC Converter Box Receiver

Power Supply Power Supply
Input Voltage: 100 - 240V 50/60Hz Input Voltage: 100 - 240V 50/60Hz
Consumption: Maximum <8W,Standby <1W. Consumption: Maximum <8W, Standby <1W.

Decoder
Video Format: Standard definition CVBS. Video Format: Standard definition CVBS.
Audio Format: Dolby Digital audio Audio Format: Dolby Digital audio

RF Signal Input/Output RF Signal Input / Output
ATSC Antenna/Cable RF In: F-Connector ATSC Antenna / Cable RF In: F-Connector
NTSC Ch3/4 RF out: F-Connector NTSC Ch3 / 4 RF out: F-Connector
Antenna Impedance: 75 Ohms Antenna Impedance: 75 Ohms
Channels: VHF 2 -13 , UHF 14 - 69 Channels: 2 -13 VHF, UHF 14 - 69
Smart Antenna interface Smart Antenna interface

Video Outputs Video Outputs
Composite Video Output for standard analog sets: RCA Connector Composite Video Output for standard analog sets: RCA Connector

Audio Outputs Audio Outputs
Analog Audio Outputs (L/R): RCA Connectors Analog Audio Outputs (L / R): RCA Connectors

Service
Software upgrade through RS-232 port: 9 pin D-Sub type Software upgrade through RS-232 port: 9 pin D-Sub type
The professional technician can connect the ATSC converter box RS-232 port with the PC serial port and run a special program at the PC to software upgrade the unit to repair problems and make necessary updates. The professional technician can connect the ATSC converter box RS-232 port with the PC serial port and run a special program at the PC to software upgrade the unit to repair problems and make necessary updates.

Remote Control format Remote Control format
NEC protocol (38KHz carrier pulse width modulation) NEC protocol (38KHz carrier pulse width modulation)

>The Tivax does not list S-Video as one of it's features. However, it looks like it may have upgradeable firmware.

>Here's a list of specs I copied from a translated Chinese page, found when I googled "Tivax STB-9".

The S-video info was from
http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Tivax_STB-T9.html

detail.china.alibaba.com/buyer/offerdetail/117973134.html looks like a more authoritative source, so I'll update the linked spreadsheet.

Thanks for the info

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CECB speadsheet as of 01/19/08
Updated speadsheet has links to sources http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_list_wip.xls
Screenshot can be found at: http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_Spread.jpg

http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_Spread.jpg

I didn't think Dolby Digital audio output was allowed for a CECB ?

smpowell, Thanks for the great CECB spreadsheet. I'm new to all this, but I'm learning. Your sheet and the discussions will help me make a decision.

I'm still wondering which of these boxes will have the best tuner performance. That is imprortant for my situation. I figure the LG (Zenith) box will have their 5th or 6th generation tuners in it which are purported to handle multipath and weak signal well.

The attachment show my weak signal even though I live only 20 miles from the Atlanta towers. I have a roof mounted 4228 and preamp that does a good job considering. However, my DLP TV does a much better job with the OTA signals than does the HR20 DVR hooked up to it.

Walmart has the Magnavox converter box on their website as for sale (though you can't buy it online...just in stores.)...$50.

The attachment shows why good ATSC tuner performance is relevant for me. I live in the blue area shadowed by Kennesaw Mtn.....only 20 miles from the towers.

This picture from tvfool.com is for WATL-DT 25

Magnavox TB100MW9 $49.87 In Limited Stores
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8283870

PHILCO TB100HH9 $48.32 (?stock)
http://www.emartinc.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=38102

RjTECH RJ-900ATSC (Not CECB but includes QAM) $59.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882107064

Best Buy has the Insignia
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8624081&st=CONVERTER&type=product&id=1199495190393

Radio Shack: Zenith

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3006502&cp=&pg=2&searchSort=TRUE&sr=1&y=11&y=11&retainProdsInSession=1&retainProdsInSession=1&origkw=converter&s=A-StorePrice-RSK&x=12&x=11&kw=converter&parentPage=search

Do the included remote controls power off various brands of TVs and control volume?

This would certainly make these boxes more Grandma friendly.

"You mean I have to have TWO remotes....!"

I can hear it now. "No Grandma you have to buy another remote that knows the codeS for both devices" "WHAT!?!!?" :eek:


:D

Not on the approved converter list, but got my RJTech RJ900 today. First impressions are quite positive, and the tuner sensitivity is above average.
More in this thread later this weekend once I play more. Much better box than I expected especially for a no-name. :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=984939

In your CECB spreadsheet I added a few new columns of interest and updated several entries.

I found a Zoran 3Q2007 Quarterly report that listed which NTIA SD-STBs used Zoran parts:
http://www.zoran.com/ZORAN-CORPORATION-REPORTS-RECORD,258?var_recherche=ntia

" Zoran-based NTIA-certified DTV converter boxes, designed to meet Energy Star requirements,
include models from AMTC, AccessHD, Apex Digital, MicroGEM, RCA, Tivax and others."

Three generation of Zoran parts have fully met ATSC A/74 Performance Guidelines
and have been successfully tested by CRC (Canadian Research Center):
http://www.zoran.com/SupraHD-741?var_recherche=ntia
http://www.zoran.com/Zoran-s-ATSC-Digital-Television
http://www.zoran.com/Zoran-Demonstrates-ATSC-Set-Top

Note that all NTIA Approved SD-STBs on the CECB list must meet ALL of the
minimum performance requirements in Appendix to Manu. Coupon Guidance:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf

NONE of the prototype units tested by CRC (Canadian Research Center) a few years ago
met all A/74 requirements at that time., incl 5th Gen LG and Samsung "Gemini" chips):
http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/research/broadcast/rtnt
Back then, they didn't even test the "real-life" Field Ensembles, which is
where the greatest advances have been made.....we've come a long way....

PS: Since spreadsheet couldn't readily be printed, I tweaked the format as well:

Note that RCA DTA-800 comes in two very different versions:

RCA DTA-800B uses Broadcom's new BCM3543 "super-chip"
which has an internal ATSC Decoder function:
http://www.broadcom.com./press/release.php?id=1100545&source=home

RCA DTA-800A uses Zoran SupraHD 640 "super-chip" with a
separate Cascade 220 ATSC Decoder chip (an older design):
http://www.zoran.com/Zoran-Corporation-Powers-RCA-s?var_recherche=rca+dta800

Apex DT1001 uses the latest Zoran SupraHD 741,
with internal ATSC Decoder function.

========================
But we still don't know whether 5th or 6th Generation LG chip
is used in LG Insignia and LG-Zenith boxes....or maybe something else....
until someone checks the part numbers:
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200612/200612280032.html
The smaller 6th gen is on the left and 5th gen LGDT3303 on the right....
and 4th gen LGDT3302 was in LST-4200A HD-STB.

=========================
Sansonic FT300A and FT300RT use Auvitek AU8515 ATSC Decoder chip with
MicroTuner MT2131 Double Conversion RF Mixer/IF chip:
http://www.microtune.com/products/pdf/mt2131_11.pdf
Nearly all HDTV/HD-STBs are Single Conversion....it is not yet sorted out
how the advantages & disadvantages of each are somehow "better" overall....

Auvitek's "6th Generation" had longest equalizer length ever tested by CRC:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0115/t.10652.html
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0115/t.10454.html
More re Auvitek AU8515:
http://www.auvitek.com/Products/AU8515.html
http://www.auvitek.com/News.html#0

=========================
FYI: More info re earlier CRC Tests (Samsung outperformed LG 5th Gen):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6059066&highlight=basic+english

No one ever made a "Gemini" ATSC Decoder chip...but Samsung DTB-H260F
actually uses AMD-ATI Xillion 240H chip with an Alps Tuner NIM.
PrimeDTV PHD-200 & PHD-205 also use AMD-ATI Xillion 240H w Alps NIM.

An AMD-ATI report re A/74 Field Ensemble test results:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6517693762
Two "best" chips are their own products--no doubt Theater (T312, T314)
and/or Xillion chips.

=========================
FCC OET comparison test of various HD-STBs & HDTVs (Sec 6 Field Ensembles):
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6517693762

No names, but one low performance HD-STB has Smart Antenna control...
hence is my Sylvania 6900DTE (with 3rd Gen AMD-ATI NXT2004).

There were two groups: high performance HDTVs and low performance HDTVs/HD-STBs.
My guess is the high performance units contained Theater/Xillion and/or LG 5th Gen chips.
And the "best" low performance HD-STB was probably the LG LST-4200A
(highly rated at the time)....with a dearth of 5th Gen HD-STBs.

=========================
Wish CRC would release these new reports....newer should be better....

Since the LG 5th Gen and Zoran Supra 640 + Cascade 220 chips are older
designs, I'll be avoiding those units (e.g. RCA DTA-800A, the "A" version).

Unless some specific test results magically appear, I'll equally consider
Zoran SupraHD 741, Broadcom BCM3543, Auvitek 8515 and LG 6th Gen....

But I'm only interested in boxes with EIA/CEA-909 Smart Antenna interface.

Are the better 6th gen ATSC tuners only in converter boxes and tvs?

> Three generation of Zoran parts have fully met ATSC A/74 Performance Guidelines
> and have been successfully tested by CRC (Canadian Research Center):

Where does it say that CRC tested three generations of Zoran parts?
I don't see where they actually say exactly which chip(s) the CRC tested.
(I do see a lot of marketing weasel wording.)

> I just wish CRC would release these new reports...

Yes!

BTW, we need something a LOT better than A/74. :-( I have the Cascade2 demod
which they claim meets A/74 and it frequently drops the ball big time. Despite
plenty of signal strength and beautiful analogs (no snow, no ghosts, no interference).

I had a similar experience with my Huappage WinTV-HVR-950 USB Stick Tuner (5thGen LG)
& Silver Sensor antenna last summer while on a road trip from San Diego to Canada & return.

With my laptop I could find station locations via *.kmz overlay on GoogleEarth (from www.tvfool.com).
And I could even run a quick propagation prediction via Radio Mobile....(and now also tvfool).
And watch error statistics via tsreaderlite while it tried to decode a DTV signal....

Must be something about motel construction...analogs came in okay, but digital was always breaking up...

============================
Note that HVR-950 changed from 5thGen LG to Auvitek and HVR-950Q (now with QAM) uses Micronas:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0115/t.10652.html

SMART ANTENNAS (I thought you would never ask.....):

<kenglish> says the DX Antenna DTA-5000 Smart Antenna works with
PROTOTYPE RCA DTA-800:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12140562&highlight=dta5000#post12140562
Which begs the question: which version, Zoran (A) or Broadcom (B)???

I posted a summary re my experience with DX Antenna's DTA-5000 Smart Antenna,
as controlled by the Sylvania 6900DTE (aka Funai STB400), the one-and-only HD-STB
with an EIA/CEA-909 Smart Antenna control interface (thus far...hopefully more to come):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9948798&highlight=dta5000#post9948798
plus this one:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7727812&highlight=dta5000#post7727812
I compared indoor and outdoor performance against 4-Bay and 8-Bay antennas.
You'll also find internal pictures and descriptions, including algorithms.

The current implements appear to simply search in all 16 compass direction, looking
for the "best" reception setting, rather than using a Maximal Ratio Combiner....
MRC is available with European dual and quad antenna DVB-T (DTV) car installations.

=============================================
More on optimum Maximal Ratio Combiners (MRC) for antenna diversity:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/opendtv/02-2007/msg00434.html

Antennas diversity has even been tested with the (apparently difficult to implement)
ATSC signals:
http://lrts.gel.ulaval.ca/publications/uploadPDF/publication_11.pdf
http://www.fuzing.com/vli/00287106a388/Twin-tuner-ATSC-car-receiver-with-diversity
http://www.mrcdefense.com/files/other/products_43_295110.pdf

=============================================
Some technical papers of interest to the ubberrgeekk:
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2002%2F056502&IA=WO2002%2F056502&DISPLAY=DESC
http://itl.knu.ac.kr/member/lim/04_channel%20selective%20diversity%20for%20DTV%20mobile%20re ception%20with.pdf
http://itl.knu.ac.kr/member/moon/ccct03_final.pdf

Fol. require IEEE document on-line subscription...or a good University library:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel5/9530/30201/01387977.pdf
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel5/9623/30410/01400005.pdf
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4266904
also
“Antenna Diversity for Improved Indoor Reception of US Digital Terrestrial
Television Receivers”, J. Meehan, Philips Research USA, IEEE Trans. on Consumer
Electronics, Vol 48, No. 4, Nov2002.
and
“An EIA/CEA-909 Compatible Smart Antenna System for Digital Terrestrial
Broadcasting Applications”, Andrew Youtz, John Zygmaniak,
Samuel Reichgott, David Koeger, ATI, IEEE Broadcast Symp., Oct2002.

The (Japanese) DX Antenna DTA-5000 Smart Antenna seems to be
much less available than last year:
http://www.dxantenna.co.jp/english/products/active_antenna/dta5000.html
http://www.summitsource.com/dx-antenna-dta5000-tv-smart-antenna-multidirectional-hdtv-digital-uhf-vhf-outdoor-offair-high-definition-local-hd-sylvania-television-reception-aerial-green-zone-part-dta5000-p-6320.html?manufacturers_id=54
http://www.ftasatellitesales.com/ota.htm
BTW: I've seen many different brand names attached to the DTA-5000...

=======================================
GE-Jasco announced a Smart Digital Antenna:
http://www.jascoproducts.com/hdtv/GE-Smart-Digital-Antenna.asp
Which they say ONLY works with the new GE STB.
[So does that mean it doesn't conform to the EIA/CEA-909 standard???]

====================================
Broadcom also seems to have a new Smart Antenna design:
http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/Digital-TV-Solutions/BCM3543
which was spotted at CES2008 (see slide 17):
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=142836&page_number=1&image_number=17&site=

Seems to be two side-by-side cross-loop antennas, one pair offset 45-degrees
to the other. In a cross-loop antenna, one loop is 90-degrees to the other.
Gee, maybe they simply cycle through each of the four loop antennas.....or
go the next step and form mixture signals to scan all 16 compass directions.

Reportedly, it came with Broadcom's merger with Pause-TV:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0157/t.8709.html
http://www.pause-tv.com/
http://www.pause-tv.com/great-picture.html

==================================
Audiovox announced Smart Antennas at CES2008: indoor Terk HDS01 (HDSA1?),
indoor/outdoor Terk HDSA02 and outdoor RCA ANT2000 (note brand name!!).
http://www.audiovox.com/pressrelease/AEC/release_AEC_200801075.html
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0115/t.10651.html

I'm pretty sure the ANT2000 is in slide 43 along with the RCA DTA-800:
http://www.tvfmtranslators.com/2007_Convention_Papers/JGale%20***************%20_%20Last%20100%20YARDS_%20%205-5-07.pdf
[Keep retrying...download seems to get hung up....]
Also shows DTV transmitter for PBS station in New Mexico....
and some measurements for a few popular antennas.
DTA-800's Smart Antenna control connector looks same as my Sylvania 6900DTE.

The Terk HDSA1 was awarded an Innovation Award at CES2008:
http://www.cesweb.org/attendees/awards/innovations/rd_2008honorees.asp?category=896080
this is the image they posted (really, a flat panel with nulls on the sides???):
http://www.mblast.com/files/companies/150231/Logo/Illustrator-EPS-CMYK/terkleader2.jpeg

===================================
Darn, I missed seeing ANY Smart Antennas while at CES2008....
it would help if they announced these things BEFORE the show....

I have yet to find any of the new Smart Antennas available for sale....

=============================================
A step back in time:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2003_April_7/ai_99693172
http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_294-nab2003.html
ATI DTV-5000 picture is at the end of the NAB2003 Report.

I also saw a picture of another early Smart Antenna, which was probably
four Silver Sensor type antennas stacked vertically, each pointed towards
a different compass heading.

==========================================
And one of the more unusual Patent Applications I ran across:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6697610-description.html
On 15Jun2006, Zenith filed a patent for a Smart Antenna control system that would
automatically ROTATE A MAST mounted with a lo-band VHF, hi-band VHF and UHF antenna,
depending on which channel the user is tuned to....mumble, mumble...mumble....
[Beats me why these patent sites don't post the patent figures....]

I have yet to find any of the new Smart Antennas available for sale....

Same here, I'm looking for one myself to test with the RJTech RJ900 STB,
which seems to be the Mustek box..

Channel Master posted spec sheet for CM-7000:
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/pdfs/CM-7000%20D2A_200801b.pdf
Yup, it is A/74 compliant, has an EPG, S-Video and Coax Digital Audio.

> I had a similar experience with my Huappage WinTV-HVR-950
> USB Stick Tuner (5thGen LG) & Silver Sensor antenna last
> summer while on a road trip from San Diego to Canada & return.

What? Silver Sensor? I thought you were Mr. CM4228?

> Must be something about motel construction...analogs came in okay,
> but digital was always breaking up...

I don't live in a motel. I always assumed that crappy motel tv pictures
were due to cheap TVs and indifferent owners.

CM-4228 wouldn't fit indoors (Volvo Turbo Sportwagon)...no attic....
and roof mount wind resistance would slow me down too much....

Now if I only had a high-gain, mobile, Smart Antenna....an oxymoron...

CECB speadsheet as of 02/15/08 SMP
Updated speadsheet has links to sources http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_list_wip.xls
Screenshot can be found at: http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_Spread.jpg

http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_Spread.jpg

I am glad to see a common place for the new CECB comparisons and wondered if there is any info about the programming guide availability that can be added?

any info about the programming guide availability

EPG is part of the requirements for the coupon eligible boxes so they all have one. The question is if the EPG in each box is worth a damn but hopefully they put enough thought in to it so the gripes will be minor.

If you meant channels to fill it up though there are local reception threads here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45

CECB applicants can verity the status of their application at https://www.dtv2009.gov/CheckStatus.aspx

If it's in process, you should receive this message:

Coupon Status Found
Your application was recently approved and we are currently preparing to mail your coupons.

>I am glad to see a common place for the new CECB comparisons and wondered if there is any info about the programming guide availability that can be added?

There is a modified version of my spreadsheet that has some EPG info.
See:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13012449#post13012449

I don't see anything in the specs about requiring EPG, but it looks like most if not all of the converters have some form of EPG.

If someone can verify that a model doesn't have EPG, I might add the info to my version.

[QUOTE=smpowell;13056337I don't see anything in the specs about requiring EPG, but it looks like most if not all of the converters have some form of EPG.
.[/QUOTE]

EPG is a requirement for the coupon boxes.

Ran into government web page that lists # of coupons requested

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html

As of 2/6/2008 4,407,645 were requested


Just to state the obvious. If you have cable or satellite but want a CECB anyway, you need to get in on the first 22 million. The last 11 million are for OTA households only.

But you might want one for:

-Back up during cable outage on your analog TV
-Analog TV that's not connected to sat/cable
-See if a newer tuner would help reception on an older HDTV or DTV
-Gift for someone who needs more than 2 converters
-Gift for relative in Canada or Mexico, especially if they are within TV range of the US border. Canada is going ATSC 8/2011, Mexico, eh, sometime.

The Echostar TR-40 will have TV Guide's EPG. Has anybody used their EPG?

"Your application was recently approved and we are currently preparing to mail your coupons."

Yay! Now I just have to hope enough boxes are ready and available with specs before they expire.

One other feature I would like to see on the spreadsheet - does the box include an NTSC tuner as well ? I have one application that this would be a good thing to have.

Artec T3A
http://www.king-cart.com/18inch/product=Digital+to+Analog+Converter%27s/exact_match=exact

Magnavox TB100MW9
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=986114
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13070283#post13070283


RCA DTA 800B
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13067741#post13067741

Zenith DTT900 / Insignia NS-DXA1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13047439#post13047439
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/Zenith_DTT900%20.html
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13050632#post13050632
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13109313#post13109313
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13111249#post13111249
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13165078#post13165078

One other feature I would like to see on the spreadsheet - does the box include an NTSC tuner as well ? I have one application that this would be a good thing to have.

I would like to second that request, since LP's and translators will still be transmitting analog signals.

One other feature I would like to see on the spreadsheet - does the box include an NTSC tuner as well ?

I will be surprised if any of them do. After all, their intended "market" is people who already have TVs with (only) NTSC tuners.

:) According to their web site, RadioShack is selling the Zenith DTT900 for a new price of $59.99 (instead of the previous price of $69.99).

Use this coupon: https://moversguide.usps.com/img/coupon/bestbuy/200801_clientarea.gif with your $40 gov't coupon at Best Buy and get a few more bucks off your CECB. Good until 2/29.

I doubt you will find one with an internal NTSC tuner....none so far....

What you need to look for is whether they have "RF PASS THRU",
which will connect the antenna through to your existing TV.

Regarding EPG, some certainly will be much better than others. The Zenith for example only displays the current and next program and will only remember programming for channels you manually tune to.

As far as an NTSC tuner, unfortunatly I think the rules prohibit it. Many of the chips being used have a built-in NTSC tuner so it could be provided with little or no cost, but it is disabled in the boxes.

As I understand it, the purpose of coupon-eligible converters is to maintain the same functionality for owners of analog-only sets that they've always had via the set's internal NTSC tuner, but now within the ATSC realm.

It may sound primitive to us, but I'd bet the vast majority of the intended buyers for these converters currently have a simple OTA antenna feed running straight to the TV's RF input. Others run OTA into their VCR tuner, with a second coax link from the VCR's RF output to the TV. (The fact that CECB's are required to have an RF (ch 3/4) modulator appears to confirm this.) Since MTS stereo has been included in TVs and VCR tuners for many years, customers can currently view and record OTA with stereo audio using nothing but these basic RF connections.

That's why I find it so odd that CECB's are not required to deliver MTS stereo via their RF modulator output. Without this, people with RF-only connections completely lose their stereo sound unless they can figure out how to use the more complex composite + RCA audio connections instead -- and that assumes their TV even has these inputs. A lot of these folks have trouble just setting their VCR so it's not flashing "12:00" -- can you imagine trying to teach them about composite video, L/R RCA audio connections, and how to setup their TVs and VCRs to view those inputs instead of the NTSC tuner?

Rob

That's why I find it so odd that CECB's are not required to deliver MTS stereo via their RF modulator output.

The vast majority of VCRs do not deliver MTS stereo via their RF modulator output, so users with VCRs are accustomed to either listening to programming in mono or using the AV cables. From my experience most if not all stereo TVs have AV inputs so delivering MTS stereo via RF modulator is not an important feature. To keep the cost of the box down, they want to only require features that are important.

I just wish they permitted it to have an NTSC tuner to make it easier to surf both analog and digital channels.

I just wish they permitted it to have an NTSC tuner to make it easier to surf both analog and digital channels.

This seems to be the product of sheer cluelessness on the part of the NTIA. Even after 2/2009, there will be analog broadcasts (only full power stations are required to cease by that date).

I have never seen ANY consumer device anywhere that will output an RF MTS stereo signal. I have seen analog cable boxes that will, but they only change the frequency and to not otherwise alter the signal, so that doesn't count.

As I understand it, the purpose of coupon-eligible converters is to maintain the same functionality for owners of analog-only sets that they've always had via the set's internal NTSC tuner, but now within the ATSC realm.

It may sound primitive to us, but I'd bet the vast majority of the intended buyers for these converters currently have a simple OTA antenna feed running straight to the TV's RF input. Others run OTA into their VCR tuner, with a second coax link from the VCR's RF output to the TV. (The fact that CECB's are required to have an RF (ch 3/4) modulator appears to confirm this.) Since MTS stereo has been included in TVs and VCR tuners for many years, customers can currently view and record OTA with stereo audio using nothing but these basic RF connections.

That's why I find it so odd that CECB's are not required to deliver MTS stereo via their RF modulator output. Without this, people with RF-only connections completely lose their stereo sound unless they can figure out how to use the more complex composite + RCA audio connections instead -- and that assumes their TV even has these inputs. A lot of these folks have trouble just setting their VCR so it's not flashing "12:00" -- can you imagine trying to teach them about composite video, L/R RCA audio connections, and how to setup their TVs and VCRs to view those inputs instead of the NTSC tuner?

Rob

You're making a big deal out of a trivial issue. These same folks probably can't tell the difference between stereo and mono.

Just bought an RCA DTA 800. Input is a 75 ohm F-connector, outputs are 75 ohm F (Ch 3/4 selectable) and composite video, with Left and Right channels for audio. There is also an RJ-45 for the smart antenna, which I don't have (does this make it a "B" model with the Broadcom chip?).

Initial testing, with two sets and four antennas (two inside, two outside):

The unit is exceedingly easy to program and control. Sensistivity is good (listed as -83 dbm to -5 dbm), and I was able to pick up KNLC-DT on reverse on one of the outside antennas (neat trick). Easily better performance than my Samsung 4th gen reciever.

I live in front-end overload hell, right under the guns, plus some multipath. Good performance for a first try. I'll try some DX'ing later.

One feature of use to indoor antenna users is an audio tone that allows the installer to check signal stregnth while moving the antenna (no looking/running back to the set). Huge buttons on the remote. Unit is an all-or-nothing program scan, so any channel you want to antenna-test must be captured first. No additional channel update feature. The unit does allow for letterboxing on a 4:3 screen (default is off/4:3).

All output is 480i.

Using any analog tuner with the converter box passing RF (converter unit off) is going to result in seriously degraded signal stregnth. It's DTV or snow...choose. Do not split or chain devices downstream from this unit.

In summary, the box does what it is advertised to do- allow an analog set to recieve DTV.

The vast majority of VCRs do not deliver MTS stereo via their RF modulator output, so users with VCRs are accustomed to either listening to programming in mono or using the AV cables. From my experience most if not all stereo TVs have AV inputs so delivering MTS stereo via RF modulator is not an important feature. To keep the cost of the box down, they want to only require features that are important.

I just wish they permitted it to have an NTSC tuner to make it easier to surf both analog and digital channels.

I have seen ONE device in my entire life that delivered RF stereo over channel 3 / 4 - and that was intended to take a composite A/V signal from a DVD player to an older stereo TV without said A/V jacks. I have seen UHF frequency agile stereo modulators.

For most of the intended market - what the CECBs are delivering is plenty. Analog passthrough when off would seem to be a no-brainer to include in these, but you can always split the signal and use a switch. Yes, I would also like an NTSC tuner in one of these - I have a digital tuner TV in my bedroom that the NTSC tuner went out, but the digital tuner / composite A/V inputs are fine. My solution was to dig the old unused VCR out.

Am I the only one who finds the idea of including an NTSC tuner in an ATSC converter completely absurd? Why would they jack up the price to include something everyone already has, and will be obsolete in the next few months?

Am I the only one who finds the idea of including an NTSC tuner in an ATSC converter completely absurd? ?

No, I agree it would be a dumb idea, and would lead to a lot of problems when analog is turned off. And the box the "gubmint" made people get no longer gets all the noisy, ghosty channels it did before,
becuase it won't get the digital ones with the .99 walmart antenna.

Am I the only one who finds the idea of including an NTSC tuner in an ATSC converter completely absurd? Why would they jack up the price to include something everyone already has, and will be obsolete in the next few months?

If it doesn't support NTSC, then it requires a more complex setup to receive analog (split the antenna signal, etc).

Am I the only one who finds the idea of including an NTSC tuner in an ATSC converter completely absurd? Why would they jack up the price to include something everyone already has, and will be obsolete in the next few months?

Those in remote locations are probably receiving signals from Low Power stations or translators, these stations can still transmit in analog past the 2.2009 cut-off date.

I have one such station, they currently transmit analog and digital, and I've tried to receive it with the Samsung set top HDTV tuner, but I cannot get it. Analog, it is watchable, but snowy.

If the STB had an NTSC and ATSC tuner, it would just allow you to not have to switch inputs on the TV, that's all.

If I find it that much of an inconvienience, I'll just use a DVD recorder as my tuner.

If it doesn't support NTSC, then it requires a more complex setup to receive analog (split the antenna signal, etc).

If you have it connected via RF (which I assume the majority of the target consumers will) it should only be as complex as pressing the power button on the remote, putting the remote in TV mode and changing the channel... And for those who have it connected via composite, they would simply need to connect the included coax cable to their TV so the box would pass the signal to the TV when the box is off.

If you have it connected via RF (which I assume the majority of the target consumers will) it should only be as complex as pressing the power button on the remote, putting the remote in TV mode and changing the channel... And for those who have it connected via composite, they would simply need to connect the included coax cable to their TV so the box would pass the signal to the TV when the box is off.

Pass through is an acceptable alternative, sure. But directly supporting NTSC is better, and not absurd, given that it's a "free" feature of many digital TV chips.

With PASS-THRU, Grandma has to remember to turn the box OFF and use
TV R/C to watch some channels and turn the box ON and switch to the box
R/C to watch others....unacceptable....even with an integrated R/C.

If an RF Splitter is used to feed both the box and TV, then she still has to deal
with the remote control shuffle....still unacceptable....

Integrated ATSC/NTSC tuner would solve confusing remote control shuffle problem....

Just bought an RCA DTA 800. Input is a 75 ohm F-connector, outputs are 75 ohm F (Ch 3/4 selectable) and composite video, with Left and Right channels for audio. There is also an RJ-45 for the smart antenna, which I don't have (does this make it a "B" model with the Broadcom chip?).

The "A" model uses Zoran/Oren-Cascade and "B" model uses Broadcom ATSC Decoder chips.
Press releases from each manufacturer say they support Smart Antenna I/F.

Apparently you'll need to pop the cover to let us know which big chips it uses.
If you could, also let us know part numbers on the tin can tuner.
And a few pictures??? (macro mode, offset angle to prevent flash reflections).

Maybe the serial number series are different for the two boxes???

The "A" model uses Zoran/Oren-Cascade and "B" model uses Broadcom ATSC Decoder chips.

Sure would be nice to do a side by side comparison of actual production units. So far these units are
not available here yet.

The "A" model uses Zoran/Oren-Cascade and "B" model uses Broadcom ATSC Decoder chips.
Press releases from each manufacturer say they support Smart Antenna I/F.

Apparently you'll need to pop the cover to let us know which big chips it uses.
If you could, also let us know part numbers on the tin can tuner.
And a few pictures??? (macro mode, offset angle to prevent flash reflections).

Maybe the serial number series are different for the two boxes???

Should have looked first. It's right next to the S/N#: DTA800B S/N PA111J026A1360. One of the menus I paged through had a firmware date of 8 JAN 08.

OK, case open, $50 shot.

My cell phone shots are low-res, so I'll have to write down the chip information.

Chip is a Broadcom. 1ST LINE: BCM3543KPB5G. 2ND LINE: TN0749 P20 3RD LINE: 849780 U3

Presumed S/N sticker on PCB board is : 08 01 34570
Inlaid number on PCB board shows DTA800B-07

I'll post photos, if I can figure out how to do so :)

Ok, here are shots of the interior and back of the unit. Apologies for the low-res and background; it IS a ham "shack" after all...

Put the box back together. Still works. :)

RF passthrough for analog, converter box power on or off, is horrible. Tried on three sets now, all bad results. Great for DTV, death for analog. To those wishing for an NTSC tuner, I think this is what they had in mind: DTV, or nothing.

Use this coupon: https://moversguide.usps.com/img/coupon/bestbuy/200801_clientarea.gif with your $40 gov't coupon at Best Buy and get a few more bucks off your CECB. Good until 2/29.

They have not even started mailing coupons out yet have they?

The DTV2009 site says coupons will be mailed at the end of the month.

Circuit City pulled the converter box from their website, and nothing released has RF pass-through. Is there any word on the release date of the Echostar CECB?

My tuner just died on my VCR (great timing), the line in recording still works, so it looks like I'll be buy one of these soon.

The DTV2009 site says coupons will be mailed at the end of the month.

Circuit City pulled the converter box from their website

I believe they are supposed to be mailed out on the 17th. But that's a Sunday, so more likely the 18th. I'm hoping to have my coupon on time to use the BB coupon. Plus I have a BB gift card so my box will be free to me. If the coupons are mailed from Portland, I'll have mine Tuesday or Wednesday.

CC will probably add the CECB back once people start showing up at the store with coupons in hand.

I hate to say it, but I hope the OTA digital signals that I will get with the new boxes are missing a few channels or requires regular re-adjustment/re-tuning in my area....haven't had cable, while saving for our new home....now that we are moved in, this would help convince the Mrs. that we need to go ahead and get D*... :)

I'd like to know if they're RoHS or not. I'm hoping not really what with having to deal with hairline cracks in solder joints and other problems associated with non-lead solders.

I'm all for the ideal of RoHS but until there is a lead solder replacement that is at least as good it's a waste since devices will fail much more often. They're close but not close enough.

I'd like to know if they're RoHS or not. I'm hoping not really what with having to deal with hairline cracks in solder joints and other problems associated with non-lead solders.


Why would they be, none of the CECBs are going to Europe.

I have a Zenith SAT 520 with QAM which is apparently analog, since I can hook up an antenna to the cable jack on the receiver and scan for channels and some analog TV signals show up as "cable".
Will the QAM on these newer receivers be a "digital" form of QAM?

I have a Zenith SAT 520 with QAM which is apparently analog, since I can hook up an antenna to the cable jack on the receiver and scan for channels and some analog TV signals show up as "cable".
Will the QAM on these newer receivers be a "digital" form of QAM?
There will be no QAM tuners in the "coupon eligible converter boxes".

The samsung HDTV tuner, and most DVD recorders with an ATSC tuner also have a QAM tuner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_recorder (scroll down to the chart, and there is a column for QAM tuners)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAM_tuner

I'd like to know if they're RoHS or not...
I'm all for the ideal of RoHS but until there is a lead solder replacement that is at least as good it's a waste since devices will fail much more often. They're close but not close enough.

Why would they be, none of the CECBs are going to Europe.

They may not have a choice. Many ICs are available only in lead-free ball-grid array packages. Generally, if the PCB contains one lead-free BGA, the entire board must be lead free. The reason is the BGA's "pins" are made of solder, and lead-free solder melts at a different temperature than lead solder.

"Analog form of QAM"? Not for tv, there isn't. The only analog use of QAM is Am Stereo radio. Motorola C-QUAM, to be more precise.

The NTIA approved "Digital Stream" Set Top Box is supposed to have QAM. I am in general curious as to whether any ATSC only tuner box will have a QAM that is digital or will it still be analog.

The NTIA approved "Digital Stream" Set Top Box is supposed to have QAM.

The South Korean version of the "Digital Stream" has QAM but it isn't yet known whether that feature is disabled or active on the U.S. box.

The QAM function would likely be in the tuner boxes but disabled, so they would qualify as a "coupon" converter.

It would appear that the companies are now concentrating on manufacturing as many "coupon" boxes as their production capacity will allow.

When the requiirement is fulfilled, it appears very likely that QAM enabled boxes will be made available for about the same price but not coupon eligible.

The demand will be there especially with the cable TV deadline for elimination of the old analog data stream by 2012

Some of the coupon eligible boxes have upgradable firmware via a RS232 port or other means. This could mean QAM or other functionalities can be added at a future date with a firmware update. Should we consider the ability of a coupon eligible box to be firmware upgradable as an important feature?

Some of the coupon eligible boxes have upgradable firmware via a RS232 port or other means. This could mean QAM or other functionalities can be added at a future date with a firmware update. Should we consider the ability of a coupon eligible box to be firmware upgradable as an important feature?

I'd consider it fairly important either way. It's not like these specific boxes have been around a long time with tons of in the field QA testing and bug reports.

The ability to hack firmware to enable hidden functions or features is cool and all but it's much more important that I'm able to update the box if they royally screwed something up before shipping.

The DTV2009 site says coupons will be mailed at the end of the month.

Circuit City pulled the converter box from their website...

:): As of 2/14/08 the Zenith DTT900 is NOW listed on the Circuit City web site. ($59.99)

"Available soon" :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: BTW, just noticed that Circuit city will be hosting a "live event" Digital TV Transition Forum, Feb. 19th, 7-7:30pm ET

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/genericContent.do?oid=204359

Can anyone make a comment if the Zenith DTT900 will have analog passthrough ? On the Radio Shack site, someone said it did, but I trust this site farther regarding things like this.

Looks like the Magnavox and Philco are clones:

Philco user manual:
http://www.funai-corp.com/6pdf/om/TB100HH9.pdf
This unit is supposed to have an RF pass through. This unit is listed on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Philco-TB100HH9-D-A-Converter/dp/B000YC8NYY******pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1203044252&sr=8-1


Magnavox user manual:
http://www.funai-corp.com/6pdf/om/TB100MW9.pdf
This is the non-RF pass through version available at some Walmarts right now.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8283870

Just got a newsletter from solidsignal.com that says they are now set up to accept the coupons online. Currently, they only carry the Sansonic FT-300RT and Channel Master CM-7000 though.

:): As of 2/14/08 the Zenith DTT900 is NOW listed on the Circuit City web site. ($59.99)

"Available soon" :rolleyes:

CC web site now lists the DTT900 as "in stock" in ALL stores in my area. :D Now if I only had that darn coupon. :mad:

As I understand it, the purpose of coupon-eligible converters is to maintain the same functionality for owners of analog-only sets that they've always had via the set's internal NTSC tuner, but now within the ATSC realm.

It may sound primitive to us, but I'd bet the vast majority of the intended buyers for these converters currently have a simple OTA antenna feed running straight to the TV's RF input. Others run OTA into their VCR tuner, with a second coax link from the VCR's RF output to the TV. (The fact that CECB's are required to have an RF (ch 3/4) modulator appears to confirm this.) Since MTS stereo has been included in TVs and VCR tuners for many years, customers can currently view and record OTA with stereo audio using nothing but these basic RF connections.

That's why I find it so odd that CECB's are not required to deliver MTS stereo via their RF modulator output. Without this, people with RF-only connections completely lose their stereo sound unless they can figure out how to use the more complex composite + RCA audio connections instead -- and that assumes their TV even has these inputs. A lot of these folks have trouble just setting their VCR so it's not flashing "12:00" -- can you imagine trying to teach them about composite video, L/R RCA audio connections, and how to setup their TVs and VCRs to view those inputs instead of the NTSC tuner?

Rob
Rob, you'd be suprised how many of the 10 year-old grandchildren of these folks that can't set the time on their TV or VCR can set up any kind of electronics without batting an eye. Regards

Whodart

Can anyone make a comment if the Zenith DTT900 will have analog passthrough ? On the Radio Shack site, someone said it did, but I trust this site farther regarding things like this.

Hi Scooper. Here's the url http://www.zenith.com/dtv/dtt900.html
spex don't show RF passthru. Regards

Whodart

I just hope the TR-40's available within the time limit for my coupons. That's really the only one I'm interested at this stage, because of it's features.

Wish I'd have held off a little on ordering them.

I just got back from a shopping trip, decided to take a look inside my closest Radio Shack - they had about 10-12 of the Digital Stream DTX9900 converters sitting out, price $59.99 . No, I didn't pick one up for testing, as I want one of the 2 Philco's or the Echostar units as my first choices. The sales associate said they got them and put them out yesterday.

From looking at the box - no s-video, but the other standard outputs are there. The box said nothing about analog passthrough, but that is something that has to be tested for a final answer.

I'd like to order the TR-40 as well.
Here's a link to an article that was posted in another forum about changes some people in congress want made to the coupon program:
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6532079.html
Looks like I'll have to complain to my congressman later this year if my coupons expire before the TR-40 becomes available...

I just hope the TR-40's available within the time limit for my coupons. That's really the only one I'm interested at this stage, because of it's features.

Wish I'd have held off a little on ordering them.According to EZDigitalTV.com, the following are the only reported features:

- Up to a seven-day electronic programming guide (EPG)
- Program search
- Parental locks
- VCR auto-tune timers
- MSRP of $39.95
- RF analog pass-through

http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/EchoStar_TR-40.html

Which features of the TR-40 make it uniquely interesting to you?

Avio

I just got back from a shopping trip, decided to take a look inside my closest Radio Shack - they had about 10-12 of the Digital Stream DTX9900 converters sitting out, price $59.99 . No, I didn't pick one up for testing, as I want one of the 2 Philco's or the Echostar units as my first choices. The sales associate said they got them and put them out yesterday.

From looking at the box - no s-video, but the other standard outputs are there. The box said nothing about analog passthrough, but that is something that has to be tested for a final answer.

They had the TR-40 at Radioshack? I thought they were delayed till June.

The TR-40 has TV Guide's EPG. It doesn't use a station's PSIP. The EPG would be worth something. That and it's cheap. I don't know if the ATSC decoder is any good. Somebody will have to open it up.

Pluses of the Echostar unit -
#1 - Analog passthrough
#2 - VCR timers
#3 - TV Guide
#4 - cheaper (although that isn't really a factor)

I expect it's tuner to be pretty decent, if they are using the same tuner chips as are in their DBS /OTA receivers.

They had the TR-40 at Radioshack? I thought they were delayed till June.

NO !

I was commenting that Radio Shack had the DTX9900 in stock, but I'm holding out for a TR40.

They had the TR-40 ... ? I thought they were delayed till June.For those interested in the availability of the EchoStar, I found this clip at the bottom of a 2/13/2008 Denver Post article:

EchoStar said its $39.99 TR-40 digital converter box will go on sale in limited quantities beginning in March on its website. Larger quantities will be available in June or July and might be available at some stores. EchoStar recommends consumers wait until May to apply for the coupon. For more information, e-mail EchoStar at tr40@slingmedia.com.

Full Story:

Viewers in the dark on digital TV
By Kimberly S. Johnson
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 02/13/2008 11:21:04 PM MST
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_8254258

Avio

:confused: Just wondering what the "VCR timer" feature of the converter box really is. Does it mean that the box will switch channels at a specific time/day so the VCR can (time) record multiple channels using the box? Just curious. :cool:

That's the general definition....

That's the general definition....

That's a cool feature. Probably why it uses the (7-day?) TV Guide EPG. hmmm... maybe I'll wait for the Echostar box, as it seems to be the only one with VCR timers. :p hmmm.... on second thought, I can't wait till May. lol.

Yeah, maybe the government shouldn't be mailing out the coupons yet, until the model that people really want is available. More government BS. My coupons will be coming soon, I didn't know about this Echostar model. I'm sure the government did, they had to approve it.

Are you joking?? It's not their job to make sure you get the box with the best features. They just mail out the coupons when you ask for them...

I'm not even counting on the coupons to be released or get to us early orderers until after they actually said. Since when has the Govt. ever been on time with anything, except when it benefits them?

Yeah, maybe the government shouldn't be mailing out the coupons yet, until the model that people really want is available. More government BS. My coupons will be coming soon, I didn't know about this Echostar model. I'm sure the government did, they had to approve it.

If you are referring to the VCR timer feature on this Echostar model, it was posted here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12864721&postcount=8 almost a month ago.

Steve

Are you joking?? It's not their job to make sure you get the box with the best features. They just mail out the coupons when you ask for them...

Wrong, the date for the coupon program started with new year, no relationship to product. BUT they said they would not actually send the coupons until there was product available. It has nothing to do with what the consumer asked for. I'm just saying wait a little longer until more product is available.

If you are referring to the VCR timer feature on this Echostar model, it was posted here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...21&postcount=8 almost a month ago.

Wrong, I had my request in on Jan. 2. You either get request in early or lose out.

Wrong, the date for the coupon program started with new year, no relationship to product. BUT they said they would not actually send the coupons until there was product available. It has nothing to do with what the consumer asked for. I'm just saying wait a little longer until more product is available.


Wrong, I had my request in on Jan. 2. You either get request in early or lose out.

Per this article http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-the-echostar-tr-40-and-tr-50-converter-boxes/ dated Jan. 7, 2008.....

"First up, there's the TR-40 box with a built-in 7-day EPG, program search functions and VCR auto-tune timers. This device will be coming to you under both the EchoStar and Sling Media monikers for a penny under your $40 coupon; expect it in March."

"Expect it in March." Why isn't Echostar delivering its product in a timely fashion as stated? This is the government's fault? It's the government's fault because it appears that they are going to do exactly what they stated they would do (mailing coupons in mid to late Feb.)???

Steve

What are you talking about? I had my request in Jan. 2. Who knew about the Echostar on Jan. 2? The government for sure did, they probably knew about it last year. They had to approve it for the program.

The government admitted lack of product when they started the program on Jan. 2. For that reason they said they would intentionally delay sending the coupons until product is available in common retail outlets.

I'm just saying since some of the product (the better product) is a little delayed what is the harm in having the government hold the coupons back a little while longer so that everybody has a chance at the better product prior to the 90 days expiration. Don't change the expiration policy or time-out, just hold the coupons back a little while longer.

That isn't such a big deal.

This whole deal has been one screw-up after another. In fact the government person in charge of this program quit last year due to the heat he was getting. Google it.

The most expensive box talked about here is $20 after the coupon..
I guess some people just want to complain. :)

Not to mention their website can't even handle the traffic. Just as soon as Yahoo posts this story on their page today, you can't even get to the www.dtv2009.gov most of the time.

$20 is $20, I want the one for $39. I want the best tuner, multi-path rejection, best guide, you name it. I am about 6 miles from the antennas and I fight multi-path with a nice Dvico USB tuner all the time. Sitting in here watching Nascar and re-adjusted one of the best Antennasdirect DB-2 indoor/outdoor bow-tie antennas that you can get.

If I have so many problems with the trees (no leaves on them) and the high winds today, think about those living 100 miles from the stations that they pull now on analog. Yes my 92+ yr. grandmother in-law has such a setup and I'm trying to make sure she can still watch TV next year without it costing me anything (except for too much time trying to explain it to you).

I'll give you my address and you can send me the $40, $20 x 2. If you prefer.

Well, bdfox18doe seems to have more of a brain (and a heart) than most of these complainers so far.

As far as I'm concerned, nobody should be applying for any coupons unless they're older (55+; I'm not), OTA-only (I'm not), on Social Security or other government assistance (I'm not), and/or living paycheck-to-paycheck or otherwise poor (again, I'm not). It's those people that need these coupons the most, and if it's a matter of "request in early or miss out", what does that say about those that won't find out until it's too late? Face it, most of those that need these coupons the most won't find out until late(r?) in the game.

Most of the people who have applied so far for these coupons earn more than enough to put up the $40 straight for the Echostar box whenever it's available; they just want something for nothing, and if it means that the coupons run out before the people who are the most disadvantaged find out about it, their problem.

I'm shocked at the selfishness of some of you, but really, should I be?

I'm more interested in the Sling HD-DVR that certainly isn't anywhere close to being eligible for the coupon program. I don't care, since ten years from now, it'll have more viable of a use than these convertor boxes, anyway, as TVs get slowly replaced a la VHF-tuner-only TVs. I won't apply for coupons, and neither will anyone in my family, best I know and/or will recommend (with the exception of maybe one family that doesn't even watch that much broadcast TV, and has expressed lack of interest in watching further). Better one or two more deserving people get them instead of me.

The biggest controversy with the analog shutoff won't be the "I didn't know this was coming" factor. It's that at this rate, it'll be the "I can't afford these boxes because the government ran out of coupons!" factor.

The biggest controversy with the analog shutoff won't be the "I didn't know this was coming" factor. It's that at this rate, it'll be the "I can't afford these boxes because the government ran out of coupons!" factor.

Mike is 100% correct here.
And,those you mention will also be the ones saying: "I can't afford the $10 monthly basic package that the cable lady told me was the ONLY way I could get TV now" :rolleyes:

Status as of today : 2/17/2008 (direct from http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html )

Total accepted applications 2,498,392
Coupons ordered 4,732,276
Coupons ordered in dollars $189,291,040.00
Applications volume last 24 hours 21,353
Coupons volume last 24 hours 40,475
Certified retailers / Total outlets 250 / 15,000
Certified Converter Boxes 35

With them numbers - I'm not really going to worry too much.

Who are you talking about Mike? Read my post, I'm talking about my grandmother here, so you better not be talking about me.

The rest of your comments are your opinion, the rules have been stated and those are the rules. Some of us do the stuff for our over 55 yr. old relatives. And even then as she lives so far away from the stations, it may not even work anyway.

If your not talking about me then disregard. I can only assume as you posted right below me.

The biggest controversy with the analog shutoff won't be the "I didn't know this was coming" factor. It's that at this rate, it'll be the "I can't afford these boxes because the government ran out of coupons!" factor.Naw, they'll just do like they do with money - print more. :cool:

From the FAQ at the govt web site:

7.
Are all consumers eligible for the coupon program?
Yes, but supplies are limited. There are 22.25 million coupons available to all U.S. households. Once those coupons have been used, there are an additional 11.25 million coupons available only to households that solely receive their TV broadcasts over-the-air using an antenna. Households with TVs connected to cable, satellite or other pay TV service are not eligible for this second batch of coupons. Consumers can apply for coupons until March 31, 2009, or until the funds are exhausted.

We should be OK for now. I wonder how much immigrant-bashing there will be in early 2009 by less well-off Americans of immigrants who rely on OTA requesting coupons, since the program does not have any provision for verifying that a member of the recipient household is a legal resident or citizen .

Hmmmm. I find that the majority of most anti-illegal immigration sentiment is about fairness, and not about "bashing" per se.

Anyway, no matter what the taxpayers may think or want, the illegals are consumers, too, and the Govt. views this as an investment in the economy on a huge scale, I'm sure. And that's what matters most to them, so good luck to anyone who wants to complain.

Wrong, the date for the coupon program started with new year, no relationship to product. BUT they said they would not actually send the coupons until there was product available. It has nothing to do with what the consumer asked for. I'm just saying wait a little longer until more product is available.

I realize that. And they did just what they said. They should be mailing the coupons in the next few days as there are several boxes on store shelves now. If you wanted a box with more features, you should have waited a few months before applying for your coupon(s). With technology, something better is always around the corner. Early adopters always get screwed, that's the way it is. It would be ridiculous for the government to delay the mailing of everyone else's coupons to make sure you get the box with better features.

Waiting a few months would mean you'd be SOL, the coupons would be gone. I think that's kind of the reason they give you 90 days (3 months) in which to redeem them.

Just order your coupons and wait a month or two for your favorite box to pop on the market.

why is there a expiration date in the first place - if so why does it have to be 3 months how about until digital switch-over date next year.

why is there a expiration date in the first place - if so why does it have to be 3 months how about until digital switch-over date next year.

So "unused" funds can be reallocated quickly. Probably to Iraq or something. It's how governments work.

why is there a expiration date in the first place - if so why does it have to be 3 months how about until digital switch-over date next year.

I can't seem to find the link to the article, but I read last week there is talk of letting people re-apply if their coupon goes unused. The article also mentioned IBM as the company tracking all the coupons.

Contact your Representitive, if enough people have concerns, the FCC will have to do something.

Getting back on the subject, I've read a favorable review over on the Insignia thread, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990489

...but, I am wondering if anyone has a done a comparison with their new converter box and the Samsung HDTV tuner (or the On Air GT) in regards to (overcoming) high multi-path interference.

Has anyone else noticed that most of the "prestige brand" TV manufacturers - Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Toshiba, Sharp - are NOT offering CECBs?

These companies' absence from the CECB vendors is ironic since they peddled millions of NTSC-only SD TVs right up until 2007, often labeled as having "digital" tuning. These firms also peddled hundreds of thousands of "HD Ready" HD TVs lacking an ATSC tuner.

Yeah, I've noticed. They probably don't want to release anything that will directly compete with their own, lame-a$$ed, SD ATSC DVD recorders.

Well, bdfox18doe seems to have more of a brain (and a heart) than most of these complainers so far.

As far as I'm concerned, nobody should be applying for any coupons unless they're older (55+; I'm not), OTA-only (I'm not), on Social Security or other government assistance (I'm not), and/or living paycheck-to-paycheck or otherwise poor (again, I'm not). It's those people that need these coupons the most, and if it's a matter of "request in early or miss out", what does that say about those that won't find out until it's too late? Face it, most of those that need these coupons the most won't find out until late(r?) in the game.

Most of the people who have applied so far for these coupons earn more than enough to put up the $40 straight for the Echostar box whenever it's available; they just want something for nothing, and if it means that the coupons run out before the people who are the most disadvantaged find out about it, their problem.

I'm shocked at the selfishness of some of you, but really, should I be?

I'm more interested in the Sling HD-DVR that certainly isn't anywhere close to being eligible for the coupon program. I don't care, since ten years from now, it'll have more viable of a use than these convertor boxes, anyway, as TVs get slowly replaced a la VHF-tuner-only TVs. I won't apply for coupons, and neither will anyone in my family, best I know and/or will recommend (with the exception of maybe one family that doesn't even watch that much broadcast TV, and has expressed lack of interest in watching further). Better one or two more deserving people get them instead of me.

The biggest controversy with the analog shutoff won't be the "I didn't know this was coming" factor. It's that at this rate, it'll be the "I can't afford these boxes because the government ran out of coupons!" factor.

I disagree. The coupon program for the digital transition has nothing to do with income based assistance and I don't think it should be. The government is making a boatload of money from the auction of the public radio spectrum that will be vacated during the digital TV transition. While it's likely that the households that watch tv exclusively over the air are largely older folks on fixed incomes and low income households, there are many folks, such as myself, that can afford pay service but still watch TV over the air exclusively and will be inconvenienced by this transition. The government, the primary beneficiary of the transition, should be obligated to do what they can to assist everyone that will be inconvenienced by the transition, regardless of income.

That being said, I don't think the biggest controversy in this transition will be the government running out of coupons. Those who need the coupons the most will likely qualify for coupons in the second allocation reserved exclusively for OTA households.

The biggest controversy that will occur will be with those who are currently watching a marginal analog signal using rabbit ears or an old rooftop antenna. They are the real losers in the transition as they will likely have to spend a significant amount of money to upgrade their antenna system just to get the TV stations they previously had.

If this was talked about earlier, I missed finding it - what about those who pay for an analog service from Comcast, for example, and only have analog sets? Is it up to the cable provider to supply an analog signal over the cable or would a converter box be needed?

I just spoke to someone at Digital Stream and he clarified for me that none of their coupon-eligible boxes will support QAM because the NTIA does not allow QAM in the certified boxes.

He said they sent a huge shipment of their DTX9900 boxes to Radio Shack who has begun selling them in stores. However, I can't find the DTX9900 on the Digital Stream web site. He said that Radio Shack is selling them but they still haven't added them to the Radio Shack web site.

He also kind of said (implied) that the D2A1D10 and D2A1D20 boxes won't even be available any more, which is odd, because they show them on the Digital Stream web site and list them as "New". This remains to be seen.

One final thing - no S-Video on these models. He asked why I would even care about S-video. I said because it is better quality than composite. He said S-video would only be "slightly better". I agreed but said some people including me would use S-video if it was available.

csaag,

The converter box is intended to be exclusively for OTA broadcasts. If you have cable/satellite, your older TV will be fine. The cable box itself will still transmit to you the proper analog signal.

I just thought I'd point out that the $20 Billion the goverment will make selling newly available VHF/UHF spectrum, makes the $200 Million for $40 coupons (half of which will expire before they are ever used) a reasonable expense, not a waste of taxpayer dollars, or a gouge by some unworthy consumers. Obviously, if some were to abuse the system by redeeming a lot of coupon discounted boxes and selling them to Canadians at full price, that would be disgusting. Critics of coupon users should also bare in mind that many who will actually use them, must bare the additional expense of upgrading their antennas as well, for which the government has no rebate. I'm currently planning the DTV over the air upgrade for several relatives in my family, and even after the rebate, it will set each of them back on average over $110 once the better UHF antenna and amplifiers are factored in. So they are paying a $110 "tax" so the government can "earn" another $20 Billion on an asset that belongs to us all. this is not to mention the FREE windfall most over the air broadcasters are getting from additional side channels they can broadcast more content, and generate more advertising revenue. so at least I don't feel at all guilty using a $40 coupon, even though I and my family members can easily afford not to. I'm just glad we don't all have to throw out our perfectly good Analog tuning TV's and VCR's - boy would that be a terrible waste of landfill space...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, back on topic; I also have a Multicast concern as I'm not only less than 8 miles away from broadcast towers, but I'm in a urban valley surrounded by buildings taller than my roof! someone mentioned the LG DT111D chipset as being better at handling Multicast antenna interference. how does one substantiate that claim? and what else should I be looking for in a converter box if Multicast is a problem. In order to combat this on the antenna side, I'll be getting something Directional, possibly with a rotor. those "smartantenna" combinations sound nice, but their high price and lack of availability has forced me to look elsewhere.

The biggest controversy that will occur will be with those who are currently watching a marginal analog signal using rabbit ears or an old rooftop antenna. They are the real losers in the transition as they will likely have to spend a significant amount of money to upgrade their antenna system just to get the TV stations they previously had.

Agreed. Where I live, (Western Washington state), there are alot of people who live far from the broadcast towers, behind hills and mountains, that rely on analog OTA. IMHO, they stand little chance of digital reception since it's far more "line of sight" than the current analog signals. These people will have no choice but to go to cable (if available) or satellite (again, if available) or have no TV.

OK, back on topic; I also have a Multicast concern as I'm not only less than 8 miles away from broadcast towers, but I'm in a urban valley surrounded by buildings taller than my roof! someone mentioned the LG DT111D chipset as being better at handling Multicast antenna interference. how does one substantiate that claim? and what else should I be looking for in a converter box if Multicast is a problem. In order to combat this on the antenna side, I'll be getting something Directional, possibly with a rotor. those "smartantenna" combinations sound nice, but their high price and lack of availability has forced me to look elsewhere.

FWIW, I've been testing two of the new coupon-eligible receivers and I can confirm that these new DTV receivers are much better in handling multipath (I believe this is what you were referring to) than older units. I've owned a number of STBs over the past six years and these new ones are really good. I have local/semi-local stations anywhere from 3 miles, 5.5 miles, 17 miles and even 37 miles and DTV reception with these units is quite good. These units are much more forgiving with strong/weak signals, interference and multipath issues.

Steve

OK, back on topic; I also have a Multicast concern as I'm not only less than 8 miles away from broadcast towers, but I'm in a urban valley surrounded by buildings taller than my roof! someone mentioned the LG DT111D chipset as being better at handling Multicast antenna interference. how does one substantiate that claim? and what else should I be looking for in a converter box if Multicast is a problem. In order to combat this on the antenna side, I'll be getting something Directional, possibly with a rotor. those "smartantenna" combinations sound nice, but their high price and lack of availability has forced me to look elsewhere.Any 6th, or even 5th generation chip does a pretty good job at handling multipath. But go for a 6th if you can find it, because it should be at least slightly better, if not moreso.

As far as an antenna, will your stations be all UHF, or will some be in the hi-VHF range?

As far as an antenna, will your stations be all UHF, or will some be in the hi-VHF range?

right; multiPATH :rolleyes:
so later generation boxes will
do a better job, not just LG.

my 2,4,5 will be moving to UHF
but 7,9,11,13 will still require
some upper range VHF help.

If you know of other threads discussing similar;
multipath, directional, short distance, outdoor
antenna issues, you can provide links I may not
ordinarily see during a search, however I do
not want to risk hijacking this thread further.

This pure converter box topic is invaluable.
I feel sorry for the managers of this sight
who may have to shop around for a faster
host, once this type of informative thread
burns up all the page-hits they can handle.

FWIW, I've been testing two of the new coupon-eligible receivers and I can confirm that these new DTV receivers are much better in handling multipath (I believe this is what you were referring to) than older units. I've owned a number of STBs over the past six years and these new ones are really good. I have local/semi-local stations anywhere from 3 miles, 5.5 miles, 17 miles and even 37 miles and DTV reception with these units is quite good. These units are much more forgiving with strong/weak signals, interference and multipath issues.

Steve

which boxes have you tested?

which boxes have you tested?

you can see goldrich's comparison comments on this thread;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13109313
it's a relief to know that most recent generation of converters
are doing a much better job at handling multipath signals.

So of the major stores BB, CC, Wamart, and RS is there one to get that's better then the rest or one to avoid?

So of the major stores BB, CC, Wamart, and RS is there one to get that's better then the rest or one to avoid?

at the risk of sounding sarcastic - that's what we are all here to figure out :rolleyes:

since the latest generation of these boxes are only now making it to store shelves in time for the March'08 mailing of $40 coupons, you can expect this and other threads to fill up with more first hand feedback in the coming Months. so I would order a coupon now, but not plan on actually using it till April at the earliest. by then we should have a more definitive answer to your global question especially with the wide variety of environments and applications that various members here will apply their boxes to.

in the end, they may all end up being pretty much the same, with the only distinction being extra beeps and whistles like SVHS outputs, smartantenna support, or VCR Timers.

Packeteers is right on - pretty good for a newby ! :D

All i want to find out is which stores will carry ones that have s-video or will those types have too be ordered from obscure website. Everything I read so far points to all the retail stores just carrying the cheapest models.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Hef View Post
So of the major stores BB, CC, Wamart, and RS is there one to get that's better then the rest or one to avoid?

at the risk of sounding sarcastic - that's what we are all here to figure out :rolleyes:

Well it couldn't be a better place to post my question then!


Well having read one thread after I posted, it seems the Insgnia and Zenith are using the same chip. Preliminary reports (from this one thread,http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13109313) on the Insignia seem to be good.

If this was talked about earlier, I missed finding it - what about those who pay for an analog service from Comcast, for example, and only have analog sets? Is it up to the cable provider to supply an analog signal over the cable or would a converter box be needed?

Nothing will change at the 2/2009 transition - you'll still get analog versions, if you get any analog channels at all from cable.

The cable box itself will still transmit to you the proper analog signal.


I don't have a cable box with my Comcast analog service. The cable just goes right to my analog TV. Does this means then that I'd need a cable box?

. Does this means then that I'd need a cable box?

No, you will notice no change.

I don't have a cable box with my Comcast analog service. The cable just goes right to my analog TV. Does this means then that I'd need a cable box?

Only when Comcast tells you that you need one.

If you know of other threads discussing similar;
multipath, directional, short distance, outdoor
antenna issues, you can provide links I may not
ordinarily see during a search, however I do
not want to risk hijacking this thread further.

This pure converter box topic is invaluable.
I feel sorry for the managers of this sight
who may have to shop around for a faster
host, once this type of informative thread
burns up all the page-hits they can handle.


Look in this forum for your local area discussion threads.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45

And be prepared for a blizzard of "one post Johnnys" asking about all things DTV....

And be prepared for a blizzard of "one post Johnnys" asking about all things DTV....

The Newbie Motto: Post First, Think Second, Read Third.......:rolleyes:

Look in this forum for your local area discussion threads.

all the New York threads appears to be for CableTV based HDTV/DTV
reception. good think I figured out what OTA means on this forum :rolleyes:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=275729
I may be a newbie here, but I'm a veteran of this kind of idea medium.

Whats going to happen when or if they change to mpeg -4 codec with these boxes in the future?

Everyone would have to get new boxes. But don't worry, that's not going to happen for a LONG time. We're far to deep in MPEG2 equipment to go MPEG4 now...

is the picture quality of these boxes identical to the downrezzed 480i output from a HD box, such as the Radio Shack Accurian, or is it not as good?

The PQ from all of the DVD recorder's ATSC tuners I've seen so far is slightly less detailed on my 32" analog set than from a standalone, downconverted HD tuner. With a standalone HD tuner at 480i either directly from the box, or through an HDD/DVD recorder (either from a recording or the pass-through signal) displayed on my 50" 768p plasma, the PQ's noticably better than from a recorder's internal SD ATSC tuner.

I'd say on anything larger than a 37" HD display, it almost for sure won't look as good. On a 36" or under analog set (or 26" or under HD set), you might not notice too much of a difference (depending on your eyesight and the distance away from the set, too, of course) - although there can be slight differences between tuners - my Accurian isn't as sharp and detailed, or as rich in color, as my Sony DVR or Samsung tuner on either type of set.

But generally speaking, I'm gonna say no - unless some of these tuners are better looking than the ones in the DVD recorders.

No, you will notice no change.

I think at a minimum Comcast and other cable cos will use the OTA analog shutdown as an excuse to shutdwon some of the analog chs on cable. They've been doing that with some chs for some time and the 2/17/09 date will be real convenient to cut out a big chunk of the analog left. I have a strong feeling you will notice something around that date. I also have a feeling in the coming months you'll find some of these boxes are capable of handling cable QAM chs, either out of the box or with a hack.

As others have mentioned - wait till people get them and start testing in earnest before jumping in.

Which converter boxes have a built-in display for the channel number at a minimum? Is this deemed not important? So far it seems like it might be impossible to not record the box's OSD.

I think at a minimum Comcast and other cable cos will use the OTA analog shutdown as an excuse to shutdwon some of the analog chs on cable. .

TWC here says they will maintain analog channels for many more years. If it were me, I'd drop all analog except 2 thru 22..

thanks Rammitinski, there may not be any point in getting a box with s-video if the pq is fairly mediocre anyway.

smpowell, would it be possible to indicate which CECBs are offering digital closed captioning on your chart? Early indications seem to indicate that some of them might only pass through the analog CCs instead of decoding analag and digital captions within the CECB.

Gov't spec's require the boxes to display closed captioning.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf

See page 6, #17.

They only have ATSC, digital tuners, they don't recognize the NTSC, analog signal.

smpowell, would it be possible to indicate which CECBs are offering digital closed captioning on your chart? Early indications are that seems some of them might only pass through the analog CCs instead of decoding analag and digital captions within the CECB.

If you want to collect the data, I can add it to the spreadsheet.

I've received comments that the Insignia has a nice signal strength meter and the Zenith doesn't.

I thought the electronics were the same on these models. Can anyone confirm that the display is different?

These are various comments that I've collected about these boxes as of 2/20/09:

Digital Stream DTX-9900 ATSC D2A

"Typical cheap, small, remote," bdfox18doe
Plastic case with some large (ventalation?) holes on top but noware else. (Drill inlet holes on bottom after warrenty expires?) smpowell

Magnavox TB100MW9

"Can manually enter true RF channel number" goldrich
"Seems to be very user friendly." goldrich
"Remote doesn't fit the hand very well" "Odd shaped remote with small buttons" bdfox18doe
"Does not have any buttons on the STB to change the channel" beachbum_50
No change buttons on converter, remote only ?
Plastic case with a very few small (ventalation?) holes on back & bottom (Drill more holes after warrenty expires?) smpowell


RCA DTA 800B

"unit is exceedingly easy to program and control. Sensistivity is good " PinkSplice
"auto-scan will delete previous channels... " drla
"can't manually choose an RF channel that wasn't picked up by auto-scan" drla
"Channel surfing.....very large and stays up for a couple of seconds. Quiet annoying" drla


RjTECH RJ-900ATSC

Not on CECB list. Includes QAM, or maybe it doesn't. Who knows for sure?

Zenith DTT900 / Insignia NS-DXA1

"EZ Add." ...can scan for stations several times...and not lose previously found stations" John Shutt
"can abuse the antenna position without losing video lock" John Shutt
"much better with strong local signals and/or multipath issues than my various older STBs" goldrich
"dedicated button labeled "SIGNAL." ...give you a bar graph...audio beeping" John Shutt
"will power on/off the TV and control the volume" goldrich
"closed captioning....usability of the menu activated by the CC button...Very very poor" dmulvany


Magnavox TB100MW9 vs Insignia NS-DXA1
http://www.wtfda.info/showthread.php?t=1893

Insignia
Well ventilated metal case
"signal meter functions much better"


Magnavox
Poorly ventilated plastic case

Gov't spec's require the boxes to display closed captioning.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf

See page 6, #17.


I had read a while ago that digital closed captioning wasn't necessarily a feature of all the coupon-eligible boxes, but I hope that's incorrect.


They only have ATSC, digital tuners, they don't recognize the NTSC, analog signal.

TV stations are required to transmit both digital and analog captions on their digital channels. Thus there can be automatic pass-through of analog CC data to an analog TV from the converter box, or the digital or analog captions can be decoded through the converter box itself. My understanding is that a 708 decoder also is supposed to be able to decode 608 captions as well. Thus one doesn't have to have an NTSC tuner to pick up the analog captions.

The Insignia converter box decodes both digital and analog captions.

I've set up a separate thread on "Evaluating digital-to-analog converter boxes for users of captioning" at
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=997022

I provided an evaluation of the Insignia's analog and digital captioning there along with pictures.

I've received comments that the Insignia has a nice signal strength meter and the Zenith doesn't.

I thought the electronics were the same on these models. Can anyone confirm that the display is different?

The guts can be identical with different firmware, which can make them behave differently in more than just the UI. Crappy firmware could make one shine while the other stinks.

RjTECH RJ-900ATSC Not CECB. Includes QAM.


I don't recall it doing QAM.. It appears to be identical to the Mustek.

I don't recall it doing QAM.. It appears to be identical to the Mustek.

The box is not on the rjtech or mustek sites, in fact I can find no boxes on either. Just 404s and blank pages. According to a NewEgg review (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882107064) it does *not* do QAM, someone apparently got confused because a cable operator was sending the 8VSB signal through the cable probably unaltered.

I'm surprised the Smart Antenna Input on the RjTECH RJ-900ATSC was not included as a bullet point feature on the box. I mean, why else would anyone buy it over other boxes :confused:

Critics Question FCC Plans for Rural TV

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080219/D8UTLBF00.html

"Fortunately for viewers of low-power programming, four of the 42 converter boxes that have been approved for sale allow for both analog and digital programming. According to the NTIA, they are: the Philco TB150HH9; the Philco TB100HH9; the ECHOSTAR TR-40 and the Magnavox TB-100MG9.

Martin's plan could get a vote at the next FCC meeting, scheduled for Feb. 26."

Yep the ones that are reported to have analog passthrough .....

What's the big deal? A two way splitter and a couple of coaxial cables will do the same thing.

You'll lose at least some signal strength.

Plus, I've already got too many wires and things hanging from the back of my equipment as it is.

Wouldn't internal spliiting do the same thing?

Depends on how it is implemented.

I assume that "analog captions" means captioning that is imbedded in the video signal and "digital captuions" means captioning that is in a dedicated part of the signal, independent from the video stream. Why not use more descrpitove terms like "imbedded captions" and "discrete captions". It seems wierd to use the term "analog captions", when 0% of a digital broadcast signal is analog.

Another thing I have been wondering about. I used to receive some digital cable channels that were retrnasmissions of analog broadcast stations (freaking Bright House has since scrambled them). The captions were left intact, but the V-chip information was lost. Why did the captions got digitized along with the video and come through intact, but the V-chip information didn't make it through the QAM modulator?

Only when Comcast tells you that you need one.

FWIW I emailed Comcast and they replied that I'd need a converter box.

I read that the Zenith DTT900 and Insignia clone have analog passthrough, at least with the units turned on.

And I remember reading that Samsung was going to make a coupon box. What ever happened with that?

FWIW I emailed Comcast and they replied that I'd need a converter box.Only in some areas. In the other ones, the CSR was clueless or gave the company line in the attempt to make a little more $$$$$ off of you.

I read that the Zenith DTT900 and Insignia clone have analog passthrough, at least with the units turned on.



I'm evaluating the Insignia now but don't see full analog passthrough through it. I've checked whether I could by using the RF cable and turning off the CB. It's possible some people might be confused by getting a few analog channels (which I've been able to get) because the cable itself can act as an antenna (it doesn't even need to be connected to the antenna). However I don't get all the analog channels that I can get through the Insignia, either with the device on or off.

I'm wondering if the Insignia might possibly have different firmware than the Zenith even though it looks alike on the surface.

I've received comments that the Insignia has a nice signal strength meter and the Zenith doesn't.

I thought the electronics were the same on these models. Can anyone confirm that the display is different?

I just received confirmation from a new owner of the Zenith DTT900 that the signal meter/OSD looks just like that of the Insignia NS-DXA1, per the posted pic below.

Steve

The Insignia CECB has frozen twice (within the first week of use) with a lot of text across the screen saying things such as "Undefined Instruction:1]....Unknown Fault Status, etc. The buttons on the remote control don't respond to anything. Anyone know what this phenomenon is called, and what causes it? (My HDTV freezes up now and then but never produces all this text.)

Here's a picture:

http://lh4.google.com/dana.mulvany/R70NgNoK26I/AAAAAAAAAX8/rV7UZpd2B9Q/SV400261-3.JPG?imgmax=512

Other problems I've noticed is that the audio and video went out of sync and the captions became delayed the longer the box was on.

:D, the box crashed. I can't believe it did that. This does not bode well for the Zenith box. New firmware could've fixed this but I don't think this unit can accept updates. If it's a widespread problem, LG's response will be interesting.

Other problems I've noticed is that the audio and video went out of sync and the captions became delayed the longer the box was on.

The problems could be related.

1. I noticed that the comparison table lists RS-232 as a feature on a couple of the boxes. What does this do for you ? Can you hookup a computer to it and tell it to go to channel 11, or to go letter-box to zoom or what ? Has anyone tried to use the RS-232 interface for anything ?
2. Is there a standard wire hookup for the smart antenna. Does this mean you need to run another wire up to the roof antenna ?
3. At a friend's house that has Directv, the picture froze during a heavy downpour. Is this same thing likely after Feb09 with all hi power TV ?
4. What is the criteria {cut-off point} for high vs low power TV.
5. How many low power stations can we expect will still be on the air broadcasting analog after Feb09 ?
6. Will aftermarket remotes work with these boxes. How can we find the " codes " to put in the remotes to keep from having one remote for the TV, one for the VCR, and one for the converter box ?

I'll answer what I've gathered so far which isn't much. If I'm mistaken someone please correct me!

1. I noticed that the comparison table lists RS-232 as a feature on a couple of the boxes. What does this do for you ? Can you hookup a computer to it and tell it to go to channel 11, or to go letter-box to zoom or what ? Has anyone tried to use the RS-232 interface for anything ?
I'm pretty certain it's only for updating the firmware on the box. USB might have been a better option, marked "UPDATE ONLY", IMO.

6. Will aftermarket remotes work with these boxes. How can we find the " codes " to put in the remotes to keep from having one remote for the TV, one for the VCR, and one for the converter box ?
I read somewhere that one of the requirements of the boxes was to use an already-existing remote code set. I forgot where I read it though. :(

The Insignia CECB has frozen twice (within the first week of use) with a lot of text across the screen saying things such as "Undefined Instruction:1]....Unknown Fault Status, etc. The buttons on the remote control don't respond to anything. Anyone know what this phenomenon is called, and what causes it? (My HDTV freezes up now and then but never produces all this text.)

Here's a picture:

http://lh4.google.com/dana.mulvany/R70NgNoK26I/AAAAAAAAAX8/rV7UZpd2B9Q/SV400261-3.JPG?imgmax=512

Other problems I've noticed is that the audio and video went out of sync and the captions became delayed the longer the box was on.

Does the box return to normal after a reboot (unplug/replug)? Could the problem be related to CC only; IOW has anyone had a problem when NOT displaying CC's?

Critics Question FCC Plans for Rural TV

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080219/D8UTLBF00.html

"Fortunately for viewers of low-power programming, four of the 42 converter boxes that have been approved for sale allow for both analog and digital programming. According to the NTIA, they are: the Philco TB150HH9; the Philco TB100HH9; the ECHOSTAR TR-40 and the Magnavox TB-100MG9.

Martin's plan could get a vote at the next FCC meeting, scheduled for Feb. 26."

Unfortunately for all CECB viewers ... It seem amazing that this only came up now, and only regarding rural TV. This affects all pre-2/19/09 users.

Without analog pass-through, John Q. Public chooses his analog cut-off date when he installs the CECB. As we all know, that digital ream isn't finalized yet, so it's quite possible to convert to digital before 2/19/09 and still lose a bunch of stations on that date when permanent frequency assignments are used. Added complexity, even if only to rescan channels, will leave somebody behind.

(Yes, I know how easy it is to get around all this, but John Q. doesn't; I'm talking about folks who think stretched 16:9 SD is HDTV...)

I can understand the FCC not wanting to give anything away, but this is a take-away. Anyone buying a new TV gets both NTSC and ATSC tuners; I get to surf both analog and digital channels at will on mine. I can see the CECB being an either/or proposition, ATSC when on, NTSC when off. No need for an NTSC tuner since, by expressed intent, it's connected to one. It's a simple concept; what possible justification is there for lack of pass-through-when-off!!

However, the rural TV issue is the only one the FCC will ever notice, and thus the only opportunity for more than a list of 4 devices, only one of which I find for sale in a Google search. (Yeah, I know it's still early ...)

Have fun,
Frank

PS This doesn't affect me personally; I live in upstate NY and I want one for experimentation with my rural in-law's OTA set-up (Wooster, OH). They're ripe for station loss, so I'm here for reports of box video performance. I want a reasonably-sensitive one for testing when we see them in a month. Yes, I will report what I find.

The Insignia CECB has frozen twice (within the first week of use) with a lot of text across the screen saying things such as "Undefined Instruction:1]....Unknown Fault Status, etc. The buttons on the remote control don't respond to anything. Anyone know what this phenomenon is called, and what causes it? (My HDTV freezes up now and then but never produces all this text.)

Here's a picture:

http://lh4.google.com/dana.mulvany/R70NgNoK26I/AAAAAAAAAX8/rV7UZpd2B9Q/SV400261-3.JPG?imgmax=512

Other problems I've noticed is that the audio and video went out of sync and the captions became delayed the longer the box was on.

It could be a bad box. I'd take it back for an exchange and see if you have the same problem with a different Insignia box.

I'm talking about folks who think stretched 16:9 SD is HDTV

Moving slightly OT: My favorite are the dopes who frequent Wally World who won't buy 16:9 SD DVDs (not that they know them by that name) because they believe the top and bottom of the movie has been cut out. I'm not kidding I stood by the movies for five minutes in disbelief listening to a pair of smelly people talk about it.

4. What is the criteria {cut-off point} for high vs low power TV.
5. How many low power stations can we expect will still be on the air broadcasting analog after Feb09 ?


Feb 09 is the cut-off date for full power stations. Low Power, and translators do not have a cut-off date (yet).

I havn't seen any figures on LP's shutting off analog also. The best thing to do is contact the station in your area. My area has one analog translator (W50CM), they are planning on shutting down the analog translator, as their digital translator is already up and running. My area also has 2 low power stations, but they are owned by the same company that has the full power CBS affiliate, so they are already multi-casting all the stations on one frequency.

Does the box return to normal after a reboot (unplug/replug)? Could the problem be related to CC only; IOW has anyone had a problem when NOT displaying CC's?
The Insignia did return to normal after I unplugged it (both times). (Pressing the power button on the box couldn't do anything when it had crashed.)

I read this yesterday, but can't remember where. sorry if this is a double post.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6533760.html

This is the one I was going to recommend for my parents, because it is supposed to be able to tune to a channel at a certain time for VCR recording.

Picked up 3 Maganvoxes at WalMart yesterday. Connected one up to my 10 yr old Samsung 20" tv (attic antenna), PQ is fine, & the best that that TV has probably ever seen. No crashes, closed captioning works, very basic setup. Didn't lose any channels, faster channel change than my Sammy 451 series STB. Picked up a UHF & VHF that I'm pointing 180 degrees away from!

Pass through isn't important to me:
I can just tune in any LPs with my existing,cheap TVs' NTSC tuner, with A/V connectors it doesn't have to be an either/or thing.

They did leave out a simple A/V cable & I don't know if this has been discussed, but it would be nice if the remotes had a "programmable volume" control, so you'd have one remote for TV & volume, without having to buy anything else.

D

The pass-through on a VCR needs an internal splitter
and a relay, to allow recording one channel and watching
another. Thus lowering signal strength approx 3.5 dB.

These new converter boxes wouldn't need a splitter, since
they don't record. To provide pass-through, all they need
is a relay, with minimal loss of signal.

But apparently they don't all provide pass-through.
Why not? The most obvious reason is to lower manufacturing
cost, however slightly. The expression "penny wise and pound
foolish" comes to mind.

If you find a box you like, except for the lack of
pass-through, you could use a splitter and a RF A-B switch.
This will cost approx 3.5 dB of signal strength. You can
avoid this loss by using a 2nd A-B switch in place of the
splitter. Slightly less convenient.

They make A-B switches with infrared remotes.

If your TV has more than 1 RF input you can avoid one A-B switch.

The following 2 ideas assume that the converter box outputs
on channel 3 or 4.

Another option is to use a Pico Macom SC-3 or SC-4, or similar.

If you don't have any VHF-LO stations, you could use a VHF-LO/VHF-HI
diplexor, such as the Pico Macom HLSJ.

The columns I'd like to see added to the comparison chart are
1) tuner / RF section make and model
2) demodulator chip make and model
3) mpeg decoder chip make and model

Items 1 & 2 for an indication of reception abilities.
I've read that some RF sections cut corners.
Item 3 to avoid problems like the Insignia.

Most people will not be tuning to analog stations after the transition. That's why analog pass through wasn't required.

Looks like S-video support is pretty thin on the ground. Is there any box with S-video support and a known-decent tuner chipset?

>The columns I'd like to see added to the comparison chart are
>1) tuner / RF section make and model
>2) demodulator chip make and model
>3) mpeg decoder chip make and model



I'd like to see these to. Just post the data here and I'll add it to my spreadsheet.



The spreadsheet maker

In case anyone here is buying the RjTECH RJ-900ATSC from Newegg;
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882107064

you can now get the compatible SmartAntenna;
http://www.summitsource.com/dx-antenna-dta5000-tv-smart-antenna-multidirectional-hdtv-digital-uhf-vhf-outdoor-offair-high-definition-local-hd-sylvania-television-reception-aerial-green-zone-part-dta5000-p-6320.html

it sure would be awesome if someone in an urban spot
would take the plunge, and let us know how it worked.

it sure would be awesome if someone in an urban spot
would take the plunge, and let us know how it worked.


I will, been looking for this antenna. Standby. :)

I emailed newegg's customer service to see if and how they
would handle the $40 coupons next Month and got this reply;

I am sorry I am not able to get to know that in advance. Please note that this is determined by our marketing department.
Please check this information on our website when the federal government releases the fund.
Thank you for your patience and understanding. If you have any concerns or questions, please contact us back.

I think that analog passthrough should have been a requirement and not just an optional feature. Maybe it will get added to the list for future boxes. Oh well - whoever said the government always did things right the first time was wrong :D .

For anyone interested, I've found a link to internal photos, external photos, user guide, test report, and more for the following:

Daewoo:
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=885310&fcc_id=\\\'C5F7NFD099\\\'

Daytek:
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=797143&fcc_id=\\\'VZRCAX-01\\\'

Zenith/Insignia:
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=406918&fcc_id=\\\'BEJ9QKE00710\\\'


I'll bet there lots of other boxes listed there, but trying to find them is proving very hard.


Bob Diaz

The Insignia CECB has frozen twice (within the first week of use) with a lot of text across the screen saying things such as "Undefined Instruction:1]....Unknown Fault Status, etc. The buttons on the remote control don't respond to anything. Anyone know what this phenomenon is called, and what causes it? (My HDTV freezes up now and then but never produces all this text.)

It sounds like something similar to a buffer overrun. It is disappointing to hear this on a box that has gotten otherwise such great reviews. I suspect it is associated with the CC operation as well.

Would it be possible for one of you other gentlemen that has obtained one of the Zenith/Insignia units to run an experiment? Turn on the CC and let it run for several hours and see if you get the same results? Inquiring minds want to know.

Note that LG "External Photos" shows front view of "Insignia" with a "Zenith" label on top.
Detailed photos show "Zenith LSX-300-4DM"....which has a Smart Antenna I/F, but no S-Video.

Hence it is NOT the same as the Insignia NS-DXA1, which does NOT have Smart Antenna.

Does anyone know who builds Channel Master boxes? I only know that they will have S-Video.

I also would like to know what chip-set the Channel Master uses. The PDF says that it also has digital audio out -- also seen on picture of back-panel. It appears the it may have a channel display on front. If it has a full EPG matrix, then all this peaks my interest.

The PDF says that it also has digital audio out -- also seen on picture of back-panel

If it does then it's not coupon-certified. Digital outputs are a no-no on those.

What happened to the Zenith LSX300-4DM? It's on Energy Star's CECB list. Did LG decide not to mass-produce them?

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/products/prod_lists/DTAs_prod_list.xls

If it does then it's not coupon-certified. Digital outputs are a no-no on those.
The prohibition is only on digital VIDEO outputs, I believe.

It sounds like something similar to a buffer overrun. It is disappointing to hear this on a box that has gotten otherwise such great reviews. I suspect it is associated with the CC operation as well.

Would it be possible for one of you other gentlemen that has obtained one of the Zenith/Insignia units to run an experiment? Turn on the CC and let it run for several hours and see if you get the same results? Inquiring minds want to know.

The original evaluator of the Insignia on another thread said he would do that.

FYI, not all of us are gentlemen! :D

Dana (female)

If it does then it's not coupon-certified. Digital outputs are a no-no on those.

The prohibition is only on digital VIDEO outputs, I believe.

The FAQ says that digital audio outputs are NOT allowed. The final rules did not prohibit nor permit the outputs. Still, it goes against the original mandate.

FYI, not all of us are gentlemen!I know I'm not. :D

FYI, not all of us are gentlemen! :D

Dana (female)

Touche!

Moving slightly OT: My favorite are the dopes who frequent Wally World who won't buy 16:9 SD DVDs (not that they know them by that name) because they believe the top and bottom of the movie has been cut out. I'm not kidding I stood by the movies for five minutes in disbelief listening to a pair of smelly people talk about it.
Ha, their VCR at home is probably still flashing 12:00 also.

Whodart

Most people will not be tuning to analog stations after the transition. That's why analog pass through wasn't required.
We have two analog only tv's that we would like to use with the STB converter to convert digital stations to analog before the changeover, and also watch the analog stations before changeover. That's what would make RF passthrough good for us.

Dave E

Touche!

I know I'm not. :D

Only by Act Of Congress... :)

We have two analog only tv's that we would like to use with the STB converter to convert digital stations to analog before the changeover, and also watch the analog stations before changeover. That's what would make RF passthrough good for us.

Dave E

That's why RF pass-through is permitted, but not required.

What happened to the Zenith LSX300-4DM? It's on Energy Star's CECB list. Did LG decide not to mass-produce them?

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/products/prod_lists/DTAs_prod_list.xls

Certainly not... The LSX300-4DM later became known as the DT900 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767&goto=newpost)

In a way, I think it's best that they don't have RF pass-through, to encourage the low power stations to convert to digital as soon as possible.

There's other reasons to have RF passthrough though. It's on the top of my chart for desired features.

The Insignia CECB has frozen twice (within the first week of use) with a lot of text across the screen saying things such as "Undefined Instruction:1]....Unknown Fault Status, etc. The buttons on the remote control don't respond to anything. Anyone know what this phenomenon is called, and what causes it? (My HDTV freezes up now and then but never produces all this text.)

Here's a picture:

http://lh4.google.com/dana.mulvany/R70NgNoK26I/AAAAAAAAAX8/rV7UZpd2B9Q/SV400261-3.JPG?imgmax=512

Other problems I've noticed is that the audio and video went out of sync and the captions became delayed the longer the box was on.

I've been running my Zenith for almost 4 hours with CC on and the box runs without any problem. I'm using your setting found in the following link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13191444#post13191444

As far as I've been able to tell, the Zenith is the same box as the Insignia.

Try going back to Best Buy and see if they'll give you a replacement box, my guess is there's something wrong with your box.


Sincerely,

Bob Diaz

> I suspect it is associated with the CC operation as well.

Hmmm, see the thread about Tivo series 3 and KATU-DT captions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10928271&&#post10928271

Does the Insignia have the same fine engineering as the Tivo series 3?

I have been looking through the sites at the various boxes, is there a way to tell who is using what chip system and what revision of the software (to make sure it has the latest and best verions?)

I was looking at the Microprose box and looking at their online manual, it reminds me a lot of the Zenith features and its connections look identical to the Zenith/Best Buy boxes - so is it the same system?

Here is the manual:
http://www.microprosesystems.com/manuals/ATS50100-MPI-500-IM1.pdf




-=Doug=-

I was looking at the Microprose box and looking at their online manual, it reminds me a lot of the Zenith features and its connections look identical to the Zenith/Best Buy boxes - so is it the same system?

Here is the manual:
http://www.microprosesystems.com/manuals/ATS50100-MPI-500-IM1.pdf

-=Doug=-

I noticed on page 11 it lists QAM in the specifications.

I have been looking through the sites at the various boxes, is there a way to tell who is using what chip system and what revision of the software (to make sure it has the latest and best verions?)

I was looking at the Microprose box and looking at their online manual, it reminds me a lot of the Zenith features and its connections look identical to the Zenith/Best Buy boxes - so is it the same system?

Here is the manual:
http://www.microprosesystems.com/manuals/ATS50100-MPI-500-IM1.pdf




-=Doug=-

In look at the user guide, it looks VERY different than the Zenith DTT900 Converter.

Sadly, it's next to impossible to find out which chip system and software version is in any given box. Not that people on this forum won't find a way to figure it out... :)


Bob Diaz

So that means - if you hook it up to a cable TV connection that is supplying a Digital signal, the Microprose box can get receiption from a cable tv feed???

What if the cable connection is just regular analog, it wouldn't work, right?

I get confused over the whole QAM thing, plus I doubt the cable companies are going to be cooperative about supplying multicasting and such, they want people to pony up $30-$50 a month to subscribe to their service, not run out and pay $59-$69 for a one time box, get $40 bucks back to boot, then get free TV for the life of that box.



-=Doug=-


I noticed on page 11 it lists QAM in the specifications.

For a QAM tuner to be of any use, you must subscribe to at-least analog cable. What you would be able to do is watch the unencrypted digital feeds that the cable system is providing. Typically, these are the local over-the-air High Definition channels + the digital version of SOME of the channels you are paying for + music channels + preview channels.

Be aware that even though the specs may list QAM, nobody knows for sure whether the feature will be enabled or not in the coupon models. Most likely it is forbidden, but we shall find out shortly.

nobody knows for sure whether the feature will be enabled or not in the coupon models

I'm hoping on at least one box it can be enabled by the secret code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konami_Code) ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A START

Be aware that even though the specs may list QAM, nobody knows for sure whether the feature will be enabled or not in the coupon models. Most likely it is forbidden, but we shall find out shortly.

FWIW, the coupon boxes are not supposed to be QAM enabled. Whether any of them will have some obscure cheat code that can unlock that or not remains to be seen, but the fact is that they are not supposed to have that capability (locked or unlocked) in the first place. Since the NTIA tested each of these units before approving them, chances are that nothing "forbidden" has slipped through, else they would not have qualified for the program.

Since the NTIA tested each of these units before approving them, chances are that nothing "forbidden" has slipped through, else they would not have qualified for the program.How would they know of a secret code to unlock QAM?

Ed

What I meant is that they can look at the schematics and the physical innards and probably determine if QAM capability is there to begin with. I'm not a techie, but I would think if there is a chip used that is QAM-capable, that would be something they could determine, no?

What I meant is that they can look at the schematics and the physical innards and probably determine if QAM capability is there to begin with. I'm not a techie, but I would think if there is a chip used that is QAM-capable, that would be something they could determine, no?

The chip may be capable of doing 8VSB, QAM and NTSC but if only 8VSB is "hooked up" then the other capabilities are meaningless to that unit. The others could be disabled (or simply not enabled) via the electronics or the firmware depending on how the chip is constructed.

So it sounds like we are all going to be looking for a new Forum in the coming months:

Modifying, Hacking and Enabling CEBC features.





-=Doug=-

Certainly not... The LSX300-4DM later became known as the DT900 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767&goto=newpost)
External Photos for the (clearly marked) LSX300-4DM show a SMART ANTENNA I/F,
which is missing in the DT900...hence they "may" be similiar, but are not the same box....