Remember when Sony took backwards compatibility out of the PLAYSTATION 3? That hurt. But, don't worry, it appears as though Sony hasn't totally given up on BC. A job listing for a development engineer has popped up on the Sony Computer Entertainment site. The job entails:



Implementing and improving software emulation for the PS/PS2/PSP/PS3 for the PS3 and the next generation system.


Sure, no doubt Sony is planning their next console (as are Microsoft and Nintendo), but that's still pie in the sky stuff! What interests us: Sony clearly hasn't given up on BC and seems be interested in PSP games on the PS3. Meaning? We assume players could download PSP for play on the PS3 — the opposite of the current PS3 to PSP transfer. And right now, that sounds way neater than any PS4 rumors.
Job Listing [Sony Computer Entertainment via Gigazine via GameFront via GAMER via Dtoid]

Update: Reader Muu points out: "The top page of the jobs-for-hire show any updates that have been made to the site; the backwards-compatibility job isn't on that list right now, and there's archived snapshot evidence that it's been there since May 18th of 2007."

http://kotaku.com/346279/yes-sony-still-cares-about-backwards-compat-[update]

There are a lot of people who are loving to proclaim that Sony is done with BC on the PS3. This article argues that. My thoughts? I bet you that PS2 emulation is being worked on very hard for a full software solution. FULL. As in, everything down to the 40 gig will be able to run PS2 in software only.

Why?

Money... And lots of it. The PS2 library is full of the most popular games of all time. Sony wants to sell these on the download. PS1 is good to go and PS2 is a no brainer. They could make millions and it seems they want to.

Now being able to play PSP games on the PS3? SIGN ME UP! I love my silver PSP but that control stick is hell. Set me loose online in Socom and Siphon Filter with my Dual Shock 3 in hand.

What do you all think? If Sony magically gave BC to all the 40 owners, would not not be some of the most positive PR ever?

Everytime I hear something about backwards compatibility, I am growing more in love with
my 60GB PS3. Although some PS2 tend to look bad on PlayStation 3 even with upscaling
and smoothing on. Although the PSP is a good idea. It is also possible for 40GB SKU get
a upgraded firmware (or retail disc?) to be installed and working on it just like 80GB does.

It is also possible for 40GB SKU get
a upgraded firmware (or retail disc?) to be installed and working on it just like 80GB does.

It would be impossible to work just like the 80. The 80 has the PS2 GPU included. It only lacks the Emotion Engine. The 40 lacks both the CPU and GPU.

For the 40 to work there needs to be a new 100% software solution in place.

PS3 60: Emotion Engine - Graphics Synthesizer
PS3 80: Software/Cell - Graphics Synthesizer
PS3 40: No Hardware - No software

http://kotaku.com/346279/yes-sony-still-cares-about-backwards-compat-[update]

There are a lot of people who are loving to proclaim that Sony is done with BC on the PS3. This article argues that. My thoughts? I bet you that PS2 emulation is being worked on very hard for a full software solution. FULL. As in, everything down to the 40 gig will be able to run PS2 in software only.

Why?

Money... And lots of it. The PS2 library is full of the most popular games of all time. Sony wants to sell these on the download. PS1 is good to go and PS2 is a no brainer. They could make millions and it seems they want to.

Now being able to play PSP games on the PS3? SIGN ME UP! I love my silver PSP but that control stick is hell. Set me loose online in Socom and Siphon Filter with my Dual Shock 3 in hand.

What do you all think? If Sony magically gave BC to all the 40 owners, would not not be some of the most positive PR ever?


Damn, that'll piss me off. I just gave my PS2 and it's entire game library to a friend of mine......I guess I'll have to rebuy the God of War's and Final Fantasy's if they do get it working?! :D

Damn, that'll piss me off. I just gave my PS2 and it's entire game library to a friend of mine......I guess I'll have to rebuy the God of War's and Final Fantasy's if they do get it working?! :D
that would be the only way I'd actually play silent hill origins >___>

I'd like to see an improved emulator that renders the game at HD resolutions. Upscaling is meh, since I let my TV do that anyway.

I'd like to see an improved emulator that renders the game at HD resolutions. Upscaling is meh, since I let my TV do that anyway.

Considering PS2 games aren't designed to render at anything higher than 480i (some 480p and a couple 1080i) I don't think that's even possible and if it was the tremendous work involved in patching every PS2 game to be able to do that to get the marginal increase in PQ you'd get in the already substandard graphics would be absolutely pointless.

Great news. I'm really glad that I purchased my 60gb PS3 when I did :). . Not sure why they got rid of the 60gb :eek:. Yes I do realize that production costs were too high but still, Backwards compatibility was still one of the PS3's great features. Hopefully they'll come out with a PS3 that's fully backwards compatible with PS1 and PS2 games.

It would be impossible to work just like the 80. The 80 has the PS2 GPU included. It only lacks the Emotion Engine. The 40 lacks both the CPU and GPU.

For the 40 to work there needs to be a new 100% software solution in place.

PS3 60: Emotion Engine - Graphics Synthesizer
PS3 80: Software/Cell - Graphics Synthesizer
PS3 40: No Hardware - No software

RSX can emulate Graphics Synthesizer through software support. It's a GPU
much like how PC emulate PS2 or PS1 games.

Ok no one make fun of me ok? I wasnt going to post anything but since this thread popped up I'll expose myself :o

Two nights ago I had a dream. I was taking a class at my local community college and was inbetween lecture so I started playing my PSP. I noticed a game share invite, never played with anyone else on a psp, so I was really excited! I started looking around to see where it was coming from and damn if I dont see PHIL HARRISON playing a custom PSP!! His psp opened like a DS but it was white and had the coolest dragon custom artwork on it. Anyway, needless to say I ran over to him and started the barrage of questions and pleas. After talking to him for a while about all things ps3/psp I go "You know what would be really cool of you guys?" Phil says "whats that?" I say "Full ps2 software emulation on the ps3." Phil says "Well Im not supposed to say anything about it but its coming within this week or two." I go "Dammit I knew it!!! Something was telling me you guys were working on it. You bastards! Good ****!" Then the teacher interrupted us and I woke up.

Ok no one make fun of me ok? I wasnt going to post anything but since this thread popped up I'll expose myself :o

Two nights ago I had a dream. I was taking a class at my local community college and was inbetween lecture so I started playing my PSP. I noticed a game share invite, never played with anyone else on a psp, so I was really excited! I started looking around to see where it was coming from and damn if I dont see PHIL HARRISON playing a custom PSP!! His psp opened like a DS but it was white and had the coolest dragon custom artwork on it. Anyway, needless to say I ran over to him and started the barrage of questions and pleas. After talking to him for a while about all things ps3/psp I go "You know what would be really cool of you guys?" Phil says "whats that?" I say "Full ps2 software emulation on the ps3." Phil says "Well Im not supposed to say anything about it but its coming within this week or two." I go "Dammit I knew it!!! Something was telling me you guys were working on it. You bastards! Good ****!" Then the teacher interrupted us and I woke up.

And this one time at band camp....

Ok no one make fun of me ok? I wasnt going to post anything but since this thread popped up I'll expose myself :o

Two nights ago I had a dream. I was taking a class at my local community college and was inbetween lecture so I started playing my PSP. I noticed a game share invite, never played with anyone else on a psp, so I was really excited! I started looking around to see where it was coming from and damn if I dont see PHIL HARRISON playing a custom PSP!! His psp opened like a DS but it was white and had the coolest dragon custom artwork on it. Anyway, needless to say I ran over to him and started the barrage of questions and pleas. After talking to him for a while about all things ps3/psp I go "You know what would be really cool of you guys?" Phil says "whats that?" I say "Full ps2 software emulation on the ps3." Phil says "Well Im not supposed to say anything about it but its coming within this week or two." I go "Dammit I knew it!!! Something was telling me you guys were working on it. You bastards! Good ****!" Then the teacher interrupted us and I woke up.

... Lay off grandpas cough medicine before you go to bed dude.

I'd like to see an improved emulator that renders the game at HD resolutions. Upscaling is meh, since I let my TV do that anyway.Yes, yes, yes!
Have you seen FFXII running in PCSX2 through the GSdx10 plugin and using high internal resolutions? The game looks remarkable still. Seeing is believing!

Yes, yes, yes!
Have you seen FFXII running in PCSX2 through the GSdx10 plugin and using high internal resolutions? The game looks remarkable still. Seeing is believing!

Huh?

RSX can emulate Graphics Synthesizer through software support. It's a GPU
much like how PC emulate PS2 or PS1 games.


Obviously. lol The 40 would need a total software emulation as opposed the the 80 that has partial hardware inside. The 40 can't emulate like the 80 and the 80 can't do like the 60.

You basically said the same thing I did. Glad you agree! ;)

I don't know what everyone's obsession with the PS3's BC is. A REAL Sony fan already has a 60GB or 20GB model, as well as a PS2 in the first place. They should've kept it, but you guys wanted it cheaper...

Everytime I hear something about backwards compatibility, I am growing more in love with
my 60GB PS3. Although some PS2 tend to look bad on PlayStation 3 even with upscaling
and smoothing on. Although the PSP is a good idea. It is also possible for 40GB SKU get
a upgraded firmware (or retail disc?) to be installed and working on it just like 80GB does.
meh, i have a 20GB, and honestly, i've barely touched any of my PS2 games (i own 20+). the only games i've played since i bought my PS3 were GoW2 (bought it right after i bought my PS3) and i busted out GT3 again. if i didn't own a PS3 and i still had my PS2 (sold it to help fund my PS3) i would be perfectly happy having a PS2 and 40GB PS3. looking back on it now, i would actually prefer this setup.

I'm using the backwards compatibility at times, but it's not for PS2 games. When I'm not playing Rock Band or Call of Duty 4, I'm popping in my Final Fantasy PS1 games as I'm trying to beat all the FF games from 1 through 12 before 13 comes out for the PS3!

Good news. I agree that it will allow Sony to expand the PSN library with PS2 games if they offer the software emulation.

I for one hope that they manually upgrade the frame rate, textures, and detail of certain key releases like Shadow of Colossus (I just finished this incredible game last night). Namco did this with Tekken on the PS3, so it is possible.

Huh?
He is talking about PS2 emulation for PCs. Rendering at HD resolutions rather than SD ones makes for a huge improvement in image quality, and it doesn't require a game to be designed or patched to support it either. 3D rendering is a finite approximation of infinite resolution geometry, how many pixels is actually used to render the images is only limited to what a given hardware configuration can accomplish at a reasonable framerate. So, if Sony does put enough work into software emulation, all PS3's could conceivable render previous generation PlayStation games in HD.

Good news. I agree that it will allow Sony to expand the PSN library with PS2 games if they offer the software emulation.

I for one hope that they manually upgrade the frame rate, textures, and detail of certain key releases like Shadow of Colossus (I just finished this incredible game last night). Namco did this with Tekken on the PS3, so it is possible.I hope not. I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to gaming. I love the Wii's VC because it's so totally faithful to the original game code (and consequent frame rates and resolutions). "Upgrading" those games is as much a travesty as colorizing old movies.

I'm sure Sony will start moving toward a VC-like library of old PS1/2 games once they phase out the current 80gig sku, but I'd love for them to leave the original game code alone as much as possible. Of course, it's all moot since I have a 60gig.

And for the record, I take advantage of PS2 BC almost as much as I play PS3 games. I just recently played through MGS3 in anticipation of MGS4.

I love the Wii's VC because it's so totally faithful to the original game code (and consequent frame rates and resolutions).
No it isn't, or at least Mario64 isn't. I bought that and it renders at 4 times the resolution of the orignal. And thank God, the orignal 320x240 sucks.

I love how the ps2 games look on my 60gb. And it connects to my ps2's for lan fun. Some ps2 games are still great.

ssx3
downhill domination
atv2/4
jet20x
jax combat racing.
mx motottrax
hot wheels stunt track
ratchet uya

The 80GB's emulation is horrible. I sincerely hope they continue to work on it. None of my SSX games work with it.

Thankfully my whole PS2 collection works :)

AceCombat5:The Unsung War
AceCombatZero
BeyondGood&Evil
Driv3r
EnterTheMatrix
Fifa2004
FFX
fordRacing2
TheGateway
TheGatewayBlackMonday
Ghosthunter
GOW
GOW2
GT3
GT4
GTASA
ICO
007:EverythingorNothing
RiseToHonor
KingdomHearts
KingdomHearts2
LegacyofKain
TheLordofTheRingsROTK
Manhunt
TheMatrix:PathofNeo
MetalGearSolid3SE
MGS3:Subsistence
MC2
NFSMW
NFSU
NFSU2
NFSHP2
Primal
POPTOT
POPWW
RE4
REOutbreak
SOTC
SH2
SH3
Sh4
Socom3
Socom2
Socom
SC2
TocaRD3
SplinterCell
SCCT
SCPT
TR:Legend

Including MGS1 for PS1 and FFVII :D thanks to the 60giger ;)

The 80GB's emulation is horrible. I sincerely hope they continue to work on it. None of my SSX games work with it.

90% of the PS2 titles on the 80GB machine work no differently than the 60GB. That's thousands of games right there before you factor in 100% compatibility with PSOne games. No other competing console comes close in number or percentage. Maybe the games you have problems with unfortunately fall in that 10% range, but "horrible" it is not.

90% of the PS2 titles on the 80GB machine work no differently than the 60GB. That's thousands of games right there before you factor in 100% compatibility with PSOne games. No other competing console comes close in number or percentage. Maybe the games you have problems with unfortunately fall in that 10% range, but "horrible" it is not.

Where are you getting your figures from? Because the games I have searched for on the Playstation web site sure don't seem to support your 90% figure.

http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus

SSX was a very popular series. And every one of them has issues on the 80 gig. Even SSX Tricky crashes on the 80 gig, and that is actually listed as having "no known issues."

Where are you getting your figures from? Because the games I have searched for on the Playstation web site sure don't seem to support your 90% figure.

http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus

SSX was a very popular series. And every one of them has issues on the 80 gig. Even SSX Tricky crashes on the 80 gig, and that is actually listed as having "no known issues."


Here ya go. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26702) A Sony Euro exec talking on the difference between hardware and software emulation:


Q: But if as you say there's no difference between the 60GB and 80GB, is SCEA making the right decision in offering the 80GB?

A: The difference is that the 60GB we have now has about 88 per cent backwards compatibility. The 60GB they had had 100 per cent backwards compatibility. They felt that by going down for 100 to 88, for example, that they'd have to add something in - and that's what they did.

That was their decision. We just felt that we didn't want to complicate things; we wanted to have one model, and we've had one model, we've done very well with it, now we'll add value and we'll think about what we'll do closer to Christmas.

Hardware emulation was actually about 98% for American/Japanese PS3s, but the point is clear. Software was at 88% then (for Euro 60GB and all 80GB units) and we've had firmware updates since then (like v1.92) that improved it even more. That's at least 90% of almost 3,000 PS2 games working, a very impressive figure that again is by no means "horrible" as you put it.

Yes, you have games that don't work... I hope that one day improves. It has nothing to do with SSX being popular or not; if it is on the list it is on the list. However in the big picture of things your overall assessment of the PS3's BC is way off base, nowhere close to being accurate.

Sorry, I don't believe that exec for a second. You just have to search on the PS2 compatibility list to see that he is wrong. Before 1.93, it was even worse. 2.10 apparently also brought some fixes. And it is obvious that even games that the list says have no issues really do have issues (like SSX Tricky).

Execs say a lot of incorrect stuff. :)

Besides, even if it was 90% compatible, for me, the backwards compatibility is horrible. If 100% of the PS2 games I want to play on my PS3 don't work, that sucks.

The good thing is that the emulation is being improved. But I'm really not happy about it right now. I want to trade in my PS2 (especially before it drops in price), but I don't really feel comfortable doing that right now. I'll probably do it anyway and take the risk.

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]There are a lot of people who are loving to proclaim that Sony is done with BC on the PS3. This article argues that. My thoughts? I bet you that PS2 emulation is being worked on very hard for a full software solution. FULL. As in, everything down to the 40 gig will be able to run PS2 in software only.

Why?

Money... And lots of it. The PS2 library is full of the most popular games of all time. Sony wants to sell these on the download. PS1 is good to go and PS2 is a no brainer. They could make millions and it seems they want to.

Now being able to play PSP games on the PS3? SIGN ME UP! I love my silver PSP but that control stick is hell. Set me loose online in Socom and Siphon Filter with my Dual Shock 3 in hand.

What do you all think? If Sony magically gave BC to all the 40 owners, would not not be some of the most positive PR ever?Just to clarify some terminology here. "Full software backwards compatibility" is not the same thing as software emulation for possible future PS1/2 downloads.

"Backwards compatibility" implies that old discs will work with the system. What you're suggesting is more like Wii's VC. The Wii is only "backwards compatible" with Gamecube games. VC games are software emulated legacy titles.

Great news. I'm really glad that I purchased my 60gb PS3 when I did :).

Ditto!

Just to clarify some terminology here. "Full software backwards compatibility" is not the same thing as software emulation for possible future PS1/2 downloads.

"Backwards compatibility" implies that old discs will work with the system. What you're suggesting is more like Wii's VC. The Wii is only "backwards compatible" with Gamecube games. VC games are software emulated legacy titles.

I think we can assume that the PS2 emulation would work just like the PS1 full emulation every PS3 has. Discs or software will function as one. There's no reason Sony would allow the PS1 emulation to boot discs and not the PS2. Especially since the PS1 already has several downloadable software titles available.

Whatever improvements in emulation Sony makes on the PS2 software will benefit both digital downloads and your disc collections. The terminology is correctly assigned.

I think we can assume that the PS2 emulation would work just like the PS1 full emulation every PS3 has. Discs or software will function as one. There's no reason Sony would allow the PS1 emulation to boot discs and not the PS2. Especially since the PS1 already has several downloadable software titles available.

Whatever improvements in emulation Sony makes on the PS2 software will benefit both digital downloads and your disc collections. The terminology is correctly assigned.I wouldn't be too sure. It's to Sony's advantage to keep PS2 discs from playing on their newest console if they continue down the route of software emulation. With Kutaragi gone, I don't think future iterations of the console will be nearly so friendly as these early ones; I'm sure Sony recognizes the business error they made in not having more proprietary gear (HDDs and whatnot). Kutaragi pushed to keep it as open and consumer-friendly as possible. But now, I'd expect legacy titles to go the same way as MS's and Nintendo's.

My guess is we won't be seeing any future firmware updates that modify or improve BC for those with the 80gig. Those of us with the 20gig and 60gig are set. I'd bet that future skus go the route of the 40gig, and Sony will start distributing PS1/2 titles via PSN. I wouldn't count on a software-only solution that lets gamers play their old PS2 discs.

I wouldn't be too sure. It's to Sony's advantage to keep PS2 discs from playing on their newest console if they continue down the route of software emulation. With Kutaragi gone, I don't think future iterations of the console will be nearly so friendly as these early ones; I'm sure Sony recognizes the business error they made in not having more proprietary gear (HDDs and whatnot). Kutaragi pushed to keep it as open and consumer-friendly as possible. But now, I'd expect legacy titles to go the same way as MS's and Nintendo's.

My guess is we won't be seeing any future firmware updates that modify or improve BC for those with the 80gig. Those of us with the 20gig and 60gig are set. I'd bet that future skus go the route of the 40gig, and Sony will start distributing PS1/2 titles via PSN. I wouldn't count on a software-only solution that lets gamers play their old PS2 discs.

To assume randomly that Sony's going to change a policy already in place is silly at best. Sony has already set up and executed emulation BC and Digital Distribution in harmony on every single PS3 sku. There's no reason logically why this would change.

In fact, if you want to blindly make suggestions for radical changes: If Sony comes up with a complete software solution for PS2 emulation and decides to digitally distribute software they could actually turn hardware BC off on 20s, 60s and 80s to make way for a type of piracy protection that must audit online as with Xbox 360. Since the 20, 60 and 80 lock out the PSN while in PS2 operation, it could be something they have to change by forcing universal software emulation.

Wild speculation gets us nowhere and only serves to confuse and upset current owners who don't know any better. What you would or would not count on means nothing compared to what has already been placed in front of us as the example.

You use the Virtual Console as an example and for the life of me I can't figure out why. The VC is a multi-console emulation program for game hardware that does not use disc media as the console does. Surely you didn't expect the Wii to ship with a Turbo Grafx and Neo Geo cart slot did you? Microsoft and Sony both support BC and Digital Distribution of game titles while also allowing use of discs. Neither does anything like Nintendo. Both camps seem more interested in original content as opposed to Nintendo as well.

There seems to be this childish "20/60" club thing going on lately here. Many users, not just yourself try and seemingly brag that they own a 20 or 60 in relation to BC and want to trash or confuse anyone who owns a 40 or 80. I personally got a 60 at launch and today I own both a 20 and 80. I also own a US and JP Playstation 2 console set... What does that have to do at all with emulation progress for the PS3 platform? You guessed it: Nothing. I hope that one day all PS3 owners will be able to enjoy the PS2 library on their PS3. Not because I personally need it, but because I think we should all have it. Those who own a 40 should not feel second class to anyone else. It's not a crime to need a cheaper console to join the fun.

It's obvious that Sony has big plans for emulation of all platforms from PS1 to PS3. To be negative in that light simply to flaunt the fact that you own old hardware seems disrespectful and oblivious.

Since 60gig models are readily available, I can't seriously feel smug. My earlier comment to that effect was just some playful comment. I can't honestly feel superior to others in any way since, as I said, a fully BC console is still readily available at retail.

Also, if we're not here to speculate, I'm not sure why the thread was started in the first place. It seems like you were asking us to join in your initial speculation. ;)

In fact, if you want to blindly make suggestions for radical changes: If Sony comes up with a complete software solution for PS2 emulation and decides to digitally distribute software they could actually turn hardware BC off on 20s, 60s and 80s to make way for a type of piracy protection that must audit online as with Xbox 360. Since the 20, 60 and 80 lock out the PSN while in PS2 operation, it could be something they have to change by forcing universal software emulation.I doubt they'll go this far. I actually think they'll follow in the 360's footsteps in this regard. MS, as you know, decided to discontinue updates to their BC. In its stead, they've gone the route of offering downloadable versions of games from their prior console at a cost. But that doesn't mean that they've "locked out" the ability to read original xbox game discs. Hell, you can buy a Halo disc cheaper than you can download it, and both work on the console.

Wild speculation gets us nowhere and only serves to confuse and upset current owners who don't know any better. What you would or would not count on means nothing compared to what has already been placed in front of us as the example.I absolutely have no intent to upset current or potential owners. As I said, if BC is important to a potential owner, there are still two skus available with strong BC support at retail. I'm merely basing my educated guess on the fact that MS has changed their BC strategy, and based on the new 40gig, Sony seems to be headed in the same direction. I could be wrong. Sony themselves probably don't know for sure yet what they're going to do; I bet they're in the process of "speculating" right now, as well.

You use the Virtual Console as an example and for the life of me I can't figure out why. The VC is a multi-console emulation program for game hardware that does not use disc media as the console does. Surely you didn't expect the Wii to ship with a Turbo Grafx and Neo Geo cart slot did you? Microsoft and Sony both support BC and Digital Distribution of game titles while also allowing use of discs. Neither does anything like Nintendo. Both camps seem more interested in original content as opposed to Nintendo as well.You're quite right about the Virtual Console. From the get-go, Nintendo had planned it this way. I brought it up because it's an example of a software-only solution coupled with an exclusively for-pay downloadable service (unlike 360 and PS3). But MS is now changing gears in their BC strategy, and it's looking like Sony is seriously considering a shift.

It's obvious that Sony has big plans for emulation of all platforms from PS1 to PS3. To be negative in that light simply to flaunt the fact that you own old hardware seems disrespectful and oblivious.It was not meant as a dig at those who don't own a BC-ready console. If I've confused or offended anyone, I apologize. But I also agree that Sony has plans for rethinking their legacy support. We obviously just disagree on what that actually means.

Also, if Sony's research is any guide, BC isn't important to current and potential owners. Those few to whom it's important have already purchased a console, so I seriously doubt any owner of a 40gig sku would take offense to any nonsensical "smugness."

But MS is now changing gears in their BC strategy, and it's looking like Sony is seriously considering a shift.

This is where your position gets really slippery. The problem with the Microsoft "shift" is that the titles they offer are all BC already. That means you can buy it from them or you can put the disc in to play. That's just like Sony's current PS1 strategy. Microsoft has moved to copy what Sony is already doing. They are basically putting up disc images and the current emulation handles the game just exactly as if it were a disc. Again, like the PS3 already does. Microsoft has more than enough games on the BC list to release all the titles they want without having to do any work in the process. The Xbox had many fewer million sellers than the PS2. So instead of both companies shifting, we basically just see MS stepping up to what Sony's already doing. Microsoft has warned that they are going to wind down on BC because just about everything is covered. Sony on the other hand is building up their emulation teams as we speak.

It was not meant as a dig at those who don't own a BC-ready console. If I've confused or offended anyone, I apologize. But I also agree that Sony has plans for rethinking their legacy support. We obviously just disagree on what that actually means.

It was not just you I was speaking about, and I'm sure you've also seen a fair share of the attitude here that if you don't own a 20 or 60, you are second class. It started bothering me when a friend of mine brought it up in relation to his own 40 purchase.

Also, if Sony's research is any guide, BC isn't important to current and potential owners. Those few to whom it's important have already purchased a console, so I seriously doubt any owner of a 40gig sku would take offense to any nonsensical "smugness."

Sony is wildly seeking to cut costs on consoles and hardware removal is an easy way to do that. I'd not directly relate that to what they feel the customer is or isn't ready for. When the PS3 was designed it was to use software for BC. That software was not ready for launch so they had to throw in kit for it. The 80 was a first step to software emulation and the 40 and future consoles may try to push for the full gambit. With the job postings and the recent talks and hints at shows lately, it's safe to assume Sony still wants to get to software only. If Sony were to be able to offer 40 gig owners the same PS2 support as 80 owners it would be wonderful out of the gate.

Remember, this is the company who said that not only was rumble in tilt controllers totally impossible but also that no one on earth wanted rumble anyway. Ask anyone here including myself how much they love their Dual Shock 3's and you quickly see that what Sony tries to say and what it actually does can be very different. That's why I try to watch the motion of the beast instead of listening for the roar.

When the PS3 was designed it was to use software for BC. That software was not ready for launch so they had to throw in kit for it. The 80 was a first step to software emulation and the 40 and future consoles may try to push for the full gambit.Huh. I did not know that. You've now gone a long way toward changing my mind.

If that's the case, it's yet another sign that this console generation came too soon. We all know about the more infamous consequences of MS going too fast to market, but it's surprising to see just how many things Sony had to skip out on in order to get to market quickly.

Not just having to toss in PS2 hardware initially (which obviously ended up costing them money), but having a bare-bones online store, a rumble-less controller, etc. Just think back to all the important features that were added through firmware updates in 2007. It's crazy to imagine that the console launched without a lot of the features that we now all take for granted.

At this rate, the console as it was initially planned won't be ready until sometime this year!

Here's an article from 2003 where Ken explains that the PS3 will use emulation for PS2 games: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=2171

Rob Fahey 14:23 02/09/2003
World not exactly in shock, but nice to know all the same
Sony Computer Entertainment boss Ken Kutaragi has confirmed that the PlayStation 3 will feature backwards compatibility with the PS2 and PSone, ensuring continued support for older software formats in the new hardware.
Speaking to Japanese newspaper Asahi Shimbun, Kutaragi-san attributed some of the success of the PS2 to the console's ability to play PSone games as well as PS2 native titles, stating that this was "a matter of security... [PS2] offers a sense of insurance because it is compatible with PSone and DVD-Movies."

This trend - started by Sony with the PS2, as backwards compatibility in home consoles was certainly not the norm before then - is set to continue with the PS3, which will offer emulation for the PS2 and hence for the PSone.
"PSone runs on the PlayStation 2 through emulation rather than actual hardware. PlayStation 3 will offer the same compatibility for PS2 software and the format will continue forever," he explained.

It's expected that Microsoft's successor to the Xbox will also offer backwards compatibility with current hardware - although the recently announced decision to partner with ATI rather than NVIDIA may cause trouble in this respect, according to some graphics experts.

"ATI's hardware runs the same sort of pixel shaders and so on that the NVIDIA chipset does," one graphics programmer working on Xbox games explained to us, "but getting the hardware to exactly mimic the behaviour of an NVIDIA part could be very tricky... It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft can get Xbox 2 to play Xbox games without glitches, especially ones that have been written to tie in closely with the console's specs."

As Microsoft kept pushing the release window of the 360, Sony slapped a PS2 into every 20 and 60 just to get them out the door. This added to an already expensive console and Sony's been dashing to finish software BC ever since.

This gen certainly came way too early. The Xbox was never fully tapped power wise, but it simply cost too much for MS to go on with it. That tipped the scale that made the rest of the industry jump off the cliff with them. Then instead of a smooth flow into software BC when ready, the price war forced Sony to first send out hybrids and now stripped models. That could change though if the Software BC does indeed come in a firmware upgrade. It's also very likely the software emulation would do a better job than the 80's hybrid set up. Sony emulated the PS1 really well and the PS2 could be just as nice with enough time to properly test the code.

I agree 100% that the PS3 today kicks the ass of the PS3 at launch with all of the new firmware additions and value adds. If Sony were to release a new 20 gig and the existing 40 gig skus at $299/$399 adding back in the BC, you could see a real jump in console sales. Then as the platform builds you have universal PS2 support and can start to re-sell the most popular games library of all time while at the same time allowing gamers to use the new PS2 games they are still buying (will the PS2 ever die?) on the PS3.

That's why I try to watch the motion of the beast instead of listening for the roar.

Does that strategy work for wives? ;)

Huh?

He's talking about the PC PS2 emulator. You can run games at much higher resolutions than they were designed for.

Screenshots here (http://www.pcsx2.net/screenshots.php).

It is absolutely possible for Sony to create a fully-featured emulator that allows PS2 games to run resolutions beyond what they were programmed for. But like you said, there's no incentive and value for them to do so.

I agree 100% that the PS3 today kicks the ass of the PS3 at launch with all of the new firmware additions and value adds. If Sony were to release a new 20 gig and the existing 40 gig skus at $299/$399 adding back in the BC, you could see a real jump in console sales. Then as the platform builds you have universal PS2 support and can start to re-sell the most popular games library of all time while at the same time allowing gamers to use the new PS2 games they are still buying (will the PS2 ever die?) on the PS3.Thanks for the link.

And when I hear things like this, all I can do is dream that someday the PS2 GH guitars will have a working adapter for PS3. :(

Does that strategy work for wives? ;)

I have no idea but it works great for girlfriends! I became deaf from the roar long ago. lol I hear the wife roar is much louder though. :cool:

I have no idea but it works great for girlfriends! I became deaf from the roar long ago. lol I hear the wife roar is much louder though. :cool:

Not so much louder, moreso that the roar has more behind implied danger. That, and the roar of the wife can be much more quiet until you're beyond point of no return.

I for one would not mind the ability to get a few "classics" of PSN. But lets be real here, once you play real PS3 games who wants to turn back the clock?

I for one would not mind the ability to get a few "classics" of PSN. But lets be real here, once you play real PS3 games who wants to turn back the clock?

Me. I love older games.

I for one would not mind the ability to get a few "classics" of PSN. But lets be real here, once you play real PS3 games who wants to turn back the clock?I do. I spend at least as much time playing older titles as I do playing recent ones.

I love games with awesome new tech, but I also like games that are just good games, regardless of how new or tricked-out they are. People like us may be the exception, but we're still a sizable (and profitable) group of gamers.

I'd love to see some PS1 titles reappear on PSN that I missed the first time around. Some of those games now go on ebay for more money than I'm willing to spend ($20+), so bringing them to PSN would be fantastic. The cost to Sony would be minimal, so it wouldn't take much to make a return on their investment. Nintendo's VC has been raking in serious money on legacy titles. There's no reason Sony couldn't do just as well.

He's talking about the PC PS2 emulator. You can run games at much higher resolutions than they were designed for.

Screenshots here (http://www.pcsx2.net/screenshots.php).

It is absolutely possible for Sony to create a fully-featured emulator that allows PS2 games to run resolutions beyond what they were programmed for. But like you said, there's no incentive and value for them to do so.

WOW! I had no idea that was possible. Holy crap I know Sony has no incentive to go through the trouble to allow PS2 games to render at HD resolutions but damn those look pretty. Seriously those look as good as they looked on my old SD CRT sans all the jaggies and I almost wanna say they look more detailed.

I for one would not mind the ability to get a few "classics" of PSN. But lets be real here, once you play real PS3 games who wants to turn back the clock?

I do. I love old games, hell I just love great games in general. Sure there are games with some nice eye candy on my next-gen systems that are a lot of fun to play but there's also a bunch of last-gen games I like playing (I'm 60 hours into FFXII as we speak with easily another 20 hours if not more to invest in it) and there's plenty of classic games I still love to play. Why do you think Nintendo is doing so spectacularly with the virtual console?

Me. I love older games.

Same here

But lets be real here, once you play real PS3 games who wants to turn back the clock?I

I actually believe that most people buy a handful of Virtual Console games for nostalgia (hey! I loved this when I was a kid) and play it for a few minutes before realizing the deceiving power of nostalgia.

But the PSX and PS2 are not that old. There are plenty, plenty of games on Ps2 worth playing nowadays. PlayStation there's still quite a few. Tomba! and Tomba! 2 on the PSN would be great. I have them on disc but they would be perfect PSP titles!

I have heard the Japanese PSN has a ton of PSX games for download. Even Europe seems to have a better list. I don't know why we are getting shorted on this.

I'm surprized how many players are online in ps2 games. There is a crowd in ratchet uya, jax combat racing, and many others. Good games stay good games. They are fun to revisit.

You can't render ps2 games in true HD. If the info isn't there the emulator can't just invent it....it uses some sort of algorithm to fill in the missing info, just like scaling of SD to HD.

3D images and the like are made up of a certain amount of pixels, and that original pixel number is fixed no matter what the software does to it.

You can't render ps2 games in true HD. If the info isn't there the emulator can't just invent it....it uses some sort of algorithm to fill in the missing info, just like scaling of SD to HD.

3D images and the like are made up of a certain amount of pixels, and that original pixel number is fixed no matter what the software does to it.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Textures are fixed in resolution. That isn't going to change. But the actual 3D wireframes are just represented by points in 3D space. A space much larger than the 2D resolution of the rendering viewport. It is definitely possible to change resolution in an older game. The textures will still look blocky, but the objects themselves will be much smoother.

Seriously those look as good as they looked on my old SD CRT sans all the jaggies and I almost wanna say they look more detailed.


I know, it's pretty incredible, right? Imagine how many people would be clamoring for BC if it meant rendering all those 3D PS2 games in HD resolutions, while applying anti-aliasing and other RSX tricks to make the image cleaner. Once you see what the PC guys can do with access to GPU's, it's that much harder to swallow upscaled BC. Still, I have fun playing PS2 games and actually think they still look good, just not as good as when I played them on a CRT.

daschrier, Shape is 100% correct.

You can't render ps2 games in true HD. If the info isn't there the emulator can't just invent it....it uses some sort of algorithm to fill in the missing info, just like scaling of SD to HD.

3D images and the like are made up of a certain amount of pixels, and that original pixel number is fixed no matter what the software does to it.an extremely simple counterexample:

Draw a Euclidean line on a piece of paper and count the number of points on the line. Actually do not, for the set of points is uncountable.

Now translate that idea to more complex settings. Internal resolution is only bounded by processing capabilities.

I actually believe that most people buy a handful of Virtual Console games for nostalgia (hey! I loved this when I was a kid) and play it for a few minutes before realizing the deceiving power of nostalgia. It might be a little true, but I doubt that would keep people coming back to VC games. Most people don't buy just one.

I think Nintendo's done a pretty solid job of choosing games for VC release that are great games to play more than they are trips down memory lane.

But, yes, PS1/2 games are much more recent than many VC titles. The VC is cashing in on the current vogue for 8-bit aesthetics. '90s-era aesthetics haven't returned the way the the '80s have. But the PSP is doing better than ever, and what is that if not a portable PS1? Once more people are using PSPs, Sony had better have a strong retro PS1 library ready to go.