A relative of mines who lives in California purchased "cloned" Berklines at a 30% discount to the rates members typically get here through Roman. He says that they are of the same quality. I would like to understand more about which manufacturers and web retailers sell them and specifically how they may be of lesser quality than Berklines.

I think the term "the same quality" is very subjective and a key to the pricing. I also suspect that they are made in China that greatly brings cost down. You will also never be able to have all various options/cover choices/configurations/styles that Berkline offers today. The warranty and service also becomes very questionable.

Who are the manufacturers and retailers?

chiltown,

I have no idea. There are so many companies now that are knocking off major brands. Even Coasters are being knocked off by some guys who claim that their chairs are a better quality, but they offer no warranty. So make sure you compare apples to apples...

I am sure if you ask a relative of yours who purchased them already you may get more info...

With many things, there's always someone around who can make things cheaper and poorer, but rarely is there anyone who makes things cheaper and better.

With many things, there's always someone around who can make things cheaper and poorer, but rarely is there anyone who makes things cheaper and better.

How about cheaper and equal? Have you considered what would happen to pricing if the middleman (small furniture stores) were removed from the process and sales were direct to consumer? The average retailer gets 20% to 30% of the price which could be removed by a manufacturer providing equal quality.

I have no idea. There are so many companies now that are knocking off major brands. Even Coasters are being knocked off by some guys who claim that their chairs are a better quality, but they offer no warranty. So make sure you compare apples to apples....

I find it intriguing at some level that you say that there are lots of knockoffs yet you don't know of any, especially since you are in the business.

On my side of town, Bob's Discount Furniture sells his mattresses that are made by a famous "S" brand for at least half the price. Maybe using China as the label is a tactic to hide inflated prices related to branding.

If Bob can sell the same furniture without the expensive brand label, why can't this model be applied to home theater seating?

chiltown,

I can give you a list of the companies like 4seating, interiorexpress, solara, etc, etc, etc. All of them are using someone else designs and make the chairs in China. They put a different name on it, and sell it as a brand name. When I said "I have no idea" I meant I did not know (at least for now) a California company that knocks off the Berkline. Most of these Companies copy brand name designs, modify them slightly and offer them at aggressive pricing since they are made overseas. It is a known fact. I am not saying that these are not quality chairs and I am not justifying the higher cost of brand name Companies, but in many cases you get what you pay for. You also have to take into consideration warranty issues, service repairs, etc…

I do have to admit though, that overseas production is getting better and the products coming from China are becoming of a better quality than they used to be.

How about cheaper and equal? Have you considered what would happen to pricing if the middleman (small furniture stores) were removed from the process and sales were direct to consumer? The average retailer gets 20% to 30% of the price which could be removed by a manufacturer providing equal quality.
The internet could indeed take us in that direction. Many manufacturers are now selling direct on the internet, usually at regular street prices but that could change in the future. As a matter of fact, one that comes to mind that is designed for direct selling is the Outlaw line of components.

I am very patriotic in my dealings and prefer to not purchase from China. I would however be interested in seeing a way to purchase theater seating from Berkline but without the Berkline label. Why pay for branding?

I have to put in my 2 cents here. Roman stated a few facts previously, BUT what he left out is that HE stands behind his Berkline seats and does an AMAZING job at the Buttkicker set-up etc. I personally have recommended him to all my friends. The seats are the MAIN attraction in a beautiful theater. Super comfortable and I would hesitate to get a "knock-off" or anything else. Pay the 'little' extra and get the real thing. My butt smiles everytime i sit down

I couldn't agree more than Roman does a great job. In fact, I would love to see even more folks purchase from him. I believe that his opportunity for sales will increase if there is more transparency in discussions. For example, imagine if pricing for seating wasn't moderated. Folks would truly upfront see that his pricing is better than others and without having to make the effort to get a quote.

I also wouldn't want Roman to be displaced simply because there are many individuals who do purchase on price alone. Imagine if Roman could figure out a way to sell furniture made by Berkline but without the label with the same warranty. He could resist the China attack and the impeding Wal-Mart mindset that is going to hit the furniture industry.

I think bottom line as many members have found out (sometimes the hard way) is members get what they pay for. There are excellent values out there already in home theater seating however and sometimes one does pay more just for the brand name or in the case of the clones something becomes left out or sacrificed in the process. Members also pay for good service which is very often times overlooked completely. Many do in fact purchase on price alone and expect to be taken care of regardless but unfortunately this is not always the case.

Indeed nice to see the marketplace more competitive but a 20-30% discount does not totally reflect on an off brand name but cheaper or unwarrantied components used such as the recline mechanisms, etc. This affect the price more so than the brand name would in terms of budget to mid range seating options. Once one gets into the higher end then there is definitely a premium for the best of everything, regardless of brand name. Seating can be expensive and every option should be considered carefully.

Bottom line members should work within their budgets and find what is best for them within that budget. This about sums it up for most people. Hope this helps.

My butt smiles everytime i sit down

If you are "cracking a smile" every time you sit down, you may want to get a better belt ;)

I think bottom line as many members have found out (sometimes the hard way) is members get what they pay for.

Getting what you pay for could either be a good or bad thing. For example, if you compare a BMW 5-Series to a Prius, you could obviously see which is of the best quality. However, the answer is different if you look at value for the dollar spent.


Indeed nice to see the marketplace more competitive but a 20-30% discount does not totally reflect on an off brand name but cheaper or unwarrantied components used such as the recline mechanisms, etc.

Down the road where I live, there is a place where they make mattresses. They all have the same ingredients yet when you attach certain labels to them, the price changes. They all have the same warranty though which is interesting.

Serge, are you saying that Berkline uses lower quality parts when they don't put their own label on it? If someone is price shopping, which web sites should one avoid that carries clones?

Fact is that many companies clone others in the furniture business its been going on for years. Berkline actually in a way cloned premier seating, premier seating at one point had all their ht seating made by berkline including the 090chair that you see everywhere. Some say premier designed the 090 chair who knows what agreement berkline had with premier, at one point before the year 2000 there were probably just a few ht seating companies premier, acoustic innovations, and jaymar. Most seats at retail were $1500 a seat minimum. Then berkline saw how many seats that premier made with them and that got in the business of ht seating themselves. This changed the face of ht seating, now price points were at $650 per seat in 2002.. After that coaster a huge importer from china moved into the space about 2004 and made an 090 like chair for about $350 per seat, 999 for set of 3, showtime seating they called it. the point is that cloning is a way of life with furniture mfg, how many designs can you come up with for a chair, a chair is a chair is a chair, get the point.

Now berkline has a container direct program for dealers, all the 1 series theater seats are made in china by berkline. So you thought you were buying an american made chair, think not its made in china. Oh yeah by the way most fabrics by berkline even the seats ordered and made in the states are now sourced in textile mills in china. So berkline is made in tennessee has leather made in china and motors made in china if you buy power. So the line is blurry on whats made in usa or china now.

The bottom line its all economics based on competition, competition leads to lower prices, lower prices lead to low cost mfg and so on and so on. Who's to blame for all the sfuff made in china, not mfgs, not dealers but the american consumer. Consumers want low cost goods and will go down the street for the best price hence Walmart, Costco, Target you name it low cost department stores that sell everything including home theater seating and guess what its all made in China. The good old USA is becoming one big dealer organization with no manufacturing at all. Most mfg is off shore its really too bad in a way that we don't make anything here anymore. Our trade defecit increases monthly. We live in a global economy. Is it good for the middle class not really because mfg jobs are replaced by service sector jobs many people that worked at mfg for higher wages now work at walmart or costco for lower wages. These companies don't pay very well, they can't as they are all about low costs and low prices.

I guess what I am saying is don't sweat clones, all the mfg clone each other and they all are sourcing in China. Buy the best seats you can for the money is the bottomline. Low cost does not mean low quality anymore but it most likely will mean less choice. Yes you can order the import but you have very few choices. If you want to choose your config and your leather you still have to get it made in north america nearby, but this to will change as soon as china can crank it our quicker...the made to order biz will move their also.

Good luck
Alan Hutchinson
HTmarket

I find it intriguing at some level that you say that there are lots of knockoffs yet you don't know of any, especially since you are in the business.

On my side of town, Bob's Discount Furniture sells his mattresses that are made by a famous "S" brand for at least half the price. Maybe using China as the label is a tactic to hide inflated prices related to branding.

If Bob can sell the same furniture without the expensive brand label, why can't this model be applied to home theater seating?

Have you bought anything at Bob's? I have purchased a few couches there in the past, and I can assure you they are not of the same quality as similar couches at Jordan's, Cardi's or higher end places like Domain. Mine literally started falling apart after only a couple of years. My wife and I avoid Bob's like the plague.

Roman,Roman,Roman He's the Man!!!!!

Have you bought anything at Bob's? I have purchased a few couches there in the past, and I can assure you they are not of the same quality as similar couches at Jordan's, Cardi's or higher end places like Domain. Mine literally started falling apart after only a couple of years. My wife and I avoid Bob's like the plague.

Agreed. Everything we've ever bought from Bob's has fallen apart much more quickly than other "name brand" furniture we've had.

Have you bought anything at Bob's? I have purchased a few couches there in the past, and I can assure you they are not of the same quality as similar couches at Jordan's, Cardi's or higher end places like Domain. Mine literally started falling apart after only a couple of years. My wife and I avoid Bob's like the plague.

Bobs stuff is all made by Standard Furniture. I wouldn't purchase leather from them but the other stuff is actually OK as long as you get the goof proof warranty. Bob will replace even the cushions for five years.

My parents had a problem with one of their sofas and since they stopped making the model and didn't have a replacement cushion, he provided a brand new sofa.

If Bob did get into HT seating, I suspect he could beat Coaster pricing and most certainly Berkline.

Hard to believe anyone could beat Coaster pricing without selling absolute junk (or otherwise grossly inferior product). More often than not you get what you pay for. That said, I'm pretty happy with the little that I paid for my Coaster Studio seats.

Why do you think it would be difficult to beat Coaster pricing while still maintaining the same level of quality?

Have you considered how inefficient the supply chain for furniture is? Think about if someone figured out a way to get furniture shipped to the homeowner as it is unloaded from the boat coming from China instead of taking the container from China, sending it to a warehouse, who then sends it to the stores warehouse who then delivers to customer.

I suspect that if a clever business could optimize shipping, Coaster Showtimes could get as low as $700 for 3 while Berkline 090s could get down to $400 a seat in leather.

If you wanted to purchase a container full of leather sofas from China, did you know that you can get them for under $200 each. When they reach the store, this same models will retail for $1200...

chiltown,

What's up with your 1 man crusade against Berkline? Sure they are more expensive than Coaster but they are also much better quality and with a better warranty, especially the ones made in the USA.

Markups exist for everything. If you think markups are bad for recliners, don't even think about how little your mattress really costs...

Just my $.02

If you wanted to purchase a container full of leather sofas from China, did you know that you can get them for under $200 each. When they reach the store, this same models will retail for $1200...

Exactly why I said you're not going to get much lower pricing than what Coasters already are (through internet direct places like HT Authority). I paid $330 each delivered for mine. That leaves a whopping $130 left over for freight, dealer profit, and any overhead. Good luck trying to squeeze much more "efficiency" out of that business model.

Besides, with the falling US dollar and rising Chinese RMB (among other factors), Chinese made products may not remain so "cheap" (affordable) forever. Enjoy it while you can.

chiltown,

What's up with your 1 man crusade against Berkline? Sure they are more expensive than Coaster but they are also much better quality and with a better warranty, especially the ones made in the USA.

That must be some really good sh1t he's smokin'. :D

I agree the Berklines are nice and they come with configuration options, like curved or straight, loveseat, power recline, etc., etc. With the Coasters, your options are far more limited. I'm happy with my decision but I still recognize the value and quality the Berklines offer.

My comment regarding the cost to purchase sofas made in China never even mentioned Berkline, so I have nothing against them one way or another. I was merely indicating that the way the furniture supply chain works extremely increases the amount of markup on furniture.

Here is another analogy. If you have observed that BlockBuster and other movie rental places are being displaced by NetFlix and Redbox is because someone figured out creative ways to take expense out of the supply chain.

Coaster has only optimized the manufacturing process but not the supply chain itself. It would seem that a web site could automate the need for "quoting" which could remove additional expense out of the supply chain.

MLS' (AV123) business practice yields him creating his speakers in China. Some of the best bang for the buck (even in the $2500 range) speakers made...

-ELmO

If anyone is a subscriber to SmartMoney magazine, you can read a good interview of the Costco CEO and his plans to expand more into furniture. Hopefully, he will pursue home theater seating as the margins are better than traditional furniture...