I have analog cable, and due to the local price do not plan to upgrade until required by the cable company. Unfortunately the only way to get a DVR through them is to upgrade to digital, so that route is a no go. So, I have the single coax going into the back of the TV right now, as we do not need/have the cable box from them. Again trying to save a few pennies

While I have read all the reports on the various machines that have HDD included, that is more than I would like to spend for what will basically function as a VCR- - allow us to watch one station will recording another ~or~ record different stations at different times and dates unattended. Is there anything out there that fits this description? I would plan to use DVD RW discs as I would not be archiving any of the shows.

If there is not, then what advice is there on getting what will not be an obsolete HDD? My concern there is that I hear the format wars are continuing on blue ray vs high def, and I hate to end up with a machine that is on the wrong side of that battle when it settles. Also, I suspect that a dedicated player has better video output for those formats than an all-in-one recorder?

Thanks!

I don't think the newer dvd recorders with digital tuners will allow you to record one channel while watching another. The inconvenience of the coming analog shutoff next Feb (09)-of that ability is one of the downers for many of us. Unless someone comes up with a recorder with 2 digital tuners, we will be stuck needing a cable box and a recorder with digital tuner in order to watch one show on the cable box while recording a different channel with the recorder. :(
Here's the cheapest dvd recorder with a digital tuner (at the moment) that I can find. http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Toshiba-D-R550-Upconversion-DVD-Recorder-with-Built-In-Tuner-D-R550/sem/rpsm/oid/178516/catOid/-12876/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
Prices for many dvd recorders will most likely drop, or go on sale as we near Feb 2009.

Check out the Panasonic EZ-17. They're plentiful on ebay for around $50. That's cheap enough to get 2, solving your long term watch one, record another problem. Heck, you could record 2 and watch a third. And with a digital tuner, you'll likely find many digital channels you didn't know you had, even with your existing analog service.

Although there are tons of EZ-17's on ebay, read the descriptions carefully about the condition and any missing parts. I got mine from the best buy outlet on ebay, and it was practically mint and wasn't missing anything.

As long as your cable company is still providing the channels you want in analog format, you can use a single DVD recorder to record one channel while watching another. Use the DVD recorder to tune one channel (the one you're recording, of course), and use your TV to tune to the other channel! This assumes you're not getting any premium services which require a cable box.

The Panasonic recorders all (I think) can use DVD-RAM discs which behave basically like slow, removable hard disks with a 2-hour capacity in SP mode (or 4 hours in LP, which is still pretty good quality on the Panasonic units). They're perfect for timeshifting, because you don't have to re-format them... just delete a program after you watch it and are ready to record another one. The biggest problem is the limited capacity of the discs, but that's similar to the limitations of tape which you're presumably already familiar with.

I think Magnavox, Poloriod and some others also make DVDR's w/HDD for ~$150. I think there are threads on this forum talking about the features of each. Walmart seems to have a selection of cheaper units.
But if you could get a used Panny EZ-17 for ~$50, that would be my choice, assuming it was in good shape.

I don't think the newer dvd recorders with digital tuners will allow you to record one channel while watching another.

I think the OP meant to record one program on the recorder, while watching another on the TV, similar to what we did during the VCR days.

If you split the incoming cable, either with a RF signal splitter (one RF out to recorder, one RF out to TV) or using the RF pass-through of the recorder (RF out to TV, recommended), then you can record one program while watching another.

Digital tuners do not change this capability.

I think Magnavox, Poloriod and some others also make DVDR's w/HDD for ~$150. I think there are threads on this forum talking about the features of each. Walmart seems to have a selection of cheaper units.
But if you could get a used Panny EZ-17 for ~$50, that would be my choice, assuming it was in good shape.

The Best Buy Outlet store on ebay has Panasonic EZ-17 recorders that should be obtainable for around $75 (at least less than $100). I got mine there and it works great, but YMMV.

I think the OP meant to record one program on the recorder, while watching another on the TV, similar to what we did during the VCR days.

If you split the incoming cable, either with a RF signal splitter (one RF out to recorder, one RF out to TV) or using the RF pass-through of the recorder (RF out to TV, recommended), then you can record one program while watching another.

Digital tuners do not change this capability.
Yeah. I got stuck on thinking what's gonna happen next year. If you want to keep your old, but perfectly fine tv, you're going to have a headache when you want to record one show from digital cable, while watching another.

Ok, let me see if I have this straight, and if not please knock me up side the head, as that will probably happen anyway if I end up getting the wrong set up!;)

1. Since I currently have an analog signal without a cable box, I can use any recorder such as the referenced Panasonics as long as I split the signal and run into both the TV and recorder. This allows viewing on and recording another at the same time.

2. Once I transition to digital, as long as my recorder has a digital tuner, I can run a similar set up and still watch one and record another.

So, if I have this correct, how difficult is the programing on the referenced Panasonic? Can it be easily done by someone not technologically versed such as my wife? This will also run any recordable DVD without issues?

Also this will provide acceptable playback of regular rented DVD's?

Thanks!!!!!!!

^^
1-Correct.

2-Also correct.

3-Setting a timer recording is the same as on a vcr. Set channel, the date, then start time, then stop time. And rented dvds playback fine, though many prefer using a separate dvd player for playback, as it saves wear and tear on the recorder. But don't let that deter you.

DZ9-Not sure what you mean by your comment "This will also run any recordable DVD without issues?" But if you mean will the Panasonic's record to any recordable media, the answer is yes. About the only thing it won't write to would be BR or HD DVD's.

Also note you do not need a splitter to do what you want, unless your TV is RF only, and if that's the case you will need to buy a external RF modulator, or a DVDR/VHS with a built in RF modulator.

I have analog cable, and due to the local price do not plan to upgrade until required by the cable company. Unfortunately the only way to get a DVR through them is to upgrade to digital, so that route is a no go. So, I have the single coax going into the back of the TV right now, as we do not need/have the cable box from them. Again trying to save a few pennies

BTW, Tivos (and other standalone DVRs) can just take the coax in and record analog stations too. I realize this is more than you want to spend, but I'm actually using a Series 3 and a Tivo HD as analog cable recorders... (Because of 'lifetime transfer' offers for the service.)

I will eventually try to get an OTA cable or maybe even cablecards. These replace the cable box.

(I also have a Toshiba XS32, which I like many things about, but I would get rid of it much much sooner than I'd get rid of any of my Tivos.)

BTW, Tivos (and other standalone DVRs) can just take the coax in and record analog stations too. I realize this is more than you want to spend, but I'm actually using a Series 3 and a Tivo HD as analog cable recorders... (Because of 'lifetime transfer' offers for the service.)

I will eventually try to get an OTA cable or maybe even cablecards. These replace the cable box.

(I also have a Toshiba XS32, which I like many things about, but I would get rid of it much much sooner than I'd get rid of any of my Tivos.)

Ok, a quick question for you then the standalone DVRs such as Tivo, will they work just as well or better than a recorder? Can I utilize them effectively without the subscription fee? I notice that there are many on eBay, so what do I look for there?

And thanks for the prior clarification on media type by the prior poster, I was indeed asking if the recorder was sensitive and would only perform well with say Brand X, but not Brand Y.

Ok, a quick question for you then the standalone DVRs such as Tivo, will they work just as well or better than a recorder? Can I utilize them effectively without the subscription fee? I notice that there are many on eBay, so what do I look for there?

Can't burn a DVD, nor play prerecorded DVDs on a Tivo, just record and play.

Can't burn a DVD, nor play prerecorded DVDs on a Tivo, just record and play.Not on the newer, HD ones anyway.

But there were some older Pioneers, Toshibas and Humax's with TiVo that had DVD burners.

Ok, a quick question for you then the standalone DVRs such as Tivo, will they work just as well or better than a recorder? Can I utilize them effectively without the subscription fee? I notice that there are many on eBay, so what do I look for there?

Series 1 Tivos can work without a subscription, but I suggest that that is not the way to go.. (I have changed my mind on this, I originally bought a second series 1 long ago to use without a subscription -- but it ended up as actually having lifetime.. it was broken when I bought it.)

A Tivo without a subscription is *in some ways* worse than VCR-like programming. (In some ways it's still better -- more reliable, can obviously delete a recording WHILE it's recording..)

But I believe there is still a deal on where you *can* get a lifetime subscription on Tivos.. at least for one model. But it's like $700 total for hardware and lifetime I think. (Personally, I paid more than that for my Series 3 about a year ago.)

At least *averaging* the price of my S3 & TivoHD, I think it was worth it, and I won't have to pay a monthly fee again.

I love the Tivo UI.

I also frequent this forum because I have a Toshiba XS-32 to use along with my Tivos -- because the Tivo/DVD recorder combinations don't allow you to edit recordings before burning or burn in multiple sessions. But in retrospect, maybe I should have put up with that limitation in terms of reliability (XS32 dvd burner went bad).

2. Once I transition to digital, as long as my recorder has a digital tuner, I can run a similar set up and still watch one and record another.

Only with the (digital) channels that your cable company does not encrypt. This will probably mean only the local broadcast stations, plus maybe a few odds and ends, what they now call "lifeline basic" or "limited basic" or something like that. CNN, ESPN, TNT, etc. will probably be encrypted, as they are now on most digital cable systems.

To watch or record the encrypted channels, you'll have to rent a cable box or cable DVR, or buy a TV and recorder that accept a CableCard or its future equivalent. (And you'll have to rent the CableCard or whatever.)

But if you mean will the Panasonic's record to any recordable media, the answer is yes.

Jeff, could you list some of the types(DVD+RW, DVD-RAM, DVD-R, etc) that you have had success with, as well as what brands.(Panasonic, Imation, etc) I just won an auction for a Best Buy Outlet DMR-EZ17 and would like to know what would be best to stock up on. My local Office Depot has +RW 25 disc spindles of their own brand($9.99) and Memorex(12.99) on sale this week.

Danny in Yorktown, VA hoping to kick one of his dying VCRs to the curb in the very near future.

I personally have used many Office Depot discs. -RW's and -R's. I have also used -RW Maxell's and Verbatims.
For the -R's I have used in addition to OD, Verbatim, Philips, Maxell, and probably some others.
I really have not had problems with any brands. Now how long the discs will last is another thing. I get a little worried when people talk about DVD's going bad over time. Although my oldest DVD's are now approaching 4 yrs old, and so far all seem fine.
Many people speak well of TY discs. I personally have never tried any, but I'm sure they would also work fine in the Panasonic. Also note all speeds also seem to work. I have used up to 16X and they all record fine.
Note IMO Panny's like - media better than + media. I think the - media is more native to Panasonic. The older Panny's wouldn't even record to certain + media. The few times I used + media I had odd search problems. Either the search speed was too slow, or WAY fast(like 5min/second). Because of this I always try to stick to - media.
Note I think many people do not like Memorex media, at least that's what I have read here on AVS. I personally have not used any, and might tend to stay away from them from what I have read here.
I usually get my best prices on media at Office Depot, and have had good luck with them.

Jeff, thanks for the detailed information. I was leaning towards getting +RW (I'll be using this for time-shifting shows for later viewing and then erasing) because that is what my co-workers use in their DVD recorders. I think I'll start out with a small spindle of -RW to begin. I was reading on a Circuit City website for the DMR-EZ17 that one customer stated that you could only record digital broadcasts on DVD-RAM. I was hoping to record the unscrambled digital broadcasts of the local affiliates that my cable company is required to provide. The digital broadcast of CBS for example is much clearer/noise-free than the analog broadcast. The person said he found this information about needing DVD-RAM in the user's manual. I looked at the PDF version online and saw that DVD-RAM was needed when recording CPRM one time recording only shows. I don't know if that applies to regular network digital broadcasts. Have you or anyone else had to use DVD-RAM to record a digital broadcast?

The Panasonic recorders all (I think) can use DVD-RAM discs which behave basically like slow, removable hard disks with a 2-hour capacity in SP mode (or 4 hours in LP, which is still pretty good quality on the Panasonic units). One customer wrote on a Circuit City website for the DMR-EZ17 that DVD-RAM "MUST" be used when recording digital broadcasts. I read the manual(online) where he supposedly got his information but I saw where DVD-RAM must be used when doing a record once dealio(CPRM) of a digital broadcast. Are digital broadcasts of network TV shows(unscrambled on my standard cable service) set up so that they can only be recorded once?

Do you have a brand preference for DVD-RAM? Also, is there such a thing as a dual-layer DVD-RAM and if so will it work on DMR-EZ17?

In looking at Panasonic DVD-RAM available at Circuit City in a 5-pack, I see speed mentioned as 2-3x, version as 2.1. In other places I have seen other speeds(up to 5X, maybe 16X) and other versions mentioned. Do you happen to know which speed/version works best with a DMR-EZ17 or similar Panasonic DVD recorder.

One last question about DVD-RAM versus DVD + or - RW. Is it true that you can't delete just one show from a RW disc in order to free up space? That it's an all or nothing format/deletion? How long does a format take? Well, I guess that was three questions. :-)

Also, do RW or RAM discs have any wiggle room as far as recording capacity.(With most T-120 tapes, you can squeeze out 6hrs 10 minutes in EP mode) Many FX series often runs 62-63 instead of 60...so could I only fit one show in SP format on a disc?

The nice thing about +RW's is that they do not need to be finalized, to be playable on other DVD players. But note you still should "create top menu" which takes about as long(couple minutes) as finalizing a -RW disc. Also note I've tried 2 brand +RW's(Philips and CompUSA brand), and they both had awful search speeds. Either very slow(4x, or fast 10,000X(each second skips 5 min, just guessing on the 10,000 speed thing)) I'm gonna assume that all +RW's act this way in Panny's, but I have only tried the 2 brands personally. -RW's also reformat nicely for reusing hundreds of times, and the manual is confusing on this point, but YES you can finalize -RW's and then reformat them to reuse. I do it all the time.

No you don't need RAM's to record digital broadcasts. With RAM's you can record something that I have never ran into though, something called "copy once" programs. Also note if you record a WS program to anything but RAM's the wide screen bit will not be set, so if you play the resulting DVD back on a non WS TV, it will look vertically squished. I only have WS TV's, so it's not a problem for me, but if you borrow a DVD to a friend or you have such a TV, it might be a issue. Also note very few DVD players will play RAM's. Panny's, Toshiba's and a few others will. Keep that in mind also if you plan on RAM's. Oh and if you plan on getting into the whole "chase play" thing, RAM's are your only choice.

I only have a few Panasonic RAM's that came free with my recorders over the years. I've never heard of dual layer RAM's, but have heard of Double Sided RAM's, but never seen one(I think they must be rare). I really never use DL discs, They are so much more expensive than regular discs, and I've never seen RW DL discs. The nice thing with Panasonic is you can get up to 4hrs of pretty decent quality video, compared some other brands that look only good in the 2hr mode(IMO)

Not on the newer, HD ones anyway.

But there were some older Pioneers, Toshibas and Humax's with TiVo that had DVD burners.

No editing, though.

Jeff, could you list some of the types(DVD+RW, DVD-RAM, DVD-R, etc) that you have had success with, as well as what brands.(Panasonic, Imation, etc) I just won an auction for a Best Buy Outlet DMR-EZ17 and would like to know what would be best to stock up on. My local Office Depot has +RW 25 disc spindles of their own brand($9.99) and Memorex(12.99) on sale this week.

Danny in Yorktown, VA hoping to kick one of his dying VCRs to the curb in the very near future.

If you are going to record and play back on the EZ-17, then I recommend DVD-RAM discs. They allow chase play and play 1 program while recording another. They are more versatile than either +RW or -RW, IMHO.

I only have a few Panasonic RAM's that came free with my recorders over the years. I've never heard of dual layer RAM's, but have heard of Double Sided RAM's, but never seen one(I think they must be rare). I really never use DL discs, They are so much more expensive than regular discs, and I've never seen RW DL discs. The nice thing with Panasonic is you can get up to 4hrs of pretty decent quality video, compared some other brands that look only good in the 2hr mode(IMO)

Office Depot sells (or used to sell) double-sided DVD-RAM discs. I have a bunch, and they work well. I am still using them over a year after they were purchased. Unlike -R(W) OR +R(W) discs, "off-brand" DVD-RAM discs seem to be very reliable. I think Panasonic controls (through patents?) the method of production.

I agree if you're only going to play on the EZ-17, or have RAM compatible players the RAM's will save you time not needing to finalize, create top menu, etc. Also a advantage is they are supposed to be able to be reused 1000's and 1000's of times, compared to 100's and 100's of times with +-RW media. Another advantage is you can delete any thumbnail and gain back all the time, unlike RW's which you only gain time when you delete the last item on the list. I also wonder if RAM's are more stable, as far as archiving. I wonder if the guys that test there DVD's in a PC have noticed that RAM's tend to degrade less with time? I've read that they note many errors in R/RW media beginning in as little as 6 months after recording. Have you read that RAM's are more stable?

Office Depot sells (or use to sell) double-sided DVD-RAM discs.I wish the one here did, but I've never seen any kind of DVD-RAM's at all there. And I check everytime I go in there. The only store I can find them in anymore is Fry's, but the closest one to me is probably at least 40 miles away. Still, whenever I get out that way, I try to grab at least one pack. If you get the "data" ones from the computer media section, they're actually cheaper than the ones from the A/V one. They have to be re-formatted, but the Pannies will automatically do that - just takes a few extra seconds. I think I only paid like $6.99 for a 5-pack. They're 2-3X, and I believe those are supposed to be the best to use.

I bought Office Depot's house brand +RW's recently and have used them on my EH75V, and they work fine, although longevity remains to be seen. But I only bought them to re-record on anyway, and they were very cheap.

But if you've got a Panny, and you want something to re-record on, I'd suggest DVD-RAM also. Besides the other features, you get an estimated 100,000x, compared to RW's 1000x. Other than the compatibility issue, it's still the best.

Have you read that RAM's are more stable?I don't know if it was in the media thread here, but I think there were people who have said they are, based on tests or stuff they've read elsewhere. Supposedly much better for archiving.

Ramm, have you noticed the odd search thing on your Panny's? On all mine, the + discs have bad search speeds, although on the +R's, they search ok once they've been finalized. The +RW's I've tried never search good.

I wish the one here did, but I've never seen any kind of DVD-RAM's at all there. And I check everytime I go in there.

I think that you are right. I just checked the Office Depot on-line site and they do not list DVD-RAM. It appears that they have stopped selling them. Too bad.

Are digital broadcasts of network TV shows(unscrambled on my standard cable service) set up so that they can only be recorded once?

Channels that originate as over-the-air broadcast networks (NBC, etc.) should not flagged that way, but I think I've read about some cable companies doing it anyway by accident or whatever.

Ramm, have you noticed the odd search thing on your Panny's? On all mine, the + discs have bad search speeds, although on the +R's, they search ok once they've been finalized. The +RW's I've tried never search good.I really haven't used them much or paid attention so far. I'll have to sit down and do a comparison.

Thanks for the information so far, looks like consensus is a Panasonic DVR. For those of you that mention you have picked one up on eBay, what has been your experience? Are they in like new shape, just previously resturned? Or were they refurb? Also, I see both the E17 and E27 on there, any benefit to the 27?

I have not bought any of mine through ebay or such. The EZ-27 just adds HDMI output and upconversion. IMO in less you want to use the HDMI input or your TV, I'd save the money and use the component outputs on the EZ-17 the PQ is basically the same.

One thing to be aware of with double-sided RAMs is that most are cartridge type. They have to be manually turned over to acces the other side, and most computer drives do not accept the cartridges. Most of the DS carts these days do have removable media, though, so they can be read in the majority of drives.

I have not bought any of mine through ebay or such. The EZ-27 just adds HDMI output and upconversion. IMO in less you want to use the HDMI input or your TV, I'd save the money and use the component outputs on the EZ-17 the PQ is basically the same.

I agree with Jeff. I bought EZ-17 from the Best Buy outlet and it appeared new in the original box. I can't tell if it was a return (I assume that it was), but it is not a refurb. You places your bid, and takes your chances.

Actually I bought one EZ-17 AT a BB in town. It was on clearance for $117. I thought it was a very good deal. It was new in box. I think what happend is BB stopped carrying the EZ-17, and now only carries the EZ-27 (bigger markup I'd guess). So I think they are trying to get rid of all there EZ-17's.

I'll jump in & confirm the EZ17 using DVD-RAM discs is a good combination. The PQ when recording the non-encrypted HD channels is very nice in 2 hour mode, & pretty darned good in 4 hr mode also (depends how much motion is in the picture). I would like to have a HDD, but the EZ17 cost $150 brand new from Fry's when on sale. I'm not putting down any other brand, but Panny consistently gets positive comments about picture quality.