I am looking for a method to back up VHS tapes, in whole or in part, to a digital format with the least possible amount of image quality loss. Previously I was using a Lite-On VHS to DVD recorder in the highest quality, 1 hour mode. I am under the impression that a VHS to DVD recorder of some sort, as opposed to a PC capture card, is still the best choice. Once the videos are on DVD I can handle all the editing or whatever that needs to be done, if any. The VHS tapes I want to back up are either old family movies or old recordings (at least 5 years old mostly) off of TV. I like to grab some of the old commercials among other things. Nothing should have any sort of copy protection, and none of them are S-VHS that I am aware of (how would I check that?).

So, I am wondering which VHS to DVD recorder would provide the best quality transfer? I heard once that the kind with a built in HDD would allow the "uncompressed" video to be stored to the hard drive, so the conversion to MPEG2 DVD format would not have to be in real-time and could result in higher quality? Is this true? Other than that, is there really any difference in the quality between different recorder models?

Thanks a lot.

PS. One of my DVDs I recorded with the Lite-On drive failed to finalize correctly, and now no DVD drive, including the original recorder, will recognize it as even a valid disc, or a disc at all. Is there any way to recover the video? The disc had a bunch of short clips from different VHS tapes, so it would be a pain to go through them all again, and remember what I wanted to archive.

All the standalone DVD recorders that I've heard about encode directly to MPEG-2 in real time while recording, whether to DVD or to hard disk (HDD). If you do all the necessary editing on the unit's HDD, then do a "high-speed copy" to DVD (which basically copies the encoded MPEG-2 data without re-encoding it), that will preserve the image quality of the original recording on the HDD.

For archiving, you need to be careful not to do anything that involves re-encoding the MPEG-2 data, because it's a lossy compression method. When I convert MPEG-2 to DV format for editing on my Mac, then re-encode to MPEG-2 for a new DVD, I can see a difference in image quality. For some kinds of material, I can live with it, but I always keep the original files/DVDs in case I want to change something.

1. You'd know if they were S-VHS. For one thing, they'd be recorded on a special S-vhs tape, Another thing is that they wouldn't play on a standard VHS player, with good results.

2. jtbell is correct, you're not going to get any better PQ using a DVDR w/hdd for a straight VHS to digital copy.

3. I personally like Panasonic DVDR's for best PQ. IMO the 1,2 and even up to FR 3 hr speeds look almost as good as the original source, and if the source is VHS, lots of people agree the resulting DVD will actually look better than the original VHS.
In the case of VHS source, I have even used 4hr LP speed, but note if there is lots of fast movement in the source, keep an eye out for Macroblocking.(picture will break up into little squares). If this is the case, use a faster speed.

For your project you could use a Panasonic EZ-37 or 47(5). They will be >$250 (try Costco if you have a membership). They both have a DVDR and VHS(note the VHS is also quasi S-complaint. This means if the program is in S-VHS it will play it back, although not in the S-VHS quality, only regular quality.)
If this is too much for your liking, you could get a Panasonic EZ-17, which is <$200 and omits the VHS.
You could also spend ~$100 and get a cheaper Walmart type DVDR machine. If you stick to the 2hr speed you may also get results you like(I personally don't)

4. As far as your Lite-on DVD, I would think a PC would be your only hope. Unfinalized DVD's normally only play in the brand of player that they were recorded on. And as far as I know Lite-on no longer produces standalone DVDR's. DVD's are very unstable until they've been finalized, and if they're going to fail, it's usually during finalizing, at least that's what I have found.

If you want to do things like"grab commercials" or "short clips" like you mentioned, you are going to need either a DVD recorder with HDD or at the very least a DVD recorder that can use DVD-RAM discs (i.e. Panasonic). Trying to archive short clips *directly* to DVD -/+R media will give you a migraine, because once its on the disc you can't do anything with it. Using a hard drive recorder, you can trim the clips precisely on the HDD, add chapter marks, add a custom thumbnail to each clip, and accumulate them randomly until you're ready to burn the DVD-R archive disc, at which point you can create a custom playlist.

If you can't find an HDD-equipped DVD recorder, the next best solution is to record direct to DVD-RAM discs, which operate similarly to a HDD. They allow all kinds of editing and the discs are interchangeable among any DVD-RAM drives. In fact, if you're serious about archiving the ideal machine is an HDD equipped recorder which burns BOTH DVD -/+ R and DVD-RAM. (Recent Pioneers and older Panasonics). You can make a DVD-R disc for wide compatibility with standard DVD players, and also a DVD-RAM disc of the same material which you can reserve for future non-destructive editing (material on DVD-RAM can be copied back to the HDD without re-encoding.)

If you're really, REALLY serious about archiving the best method recommended here is to use a PC and capture the VHS to DV format. This will allow endless highest-quality non-destructive editing until you make a DVD-format re-encode. Hold onto those original DV files, and you'll have the ultimate archive format.

If you want to do things like"grab commercials" or "short clips" like you mentioned, you are going to need either a DVD recorder with HDD or at the very least a DVD recorder that can use DVD-RAM discs (i.e. Panasonic). Trying to archive short clips *directly* to DVD -/+R media will give you a migraine, because once its on the disc you can't do anything with it. Using a hard drive recorder, you can trim the clips precisely on the HDD, add chapter marks, add a custom thumbnail to each clip, and accumulate them randomly until you're ready to burn the DVD-R archive disc, at which point you can create a custom playlist.

If you can't find an HDD-equipped DVD recorder, the next best solution is to record direct to DVD-RAM discs, which operate similarly to a HDD. They allow all kinds of editing and the discs are interchangeable among any DVD-RAM drives. In fact, if you're serious about archiving the ideal machine is an HDD equipped recorder which burns BOTH DVD -/+ R and DVD-RAM. (Recent Pioneers and older Panasonics). You can make a DVD-R disc for wide compatibility with standard DVD players, and also a DVD-RAM disc of the same material which you can reserve for future non-destructive editing (material on DVD-RAM can be copied back to the HDD without re-encoding.)

If you're really, REALLY serious about archiving the best method recommended here is to use a PC and capture the VHS to DV format. This will allow endless highest-quality non-destructive editing until you make a DVD-format re-encode. Hold onto those original DV files, and you'll have the ultimate archive format.

I already have made DVDs of several short clips, and I am indeed able to do stuff with it. I try to keep the videos in MPEG2 format to prevent quality loss. What exactly is "DV format"? I know there are DV tapes but I didn't realize the format could be read on standard PCs.

I bought a Panasonic DMR-EZ37V. It was kind of expensive at $280.

Fortunately, Target claims I can try it and return it if I don't like it, with no penalty.

Good luck SkiDragon, IMO the EZ-47's not going to gain you much. I think only the HDMI upconversion, which IMO is not worth too much. Use the component, or at the lease S-video outputs for best PQ.

Good luck SkiDragon, IMO the EZ-47's not going to gain you much. I think only the HDMI upconversion, which IMO is not worth too much. Use the component, or at the lease S-video outputs for best PQ.

You've seen a VHS player with component outs? Personally, I would just use composite or S-video. I do agree with the DV post above.

Honestly, I'm just going straight VHS to DVD single layer. I don't see what I would gain other than wasting money on a dual layer disc. The quality of DVD IMHO is so much better than most of my recorded VHS tapes I could actually lower the quality of the DVD (from 2 hrs to 4 or 6 hrs) and it wouldn't look any worse.

SkiDragon:

I already have made DVDs of several short clips, and I am indeed able to do stuff with it. I try to keep the videos in MPEG2 format to prevent quality loss. What exactly is "DV format"? I know there are DV tapes but I didn't realize the format could be read on standard PCs.

Short clips is not really something direct-to-DVDR was designed for. Yes, if you use RW discs and VR format you can play around a bit with editing but they are incompatible with the majority of standard DVD players out there. You also run the risk of the disc crashing and dying on the 20th clip, forcing you to redo the entire thing. Not fun. Pre-recording to a recorder with HDD or to DVD-RAM is just better if you are going to encode straight to MPEG2- DVD format.

DV format is what tape camcorders use and what software like Apple's iMovie uses. This format takes up more space on a PC than DVD format, but has huge advantages: each frame of the video is complete in itself which is much more conducive to editing and using filters, transitions, etc. because little or no re-encoding is required to do it. Quality is preserved, and if you keep the raw file stored away you can perform endless revisions on the material whenever you want. When you need a DVD, you just author one and burn it.

If you transfer your VHS direct to DVD format, it is stuck forever as a compressed MPEG2 file and any further edits or changes will force re-encodes and quality compromises. This is actually fine for most VHS transfers because the point is usually to make a DVD and get rid of the tapes to reclaim storage space in your home. Generally you are not going to re-edit such transfers. But if you are very ambitious and think you may rework the material in future, you'll want to consider capture to DV on a PC as the master format.

So, how would I convert directly to DV format? With a PC capture card? I heard that the quality on many capture cards is pretty bad, but I guess there must be some good ones out there. I keep the original DVDs around, and I have been using a program called Mpeg2cut2 to cut the clips I want, which supposedly does it losslessly. I am stuck cutting to the nearest "key frame" or whatever, but I can deal with it.
Is there a way to convert DVDs or MPEG2s to "DV" format? What file extension is DV, because I have never actually seen a file in that format before.

I don't have an HDTV, but I do use component when possible. Also, I realize the risk of the DVD screwing up, since it has already happened to me, but I just have to take my chances.
Thanks.

Ok, this DVD recorder is really no good, in my opinion. First of all the quality seems to be a little worse than the Lite-On I was using before. Perhaps not with a still image, but while a video is playing, it looks choppier, at least on my computer.
Second, for my purposes it is totally useless. The Lite-On made a DVD with VOB files that functioned as simply long MPGs with all the clips end to end. This Panasonic DVD recorder makes a separate VOB file for each clip, which would be fine except that for some bizzare reason, if I play the VOB file by itself in a program like VLC, it skips a large section of the middle of the clip. It plays through the menu, but even there it freezes a bit in the same place. I have no idea why it does this.

Is there a DVD recorder that makes long, normal VOB files like the Lite-On?

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~adonald/video/

Here is an example if you want to do me a big favor. beast.MPG is a video I took from the Lite-On DVD recorder. I cropped it so it is only the commercial.

VTS_02_1.vob is taken straight from the DVD recorded on the new Panasonic recorder, and contains the same commercial, but is not cropped. This file does a weird skipping thing on most programs I try to use to play it. Try VLC for an example. Is there a way to get rid of this weird skipping phenomenon? I know the whole video is there because some programs, such as Mpeg2cut2, can see the whole thing.

Also, I am trying to decide which has the best image quality. Any thoughts?

Maybe this could be indicating a "broken timecodes" issue? I don't fully understand how this affects mpeg2 files, but I have seen similar symptoms to what you describe. Try tracking down a freeware app called MPEG Streamclip. In there, you will find a menu item "Fix Timecodes" (to get this thing running, you will also have to fuss with Quicktime components and mpeg2 lib, as part of the installation, of course- it's all explained in the installer instructions...). Anyways, when you run the Fix Timecodes operation on your vob file, it does some sort of hocus-pocus on it, and hopefully missing segments will be properly accessible, again. You will notice this when you see the indicated program time change from an unusually low value to a normal/expected value.

My friend recorded a Laserdisc to DV. I think he connected the LD player S-Video out to his Sony Handycam. I don't know which model Sony, but can find out. So if you have an S-VHS recorder with S-Video out you can probably do a direct to DV recording. Then keep this as your master digital copy. I guess you can then copy that to your PC via firewire.

Maybe this could be indicating a "broken timecodes" issue? I don't fully understand how this affects mpeg2 files, but I have seen similar symptoms to what you describe. Try tracking down a freeware app called MPEG Streamclip. In there, you will find a menu item "Fix Timecodes" (to get this thing running, you will also have to fuss with Quicktime components and mpeg2 lib, as part of the installation, of course- it's all explained in the installer instructions...). Anyways, when you run the Fix Timecodes operation on your vob file, it does some sort of hocus-pocus on it, and hopefully missing segments will be properly accessible, again. You will notice this when you see the indicated program time change from an unusually low value to a normal/expected value.

This seemed to do the trick. Thanks. However, I do not know how to save the fixed VOB file. If I just use "Save as", it seems to save the identical file with the broken timecodes. "Convert to MPEG" (which shouldn't actually convert anything, right?) made a .mpg file that plays correctly in VLC but still not in Windows Media Player. Still, it might be acceptable. Any tips?

Using "Convert to Headed MPEG" seemed to do the trick. I took a test video that I had captured with both my new and old DVD recorder, and compared the resulting, cropped video clips. They looked very close in quality, and perhaps the Panasonic looked a little better, although it had a weird VHS artifact in the lower left corner. I then uploaded this clip onto YouTube to compare it to the upload from the Lite-On recorder. For whatever reason, YouTube really screwed with the quality of the new clip, and the old Lite-On clip looks much nicer, on YouTube at least. Check it out if you would:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o7gCJpvw6M

Is there a good way I can pre-process my clip so that it looks just as good on YouTube? I want a good "archive" file, but it would also be nice for the uploads to look nice.

Glad you found a solution, as you were going to the next step which I had no experience to offer. My particular uses went to the demux route, so I had never encountered what you described.

Sounds like you need to move to a full-featured transcoder software to do the preprocessing you describe. I don't have much experience with recommended software in that area, but there is a software I have been playing around with past couple of weeks. It is still in a very early stage of development, so you will need some patience with bugs and generally fussy nature. It is quite versatile, once you have it figured it out, though. Try looking up freeware called MediaCoder. There are configurations for making adjustments to the video prior to actual encoding. I have no idea how ironed out there are, or if they are functional (the intent of the development is there, though).

Alternately, you may look into freeware software called VLC. That has similar transcoding and alteration functions.

I spent a while looking up how to upload high quality videos to YouTube and how to trick the system so that my video wont be recompressed.

Then I looked at the video I uploaded again, and it seems to be better quality. It seems that YouTube initially put up a lower quality video, and over the past 24 hours reconverted it to make it better. It's very strange, but good news I suppose.

I believe I've heard it here(somewhere)...that acrhiving onto DVD is not really archiving in the strictest sense.

Taking that to heart, I have a bunch of old SVHS, VHS and 8MM tapes I want to preserve, so I bought a DAC-200, and saved the footage to .avi files on a hard drive I set aside for that purpose. The files were larger than if I had put the footage directly on to DVD's, however my editing software plays much better with avi files. The unedited files stay on hard drives until I want to put something together for family or friends. I just gather the assets in my editing program, add transitions, effects, and a menu, then burn to DVD.

Dont much like archiving to DVD...but I have used DVD-RAM to archive some of the avi files from captured tape footage.

jock

When using the front panel control for copying on a DMR-EZ37 (or other current model Panasonic combo recorder) the video tape plays until a videotape index mark or real or imagined program break is encountered. The videotape stops and the DVD recording stops at that point. The videotape rewinds briefly. Then the videotape starts playing and the DVD recording restarts as a new “title.” This is an annoying feature.

Here are two workarounds. Both require connecting an external VCR to an INPUT.

I suggest making a notation of the real-time duration of the recording you wish to copy before you start.

Workaround #1. With the REC MODE button set the recording speed you wish to use. Play the videotape on the external VCR, then start recording from the INPUT with the DMR-EZ37. You may command preset recording periods of 0:30, 1:00, 1:30, 2:00, 3:00, or 4:00 by additional presses of the REC command while recording. You may wish to set those preset recording periods when your item's remaining playing time coincides with any of those recording durations.

Workaround #2. Program a “scheduled” recording, with or without Flexible Recording, where you will play the videotape on the external VCR during the scheduled recording period you have specified. Remember to select the correct INPUT as the channel to be recorded in the Schedule menu. Be sure to program a couple of extra minutes into the ending time. Remember that the DMR-EZ37 will only start scheduled recordings when the machine is powered off (standby). Watch to see when the DMR-EZ37 powers itself on. You may watch the TV beginning at that point. Notice that the DMR-EZ37 powers on in the "pause recording" phase. One minute later the DMR-EZ37 will actually start recording. At that time start the videotape playing on the external VCR. You may revise the ending time in the Schedule menu during recording, unless you have set up a Flexible Recording.

These procedures provide seamless recordings and restore control of the DMR-EZ37 to you.

These procedures may also be used with Panasonic DVD recorders without VHS sections.

Digado,
On my es-30 I can just play the VHS, and record on the DVD from the TP input. I do this all through the remote. Not using the front panel buttons. Nothing starts and stops by itself. Are you saying with the new EZ's w/VHS that they cannot be setup to copy a tape in this manor? Without this automatic start/stop thing.

Note even though it can be easily done this way on the es-30, I still generally use a external VCR, since I find juggling the VHS and DVD's pause and scan buttons with the one remote can be tedious. I like one remote for each device, but it can be done on the es-30.
Note I never really got into the one button dub that is on the front of my es-30, I rather chose to play, then record with the remote.

Jeff,

In my project dubbing around 5,200 titles from videotape to DVD I used menu initiated dubbing/copying (entered through the FUNCTIONS button on DMR-ES30V and DMR-ES35V remotes) for perhaps 85% of these recordings. The other 15% utilized external VCRs with one or the other of the "workaround" methods described in my earlier post.

FUNCTIONS menu initiated dubbing/copying makes it simple to set up Time Limited dubbing/copying and/or Flexible dubbing/copying that provide for seamless recordings.

Panasonic did not continue these features into current model combo recorders.

Perhaps the current model combo recorders may be set to copy with the method you suggest, but it is not mentioned in the PDF versions of current combo recorder Operating Instructions found on the Panasonic Support website.

As my dubbing project was concluded in September--before I read your earlier post describing the procedure--I have not had occasion to try this out for myself on my Panasonic combo recorders.

Five of the combo recorders used in my dubbing project have between 2,250 and 4,200 hours of recording (averaging around 3,000 recording hours per machine). While still functional, all five will have been set aside for servicing and standby use in the next few days. The last two still in current use will be replaced by another DMR-ES35V and a DMR-ES15 that I have used very little.

Jeff,

My DMR-ES30V and DMR-ES35V are full-featured combo recorders that have served me well, especially when I have made huge demands of them.

As I have already begun the move into the digital tuner era with my DMR-EZ17 and a new 19" LCD HDTV in my home office, I am pondering a different utilization scenario in the next generation of DVD recorders.

I am just now starting to look at the threads dealing with the Philips DVDR3575H. I have seen that you find that the Philips does not quite equal the picture quality found with Panasonics. I assume that your comparison is of same-speed recordings. I am especially interested in any observations you care to make concerning color reproduction at LP, the four hour per DVD speed, or black and white reproduction, at the six hour per DVD speed. And is it possible to record to hard drive at one quality level, say SP or LP, and copy this material to DVD at a different quality level, say at the six hour per DVD speed? Or is the six hour per DVD speed, even with black and white program material, of an inferior picture quality with the Philips?

I will appreciate any comments you care to make.

And is it possible to record to hard drive at one quality level, say SP or LP, and copy this material to DVD at a different quality level, say at the six hour per DVD speed? Or is the six hour per DVD speed, even with black and white program material, of an inferior picture quality with the Philips?
Any dubbing from one rec speed to another, will be done in real time-the actual length of the program. So if you record to the hdd in SP mode, and want to dub to a disc in LP mode, it will be a real time dub, and the picture quality will take a hit as it's re-encoded in the new rec mode.

So yes, it's poissible, but time consuming, and yields pic quality less than the original. High speed dubbing material from the hdd to disc, in the program's recorded speed is best/recommended.

Why must you use DVD? A $20 capture card for your PC will archive VHS much more elegantly than DVD.

Digado,
I personally did not think the PQ of the 3575 equaled any of my Panny DVDR's. I just didn't see the depth and resolution I had come to expect with them. Now I'm not saying the 3575 is bad, and recording off of a digital HD channel produced some very good PQ recordings, I might even say better than the same program recorded off of a SD channel on any of my Panny's. But IMO recording the same program on my EZ-17(or older ES machines fed the HD lite signal from the EZ machines tuner, via S-out) produced a superior picture. Now this is SP for SP, where I believe the Philips really suffers is anything below the SP speed. There is a noticeable drop in resolution on the Philips on all speeds below SP. I believe Panasonic is the only mfg. that produces full resolution on speeds above SP, all the way up to 4hr LP. Note this produces a side effect with the Panny's, most noticeable is macroblocking on fast moving objects, but assuming more stationary images, the Panasonic LP PQ IMO cant be beat.

Now I really don't record a lot of B & W material, and never was able to record any on my 3575, before giving it to my father, I sure know the Panny's can sure produce some very fine B&W recordings, even on the LP speed.
Note my father really loves the 3575. He records a LOT, and I believe using the 6hr speed every time I ask. He mostly records talk shows and was using mostly EP8 on his previous Panny's. He has a 20" Vizio, and sits 10'? from the screen. (I always detest when he gives me something to watch from any of his machines, it really looks poor to me), but I guess he's satisfied. To each his own.

Another thing you may miss about the 3575 is the lack of a 8hr speed. My father was kinda bummed about this, until I told him that he could still fit 168hrs of 6hr speed on the HDD. Note depending on your preferences you may really like the 3575, I think it's worth a try. With the great return policy of Walmart, you have nothing to loose. I think you'll like the operation of the Philips compared to the Panny's. They have some nice features not found on Panny's, and having never had a DVDR w/HDD I really loved it on the 3575. Too bad Panasonic is refusing to make a HDD DVDR w/ASTC digital tuner. I would really think about Canada, but the digital tuner is a MUST for me on any future purchases.
I think until that time I will be purchasing some of the new digital tuner boxes and will try hooking them up to the S-input of some of my older ES machines. I'm hoping to get similar PQ as on my EZ-17. I really like the WS part of the new ASTC tuners, and I really dislike recording off of SD channels anymore, having gotten used to the HD lite recordings made on my EZ machine(as flaky as it is). Note I am only OTA, and all my local channels have a HD equivalent, except for a few that I don't really record off of.

Note another thing you may like about the 3575 is it's ability to record to HDD, then edit material deleting commercials etc. and then high speed copying to a DVD with no loss in PQ. As Westly said, you must keep the speed the same for HS copying, so you cannot say record HQ to the HDD, and then change the speed to SP for the DVD, unless you record in real time, and that will produce picture degradation.

One last note about PQ. Even recording SD material on the 3575 I would say it's no worse than any other DVDR I have used in the past(and actually better using a HD channel for source). Before I purchased my Panny's I tried many brand recorders. Ilo, Cyberhome, Lite-on, Sony, LG and yes even Pioneer. I really prefered the PQ of Panasonics, which is why I have stuck with them over the years. Note from reading peoples results with Pio's I have to wonder if maybe I got a bad unit, I only tried the one from Sams club about 4yrs ago, and I believe it was just a DVDR w/no HDD. I probably only had it a day before exchanging it for the Panny ES-30, which I was more than satisfied with. And it's been all Panny's from there on, except for my brief use of the Philps 3575, where I really gained a appreciation for a HDD in a recorder.

The earlier Pio's only had so-so PQ (except maybe those $1000.00 - $1800.00 TiVo models). They really only started getting to where they are now about 2 or 3 models back. Yours might have been from just before then. Being Sam's Club, that model could've been hanging around there for a long time, as that last (and probably only) VCR/DVD recorder Pio sold had been, up until a couple of years back. That thing was on their shelves for a few years at their store here by me. I think it was because they were stuck with such a huge stock of them that they couldn't sell because that thing had to have been the ugliest recorder ever made (there had to be piles of them that never seemed to get any smaller in all that time). Actually, it might even have had a small hard drive, but that still didn't make it any more attractive. I don't think it was even made by the same manufacturers that made their other DVD recorders. I think it was bought from someone else and rebranded, just so they'd have some kind of VHS/DVD model out there. And as far as I know, it was only available at Sam's. The only good thing I ever heard about it was that a couple of people here said that the VCR had pretty good PQ. I think it got down to around $198.98, or maybe even under, and it still couldn't sell.

Yes Ramm you are describing it to a tee. Note normally I'm not one that really cares what a devices looks like, I care more about how it records, but none the less it was very ugly, and I remember they had been at Sams for a year or more. From the way people talk about Pio's I couldn't believe they would have all recorded like the one I tried. Good to know if Pioneer ever comes back to the US, and has a ASTC tuner and HDD(not holding my breath though), I might give them a try again. Do you know if Pio's keep there full resolution at the LP(4hr) speed? That's what really sold me on the Panny's, although lately I try and not go above about 3hrs in FR mode if PQ is of most importance due to the fact I'm more aware of the macroblocing thing.

No, I don't know that much about the Pio's. But since I don't have one, that would also be at the top of my list if they, as you say, come out with new HDD models with digital tuners.

There are plenty of recent US/Canadian/International model owners here that should be able to answer that.

Yes, Pioneer DVD recorders keep the same resolution all the way out to LP (4 hour) speed. Mostly in answer to the obsessive Panasonic owners who made such a big noise when Panasonic heavily promoted this arguable feature awhile back. LP at "full" resolution looks like macroblocked crap to most people on a flat screen display, while LP at "half" resolution appears softer but runs smoother depending on the source. Either one is a compromise and a definite matter of personal taste, some people are more sensitive to either blocks or softness. The mfrs should really let you choose the resolution setting yourself so you can match it to the material you're recording. But that would be too easy, right?

No matter what Panasonic or anyone else says, standard-def DVD-R craps out at about SP+ speed (135 mins or so), beyond that it rapidly becomes unwatchable on an LCD display. Some older recorders dropped to half D1 resolution at roughly the 155min speed, this sometimes made a surprisingly decent recording. But this was also three years ago when you could still buy a nice Sony Trinitron Wega 27" CRT that would conceal lots of digital nasties: todays LCD screens are a horror show with anything less than downrezzed HDTV. If you can ignore blocks and noise to concentrate on the actual recording, good for you, you'll be happier than most.

Thanks CitiBear, I agree a switch would be the easy answer. To me I much prefer the full resolution, but am conscious to use a faster speed depending on source material. Also for whatever reason recording off of a digital HD channel on my EZ-17 I am able to utilize LP more often than the same machine recording off of a SD channel. For whatever reason the higher resolution of the source seems to cut down on macroblocking and produce a much cleaner picture.
Of course I realize many other people must have different opinions of PQ, otherwise why would every other mfg. of DVDR's(except Panny and Pio.) cut resolution on speeds above SP. I can't believe there would be a cost difference in the 2 methods. I guess if there was a lot of fast movement maybe a LP recording on a say Sony, might actually look better than a LP of the same program on a Panny. In this case I would use a faster speed, but again a person would have to make the conscious decision depending on source, and maybe mfg's think most people would not be able to make that decision, so they do it for them, by limiting resolution by the speed.

What dvd/vhs recorder would you recommend if you want to archive a bunch of old 6 hour vhs tapes.I realize quality will be poor but if I can at least see it on the dvd without it blurring out I will be happy.The vhs source is not so great with slp as speed but if dvd looked as good as slp I would be okay with it.I will be viewing it on a 5 year old pioneer 433cmx plasma. thanks Matt

I believe most any DVDR is capable of the 6hr speed, and on that speed, which should equal or be better than VHS SLP, I would think most any DVDR should be equal quality. Depending on your price range, some Panny's have a built in VCR, otherwise you can just use any VCR to feed the recorder's line input. Note depending how full you filled your 6hr tapes, they may actually be 6hrs 5+ min, in which case you would need to use a DVDR which could record a little longer than 6hrs. I believe most 6hr recorders only record very close to 6hrs, not much more. Panny's can record up to 8 hrs, or any speed between 6 and 8hrs using flexible record mode. Other DVDR's may also have something similar, but it's something to look out for.

I believe most any DVDR is capable of the 6hr speed, and on that speed, which should equal or be better than VHS SLP, I would think most any DVDR should be equal quality.

An original DVD recording at a 6 hour speed would probably look better than a VHS SLP original recording. But, recording a SLP VHS to DVD at 6 hour speed will definitely look a lot worse than the VHS SLP original. I'd at least split the 6 hours over two DVDs. If the SLP tape was anything I cared about, I'd record it at SP.

Good point Kjbawc, I was more comparing originals like you said. I would too, or use FR3 on a Panny for very good PQ, but maybe OP isn't too concerned with PQ, in which case 6hr speed should work ok.

I think I should point out, if someone hasn't mentioned it yet, that the mechanism producing quality loss going from VHS SP to VHS SLP, is completely different than the mechanism producing quality loss in DVDs going from XP to EP6. A result of this difference is, even though you think the original quality is poor, and you don't expect to notice a further decline in quality using a 6hr DVD format, you might be surprised at just how much worse the DVDs look than the tapes. I think you need to do a few test cases, especially with content that has a lot of movement/action. You might need to revise your plan to use the 6hr quality. With the cost of disks being about $0.30 each, and the size being so much smaller (thinner) than tapes, I don't see the advantage of jamming so much material on a single disk.

With the cost of disks being about $0.30 each, and the size being so much smaller (thinner) than tapes, I don't see the advantage of jamming so much material on a single disk.

Also, DVD and CD cases that will hold two discs in the same thickness space as one are easy to come by. So, you can split something in to two DVDs, but still keep them in one case.

It seems that most people consider the Panasonic brand VHS>DVD recorders to be the best quality. As I mentioned, I wasn't very happy with the one I purchased, mainly because the VOB files were unreadable by standard media players on my PC, and because I thought the video quality was marginal, at least on the bottom of the videos, and in some cases introduced static that didn't show up on a VCR.

So, I guess my question is, what is the SECOND best brand of VHS>DVD recorder? I don't expect there to be a common answer, but I am curious what people think.

Thanks.

It seems that most people consider the Panasonic brand VHS>DVD recorders to be the best quality. As I mentioned, I wasn't very happy with the one I purchased, mainly because the VOB files were unreadable by standard media players on my PC
Which media players do you have on your pc? I've had no problems playing dvd -Rs or -RWs recorded on my Panny E85 or ES30 with Windows Media Player, or, Realplayer & InterVideo WinDVD.

Its not the DVD as a whole, but the individual VOB files that do not play right. They are missing timecodes or something.

So, I guess my question is, what is the SECOND best brand of VHS>DVD recorder? I don't expect there to be a common answer, but I am curious what people think.Toshiba, maybe?

For archiving family vhs tapes I'm now using the Toshiba RD-XS35 with HDD and the DNR filters that remove chroma noise. Those filters really make a visible difference.

I think that really any DVD Recorder that works should be able to make very decent recordings from VHS tapes at 1 hr. or 2 hr. speed. Why would you want to go beyond that for archival purposes anyway?

Well, I bought an RCA recorder, but after reading the reviews of it online I think I am going to return it before even trying it. So Toshiba seems to be a good choice. Any others?

Toshiba, maybe?

i bought the toshiba dvd-600 at xmas to convert my old vcr and hi 8mm tapes to dvd.

my unit will tape for 1 1/2mins, some tapes upto 5 mins, then i get an error mesage that the tv video input has changed, the dvd recorder counter goes back to zero

the unit has gone back twice already , and next week when toshiba sends me the prepaid ups stamp (i refuse to pay shipping again) , it goes back for the 3rd time...

DONOT BUY TOSHIBA....

I am mainly worried about recorded picture quality. If Toshiba does this well then I will risk an unreliable unit. I can always return it if I have to. Any other recommended brands?

I have tried a Toshiba recorder a little bit. I do not have access to a remote, but I did test just the VHS playback quality. The only specific complaint is that it seems to blue out the screen whenever fast forwarding or reversing. This makes it impossible to scan for things in the video quickly. I am pretty sure it is not my TV doing this? Is there a way to stop this?

Is there another recommended brand? How are the Samsung or Sony recorders?
Thanks.

The blue screen is due to the recorder seeing all the snow(scan bars) on the screen and blanking out the recording. I get this also when going through my Sima filter, but do not get this when going direct VHS to DVD with separate units. It's a major pain since as soon as you scan you can't see where you are! If my movie is CP'd I have to live with it, if not I remove the Sima from the link and I can scan again.
As far as brands the only ones I personally care for are Panasonics but wouldn't really suggest there new EZ line for VHS to DVD. I think the ES-30 was the last good combo they made, otherwise I'd go separates. Just my personal opinion.

The Toshiba I am using is the D-VR600, which is a combo VHS>DVD recorder. I got it for pretty cheap, but it did not come with a controller, and none of my four universal remotes seem able to control the thing at all. The front panel buttons are so limited that I can't even record from VHS to DVD. I could buy a remote, but it's at least $20 and I can't return it if I still don't like the recorder. It's dumb for the recorder to blank the screen when there is some snow. I want to see and record what is there, regardless of the image quality. I wonder if I could disable this if I had the remote. I am hooking the box to my TV via HDMI if that makes a difference.

I tried a Panasonic (EZ something) earlier and for various reasons was not happy with it (see above). I may have to return this Toshiba without actually being able to test it thoroughly, and I was wondering if there was a third good brand out there.

I considered stand-alone VCR and DVD recorder units, but they don't seem to actually sell normal VCRs anymore, and the ones I have are getting old. Also, I assumed that a single unit would allow a better quality transfer. I hear that VHS tapes are somehow intrinsically "composite" level video quality, but I still worry about losses in the cable and whatnot.

Philips makes a six device learning remote (PMDVD6) that may be found online for less than $10. I purchased mine at a Kroger-owned store for $9.74. There are twelve pages of codes and a code search feature if the divice isn't listed in the code list. If that procedure does not enable the remote to control all the Toshiba features you might mention your general location and perhaps a local Toshiba user may offer to help teach the learning remote the unique and distinctive commands to get your Toshiba functional.

Well, if the remote wont solve the blue screen problem, then it is not worth the effort. Do you think there would really be an option to remove that? I kind of doubt it.

I would have liked to test the recording quality, but what can I do? I cannot even finalize without the remote. I bought DVD+RWs because I read somewhere that you didn't have to finalize those, but I guess that was misinformation because it wont play on my computer.

Some VHS are recorded differently than what you would see on SONY Hi-Fi Stereo 4-Head compared to a Panasonic Hi-Fi Stereo 4-Head. I've been trying to get my aging video cassette tapes off onto the PC using MP2.

1. insert VHS into the VCR
2. insert blank verbatim DVD+RW Video 1x to 4x (works the best) into DVD Recorder (here I would erase it)
3. cue it up and start to record at SP or LP
4. after some hours past
5. eject the recorded DVD media
6. insert it into the PC DVD drive
7. open the folder copy all *.VOB to the PC HDD for editing
8. using a script I wrote will convert all *.VOB to MPG
9. open womble mpeg-vcr and create a project to join all the VOB chapters
0. edit any of the MPG then click on save it's in real-time so it happens quick
A. save then open the myvideo.wme and then click to save as myvideo.mpg

Now I can watch video on any media player I have attached to the network on any TV works perfect..

SkiDragon,

Only the most recent Toshiba products (2007 and newer) support DVD+ media, R or RW.

Toshiba was probably the last manufacturer to support DVD+ media, a "giant leap into the present" to quote a VW "Automatic Stickshift" advertisement, circa. 1968.

Only recently (25 January 2008) was DVD+ media recognized by the DVD Forum as an "official" DVD format. DVD+ media entered the marketplace in 2004.

Panasonic, for instance, first claimed that their products could play DVD+R in their 2005 models. Panasonic first reported that their products could record to DVD+ media in their 2006 models. Many Panasonic owners, myself included, report that Panasonics are still not particularly friendly with DVD+ media.

Well, if the remote wont solve the blue screen problem, then it is not worth the effort. Do you think there would really be an option to remove that? I kind of doubt it.

I would have liked to test the recording quality, but what can I do? I cannot even finalize without the remote. I bought DVD+RWs because I read somewhere that you didn't have to finalize those, but I guess that was misinformation because it wont play on my computer.
I doubt you will be able to disable the blue screen problem. I believe it's something like it's AGC circuit sensing to much show and shutting off. Kind of like how some Tuner devices display a blue screen instead of show. If you had a weak signal it probably would not display but would revert to blue screen.
Thinking about this more it "could" be your TV that is making the blue screen. Maybe you could check it's setup to see if their is something related to blue screen if signal is too weak?

As far a +RW's no they do not need to be finalized(in fact they cannot be). They should just begin playing in any player that accepts +RW discs. Some players do not play + media. Mostly really only old ones.

Lastly I've tried both separates and combo VHS/DVDR's and IMO they both resulted in the same PQ recording. I just used a decent grade composite cable and audio cables. Not the old gray ones. As far as a VHS player you will either need to get a decent used one, or a decent combo player. I don't believe anyone sells just a VCR anymore.

Wal-Mart still has one..

Tipster,

I'm not aware of any differences in recording technology between different brands of VHS VCRs so I'm somewhat puzzled by your assertion "Some VHS are recorded differently . . ."

In September 2007 I completed my ten month long project dubbing to DVD selected portions of my twenty years of home-recorded videotapes. My original videotapes came from a variety of name brands and "quality" levels, and were recorded at various recording speeds. Most of my original videotapes had been stored without having been played since the original recordings were made.

During my dubbing project I did not observe any differences (other than picture quality and/or performance degradation of some videotape brands) that might be attributed to differences in the original recordings due to the use of different brands of VCRs.

I am just estimating here as to useage percentages of my original VCRs but I would say that 15% of my home-recorded videotapes were originally recorded on a two head Mitsubishi-built Emerson "HQ" VCR (purchased in December 1986); 35% of the videotapes were originally recorded on a four head Sony SLV-UC555 HI-FI VCR (purchased in 1990); 45% of the videotapes were originally recorded on a "six head" Toshiba M781 HI-FI VCR (purchased in 1996); and 5% were originally recorded on various other family VCRs including Panasonic, GE, JVC and Samsung.

I used two methods for dubbing/copying around 5,200 titles, mostly with Panasonic DMR-ES30V and DMR-ES35V combo recorders. 85% of the titles were dubbed/copied internally with the FUNCTIONS menu-initiated Time Limited Dubbing/Copying, sometimes using the Flexible Copying feature. 15% of the titles were dubbed/copied with two external Toshiba VCRs connected to Panasonic inputs. These recordings were manually-initiated or SCHEDULE-initiated timer recordings (sometimes using the Flexible Recording feature).

The external method of dubbing/copying was necessary due to tracking difficulties related to the physical condition of certain T-160 videotapes. The two Toshiba VCRs, one of which was one of the original recording VCRs mentioned above, were generally better able to track Sony T-160 videotapes (purchased beginning in 1996 or 1997) that had been recorded at the EP (8 hours per T-160) speed. After just five to ten years of dry, room temperature storage, Sony T-160 tapes became difficult for most Panasonic combo recorder VHS sections to track. I seldom found that my Panasonics had problems tracking T-120 videotapes or other brands of T-160 videotapes stored in the very same environment.

Perhaps 99% of the discs recorded on my thirteen functional Panasonics are of the DVD-R format; the other 1% are of the DVD+R format. My six most heavily used Panasonics (two DMR-ES30V, three DMR-ES35V, one DMR-ES15) average more than 3,000 recording hours per machine. One of the DMR-ES30V models has more than 4,200 recording hours. During my dubbing project I usually had four Panasonic DVD combo recorders each running up to sixteen hours per day. Occasionally I had up to seven Panasonic DVD combo recorders or DVD recorders running up to eighteen hours per day.

Other than maintaining my original VHS Index and the current DVD Index, now listing more than 16,000 home-recorded titles, my Dell Dimension Windows XP MCE 2005 computers had no part in the dubbing/copying project.

I don't believe anyone sells just a VCR anymore.
Overstock.com sells two Emersons and two Sylvania, if you don't mind refurbished ones.

http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/VCRs/12946/subcat.html

Digado- thanks for that thoughtful breakdown of the dubbing process, really great, what an impressive project!

I am on the verge of attempting a similar project, but with a less ambitious schedule and output.

Want to dub mostly home made vhs tapes from various machines and years (sports, etc) to a standalone dvd recorder. No heavy editing involved- just want to save the tapes as I am watching them turn to snow.

Have 2 vcrs for a variety of tracking [one old with analog tracking adjustment really helps], and I have a dvd recorder with internal vcr for dubbing.

Problem- many tapes, regardless of age, are triggering the sensitive copyguard in the cheap dvd recorder I got at Walmart a while back. Something in the timing, not a picture or sound flaw that is triggering it.

I want to be done with this issue and am wary of continually trying recorders that may have this same problem.

I have seen the low cost devices that supposedly help with this issue but I hear they don't work all the time.

I have read that the only way to be sure is to get a Time Base Corrector. I am willing to do this, but want to know if this is the way to go before I make the jump, since they can be pricey.

Is there another solution? Current DVD recorder with a TBC, or another DVD recorder alone, or with another device?

Is the TBC the way to go? If so, where is the best place to go and what do I look for/avoid?

Advice would be greatly appreciated- this has been a headache for me for the past year, and I've found others with this problem. Thanks.

Serya,

I have brief experience with one Funai manufactured combo recorder that found "copy protection" on a home recorded videotape from around 1990. It refused to record from that videotape. I placed that same videotape in one of my Panasonic combo recorders and it copied it to DVD with no problem.

When I called Funai they admitted that some of their products were "too sensitive" concerning copy protection and that my product was defective. They suggested I return it to Wal-Mart (as I was within the thirty day return period) for an exchange or refund. I opted for the refund, cheerfully given by Wal-Mart.

Some Funai brands are Magnavox and Sylvania, among several others.

DigaDo,

Thanks for that information- that's where I'm at. So far, even using the other decks the same copyguard is triggered. So much time passed and it was so inexpensive I kept it, and I actually like the recorder for the price, for recording television shows and such.

So I need to find a recorder that will not have this problem, or a setup with a TBC, if that indeed works well. Any suggestions?

Serya,

A number of posters have bemoaned the inability of the newest DVD recorders or combo recorders to copy (even) home-recorded videotapes that should not exhibit "copyright protection" issues. While I have two Panasonic 2007 DVD recorders (and my Philips DVDR3575H/37B just arrived a couple of days ago--but I have not yet had an opportunity to set it up) I have not attempted to dub/copy videotaped recordings with Panasonics newer than the 2006 models.

My dubbing/copying project was accomplished using the 2005 and 2006 model Panasonic combo recorders I mentioned in my earlier post. I found these full-featured combo recorders to be ideal for dubbing/copying.

I have read PDF versions of Operating Instructions for Panasonic's more recent combo recorders, and corresponded with Panasonic concerning features and lack of features on the 2007 Panasonic combo recorders. From this investigation and advice I find that the 2007 model Panasonic combo recorders are unsatisfactory for an extensive "selective" dubbing/copying project.

I use the term "selective" deliberately. By "selective" I explain that with many videotapes I did not wish to preserve the entire contents, only "selected portions" of a videotape. Most of the combo recorders currently found in the marketplace are not particularly adept at recording "selected portions" of videotapes. This is but one area where the 2006 Panasonic combo recorders (DMR-ES35V, DMR-ES45V, DMR-ES46V) and one 2005 Panasonic combo recorder (DMR-ES30V) outshine other combo recorders.

Outstanding picture quality is another area where Panasonics outshine other brands.

In addition to the situations mentioned earlier I sometimes found recording problems that appeared when using Panasonic combo recorders since VHS tracking could not be manually adjusted during "internal" dubbing/copying. Problematic videotapes were then sampled between the Toshiba VCRs and played on the one that provided the best compromise between audio and video tracking. Adjustments to reconcile video and audio tracking became a frequent problem with most Sony T-160 videotapes. With the Toshiba VCRs the "digital tracking" adjustments could be overridden and the Toshibas would maintain the manual tracking setting while playing the videotape, but only until pressing STOP. Then, when resuming PLAY on the Toshibas I would readjust manual tracking before beginning recording to the Panasonics. (I also experimented with the manual tracking override with a Samsung combo player/recorder but found that the digital tracking would reassert itself after a brief time rendering the Samsung useless as a player in the dubbing project.) I should mention that one DMR-ES35V had what initially seemed to be a problematic VHS section. I partially disassembled and rebuilt the VHS mechanism. Then that DMR-ES35V became the "best tracking" of my Panasonic combo recorders seldom having a problem with any videotapes. This indicates that there are certain adjustments that may be made to VHS mechanisms. I just happened to stumble onto the right adjustment without realizing how that was accomplished. I sometimes found it necessary to set the Toshiba VCRs to output only the linear audio tracks (instead of the HI-FI tracks) on some videotapes. While I don't have sophisticated (enough) equipment to have TBC, linear audio track recording often allowed a satisfactory balance between video and audio tracking. This indicates that older VCRs (both my Toshiba VCRs date from around 1996) have a wider range of tracking adjustment than is found on current products.

If your dubbing/copying project is for selected portions of a good sized collection of home-recorded videotapes I would suggest that you look for a 2006 model Panasonic that has been refurbished by Panasonic, with a Panasonic warranty, and is offered for sale by a Panasonic Authorized Reseller. These are often found online at reasonable prices. Avoid used or AS-IS products. I provide more detail in these posts:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13252178#post13252178

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13268621#post13268621

Thanks for all the awesome information and for taking the time to tell your story in such thoughtful detail. I am keeping the text for reference. Thanks so much for your help!

Thanks for the info. I feel hesitant to try another Panasonic since I did not like the first one I tried. One of the factors that is impossible to find information on is the format the video is recorded in on the dvd. If you read my earlier posts you will see that the Panasonic recorded in such a way that ripping the video to my PC was a very painful process. I am still looking for an alternate brand.

As an aside, what do people thing the chances are for there to be Blu-Ray recorder that will allow an entire 8 hour tape to be copied to Blu-ray at the "lowest" compression level? Or several 2-hour tapes?

All good points by Digado. Since you already have VHS players I might also suggest a Panasonic ES-15. This is a 2006 basic DVDR only model that makes very nice VHS copies from a external source. Towards the end of last year I still saw new ones for ~$100-120 locally. You still may be able to locate NIB ones for a good price. I have several and they all work very well and do not exhibit false copy protection warnings. Note they will not copy a commercial movie with CP, but should not have a problem with your home and "off TV" tapes.
If you want to go the new DVDR only route I might suggest a Panasonic EZ-28 ~$229 retail or the tunerless EZ-18 for about $50 less. Both should make fine recordings. I have the EZ-28 and really love it.
Panasonics have the advantage(IMO) of keeping their full resolution all the way to 4 hrs, while most all other DVDR's drop resolution after 2 hrs/DVD. As long as you material does not have a lot of fast motion you may well be able to push 4 hrs, or I personally prefer to use Flexable Record and fit ~3hrs/disc, it's a good compromise.

As an aside, what do people thing the chances are for there to be Blu-Ray recorder that will allow an entire 8 hour tape to be copied to Blu-ray at the "lowest" compression level? Or several 2-hour tapes?
I think (affordable) standalone BR recorders are still several years off. For one thing current blank BR discs are ~$25 a piece. Way too pricey for me. I'm not sure if BR would allow a SD like recording that would fit lots of hours/disc. I suppose it would be nice for what you want to do. I would imagine a person could get like you said +8hrs/BR disc in a mode that would be equal or better to regular DVD at 2hrs/disc quality.
I guess the ball is in Sonys hand as far as that goes.

As an aside, what do people thing the chances are for there to be Blu-Ray recorder that will allow an entire 8 hour tape to be copied to Blu-ray at the "lowest" compression level? Or several 2-hour tapes?

I agree with jjeff that it will be a few years before we see affordable Blu-ray recorders in the US. But, I think it highly likely that when we have them, they will be able to record 25gb per disc in SD equivalent to SP SD on today's DVDRs, which is 4.7gb = 2+ hours, or about 11 hours. But, I wouldn't be surprised if Blu-ray recorders don't have a line video input, so that could be your biggest obstacle to transferring tapes. Hopefully, they will accept S-Vid input, but who knows?

I agree with jjeff that it will be a few years before we see affordable Blu-ray recorders in the US. But, I think it highly likely that when we have them, they will be able to record 25gb per disc in SD equivalent to SP SD on today's DVDRs, which is 4.7gb = 2+ hours, or about 11 hours. But, I wouldn't be surprised if Blu-ray recorders don't have a line video input, so that could be your biggest obstacle to transferring tapes. Hopefully, they will accept S-Vid input, but who knows?
Since it's Sony, they'll most likely have a root-kit installed with an infra-red wireless card reader that'll download the numbers on the Credit Cards in your wallet directly to Tokyo HQ! :cool:

You'll have to load and unload the Sony's NAKED! :eek:

Shouldn't that be "if it's Sony," since surely there will be other manufacturers as well.

No, I think Sony *might* want to be involved in any other mfgr's business plan that includes the word "profit"... unless they've adopted the Mao Tse-tung business model while no one was looking! :rolleyes:

So, are you saying that Sony is dictating to all the other companies currently making Blu-ray players, just exactly what features they have, what software, firmware, etc., and requiring they install nasty gimmicks we don't want?

Don't matter. None of them are gonna let you record much really worth having to a Blu-Ray disc in full-rez HD.

Sony's already got a VAIO unit out like that. Lets you record to the hard drive from it's built-in tuners in HD, but won't let you transfer anything to it's built-in Blu-Ray burner in anything more than 480i, other than your home videos.

Wow, my obvious and NAKED joke turned into a technical discussion! :cool:

So, are you saying that Sony is dictating to all the other companies currently making Blu-ray players, just exactly what features they have, what software, firmware, etc., and requiring they install nasty gimmicks we don't want?
I don't think Sony would specify what features say Panasonic could put on it's BR recorders, but when it came down to being able to record from what sources I would guess Sony would hold the rights to that. In other words no HD recording from component inputs etc.
Like Ramm said it would probably only be good to record HD from a camcorder type output. TV programs would probably be SD only. Only a guess though but the trend has been no HD to a shareable media.

The Toshiba I am using is the D-VR600, which is a combo VHS>DVD recorder. I got it for pretty cheap, but it did not come with a controller, and none of my four universal remotes seem able to control the thing at all. The front panel buttons are so limited that I can't even record from VHS to DVD. I could buy a remote, but it's at least $20 and I can't return it if I still don't like the recorder. It's dumb for the recorder to blank the screen when there is some snow. I want to see and record what is there, regardless of the image quality. I wonder if I could disable this if I had the remote. I am hooking the box to my TV via HDMI if that makes a difference.

I tried a Panasonic (EZ something) earlier and for various reasons was not happy with it (see above). I may have to return this Toshiba without actually being able to test it thoroughly, and I was wondering if there was a third good brand out there.

.

skidragon... my experience with the 600 which i bought for xmas, sent back to toshiba 4 times.. finally i wrote em a nasty email, and they called me about 3 hours later and exchanged the 600 for a brand new 610t.

in the meantime, i borrowed my bro's panasonic, the unit coverts my vcr tapes and my high 8mm tapes perfectly, so i am keeping his and giving him the brand new 610 (got it this week)

I have read a lot of bad things about my Toshiba. I managed to record a line input without the remote and the quality looks fine, but I have no was of testing VHS>DVD at the moment, which is the main purpose of this. I am still looking at other brands.

I had two complaints with the Panasonic I tried a while back. The VOB files on the DVD were messed up in such a way that, though a standard DVD player played them fine, most programs on my computer did not play them. I am talking about trying to play just a single VOB file, not the whole DVD. I found a workaround with the Mpeg Streamclip program, but it was not ideal. Can anybody tell me what models don't do this?

Secondly, the actual quality of the recording did not seem to be the best to me. At least, it displayed static along the bottom that another DVD recorder did not. Perhaps this was due to a bad individual unit.

If the 2006 model Panasonics are the best, perhaps I should try to find one of those.

Not sure about your file problems, I never use a PC for video, but of the 2005 model Panny's I would suggest the ES-30 w/vhs or ES-15 (DVDR only). Both great machines. I wonder if maybe you used FR on your Panny that didn't work? Possibly if you used a set speed, like SP it might read on your PC? Just a WAG. I think quite a few people edit DVD's made on their Panny's on a computer, maybe they might know what could be wrong.

I was recording on the highest quality, 1 hour mode.

I returned the Toshiba I had. Here are some other brands I saw. If anybody can comment on these at all, I would appreciate it:
Samsung
LG
Zenith
Sony

Thanks.