CES 2008 New DVDRs Announced
Manufact . . Total . . w/DigTuner
Samsung . . . 3 . . . . . . .0
Toshiba . . . . 4 . . . . . . .3
Panasonic . . .4 . . . . . . .2 .
Total . . . . . 11 . . . . . . .5

Less than 1/2 of new DVDRs announced have digital tuners. Combined with NO HDDs, consumers are being squeezed into fewer and less-than-desirable choices for any standalone options for recording in the new digital TV era.

Oh, wait, the cable and satellite companies have some great boxes for that... cool boxes with lots of bells and whistles you can't just buy outright... and really cheap... just a lot of fees and fee-fees on fees!

Oh, wait again, the cell-phone industry business model!? :D :D :D

Not to mention the cable/sat. model.:D
The tr-50(if and when it comes out) will suit my needs just fine. Until then it looks like the Philips 3575 is our only good choice for fee less, digital, standalone HDD recording(oh, and I guess some people like the Magnavox HDD DVDR;)). Ya and I guess I'll miss the DVD burner, which is lacking on the tr-50:( But swappable HDD's are a +)

Definitely slim pickings. Although I have heard it attributed to the harder usability/less reliability of DVD-Rs in general and the new FCC law that all devices that have a tuner must have a digital tuner. Of these announced DVDRs, how many are truly new?

"Truly new" is a good question... it'll be interesting to see once they're released... might be repackaged oldies?

That's what I am thinking. Definitely appears to be the case with Panasonic. Probably so with Samsung too.

CES 2008 New DVDRs Announced
Manufact . . Total . . w/DigTuner
Samsung . . . 3 . . . . . . .0
Toshiba . . . . 4 . . . . . . .3
Panasonic . . .4 . . . . . . .2 .
Total . . . . . 11 . . . . . . .5

Less than 1/2 of new DVDRs announced have digital tuners. I believe that if you were to read the Toshiba announcement again, you would conclude that only 2 of those units have a digital tuner. The Toshiba line looks to be a clone of the Panasonic line. That would make only 4 new units with digital tuners. Which also means people can generally kiss goodby to the hope that new models would provide HD pass-through.

The only conspiracy I see is that they appear to be tailoring their offerings to the realities of the market.

I agree that this seems like the consumer offerings are simply more geared to a less demanding market (at least when it comes to the subject of accumulating massive video archives of broadcast video)

If you are the type of person who really takes pleasure in collecting and archiving broadcast video (IOW - you still have every episode of friends on VHS somewhere in your house recorded from the original prime-time broadcasts) then you might want to look into adding media center to your PC (assuming you have at least one PC you run windows on). Along with the addition of a cable card or an outboard cable tuner, you can build a DVR system with a ton of tuners where you get the direct digital feed on your hard disk. There is a big community of people who have developed free tools which you can use to transcribe or transcode this video into whatever transport/codec format suits you and either serve it up to your household from a gigantic disk array in the closet or burn it to DVD if you prefer.

BTW - I have a friend who does this... he has a setup with 4 tuners and a huge multi TB disk array to store all of his junk. He can then either watch it from any of the PCs in his house, or on his main theater display using his XB360 as a media center extender.

CES 2008 New DVDRs Announced
Manufact . . Total . . w/DigTuner
Samsung . . . 3 . . . . . . .0
Toshiba . . . . 4 . . . . . . .3
Panasonic . . .4 . . . . . . .2 .
Total . . . . . 11 . . . . . . .5

Less than 1/2 of new DVDRs announced have digital tuners. Combined with NO HDDs, consumers are being squeezed into fewer and less-than-desirable choices for any standalone options for recording in the new digital TV era.

Oh, wait, the cable and satellite companies have some great boxes for that... cool boxes with lots of bells and whistles you can't just buy outright... and really cheap... just a lot of fees and fee-fees on fees!

Oh, wait again, the cell-phone industry business model!? :D :D :D

I realize this doesn't fit your criteria.. But at least for PVRs, there are several you can get besides the cable company's.. EchoStar announced a new standalone PVR (*I think* with no service fees), and of course Tivos have digital tuners in them.

Along with the addition of a cable card or an outboard cable tuner, you can build a DVR system with a ton of tuners where you get the direct digital feed on your hard disk.

Which 'media center' systems can use cablecards nowadays?

Seriously, except for several TVs and Tivos (geez, I know I've posted 3 times in the past few minutes and mentioned Tivo in all of them), I didn't think many other things worked with cablecards.

Seriously, except for several TVs and Tivos (geez, I know I've posted 3 times in the past few minutes and mentioned Tivo in all of them), I didn't think many other things worked with cablecards.I've noticed that myself -- cable card has faded from the market faster than anyone would have expected. It seems like all the models of TV over the past year have nothing to do with cable card. They are more concerned with how many HDMI inputs they can design in. I didn't see a single flat panel display in CC that had a cable card slot.

In my latest Crutchfield catalog there are a couple of Mitsubishi flat-panel LCD's listed that have it, but that's it.

So what do you think? Is cable-card history?

I have heard that the cableco's are still hashing out the cablecard 2.0. I don't remember offhand the specifics but apparently they did not get everything they wanted in the original cablecard spec. If memory serves me it had something to do with bidirectionality for pay-per-view, etc. Will it be compatible with cablecard 1.0? I haven't heard.

That is the only thing that bothers me with the digital switchover (as already discussed in other threads). Yes, I know the switch is technically for broadcast TV, but the recent FCC ruling does give cableco's the option to switch everyone over to digital cable. Yet, there are very few QAM tuner options available, much less cablecard capable devices. I don't think it is an all out conspiracy more than the market is more interested in the ease of DVR's. But is sure favors tha cableco's over me.

BTW - Cablecard capable PCs have to be licensed by CableLabs and are only OEM'd right now. HP is one of the mainstream PC makers with cablecard PCs.

So what do you think? Is cable-card history?

I'm pretty sure they're not history as cable companies are required to separate the secuirty (i.e. they must use cablecards in all new equipment issued after 1-July-2007). If the equipment was already issued once they are allowed to reuse it and I think the FCC granted a few exemptions to some of the smaller companies.

Dell is also a an OEM for cablecard computers using the ATI Digital TV Tuner although it is not 2.0 ready.

Currently Cox Communications is now using two-way cablecards even though there is not consumer devices available, TiVo can't get all of the channels now with a cablecard. There is supposed to be a patch device due out in the 2nd quarter of this year.

Personnally I'm optimistic that once the two way directional cards are more in use and the tech stuff is more stable there will be more options. I'm sure TiVo keep its foothold at least until a no pay guide dvr becomes available.

Currently Cox Communications is now using two-way cablecards even though there is not consumer devices available, TiVo can't get all of the channels now with a cablecard. There is supposed to be a patch device due out in the 2nd quarter of this year.


Thanks for the update! Now I feel a little better. I investigated Cox last October. I wanted a Tivo and was considering the Tivo HD; thinking it would be a little more "future-proof". Cox was using single-stream and multi-stream cablecards but I did not know, at least then, that they were using bi-directional cablecards.

I ended up buying a Series 2 analog Tivo b/c they had not enabled TivoToGo. I bought mine 10/31/2007. They enabled TivoToGo on the Tivo HD on 11/1/2007. :mad:

But maybe, just maybe, things aren't finalized enough with the cablecard technology. Good ole analog.:D

I haven't followed this topic in the trades too closely lately, but historically the cablecos have given the merest lip service to the cablecard concept. They have fought it in every way they can get away with. Government regulators have tried to force the issue but there are always loopholes the cablecos use to avoid complying.

I seem to remember part of the ATSC transition process has the Feds strongarming the cablecos to get real and finally cooperate with cablecard. But they may have found another way to stall: since there is a dearth of new cablecard-equipped hardware announcements, it appears cooperation is still a ways off.

Understand, cable is having more success than they ever dreamed possible with their proprietary DVRs. No way in HELL will they give that up to outside competition if they can possibly avoid it. And since same mfrs who would make independent cablecard hardware are the same ones selling those proprietary boxes to the cablecos, there's no real incentive for them to push cablecard from the CE point of view. They have guaranteed income from the cableco contracts: why throw that away in exchange for the unreliable retail consumer market?

I've noticed that myself -- cable card has faded from the market faster than anyone would have expected.

No, I didn't mean that it faded from the market -- I thought that many TVs support it.

But my real point was *besides* TVs and Tivos, what does support cable card?
I suspect that other device makers don't want to either pay whatever is necessary or follow the restrictions of the cable card organization (which obviously limits the transportability of recorded shows, etc).

I personally am pro-cable card (though I don't have any myself yet, for cost reasons), and am glad it was made a requirement, and that cable companies were required to use them too.

Currently Cox Communications is now using two-way cablecards even though there is not consumer devices available, TiVo can't get all of the channels now with a cablecard. There is supposed to be a patch device due out in the 2nd quarter of this year.

I am NOT an expert on cable cards. But are you *sure* you're not referring to "M-cards" and not "two-way cablecards"? People mistake them, but they're not the same thing. I believe "two way" cablecards are still in the design phase.

Another issue for PVRs is SDV (switched digital video), sort of an end-run around cablecards (not necessarily intentionally). There will be a 'USB dongle' workaround for Tivos, at least.

But my real point was *besides* TVs and Tivos, what does support cable card?
Well, I don't know if this counts because it is "TiVo-like", but the Sony DHG-HDD500/250 DVR's do. But they've long since been out of production.

I am NOT an expert on cable cards. But are you *sure* you're not referring to "M-cards" and not "two-way cablecards"? People mistake them, but they're not the same thing. I believe "two way" cablecards are still in the design phase.

Another issue for PVRs is SDV (switched digital video), sort of an end-run around cablecards (not necessarily intentionally). There will be a 'USB dongle' workaround for Tivos, at least.

At least in my area yes I'm sure. The new dvrs Cox is issuing have cablecards in them as required now by the FCC and they allow for on-demand functions which require two-way communicaiton. That's their explanation why my tv, which uses a cablecard, cannot receive the content that relies on a switched digital signal.

I agree with CitiBear that there is little incentive at the momment for a third part to join the fray, but I think eventually (sometime late this year) they are going to look at Tivo's bottom line and want a piece. As more companies take a stab at it one is eventually going to just provide the box using the free TV guide as programming service. I certainly could be wrong but I hope not. LG actually had this out for a while in the form of a tv with a hd-dvr thta used a cablecard and I just optimistic that with the spec not finished and erratic compliance that it has been difficult to put out a product that Joe consumer could just plug in and be working. Afterall to install a cablecard it takes a service tech to come and charge $30+ for, with a cablebox its plug and play for the most part. Fingers crossed!


Also yes Cox in my area is also support M-cards for Tivos and I'm presumming that's what their using in their cableboxes as well.

Which 'media center' systems can use cablecards nowadays?

I'm talking about a PC running either Windows Media Center edition (a variant of windows XP) or Windows Vista Ultimate (comes with Media Center built in). I don't know if you can purchase Media Center as a stand alone, but I would not be supprised.

check out
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/mediacenter/default.mspx
for details.

You don't need to have a PC built by HP or Dell or anyone special to make this work. You may need a particular video card if you want to drive your display with s-video or component, but if you have an HD display, your are probably using HDMI and it should not matter what video card you have. The link above has info on hardware compatibility. If you want to record all your TV, you will need a PC in your house which is pretty much on 24/7 (just like your Tivo or w/e is). Some people build lower power HTPCs specifically for this and rack them up with all their gear, others build higher power machines which sit in a back room and then use something like an xbox as a media center extender. If you just want to play around with it, I would just use my normal PC and consider extra HW only if I thought I was really going to use it and needed it.

Cablecard availability varies from place to place. In the bay area, however, you can get them from comcast without much trouble.

I have also heard that there is going to be a fairly cheap (~$200) BD drive for PCs coming out soon. Presumably, you could use a media center HTPC as your BD player once this happens (you can already use it as a DVD or HD-DVD player; or even a BD player, if you drop $1000 for Sony's insanely priced drive)

Don't get me wrong though... This type of thing is a fiddler's hobby. If you want to buy something, plug it in and never deal with it afterwards, this is probably not the right solution for you. If you enjoy customizing your home theater and need more power/control than most consumer level components offer, then this is a relatively inexpensive way of getting there.

Hey Johngro

I agree with you, but do you know of any PC TV tuner cards available that make use of a cablecard? AFAIK they are still only prebuilt OEM's units from the PC makers. Even if you could score one of the ones out of the premade PCs it won't work b/c they require special code in the MB Bios to enable it. This may change in the future, as did Windows Media Center, but CableLabs has maintained a pretty tight grip on their licensing and is surely meant as a way for the PC makers to make a few bucks; as was Windows Media Center at first.

OTW I agree with you completely.