I went to a local store to look at subs for my home stereo. The salesperson told me that smaller subs 8-10 inches are more musical than larger subs 12-15 inches. Reason I am asking is because the AV123 MFW-15 is a 15" woofer but Craigsub is rating very high for music and music for me is more important than a hugh boom. (even though that would be OK if possible to have both) Please advise.

That salesperson is ignorant and obviously wrong.

Its a myth

It isn't so much that they are more musical than it is that they are better suited for music as playing music is less demanding...So while he had a point...he was not entirely correct...

Willd said it best:

.... That salesperson is ignorant and obviously wrong.


Tim

It's not the size, but how you use it. :p

Execution of a design is everything. Most audiophile folklore (as I like to referr to such comments) originate from various poor, but common, design choices found in the marketplace. At one time vented subwoofers couldn't sound good, some say slot ports can't sound good, of course those bandpass designs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=981751) can't possibly make good sound, and we've all been told horns can't be hi-fi. :rolleyes:

It is interesting to note that our acceptance of each design has come exactly in the order of increasing design complexity... ;)

That isn't to say that there aren't benefit to smaller drivers or sealed subwoofers. In the end the it is still the results that matter, not the means.

It's not the size, but how you use it.
Exactly.

This is actually a very complex topic, but simply making a broad generalization that smaller drivers are better than larger drivers "for music" is, as someone pointed out, ignorant.

There are just WAY too many OTHER variables which contribute to a subwoofer's overall performance besides driver size, to make such a broad generalization.

Another very broad generalization one could make as an argument for this salesperson to ponder is that a larger driver is actually able to reproduce everything with much less effort and therefore much less distortion than a smaller driver.

It isn't so much that they are more musical than it is that they are better suited for music as playing music is less demanding...So while he had a good point...he was not entirely correct...He didn't have a good point; he was wrong. Musical demands depend on the music. Now, if he said the smaller subs are sufficient for less demanding performance.................

That salesperson is ignorant and obviously wrong.

Wonder how much money he makes working at that place??? Or what education he needs???

Guys he is not ignorant. Ignorant is the management of the company that traines poorly their employees, and don't bring people in to offer them continuous product education. The salesperson is just misinformed.

Wonder how much money he makes working at that place??? Or what education he needs???

Guys he is not ignorant. Ignorant is the management of the company that traines poorly their employees, and don't bring people in to offer them continuous product education. The salesperson is just misinformed.Tough distinction. . Do you think he was trained to say this by the management? And, btw, ignorance should not be regarded as pejorative.

Tough distinction. . Do you think he was trained to say this by the management? And, btw, ignorance should not be regarded as pejorative.

He probably hasn't even been trained. If you haven't, try working Sundays and late at night, and deal with people like you and me all day. I've never worked Sundays, nor Saturdays, but have many employees that have. Ignorance is not pejorative, what is pejorative is the way some people comment on it.

He probably hasn't even been trained. If you haven't, try working Sundays and late at night, and deal with people like you and me all day. I've never worked Sundays, nor Saturdays, but have many employees that have. Ignorance is not pejorative, what is pejorative is the way some people comment on it.Right.

Guys he is not ignorant.

The salesperson is just misinformed.
Tough distinction.

And, btw, ignorance should not be regarded as pejorative.
Ignorance is not pejorative, what is pejorative is the way some people comment on it.
Right.
The salesperson was still ignorant in a non-pejorative sense. :D

Ignorance is a cheese blintz.

The salesperson was still ignorant in a non-pejorative sense. :D

Ignorance is a cheese blintz.And that's....................... OK.;)

Its a myth

It certainly is, or "common misconception" more like. A lot of people think that, but it is certainly not true. The drivers, amp, whether it's sealed or ported, what frequency it's tuned to, the type of box design - there are SO many factors that determine if a sub is "musical".

And to the OP, what store did you go to? Most sales people have no clue as to what they are talking about unless it is a specialty shop.

And that's....................... OK.;)

Stuart Smalley? ;):p "Just say to yourself "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and god darn it, people like me.""

I would suggest that if you're aware of this forum, then placing stock in the advice of a salesman is ignorant

Wonder how much money he makes working at that place??? Or what education he needs???

Guys he is not ignorant. Ignorant is the management of the company that traines poorly their employees, and don't bring people in to offer them continuous product education. The salesperson is just misinformed.

He probably hasn't even been trained. If you haven't, try working Sundays and late at night, and deal with people like you and me all day. I've never worked Sundays, nor Saturdays, but have many employees that have. Ignorance is not pejorative, what is pejorative is the way some people comment on it.

I empathize, having worked retail at night and on the weekends. I will no doubt admit that I was ignorant w.r.t certain products my employer sold, but I also didn't lie to a customers face about the performance of a given product or make incorrect generalizations.

Did you think I was using the term in a pejorative manner? Because I wasn't. The term just happened to fit the situation. He shouldn't have to be trained to not say what he said. He is ignorant because he acted like he knew what he was talking about when in reality, he didn't.

Now if he was trained (which you seem to think he was not) and during training he was told that smaller subs are more musical than larger subs, then I would agree he was misinformed.

I would suggest that if you're aware of this forum, then placing stock in the advice of a salesman is ignorant

LOL...:)

That's the bad thing I went there because it was a specialty shop and I knew I was ignorant (thanks for pointing it out to everyone on the board dlfromcanada). The shop sells low end of Pioneer Elite and Marantz, high end Classe and McIntosh. The guy I was dealing with was the manager.

Now I am more confused. Last night I called AV123 to ask the same question concerning the AV123 MFW-15 and the person that answered the phone told me the MFW-15 was mainly for Home Theater. I asked him if they had another sub that was ok at home theater but really good at music and he said not at this time but possibly in the future.

Bigger drivers have more mass and lead to slower performance. ;)

--Regards,

Bigger drivers have more mass and lead to slower performance. ;)

--Regards,

False. Bigger drivers do not need to move as fast as smaller drivers to move the same amount of air.

Fast bass, slow bass?

... If it's fast, then it's treble. :p


Tim

I would suggest that if you're aware of this forum, then placing stock in the advice of a salesman is ignorant
That seems like a pejorative statement. :-)

False. Bigger drivers do not need to move as fast as smaller drivers to move the same amount of air.

Um, perhaps you missed the smiley icon at the end of my statement ? Do a search and you'll see I do know a little on the subject. :rolleyes:

--Regards,

So sorry. I misunderestimated you. ;)

How about,... bigger drivers do not need to move as far as smaller drivers to move the same amount of air.

All else being equally accounted for, that shorter excursion length means less opportunity for distortion of the signal during reproduction.

Bear in mind too that a larger driver cone will have more mass than a smaller one of the same type and design. This requires an appropriately scaled driver motor and amp in order for it to perform accurately. That increased mass is by no means a problem as long as the motor and amp are strong anough and agile enough to handle it correctly. If they are, then the result is that the larger driver can more accurately reproduce signals within it's operating range, and that it's operating range will go cleanly lower than a similar driver with a smaller cone.


Tm

How about,... bigger drivers do not need to move as far as smaller drivers to move the same amount of air.
Tm

...and they literally do not have to move as fast. The smaller driver has to move farther in and out in than the larger driver in exactly the same amount of time. Therefore to reproduce the same signal at the same level, it has to move faster than the larger driver.

Good word picture mojo, that a smaller driver has to actually move faster to cover the needed longer excursion distance in the same amount of time in order to reproduce the same signal. Thanks.

Tim

If I love cheese blintzes, does that make me pejorative?

My little sub just doesn't do bass well. Hoping my new BIG one does better.

I would suggest that if you're aware of this forum, then placing stock in the advice of a salesman is ignorant

Not all salespeople are ignorant.

--Regards,

Not all salespeople are ignorant.

--Regards,

That's true, but unfortunately many potential buyers are. If only more of them were to avail themselves of infromation in places like this forum and others like it, they wouldn't go into the marketplace unarmed.

Now I am more confused. Last night I called AV123 to ask the same question concerning the AV123 MFW-15 and the person that answered the phone told me the MFW-15 was mainly for Home Theater. I asked him if they had another sub that was ok at home theater but really good at music and he said not at this time but possibly in the future.
Wow. I just went to their site and they're only selling the X-sub and the MFW15, now.


1.) KARKEN, what is your budget?

2.) Do you have any size constraints?

3.) Appearance?

4.) About what ratio of music to movies do you listen to (watch)?

5.) How much more important is the music performance to you than the movie performance?

6.) Are most of your movies "subwoofer"-type movies or more cerebral? (Sorry, I know that is a very broad and subjective assessment of movies, and is most likely going to piss someone off.)

6.) What speakers will this subwoofer be used with?

7.) ~How big is your room? Length, width, and height.

*hugs his Epik Valor*

Has a 15" driver and is very clean and musical ...

*hugs his Epik Valor*
stop that! :eek:

Sivadselim (and any other's that would like to chime in) thanks.

1. Budget is $400-800 (maybe a touch more if something really good is right there).
2. No real size constraints that I know of. (I have looked at the HSU VTF-3 so something similar size would be fine.)
3. Appearance standard black box is fine.
4. Music to movies 65% to 35%
5. Music more important as a whole. (don't really like uncontrolled rattly bass that I have heard in some of the cheaper store brands so maybe I am confusing the music issue with cheap)
6. Movie wise would be mixture of kids stuff and action movies.
7. B&W 684 for fronts and B&W 685 for rears'
8. Not at home to measure room exactly but would be about 24' X 14' X 8'(part of the room is a play area and sound is not important.

7. B&W 684 for fronts and B&W 685 for rears'

Have you considered a B&W sub? Yes, they're expensive relative to what else can be bought, particularly ID brands, but they are a great music sub. You could check audiogon for a used one, maybe.

(Ducks quickly as I'm sure someone is going to chime in that there is no such thing as a "music sub" (or "movie sub")

Well I sell subs designed to play high resolution, low notes in music so I don't think you need to "duck"...;)

I went to a local store to look at subs for my home stereo. The salesperson told me that smaller subs 8-10 inches are more musical than larger subs 12-15 inches. Reason I am asking is because the AV123 MFW-15 is a 15" woofer but Craigsub is rating very high for music and music for me is more important than a hugh boom. (even though that would be OK if possible to have both) Please advise.

My guess at interpreting this assuming ears are leading someone to this conclusion... hear me out and it may make sense:

DIY 12-15" drivers that have good sub performance require VERY large enclosures, like 4-10 cubic feet. However manufacturers that market to a typical A/V retailers don't really want to make subs this large for several reasons:
1) the majority of their market is very sensitive to sub size (aesthetics / WAF)
2) The box and bracing needed for boxes that large add to the cost once shipping and inventory considerations are made.
3) The potential cost of showroom floor space to showcase such a sub combined with #2 make potential extra cost almost exponential in nature as size increases.

The result? They stuff big sub drivers into enclosures that are too small to yield ideal results. They appeal to the 'bigger drivers are better' crowd and still keep some WAF by using a box too small.

This is pure speculation, but I would be surprised if I'm that far off. The peaky response will appeal to the uninitiated in a short audition. Sure it will be fatiguing, but you don't audition long enough to fatigue.

The 8-10" drivers are probably able to be designed into more appropriate enclosure sizes relative to driver size so that their overall response is more flat.

Appropriate designs for 12-15" subs should be as good or better than appropriately designed 8-10" subs. My guess is that most 12-15" commercial subs are NOT appropriately designed.

I expect most of the subs in the Craigsub ratings are from manufacturers that DO appropriately design their subs. I'd also guess that these are not the manufacturers that your salesperson is most familiar with and he is probably basing these assumptions off "brand names" that design for a larger (and less demanding) market.

Well I sell subs designed to play high resolution, low notes in music so I don't think you need to "duck"...;)
What subs?

Sivadselim (and any other's that would like to chime in) thanks.

1. Budget is $400-800 (maybe a touch more if something really good is right there).
2. No real size constraints that I know of. (I have looked at the HSU VTF-3 so something similar size would be fine.)
3. Appearance standard black box is fine.
4. Music to movies 65% to 35%
5. Music more important as a whole. (don't really like uncontrolled rattly bass that I have heard in some of the cheaper store brands so maybe I am confusing the music issue with cheap)
6. Movie wise would be mixture of kids stuff and action movies.
7. B&W 684 for fronts and B&W 685 for rears'
8. Not at home to measure room exactly but would be about 24' X 14' X 8'(part of the room is a play area and sound is not important.

Karken, have you looked at the "Craigsub rankings thread? Although not gospel, many here believe that this is the Consumers Reports of Subwoofers. He and his team have spent huge amounts of time and energy evaluating all these different subs, below is his assesment of the MFW-15. I suggest you will be blown away for both music and movies, it tied 6th place against the audio fathom13 which sells for $3500!!!!

6b. AV-123 MFW-15.

Listening results: The MFW-15 amazed the panel by largely matching the PB13 Ultra in all musical areas with the exception of pipe organ. Bass is deep, tight and powerful, with no overhang at all. The cabinet work done on this subwoofer is absolultely stellar, especially in its price range. By stellar, we mean just how inert it is. The cabinet barely vibrates during the most powerful passages, and this helps the MFW-15 to get its excellent musical rating. It is, as an earlier graph shows, very linear in its response curve, all the way to 100 Hz. It is in the area of slam an linearity that allows this subwoofer to match more high priced units. The Steely Dan disc on this subwoofer is a bass head's dream, with a lot of the panel requesting to hear it again after the test. Stanley Clarke was also as crystal clear on the MFW-15 as with any subwoofer we have had.

Measured results... 20 Hz - 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112 dB