I've posted this a couple of times, and the post has gotten buried in the threads, so I decided to make it a thread. Sorry if you have already read it before:

Regarding combo discs, and twin disc formats, The problem with pressing both the HD and SD version on the single disc for studios is one thing. The date of conclusion. I can see where the studios want to avoid the extra cost of indefinite production of doing this. Studios want a clear winner. So here's the key to the whole mix. (If I understand correctly Toshiba owns the rights to the DVD license) TOSHIBA / supportive studios need to put an end date to SD DVD production. Similar to what is being done to analog TVs right now. And one more thing, the HDA needs to require a start date for ALL SD DVDs to start including a HD layer also wether in Twin Disc or Combo flipper.

For example, First TOSHIBA and the DVD forum could announce that on DEC 31 2009 (date for example) they will discontinue SD DVD production, and no longer license studios to continue using the format. Remember HD DVD was supposed to be the successor to SD DVD.(Keeping in mind the BDA and Sony do not have the right to the DVD title and cannot put it on the Blu disc) And announce that beginning Jan 1 2010 all DVDS will be HD DVD's only. This will give the public a warning of the upcomiing change. This info can be put on the leader of all DVD releases. With the price of HD DVD players coming down the average consumer will be able to pick up a player by that date, no problem. New HD players will be able to play ALL of your SD titles, but Old players will NOT be able to play the new format. Plus other player manufactures can fully get behind the date, further increasing the player selection, and generating lower player prices and selection.

Second. Tosh / SDA needs to put a prior date on when all current studios MUST include a HD layer on all newly pressed discs, (say 10/15/2008)or the license to produce SD Discs will be cancelled (or not renewed). Major studios could be given a earlier date, and Indies could be given a later date in order to gear up. This will also help promote player sales, because all new discs will include the HD layer. This will also resolve the "confusion" that the consumer seems to be having. Specific times and dates.

I think the consumer will see this as normal, and will accept that this is the next generation of DVD technology. Also it would trump Blu at the SD level. Studios will be forced to make a decision. Either Soley support BLU and cancel all new SD production(not gonna happen), or comply and bring the consumer to the next generation of video entertainment. Blu movie will then be pushed to a niche format, just like PSP movies. Game, set, match.

No studio would even remotely consider even slightly risking SD production at this point! IMO, At this point in time, HD needs to entirely forget about the BDA, (it's really not going anywhere as long as HD has the support of UNI, PARA and DW.) and they need to put a full frontal assault on SD DVD. It's also natural for advertising. If Tosh, the DVD forum and those 3 studios got behind a marketing theme like that, you would see the other studios following suit very shortly. The funny part is, in the mean time, the combo discs will still play on PS3s :D Blu discs still don't play on ANY SD player, or HD player!! Niche I say!:p

Thoughts??? Or am I missing something?

I love the idea... would be brilliant

I think the DVD Forum if possible should not allow blu-ray to play back dvd's.

Don't think it's possible, but if it would have been I am sure they would have already done it.

I really think over all if Toshiba was going to do something to this level we would already know about it.

I do agree it's a great idea, but I would have to take it that Toshiba does not own all the rights to DVD since thats what the DVD forum is for right? So in that case I don't think this would be possible?

Not going to happen and personally I think it is a bad idea. Most people don't care about PQ and AQ like you and me.

Forcing people to buy new players? Come on man! :eek:

Talk about trumping BD's sleeziness with one swoop.

I'm sick of these posts. Let them run their companies, go on with your lives. :rolleyes:

Not going to happen and personally I think it is a bad idea. Most people don't care about PQ and AQ like you and me.

HMMM lets see, most people still have B&W TVs and VCRs then? I think people DO care about PQ, but not if it costs a fortune, and is confusing. I think people in general do want better quality, but they need to justify the reason and the costs.

Reason: SD DVD is being phased out, like alot of normal technology does over time. Costs: $399 is not reasonable for the average consumer.

Forcing people to buy new players? Come on man! :eek:



I don't think on average people felt forced to purchase a DVD player as VCR tapes were phased out. So I'm not sure if it would come across as being forced, as much as moving forward.

Reason: SD DVD is being phased out

Sorry, but its not.

VHS was not discontinued once DVD hit the market. Also, VHS is still used and can be purchased today.

Not enough people care about HiDef, yet.

Most people I know have no clue about BluRay or HD DVD. SD ain't going anywhere. Not for a long, long time.

Forcing people to buy new players? Come on man! :eek:

Talk about trumping BD's sleeziness with one swoop.

I'm sick of these posts. Let them run their companies, go on with your lives. :rolleyes:

Grumpy much? If you're sick of these posts don't read them, and certainly don't waste our time useless posts.

Let us share ideas to improve something we care about. Go on with your life.:rolleyes:

Sorry, but its not.

VHS was not discontinued once DVD hit the market. Also, VHS is still used and can be purchased today.

Not enough people care about HiDef, yet.

I'm not trying to argue, the dates I used were for example (as I said). And I wasn't saying SD was going out. I was refering to IF the idea was to work. Yes SD is still very alive.:D

Its a great idea, because you are making all SD DVD into Twin or Combo disc. This will satisfy all SD DVD owners and will automatically make HD DVD the defacto standard. However, the DVD forum needs to approve of this and Toshiba's vote alone is not enough, they need to actively persuade the other members to go with this idea. The questions is if this move will cause any delicate problems in terms of relationship. Will they see this as a hostile action of a tyrant company or the smart strategic move to win? If they can do this, it would be great. If not, we still have TL51 Twin and Combos at low prices to fall back on.

and what about all the people with 480p digital and analog tvs? you are gonna force them to get something that really wont provide them anymore than they already have with SD?

Does Toshiba even have the authority to cut production of DVD's?

Does Toshiba even have the authority to cut production of DVD's?

Not nearly the amount needed to do something like this.

The DVD forum is run by a ton of companies... the vast majority of the companies with power are currently on the BR side. There's no way for something like this to happen. Toshiba just happens to get a large share of the royalty money, but it doesn't mean they have the power to do anything like this -- they were lucky to get the forum to support HD DVD by name (most of the key members of the DVD forum are behind BR).

It's another pie in the sky idea for HD DVD to win.

Here is a list of all companies in leadership positions within the DVD Forum, its quite easy to see why the TC's idea will never ever fly.

Steering Committee Companies
(Tenure: Feb. 2006 to Feb. 2008)

1.
Hitachi, Ltd.

2.
IBM Corporation

3.
Industrial Technology Research Institute

4.
Intel Corporation

5.
LG Electronics Inc.

6.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd.

7.
Microsoft Corporation

8.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation

9.
NEC Corporation

10.
PIONEER CORPORATION

11.
Royal Philips Electronics

12.
SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.

13.
SANYO Electric Co., Ltd.

14.
SHARP CORPORATION

15.
Sony Corporation

16.
THOMSON

17.
Toshiba Corporation

18.
Victor Company of Japan, Limited

19.


Walt Disney Pictures and Television

20.
Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.

and what about all the people with 480p digital and analog tvs? you are gonna force them to get something that really wont provide them anymore than they already have with SD?

Did you even read the OP?

They would be able to play these discs in their regular DVD players. If by "force" you mean, give them extra product/value with their old school tech purchase, then I guess that is true.

Actually, it was the consumer that chose DVD over VHS tape...just as the consumer chose VHS over BETA.

You can't FORCE the public to choose one format, no matter how you spin it.

People will choose DVD's successor...don't worry about it.


I don't think on average people felt forced to purchase a DVD player as VCR tapes were phased out. So I'm not sure if it would come across as being forced, as much as moving forward.

It took 7 years for SD-DVDs to out sell VHS and you didn't need a new TV to watch them. With about 25% of household with HDTV and only 1.5 years into HDM, there's still a long long way to go before either format is "successful". Having 2 formats isn't helping things but even if there was only one, we wouldn't be any farther along or maybe not as far because players wouldn't be as cheap and neither would content. I'm amazed at the energy expended agonizing over all this when what you should be doing it watching movies and enjoything them because there really isn't much else anybody here can do. There's still a long way to go - pace yourself. :) And there's no guarantee that either format will enjoy the success of SD-DVD. Movie studios do not want "you" to get content in your hands if at all possible.

larry

Actually, it was the consumer that chose DVD over VHS tape...just as the consumer chose VHS over BETA.

You can't FORCE the public to choose one format, no matter how you spin it.

People will choose DVD's successor...don't worry about it.
Well, IIRC (at least at some point):
-all studios released movies in Beta and VHS, consumer chose VHS for the recording time.
-all studios released movies in VHS and DVD, consumer finally jumped to DVD when price was right (long time) because it was only a "play" medium with no record
-all studios released in Blu-ray or HD DVD, few released movies in both and after June 1, 2008 we will only have exclusive studios, so there is no way the consumer can choose between the 2, if you want all movies you need both players, something that most users don't want, so this time is more like a studio war than format war, Blu-ray "won" because there are more movies that will be released in that format over HD DVD, simply that, the mass consumer didn't had the chance to even vote
-when all studios release in Blu-ray and DVD then the real format war will begin, do we end with Blu-ray in 5-10 years or people will select DVD? In that time studios will be able to "force" the change?

Here is a list of all companies in leadership positions within the DVD Forum, its quite easy to see why the TC's idea will never ever fly.

Steering Committee Companies
(Tenure: Feb. 2006 to Feb. 2008)

Thanks for everyones responses, Here is something I found,

"The DVD Patent License will run until December 31, 2007, and renew automatically for 5-year terms thereafter unless the licensee provides 60 days' notice of its intent not to renew. Notwithstanding that, the license will terminate on the expiration of the last of the licensed patents to expire. Toshiba may terminate the license in the event of the licensee's bankruptcy, and either party may terminate the license on 30 days' notice for a breach that is not remedied within 30 days after notice of the breach. "

Obviously I don't pretend to know everything about the agreement. But to me it seems that date may explain why WR made it's announcement on Jan 4 :D

But it does seem that the patent license is issued ultimately at the pleasure of Tosh, regardless of the DVD forum. Tosh currently is sueing some companies to protect it's patent.

My main point is that Tosh, may be able to use the connection with BDA support as a reason to not renew licenses, or to terminate them altogether. Only to reach a solution that allows companies to support BD by pressing HD on SD discs. And by pressing that way, the consumer (all of them) gets what they want. Let BRA fight for itself to overtake SD, but require companies that pursue BD to press HD or terminate their licenses for the reason of conflict of intrest. ????

So forget what I suggested about time and date discontinuing SD production, let it happen naturally.

Also I'm not looking to get flamed here. There's allot of brilliant people on this forum. I'm just interested in the potential or non potential of the idea. Could that explain why Tosh never seems to get overly animated about major bombs? Thanks again.

Edit: I just noticed your comment "(Tenure: Feb. 2006 to Feb. 2008)" does that mean the tenure of the steering comittee is set to expire next month? Is March 1 going to be interesting?

Here is a list of all companies in leadership positions within the DVD Forum, its quite easy to see why the TC's idea will never ever fly.

Steering Committee Companies
(Tenure: Feb. 2006 to Feb. 2008)

1.
Hitachi, Ltd.

2.
IBM Corporation

3.
Industrial Technology Research Institute

4.
Intel Corporation

5.
LG Electronics Inc.

6.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd.

7.
Microsoft Corporation

8.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation

9.
NEC Corporation

10.
PIONEER CORPORATION

11.
Royal Philips Electronics

12.
SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.

13.
SANYO Electric Co., Ltd.

14.
SHARP CORPORATION

15.
Sony Corporation

16.
THOMSON

17.
Toshiba Corporation

18.
Victor Company of Japan, Limited

19.


Walt Disney Pictures and Television

20.
Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.

Pretty much. I count at least 12 companies who are members of the BDA. While they abstain to vote on HD DVD stuff it's easy to see they won't allow SD DVD to be discontinued.

Pretty much. I count at least 12 companies who are members of the BDA. While they abstain to vote on HD DVD stuff it's easy to see they won't allow SD DVD to be discontinued.

Once again, the post said the tenure was from 2/06 until 2/08. Does anyone know what that means?

Once again, the post said the tenure was from 2/06 until 2/08. Does anyone know what that means?

....it has happened once already. Kick out two that were abstaining, bring in two more that would support.

....it has happened once already. Kick out two that were abstaining, bring in two more that would support.

Just found this:

Feb 08 to Feb 10

Changes Include:
Memory-Tech Corporation (New Addition)
Paramount Pictures Corporation (New Addition)

Royal Philips Electronics (Dumped)
Victor Company of Japan, Limited (Dumped)

do we end with Blu-ray in 5-10 years or people will select DVD? In that time studios will be able to "force" the change?

I see the studios releasing full format movies only on DVD and releasing wide screen only on HD. They can also delete all extras from the DVD versions and go to single layer only for DVD. They could release DVDs only with 2 channel sound. If one wants to see an unrated, extended, director's cut the only version available will be HD. Extra audio codecs? HD only.

And 70% of the people may still choose SD if only because it'll be $15 cheaper. HD movies will come out at $30 and go down to $20. DVDs will come out at $20 and go down to $10, $5 on sale.

What I really want is only the very best movies on HD and average and so-so movies on SD. There's already some crap movies on HD which very few people will want to buy, just look at the shelves - some movies just refuse to move. I want re-mastered and digitally cleaned-up and restored versions of my most beloved movies. I don't want re-scans. If they're re-scans and they look only slightly better when up-converted, then why bother?

But I may be the exception since there are plenty of people who are paying money to listen to music through a mono cell phone and who will soon pay money to watch a movie on the same 1" square cell phone screen. So what do I know? But if the cell phone proves anything it is that people can settle for crap quite easily.

As far as sabotage goes, we all liked recording VHS at the 4 hour speed. So the companies took that speed out. I expect them to do the same to DVD.

I think the strategy is to add more for the consumers and not take away from what the consumer is already getting. A good idea is to add the 720P on Twin for them and charge an extra $3 for those disc. That way, it doesn't piss of SD DVD owner, but will encourage them to go HD DVD when they are ready. 1080p disc can stay premium in price.

I think the strategy is to add more for the consumers and not take away from what the consumer is already getting. A good idea is to add the 720P on Twin for them and charge an extra $3 for those disc. That way, it doesn't piss of SD DVD owner, but will encourage them to go HD DVD when they are ready. 1080p disc can stay premium in price.

I've seen this 720P twin idea talked about alot. The only problem I see is it will give the BDA a foothold to butcher HD in media advertising. I realize a premium 1080P disc could be sold, but once again, that just adds to the confusion factor once again. :( The really upsetting part is that HD seems to have all of the possible neccessary advantages, they just need to GET THE TL51 DONE.