Hi,

I was reading an article that says the ACCC is investigating Hitachi for labelling 1080i plasma TVs as "Full HD". Don't all PDPs display only progressive images (by deinterlacing)? I didn't think any current plasmas could display interlaced video...

I have a Pioneer PDP-506HD, which is 1280x768, how would the scaler/deinterlacer be dealing with 1080i input, because I thought that good 1080i deinterlacing required a very high quality video processor. I assume it must scale down and then deinterlace?

Thanks, Ben

Since HD is defined as either 1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080 pixels, any display that has greater than (or equal to) these resolutions could be called "full HD". Your PDP-506HD falls into that category (as does my 1366 x 768 LCD set).

"Standard" HDTV broadcasts are either 720p (progressive - like ESPN) or 1080i (interlaced - like CBS), depending on their cameras and broadcast setups. Trying to label sets that can accept 1080p as the only ones that are "true HD" is totally incorrect. That's a false impression created by people that have been brainwashed by advertising (and other non-technical) people (= FUD).

You are right, all flat panel displays (LCD or Plasma, as well as DLP sets) are progressive (only CRT displays are interlaced). It does not make any difference if a display can only accept a 1080i input, it is still a "true HD" set. There are only a few 1080 sets that can accept a 1080p input (due to bandwidth limitations). Also, not all high definition DVD players (HD-DVD or Blu-ray) can output a 1080p signal (for the same reason), even though the movies on them are encoded as 1080p/24fps).

ALIS plasmas have been around for a long time. FHP still makes them and they are basically interlaced plasmas. Here's a description for the newer "Full HD" panels. http://www.hitachi-cpx1.com/techtv.do?groupid=3

larry

Just to be clear as far as HDTV goes in the US there is NO real "standard" as far as res or frame rate goes.

This is what the FCC recommended

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Medi...s/fcc96207.txt

"9. Format selection: The ATSC DTV Standard supports a variety of scanning
formats. Table I shows the number of scanning lines and horizontal picture elements (or
pixels) per line, which affect resolution. For reference, our rules for NTSC television
broadcasting specify 483 active video lines per frame, with 42 lines in vertical blanking
intervals with no video information, for a total of 525 lines. The 720-line and 1080-line
formats below represent high resolution video and might be used for motion pictures, other
programs captured on film, programs shot with HDTV cameras including sporting events and
concerts, and animation and graphics that might be computer-generated. The lower-resolution
480-line formats accommodate existing NTSC programming and equipment as well as
material designed for viewing on VGA computer monitors.

Table I

1080
1920
16:9
60I 30P 24P

720
1280
16:9
60P 30P 24P

480
704
16:9 4:3
60I 60P 30P 24P

480
640
4:3
60I 60P 30P 24P"
____________________________________________________________ ____

Looks good but here is what was adopted

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Medi...6/fcc96493.txt

"1. In this, the Fourth Report and Order in our digital television ("DTV") proceeding, we
adopt a standard for the transmission of digital television.1 This standard is a modification of the
ATSC2 DTV Standard proposed in the Fifth Further Notice of Proposed Rule Making and is
consistent with a consensus agreement voluntarily developed by a broad cross-section of parties,
including the broadcasting, consumer equipment manufacturing and computer industries.3 As
explained below, the Standard we adopt does not include requirements with respect to scanning
formats, aspect ratios, and lines of resolution.4 For clarity, we will refer to this modified standard as
the "DTV Standard.""

They left it up to the industries to do what they want

__________________________________________________ ______
Here is what the NTSC says

http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/fs-1037c.htm

high-definition television (HDTV): Television that has approximately twice the horizontal and twice the vertical emitted resolution specified by the NTSC standard. Note 1: In HDTV, the total number of pixels is therefore approximately four times that of the NTSC standard. Note 2: HDTV may include any or all improved-definition television (IDTV) and extended-television (EDTV) improvements. Note 3: HDTV employs a wide aspect ratio.
__________________________________________________ _____________
Here is what the ATSC says

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_53-Part-1-2007.pdf

High-definition television (HDTV) – High-definition television has a resolution of
approximately twice that of conventional television in both the horizontal (H) and vertical
(V) dimensions and a picture aspect ratio (H × V) of 16:9. ITU-R Recommendation 1125
further defines “HDTV quality” as the delivery of a television picture which is subjectively
identical with the interlaced HDTV studio standard.


For broadcast ATSC uses the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) standards.

So Hitachi or anyone else can call almost anything "Full HD" because as far as TVs are concerned there is no standard in the US.

Since HD is defined as either 1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080 pixels,

Real FullHD is the second one, 1920x1080.

Thanks for replies, can the video processing in high quality plasmas such as Pioneer and Panasonic deinterlace 1080i as well as they deinterlace 480i or is 1080i deinterlacing a very processor hungry job that ideally is done by an external processor...I know the question has an obvious answer (ie external processors are better)...but just wanting to know how wide the gap is between the two these days (our HDTV in Australia has 4 channels in 1080i and one does 720p).

Thanks, Ben

Well, outside of correct technical specs, "full HD" has been used by advertisers to mean 1080p lately.

As opposed to HD (1080i or 720p).

I noticed an ad where the set was advertised as full HD 1080i and thought is was kind of unethical.

Consumers are already confused and using interlaced and progressive specs to make a product sound better when most people don't know or care is troubling.

If there is a downturn in the US/World economy, I am sure it will get worse.

Well, outside of correct technical specs, "full HD" has been used by advertisers to mean 1080p lately.

As opposed to HD (1080i or 720p).

I noticed an ad where the set was advertised as full HD 1080i and thought is was kind of unethical.

Consumers are already confused and using interlaced and progressive specs to make a product sound better when most people don't know or care is troubling.

If there is a downturn in the US/World economy, I am sure it will get worse.if you recall, most companies advertised their 720p/1080i sets as "FUll HD" before 1080p was established.

"Real" full HD is a marketing term.

Real full HD should mean 1920x1080 with full 60p and 24p(displayed at 48/72/96/120p) support. everything else 720p or above should be labeled HD only.

I get annoyed cause every time they put it in the Sears ad, I have to deal with customers who get pissed when I tell them it's not 1080p. "But the add says FULL HD"

Just to make sure we're all on the same page - some of Hitachi's models are "HD 1080" - which denotes a 1280 x 1080 resolution. The others that are called "Full HD" are indeed 1920 x 1080. Agreed it's not the clearest distinction, but how many consumers are being thrown off by the "1080" number without realizing what it actually means?

I think Hitachi has an excellent argument that there TV's do "Full HD". The highest HD TV spec is 1080 lines delivered in an interlaced format. Wouldn't the 1920 x 1080i ALIS Hitachi TV's be “Full HD”? It can display all the detail as broadcasted.

Playing devils advocate, it could be argued that converting 720p to 1080i is a down convert since half of each 720p frame is lost due to interlacing. It is more frequently argued that 1080i to 720p is also a down conversion since vertical (from static and low movement scenes) and horizontal (from all frames) resolution is lost.

Since it is a down conversion in either case 1080p would be "Full HD" because detail is NEVER lost.

Is this all because of the ALIS panels that Hitachi use in the plasmas? It would make some sense. The resolutions don't match up, but the logic does.

Is this all because of the ALIS panels that Hitachi use in the plasmas? It would make some sense. The resolutions don't match up, but the logic does.

Kind of. Hitachi's current plasma lineup is all ALiS technology, which they now refer to as "Clear Window" technology. The only one I'm not sure about is the 60" Director's Series - Hitachi Canada's literature says it is NOT Clear Window, while the website says it is. Regardless, the 1080 number is indeed a result of the ALiS technology, which provides 1080 lines of vertical resolution - an exact match for the 1080i HDTV standard in which most networks now broadcast. No scaling necessary, which translates into higher resolution and a smoother picture than the 768p competition. Or at least that's what Hitachi claims.

The ironic thing is that Hitachi's NON-ALiS panels seem to garner the better reviews. One of the primary factors in my decision to purchase a 55HDX99 was reading an article - the only one I've ever found in a commercial magazine on this topic for any plasma - on this set's ability to deinterlace a 1080i signal and display it in the native resolution of 768p. The review said the set did it perfectly, and said that was something only a very few plasmas get right. So it's kind of ironic that Hitachi has the ability to deinterlace a 1080i signal perfectly, yet has gone with a technology that doesn't require scaling as its main selling point. The ALiS technology is supposed to produce a more detailed, seamless and film-like picture, but the reviews of those sets have not really supported that. They tend to focus on the weak blacks of ALiS. Meanwhile, the non-ALiS Hitachis from 2006 were quite well-received. Interesting.