So, assuming money is no object, what's the best sub for my setup and issues?

I have a dedicated HT, Onkyo 905, upgrading 7.1 setup to Paradigm Studio 100's (or Axioms, or Asperion's, probably not B&W's). Mostly HT/TV, a little music. Front projection system, so only the seats are on the floor. And the sub, of course. All equipment hidden away.

My room is only 12x15, with no real sound treatment (other than being super-insulated all around, in-wall).

I was looking at the SVS PB13-Ultra, as the CraigSub list has it as the top rated one that is a reasonable physical size.

The ED A7-900 looks amazing, but at 4'x2'x2', I think it would just be physically too big for my room. It would be a coffee table for my seats!

Thus my potential issues. I think I need something reasonably sized (not huge), and I have a carpeted floor so I'm not sure down-firing subs will be great for my room (but I'm kind of a newbie, so I'm probably wrong here).

Any suggestions? I'm planning to get the sub first, and then get the speakers in a couple months. I really want to get the best sub money can buy, for my room.

Thanks in advance for any advice!
-Mark

Stack 4 SVS PB13 Ultras in a corner, should do he trick. And take up minimal space.

If money is really no object, then I would opt for two Fathoms or a Gotham.

One Fathom 113 should be plenty for that room. Small room $$ no object keep the sub small. Unless you like the looks then get a large SVS ultra or Mfw15 those 3 look nice. So If $$ no object it should look nice imo.

If you want something small that really packs a wallup, Axioms new EP400 sealed DSP controlled sub is a fabulous performer, and the 500 watt DSP amp is pretty sweet.

If money is no object, contact Mark Seaton, get his advice on achieving the best bass in your room, and then pay him to come out and set the system up for you. I'm sure you wouldn't be dissapointed with the results.

Thanks for the responses so far... So is this list just innaccurate:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

?

Most of the recommendations so far have been pretty far down on the list. Just curious, as I was using this list as a baseline.

The responses are due to your room size. The F113 is the smallest of the bunch with great output. The ones above are larger ported boxes. It'll depend on how much room you can give to your sub.

Thanks for the responses so far... So is this list just innaccurate:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136

?

Most of the recommendations so far have been pretty far down on the list. Just curious, as I was using this list as a baseline.


Hi Mark,

Many of the subs at the top of Craig's list are rather large, and in your first post you noted that you need to be practical for a 12' x 15' room (I agree). In a small room like you have, multiple subwoofers will usually provide the best response. Small rooms provide a lot of gain to the lowest frequencies. In a room your size we can expect to see increasing gain below 25-30Hz. This is gain as compared to a subwoofer being in a large, open space. In smaller rooms subwoofer location and equalization tend to be more important, and output down in the 20Hz range is not as challenging for a quality subwoofer. Some subwoofers designs will better take advantage of the low frequency gain of the room.

Craig's own home theater is larger, and there has been a real push of late for the most bang/buck, which will always be had with larger and larger subwoofers due to laws of physics. You can still get equal or better performance in smaller packages, it just tends to cost more as the amplifier and driver requirements are much greater.

Well, if money really is NO object, I would go with the Krell Master Reference dual 15" sub. Goes for about $28k. Oh a more serious note, I would go with 2 Epik Conquest subs - or an Hsu VTF3 with turbo and the 12" Hsu mid bass module.

The responses are due to your room size. The F113 is the smallest of the bunch with great output. The ones above are larger ported boxes. It'll depend on how much room you can give to your sub.

Right - so (I know I'm showing my ignorance), the PB13-Ultra looked to me like the first one on the list that was reasonable in size (2'x1.5'x1.5'). Pretty small, and the #3 on the list, and the description sounded pretty good. The F113 is roughly the same size, but ranked a little lower (on both scales).

But that's all I was basing it on.

Is the F113 better than the PB13-Ultra for my room size? Is it better for some other reason (better built, better resale, some missing feature, something else)?

I have an Onkyo 905, if that makes a difference (like if I needed a better/bigger amp for some of these).

Thanks for your patience!

Svs ultra is 4" wider,7 1/2" deep then the F113. That's alot is space is and issue. If not get the Svs and save $$ Both look nice.

Right - so (I know I'm showing my ignorance), the PB13-Ultra looked to me like the first one on the list that was reasonable in size (2'x1.5'x1.5'). Pretty small, and the #3 on the list, and the description sounded pretty good. The F113 is roughly the same size, but ranked a little lower (on both scales).

But that's all I was basing it on.

Is the F113 better than the PB13-Ultra for my room size? Is it better for some other reason (better built, better resale, some missing feature, something else)?

I have an Onkyo 905, if that makes a difference (like if I needed a better/bigger amp for some of these).

Thanks for your patience!

Epik Castle is as good as ultra, cheaper and roughly the same size. Consider that too.

"So, assuming money is no object, what's the best sub for my setup and issues?"

I would get the Svs Ultra for looks. But for me I would save $$ for equal performance and get the Castle. Because equal ratings but I prefer HT may have more slam? Then take the savings and get a SMS-1

If money is no object, contact Mark Seaton, get his advice on achieving the best bass in your room, and then pay him to come out and set the system up for you. I'm sure you wouldn't be dissapointed with the results.

This sounds like a winner. I don't see how you can go wrong with this option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike
If money is no object, contact Mark Seaton, get his advice on achieving the best bass in your room, and then pay him to come out and set the system up for you. I'm sure you wouldn't be dissapointed with the results.

This sounds like a winner. I don't see how you can go wrong with this option.

This is by far the best option listed here. Setup is 1/2 of the battle.

Right - so (I know I'm showing my ignorance), the PB13-Ultra looked to me like the first one on the list that was reasonable in size (2'x1.5'x1.5'). Pretty small, and the #3 on the list, and the description sounded pretty good. The F113 is roughly the same size, but ranked a little lower (on both scales).

The F113 is MUCH smaller than the PB13-Ultra. :) I would pick it due to better built-in EQ/settings and smaller size. The performance will be adequate (read very high) in such small room.

Google "JL Fathom 113 review" or "JL f113 review" and you will find that it is one of the most highly regarded subs on the planet. It has been described as "God's subwoofer."

There is more to a sub than how loud and low it can go and the f113 can go very loud and very low if you want it to. It is also very tight and crisp.

Yes, I am a fanboy. I have twin f113s in my HT, which is over twice as large as yours and they provide plenty of deep bass in my cave. :)

Is the F113 better than the PB13-Ultra for my room size? Is it better for some other reason (better built, better resale, some missing feature, something else)?


It's better in two ways that you would benefit from. The size is noticeably smaller which give you more flexibility in placement, but most importantly, it has a automatic ARO EQ feature which eliminates the bass peak. That's why it was stated above that placement is very important in a small room, because bass peaks are common in smaller rooms. For its size, the F113 is about as good as it gets in terms of performance. All the ones that are as good are much larger physically

Google "JL Fathom 113 review" or "JL f113 review" and you will find that it is one of the most highly regarded subs on the planet. It has been described as "God's subwoofer."

According to google the only person who ever described the F113 as "God's subwoofer" was you. :rolleyes:

Besides what would that make the Gotham? :D

Doesnt the svs have an EQ too? It's not automatic but would get the job done wouldnt it?

BTW, what about ed a7s-450 ? It hasnt been ranked but judging by the specs it could be amazing for the money, and not too big. 22.5" cube, sealed 18" 1300 watts, 860 shipped

According to google the only person who ever described the F113 as "God's subwoofer" was you. :rolleyes:

Besides what would that make the Gotham? :D

It was actually described as the "subwoofer of the gods".;)

I recommend you talk to Mark if you can afford the space. He's a bass god and he'll figure out a way to make your room rumble and shake.

Krell Master Reference Subwoofer

http://www.krellonline.com/imgs/MRS_page/0110_017_380X380_ANI.gif

It was actually described as the "subwoofer of the gods".;)

Which god? Their are as many religions as their are subwoofers.

how does that thing compare to the a7-900 ?

how does that thing compare to the a7-900 ?

This is how it compares: You can get 14 A7's for the price of one Krell.

This is how it compares: You can get 14 A7's for the price of one Krell.

Or, you could get like 17 Epik Conquests, which would freakin murder the Krell. (well, 2 Conquests would whoop that thing, everything Krell sells is ridiculously overpriced.)


Which god? Their are as many religions as their are subwoofers.

The imaginary ones. ;)

Wow, I can't believe we have gotten this far and no one has mentioned Velodyne! Their Digital Drive series is somewhat compact. It has full DSP contol with servo feedback for the ultimate in accurate reproduction, and is fully customizeable via onscreen display for the ultimate in tweakability. Their SPL series is also very good, cost less than the DD. You still get DSP control, and a automatic room eq using a microphone. I have a SPL1200R , which measures about 15" on a side. While it won't move the furniture, it does very good pressurizing the room and diggs pretty low, better than an old DBX 15" I had. I would have gone bigger but WAF was important.

This is all great feedback.

Aside from spending 30K, or paying someone to come into my house (an option, but I'm not sure I care quite that much for my sub at this point), is the conclusion that if the SVS PB13-Ultra is small enough, that it's the best one to get?

So basically, the CraigSub list is pretty accurate, and I should go by that list?

Is there any feature I'm not getting with the PB13-Ultra (like EQ functions, or something else), that a sub slightly lower down the list would give me? I saw some comments of this nature, but I couldn't quite understand them (I'm kind of a sub newbie), and they were followed by comments like the PB13 has something similar. I think?

So at this point, I'm leaning towards the PB13-Ultra, but I'm willing to pay more (or less) for something of comparable size (I really can't go much bigger), if I get something for it. Any ideas?

(Religious vendor-fan arguments aside as well.)

The PB13 + the SMS-1 would be a killer combo. You would be giving up no EQ functions this way and would still come in at about $2200 or less.

is the conclusion that if the SVS PB13-Ultra is small enough, that it's the best one to get?

So basically, the CraigSub list is pretty accurate, and I should go by that list?



Well, I would definitely buy the PB13. I like the looks/finishes, performance (amazingly good), sound quality, and the company that stands behind the problem (history, good reputation, service etc). It's a well rounded sub in every way. Even though other subs from Epik or eD may equal or beat it in some respects, I think the PB13 is still worthwhile and preferable to me

According to google the only person who ever described the F113 as "God's subwoofer" was you. :rolleyes:

Besides what would that make the Gotham? :D

God the father. :)

This is how it compares: You can get 14 A7's for the price of one Krell.

he said money no object

he can't fit a single a7 let alone 14 :D

I do get that part, but how literally does he mean it? Even when "money is no object", the pursuit of value is a good thing.

Well apart from ultra you can also consider Epik Castle/Tower or dual mwf-15's, those options are a bit bigger than ultra but still comparable, they're cheaper but they dont have the EQ.

Well apart from ultra you can also consider Epik Castle/Tower or dual mwf-15's, those options are a bit bigger than ultra but still comparable, they're cheaper but they dont have the EQ.

Does the PB13-Ultra have an EQ that the Epik doesn't? Or do I need something like the SMS-1?

Yeah pb13 has two-band EQ, other subs dont. Fathom has some kind of auto-eq

Yeah pb13 has two-band EQ, other subs dont. Fathom has some kind of auto-eq

Slight correction: It's a single band PEQ plus a room compensation control to rolloff the low end.

Slight correction: It's a single band PEQ plus a room compensation control to rolloff the low end.

My Onkyo 905 has a 5 (or 7) band EQ specifically for the sub, using Audyssey. I assume this is better than whatever is built into the PB13? Or would/should I also use the PB13 EQ/room compensation?

My Onkyo 905 has a 5 (or 7) band EQ specifically for the sub, using Audyssey. I assume this is better than whatever is built into the PB13? Or would/should I also use the PB13 EQ/room compensation?

That is questionable. The bass results when using Audessey are not always well liked. Folks often seem to feel the bass comes out a little weak. Personally, I use some EQ myself prior to running Audessey to make it easier for the Audessey to work, then use the Audessy, then goose up the gain by a few db to run my subs a little hot.

Supposedly budget is irrelevant so get a pair of JL113's. One is not enough in my experience.

The Krell is a sub for idiots. The price is laughable and the design is pretty dubious. That "fancy" amp tray wastes half of the enclosure volume so even if they used the best drivers on earth (which I doubt), the output and sound quality are not going to be anything special. When you factor in the price it's basically a piece of ripoff junk, regardless of what they put in it.

Krell has the luxury of never having to prove the sub is good at all. Nobody of any respectability will ever get a chance to test it objectively.

Supposedly budget is irrelevant so get a pair of JL113's. One is not enough in my experience.

The Krell is a sub for idiots. The price is laughable and the design is pretty dubious. That "fancy" amp tray wastes half of the enclosure volume so even if they used the best drivers on earth (which I doubt), the output and sound quality are not going to be anything special. When you factor in the price it's basically a piece of ripoff junk, regardless of what they put in it.

Krell has the luxury of never having to prove the sub is good at all. Nobody of any respectability will ever get a chance to test it objectively.

Price not being an issue doesn't mean just spend money for no reason. To your second point exactly.

The JL113's are ranked a fair amount lower than the SVS 13, the Epik's, and the eD. Any reason you recommend it over those? Other than making a point about price?

The Svs ultra rates 20% better in HT and 10% better in music vs the F113 just by Craigs ratings. In YOUR room the F113 may sound better than the Ultra. IMO you won't be able to tell the difference if a sub is @20% better unless they are side by side A,B & switched..You can buy the Svs and a SMS-1. get the Svs thats the one you like

IMO you won't be able to tell the difference if a sub is @20% better unless they are side by side A,B & switched..

Exactly! That's the hard part with the ID subs, there's nowhere to go listen to them, let alone do A/B comparisons.

Well, the PB13 won't be available for a couple months anyway, so I can keep pining over this until then, and see how many times I can be convinced to change my mind...

And I'm still trying to nail down my speaker upgrade!

Wow, I appreciate all the hard work that Craig has put into his reviews, but it is not the Holy Grail!

There are other people who have heard the JL side by side with SVS and preferred the JL.

The Svs ultra rates 20% better in HT and 10% better in music vs the F113 just by Craigs ratings. In YOUR room the F113 may sound better than the Ultra. IMO you won't be able to tell the difference if a sub is @20% better unless they are side by side A,B & switched..You can buy the Svs and a SMS-1. get the Svs thats the one you like

And the SVS is ported and the JL sealed which brings up a whole other set of performance issues that favor the f113. I will let the technos explain these to the OP.

And the SVS is ported and the JL sealed which brings up a whole other set of performance issues that favor the f113. I will let the technos explain these to the OP.

Who are the technos and why do you think they would support that sealed is inherently better than ported?

Where are you located AbMagFab? You'd be suprised where you can demo gear. Sometimes forum members will invite you over for a demo.

Supposedly budget is irrelevant so get a pair of JL113's. One is not enough in my experience.

The Krell is a sub for idiots. The price is laughable and the design is pretty dubious. That "fancy" amp tray wastes half of the enclosure volume so even if they used the best drivers on earth (which I doubt), the output and sound quality are not going to be anything special. When you factor in the price it's basically a piece of ripoff junk, regardless of what they put in it.

Krell has the luxury of never having to prove the sub is good at all. Nobody of any respectability will ever get a chance to test it objectively.

I was being sarcastic when I suggested it. :p I realize it's an overpriced piece of junk. People tend to assume the more you spend, the better the product. Sometimes it's true, but not always, and there's a point where you can only spend so much to get better sound before you start overpaying. I feel the same in regards to Wilson Audio, yes they make very nice speakers, but charging over $100,000 for ANY piece of audio equipment is ridiculous and a complete ripoff.

As I said before, I believe an Epik Conquest, an eD A7-700 or an SVS PB13U would easily match or outperform the Krell.

price of no consequence - but space limited, I'd go for dual or quad PC13 Ultras + SMS-1

To be sure, many good options have been mentioned. I would just like to put one more out there. I have had the Seaton Sound SubMersive1 for almost 8 months. I have had no regrets whatsoever. The SQ is on par with the best I have heard. I have heard subs that cost up to $10,000. This one has that something extra. It has proven to have usable output down to at least 12Hz, sometimes lower in just about every room that it has been measured in. You really don't need Mark to come and set it up for you. One or two of his subs and the Velo EQ would make for quite a solid setup. BTW my room is just a bit smaller then yours. Trust me when I say that it would be quite "fun" in a room that size.
Here is a bit more info on it.
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=1945927

Money not an object..are you sure ?

In this case the choice is quite easy, two JL AUdio Fathom f113's or one Gotham. Best built/sound quality. These are better built(cabinet,electronics and drivers) than 99% of subs (any make).

The output,dual f113's with room gain produce major SPL with ease.

People that bring less expensive subs forgot...money was not such a big object after all.

How about you get ONE F113, and then if that's just not enough, buy another one.

Wow, I appreciate all the hard work that Craig has put into his reviews, but it is not the Holy Grail!

There are other people who have heard the JL side by side with SVS and preferred the JL.
Like I said before if $$ is no object I would get the F113. Why have a big sub when the small sub is =?Craigs list give you an Idea but every sub is different in every room. Op is leaning towards the Ultra I would just get it. Or the Caliber or the Mfw 15. The differences imo would be much??Who listens that loud??

Well I guess I fall into the "money is no object" group. Nevertheless, I want exceptional performance and quality for my $$s. After listening side by side to the PB-Ultra13 and JL113 it becomes clear what to get. Both will perform but with different strengths. If you want maximum HT performance and don't mind the larger size, get the Ultra. If you are looking for more coherency and realism in music get the FL113. Never mind that the Fathom disappears into a room and has incredibly high WAF. Whoever suggests the Ultra or several recent vented subs is as good as the Fathom for music hasn't heard the pair side by side for any length of time with many different types of music over several sessions. :roll eyes:

Lists are woefully simplistic and inadequate tools for making purchase decisions. Do your own research as you are doing now and seek varied opinions. Something else to note, after just awarding Class A status to the FL113 a reputable group like you find at Stereophile is in no rush to award something like that to an Ultra.

At the end of the day that extra output from a port which we love for HT comes at a cost, more resonance and muddying of sound in the mid to high bass. Not as big an issue for HT but with high resolution equipment its an issue with music. And last I checked there is alot of music in movies as well.

Like several well informed posters have suggested... get the pair of JL113s. Or if money really is no object do what I did and also get a pair of Velodyne 18s, the other Stereophile Class A sub being a DD-18, to go along with the Fathom pair for good measure. :cool:

I've got a PB13 with Paradigm Studio 60's, and I think they blend quite nice with each other. At the time I purchased the PB, I looked hard at the F113, since it would have been smaller, but price won out in the end. Any of the mentioned choices would be good though. I've become a SVS fanboy over the years, so I'm a bit biased.

I've got a PB13 with Paradigm Studio 60's, and I think they blend quite nice with each other. At the time I purchased the PB, I looked hard at the F113, since it would have been smaller, but price won out in the end. Any of the mentioned choices would be good though. I've become a SVS fanboy over the years, so I'm a bit biased.

I'm actually looking at the Studio 60's/100's or Signature 4's, so that's good to know. Of course I might end up with the B&W 803D's if I can't get something that sounds close enough, but I'm concerned about them in my smallish room (especially the massive HTM2D).

I plan to buy the sub first, and the speakers after I can find somewhere to listen to them (my two local Paradigm dealers are pretty bad).

(And I'm mostly HT, and care most about the HT sound. I listen to some music, but I'm not a music guy, and if I have to, would sacrifice music quality for HT quality.)

I'm actually looking at the Studio 60's/100's or Signature 4's, so that's good to know. Of course I might end up with the B&W 803D's if I can't get something that sounds close enough, but I'm concerned about them in my smallish room (especially the massive HTM2D).

I plan to buy the sub first, and the speakers after I can find somewhere to listen to them (my two local Paradigm dealers are pretty bad).

(And I'm mostly HT, and care most about the HT sound. I listen to some music, but I'm not a music guy, and if I have to, would sacrifice music quality for HT quality.)

If you put high value on the importance of clean and powerful deep bass, objective test numbers would show that one PB13 can match the output of two f113's at 20hz. (6db) For HT, this can make a big difference. Believe it or not, you would be giving up nothing from the standpoint of music reproduction either. The only sacrifice is some floor space.

As an owner of a VAST quanity of subs and sub fanatic now building an army of DIY subs not restricted by size or driver/amp cost ...

The JL AUDIO Gotham is the sub to have,based on my first hand experience with the Fathom f113's. Sound quality is FIRST rate,no matter what some may claim,some here take an evaluation from a group as a HARD written in stone fact.

There is not a better(note better) sounding subwoofer than the JL Fathom in a package close to its size. Like I have said only a very high grade DIY sub ...WILL best the JL in SQ(not mere extension or higher output)better in every respect(distortion and you name it).

LMS-5400 15 or 18" in a sealed cabinet driven by the king of bass amps the Crown iTech 8000(not your regular DIY jobber EP2500 ;) ). And this setup will cost much more than dual Fathom subs ! So extreme quality does not come cheap. These drivers however are on hold so to speak,and you have to build a high class cabinet,not just some DIY fart box. A real class cabinet with apropriate covering.Here the cabinet alone can cost close to 2K (real deal Bird Eye Maple finish).

Hey MONEY AINT AN OBJECT. :)

I'd bet that for approximately 5 grand or so, Seaton could turn your room into a perfect bass chamber.

did the OP define his 'cost no object' with a ballpark figure?

does he have space for NON-colocated duals or quads?

I'd bet that for approximately 5 grand or so, Seaton could turn your room into a perfect bass chamber.

what about "full waveform"

:p

I actually think an Ultra would suit you quite well (for full disclosure, I have an Epik Conquest, an SVS PC+, and soon will have 2 AV123 MFW-15's).

Frankly, though -- in that size room there are a NUMBER of subs that will likely put a smile on your face at all kinds of pricepoints.

It seems that the concensus here is that the Fathom 113 is the best choice (lets say under $4k) for someone wanting a very MUSICAL sub (tight & realistic) rather than mainly a HT sub as the OP seeks. Does anyone disagree or have a better choice for someone more concerned with music performance?

The only other sub which fares as well for music applications because of its extraordinarly low distortion is the Velodyne DD-18 which I have listened to side by side with the FL113 for months. It does not have the output of the Fathom but continues to amaze me with how it reproduces bass textures.

I know many people have opinions about musicality but in that area, output graphs are not very meaningful. Only side by side comparisons can help you distinguish. For a vented sub the Ultra13 is a great sub for HT and sounds good with music but if you want to go the extra distance for music, which is my priority, run with the Fathom. :)

I'd bet that for approximately 5 grand or so, Seaton could turn your room into a perfect bass chamber.

Isn't that what I sort of said in post #52:p;). In a room that size 1-2 SubMersives would be incredible. I am not sure of the price of the new Terraformer but 1-2 of them should be able to change your religion in a room that size. I view Mark's offerings as custom jobs that we don't have to build our selves :).

It seems that the concensus here is that the Fathom 113 is the best choice (lets say under $4k) for someone wanting a very MUSICAL sub (tight & realistic) rather than mainly a HT sub as the OP seeks. Does anyone disagree or have a better choice for someone more concerned with music performance?

And, conversely, is the PB13-Ultra a better choice for mostly HT? I know the Fathom is really good, but is it better/worse/the same for HT?

(I also know these are all opinions, and if I could go listen to the PB13 next to a F113, I would, but I probably can't).

I'd bet that for approximately 5 grand or so, Seaton could turn your room into a perfect bass chamber.

I've done a half dozen rooms this small or slightly larger with 1-2 SubMersives. Unless the room was heavily treated and had some very intense main speakers, I wouldn't bother with anything larger or higher output than a pair of SubMersives. As Mike suggested, a pair of SubMersives with an SMS-1 (now that they've fixed the LF extension of the device) would be a system that can perform very well without my direct handling. I've previously posted measurements in rooms this size where a single SubMersive measures flat below 20Hz on down to 8-10Hz without any EQ. It's designed to do that. The only others I've seen that can manage that are the Triad Powersubs, possibly the Velo DD series, and the ACI Maestro, none of which have the headroom of the SubMersive. Ilkka's measurements show that while the F113 is very well behaved, it doesn't follow the natural 2nd order low frequency roll off a sealed alignment. That is a concious choice made which has both benefits and detriments in use and listening.

In this case what I think might be overlooked is that the sub 25Hz output is not going to be the limiting factor in such a small room. I would definitely want 2 subwoofer locations for a room this size, probably front and rear. In fact, the limiting factor in a room this size tends to be how much headroom is eaten up fighting room modes in the upper ocatave with EQ. Above 40Hz the SubMersive is more powerful than 2 Ultra 13s. It is that range which makes the F113 sound comparable in output to the Ultra13, even though it has more output near port tuning. Again, I would argue that in a room this size, with more capable subwoofers as being discussed, the 20Hz output will not be the limiting factor. Ironically the power to the speakers and the room acoustics will probably set the comfortable listening limits.

And, conversely, is the PB13-Ultra a better choice for mostly HT? I know the Fathom is really good, but is it better/worse/the same for HT?

(I also know these are all opinions, and if I could go listen to the PB13 next to a F113, I would, but I probably can't).

If money was truly no issue I would take the advice of Mojomike. I would buy the a Seaton designed subwoofer and and have him calibrate it to maximize the performance of your subwoofer. Room interactions can wreck any high performing subwoofer.

So, assuming money is no object, what's the best sub for my setup and issues?

I have a dedicated HT, Onkyo 905, upgrading 7.1 setup to Paradigm Studio 100's (or Axioms, or Asperion's, probably not B&W's). Mostly HT/TV, a little music. Front projection system, so only the seats are on the floor. And the sub, of course. All equipment hidden away.

My room is only 12x15, with no real sound treatment (other than being super-insulated all around, in-wall).

I was looking at the SVS PB13-Ultra, as the CraigSub list has it as the top rated one that is a reasonable physical size.

The ED A7-900 looks amazing, but at 4'x2'x2', I think it would just be physically too big for my room. It would be a coffee table for my seats!

Thus my potential issues. I think I need something reasonably sized (not huge), and I have a carpeted floor so I'm not sure down-firing subs will be great for my room (but I'm kind of a newbie, so I'm probably wrong here).

Any suggestions? I'm planning to get the sub first, and then get the speakers in a couple months. I really want to get the best sub money can buy, for my room.

Thanks in advance for any advice!
-Mark

I'm just curious to know what you ended up doing. With "money is no object", it would be interesting to know your choice and results.

I'm just curious to know what you ended up doing. With "money is no object", it would be interesting to know your choice and results.

It's really about the whole setup for me. I ended up with a Paradigm-heavy setup overall:

- Anthem Statement P5 amp
- Signature S6 FR/FL
- Signature C5 center
- Signature ADP3 SR/SL
- Signature S2 RR/RL
- SVS PB13 Ultra

Once this is all set up (still waiting on the S6's - the originals were damaged in shipment), I'll probably be replacing my Onkyo 905 (used as a pre-pro and ADP3 amp) with an Anthem Statement D2, and will get some sort of IcePower amp for the remaining 2 channels.

The sound is amazing. The PB13 is an incredibly capable and true sub. I'm amazed at how much better everything sounds when a proper sub is used (and calibrated). Filling in the lower range without distortion makes for a significantly more enjoyable HT experience.

I considered the Fathom F113, but after listening to it a few times, while it's an amazing sub, I think prefer the ported subs overall (I like the greater chest pounding). So I took a leap that the SVS PB13 Ultra would be as good as people said, and it is. While it's larger than the Fathom (a fair amount larger), it delivers similar or better sound (I'm mostly HT), and has a much more physical impact due to the ports (and likely my room size). Currently set at 20Hz with all ports open, but I'll be changing to 15Hz and one sealed port after my S6's arrive.

So I feel like I got the best of both worlds - extremely true and full bass, plus the make-my-chair-shake experience (where appropriate) that makes HT even more fun.

(A great scene is the beginning of SWII where that big silver ship is flying in, then explodes.)