So, got this great projector and now its time for the calibration to begin. Im hopping that some experts can shed light on getting this thing cablibrated right with their postings of their settings.

Im aware that all projectors are not exactly alike, but will still like to get some idea of their settings.

Thanks

Without getting into specifics...they have been all over the board. It would be highly unlikely that one person's settings would work for another.

But, not saying you can't play around. :)

I just bought Epson TW2000 (Pro 1080UB). Excellent projector!
One problem only - it so bright even in "Theater Black 2" mode. I'm thinking about ND2 filter. No way to manually control IRIS to adjust light output. Brightness paramer is not good solution - it cut off dynamic range because it acts via LCD matrix.

What color temp are you at? Also what brightness/contrast are you at?

Jason,
I set all parameters by default, Brightness/Contrast "0", Color temp 6500K, Gamma "2.2", Epson SuperWhite "Off", Lamp "Low".

Jason,

Seems that a post I placed yesterday got deleted....

Do you have any pics of the settings after calibration...thanks

Jason,
I set all parameters by default, Brightness/Contrast "0", Color temp 6500K, Gamma "2.2", Epson SuperWhite "Off", Lamp "Low".
Why?

Well I do have pictures...and I will post them. BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT....from my extensive testing on these units, they are all over the board. The results for this particular one may help your projector, or they may hurt your projector (at least in regards to the grayscale and colors-the standard settings should be about the the same). So, you are warned. :)

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Epson_1.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Epson_2.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Epson_3.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Epson_4.JPG

You can see on the CMS menu (#4) that the colors need major adjusting to bring into the HD709 standard.

Well I do have pictures...and I will post them. BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT....from my extensive testing on these units, they are all over the board. The results for this particular one may help your projector, or they may hurt your projector (at least in regards to the grayscale and colors-the standard settings should be about the the same). So, you are warned. :)
[..pictures removed..]

You can see on the CMS menu (#4) that the colors need major adjusting to bring into the HD709 standard.

Very interesting - if you reference my posting about my initial calibration attempts on the Home 1080UB http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12987593#post12987593

You will notice that my settings are different enough from Jason's to support the statement that all units are unique in this regard.

In retrospect (and something I will try when I get to tweaking again) I should have first started with the color saturation control etc, it would have likely helped reduced the amount of changes I had in the Advanced settings.

The most notable issue I see out of the box - is that skin tones tend to be overly red. I want to also experiment with the Skin Tone setting to see if simply adjusting this helps (and what effect that has on the grayscale/CIE)

Roo

I received my 1080UB this week and am trying to perform an initial rought calibration using HCFR & an EyeOne LT colormeter.

I used to own an Epson TW700, and it seemed to work differently for calibrating, namely that you had to choose between calibrating perfect greyscale using RGB, or perfect colour balance with RGBCMY. When you adjusted RGB, it eliminated the RGBCMY settings you chose, and vice-versa.

My questions on the 1080UB are as follows:

1. Is there a dedicated 1080UB tweak thread? And if not, is this the best place to post calibration questions?

2. Does the 1080UB allow for perfect greyscale and gamma settings with RGB, AND allow you to dial in the colour balance with RGBCMY?

3. During RGBCMY adjustments, on the 1080UB there is an added adjustment for each colour called "Brightness". What is the best method for calibration? Is it to leave the Brightness setting at 0 and only use the hue and saturation adjustments? If so, then colour balance cannot be dialed in perfectly for each colour as with green, for example, I have saturation & brightness at -64 and it is still not quite at reference. Whereas cyan for example I hardly have to touch the brightness. Could someone explain how this works?

4. More of a PS3 interaction question: Why can't I get the PS3 to pass pluge (blacker than black) bars on the brightness test patterns? And most importantly, with it not passing pluge, does it affect the pq as compared to a device that can pass pluge?

Thanks.

I received my 1080UB this week and am trying to perform an initial rought calibration using HCFR & an EyeOne LT colormeter.

I used to own an Epson TW700, and it seemed to work differently for calibrating, namely that you had to choose between calibrating perfect greyscale using RGB, or perfect colour balance with RGBCMY. When you adjusted RGB, it eliminated the RGBCMY settings you chose, and vice-versa.

My questions on the 1080UB are as follows:

1. Is there a dedicated 1080UB tweak thread? And if not, is this the best place to post calibration questions?

2. Does the 1080UB allow for perfect greyscale and gamma settings with RGB, AND allow you to dial in the colour balance with RGBCMY?

>>> Have you contacted Epson support on this (you'll probably need to speak with level 2 on this one).

3. During RGBCMY adjustments, on the 1080UB there is an added adjustment for each colour called "Brightness". What is the best method for calibration? Is it to leave the Brightness setting at 0 and only use the hue and saturation adjustments? If so, then colour balance cannot be dialed in perfectly for each colour as with green, for example, I have saturation & brightness at -64 and it is still not quite at reference. Whereas cyan for example I hardly have to touch the brightness. Could someone explain how this works?

>>> See 2 above.

4. More of a PS3 interaction question: Why can't I get the PS3 to pass pluge (blacker than black) bars on the brightness test patterns? And most importantly, with it not passing pluge, does it affect the pq as compared to a device that can pass pluge?

Thanks.

I've not found that their manual, like many, are designed for your level of calibration. I'd like to hear what they tell you. I've yet to find a CMS that really works correctly. Maybe this projector's will.

I've not found that their manual, like many, are designed for your level of calibration. I'd like to hear what they tell you. I've yet to find a CMS that really works correctly. Maybe this projector's will.

As mentioned, my last projector (Epson TW700) worked very well.

Hello all..


Was in the mood to reset my colours now that the epson has 60 hours on the bulb..

To my surprise, I got different values from previous values, and picture is even better now..

Again, these values are taking my screen offset into account.. The Screen is a 1.1 gain, matt white.. 80" with Epson 1080UB Pro...


Here is the NEW VALUES:

Screen Offset:

- x=0.003
- y=0.004

- Y=-22.16%


HDMI Range: Normal

Colour Mode = HD (on UB pro model) or (Theater black 1 - on NON pro model I think...)
Brightness = 3
contrast = -1
Color = 7
tint = 3

Sharpness = Advanced, will all levels at FULL (all way to right)

Color Temp = 6000k
Skin Tone = 3
Brightness = High
Iris = OFF

ADVANCED AREA:

Gamma = 2.4

White Point (RGB)

Red Offset = -19
Green Offset = 0
Blue offset = -4

Red Gain = -11
Green gain = 0
blue Gain = -15


As you can see, the GAMMA changes from 2.1 to 2.4.. The brightness, contrast were different, and the Grey Scale is close, but a little different..

Hope this helps..

Now the wait for the next calibration

Even though the 1080UB units differ by a good amount according to Jason and others, it seems as though the primaries are typically out in a similar manner, at least in the Theater Black Modes(home version). Green and Magenta need a lot of negative hue, and Green, Red, Cyan and Magenta are far out in saturation and need to be brought down.

Taking an average of Jason's numbers above, and Andrews numbers in the link should get you fairly close. The numbers would look like this:

R 8, -36, 0
G -52, -54, 0
B 5, 0, 0
C -2, -64, 0
M -14, -17, 0
Y 4, -8, 0


Epson 1080UB (courtesy of Andrew Low)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12987593#post12987593

This review seems to support this as well.
Epson Pro 1080 (I think this uses the same primaries phospors as the 1080UB)
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/Epson_PL_Pro.html

Dan

I think the best summary is that they will all vary. I suppose in theory one could average them, but that isn't to say that it will work on your unit.

Jason,

Can you recall anytime that the R,G, or B primaries have been undersaturated on the 1080UB units according to the REC.709 gamut? Just curious. It seems from the gamut charts, and calibrations I've seen that most all of the primaries typically need to be either kept where they are, or desaturated some.(green especially, sometimes red)

Also, do you mind sharing what hardware and software you use for your gamut adjustments?

Thanks,
Dan

The 3 most important calibration tips for this projector are:

1) The brightest presets (Dynamic and Living Room) severely limit the available gamut, so are impossible to achieve color accuracy.

2) Of the remaining presets, I believe that Natural is the brightest (Brightness is a problem for this unit because it only has a 170W bulb. Reviewers who noted its brightness were using Dynamic or Living Room modes and were unconcerned or unaware of their lack of color accuracy). In its calibrated state, you can expect 250-350 lumens.

3) In the Natural mode, the primary and secondary colors (especially RGCY) are all quite oversaturated and need to be reigned in by the included CMS, which works very well. However, you should NOT reduce the saturation of RGBCYM without ALSO raising their Brightness. Doing so will leave colors looking flat and dull and less accurate than in the unadjusted state. The addition of the Brightness control in the CMS along with the higher contrast LCD panels is what makes this projector such a remarkable improvement over its predecessor.

This projector is a joy to calibrate. If you know what you are doing and with the right instruments you can dial in a nearly perfect image. I can count on one hand the number of displays I would say that about. Unfortunately, because it is a relatively inexpensive unit, the reviews of it have not focused on its image adjustment capabilities, which are profound.

The only downsides are:

1) Inherent limitations to LCD technology, primarily low fill factor.
2) Relatively low brightness post calibration.
3) Unpredictable quality control issues having to do with panel alignment and white field uniformity.

Jason,

Can you recall anytime that the R,G, or B primaries have been undersaturated on the 1080UB units according to the REC.709 gamut? Just curious. It seems from the gamut charts, and calibrations I've seen that most all of the primaries typically need to be either kept where they are, or desaturated some.(green especially, sometimes red)

Also, do you mind sharing what hardware and software you use for your gamut adjustments?

Thanks,
Dan

Nary 1 for R or G. But, B is often a bit under.

Thanks Jason. That seems to correlate with what I've seen from reviews of the 1080UB.

Tom,

Excellent info, thanks. I've only used the 1080UB in Theater Black 1 mode, so I should be able to get the full gamut. I know what you're saying about some of the brighter modes, an extra green filter is removed from what I understand to boost the lumens, as well as having the lamp in the higher output mode.

Is there a rule of thumb for how much brightness you need to add relative to the amount you desaturate a primary color? Let's say foo instance you reduce red by 30 points in the CMS menu, how much do you need to boost the brightness?

I noticed exactly what you are talking about after I greatly reduced green and cyan saturation per other calibrtations that I've seen. The greens ended up as a dark grayish green. I'll try messing around some more tonight. Right now, I'm just playing around until I get some calibration hardware. (probably an i1pro, but not sure)

Dan

Is there a rule of thumb for how much brightness you need to add relative to the amount you desaturate a primary color? Let's say foo instance you reduce red by 30 points in the CMS menu, how much do you need to boost the brightness?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10632798&postcount=1

Most welcome!

Tom,

Yes, that is an excellent thread!

The weird thing is, if I leave main color and tint control in the default zero locations, but then go into the CMS menu, I need to add saturation to Blue, Green, and Red primaries when using my Avia color filters. The blue filter from my DVE disc gives the same result for blue. This is using the downloadable REC.709 Blu-Ray disc.(which is burned to a standard DVD)

Blue = +25
Red = +10
Green = +5
Tint is too hard to see for adjustment with the color filters in my experience.

After doing this though, I do find myself bumping down the color level in the main menu to -5 because the colors look a little strong.

I just need to get some hardware. I love tweaking with it, but don't want to drop $700 for a i1pro and Calman. I wish there were another option at a lower cost that could be accurate for gamut adjustments. From what I understand, colorometers just aren't good for that. They are o.k. for grayscale however.

Dan

The weird thing is, if I leave main color and tint control in the default zero locations, but then go into the CMS menu, I need to add saturation to Blue, Green, and Red primaries when using my Avia color filters. The blue filter from my DVE disc gives the same result for blue. This is using the downloadable REC.709 Blu-Ray disc.(which is burned to a standard DVD)

Blue = +25
Red = +10
Green = +5
Tint is too hard to see for adjustment with the color filters in my experience.

After doing this though, I do find myself bumping down the color level in the main menu to -5 because the colors look a little strong.

I just need to get some hardware. I love tweaking with it, but don't want to drop $700 for a i1pro and Calman. I wish there were another option at a lower cost that could be accurate for gamut adjustments. From what I understand, colorometers just aren't good for that. They are o.k. for grayscale however.Dan: You are using filters in a way they were not intended to be used. They should NOT be used with a CMS to adjust saturation. They are for color decoding adjustments only: Color and Tint.

The 1iPro is more accurate, but the Display 2 is pretty darn good. Its accuracy is satisfactory for all but the most demanding applications. There is no reason to think that colorimeters are somehow good for gray scale but not for color. This is an often-repeated myth. See
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=958099
for raw data and head-to-head comparisons. I would, however, avoid the Spyder2.

O.k., off to buy a Display 2 or DTP-94!! (by the way, do you mind indicating which you prefer?) They both look fairly comparable to me, both price and performance.

Thanks again Tom. I can't wait to start tweaking.

Dan

o.k., off to buy a display 2 or dtp-94!! (by the way, do you mind indicating which you prefer?) they both look fairly comparable to me, both price and performance.

Thanks again tom. I can't wait to start tweaking.d2

My order is being processed. I should have the D2 next week. It's actually the colorometer from the Eye-One Display LT package which I understand is the same meter as the Display2 package.

Thanks again!

Dan

Edit: Please see my later post for more accurate recommendations for calibration settings

Dan

This may be a question that would be better answered in the calibration forum but, do you think that the chroma5 device would have given you any better (or quicker) calibration than you got?

Quicker, no. The Eye-One Display 2 or Eye-One Display LT (both use the same colorometer) are very fast. I never felt like I was waiting on the meter to take the measurement. Most of the time was making decisions in the projector menu based on the information I was getting back from the meter.

Better accuracy? Not sure. I've seen some comparisons of this meter (i1D2) to the Eye-One Pro (i1pro) that show it to give near exact results for LCD displays, and another comparison that show a perceptable difference between the two. (but not a huge difference)

Another way to say it... I'm so happy with the new color accuracy that I don't feel the need to make it any better. To be honest, I'm not sure I could tell if it got any better than it is now. I think all of the meters are going to give you a huge improvment versus what you can do by eye. From that point, your paying a lot of extra money for a little bit of improvement with the other meters in my opinion. The i1LT (same meter as i1D2) is only $150 and the software is free.

Dan

Dan--

Looks great. Thanks for sharing the information and details.

What did you do to adjust the gamma? I know how/where in the Epson menu, but I'm not familiar with the Eye-One D2 and HCFR. So were you using info from that to manually tweak the gamma settings from the curve?

Thanks!
Rich

Dan--

Looks great. Thanks for sharing the information and details.

What did you do to adjust the gamma? I know how/where in the Epson menu, but I'm not familiar with the Eye-One D2 and HCFR. So were you using info from that to manually tweak the gamma settings from the curve?

Thanks!
Rich

Thanks.

Yes, I was manually tweaking the custom gamma in the Epson menu using the Eye-One D2 and HCFR. Using a set of test patterns from the free AVS REC 709 Blu-Ray disc (0-100% greyscale, in 10% increments) I was able to manually adjust the gamma to meet the proper curve.

The AVS REC-709 test disc is a file you download, and burn to a regular DVD, but it plays in your Blu-Ray player in 1080P and has all the test patterns on the disc. Very nice.
Here's a link to that:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

Here's a link to discussion of the HCFR software:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=786966

Here's a fantastic guide about calibrating using the same tools I did:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Dan

Another thing I noticed, and I think it might be a limitation of my colorimeter, is that I couldn’t move the blue primary much at all no matter how much I adjusted Saturation and Hue. The y value wanted to stay at about 0.08 all the time, instead of 0.06. Is the Eye-One D2 just not sensitive there, or is it a 1080UB CMS limitation?


I got my i1 D2 and HCFR software and just went past 50 hours on the 1080UB so I went thru the cal. I found the same thing regarding blue. Another thing I found was that I was able to get blue almost spot on the xy values for a HD REC 709 alignment but when viewing HD broadcasts with these settings my blues tended toward red/purple. I backed the blue left and up (as seen on the gamut), close to your settings actually, and the blues were more natural. In fact I found most of my RGBCMY settings are pretty close what you showed for a similar "calibrated gamut" on my unit.

Not having used the i1 D2 anywhere else, and not having any other colorimeter I cant offer anything helpful regarding the source of the blue issue.

There's nothing wrong with he D2's reading of blue.

There are two issues probably at work here. First, color management is generally less effective with blue than with other colors. Not sure why, but I have seen this on more than one display. Second blue is by far the dimmest of the three primaries so it is the hardest to get a good reading for. You might try using 100% test patterns for blue.

In any case, I haven't seen the problems with blue that you describe. The only problem I have seen is that green runs out of adjustment room before it can be fully desaturated to the proper point.

Tom,

I use the 100% window patterns for setting my primaries and secondaries. I am in low lamp mode though. I wonder if I move to high lamp mode, will the blue reading be more sensitive due to the stronger image? Hmm, might have to try that.

Dan

stereomandan.

Looking at your pics from page one. Does the green on the right vs the red on the right side of the image not bother you??? Looking at the images there is a definite green cast to every single image.

I have run thru the brightness, contrast, grayscale and color gamut and pretty much everything is spot on except blue in the gamut where I dont have quite enough range to line it up. I ran a set of grayscale test with everything in its as delivered state and have run them multple times after trying several deviations such as lowering contrast and reducing the "levels" of RGB for full bright gray. Each time my luminance comes out increasingly hot as I move from 10% thru 90% and my gamma numbers are too low. Here is a gamma plot.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=120331&stc=1&d=1222102017

This is from my "After calibration" file but the before looks the same. I tried shifting the projector gamma from 2.2 to 2.4 (that is what it was at the time this was saved) and it moved up a little overall. Seems like this and the hot luminance are related but I am not sure how to correct it.

stereomandan.

Looking at your pics from page one. Does the green on the right vs the red on the right side of the image not bother you??? Looking at the images there is a definite green cast to every single image.

Sometimes it bothers me, and the majority of the time I don't notice it. The pictures shown above diplays the problem pretty well. Most of the time it's not as noticeable. When I do notice it though, it annoys me. I measured my white field uniformity, and it's a lack of red that you are seeing on the right 1/3 of the image. From the center to the far left it tracks pretty even. When I get to the far right side, blue and green are still o.k., but red drops off by 20%. That's why it looks green/blue.

I plan to call Epson to request a replacement, but haven't gotten around to it. Everything else about the picture is very good. Convergence is very good, focus uniformity is good... so I'm nervous that I will have a hard time finding another one as good as this. I guess if the replacement isn't as good, I can just send it back and keep my current projector and ask for another replacement.

Dan

wclark,

1) What test disk are you using for your 0-100% grey windows? Is it the AVS REC-709 Blu-Ray download?
2) What is your Blu-Ray player and what are the setting for the output of the player, and the input signal on the Epson?
3) Are you calibrating with the IRIS on or off?

What is your contrast set at? It looks like your contrast it set too high. This will make the 90% grey window look like it has a very high gamma. Keep brightness where it is, and turn down contrast 10 notches, and see it if the gamma curve gets better.

I had to use the custom gamma and tweak it a lot to get the gamma to track 2.22. Also, the only reason I have +11 for my contrast setting is becuase I have my PS3 player set to output whiter than white (SuperWhite On) and the Epson set to expanded HDMI.

Dan

The test disc is Tom Huffman's DVD_calibration.nrg.

The DVD player isnt an HD player. It is an LG LDA-531 that is upscaling to 1080i (max - no 1080P). It doesnt have any HDMI output settings other than resolution. The projectors HDMI input is set to Auto and HDMI Video range set to normal

The other settings on the projector are:

Mode Theater Black 1
Brightness -3
Contrast -15
Color Sat -3
Color Temp 6500K
Brightness Control (lamp) Low
Auto Iris Off
Epson Super White Off

To see what contrast and HDMI video range expand do I tried each in turn. I turned contrast down to -24 (as far as it would go) and here is what I got:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=120361&stc=1&d=1222112360

I set contrast to -15 and changed the HDMI video range to expand:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=120362&stc=1&d=1222112360

This all seems way off. Perhaps I cant use the upverted output out of the standard DVD player to do this?

stereomandan..

That green on the right and pink on the left would drive me bonkers. You really have a serious problem there. Epson policy is zero fault so why are you worried?

Why do most of you seem to have turned off the Iris for calibration? Is it not possible to calibrate with the Iris engaged? Also, should you calibrate with the Iris turned on if you plan to use it? Thanks.

1)... Is it the AVS REC-709 Blu-Ray download?

By the way I downloaded the AVS Blu-Ray and HDDVD executables, unpacked them and using Nero, put the .iso(s) on 3 DVD+R. I cant load any using the LG, but I assume that must be normal for a non-HD/BluRay player.

Yes, you have to play it on a Blu-Ray player.

Dan

Yes, you have to play it on a Blu-Ray player.

Dan

Guess I will have to wait a bit then...:cool: I have my eye on that Sony BDP-550 due out soon. I think a bunch of other people do as well.

Thanks,
Walter

Well, I ordered a replacement projector. I figure if it's better, then I'll keep it, if not I'll send it back. Epson covers shipping anyway. The color shift is noticable, but not all the time. Worst case, I'll just keep mine. The only thing I don't like is that the replacements are refurbs, not brand new. If the color shift wasn't there, I'd be pretty much 100% happy with the projector.

Dan

Why do most of you seem to have turned off the Iris for calibration? Is it not possible to calibrate with the Iris engaged? Also, should you calibrate with the Iris turned on if you plan to use it? Thanks.The DI is an "enhancement" device, which is intended to "improve" the capability of the PJ. The purpose of calibrating is to get the best settings for the unit, this is harder to do (less possible) if the DI is engaged (since it modifies the PJ performance). By calibrating with the DI (and all other performance modifiers) turned off, you maximize the PJ "native" (inherent) performance. Afterwards, when you watch, with the DI turned on, you will then get even better contrast ratio performance.

I have run thru the brightness, contrast, grayscale and color gamut and pretty much everything is spot on except blue in the gamut where I dont have quite enough range to line it up. I ran a set of grayscale test with everything in its as delivered state and have run them multple times after trying several deviations such as lowering contrast and reducing the "levels" of RGB for full bright gray. Each time my luminance comes out increasingly hot as I move from 10% thru 90% and my gamma numbers are too low. Here is a gamma plot.


This is from my "After calibration" file but the before looks the same. I tried shifting the projector gamma from 2.2 to 2.4 (that is what it was at the time this was saved) and it moved up a little overall. Seems like this and the hot luminance are related but I am not sure how to correct it.There is something very wrong here. This looks like a defective unit to me me. Your gamma should not look like this.

Thanks Wiebe,
It seems to make sense that if you calibrate your grey scale with the DI off and then turn it on then everything will stay relative. But won't your Black level and White level have to be recalibrated after the DI is engaged?

The DI is an "enhancement" device, which is intended to "improve" the capability of the PJ. The purpose of calibrating is to get the best settings for the unit, this is harder to do (less possible) if the DI is engaged (since it modifies the PJ performance). By calibrating with the DI (and all other performance modifiers) turned off, you maximize the PJ "native" (inherent) performance. Afterwards, when you watch, with the DI turned on, you will then get even better contrast ratio performance.

I know there are only a few that have shared their results here but I get the sense that gamma should be a lot closer to 2.2, even before any cal, and shouldnt require the huge corrections I probably would need to bring these in line. I tried doing a custom gamma but dont have the range to bring the 70%-90% in line.

I will be gone for a few days but when I return I plan to try using a different DVD player, bypass the Monoprice switcher, and try a different input (probably VGA) to see where the issue lies. I dont have another display with an HDMI input to use to check the LG DVD player.

Thanks Wiebe,
It seems to make sense that if you calibrate your grey scale with the DI off and then turn it on then everything will stay relative. But won't your Black level and White level have to be recalibrated after the DI is engaged?With the DI turned "On", the white (Contrast control settings) level should not change, since the DI is an Iris type action to reduce the amount of illumination in darker scenes (thereby providing better black level detail).

After engaging the DI, I wouldn't re-calibrate, but it certainly is worthwhile to check the black level (Brightness control) performance to make sure it's not causing any black level clipping (which it shouldn't do).

Does anyone of you know about the TVD TV (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.cine4home.de/news/TV-Filter/TVFilters.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTW2000%2Bdreamio%2Bfilter%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den %26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Dnl-nl%26sa%3DG) filter they're selling in Germany? It's supposed to give a better picture when the projector is in high contrast modes but I was wondering if this can't be corrected with the settings and a calibration meter?

Well, I ordered a replacement projector. I figure if it's better, then I'll keep it, if not I'll send it back. Epson covers shipping anyway. The color shift is noticable, but not all the time. Worst case, I'll just keep mine. The only thing I don't like is that the replacements are refurbs, not brand new. If the color shift wasn't there, I'd be pretty much 100% happy with the projector.

Dan

If you return the projector within the first 30 days you are to get a new replacement and not a refurb. Dan wait till you watch a movie like "walk of the penguins" or anything that has white clouds going by suddenly turning green on the right. Your pics are proof of how bad it is. Hopefully you get one that does not have this shift. You will be extremely happy to rid yourself of half the screen green and the other half reddish pink. I mean why bother calibrating if you can never get the color cast on the screen proper. Good luck with the return.

If you return the projector within the first 30 days you are to get a new replacement and not a refurb. Dan wait till you watch a movie like "walk of the penguins" or anything that has white clouds going by suddenly turning green on the right. Your pics are proof of how bad it is. Hopefully you get one that does not have this shift. You will be extremely happy to rid yourself of half the screen green and the other half reddish pink. I mean why bother calibrating if you can never get the color cast on the screen proper. Good luck with the return.

The new one came in late last week, and the color uniformity is great... BUT there is some serious misconvergence in the area just left of center of the screen. It's in the area about 1/4 and 1/2 way across the screen from the left. There also seems to be a dust blob on the very far left of the screen. (dark red blurry circle about the size of a volley ball on my 106" screen). This is only noticeable on black scenes though. The misconvergence is noticeable almost all the time, as it makes the picture, and especially text, look soft/blurry. The red is shifted almost 2 pixels to the left. Everywhere else it is great. The focus uniformity also looked slightly better on this replacement projector.

Oh well, I'll send it back for another. I'd rather have the color shift than blurry text and a dust blob.

Dan

The new one came in late last week, and the color uniformity is great... BUT there is some serious misconvergence in the area just left of center of the screen. It's in the area about 1/4 and 1/2 way across the screen from the left. There also seems to be a dust blob on the very far left of the screen. (dark red blurry circle about the size of a volley ball on my 106" screen). This is only noticeable on black scenes though. The misconvergence is noticeable almost all the time, as it makes the picture, and especially text, look soft/blurry. The red is shifted almost 2 pixels to the left. Everywhere else it is great. The focus uniformity also looked slightly better on this replacement projector.

Oh well, I'll send it back for another. I'd rather have the color shift than blurry text and a dust blob.

Dan

It shouldn't take many $50 shipping charges for them to realize, "Hey, we should QC this refurb before we send it to him cause if not, its coming back." Of course it won't happen this way, but its fun to use your imagination. :)

I received my Eyeone LT colorimeter and had a go at calibrating my greyscale and color this weekend. My ultimate goal was to be able to use one of the brighter modes with the DI enabled and have it look as nice as the xyY preset. The xyY preset has what looks like a perfect greyscale and colors, but you cannot enable the DI.

After a few hours going through the process, I have improved the image but I still believe the xyY preset looks FAR better. Is it unrealistic to think I can dial in an image that looks as good as the xyY preset but allows me to use the DI?

Perhaps that's why they've created the filter I was talking about 4 posts above yours.

The new one came in late last week, and the color uniformity is great... BUT there is some serious misconvergence in the area just left of center of the screen. It's in the area about 1/4 and 1/2 way across the screen from the left. There also seems to be a dust blob on the very far left of the screen. (dark red blurry circle about the size of a volley ball on my 106" screen). This is only noticeable on black scenes though. The misconvergence is noticeable almost all the time, as it makes the picture, and especially text, look soft/blurry. The red is shifted almost 2 pixels to the left. Everywhere else it is great. The focus uniformity also looked slightly better on this replacement projector.

Oh well, I'll send it back for another. I'd rather have the color shift than blurry text and a dust blob.

Dan

Heh Dan.. That is unfortunate. I had a customer that had the same red blurry circle on his projector. It was on the left side of the screen about a 1/3 the way up the screen, and about as you say the size of a volleyball. It definitely was not a dust blob tho. I spent about 5 hours trying to get to the problem and had it sent back as well as it was annoying on dark scenes. I thought it may be a flaw in the actual lens as I couldnt find a spec of dust.

It is difficult to appreciate what type of environment a manufacturer would test a projector. I think it would be very difficult to pick up on this type of error .... the red volleyball size haze. Where is a manufacturer going to inspect this? I am sure that it would be difficult to see in any environment they would use in a manufacturing facility and certainly I do not think that they would have employees working in a theater mode room. I could be wrong but I think some things would just be too expensive to check. What would be an interesting statistic would be >>

How many people buying a projector for the first time or replacing a unit that is say 5 years old would be as discerning about their purchase flaws as say would be AVS avid readers or people that have been in this for a while and know what expectations are realistic? I think the percentage is relatively low. Epsons price point was likely based on a certain volume and QC practice. There is no such thing as perfect and likely the level of fault has to be set upon the number of units that would have to fail QC and be sent back for reassembly thus obviously driving the price up.

Wish you better luck getting a good one and it will worthwhile when you do.

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this.

I just got my new 1080ub and theres definately some misconvergence. red is off at lease one pixel north. I see it on all white letters/titles, etc. I was wondering if theres some test to figure out exactly how much it is off.

Thanks very much

Thanks for the reply Mandarax. I'll order another and see how it goes.

Here is an update to my calibration:

I found out that adjusting the color saturation and tint in the main user menu can have a big impact on the ability to properly adjust the color gamut. Tint rotates the gamut around the D65 grey point, and color saturation can make good changes to the overall gamut so that you don't have to do so much adjustment in the hue and saturation of each primary.

My new tint and color settings are -4, and -19 respectively. Remember to readjust your primary and secondary brightness correctly during calibration though. Reducing saturation on the 1080UB tends to bring down the brightness of each primary/secondary as well and it needs to be bumped back up to proper brightness.

Here is a picture of the result. Look at green especially. Before, I ran out of adjustment. Now I can get it dead on. The picture looks amazing, except for the color shift as mentioned earlier which isn't noticeable most of the time. Update: I got a new replacement projector from Epson to fix the color shift. The new projector calibrates like the latest calibration shown below. Excellent, and no color shift! Great focus and convergence too.

Latest Calibration:
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/pics/newgamut.jpg

Previous calibration without adjusting tint and color saturation:
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/pics/calibratedcie.jpg

From my 2nd replacement unit. A keeper. These will not be the same for all 1080UB's, but might help get you get a close starting point.
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/pics/newmainmenu.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/pics/newrgbcmy.jpg
Dan

Dan,
That calibration looks nice. I will definitely try to lower the main color saturation to get my green and red in line. Thanks for the tip! Would you say that the image you are getting now is better than the xyY preset?

Thanks.

Yes, it's better than any of the presets. Do you adjust the luminance for each primary and secondary after you adjust each saturation and hue?

Dan

I believe I did adjust the luminance, but I'll need to check.

I believe I did adjust the luminance, but I'll need to check.

Good idea. It makes a huge difference. Just for reference, if you are using 100% windows for color, then measure your 100% white luminance value and this is what the primaries and secondaries should be compared to 100% white:

Brightness:
Red: 21.3%
Green: 71.5%
Blue: 7.2%
Yellow: 92.8%
Cyan 78.7%
Magenta: 28.5%

The same goes for if you are using 75% color windows. Measure a 75% grey window and write down the luminance value. Then use the percentages above to get the correct brightness for each primary and secondary. So if the 75% grey window is 20 cd/m^2, then red should be 4.26 cd/m^2...

FYI, the 75% windows seemed to give me a better picture when I used them to adjust my color gamut and brightnesses.

Dan

Okay. I remember doing that now. I'll hopefully have sometime work on my calibration again this weekend. How did you use the custom gamma to correct your gamma curve? Mine is still slightly off. When I look at the custom gamma, the graph (vertical lines) does not line up with the 10, 20, 30... IRE, so how did you use this?

If you pull up a test patten, like 30% grey for example, then go into the Epson custom gamma option. It will ask you if you want to adjust the gamma from the chart or the picture. Choose the chart. Find which slider makes the 30% window flash. Then you know you have the correct slider and move it up or down as necessary. You then have to exit the menu and remeasure. It's a pain, especially to do it for all the whole gamma curve, but it made a HUGE difference for me.

My gamma reference in HCFR is set at display gamma, 2.22. That's what I adjusted to. I'm not totally sure this is the correct setting, but it made a huge improvement. It's also fairly close to the Camera Gamma setting, and a value of 2.50 gamma in HCFR. This is something I'm still looking into, and I'm going to check what Calman gives me for gamma this weekend and compare to the HCFR curve.

Dan

Thanks for the reply Mandarax. I'll order another and see how it goes.

Here is an update to my calibration:

I found out that adjusting the color saturation and tint in the main user menu can have a big impact on the ability to properly adjust the color gamut. Tint rotates the gamut around the D65 grey point, and color saturation can make good changes to the overall gamut so that you don't have to do so much adjustment in the hue and saturation of each primary.



Thanks for the tip. This has made a big difference in getting my green primary to the correct levels.

davewou, I'm glad to help.

Update:
I got my second replacement projector today, and just hooked it up. Looks like a winner! I have to calibrate it tomorrow, but I'm pretty excited so far. The color uniformity looks great and the convergence is very good, even better than my current projector. From what I've seen so far, this one is a keeper and looks awesome. I can't wait to calibrate it.

Update: The new projector calibrates fantastic. Excellent, and no color shift! Great focus and convergence too.


Dan

Thanks again Dan! I'm going to try to get my greyscale perfectly lined up using that technique.

I had some time while away to read a LOT regarding Blu Ray players and in the end I decided on the PS3 (the 80G current product that was the 40G model until a month ago).

When I returned home today I re-ran my calibrations with the upscaling LG in all its HDMI resolutions. The gamma was still off as I showed earlier, though the 720P mode was the least poor. I could, thru the custom settings on the 1080UB, correct all but the 80% and 90% with decent accuracy. But the origin of the gamma problem was still a question.

Having decided on the PS3, I picked one up this afternoon and after minimal setup, mostly things on it are in default states, I re-ran the calibration. The gamma was almost dead flat at 2.0 with the Epson set to 2.2. Changing the Epson to 2.4 brought the gamma to 2.2. So, I know the source of the problem was the LG player, not the 1080UB. Now I just need to review all the settings suggested for the PS3-1080UB, in this thread and in the PS3 thread (750 pages - Yikes) and dial in the projector.

Oh...Before I forget, I put in a SD DVD to see how it does with them. HUGE improvement over the LG. I looked at the projector input page to see what the PS3 was sending and it was 1080P. I have read that the Epson may scale SD DVD better, but even if it doesnt do better I will be happy. Now to get a couple Blu Ray discs that arent test discs...

Good to hear you got it figured out.

Yeah, the PS3 does a great job upscaling. The Epson doesn't upconvert nearly as good as the PS3. I run all my SD-DVD and Blu-Ray through the PS3, set at 1080P. These are my settings:
PS3:
Superwhite on
RGB: Full
BD 24hz output: on

Epson:
Superwhite off
Extended RGB
24 hz on

There's some argument whether or not the PS3 should be set to RGB full, but it works for me. I think it only impacts games from what I've read.

Between the 3 1080UB's I've tested, they all are -7, or -8 for brightness with the settings above, and contrast is either 10, or 11. Color is -18 to -20, and tint has been -4, or -5. Then I go in and adjust the gamut.

Keep in mind this is all with the PS3 with the settings above. With a lot of other DVD players, the brightness and contrast should be set close to zero.

Dan

Thanks Dan. I sill start with your suggested settings.

Walter

davewou, I'm glad to help.

Update:
I got my second replacement projector today, and just hooked it up. Looks like a winner! I have to calibrate it tomorrow, but I'm pretty excited so far. The color uniformity looks great and the convergence is very good, even better than my current projector. From what I've seen so far, this one is a keeper and looks awesome. I can't wait to calibrate it.

Update: The new projector calibrates fantastic. Excellent, and no color shift! Great focus and convergence too.


Dan


Good to hear Dan.. Congrats.

That [pink/green] would have drove you nuts.

Good to hear Dan.. Congrats.

That [pink/green] would have drove you nuts.

Thanks Mandarax.

This new projector has been excellent. I only notice a little of the green/blue color shift, and it's only on the far right 10% of the image. Not enough for me to notice.

Dan

stereomandan,

I recently calibrated my 1080ub and found, similar to your cal, that lowering the color control seems to rotate the gamut around the D65 point, but not enough to get blue correct. All the other colors were very close.

Anyway, I noticed that your contrast and brightness settings were also similar to what I ended up after using several "calibration" disks. With these settings the blacks were beginning to crush. On several of the after calibration photos you posted the blacks seemed to be crushed as well (I know that this could be the computer monitor). I lowered my contrast and raised the brightness and the shadow detail was much better and I did not notice any difference with the ability to produce deep blacks. This was using Theatre Black 1 with the Iris off.

My Gamma was around 2.05 after several adjustments of the custom curve. I noticed on another thread you posted adjustments as high as -19. Did this help alleviate the crush once the curve was reading close to 2.2?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Dan -

Have you tried switching from low to high lamp brightness? If so does this result in any significant changes the the required calibration settings?

No. The brightness adjustment doesn't change the GAMMA. It adds a slight punch to the picture and sometimes distorts the colors, but no change otherwise.

Which setting is Extended RGB refering to in your above post concerning the epson settings. Under RGB all that I see is gain and offset for each color under RGB. Using all of the other numbers that you have posted has improved my image greatly. Thanks for the information.

Dan -

Have you tried switching from low to high lamp brightness? If so does this result in any significant changes the the required calibration settings?

Yes, it does. Not for the color gamut or the gamma, but for the greyscale tracking. For my unit, the low brightness mode requires a decent boost in the red primary gain and offset to track 6500k.

No. The brightness adjustment doesn't change the GAMMA. It adds a slight punch to the picture and sometimes distorts the colors, but no change otherwise.

Correct. That confirms what I see.

Which setting is Extended RGB refering to in your above post concerning the epson settings. Under RGB all that I see is gain and offset for each color under RGB. Using all of the other numbers that you have posted has improved my image greatly. Thanks for the information.

The extended RGB is on the PS3 I believe. I set the RGB output on my PS3 to extended RGB.

On the Epson, I believe the option I needed to choose was HDMI extended, or something like that.
stereomandan,

I recently calibrated my 1080ub and found, similar to your cal, that lowering the color control seems to rotate the gamut around the D65 point, but not enough to get blue correct. All the other colors were very close.

Anyway, I noticed that your contrast and brightness settings were also similar to what I ended up after using several "calibration" disks. With these settings the blacks were beginning to crush. On several of the after calibration photos you posted the blacks seemed to be crushed as well (I know that this could be the computer monitor). I lowered my contrast and raised the brightness and the shadow detail was much better and I did not notice any difference with the ability to produce deep blacks. This was using Theatre Black 1 with the Iris off.

My Gamma was around 2.05 after several adjustments of the custom curve. I noticed on another thread you posted adjustments as high as -19. Did this help alleviate the crush once the curve was reading close to 2.2?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

The black crush should not occur if you set brightness correctly. It's probably a factor of your gamma setting. If I were you, I would use the custom gamma and get it to match 2.22, but for the second bar, raise it up a few notches. All the shadow datail is controlled by that bar I have found. To be clear, when looking at the custom gamma curve, don't move the far left bar, but the one next to it. My gamma curve follows 2.22 except for that bar, which I have closer to 1.9 or 2.0 That helps keep the picture nice and saturated and punchy without the loss of shadow detail.

Since my last calibration post, I've found some negative impact to reducing the primary and secondary color saturation so much and boosting the brightness so much in the RGBCMY menu. I'll report back with my new settings soon.

The black crush is an artifact of the pictures, and is not what I actually see on my 106" screen. I believe the camera isn't sensitive enough to pic up some of the shadow detail. The room has to be completely dark to see the good shadow detail however. Any stray light will negatively impact the picture, especially with a custom display gamma of 2.22.

Regardless, with my new settings, the main color control is set to -20, and tint is -5. Brightness is still -8 I believe, and contrast is +11.

Dan

I think I have about got it. Thanks for the info. One last question I hope. On the Epson under the Image - Advanced menu there is also a RGB (not RGBCMY) menu. I was wondering if any adjustment was made there or if everything remains at zero. Thanks again.

I think I have about got it. Thanks for the info. One last question I hope. On the Epson under the Image - Advanced menu there is also a RGB (not RGBCMY) menu. I was wondering if any adjustment was made there or if everything remains at zero. Thanks again.

Those adjustments are very projector specific, but I'll be posting my updated calibration soon, and I'll include my RGB settings. The RGB is used to adjust your greyscale, keeping grey looking neutral grey.

Dan

OK thanks. Looking forward to your update. I realize they are all different but your settings have helped my picture immensely.

Edit. I find that the calibration below gives me a much better picture than my previous calibration from post #60

O.k, so I’ve spent hours and hours trying to understand the color management system of the 1080UB, and have found some very interesting things.

1) Theater Black 1 is NOT the preferred color mode for accurate colors. Natural is better. I’ll explain below.
2) The color saturation of the primary and secondary colors is not consistent from 0-100% saturation. (see saturation charts below)
3) The brightness of the primary and secondary colors is not consistent from 0-100% saturation.
4) The main color control only effects some colors at 100% saturation, but all of them at 75% saturation and below.
5) Skin tone should be set to zero, and tint at -5, color at -12. Contrast and brightness will depend on equipment setup.

Anyhow, here are the new settings:
Natural Color Mode. I’m using custom gamma. I’m using a PS3 with extended RGB and superwhite turned on, like before. The Epson is set to Superwhite off, and HDMI expanded. Low lamp mode.

http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/natural75percentmainmenu.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/natural75percentcms.jpg
Use the gains and offsets at your own risk. I have found that these vary a lot from projector to projector, and my settings may make your greys end up too red. It's best to check some grey windows to see if it looks correct with the settings below. Otherwise, start from zero and only adjust the red and blue gains and offsets until grey looks grey
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/natural75percentgainscuts.jpg
Edit In order to get the gamma below, put the gamma sliders in the positions listed below, from left to right:
0, -6, -10, -11, -12, -13, -11, -15, 0

This new calibration has a slight drawback. 100% colors are oversaturated, but still not to the level of the factory defaults. BUT, the overall color accuracy across the rest of the color gamut is GREATLY improved though. I’ll explain.
Gamut
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/75percentcolornaturalgamut.jpg
Greyscale
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/75percentcolornaturalgreyscale.jpg
Custom Gamma
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/75percentcolornaturalgamma.jpg

Here is Color Saturation in Natural Mode: See how colors have better hue?(bottom curves show hue error) This is a function of natural mode. 100% red hue is also much more accurate. Green doesn’t change much from Theater Black 1 mode. The Hue of the colors tracks much better as seen in the bottom curves, as do the saturations error.(top curve) Optimally both of these curves would be zero all the way across.
Saturation Error(top set of curves) and Hue Error(bottom set of curves)
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/75percentcolornaturalsaturation.jpg

What is interesting is that the brightness of the primaries track well up to 75% saturation, and then drop in brightness at 100% saturation. They drop anywhere from 2 to 10% in brightness, but only at 100% saturation. This is a good thing, as it help negate some of the oversaturation at 100% saturation levels. Even though the picture can be oversaturated at 100% color, the rest of the gamut is spot on.

Look at these charts. The first one shows how the measured points line up with the correct locations(marked as the + signs for each color). The first chart shows pretty good alignment at the outer points on the gamut, but look at the points in the middle of the gamut!!!:eek: This is my previous calibration from post #60. For instance, when the 75% green was being called for, the actual saturation beign displayed was around 50%! Same for cyan and yellow. No wonder things were looking washed out in some areas/scenes. Now look at the second chart after I calibrated to the 75% saturation windows. Voila!!! Awesome. Most of the gamut is spot on, except for the outer 100% points. The overall accuracy of the second chart is much better.
Adjusted to 100% saturation windows: (100% luminance)
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/gamutcalibratedto100percentsaturation.jpg
Adjusted using 75% saturation windows: (100% luminance)
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/gamut.jpg

When you use my settings from post #60, the 100% colors are great, but I had a problem. Colors everywhere else in the gamut looked washed out and grey. You can see why in the next picture below. This is Color saturation in Theater Black 1 mode from the calibrations I showed in post #60. As you can see, the 100% color gamut is great, but the 25%, 50%, and 75% saturations are very under saturated. The picture below the gamut shows the saturation of each color versus where it is supposed to be. Ideally, both sets of curves would be zero. As you can see, at 100% saturation, everything is decent, but lower saturations are VERY under saturated. The bottom curve in each picture tracks the error in Hue of each color as the saturation increases. As you can see, it varies quite a bit. Not so good.
Gamut from post #60
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/minus20colorgamut.jpg
Saturation and Hue from post #61
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/minus20colorsaturation.jpg

By the way, I checked all the other modes as well, and Natural is by far the most accurate.

So, these new settings give a picture that can sometimes be oversaturated, but much, much more pleasing to me. I prefer it better than the calibration in post #60. Try both and save each to a memory setting on the Epson and you can see which you like. If you read this entire post, you must be tired, and probably deserve a beer.

Dan

I just picked up a demo pro cinema 1080UB (the dealer threw in a brand new bulb in the deal as the one in the demo had 2000 hours on it). I am comparing it side by side with the benq w5000. I am returning the loser.

My question: Will the bulb in the unit have lost a good deal of its brightness at the 2000 hour mark? The unit seems a little dim to me in cinema night or HD mode. It is very bright in cinema day mode, but the colours are seriously over saturated and black levels are not as good.

I am just wondering if installing the new bulb will change things significantly at this point.

I just picked up a demo pro cinema 1080UB (the dealer threw in a brand new bulb in the deal as the one in the demo had 2000 hours on it). I am comparing it side by side with the benq w5000. I am returning the loser.

My question: Will the bulb in the unit have lost a good deal of its brightness at the 2000 hour mark? The unit seems a little dim to me in cinema night or HD mode. It is very bright in cinema day mode, but the colours are seriously over saturated and black levels are not as good.

I am just wondering if installing the new bulb will change things significantly at this point.

First, you will want to use Natural mode, and I suggest my latest set of calibrations for the main menu and RGBCMY menu. Natural mode is called the same mode on the home version. Set the Gamma to the 2.4 preset. In the RGB menu, you my need to add to the red gain, and reduce the red offset to get better greys.

You've probably lost 25%-40% of your brightness. I'm at about 500 hours I think, and I've lost about 15-20%. Remember, the new bulb will start to dim right away too.

On the Epson, the Brightness Control in the main menu is how you turn the lamp to high or low mode. If you can stand the extra fan noise, you should run in high mode for the brightest picture, but you're getting close to end of lamp life. Epson claims 2000 hours if you use high lamp mode, and 3000 hours for low lamp mode. If the unit was used in low lamp mode until now, you should have life left in the bulb.

Dan

Stereoman...

I started with your settings and then calibrated my colors with a disc and filters.

Here are my results.

For Theater Black 1

Brightness -9
Contrast 12
Color saturation -20
Tint -5
Skin Tone 3


R -2 -6 58

G -21 -32 64

B 24 51 36

C 4 -32 60

M -2 36 60

Y 8 6 7


For Natural (I like it BTW)

Brightness -10
Contrast 9
Color Saturation -12
Tint -5
Skin Tone 0


R 2 6 16

G -14 10 9

B 1 -13 32

C 3 -12 32

M 0 22 32

Y 4 17 -4


I don't have calibration equipment...but these results seem to work for my projector. Do they look strange?

Natural seems to add a few extra lumens too am I wrong?

First, you will want to use Natural mode, and I suggest my latest set of calibrations for the main menu and RGBCMY menu. Natural mode is called the same mode on the home version. Set the Gamma to the 2.4 preset. In the RGB menu, you my need to add to the red gain, and reduce the red offset to get better greys.

You've probably lost 25%-40% of your brightness. I'm at about 500 hours I think, and I've lost about 15-20%. Remember, the new bulb will start to dim right away too.

On the Epson, the Brightness Control in the main menu is how you turn the lamp to high or low mode. If you can stand the extra fan noise, you should run in high mode for the brightest picture, but you're getting close to end of lamp life. Epson claims 2000 hours if you use high lamp mode, and 3000 hours for low lamp mode. If the unit was used in low lamp mode until now, you should have life left in the bulb.

Dan

THanks for the write up. I'm going to try these settings on my unit. So far I've been very pleased with the factory settings, but I'm no videophile.

Question, have you been incrementally increasing brightness to compensate for the aging bulb?

Stereoman...

I started with your settings and then calibrated my colors with a disc and filters.

Here are my results.

For Theater Black 1

Brightness -9
Contrast 12
Color saturation -20
Tint -5
Skin Tone 3


R -2 -6 58

G -21 -32 64

B 24 51 36

C 4 -32 60

M -2 36 60

Y 8 6 7


For Natural (I like it BTW)

Brightness -10
Contrast 9
Color Saturation -12
Tint -5
Skin Tone 0


R 2 6 16

G -14 10 9

B 1 -13 32

C 3 -12 32

M 0 22 32

Y 4 17 -4


I don't have calibration equipment...but these results seem to work for my projector. Do they look strange?

Natural seems to add a few extra lumens too am I wrong?
Your adjustments to the Theater Black 1 mode seem fine, and if they look better to you, then go for it.

For the adjustments you made to Natural Mode, it would seem that your Green and Magenta colors would be too strong with that much added saturation. I much prefer the Natural mode calibration that I posted.

Yes, I do notice a small bump in brightness in Natural mode as well, and make sure not to use the custom gamma settings posted for the Theater Black 1 mode earlier. The gamma will be way too high, and the picture will be too dark. The 2.4 gamma preset actually tracks very well to an actual 2.13 gamma which isn't bad at all.

Dan
THanks for the write up. I'm going to try these settings on my unit. So far I've been very pleased with the factory settings, but I'm no videophile.

Question, have you been incrementally increasing brightness to compensate for the aging bulb?

Brightness has not needed to be adjusted as the bulb ages. Bulb aging has changed my greyscale adjustments a little though(RGB menu with the gains and offsets), so you may need to change those by eye. Remember, don't change green, only Blue and Red.

I do notice that the color mode changes what brightness setting I should use. For Theater Black 1 it is set to -8 and for Natural mode -10 is correct.

During my calibrations, I've also found out that setting the contrast to +11 was too high, even though according to the test pattern it was correct. It was overdriving the red color and wreaked havic on my gamma curve and greyscale adjustment. I suggest a setting of +8 all the time just to be safe, even though you loose a little brightness. It also gaurantees that you don't clip the whites. Of course, these brightness and contrast settings are unique to the PS3 with the settings I've mentioned.

Again, I much prefer the Natural mode calibration I posted. Even though the colors are sometimes oversaturated, the HUE is much improved and tracks very well. The picture is a lot less dull as well. For some, it may be too saturated, but I've been much preferring it.

Dan

Stereomandan,

What type of screen are you using?

106" Da-lite High Contrast Matte White (HCMW)

I had samples of all the popular Da-lite material and found this one to be the best comprimise of good blacks and good whites.

Dan

First, you will want to use Natural mode, and I suggest my latest set of calibrations for the main menu and RGBCMY menu. Natural mode is called the same mode on the home version. Set the Gamma to the 2.4 preset. In the RGB menu, you my need to add to the red gain, and reduce the red offset to get better greys.

You've probably lost 25%-40% of your brightness. I'm at about 500 hours I think, and I've lost about 15-20%. Remember, the new bulb will start to dim right away too.

On the Epson, the Brightness Control in the main menu is how you turn the lamp to high or low mode. If you can stand the extra fan noise, you should run in high mode for the brightest picture, but you're getting close to end of lamp life. Epson claims 2000 hours if you use high lamp mode, and 3000 hours for low lamp mode. If the unit was used in low lamp mode until now, you should have life left in the bulb.

Dan

Thanks for all that Dan. I really like your settings. I am finding that the projector in anything but 'cinema Day' or 'Vivid' is simply too dim for my 106"...even in a completely darkened room. The bright modes are plenty bright, but blacks get compromised. ANSI contrast seems low as well.

Maybe its the bulb. My problem is that I told the dealer not to order the bulb until I decide whether or not I will return it....so I won't be able to test it with a new bulb.

I also noticed a convergence problem. Red is slightly north, green slightly south. I don't really notice it from ~10 feet back...but it is there. Is there a way to adjust this in the service menu?

I wish I could evaluate one with a new bulb...because this one is getting beaten handily by the Benq W5000 I am testing against it right now (it has a new bulb). I will post some comparison shots if I get a chance.

Mike

You can't fix the convergence. Most 1080UB's will be about about 1 pixel for one or two of the colors, but it can vary depending on screen location. You will not notice it at 10 feet, but it can impact sharpness slightly.

With that old of a bulb, you are loosing a LOT of light.

You should go to www.projectorreviews.com and see what Art got for both projectors in calibrated best mode for light output. He will have the lumens rating for both.

Well, I did the homework for you:
Epson:
Best mode High lamp mode: 468 lumens
Low lamp: 374
Art considers Theater Black 1 mode "best mode", but I have found Natural to be better, and it also increases the lumens a little from the numbers above.
The brightest that Art could get the Epson was 1818 in Dynamic mode

Benq
Best mode High Lamp Mode: 472 Lumens (iris at 2)
Low Lamp mode 379 lumens
Art considers Cinema mode "best mode"
The brightest that Art could get the Benq was 1270 in Dynamic mode with Brillian Color turned on.

So with new bulbs they are almost identical in best calibrated mode, but the Epson is significantly brighter in dynamic mode. They are both excellent projectors, so just keep the one you prefer. I'm not sure the Benq has such extensive CMS (Color Management System) control though.

Dan

Thanks Dan. I posted a few comments on the BenQ thread and some samples. I thought I would do a shorter version here. BTW, the calibration controls on the BenQ are similar to the epson....very comprehensive.

Note: All photos were shot RAW with my DSLR. I set the camera on a table and used long exposures on a remote release. My goal was to compare black levels...so bright areas are overexposed as the PJ has a wider dynamic range than the camera (which I have deliberately not made any attempt to compensate to get a 'processed shot'. I set the camera so it would get at least some level from the blackest areas of the image. Both projectors have been put through a simple calibration (I did not white balance the images so ignore colour issues). The screen is a Draper luma that I painted with Behr silverscreen. The pictures are taken in a completely dark room. I used Dan's settings in 'Natural mode' with the lamp set to high on the epson. The BenQ is using cinema mode with the iris clamped at zero.

Here are some from SW ep 2. The Benq on the left, the epson on the right. I actually had both projectors going at the same time...each on a different part of the screen in a completely dark room.

http://www.luminous-moments.com/w5000-1080ub1.jpg
http://www.luminous-moments.com/w5-ep3.jpg
http://www.luminous-moments.com/w5-ep4.jpg

Here is my desktop...benQ on left, epson on right.

http://www.luminous-moments.com/w5000-1080ub2.jpg

Here is part of that image at 100%, showing the visibility of the convergence issue (not really a significant issue for me).

http://www.luminous-moments.com/conv.jpg

The interesting part of all this is that black levels on the BenQ do very well against even a dimmed 1080ub bulb. Real world contrast is no contest at all. BenQ wins that hands down. I will update this if I can get my hands on a new bulb for testing. I don't think it will help the epson for black levels (which I would put it close to par with the benq...even though the epson has a dim bulb). It might help with brightness and contrast though for the epson (although I am not convinced the ansi contrast will beat the BenQ.

A few other notes:
1. the benQ is much quieter than the epson.
2. the bright modes are brighter on the epson. Vivid mode had better contrast...still doesn't touch the BenQ...and the vivid mode has worse blacks compared to cinema. Whites, though, are almost blinding in that mode in my dark room.

Clearly this isn't fair with a 2000 hour bulb on the epson vs a brand new BenQ bulb. I will see if the dealer will order a new one and still allow a return. I hope so...I have read so many good things about this projector I want to give it a chance before I send it back.

Mike

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15607437#post15607437

For all you calibrators out there, I have created an Excel file that I hope will help you. Please see the attached link for the Excel download. It allows full charting for all color saturations on a CIE gamut chart, color saturation error, color brightness error, gamma targeting, color brightness targeting...

Please provide feedback on how I may be able to add to or improve the worksheet. Thank you.

Dan

Stereomandan,

I have used your calibration numbers (with just slight modification) that you posted back in post #60 using the theater black 1 mode. Are you now saying that the "natural" mode is actually better? You are focusing on color, but what about other aspects of the image such as black level, shadow detail, contrast, etc. Can the "natural setting" with your posted calibration numbers actually exceed the calibrated theater 1 mode? Just curious. I'm always interested in eeking out the best possible image from my 1080UB.

I found natural to work well, but only at night time. My pj is in our family room and while I make every attempt to control the lighting, some does bleed through. So during daytime, I use Cinema Day (living room) with most of the settings on default. The colors are off, but it's so much brighter that I can see far better playing video games and such.

ricwhite,

Natural mode is a better color mode in all aspects. The lumen output is a little higher in natural mode, which is a good thing. Gamma and black level are just as good as Theater Black 1. The colors are more accurate in Natural mode.

Give my settings in post #83 a try. You can always go back to the other calibration. You will notice that the colors are much more saturated, but they are more accurate in the majority of the color gamut than my calibration in post #60. You may need to tweak your gains and offsets though, versus where mine are set. They are very projector specific. Just throw up some gray screens and adjust the red and blue gain for the brighter gray pattern so that it looks gray, and the offsets for the darker gray pattern. Don't touch the green gain or offset.

Dan

Time to get this thread back on the first page ;)

I got some issues doing calibration of my 1080UB unit (TW-2000) using an i1 meter.

Have run thru a couple of calibrations now (using Curt's guide), but most of the times I end up with a very distinct red (especially when showing brightness and contrast test patterns (the flashing bars is redish) from a REC 709 HDDVD test disc).

This is using low brightness mode. Have done both with and without iris. With iris it's a pain to get it correct. Slightly easier to get it "correct" without iris.
Correct according to HCFR and the i1... but always with the redish flashing bars.

In my RGB settings I usually end up with a fair amount of Offset and Gain on the red in order to get my grayscale correct, which I would presume give me the redish flashing bars.
Typically I would expect these to be flashing greying bars.

I see that under the RGBCMY settings I also in many instances must go to the +/- extreme in order to get to the defined xy-parameters, if at all.
Typically this also involves reducing saturation. Doing this the Y goes down drastically, and I have tried to compensate with increasing brightness.

I feel a bit awkward when I reach the extremes, as it don't feel right...
Is my assumption about increasing brightness to compensate for reduced saturation correct? (Curt's guide do not say anything about it, rather he says that if the Y goes down drastically, let it be)

My initial starting point is:
6500K
low brightness
HD setting
iris off
HDMI video range extended
Epson superwhite off
Gamma 2.2

Wrt gamma it seems that I need to set it to 2.4 or custom in order to get it anywhere close to 2.22.
The best fit I get using a custom gamma.
Which lead me to another question. When is it correct to adjust gamma?
Prior to everything? After greyscale? or?

I found an Epson document online describing how to do a ISF cal. using a VP and initial settings for that.
That document had the following initial settings:
7500K
High brightness
iris off
HD setting
Epson superwhite on
Gamma 2.2

Can't explain why.

One last thing.
In curt's guide a typical value for a front PJ is ftL 12-16. I get nowhere close to that. Typically I can get up to ftL 7. Tried various positions/angles etc on the i1.
My screen is a few years old now, I think it is a whitish type with gain 1.1.
Brand might be Projecta or similar.

Any inputs are welcome.

Thanks!

Can you be more specific about which flashing bars are you talking about?

In my experience, the most accurate mode for colors is Natural (I have measured all of the color modes).

If you need to adjust the red gains and offsets a lot to get proper greyscale, then try a different color temperature. If you need to add a lot of red gain, then try moving your color temp setting to 6000, or 5500k. This will help. If you need to remove a lot of red gain, then go higher in color temp, like 7000 or higher.

Also, the skintone setting impacts the color balance for R, G and B. Lower numbers increase red, and higher numbers increase green. If you change the skintone, you will need to redo the grayscale.

You should adjust brightness and contrast first, then your gains and offsets (grayscale), and then gamma. Then go to the RGBCMY menu. After you are done with that, you can go back and double check your gamma and grayscale.

Starting with main color setting at around -12, and tint at -5 helps with the RGBCMY menu so that you don’t need to adjust the colors quite so drastically.

By the way, my red also needs a lot of adjustment. I’m at 27 gain for red, and -11 for offset. Green and Blue both only range from 0 to 2. It looks great though, and works fine. (my color temp is set to 6000, and skintone to zero)

My ft. lamberts measure very low as well, but I don't think you can rely on the HCFR data with an i1 for ft lamberts. You need a different probe.

Dan

Thanks for the feedback.

The flashing bars on the brightness/contrast test pattern are from the test disc downloaded from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

I had another go yesterday and this time it seems like I'm getting closer.
What I did differently was:
1. basic brightness/contrast based on 709 test disc
2. color/tint to get red and cyan in the ballpark
3. RGBCMY adjustment (again to get it into the ballpark)
4. RGB/greyscale
5. Readjust the above to get closer to the target values

I know I have shuffled the steps differently from most guides, but at least now my measured values are not very far off the target.

Red is good, Green is good, Blue is off by 0.030 on y, secondaries are good as well as greyscale (30-90% < 2). Gamma is off slightly (2.1).

I have a feeling that doing RGB prior to RGBCMY do mess things up a bit on my unit.
Blue is my problem color at the moment. No matter what I do there is very little change in the y-axis (can get it from 0.0090 to 0.0088, but nowhere near 0.0060)
Y is a little low on red, but fairly ok on the rest (within the ballpark from the 709 spec)

As I can't get correct red Y with the correct xy measurement, I might try to adjust it away from the correct xy coordinate, but try to adjust it such that the angles/lines from green and blue is fairly similar to 709. Would that work?

Maybe I should post my results here for you guys to have a look at.

Natural mode is the best color mode.

The blue primary can be moved much easier if you are in Natural mode. I had the same problem with blue until I went to the Natural mode.

I know it will totally change your calibration to use Natural mode, but red and blue line up much better in Natural mode to the REC709 gamut.

Dan

I did not know the iOne wasn't good for measuring light output. The ft. lamberts measured only around 7 for me as well with ~350 hrs on my bulb on a Hi Power screen. I never understood this because the screen lights up my room and can cause me to wince when a movie goes from a very dark scene to an outdoor scene.

Dan,
Could you put all of your best (most recent) settings into one post? I'd like to give them a try but keep getting confused on where you are starting from. Thanks!

Note: The picture below are only blurry because I took these without a flash, and I couldn't keep my hand steady enough.

My bulb has 777 hours on it.

Here are my latest settings:
Gamma:
Put the gamma sliders in the positions listed below, from left to right:
0, -6, -10, -11, -12, -13, -11, -15, 0
Main menu:
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/mainmenu3-19-09.jpg
RGBCMY:
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/rgbcmymenu3-19-09.jpg
The settings below(RGB) vary a LOT from projector to projector, so take these at your own risk.
RGB:
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/rgbmenu3-19-09.jpg

Dan

There you go. My latest calibration is above.

Dan

Natural mode is the best color mode.

The blue primary can be moved much easier if you are in Natural mode. I had the same problem with blue until I went to the Natural mode.

I know it will totally change your calibration to use Natural mode, but red and blue line up much better in Natural mode to the REC709 gamut.

Dan

Thank you!
Indeed the Natural mode expanded the color gamut to envelope all three primary colors.
Getting them to their correct positions was another matter though... gave up after a few trials. Your idea is still a viable one, and I will probably get back to it later.
Did some more adjustment on the HD mode, but still not there.

I did not know the iOne wasn't good for measuring light output. The ft. lamberts measured only around 7 for me as well with ~350 hrs on my bulb on a Hi Power screen. I never understood this because the screen lights up my room and can cause me to wince when a movie goes from a very dark scene to an outdoor scene.


Same here. Get around 7 ftL from a good setup of the probe.
Around 800h on the bulb.

Here are my latest settings:
Gamma:
Put the gamma sliders in the positions listed below, from left to right:
0, -6, -10, -11, -12, -13, -11, -15, 0

RGB:
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/rgbmenu3-19-09.jpg

Dan

Good feedback, thanks!

I need to check these out and see if they indeed could work on my unit.

You have a lot of red gain. How is the flashing bars from the contrast pattern (on the 709 disc I mentioned)? (or any other light gray boxed/bars on a white background)

On my unit I tried to reduce green and blue (to avoid too much increase in red offset and gain). That worked fine on the greyscale, but on the expence of the luminance.

A tricky quest for perfection ;)

You can keep using HD mode, but it is not the optimal mode. Blue and Red primary hue do not track well with changes in saturation with HD mode. They track very well in Natural mode.

All my flashing bars are neutral shade of grey. I have found that if you set the main contrast too high, the greyscale will become nonlinear at high APL's. My picture would track grey very well up to 90% grey, but then get too red at 100% and I couldn't fix it. When I bumped by contrast from 11 to 7, my greyscale improved significantly, and my gamma also improved. ( I use a PS3, so your contrast settings may be different)

As you can see, I needed to reduce my green gain by three points since my red gain was maxed out. Is does sacrifice some lumens, but I'm o.k. with that. Normally I say not to touch green gain and offset, but in this situation I had to. Here is my greyscale tracking with the settings above.
http://www.geocities.com/stereomandan/projector/75percentcolornaturalgreyscale.jpg

Dan

Thanks.

You are a source of good information :)

I understand your advices and what you want me to do. I will see if I can find time later tonight and check.

My sources are a LG BH-200 (with a HD-DVD version of the 709 disc), as well as a VP50Pro with built-in test patterns. Although the latter uses 100% fields for pri/sec colors the changes are minimal wrt the 100% window patterns on the 709 disc.
In any case, when using the VP50 directly I eliminate any changes/errors the BH-200 or Amplifier might introduce.

Alright. Had a long night the other day, and one tonight ;)
Tried stereomandan settings: Some of them I discarded, some I used.

Attached are my results so far.
The position of the primaries are still somewhat a bit off. I managed to get blue right, and had to interpolate red and green such that the CIE triangle now is correct B->G and B->R. Adjusting while looking at the CIE diagram was a big help ;)
Calculated the luminace for G, R and Yellow based on their coordinate using a Gamut Calculator.

Gamma is still a bit off, and I might look into that (Red is a bit high)
I want to enable Iris and from a measurement the iris messed with a lot of things (luminance of primary and secondary colors ++) so I might just go from here and adjust settings with Iris enabled.

Comments?

Global settings:
Auto Iris: Off
Epson Superwhite: Off
HDMI Video Range : Extended
Brightness : Low
Color Mode : Natural
Skin Tone : 0
Color Temp : 6000K
Gamma: Custom
Brightness -7
Contrast 11
Color Sat. -2
Tint -7

Here's the complete HCFR file.

to those calibrating are any of you using or have you used the gretagmacbeth eye-one UVcut?