The question is for those new to this site that really question both formats or the users who are still up in the air on which format to purchase. (do not own any HiDef players)

Share with us your opinion on what you look forward into your future purchase of HD.

price

I have purchased some BDs but no player yet because of price.
Babel, Italian Job, All 3 Pirates, Cars, Ratatouille.
Gonna buy The Rock this week.

I have purchased some BDs but no player yet because of price.
Babel, Italian Job, All 3 Pirates, Cars, Ratatouille.
Gonna buy The Rock this week.

Interesting... stocking up now, so when the prices of BD players drop one day you will be set? I should have done that. :o

Interesting... stocking up now, so when the prices of BD players drop one day you will be set? I should have done that. :o

Yup. Only jumping on awesome BD deals at the moment. As soon as the price is right for a player, SOLD!
The Rock is $12.13 with Google checkout at buy daht com

Neither format will play in existing players.

With multiple dvd players in the house and a portable dvd player for the car, I'm going to start purchasing media that doesn't play in those devices? Or, I'm going to replace all those devices with HD players, even though I have only 1 HD capable display in the house?

Don't think so.

SD-DVD to HDM is an evolution, not revolution. So backwards compatibility, to me, should have been a given. Like hybrid sacd's.

It's nice to watch a movie on a big screen, but also nice to be able to watch a flick on your laptop or portable player when you're on the road. And you don't need HD for small displays.

It's nice to watch a movie on a big screen, but also nice to be able to watch a flick on your laptop or portable player when you're on the road. And you don't need HD for small displays.

I have a portable DVD player which I never use. I hate watching movies on small displays so I just wait till I get home (I don't watch movies on planes either).

I havent bought a Blu-Ray player because of cost. Not worth the money they want.

Neither format will play in existing players.

With multiple dvd players in the house and a portable dvd player for the car, I'm going to start purchasing media that doesn't play in those devices? Or, I'm going to replace all those devices with HD players, even though I have only 1 HD capable display in the house?

Don't think so.

SD-DVD to HDM is an evolution, not revolution. So backwards compatibility, to me, should have been a given. Like hybrid sacd's.

It's nice to watch a movie on a big screen, but also nice to be able to watch a flick on your laptop or portable player when you're on the road. And you don't need HD for small displays.

HD DVD combo discs will play in existing DVD players.

seems ppl who dont own HDM players yet all want blu-ray players but are waiting for price to drop. what would be a "worth it" price for a 1.1 player that can decode truehd in surround (not only 2ch) and bitstream all audio?

i hope ppl are expecting toshiba hd dvd player prices, there's a reason why they were the only ppl manufacturing hd dvd players which turned some ppl off to the format.

HD DVD combo discs will play in existing DVD players.

at this point i dont think anyone's lookin for hd dvd players who doesnt own one already. there's simply not enough content to be had on hd dvd.

Thank you David. You expressed my feelings much more succinctly than I could have.

Although I enjoy high definition, the extra value over DVD is just not worth the money to me at these player prices and disc prices. My family enjoys DVDs because we can play them in almost all rooms of the house, take them in the car, take them to Grandma's house (to keep the kids from dying of boredom), etc. To me HDM has made a big mistake trying to "beat" or replace DVD rather than integrate with it.

I have a portable DVD player which I never use. I hate watching movies on small displays so I just wait till I get home (I don't watch movies on planes either).

You must not have kids. Two or three movies during a 4 hr trip to the ski condo or cabin helps pass the time for the kids or me if the wife is kind enough to drive:). I have/will have to double dip the SD versions on a couple of movies I purchased on BD just for this reason. I would be very happy if BD could invent a hybrid disc since compression artifacts are simply not noticable on a 9" screen in the vehicle.

at this point i dont think anyone's lookin for hd dvd players who doesnt own one already. there's simply not enough content to be had on hd dvd.

And there is enough content on Blu-Ray? there's only about 10% more titles available on Blu-Ray.

"HD DVD 381 vs Blu-ray 427*

* Blu-ray total does not reflect 32 Paramount titles that were previously available."

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/28/hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-releases-on-january-29th-2008/

I wonder if atleast 75% of the consumers think like the users in this thread? If that is the case then HDM will take a really long time to creep into people's homes.

I wonder if atleast 75% of the consumers think like the users in this thread? If that is the case then HDM will take a really long time to creep into people's homes.

Not if BD would come up with some final profile affordable players.

And there is enough content on Blu-Ray? there's only about 10% more titles available on Blu-Ray.

"HD DVD 381 vs Blu-ray 427*

* Blu-ray total does not reflect 32 Paramount titles that were previously available."

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/28/hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-releases-on-january-29th-2008/

obviously it's not about current content, but what's upcoming. with only 2 studios the current numbers will change.

And there is enough content on Blu-Ray? there's only about 10% more titles available on Blu-Ray.

"HD DVD 381 vs Blu-ray 427*

* Blu-ray total does not reflect 32 Paramount titles that were previously available."

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/28/hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-releases-on-january-29th-2008/

FF 1 year. It's not about yesterday.;)

Both the discs and the players are still too pricey for me. But primarily I use an HTPC for all my media playback and the existing PC solutions still seem to be shakey and require an HDMI connection which neither my PC or projector have.

Plus I am not certain I want BD+ running on my PC. Once there is a version of @nydvd that handles BD+ properly I may buy a BD drive if I find a good deal and just rip all my discs to hard drive. But I'm still waiting on that one.

- Tom

Both the discs and the players are still too pricey for me. But primarily I use an HTPC for all my media playback and the existing PC solutions still seem to be shakey and require an HDMI connection which neither my PC or projector have.

Plus I am not certain I want BD+ running on my PC. Once there is a version of @nydvd that handles BD+ properly I may buy a BD drive if I find a good deal and just rip all my discs to hard drive. But I'm still waiting on that one.

- Tom

think you'd be missing out on lossless audio with a pc solution.

I haven't bought in because of the expense involved.

To do things right I would need the following:
HD Display
HD Media Player
Audio Receiver
Speakers

While I find the technology interesting and would like to take advantage of seeing movies in better quality, I can't justify spending the money. Especially considering the limited selection of films available. It just doesn't make financial sense for my family.

You must not have kids. Two or three movies during a 4 hr trip to the ski condo or cabin helps pass the time for the kids or me if the wife is kind enough to drive:). I have/will have to double dip the SD versions on a couple of movies I purchased on BD just for this reason. I would be very happy if BD could invent a hybrid disc since compression artifacts are simply not noticable on a 9" screen in the vehicle.

Its true, I don't have kids (or a ski condo). If I did, I would probably just buy a PSP and transfer video from my TivoHD to it.

The question is for those new to this site that really question both formats or the users who are still up in the air on which format to purchase. (do not own any HiDef players)

Share with us your opinion on what you look forward into your future purchase of HD.

Limited title selection. Very weak catalog.

I'm indifferent to audio.

I have a small screen and small viewing area; very unlikely I'll ever have anything else.

Lack of easy ripability and reluctance to put up with DRM issues.

I look forward to getting HDM in the future, it's just not urgent.

-Bill

Pretty much in the same boat as wmcclain, most of the movies I buy are kids movies that get copied before they get played so if something happens to them I wont have to re-buy them. The cost of blank blu-ray disks is prohibitive and I am not spending $1000 on two players and then replacing all the movies I have already purchased. Then there is the profile mess, all the extras and games on disney movies that would be most likely not play till the spec is complete. And then we get to the DRM, I will kick back and see what they do with BD+ and the HDCP. I don't want to have to buy a new copy for every TV and player I own.

Blu Ray has to finalize their products and drop prices dramatically before I will get one. Since neither are probably going to happen for quite a while, I will hold off and see what the next year brings. I love movies too much to wait forever, but a year I can do. I have enough to keep me happy for now and another option may prove the better choice later on.

I have a 720p 42" LG in the bedroom and a 720p 50" Sony in the HT. Both are connected to upconverting SD DVD players via HDMI.

While that is hardly "HD", it compares with demonstrations I've seen of HD DVD and Blu-Ray connected to 1080p's of similar size, viewed from similar distances.

When I am ready to replace the displays, when the prices of the players come down, and when the cost of the software is more reasonable and the catalogs are bigger, then I'll buy.

Very simple answer.

I don't have a high-def display yet. Right about the time I was seriously looking at 720p, 1080p finally dropped below 3k on the budget end and everything else followed, making me decide to wait a little longer and get 1080p.

C

I don't like that current Stand alone BD players are incomplete, I don't like how they ripped BC out of the PS3, and all of the BD players are still too expensive to justify buying when it has yet to be seen if they can move beyond a niche market.

Waiting for a complete dual format player w/o issues

Lack of the kind of movies I'm interested in.
Can't rip.
Transfers to HD need to mature and take advantage of either spec's possibilities. Barely even scratching the surface of exisiting features.
Neither "Wows" me anymore on 42" display.
Players need to mature. Too big & slow. Fuller implementation of features.
To take full advantage of either, I'd really want to upgrade a number of other components - receiver, projector, cabling, etc.
Want one format. Don't want to buy and configure 2 players for every location I have a SD player now.
Upconverted SD DVD's are pretty darn good, although I wish the Reon was in more SD players.

I wonder if atleast 75% of the consumers think like the users in this thread? If that is the case then HDM will take a really long time to creep into people's homes.

I think it's more like 95% of consumers. This is why I thought combo disks (HD-DVD) were the only choice for the average consumer.

Waiting for a complete dual format player w/o issues

for under $250:D! w reon chip!
$300 w realta chip!
$350 w toshiba sparsengine cell processor chipset!!

It'll take a couple of years before Blu-ray standalone players are ready for prime time. HD DVD is there today, so enjoy HD DVD. :)

FF 1 year. It's not about yesterday.;)

Rewind 1 year. Paramount was still neutral.

Today Paramount is HD DVD exclusive.

You've got no guarantees about which studios will be supplying either/both formats a year from now.

obviously it's not about current content, but what's upcoming. with only 2 studios the current numbers will change.

Those two studios have thousands of titles.

obviously it's not about current content, but what's upcoming. with only 2 studios the current numbers will change.

Actually it is about current content -- both formats have poor selections today. Since DVD is compelling now, people don't want to spend the money to upgrade to HDM.

Although I enjoy high definition, the extra value over DVD is just not worth the money to me at these player prices and disc prices. My family enjoys DVDs because we can play them in almost all rooms of the house, take them in the car, take them to Grandma's house (to keep the kids from dying of boredom), etc. To me HDM has made a big mistake trying to "beat" or replace DVD rather than integrate with it.You Sir, represent a large portion of the US consumer base.

I think a lot of in here us forget that we are a small and rabid minority right now, and that our fascination with Blu or Red may never fully transfer to the larger buying public......

Time will tell.

I find it interesting how many here have not jumped into the HDM pool. I understand the point about movies that will play on any player but I don't understand those who have HD TV's and thousands invested in a HT rig but refuse to buy a $150 or $300 HDM player. With the 5-10 free movie deals, BOGO's and more and more price drops on the players it seems like an easy choice. As far as kids I would buy some titles on BD (if I liked them too) and some on SD-DVD for the road trips and other rooms but any non-kid movies would be HDM.

I guess it all boils down to lifestyle. For me personally I'm supper happy that I spent the $$ to be purple and I have never enjoyed movies at home so much.

Both the discs and the players are still too pricey for me. But primarily I use an HTPC for all my media playback and the existing PC solutions still seem to be shakey and require an HDMI connection which neither my PC or projector have.

Plus I am not certain I want BD+ running on my PC. Once there is a version of @nydvd that handles BD+ properly I may buy a BD drive if I find a good deal and just rip all my discs to hard drive. But I'm still waiting on that one.

- Tom

+1

Once prices come down, and there is a single format, I will be onboard.

I disagree with those who believe HDM will remain a niche market. DVD didn't overtake VHS until prices were lower. The same will be true for HDM when 95% of households have HDTV's and access to HD programming. Then the difference will be noticable enough to want to upgrade. Price is the key.

It doesn't make sense to me that in 10 years most people will still be watching SD on their HD displays. :rolleyes:

To those who disagree, have you seen the shift to HD downloads on the internet in the past year? Widescreen monitors, and fast processors on most PC's, drove the interest.

I still remember coworkers, in 1997, telling me there wasn't much of difference in the picture between DVD and VHS on their 27 inch TV. Most said they wouldn't buy into DVD until they could record as well. Once prices came down they all bought DVD players.

All WWE wrestling programming went HD last week. They plan to release on HDM as well. Is that J6P enough? :)

Art

I won't buy a BD player until there is a brand name Profile 2.0 player for sale at the magic $199 price point. Even then, I'd have to stop and check the winds of change to see if HDM (of any kind) had gotten enough market penetration to survive (I don't happen to think that is a "given").

I too felt like the combo disc was THE key advantage for HD DVD, as it would have allowed me to migrate my buying patterns to HD DVD without immediately needing to re-buy all of my players (PC drives, bedroom DVD player, guest room DVD player, car DVD player, living room DVD player, home theatre DVD player, etc.). Since BD has no such solution available, I will likely wait longer and transition more slowly (as in: hmmm, I've only got the one BD player, where do I think I'll be most likely to watch this disc?). Toshiba and the studios either: a) couldn't get the combo disc thing to work economically, or b) were/are INCREDIBLY STUPID for not having published exclusively on combo discs. Just my two cents. As with all things, YMMV.

I just picked up my A3 last week. I really like it, but I am waiting for the inevitability of HD download services to become mainstream.

Netflix putting out SD material at 2200Mbits. They could in theory do 720 at 6000Mbits. It think it is just a matter of time.

My comcast already offers HD on demand. Verizon is pushing it as well with Fios.

Even though I like my A3, I am kinda hoping that both groups lose out to online media to spite both of them for putting the consumer into this situation again. Too many people remember the Beta / VHS wars.

This technology should have released in one format... now it is too late for either I think

I too felt like the combo disc was THE key advantage for HD DVD, as it would have allowed me to migrate my buying patterns to HD DVD without immediately needing to re-buy all of my players (PC drives, bedroom DVD player, guest room DVD player, car DVD player, living room DVD player, home theatre DVD player, etc.). Since BD has no such solution available, I will likely wait longer and transition more slowly (as in: hmmm, I've only got the one BD player, where do I think I'll be most likely to watch this disc?). Toshiba and the studios either: a) couldn't get the combo disc thing to work economically, or b) were/are INCREDIBLY STUPID for not having published exclusively on combo discs. Just my two cents. As with all things, YMMV.

Maybe a bit of both...

+1

Once prices come down, and there is a single format, I will be onboard.

I disagree with those who believe HDM will remain a niche market. DVD didn't overtake VHS until prices were lower. The same will be true for HDM when 95% of households have HDTV's and access to HD programming. Then the difference will be noticable enough to want to upgrade. Price is the key.

It doesn't make sense to me that in 10 years most people will still be watching SD on their HD displays. :rolleyes:

To those who disagree, have you seen the shift to HD downloads on the internet in the past year? Widescreen monitors, and fast processors on most PC's, drove the interest.

I still remember coworkers, in 1997, telling me there wasn't much of difference in the picture between DVD and VHS on their 27 inch TV. Most said they wouldn't buy into DVD until they could record as well. Once prices came down they all bought DVD players.

All WWE wrestling programming went HD last week. They plan to release on HDM as well. Is that J6P enough? :)

Art

I disagree that it is a matter of time for hdm physical media. I think the real competition is not the format but from the upcoming onlslaught of HD online. And by online, I mean service like netflix, comcast, verizon.

Why did people buy DVDs

They were told that this was the format of the future... and many people expected it to last much longer

They did not degrade like VHS

BUYING was better then. Renting at blockbuster was much more expensive in terms of charges and late fees... it was easier to just buy it. The competition from on demand was either non existent or to cost with a "24 hour" window of viewing - remember what that did to the divx disk experiment.

.....

How many times a year will you watch (Insert favorite BD title here)? For me, once I have seen how a movie like Pirates looks on BD on my main TV, I dont even want to watch it on a computer or portable dvd player. That is like getting a porshce and driving it on bumpy dirt roads. What is the point? Buy into Hi Def, enjoy the new movies you buy on your player on your main TV and worry about upgrading the rest later.

People don't have to replace every player and every disc in their houses tomorrow. All of your existing SDs will still play on your new player.

... but I don't understand those who have HD TV's and thousands invested in a HT rig but refuse to buy a $150 or $300 HDM player.

Show me a final profile BD player at those prices and I will buy it today. Till then I will wait and enjoy my HD DVD.

I am still waiting for Blu-ray to be released!

The players are not complete yet so I will stick with HD-DVD since I can count on them!

So when they come out with a finished player maybe then I will buy!

It'll take a couple of years before Blu-ray standalone players are ready for prime time. HD DVD is there today, so enjoy HD DVD. :)

+1

technology hasn't matured
prices are too steep

I might buy a PS3 if the price drops, but I'd prefer a dedicated player.

Although I have already had a 52" 1080p LCD TV, I do not have either BR or
HD-DVD yet. After I saw some demo in a Sony store, I was not impressed
with the picture quality improvement. I do not feel they worth more than $100
for either format. I could wait for years until BR go down to this price. I tried
to get HD-DVD player for $100 twice (one was Walmart's last Nov deal and
the other was CircuitCity's last weekend's clearance), but they were sold out
quickly. Currently, I will just watch upconverted DVD.

I wonder if atleast 75% of the consumers think like the users in this thread?

What, whiners savoring their sour grapes? ;)

Doubtful.

C

Although I have already had a 52" 1080p LCD TV, I do not have either BR or
HD-DVD yet. After I saw some demo in a Sony store, I was not impressed
with the picture quality improvement. I do not feel they worth more than $100
for either format. I could wait for years until BR go down to this price. I tried
to get HD-DVD player for $100 twice (one was Walmart's last Nov deal and
the other was CircuitCity's last weekend's clearance), but they were sold out
quickly. Currently, I will just watch upconverted DVD.

And there is the kicker.

I think consumers are in a "only if it's free" mentality. i.e. They want the player at near give-away prices (either bundled in a console at no charge or for under $99) and they expect the prices of movies to be the same as day & date DVD prices are (20$).

I don't blame them.

Movie sales are declining. If the studios replace DVD with HD for the same price, sales will likely increase again and they can expect to maintain the fortunes seen a few years ago for a few more years.

With the Bluray answer, I just don't think it's going to ever go anywhere. They are all striving to create a lucrative market again -- high priced discs -- high priced players... but nobody wants it. There is no frenzy.

Over the holidays I watched hundreds of people line up for iPhones... hundreds of people line up for iPods.... hundreds of people line up for Wii's...

I NEVER once saw hundreds of people line up for Blu-ray players. It's not the price. A iPhone is about the same as a Blu-ray player. It's the demand.

Nobody wants it unless its free.

You guys have me convinced. HDM will be niche indefinately. I just hope that doesn't mean prices will stay sky high (but fear it will).

I have a 110" screen with 7.2 sound. It isn't much around here but I don't know anyone anywhere around here that has a better set up. On some titles I cannot see much of a difference between a SD and BD/HD. To suggest that everyone should go out and buy this buggy tech that costs considerably more is quite optimistic.

I'm also surprised to hear so many people pining for combo/twin disks. In other areas I visit they are among the most hated inventions ever.

I think it is likely that both formats came out prematurely. If HD had a twin format that wasn't buggy I think that would have gone a LONG ways to bridging the divide. Blu, well they just have a long ways to go. (Not sour grapes. I went Blu a few weeks ago and am more skeptical now than I was then).

I am waiting on Toshiba to make BR player;)


DJoel

No Blu-Ray yet because of price. I got a HD-DVD player for $100. I'm willing to pay $150 for a Blu-Ray player. I'm aware that may be awhile, that's fine. When Sony wants to attract more buyers with low prices, then I'll be on board. My HD-DVD player does everything I need right now anyhow, unconverts DVDs and happens to play HD-DVDs. Another smaller factor is the stupid profile issue.

I'm also buying blu-ray titles, but no player yet. In my case, it's just because I currently have an EDTV plasma. As soon as I get an HDTV set (this spring), I'll be getting a blu-ray player too. No brainer.

Simply it's cost.

However, I did purchase the HD DVD ad on for the 360. It came with 5 free movies plus king kong and futureshop had a promotion at the time that included Transformers. The remote is handy too when using the xbox has an extender. This was a cheap way to try hi def for me.

SD dvd's look great upconverted and I still get great satisfaction watching them. Paying more than 200 to get hi def is simply not worth the upgrade for me and probably not for the average consumer either. If i find a need to go to a stand alone player and Blu Ray is the dominant/ or only player available I will wait for the prices to drop even if it takes a couple more years.

Until then I will enjoy what I have.

Because of the lack of content, the nonsensical format war (it's amazing to watch how two irrelevant video formats are killing each other), and because I think the PQ improvement over SD-DVD is incremental, not revolutionary.

Wake me up when there is one format and when classic movies are being converted to it.

Until then, snoooore.

I don't quite get the "waiting for the prices to come down" reasoning. If players were $2000, then I could understand. But they're not.

If you can afford an HDTV that's big enough to show the value of HD content, then surely you can afford $300-400 for a player?

Because my DVD player is still working. I'll replace it with a BR player, but it will have to die first ! ;)

I'm not in a hurry, still no HD display, as long as my current display (a SD CRT) is satisfactorily functioning i have no reason to replace it.

No Blu-Ray yet because of price. I got a HD-DVD player for $100. I'm willing to pay $150 for a Blu-Ray player. I'm aware that may be awhile, that's fine. When Sony wants to attract more buyers with low prices, then I'll be on board. My HD-DVD player does everything I need right now anyhow, unconverts DVDs and happens to play HD-DVDs. Another smaller factor is the stupid profile issue.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Profile not a huge issue for me either. Price needs to come down to around $100-$150 for a brand name player.

Waiting for the magic price of $299.00 for the 40g PS3.

James :)

price

+1million (or so).

I sure wish those "crusaders" that already have hidef players would let us agnostics have just this one thread where we aren't subjected to their sales pitch - please?

Stay on topic please. From the majority of the posts cost seems to the fact, then content and last is because everyone is happy with SD movies. Quite interesting if you ask me since this "war" will hopefully only reduce prices and encourge studios to dig up their best content?

I have already....

I'm just waiting for the to be delivered.

Seggers.

+1million (or so).

I think Sony STILL proves to us they have no confidence in Bluray or else they would sell the Bluray portion of the PS3 as a stand alone for $299 or less.

Every day, I see a new media outlet spinning the NPD numbers once again, (even though the NPD came out and pointed out they were counting free BD players as sales and NOT counting the amazon.com sales where HD DVD has been booming since the 13th) Bluray has won, Bluray has won, resistence is futile, bla bla bla bla....... yet STILL no standalone BD player based on the PS3 from Sony. Whats wrong Sony....you scared of the dead format?

I don't want a PS3 but I want the BD player inside of it. Why won't Sony sell it on its own? Oh yeah thats right.....despite what they keep telling us, they know it won't sell on its own so they force it on the gamers to buy and pretend that the market place actually prefers it.

When I see a 2.0 player for under $200 I'll grab it.

Plus, I will only buy version 2.0 50GB discs. They have waaay too many mpeg-2 25GB releases right now and you can bet after every profile "upgrade" they will try to get us to double and triple dip for movies.

I don't quite get the "waiting for the prices to come down" reasoning. If players were $2000, then I could understand. But they're not.

If you can afford an HDTV that's big enough to show the value of HD content, then surely you can afford $300-400 for a player?

I'd guess the reason for many is that there is no format that offers movies from all studios. If either or both formats offered all movies and full-featured players were at your price of $300-400, many more would likely jump in. Get that player under $200, and I think you gain a whole lot of interest.

In the past 5 months, 2 major neutral studios have gone exclusive to different sides. What do you think the only-vaguely-interested bystander thinks of this?

My vision is excellent and I can discern the difference. It's just that this incremental improvement is not that important or relevant. I've seen several properly setup HD displays featuring both 'formats'. But my SD DVD player on my 27" CRT looks superb for any movie. I've got a nice little collection (~200). If the powers-that-be want to improve technology and keep the prices consistent with what I'm paying now, then yeah I'll seriously consider it in a couple of years or so..., maybe. But I don't see any good reason to right now.

For VHS to DVD, it was an easy and enthusiastic decision for me: No more rewinding, scene hopping and other features at the press of a button, better storage space physically, would stay in mint condition (which mine are) if taken care of (which mine are) no matter how many times I play them, better picture quality on the standard TV I already owned as well as my laptop.

For 'SD' to 'HD': Better picture quality,... ummmm ,... DRM? I guess better audio (my hearing is also excellent and .mp3's are wonderful for me) if you've decided to spend the extra load of money on the right setup.

Not worth it really. Atleast I could care less right now, especially relative to how much I cared when moving from VHS (Personally I think this whole HD thing is very different, more like moving from VHS to VHS+ or something along those lines). I also get the sense that nobody, corporations or studios, or even retailers, are all that committed to really making BR/HDDVD successful. Just a gut feeling on that, can't quite put a finger on why.

Anyway, back to lurking....

Not worth it really. Atleast I could care less right now, especially relative to how much I cared when moving from VHS (Personally I think this whole HD thing is very different, more like moving from VHS to VHS+ or something along those lines).

I have a PS3 but I agree completely with your assessment. In six months I've watched all the blu-rays that I cared to see and it seems like the new releases are very slow in coming. So I'm back to DVD, and honestly I'm fine with it, even on a 58" plasma screen.

VHS to VHS-Hi-Fi was a stunning upgrade. VHS Hi-Fi to DVD was a stunning upgrade. Getting a widescreen flat panel display was a stunning upgrade and it was like seeing my DVDs for the first time.

DVD to BD is nice, but not the stunning upgrade the above transitions were. I personally don't think that BD will make the smallest dent in DVD until the disc prices come down. Unless this happens soon, BD may find the window of opportunity lost to downloads and video-on-demand services.

I know many here will argue that the $30-$35 prices are in-line, but the mainstream will never buy in at these prices and the clock is ticking...

I'll be honest about why I am not buying into Blu-ray.

HD DVD had most everything going for it, especially the low price and great value compared to the alternative--it was the logical successor to DVD. And yet, on several occasions they had the opportunity to finish Blu-ray and for whatever reason, only God knows why, they never capitalized on all their advantages to quickly end the format war in favor of the more consumer friendly format.

I am bitter that the overpriced and incomplete format appears to be winning, especially after buying into the other format that should have easily won this long ago. My HD DVDs still work, but I still consider it somewhat of a sunk cost, and a mistake.

I'm not making that mistake again. I will not be buying any Blu-ray player for some time. It will have to be the final profile and definitely under $200 before I would even consider it at this point.

Yes, I'm bitter. I'll continue renting HD DVDs and downloading for the foreseeable future. Maybe a cheap BD player this Christmas '08 or more likely Christmas '09 will give me the incentive to jump back into HDM.

:(

My vision is excellent and I can discern the difference. It's just that this incremental improvement is not that important or relevant. I've seen several properly setup HD displays featuring both 'formats'. But my SD DVD player on my 27" CRT looks superb for any movie. I've got a nice little collection (~200). If the powers-that-be want to improve technology and keep the prices consistent with what I'm paying now, then yeah I'll seriously consider it in a couple of years or so..., maybe. But I don't see any good reason to right now.

For VHS to DVD, it was an easy and enthusiastic decision for me: No more rewinding, scene hopping and other features at the press of a button, better storage space physically, would stay in mint condition (which mine are) if taken care of (which mine are) no matter how many times I play them, better picture quality on the standard TV I already owned as well as my laptop.

For 'SD' to 'HD': Better picture quality,... ummmm ,... DRM? I guess better audio (my hearing is also excellent and .mp3's are wonderful for me) if you've decided to spend the extra load of money on the right setup.

Not worth it really. Atleast I could care less right now, especially relative to how much I cared when moving from VHS (Personally I think this whole HD thing is very different, more like moving from VHS to VHS+ or something along those lines). I also get the sense that nobody, corporations or studios, or even retailers, are all that committed to really making BR/HDDVD successful. Just a gut feeling on that, can't quite put a finger on why.

Anyway, back to lurking....

Actually, a pretty darned good first post! Welcome :)

I hadn't thought of the the VHS to Super VHS, but the more I think of it there is something in that---the idea of an incremental increase in PQ.

Over the years, I've spent thousands on this audio/video hobby. I even had one of the first projection sets (Advent Videobeam). I did the progression from VHS to Super VHS, to Laserdisc to DVD and in that evolution, there were incremental increases in PQ. The major benefits going from tape to LD have been stated before.

From LD to DVD gained the additional benefit of less or no flipping of discs, plus they were smaller. So, from that standpoint, there was indeed another "value added".

As I said in an earlier post, I know I will eventually invest in whatever HD format is the available dominant one when I am ready to replace my current displays. But even without an "upconverting" DVD player, the scaler and deinterlacers in both my TVs do a pretty good job with a 480i source for the present.

For years, our friends have considered me (not my wife) on the "lunatic fringe" of audio/video because of the amount equipment we have and the perceived value of it. Lately, they have been buying flat screen TVs. Why? Because old sets are wearing out. Of the people who have bought new sets, only 1 has actually subscribed to any HD source. For the rest, watching stretched 4:3, be it TV or DVD is "good enough".

They seem to only know about a "format war" in HDM only from me, and are totally uninterested in even discussing the subject.

Not enough content yet. It seems here a lot of people have more movies in their collection than I even like. So being more picky about them, I need more titles released to make the whole thing worthwhile. Also, time of year. If warner had happened before christmas, I might have jumped in then. I end up spending a lot of impulse money on myself as i'm wandering around the stores looking for gifts. I'm not in much of a shopping mood for the rest of winter.

waiting for panasonic to release the bd50 that was shown at ces.

Improvement in Picture Quality and Audio Quality? Yes.
Worth replacing your existing 5 or so SD DVD players or double dipping on HD and SD releases to ensure you can play everywhere? Extremely subjective.

Outside of early adopters, video/audiophiles and gamers, HD discs haven't yet proven that they offer a true value to the mass market consumer that outweighs the flexibility they currently have on DVD, and I'm afraid that while we're impressed with the jump in PQ/AQ, for many that just may not be enough. Especially with upconverters out there.

Not to mention the fact that a good case can probably be made that the reason HD discs have sold at all so far is because of the energy surrounding the format war (wanting to buy discs to support the format of your choice, taking advantage of BoGos and sales). If the format war actually ends, a lot of that energy will go with it.

Legacy support of DVD in the actual HD discs (not just the players) AND mass market attractive prices will be needed to start to transition to HD disc.

If you force consumers to abandon DVD to embrace HD disc, many are likely to just stick with DVD. After all, we still have some way to go before a strong majority of Americans have HD sets in the home, let alone multiple HD sets.

And God only knows how many of the consumers that already have HD sets actually understand they need HD sources to actually receive HD.

Just my .02

waiting for panasonic to release the bd50 that was shown at ces.

Looks like a nice player. I have the 30 and it pretty much performed flawlessly. I had a hiccup or two on "sunshine".

I would really like one of the Denon players, but I am not going to ugrade for quite some time.....(I also have two PS3's).

Since everyone else seems to be talking about cost, I'll chime in with my slightly different point of view.

I don't care a whole lot about cost (within reason). I do prefer HD movies over upscaled DVD, so I want an HD disc player. But I've had neither the patience nor the motivation to deal with it in the face of the format war. I don't want to buy into a format that isn't supported by all of the major studios. I don't want to have to buy into another format in a year if I pick the wrong one. I don't want to have to pay a premium for a mediocre player to get one that plays both formats. I don't want to have multiple disc players in my setup (mostly for space and complexity reasons -- I like to keep things simple and "just working"). Moreover, I don't want to have to do hours (or days or months) of research just to figure out what format to buy then only to have to do the same thing to choose a player.

If there had been a single format from the get-go, I probably would have bought in a long time ago, even if the players were $1000 or more. As it is now, it looks like BD is on track to become the winner, but I'm not going to pull the trigger until the remaining studios switch over. And I've waited long enough now that I figure a few more months waiting for a reasonable selection of profile 2.0 players won't kill me, so I'll probably hold out for that too.

Honestly, this reflects a bigger issue for me in home entertainment. I'm willing to spend a good chunk of money on equipment and content if the equipment manufacturers and content providers would give me what I actually want. But in so many areas, all of the offerings fall short in one way or another (e.g. movie download services, the subject of a recent blog I posted (http://sharding.org/blog/2008/01/16/video-download-services-they-all-suck/)). I'd buy into an HD disc format if there were one great, well-supported option. I'd heavily use a movie rental download service if there were one that's really good (see my criteria in that blog post). I'd spend big cash on a home media server if there were one that kicked ass (including letting me rip and store my own legal, licensed full quality HD movies). But between format wars, poorly-implemented copy protection (I'm actually not totally anti-DRM, but it has to be reasonable), boneheaded legal strategies and short sighted product planning, I've been driven to give very little money to the home entertainment industry. Their loss, I guess...

Anyway, I'll probably buy a BD player before the end of the year, but any sense of urgency I may have once had has long worn off.

Looks like a nice player. I have the 30 and it pretty much performed flawlessly. I had a hiccup or two on "sunshine".

I would really like one of the Denon players, but I am not going to ugrade for quite some time.....(I also have two PS3's).

Why so many PS3's? Also I personally don't perfer Panasonic TV's (horrible quality), but I do hear lots of praise for their DVD and BD players.

I have an HD projector with a 92 inch screen that would benefit from HD content but I'll probably stay with an OPPO upscaler and SD-DVD for a long time yet for several reasons. There is still little content outside of Hollywood blockbusters - it's like having your reading restricted to US airport bookstore paperbacks; there are region restrictions in the players (except for HD on the HD but not SD content) or no PAL playback so you have to have multiple players if you want movies from around the world: with SD all you need is an OPPO; the players have noisy fans, unlike SD players, that are intrusive if you watch movies with silent scenes; there is little incentive to invest in software if there may be no hardware to play it on when your original expensive set of multiple players (because of the region and PAL problems as well as exclusive studio releases requiring two formats) quit.

incomplete players and still too expensive. I'll get a PS3 or a future "complete" player if it get's near $200. They can keep it until then. That's when I bought HD DVD and that's when I'll buy Blu Ray.

Pat

The only reason I don't have a BD player is I have been waiting for Sony to put the Rumble controller in with the PS3, I do not want to spend $50-$60 for a controller, thats one new game or 3 movies if you wait for some deals.

I do not care if I can't play the discs elsewhere, if its a movie I actually care about watching I need it to be on my HDTV with surround sound, Since I have gotten a HDTV I have not watched a DVD on anything else.

I also don't really care for all these new interactive features, so the different profiles don't really affect me, the only extra features I ever watch on a disc are Bloopers and Deleted Scenes.

I want a PS3 so the fact that it plays Blu-ray makes it so I don't have to get a standalone which I would get another one once price reaches $100-$150. The only problem with some of the early BD players is the fact that they can't pass thru or infernally decode all the new audio formats so I would not have never bought one of them but the PS3 should be getting DTSHD-MA.

As soon as the PS3 gets rumble I will get that.

Haven't bought into HD-DVD/BluRay owing to cost/performance/two options. I will likely buy BluRay - assuming it wins - when the price is around $100; otherwise it isn't cost/performance effective. I do have an HD-DVD drive on my laptop, but why bother for a 17" screen? Have an Opo upconverting DVD player in my theater feeding a Mits 3100 onto a 104" Carada 16:9 screen. Also Dish HD programing.
So, for now will just wait it out. Besides I'm almost certain that solid-state hd delivery isn't that far in the future; an HD "credit card" that will send mechanical systems into the dust bin. Also, in my view the studios are cream skiming in their pricing of discs. So will just sit tight and enjoy my current setup.

Honestly if J6P thinks anything like my parents do then HDM will and never will be more then a niche market. I bought my parents a 50" Panasonic LIFI 1080P tv since they wanted a larger set for the new house and since this tv has the QAM tuner, they are able pick up a bunch of free channels. They get several HD stations, but whenever I step into the living room my dad is watching NESN in SDor my mom watching Prison Break in SD as opposed to HD as opposed to the HD counterpart. I asked why they don't watch the HD channels and they said they really just didn't care. I know they see the PQ difference but I just think they don't need that PQ to still be able to enjoy what ever it is they are watching.

All the same goes with my HD DVD player they just don't really care. They say their up-convert player is just fine. Between the price of players, media, and the lack of an effective sales pitch by both formats this will only be a more and more difficult battle. To make things worse the format war has just created a negative image for HDM. Trust me I love my HD DVD player and my HD DVD's but there just isn't an urgency for J6P to go out and get any form of HDM like the transition from VHS to DVD had.

I don't quite get the "waiting for the prices to come down" reasoning. If players were $2000, then I could understand. But they're not.

If you can afford an HDTV that's big enough to show the value of HD content, then surely you can afford $300-400 for a player?

I already watch HDM, on a $100 player. I don't need to spend nearly half a grand to watch the other format. Price matters.

Honestly if J6P thinks anything like my parents do then HDM will and never will be more then a niche market. I bought my parents a 50" Panasonic LIFI 1080P tv since they wanted a larger set for the new house and since this tv has the QAM tuner, they are able pick up a bunch of free channels. They get several HD stations, but whenever I step into the living room my dad is watching NESN in SDor my mom watching Prison Break in SD as opposed to HD as opposed to the HD counterpart. I asked why they don't watch the HD channels and they said they really just didn't care. I know they see the PQ difference but I just think they don't need that PQ to still be able to enjoy what ever it is they are watching.

All the same goes with my HD DVD player they just don't really care. They say their up-convert player is just fine. Between the price of players, media, and the lack of an effective sales pitch by both formats this will only be a more and more difficult battle. To make things worse the format war has just created a negative image for HDM. Trust me I love my HD DVD player and my HD DVD's but there just isn't an urgency for J6P to go out and get any form of HDM like the transition from VHS to DVD had.

No offense to your parents but I dont think this format will take off with the older generation. People that are in there 50s and 60s (not sure how old your parents are) are not as into this kind of stuff as the people in the 18 to 40s demo. They are the ones that care and want to spend money on this type of stuff.

No offense to your parents but I dont think this format will take off with the older generation. People that are in there 50s and 60s (not sure how old your parents are) are not as into this kind of stuff as the people in the 18 to 40s demo. They are the ones that care and want to spend money on this type of stuff.

i'm 50 and very much into music,movies,hi-fi ,ht and computers(apple).

i'm 50 and very much into music,movies,hi-fi ,ht and computers(apple).

My post wasnt meant to offend anyone who is in there 50s and 60s. I was speaking for the majorities. There is a reason a movies like Crank or Pirates sell better then most older catalog films. Many people make fun of much of the BD lineup calling the movies PS3 films but it is the truth. That is what is selling.

Because the cases are too small. First it was the DVD cases being so much smaller than VHS, and now this.

No offense to your parents but I dont think this format will take off with the older generation. People that are in there 50s and 60s (not sure how old your parents are) are not as into this kind of stuff as the people in the 18 to 40s demo. They are the ones that care and want to spend money on this type of stuff.

I resemble that remark. I am 65 and love the HDM. Won't watch SD which baffles my lovely wife. Wonder if I could convince the IRS she is blind so I could get another deduction.

No offense to your parents but I dont think this format will take off with the older generation. People that are in there 50s and 60s (not sure how old your parents are) are not as into this kind of stuff as the people in the 18 to 40s demo. They are the ones that care and want to spend money on this type of stuff.

My parents (almost 60) are obsessed with HD now (all the sudden after viewing HD at my house) but they are HD satellite only. They have no desire to buy HDM, especially $400 players. As is my almost 70 uncle. No offense, but that was kinda a not very well thought out remark.. :o

I'm waiting for a better overall selection and hopefully a single/joint format. Price is secondary and backwards compatibility with legacy DVD players/dual discs would be a close third.

I was on Amazon today adding Blu movies to my "HD Movies I Want" wish list (I didn't get a chance to do HDD movies) and I was a little saddened by the number of movies that I would never own in either HD or SD. I don't consider myself a movie snob or prudish, but I was surprised at how few movies I actually added to my list (31 if you're interested).

My parents (almost 60) are obsessed with HD now (all the sudden after viewing HD at my house) but they are HD satellite only. They have no desire to buy HDM, especially $400 players. As is my almost 70 uncle. No offense, but that was kinda a not very well thought out remark.. :o

It was a very well thought out remark. For every one comment about your parents ive read on here Ive read 5 that said the opposite. Again, my comments were not meant to be offensive. On average, what movies make the most money in theatres? Answer: Big budget action movies directed at teens and college students and animated kids flicks. Steretyping or not that is the case and that same audience will be the ones "most" interested in Hi Def. There are plenty of exceptions to every rule. I hope that I remain as interested in this kind of thing when I am in my 50's and 60's like your parents.

It was a very well thought out remark. For every one comment about your parents ive read on here Ive read 5 that said the opposite. Again, my comments were not meant to be offensive. On average, what movies make the most money in theatres? Answer: Big budget action movies directed at teens and college students and animated kids flicks. Steretyping or not that is the case and that same audience will be the ones "most" interested in Hi Def. There are plenty of exceptions to every rule. I hope that I remain as interested in this kind of thing when I am in my 50's and 60's like your parents.

No, it wasn't very thought out. There are tons of members of this forum that are over 40. Then there are tons of retirees of the baby boomer generation building their retirement houses and getting new home theaters to watch while they sit at home everyday. It may not be as big of a market, but who do you think is buying these $1500 players to drive the cost down for us young folks? People with money.. which are most likely over 40. TBH though, in a sense you're right. They'll probably just opt for HD over satellite or cable instead of wasting money on a disc.

No, it wasn't very thought out. There are tons of members of this forum that are over 40. Then there are tons of retirees of the baby boomer generation building their retirement houses and getting new home theaters to watch while they sit at home everyday. It may not be as big of a market, but who do you think is buying these $1500 players to drive the cost down for us young folks? People with money.. which are most likely over 40. TBH though, in a sense you're right. They'll probably just opt for HD over satellite or cable instead of wasting money on a disc.

You said it yourself. I never said they dont exist. But they are a minority.

Interesting thread. Thanks to all who have contributed. I have a few questions..

Do the people who are waiting because HDM software prices are too expensive often frequent movie theaters? I ask because I prefer watching blu-ray over the theater experience. This was not the case with DVD. Therefore HDM to me is easily justified from a cost stand point. Since May I've seen only two movies in the theater and both times it was with family and I was out of town. Before I'd see at least two films per month and often times more. So a $20 HDM movie too me seems like a deal when comparing it to a $9-$10 movie ticket plus the occasional extremely overpriced trip to the concession area. My wife loves Jane Austen and I offered to take her to see Becoming Jane in the theater and she said no I'll wait for it to come out on BD. :eek:

Several people have used that they can't watch them on their current portable DVD players as reason. It seems like people have the mindset that once they switch over there is no going back. I'm not sure I understand. Why not choose whether to buy the DVD or HDM version on a title by title basis? Kids seem to be a big emphasis as well... I see no reason not to continue buying the Dora the Explorer movies on DVD but why does that mean a select number of films (favorites or those you think would really benefit from HD) can't be purchased on HDM?

Anyway, I'm just curious. I found this thread to be very enlightening. Please don't take offense to the above comments. :)

As someone who paid over $800 for his first DVD player back in 1998, $400 for a Blu Ray player seems like a steal. Still that's not why I haven't bought in yet. I'm going to wait until the final nail is in the coffin and I'm absolutely sure there's no going back and the war is well and truly over before I jump in. Maybe in a few months unless things develop faster than I think they will.

Blu-ray? Sony has kept up with the pS3 updates so well, I just don't see any need.

HDDVD? Every time I think I'm ready to buy one, there's another massive price drop. I've resigned myself to trying to get an XA1 on evilbay for $50 or less, so I can frankenstein my 360 add-on in it. :D

This is an interesting thread, as it is populated by people who have not yet bought Blu-Ray yet are generally serious about A/V. From the peanut gallery, I would think that the movie selection and price issues will be significantly different by Black Friday 2008. And perhaps the Blu-Ray/HDTV bundling promotions will bring some people into the Blu-Ray fold long before that time. (I continue to think that's an excellent promotion for Sony, Sharp, Panasonic, etc.) But the Blu-Ray studios also have to get on releasing more quality catalog titles (like Fox with Patton) and Warner has to release on Blu-Ray some of the movies it released on HD-DVD (like Casablanca).

These posts are interesting. Keep it up.

No offense to your parents but I dont think this format will take off with the older generation. People that are in there 50s and 60s (not sure how old your parents are) are not as into this kind of stuff as the people in the 18 to 40s demo. They are the ones that care and want to spend money on this type of stuff.

I agree that the older demographic may be generally less in-tune with today's most modern technology, but it's definitely not to the degree that you're implying. They are a considerably strong consumer base for high-def media. Bear in mind that the 40+ demographic are generally more financially stable and are at more of a liberty to spend their money on leisure and entertainment than someone who may be starting their career and paying off student loans, or young families who are paying mortgages and building education funds, etc... The more mature demographic are likely also have children who are at an age where HDTV would benefit the entire family. It balances out.

My parents are 50-60-ish and I have many relatives & family-friends who are 50+. They are all very interested and knowledgable when it comes to high-tech home theatre stuff. Even the ones who aren't very techno-savvy often fall in love with someone else's HDTV & Blu-Ray, and decide to get their own.

These aren't specialized single cases. Of everyone I know who is 40+ compared to everyone I know who is around my age (25), it's the former who are the ones that are more knowledgable about, more interested in and more able to purchase home theatre stuff.

You vastly underestimate the old-fogeys.

*no one said you had to buy. rent! or
*buy the blu ray disc and rent the movie? or
**just buy the blu ray and only watch movies on you high def setup or
*buy another blu ray player and use it on ur SD tv until you upgrade or

**why just on that setup? because you should have surround sound (dont have surround sound? then get it) movies are MEANT to be watched in surround sound. or

*just keep doing what your doing... thats just my opinions and some options for you to consider :)

You said it yourself. I never said they dont exist. But they are a minority.You should have bolded the whole thing.

Its true that the majority of people in the know about HDM are younger people, but the majority of people buying the $1500 HDTV sets are definitely over 40.

I think Sony STILL proves to us they have no confidence in Bluray or else they would sell the Bluray portion of the PS3 as a stand alone for $299 or less.


When they sell the PS3 they know they will make money with the royalties included in each sold PS3 videogame.

I they made a stripped-down PS3 without its videogame ability:

* they could remove some components but the BOM wouldn't be very much lower.
* they would make no money from the videogame royalties

So they coudln't price it significantly lower than the PS3.

Even worse it could hurt ps3 sales, Blu-Ray support being a selling point of the ps3.

That would be counter-productive for Sony.

Sony got it right:
The PS3 when bought as a console is a vehicle for Blu-Ray.
The PS3 when bought for Blu-Ray is a vehicle for their videogame business.

Such a move would be a desespearate measure and never was needed in any point of the lifetime of Blu-Ray.

I have HDM players in both formats, but I am not completely happy. In fact, I had to rig three players up to my system to really get what I want. I have a PS3, A3 and a Marantz SD player all hooked up so I can enjoy movies AND music. I use the PS3 for Blu-Ray and games, the A3 for HD-DVD and some SD and the Marantz for SACD, CD and DVD-A as well as SD DVD. It can be mind boggling.

If I had been less inclined to "jump in", I would have waited and maybe the upcoming Denon (or maybe Marantz) BD player would have been better. But what most people really want is a single box solution.

Also, what bothers me (and one thing that HD DVD has that I like) is how many people are waiting because they have so many DVD players around the house and in the car and in the condo and at school, and, and...they can't replace them all. Therefore any disc they buy can't be played everywhere so they either have to rent the HD disc and buy the SD disc or buy both or buy neither.

I can tell you that it really has made me have to think hard on a realease by release basis, which dramatically cuts down on impulse purchases. I have criteria something like:


R rated and I know I will like it- buy HDM, no SD
R-Rated and I am not sure about it- rent HDM
PG or PG13 and I know the whole family likes it- buy combo HD DVD or rent BD and buy SD
PG or PG-13 and I know only the kids will want it- buy SD
PG or PG-13 and I am not sure we will like it- rent HD or SD
Add to the above the fact that every HD version is almost always "very long wait" at Netflix and that the HD versions are so expensive and you see how complex this can be for even an early adopter.

In the past, I went to Best Buy or Wal-Mart almost every Tuesday and bought anything we knew we liked and would watch again (at the sale prices) and rented anything we were not sure about. So, I have over 1000 DVDs, but even after a year, only a handful of HD discs. It's just too darn complicated....
How do you think that affects the "regular consumer"?

*no one said you had to buy. rent! or
*buy the blu ray disc and rent the movie? or
**just buy the blu ray and only watch movies on you high def setup or
*buy another blu ray player and use it on ur SD tv until you upgrade or

**why just on that setup? because you should have surround sound (dont have surround sound? then get it) movies are MEANT to be watched in surround sound. or

*just keep doing what your doing... thats just my opinions and some options for you to consider :)

The simple fact that someone would have to consider NOT being able to enjoy a movie on any of their existing players in the house OR replacing their other existing players to do so is a threat to the success of HD disc.

Why do either when you can just buy the DVD, spend less overall and still enjoy your existing players?

When they sell the PS3 they know they will make money with the royalties included in each sold PS3 videogame.

I they made a stripped-down PS3 without its videogame ability:

* they could remove some components but the BOM wouldn't be very much lower.
* they would make no money from the videogame royalties

So they coudln't price it significantly lower than the PS3.

Even worse it could hurt ps3 sales, Blu-Ray support being a selling point of the ps3.

That would be counter-productive for Sony.

Sony got it right:
The PS3 when bought as a console is a vehicle for Blu-Ray.
The PS3 when bought for Blu-Ray is a vehicle for their videogame business.

Such a move would be a desespearate measure and never was needed in any point of the lifetime of Blu-Ray.

The PS3 as a multipurpose machine has the potential for each purchaser to watch Blu-ray movies or play PS3 games, but doesn't guarantee either. Since the price drop to $399, some have bought the PS3 for Blu-ray only since it's the only 2.0 capable Blu-ray device on the market right now and have no intention to play games on it. Some others who bought the PS3 or received it as a gift did it for just games.

Even so, they are also some people out there that refuse to buy a PS3 at its current price but would buy one without Blu-ray.

There no way to really qualify what kind support the PS3 is really receiving in the short term. Only time will tell whether integrating BD in the PS3 will ensure the mass market success of BD or PS3 games.

I don't quite get the "waiting for the prices to come down" reasoning. If players were $2000, then I could understand. But they're not.

If you can afford an HDTV that's big enough to show the value of HD content, then surely you can afford $300-400 for a player?

Couple of thoughts here. One, something being "affordable" does not automatically make it a "buy", right? I mean, there are lots of things I can afford to buy, but choose not to. Why? Value. So beyond being able to afford a $400, my choice to not purchase one is based on value. I do not believe that buying a $400 player that is not even a complete (i.e., not profile 2.0) player yet with all of its java and BD+ glitches worked out represents good value. To be fair, even HD DVD had a bit of work in front of it in the "glitches" department, which is common for new products, they just happened to be a bit further on the development curve.

I have a nice 50" Panasonic plasma TV that I picked up on closeout for $1,700. Nothing that happens tomorrow or a year from now, or three years from now (other than the TV falling off the wall, knock on wood) will make that purchase a bad one. The same holds true of my other flat panel TVs. Better TVs will come along, and I may eventually upgrade my plasma, it is fully functional and will remain so. The same cannot be said of current BD players.

Also, for households with multiple TVs and multiple existing DVD players, its really not as simple as $400. Take our household, we have no less than five DVD players in different rooms (this does not include PCs or portables, btw). So, we're left with a couple of choices: 1) buy five new BD players for about $2,000 and then re-buy them when profile 2.0 players come out, 2) buy a single BD player and then "double up" on media, buying both the BD version and the DVD version of a movie, making each movie a $40 to $45 proposition. Neither of these look particularly appealing. I've already got 500+ DVDs on the shelf, so adding to a collection that will (hopefully) be obsolete in the not too distant future (crosses fingers) doesn't seem like money well-spent to me or my wife.

Again, YMMV, and I can respect that for some people, audio/video stuff isn't just a "like" it's a "need". I get that (I feel that way about cars and motorcycles), so if that's your passion, by all means, jump in. If everything were a logical, rational choice . . . life would be no fun.:D

Several people have used that they can't watch them on their current portable DVD players as reason. It seems like people have the mindset that once they switch over there is no going back. I'm not sure I understand. Why not choose whether to buy the DVD or HDM version on a title by title basis? Kids to seem a big emphasis as well... I see no reason not to continue buying the Dora the Explorer movies on DVD but why does that mean a select number of films (favorites or those you think would really benefit from HD) can't be purchased on HDM?

I can't speak for others, but for me personally it's about not being "limited" in any way. Maybe I'm spoiled, maybe I want to have my cake and eat it too, whatever it may be, I don't feel I should HAVE to choose between buying a DVD and a HDM disc. Until players are cheap enough for me to replace all of my players so that I don't have to choose which disc to buy . . . I'll choose to buy DVDs and up-convert them where I'm able to do so.

All my movies are watched via HTPC from mediaserver on any of the 4 TV's or PC's in the house. I will never purchase a standalone player.

With that said, I own > 250 HD DVD the reason I went HD DVD was
* Finished spec
* Inexpensive XBOX 360 drive
* Ability to rip to media sever (Thanks Any DVD)
* Software that for the most part plays HD DVD without major issues.

Why I have not purchased Blu-Ray yet
* Incomplete Spec
* Unaccepatable DRM. (BD+)
* With the large # of HD DVD's Ive purchased, there really is not that much content on Blu-Ray that I don't already have. There are a few titles that are Blu-Ray only, but not enogh to put up with the hassles of getting them on my HTPC.
* The announced releases for the next 6 months is reallty poor.
* The available software players suck big time on Blu-Ray (profile issues)

So, for me to buy in to Blu-Ray these things need to happen.
* Blu-Ray drive < $200
* Any DVD handles BD+
* The studios step up the release of compelling movies in a big way.
* Software players or other solutions that allow playback from mediaserver.

The question is for those new to this site that really question both formats or the users who are still up in the air on which format to purchase. (do not own any HiDef players)

Share with us your opinion on what you look forward into your future purchase of HD.

I simply see no reason to.

Players are incomplete, discs are over priced.

I'll wait until one format exists and prices come down on working, finished players.

people stating that the movie will not play on their other 3 or more players
would have had this problem years ago when vhs ruled could not shove those
disc in a tape player either yet it did not stop people from buying into that format
and those first dvd players were higher than the current crop of hd players and
they could not do dts.

people stating that the movie will not play on their other 3 or more players
would have had this problem years ago when vhs ruled could not shove those
disc in a tape player either yet it did not stop people from buying into that format
and those first dvd players were higher than the current crop of hd players and
they could not do dts.

There are so many problems with your theory. I'll only tackle one this time. :)

VHS was notorious for wearing out, being eaten by the player, etc. Customers welcomed the move to something that the player couldn't destroy, and wouldn't wear out.

We don't have any, ANY advantage from SD DVD to HDM except AQ/VQ. The following influences buying habits:

Quality, Convenience, Service, Price

HDM only offers higher quality, none of the others.

people stating that the movie will not play on their other 3 or more players
would have had this problem years ago when vhs ruled could not shove those
disc in a tape player either yet it did not stop people from buying into that format
and those first dvd players were higher than the current crop of hd players and
they could not do dts.

there weren't (for the most part) car vhs players or portable vhs players (with lcd displays). there weren't portable mp3 players (i.e. ipods) which you could rip your vhs tapes to back then, either.

No offense to your parents but I dont think this format will take off with the older generation. People that are in there 50s and 60s (not sure how old your parents are) are not as into this kind of stuff as the people in the 18 to 40s demo. They are the ones that care and want to spend money on this type of stuff.

Speaking as someone who is approaching 50 rather quickly, I'd say you are probably correct. But I don't think that demographic is incapable of appreciating the technology; it's just that the experience that comes with aging brings discernment and different priorities.

When I was in my late teens and early 20's I got all caught up in the hype over the technology of the day. Had to have the newest, best, etc. Read it all, knew it all and fell for it all. Everyone not like me just didn't get it. Because you have few responsibilities everything you do is very egocentric which of course, you are incapable of realizing at that time. Because you have fewer experiences everything seems new. My list of all time best movies at 20 years old probably consisted of the last 5 movies I saw.
My list of most life changing technologies probably consisted of what I was using at the time.

FF 30 years. At 50 you've seen the same things play out over and over. I can't count how many times have I heard the terms "amazing", "spectacular", "reveolutionary", "jaw dropping", etc. applied to something that somebody wanted me to buy. Remember the hype over "it" - Ginger - Segway? Now one format is "the look and sound of perfect"? Really?

Sure, most people regardless of age will conceded that HD is better than SD but the problem HDM faces isn't that its unappreciated, the question is how to motivate an aging population, that has been through this drill many times in their lives, to buy into it.

it appears my point was not made about people having 2 and more vhs players
needing to be replaced because of dvd and the fact that untill recently dvd players
where not cheap but then even i could come up with reason after reason not to buy
into hd other than i like it and will buy it as for the masses who knows what they will
do especially when they will wait in a line for a 600.00 phone so go figure.

as for the masses who knows what they will
do especially when they will wait in a line for a 600.00 phone so go figure.

Exactly. The masses are just not interested in HDM at it's current price. I haven't seen anyone lining up to buy a Blu-ray player yet.

If it as in-demand, people would spend $600 on a movie player instead of an iPhone. It's not. Nobody wants it nor cares.

The proof is in the "stats". How much volume does Blu-ray do on it's #1 title in a week? Pathetic. The only people making money in this game are the studios who are flopping back and forth. They certainly aren't making any money from SALES.

People will buy into HDM. When it replaces DVD for the same price. Period.

There is no marketing model to increase profits in the home movie business. It's not the glory days of the 90s where everyone rushes out and buys 500$ players and 30$ movies to replace their VHS collections.

The only thing HDM is good for is to ensure the DVD business doesn't go the way of the music business overnight. They are on a downward spiral and if they made HDM available to replace DVD... they might just be able to hold on to the revenue they are experiencing for a few more years. If not, downloads will overtake the movie business. Legal or not.

HDM will work if it's a "new and improved" rather than a "brand new product".

I'm waiting for a True Universal player that will play not only BD's and DVD's but also DVD-A's and SACD's. The older Panasonic was close, but the new Panny does not play DVD-A's.

I'm waiting for a True Universal player that will play not only BD's and DVD's but also DVD-A's and SACD's. The older Panasonic was close, but the new Panny does not play DVD-A's.

i'm afraid those are dead also not to happy about that either.

I am waiting for backward compatible media to be broadly available. HD alone is not enough of a benefit to cause so much disruption to my disk viewing enjoyment. With the exception of very few selected disks I will only buy backward compatible disks (i.e. combos).

Quiz:
Q1: What is the resolution of a non-combo disk in your portable media player?
Q2: What is the bitrate of a non-combo disk in your in-car media system?
Q3: How many non-combo disk advanced audio formats can you play on your notebook PC while traveling?

How many people can answer anything except 0, 0, 0?

I am waiting for backward compatible media to be broadly available. HD alone is not enough of a benefit to cause so much disruption to my disk viewing enjoyment. With the exception of very few selected disks I will only buy backward compatible disks (i.e. combos).

Quiz:
Q1: What is the resolution of a non-combo disk in your portable media player?
Q2: What is the bitrate of a non-combo disk in your in-car media system?
Q3: How many non-combo disk advanced audio formats can you play on your notebook PC while traveling?

How many people can answer anything except 0, 0, 0?

Well for 99% of the population that is not really a concern. For the rest, Im sure most of them have SD collections that they can manage to pick a movie here or there that is good enough to bring with them for those situations.

For those of you who are HD only would you really want to watch the Bourne Ultimatum on a 4 inch portable monitor in SD after seeing it in Hi Def glory on your main system? I couldnt imagine ever using the SD side of my combo discs. It is a slap in the face to Hi Def media.

Well for 99% of the population that is not really a concern. For the rest, Im sure most of them have SD collections that they can manage to pick a movie here or there that is good enough to bring with them for those situations.

For those of you who are HD only would you really want to watch the Bourne Ultimatum on a 4 inch portable monitor in SD after seeing it in Hi Def glory on your main system? I couldnt imagine ever using the SD side of my combo discs. It is a slap in the face to Hi Def media.

Almost 10% of all vehicles sold in the US come with rear-seat entertainment systems. That is a lot more than 1% of the population.

"Of the 17 million vehicles sold in the United States annually, about 1.5 million come with rear-seat entertainment systems. And RSE systems are added to another 1.2 million vehicles each year, according to Phil Magney, president of Telematics Research Group, which provides intelligence on the automotive and mobile electronics industries."

http://www.progressive.com/auto-tech/in-car-dvd-options.aspx

i'm afraid those are dead also not to happy about that either.

+1

In fact they are so dead that Amazon doesn't even have a sparate section for them any more. SACDs are lumped in with CDs and I am not sure where (if) DVD-A's are.

They are so niche they are only at boutique on-line houses now.

Almost 10% of all vehicles sold in the US come with rear-seat entertainment systems. That is a lot more than 1% of the population.

"Of the 17 million vehicles sold in the United States annually, about 1.5 million come with rear-seat entertainment systems. And RSE systems are added to another 1.2 million vehicles each year, according to Phil Magney, president of Telematics Research Group, which provides intelligence on the automotive and mobile electronics industries."

http://www.progressive.com/auto-tech/in-car-dvd-options.aspx

10% of the vehicles sold. What % of the population owns vehicles?

People are so concerned with the few times a year they will use their portable players that they are willing to deprive themselves of the highest quality in their main viewing areas. And again, just because you buy into BD doesnt mean that all of your existing SDs wont still play in those portable devices.

Wow this thread is an eye opener for sure... And we aren't even talking about the General Public yet. I have said it before and I have yet have more than 2 people at my house see a big difference to justify the purchase at all not even considering price. When I tell them the price of players and software prices they litterally laugh at me and tell me I am crazy.

I can tell you one thing that this is probably the worst time (considering the economy) for a new format to be starting up IMO.

I can tell you one thing that this is probably the worst time (considering the economy) for a new format to be starting up IMO.

That could be a very real and very costly lesson Sony might learn. If this fails on them... they've thrown a considerable amount of their company into it.

10% of the vehicles sold. What % of the population owns vehicles?

People are so concerned with the few times a year they will use their portable players that they are willing to deprive themselves of the highest quality in their main viewing areas. And again, just because you buy into BD doesnt mean that all of your existing SDs wont still play in those portable devices.

The point is that portable devices are popular. People are buying them because they like having them. HD does not have a benefit on a laptop screen or portable player, so there is no need or point in upgrading those.

The industry should have recognized that and put out a HD format that was capable of being played in existing SD-DVD players. They did not and so people who enjoy watching the media they purchase in different environments have a disincentive to make the jump.

This thread is for people to list the reasons why they have not bought into either of the two formats, not to justify their reasons :)

10% of the vehicles sold. What % of the population owns vehicles?

People are so concerned with the few times a year they will use their portable players that they are willing to deprive themselves of the highest quality in their main viewing areas. And again, just because you buy into BD doesnt mean that all of your existing SDs wont still play in those portable devices.

population of the united states is 300 million.

1.5 million vehicles sold last year with rear-entertainment systems.

1.2 million rear-entertainment systems were added to vehicles last year.

so about 1% of the population bought rear-entertainment systems for their vehicles last year alone.

there's only about 425 blu-ray disc titles available today.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/28/hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-releases-on-january-29th-2008/

I hear you!

To the earlier post about VHS, a couple of thoughts -- while VHS had been around for some time, it had not acheived the kind of penetration that DVD eventually did. Purely anecdotal, but I don't remember many houses with more than 1 or maybe 2 (max) VCRs around the house when DVD came to market. Also, PCs and laptops weren't nearly as ubiquitous, and they certainly weren't seen as entertainment devices in the same way as they are today. VHS movies were still quite expensive to buy, btw, which may have been part of the problem for movie sales.

As has already been mentioned, when DVDs came out they were CLEARLY superior to VHS on a variety of fronts: no tape rewinding, no "eaten" tapes, really easy scene and disc navigation, vastly superior video quality, no more "worn out" tapes from multiple viewings, and superior form factor, to name a few. That's a pretty long list of benefits for consumers relative to HDM's rather short list of advantages such as superior AQ and VQ versus DVD and . . .

I do not think the 360 add-on has anyway for you to hear the new lossless audio formats. So if thats your only HDDVD player and you will not buy a BD player because its not a final profile, isn't that the same for the add-on you will never be able to hear lossless audio. So for the 360 add-on and early BD players there will always features on a disc you will not be able to use.

I can understand the non finalized argument if you have a standalone HDDVD player but not the add-on.

This is a very good thread and helps put this whole format war into perspective. Like many have said a dual format disc is probably the best resolution to many consumers apprehension to buy into HDM. I think Toshiba was onto something doing the dual format discs they just didn't market them accordingly. At this point I don't care who wins the war. I own HD DVD and I have several discs that are dual format and some that arn't. And it is very inconvenient when my brother asks "whoa cool what movie did you get?, transformers?, when you're done can I watch it in my room?, oh I can't? That sucks." lol

Even if the players cost $300 or $400 I don't think that really matters, consumers just need to see they are getting alot for their money when they buy HD DVD's or Blu Ray discs, being the dual format premise. Being that the dual format disks need to be at the sweet spot price around $19.99, not $34.99 like the HD DVD's. I enjoy HDM alot, but when I see a dual format disc first I think great this will be good, then I see the price and think wellll......maybe I will buy that a little later.

10% of the vehicles sold. What % of the population owns vehicles?

People are so concerned with the few times a year they will use their portable players that they are willing to deprive themselves of the highest quality in their main viewing areas. And again, just because you buy into BD doesnt mean that all of your existing SDs wont still play in those portable devices.

Got kids? Got Grandkids? Every single kid in our family is treated to thier own screen in the back of the car. That is 7 grandkids. And every trip longer than a few minutes has some sort of media playing. Songs for the teens and movies for the yunguns. And those players did not come in the vehicle. Too expensive. They are add ons purchased for peanuts during sales.

the one thing i noticed lately is a lot of negativity things change to be bitter over a
business decision you or i have no control will not change the outcome i have seen a
lot of things come and go that i did not like in the av field grin and bare it you will
live longer and someone can't pull your old thread up later cause things did not happen
as was stated.

Several Reasons...

1. Price, this one isn't major, but the price of the discs is the bigger factor than the players themselves.

2. Software problems, I'm a HTPC guy and quite frankly the software support issues are not something I want to deal with.

3. Format War. I want to make sure I buy the right one, I probably wont buy until the war is all but over.

4. Downloads. Right now I can download the movies I want in HD and not worry about the above 3. I will certainly buy them at a later point, but for now I have a stop gap measure and as a result Im in no rush.

5. I'm waiting for the next Madden, NCAA football and another bigtime game to hit the PS3 and see how they are before I buy them. As someone who played just about every game on the Xbox, the only games that I still play and really played much after an initial run was Madden and NCAA football, so those will be a big factor.

Thats about it.

A combination of factors for me - format uncertainty, price for both players and media, available alternatives for HD content (DirecTV HD DVR + netflix in my case), current availability of titles that I'm interested in, desire to not buy yet another CE device that I may realize later I didn't really need / don't use as much as I thought I would, hardware future compatibility concerns...when the HD-A3 hit $100.04 at Circuit City though, I decided the rest of the concerns didn't matter, and bought one. Still holding out for BR player prices to come down.

the one thing i noticed lately is a lot of negativity things change to be bitter over a
business decision you or i have no control will not change the outcome i have seen a
lot of things come and go that i did not like in the av field grin and bare it you will
live longer and someone can't pull your old thread up later cause things did not happen
as was stated.

punctuation and the use of capital letters is sometimes useful if you want other people to actually understand what you've written otherwise someone may read your post and not really understand what you're trying to say which is probably the case with this most recent post is it really that difficult to hit the shift key or the comma or period key every once in a while

After less than a month of viewing both BLU-RAY, HD DVD and REGULAR DVD on my 58 inch Panasonic TH-58PZ700U, I have decided to return both the BLU-RAY player and the Plasma TV back to BB.

The reasoning was simple: When I saw both REGULAR DVD and BLU-RAY or HD DVD on the Plasma set, the difference was not night and day - yes, it was noticeable, BUT NOT BY MUCH.

Yes the resolution was higher and image was a little clearer on HD, but over-all, the image that I got on the 58 inch Plasma was fairly comparable to the images produced on 36 inch CRT with component DVD, except it was just bigger, at my viewing distance of about 10 feet or so (I have a Sony 36" Flat CRT - NTSC).

I actually preferred the CRT over Plasma, as the image had much more realism, depth and contrast - a much better presentation. The Plasma picture was pretty, but... it was just too flat - just too 2D... and "boring" if you will, for my taste.

Returning to CRT after a month of Plasma, it really surprised me as to how nice the pictures were on CRT - over-all, it was just simply BETTER.

It really WAS NOT WORTH the 4000 dollars upgrade cost, including the BLU-RAY player. The gain in picture quality wasn't anything exceptional and only marginally better.

Plasma displays have improved, but it still isn't as good as the old CRT displays. It's getting there tho, but not there yet.

And IMHO, even 1080P may not be enough of a "high resolution" and perhaps higher resolution (for the same screen size) would help.

I've decided to wait for plasma display to get better - or perhaps SED??? - but for now, I think I will stick to my CRT and component DVD and my 26" LCD with HD DVD that I view about 2ft. away on my desk.

CRT is 50 yrs. old technology, and Plasma, only about 10 yrs. Dithering techniques on regular DVDs have had plenty of time to improve over the past decade.

I can see the "potential" of high-definition television, but that potential still has not been fully realized as of yet.

I'll pass for now.

Got kids? Got Grandkids? Every single kid in our family is treated to thier own screen in the back of the car. That is 7 grandkids. And every trip longer than a few minutes has some sort of media playing. Songs for the teens and movies for the yunguns. And those players did not come in the vehicle. Too expensive. They are add ons purchased for peanuts during sales.

I think this is the 4th time someone has tried to argue against a statement I have made by giving a personal example that is easily an extreme minority.

WoW!

I can't believe we have so many "HT enthusiasts" holding out on new technology, especially when you can get into HD DVD for pretty cheap. Even some BR players are getting fairly inexpensive. If many "enthusiasts" aren't jumping in then it makes me think that it really does not matter which format wins the right to become the next laserdisc.

I guess those that can't see and hear an appreciable difference between SD and HDM would probably do better to spend the $$ on Lasix and hearing aids rather than home electronics.

"Why haven't I bought a Blu-ray or HD DVD player yet"

I'm just tired of the "this whole sorry saga of clashing egos" and the "stupid and unnecessary battle bewtween the next generation DVD formats" which is "keeping the whole new world of high-def movies on DVD from blossoming".

I usually compose my own thoughts, but David Pogue says it best in today's N.Y. Times:

The electronics industry has spent billions of dollars on a stupid and unnecessary battle between the next-generation DVD formats: Blu-ray and HD DVD. And so far, it’s all been pretty much for nothing; consumers aren’t touching the things. Nobody wants to risk buying a DVD player that can play only half of the world’s movies.

But a couple of weeks ago, there was a seismic shift in the format war: Warner Brothers Entertainment, one of the biggest movie studios, announced that starting in June, it would issue its movies in the Blu-ray format instead of HD DVD. At that point, three-quarters of all high-def movies will be offered only in Blu-ray.

Plenty of pundits applauded the Warner departure, declaring the format war essentially over.

The HD DVD camp, however, is declaring itself not dead yet. Toshiba, HD DVD’s inventor, started by cutting the prices of most of its players in half; for example, you can buy its basic player, the HD-A3, for $130 online, complete with seven free movies. Blu-Ray players still cost at least twice as much.

Toshiba points out, furthermore, that every HD DVD player has an Ethernet jack for connecting to the Internet (something that Blu-ray players will start to get only this year), and that HD DVD movies are never “region encoded” (copy protected so that they can be played only in one region of the world), as Blu-ray discs are. The HD DVD consortium is about to introduce an enormous marketing blitz, in print and on TV, that stresses how not yet dead it is.

Callous as this may sound, the world would be a lot better off if HD DVD would just go ahead and die; the lingering format war is keeping the whole new world of high-def movies on DVD from blossoming.

And some are waiting to see if Internet movie stores will make the whole idea of plastic movie discs obsolete. An effortless, convenient, high-quality, reasonably priced movie-download service is still years away. But its arrival sure would wrap up this whole sorry saga of clashing corporate egos with a nice poetic conclusion.

The simple fact that someone would have to consider NOT being able to enjoy a movie on any of their existing players in the house OR replacing their other existing players to do so is a threat to the success of HD disc.

Why do either when you can just buy the DVD, spend less overall and still enjoy your existing players?

because blu ray >>>>>> DVD

I held off for over a year. A year of drooling over HD pictures in stores. A year of feeling envy for my friends who owned high definition players. The #1 reason:

LACK OF MOVIES!

As an animation fan, I found it particularly disturbing. All there was were a couple of recent kids CG flicks, and no traditional animation at all! Absolutely pathetic!

I eventually caved in, but I still feel a lack of content, and I still buy and watch mostly standard definition DVDs while wishing it was available in high definition.

because blu ray >>>>>> DVD

blu ray >>>>>> DVD on your HDTV
blu ray <<<<<< DVD on all your portable devices (since it won't play)
industry <<<<<< intelligent (since they don't get it :) )

Cost and I don't want to have to download software patches all the time.

I'll wait until it acts like every other commodity I own. You buy it, bring it home, plug it in, and forget about it.

Callous as this may sound, the world would be a lot better off if HD DVD would just go ahead and die; the lingering format war is keeping the whole new world of high-def movies on DVD from blossoming.

I laugh at how easy everyone thinks it is. How about they go sink a couple hundred billion dollars into something and then just throw their hands up in the air and say "I give up."

It's like that 250$ car you put $2500 worth of repairs into. No matter how bad the car is running, you can't just walk away from it anymore. You should have done that from the start.

The studios are the bad guys in the entire thing. Who cares of Sony had a format and Toshiba had a format. If the studios only supported one of them, we would have NO WAR.

If the studios made their desired format choices and STOOD BY THEM, we would have a dual format society and it would be combo players, both, or one or the other for all.

The fact that these studios flopped back and forth (after chosing sides at the start which created this mess) is dispicable. It was a big scam to make some extra cash and dupe their customers. They played both Sony and Toshiba's greed for royalities as a way to make some income.

It's never been about "may the best format win" -- it's been about "how much money can we get out of this mess we've created by chosing opposing sides".

WoW!

I can't believe we have so many "HT enthusiasts" holding out on new technology, especially when you can get into HD DVD for pretty cheap. Even some BR players are getting fairly inexpensive. If many "enthusiasts" aren't jumping in then it makes me think that it really does not matter which format wins the right to become the next laserdisc.


I can't believe the ironic implications of such "HT enthusiasts" with automotive peripherals/environment as the crux of their difficulties in buying into a format. :eek: :o

I laugh at how easy everyone thinks it is. How about they go sink a couple hundred billion dollars into something and then just throw their hands up in the air and say "I give up."

It's like that 250$ car you put $2500 worth of repairs into. No matter how bad the car is running, you can't just walk away from it anymore. You should have done that from the start.

The studios are the bad guys in the entire thing. Who cares of Sony had a format and Toshiba had a format. If the studios only supported one of them, we would have NO WAR.

If the studios made their desired format choices and STOOD BY THEM, we would have a dual format society and it would be combo players, both, or one or the other for all.

The fact that these studios flopped back and forth (after chosing sides at the start which created this mess) is dispicable. It was a big scam to make some extra cash and dupe their customers. They played both Sony and Toshiba's greed for royalities as a way to make some income.

It's never been about "may the best format win" -- it's been about "how much money can we get out of this mess we've created by chosing opposing sides".

I sort of have a feeling this is the case. In reality any one of those Blu-ray studios may say, "The hell with Blu, lets go exclusive to HD, or neutral just to milk some money from that group."

The same can apply to the HD group, so Universal could do the same.

We still need to look at the overall picture and think what would happen if this format "war" keeps going on? One of my co-workers refuses to go Blu because its too expensive, but was almost inclined to go HD because its cheapers, but was confused with all the studios flopping back and forth...

Yes the resolution was higher and image was a little clearer on HD, but over-all, the image that I got on the 58 inch Plasma was fairly comparable to the images produced on 36 inch CRT with component DVD, except it was just bigger, at my viewing distance of about 10 feet or so (I have a Sony 36" Flat CRT - NTSC).

Exactly.

VHS looked great on my 19" TV in the 80's.
LD was plenty for my 27".
I got DVD player for my 36" sony CRT.

Maybe not now, but in a year or two when you buy a nice 60" display for the same price as all your others... you're going to want a next generation format to go with it. Not because Bluray on a 60" TV looks spectacular, but because DVD on a 60" TV looks like crap.

Exactly.

VHS looked great on my 19" TV in the 80's.
LD was plenty for my 27".
I got DVD player for my 36" sony CRT.

Maybe not now, but in a year or two when you buy a nice 60" display for the same price as all your others... you're going to want a next generation format to go with it. Not because Bluray on a 60" TV looks spectacular, but because DVD on a 60" TV looks like crap.

If DVD (SD) on your 60" TV looks like crap, then you need to either buy a 60" tv that does a better job with SD or learn how to adjust your tv set. I haven't yet tried HDM on my new Sony 60" SXRD tv, but I did try it on my Sony 60" LCD rear projection set using a PS3. I rented POTC in both Blu-ray and SD DVD format and compared them. Did I see a difference? Of course as I am fanatical about video quality. Was it a "dramatic" difference? Definitely not. My "old" Sony LCD RP set as well as my new Sony SXRD RP set does an outstanding job upconverting 480i from my Denon 2910 DVD player. It is definitely not HDM quality, but it's close enough that only video fanatics like my son and I (69 years old with better than 20/20 corrected vision) would care enough to bother with HDM. So...don't generalize. Some hdtv's do a crap job with SD DVD, but some like my Sony do a truly great job.

Thank you so much for your comments. I feel better now about what I see. I have a Hitachi 51s500 (fully and professionally calibrated), a Panny RP82 SD w/component going thru an upconverting Denon 3803 and a Toshiba A2 . There is a difference but is not that dramatic. The A2 upconversion is a little better than the Panny thru the Denon.

Maybe I need a better display? :)

I can't believe the ironic implications of such "HT enthusiasts" with automotive peripherals/environment as the crux of their difficulties in buying into a format. :eek: :o

This is an AV forum, not an HT forum. Some people like movies and music so much they even like to watch & listen in more than one location - even at the cost of reduced quality ;)

This is an AV forum, not an HT forum. Some people like movies and music so much they even like to watch & listen in more than one location - even at the cost of reduced quality ;)

The funny part is that when those people say they don't want BD to win in one thread because they dont want to replace all of their car players and laptops, and in the next thread they think both formats can coexist. How will two formats work in that situation?

The funny part is that when those people say they don't want BD to win in one thread because they dont want to replace all of their car players and laptops, and in the next thread they think both formats can coexist. How will two formats work in that situation?

The same way one would work if there was only one. People will decide whether the product is of any value to them and if they want it, they'll buy it, if not they won't.

Couple of thoughts here. One, something being "affordable" does not automatically make it a "buy", right? I mean, there are lots of things I can afford to buy, but choose not to. Why? Value. So beyond being able to afford a $400, my choice to not purchase one is based on value. I do not believe that buying a $400 player that is not even a complete (i.e., not profile 2.0) player yet with all of its java and BD+ glitches worked out represents good value. To be fair, even HD DVD had a bit of work in front of it in the "glitches" department, which is common for new products, they just happened to be a bit further on the development curve.

I have a nice 50" Panasonic plasma TV that I picked up on closeout for $1,700. Nothing that happens tomorrow or a year from now, or three years from now (other than the TV falling off the wall, knock on wood) will make that purchase a bad one. The same holds true of my other flat panel TVs. Better TVs will come along, and I may eventually upgrade my plasma, it is fully functional and will remain so. The same cannot be said of current BD players.

Also, for households with multiple TVs and multiple existing DVD players, its really not as simple as $400. Take our household, we have no less than five DVD players in different rooms (this does not include PCs or portables, btw). So, we're left with a couple of choices: 1) buy five new BD players for about $2,000 and then re-buy them when profile 2.0 players come out, 2) buy a single BD player and then "double up" on media, buying both the BD version and the DVD version of a movie, making each movie a $40 to $45 proposition. Neither of these look particularly appealing. I've already got 500+ DVDs on the shelf, so adding to a collection that will (hopefully) be obsolete in the not too distant future (crosses fingers) doesn't seem like money well-spent to me or my wife.

Again, YMMV, and I can respect that for some people, audio/video stuff isn't just a "like" it's a "need". I get that (I feel that way about cars and motorcycles), so if that's your passion, by all means, jump in. If everything were a logical, rational choice . . . life would be no fun.:D

Yes, I did suspect that for many people, it isn't affordability that's their problem, but rather that they just have this notion of how much a player SHOULD cost, based on how much DVD players now cost after years of price reduction. Several posts seem to confirm this.

I still think that current prices are a steal (as someone else said, earlier in this thread). But you have my sympathy because you have so many DVD players in your house that would ALL have to be replaced by Blu-ray :p I guess some people can't afford HDTV either, as they'd have to replace all those TVs they have in their 4 bathrooms...;)

Saying affordability is not an issue is pretty crazy, especially considering that your average Joe is in debt up to his eyeballs and most are struggling to pay minimum on their credit card. Additionally, with the ability to extract money from from their overpriced houses gone away, affordability is very much an issue, even more so in recession economy with job losses being a real possibility.
If you have to work and save for the toys that you buy, $199 vs. $299 is a pretty big deal for the average Joe (As it should be). And i wont even say anything regarding affording $2000 HDTV on fixed average income (With no funny money that seemed to be the cause of the post dot-com boom).

I laugh at how easy everyone thinks it is. How about they go sink a couple hundred billion dollars into something and then just throw their hands up in the air and say "I give up."

How about if "they" [the electronics industry] never started the war to begin with? How about if "they" never sunk "a couple hundred billion dollars" into two competing formats when "they" knew, from the start, that one or possibly both of the formats (based on the inevitable mess that a format war would create) would definitely fail? Did "they" learn nothing from the DVD Audio versus SACD war?

The electronics industry, themselves, should have decided on one format, from the beginning, rather than putting themselves and us through this "stupid and unnecessary battle between the next generation DVD formats"

It was obvious that the benefits of either HD format is minimal, to the average consumer, compared to the benefits of standard DVDs. The benefits of DVD over VHS was obvious to even a casual consumer (PQ, SQ, features, extras, chapter skip, perfect freeze, compact software, etc. ) ... yet it took ONE unified format and the price of players falling to below $100 before the average consumer converted from VHS to the ONE new format ... DVDs.

Imagine how much longer it would have taken, in spite of the clear advatages, for DVD to prevail ... if there had been competing non-compatible DVD formats with some titles released on only one format and other titles released on only the other format!

The studios are the bad guys in the entire thing. Who cares of Sony had a format and Toshiba had a format. If the studios only supported one of them, we would have NO WAR..

And If my Aunt had b**** she would be my uncle.

I'm mystified by your total exoneration of the electronic industry. "The studios are the bad guys in this entire thing (emphasis added)". You must be kidding. For better or worse, this is a capitalist system. The studios, like all successful business entities, are now trying to take advantage of a weakened eclectronic industry that used very poor judgment in starting this ill-conceived format war.

Of course, the real loser in this ineptly conceived war is the consumer (including many videophiles) who need to wait many years longer than needed before they can confidently buy into the winning HD format. By that time, many will probably be downloading and burning their own HD discs.

If the studios made their desired format choices and STOOD BY THEM, we would have a dual format society and it would be combo players, both, or one or the other for all.

Dual format players would only be a temporay fix and would inevitably fail. And why should the consumer need to pay for dual players? Given the differences in HD-DVD and Blu-ray technology, these players would necessarily be more expensive than equivalent single players. Also, stores and studios which stock and release both Blu-ray are HD-DVD (W.B. was one) are tired of wasting shelf space and money on 2 (3 counting standard dvds) format versions of the same movie.

The fact that these studios flopped back and forth (after chosing sides at the start which created this mess) is dispicable. It was a big scam to make some extra cash and dupe their customers. They played both Sony and Toshiba's greed for royalities as a way to make some income.

Yes, and the multi-billion dollar electronic industry wasn't smart enough to figure out this was inevitably going to happen? The end result should have been obvious ... from the start ... to this industry, who you appear to hold blameless?

This argument reminds me of the old "three card monte (shell game)" I watched as a kid in Times Square. The victim was usually some poor easily-scammed tourist. It also was "a big scam to make some extra cash and dupe their customers." However, the "shell games" were illegal and cheated poor unsuspecting tourists.

The conduct you're attributing to the studios, for better or worse, is legal and is part of the rough and tumble that multibillion dollar industries play. The electronics industry deserves what it's getting because what's happening was so predictable. They were inept enough to start this war and now they and we [the consumers] are reaping what they sowed.

It's never been about "may the best format win" -- it's been about "how much money can we [the studios] get out of this mess we've created by chosing opposing sides".

Yes, it's entirely the studios fault. :rolleyes:

How about if "they" [the electronics industry] never started the war to begin with? How about if "they" never sunk "a couple hundred billion dollars" into two competing formats when "they" knew, from the start, that one or possibly both of the formats (based on the inevitable mess that a format war would create) would definitely fail? Did "they" learn nothing from the DVD Audio versus SACD war?

Very good post, but IMO, DVD Audio versus SACD wasn't a war, it was a skirmish. ;) The amount of people actually interested in HD audio is infinitesimally smaller than the amount of people interested in HD DVD or Blu-ray, which isn't saying a whole lot in itself.

I have been 100% blu-ray till now, and will continue to be. Why should i spend 100 dollars on a HD DVD player that is about to become obsolete? Why should i have it connected to my system when the exclusive movies from their studios will be producing movies on the format i prefer in no time? Its just silly to throw good money away on a bad format that is on the way out. There are about 35 "hd dvd exclusives" that i will buy as soon as they hit Blu-Ray, and i cannot wait for them to come out. One format to rule them all.

Why should i have it connected to my system when the exclusive movies from their studios will be producing movies on the format i prefer in no time?

In no time? No one knows for sure. I too would guess that eventually Uni and Para would succumb and end this whole thing. But in no time? It depends on your definition of no time. I would guess it would still be several months to a year. Those two studios seem to be pretty die hard HD DVD exclusive.

In no time? No one knows for sure. I too would guess that eventually Uni and Para would succumb and end this whole thing. But in no time? It depends on your definition of no time. I would guess it would still be several months to a year. Those two studios seem to be pretty die hard HD DVD exclusive.

With nothing announced other then old titles they planned already, and Day/Dates, both studios are doing the completely bare minimum ATM for HD DVD. If i have to wait months, so be it, owning those movies in HD isnt the end of the world to me, i have patience and have no issue waiting. Both studios will be releasing on Blu-Ray this year, one sooner then the other. Honestly, its just silly to think otherwise. The most important fact of the matter is, now all the major Blu-Ray insiders have signed NDA agreements regarding Universal and Paramount and are no longer allowed to talk about them in public. They wouldnt have that if there wasnt a contract signed. Just give it time guys, we'll all be enjoying the full HD experience on a single format soon enough and we'll all be rejoicing. Cant wait to get The Mummy on Blu-Ray!

I own a Tosh A30 and as for BD, I will never buy a Sony product again so with that...

1. Full 2.0 complaint name brand BD player.
2. Player price point below $250 (preferably $200)
3. Better QC on authoring the discs (see POtC frame issues)
4. Media price lowered.

I will love to go neutral but the BD camp needs to make the product "Consumer Friendly" :D

I bought HD DVD in Jan 07 and have been loving the decision...I'm buying Blu Ray TODAY :D, approx a year later (going with the Panny BD30, will use analog outs into my Onkyo 605 for now due to the LFE issue via HDMI and hope a for a FW fix soon enough).

I'm buying BR today because I happen to have the extra money, no other reason, I WISH it was due to some new major must have movie I'd love hitting now - but thats not the case, in fact, after spending a few days checking out the rating/tier and released thread, I'm actually not excited much at all, saw merely 9 movies I'm anxious to own (Ratatouille, Black Hawk Down, First Blood, The Patriot, Superbad, Halloween, Usual Suspects, A Few Good Men, Rocky)...HD DVD, the format with less support, had a much better selection for my tates, no debating it. Really, I'm buying Blu today in "hopes" of what will come out tomorrow (I love many Warner titles - they forced my hand), like say, Master And Commander, etc.

Feels good to no longer have to care about which studios release what - if its a movie I love, I can buy it, though in light of the Warner move, for the next few months, I'll buy the BR version (but again, not seeing much coming on the horizon to make that an issue anyway - sadly).

Yes, I did suspect that for many people, it isn't affordability that's their problem, but rather that they just have this notion of how much a player SHOULD cost, based on how much DVD players now cost after years of price reduction. Several posts seem to confirm this.

I still think that current prices are a steal (as someone else said, earlier in this thread). But you have my sympathy because you have so many DVD players in your house that would ALL have to be replaced by Blu-ray :p I guess some people can't afford HDTV either, as they'd have to replace all those TVs they have in their 4 bathrooms...;)


Ah yes, there's the rub, huh? I can replace a single TV with an HDTV in my house with virtually no impact to: my other non-HDTVs (yes I still have a couple) and/or my media viewing habits, can't I? Even in the aforementioned case of replacing all of my DVD players with BD players, I likely would not replace the non-HDTVs with HDTVs (having every TV be an HDTV isn't a mission or quest for me).

The real rub here is that I have a significant "investment" (not the right word, as it is certainly not appreciating in value) in SD media (probably north of $10k or so) that far outweighs any investment I have in HDTVs or potentially BD players. So any "solution" to my media problem needs to be flexible enough not to: create a need to re-buy all players immediately, cause me to need to buy both a SD and HD version of a movie so they can be watched on any/all players in the house or car, and not cause me to need to re-buy the player later when the format spec is complete. And it needs to do (or not do) these things while being reasonably priced. To your point, even if Toshiba does capitulate and fold up its HD DVD shop, it has already damaged BD in that it has set expectations for what producing and selling a HDM player does cost (i.e., HD-A35 at $232). At least I know that's the case for me, I suppose I shouldn't speak for others in that regard. But certainly for me, having seen how inexpensively it has been done, is clearly a factor. I have not interest in padding Corporate pockets if I don't have to -- this is a zero sum game, every dollar I spend is no longer mine and belongs to the Corporate entity that collected it from me.

I bought HD DVD in Jan 07 and have been loving the decision...I'm buying Blu Ray TODAY

Again, the OP was asking for comments from people who don't already own hidef players. There are plenty of other threads where you can justify your purchase.

Again, the OP was asking for comments from people who don't already own hidef players. There are plenty of other threads where you can justify your purchase.

heh ^ :rolleyes: ...Sorry if something in my post offends ya, you'll live I'm sure - just made it clear I've decided to go purple with my adding BR today and why.

REF: "Why haven't you bought a Blu-ray or HD DVD player yet?"

....I'm buying Blu Ray TODAY , approx a year later (going with the Panny BD30, will use analog outs into my Onkyo 605 for now due to the LFE issue via HDMI and hope a for a FW fix soon enough).

I'm buying BR today because I happen to have the extra money, no other reason, I WISH it was due to some new major must have movie I'd love hitting now - but thats not the case, in fact, after spending a few days checking out the rating/tier and released thread, I'm actually not excited much at all, saw merely 9 movies I'm anxious to own (Ratatouille, Black Hawk Down, First Blood, The Patriot, Superbad, Halloween, Usual Suspects, A Few Good Men, Rocky)..etc.

While my original post in this thread was valid (costs of getting into HD are difficult to justify) I also thought of additional barriers to entry.

My family, like most, enjoy having some kind of A/V entertainment. When I was a kid that entertainment came from going out to the movies or watching TV. Either one was cheap and accesible. Today, we can do those two things as well as throw in a DVD, surf the web, play video games, do some work on the computer, get a pay-per-view show on cable, etc.

While HD media is interesting, it's just one possibility of many and it competes for people's entertainment time budget. If my family can attain the same level of entertainment for the evening with a video game as it can with HD media, why buy into HDM?

I could certainly afford to get a decent HD setup but I have a hard time seeing the actual "value" of such a move.

In the Feb3-9th issue of HMM, there's an interesting feedback from a writer to the magazine on pg 12 by Bob Johnson, owner of Video World.

Bob Johnson has a few real world issues that people who have to sell these toys face and that perhaps is food for thought that we as enthusiasts should think of. While we may not care about the logistics of the format war, the reality in the trenches is that these stores are in the business of delivering goods for money. They have a business to run, as opposed to musings about a hobby on our end.

The retailers see this about servicing and keeping their customers, and if they can't retain their customers, they won't be in business very long anyway, so this format war will make them uncomfortable in many ways, of which some points come across in his letter.

Bob has several interesting insights on this, ignoring for a moment the sales units he sees (something not allowed to be discussed here), I pick the Venturer player as a good item to discuss. Toshiba managed to convince Venturer to sell their brand of players, and it appears Bob Johnson ordered a few for his stores. Apparently, Bob was upset that one week after he got his Venturer shipment, Toshiba did the $99 sales, which destroyed any chance of him moving those players.

When we sit back and think about it, a retailer stuck with a shipment of players that he can't sell is extremely not funny, and not only is this bad for the retailer, it is bad for Venturer, it also reflects badly on Toshiba for damaging ability of their partner to sell a product.

Remember the cheers around this forum when the Venturer player was eventually announced? Now look around and check who here went out and bought one? Anyone?

Remember the cheers around this forum when the Venturer player was eventually announced? Now look around and check who here went out and bought one? Anyone?

Neo, I don't think die hard HD supports are going to purchase that player especially since Toshiba decided to lower the price for its player. Perhaps J6P will go into Walmart and find it cheaper than the A3 and that will sway him/her to purchase the Venturer?

In the Feb3-9th issue of HMM, there's an interesting feedback from a writer to the magazine on pg 12 by Bob Johnson, owner of Video World.

Bob Johnson has a few real world issues that people who have to sell these toys face and that perhaps is food for thought that we as enthusiasts should think of. While we may not care about the logistics of the format war, the reality in the trenches is that these stores are in the business of delivering goods for money. They have a business to run, as opposed to musings about a hobby on our end.

The retailers see this about servicing and keeping their customers, and if they can't retain their customers, they won't be in business very long anyway, so this format war will make them uncomfortable in many ways, of which some points come across in his letter.

Bob has several interesting insights on this, ignoring for a moment the sales units he sees (something not allowed to be discussed here), I pick the Venturer player as a good item to discuss. Toshiba managed to convince Venturer to sell their brand of players, and it appears Bob Johnson ordered a few for his stores. Apparently, Bob was upset that one week after he got his Venturer shipment, Toshiba did the $99 sales, which destroyed any chance of him moving those players.

When we sit back and think about it, a retailer stuck with a shipment of players that he can't sell is extremely not funny, and not only is this bad for the retailer, it is bad for Venturer, it also reflects badly on Toshiba for damaging ability of their partner to sell a product.

Remember the cheers around this forum when the Venturer player was eventually announced? Now look around and check who here went out and bought one? Anyone?

just to clarify, wal*mart did the $99 sale on toshiba hd-a2 hd dvd players. toshiba didn't do the sales -- they were sales on toshiba products. wal*mart most likely lost money on every hd-a2 they sold. best buy, sears, and circuit city either matched wal*mart's price or lowered the price of their hd-a2's by more than 50% off the list price (of $299.99 at the time).

just to clarify, wal*mart did the $99 sale on toshiba hd-a2 hd dvd players. toshiba didn't do the sales -- they were sales on toshiba products. wal*mart most likely lost money on every hd-a2 they sold. best buy, sears, and circuit city either matched wal*mart's price or lowered the price of their hd-a2's by more than 50% off the list price (of $299.99 at the time).

they also hope you will visit the movie isle and purchase several movies
since a good deal was offered on the players according to disc sales numbers
that did not happen.

heh ^ :rolleyes: ...Sorry if something in my post offends ya, you'll live I'm sure - just made it clear I've decided to go purple with my adding BR today and why.

No need for sarcasm and your opinions don't offend me. If the thread stays on topic it is pretty good in that we (non owners) obviously have the interest and probably the money, yet choose not to buy. Manufacturers and retailers could probably learn a whole lot from this thread.

The conventional wisdom (and Toshiba's strategy) has been that price is the barrier yet many responses only identify it as one factor. In all the analysts reports over almost two years I don't think I've seen a single reference to portables and multi-DVD households as issues. Again, the conventional wisdom believes it is a 2 format question but the people in this thread are saying it is 2-3 formats, times the number of locations you require a player, that is a significant issue.

I'm fortunate to have a home theater and the means to afford both formats but I would rather buy a reasonably priced Reon upscaler instead of hidef dvd if they can't get to one format - for all the reasons discussed here.

Saying affordability is not an issue is pretty crazy, especially considering that your average Joe is in debt up to his eyeballs and most are struggling to pay minimum on their credit card. Additionally, with the ability to extract money from from their overpriced houses gone away, affordability is very much an issue, even more so in recession economy with job losses being a real possibility.
If you have to work and save for the toys that you buy, $199 vs. $299 is a pretty big deal for the average Joe (As it should be). And i wont even say anything regarding affording $2000 HDTV on fixed average income (With no funny money that seemed to be the cause of the post dot-com boom).

Yes, it would be crazy. But actually, what I said was that affordability isn't an issue for *many* people. i.e. those who can afford HDTVs can afford a player. However, it is an issue for those who cannot afford such items, as you rightly say.

Officially purple!!! Now bring on the movies, all studios! =)

Got the Panny BD30!!! About to start hooking it up. A friend at Best Buy did me a huge favor...I mentioned the 20% off reward zone coupon and that I would've been in to buy my player before the 28th if I checked my mail more often, lol....he said "don't worry about it, you're only a couple days short, I'll take care of ya"...he sure did! He did a competitor price match of a hundy less!!! I returned the favor as best I could by using the extra money to buy 2 more flicks - I left with the player, Black Hawk Down, First Blood and The Patriot!! :)

Need a HDTV first. I have purchased Blu-ray disks. First they were mostly BOGOs, and second to support the Blu-ray format.

My reasons for not buying a HD-DVD or BR player-

1) Price of HD movies too high. Easier to find DVD for less money. Examples of prices at Amazon- Miami Vice DVD $9.99, HD-DVD $27.95; Mallrats DVD $9.99, HD-DVD $19.95; Spider Man 3 DVD $14.99, BR $29.95; Rocky Balboa DVD $10.49, BR $26.95.

2) Price of players too high.

3) Possibility HD-DVD and BR will never take off. Might go away like Laserdisc. Maybe there is a third alternative in the future which will win?

4) DVD looks good. Happy with good DVD transfer.

5) Renting DVD is much easier. No Redbox service for BR or HD-DVD. Local rental store has no HD-DVD or BR.

6) Also would like to buy RW unit with tuner to use as DVR. But nothing on market. No reason to buy HD player when I really want something that can work as a DVR and HD player.

How about if "they" [the electronics industry] never started the war to begin with? How about if "they" never sunk "a couple hundred billion dollars" into two competing formats when "they" knew, from the start, that one or possibly both of the formats (based on the inevitable mess that a format war would create) would definitely fail? Did "they" learn nothing from the DVD Audio versus SACD war?

Electronics are built based on features. It was ALWAYS up to the studios to decide what was more important to them.. Special Features or Bitrate/Storage. Obviously many studios decided right from the get go.. but then.. they decided to go back on their commitment and "switch sides". If they had stood by their beliefs instead of being swayed by cash.. things would be different. The studios had the choice to start/stop this. If all the studios banded together instead of "let's do the opposite whatever studio A does" we wouldn't have an issue.


Imagine how much longer it would have taken, in spite of the clear advatages, for DVD to prevail ... if there had been competing non-compatible DVD formats with some titles released on only one format and other titles released on only the other format!

The cheapest hardware with the most titles would have won. And it did. There was other formats.. DIVX for one. LD for another.


I'm mystified by your total exoneration of the electronic industry. "The studios are the bad guys in this entire thing (emphasis added)". You must be kidding. For better or worse, this is a capitalist system. The studios, like all successful business entities, are now trying to take advantage of a weakened eclectronic industry that used very poor judgment in starting this ill-conceived format war.

A HDM player without a movie is useless. The entire business of HDM was/is/will be decided by the studios. Period. How many HD-VMD are selling?


Dual format players would only be a temporay fix and would inevitably fail. And why should the consumer need to pay for dual players? Given the differences in HD-DVD and Blu-ray technology, these players would necessarily be more expensive than equivalent single players. Also, stores and studios which stock and release both Blu-ray are HD-DVD (W.B. was one) are tired of wasting shelf space and money on 2 (3 counting standard dvds) format versions of the same movie.

Twin Fomat, DVD-R/DVD+R, Diesel/Gasoline. There is plenty room for two formats.. but only if the studios supported them. We aren't living in the 80's anymore. Everything is converged. My GPS plays MP3s, my Blackberry does GPS and video, my Xbox plays DIVX videos.

The reason we DON'T have dual format is because it means less money for both companies. Greed drives that decision. Period. It's nothing off a studios back to put two discs out, one format A and one format B. They don't because they have vested interest. They are doing it with DVD and HDM today.


Yes, it's entirely the studios fault. :rolleyes:

It is. They had more power than Sony/Toshiba but they decided to "go the distance".

My only hope is that Paramount & Universal are given stake in HD-DVD to the point they are share holders of a large percentage. Then Sony will fail at dominating and dual format will become the standard. Without 100% of the studios.. nobody is "the format".

If DVD (SD) on your 60" TV looks like crap, then you need to either buy a 60" tv that does a better job with SD or learn how to adjust your tv set. I haven't yet tried HDM on my new Sony 60" SXRD tv, but I did try it on my Sony 60" LCD rear projection set using a PS3. I rented POTC in both Blu-ray and SD DVD format and compared them. Did I see a difference? Of course as I am fanatical about video quality. Was it a "dramatic" difference? Definitely not. My "old" Sony LCD RP set as well as my new Sony SXRD RP set does an outstanding job upconverting 480i from my Denon 2910 DVD player. It is definitely not HDM quality, but it's close enough that only video fanatics like my son and I (69 years old with better than 20/20 corrected vision) would care enough to bother with HDM. So...don't generalize. Some hdtv's do a crap job with SD DVD, but some like my Sony do a truly great job.

There are things you can generalize. The bigger and better your display, the more you'll appreciate the benefits of HDM and see the flaws in DVD. If you take the same picture on a 36" set and blow it up to 60", it's going to look fuzzier at the same viewing distance. Up scaling DVD helps minimize the flaws, but there's only so much it can do. If DVD renders a woman's eyelash as a dark smudge, no amount of scaling is going to bring it back. On a 36" display that smudge will be so small that you wouldn't be able to see it in detail anyway. You assume the detail is there, but you assume you just can't see it. Now blow the image up to 60" and it's big enough that you can see the detail... except it's not there... it's just a blocky smudge. That's all it ever was. That's DVD.

I don't know the specs on your 60" LCD. Was it capably of resolving 1920 x 1080p ? Were the chips aligned well enough that you didn't loose sharpness due to to misconvergence? If not, your TV takes the detail in the eyelash and displays it as a smudge because it's not good enough to resolve the detail HD provides. On a bad TV, DVD and HDM are going to look close. The limit is the TV. You really ought to give Bluray another shot on your SXRD. I'm using a 135" scope SXRD. My DVD player was top notch as well - an RP-82 with SDI upgrade going to a dedicate scaler. Trust me, there is a difference, I just don't think mainstream TV technology has caught up with the quality that HDM offers yet. It will.

So OP, in case you missed my point in all that... one of the main reasons I see for people not jumping in is they haven't bought a display yet that clearly shows the superior picture of HDM vs what they're currently getting with DVD.

Other than that, most of the people I know who don't post here say the format war is what's holding them back.

The simple fact that someone would have to consider NOT being able to enjoy a movie on any of their existing players in the house OR replacing their other existing players to do so is a threat to the success of HD disc.

Why do either when you can just buy the DVD, spend less overall and still enjoy your existing players?

because your not getting tru high def :)

I have purchased some BDs but no player yet because of price.
Babel, Italian Job, All 3 Pirates, Cars, Ratatouille.
Gonna buy The Rock this week.

That has to be the stupiest thing I've read on AVS,if you went red you could be enjoying some of those movies now.

Need a HDTV first. I have purchased Blu-ray disks. First they were mostly BOGOs, and second to support the Blu-ray format.

Another brilliant consumer.
Maybe someday I'll buy a pair of glasses so I can read those books I've been buying.:rolleyes:

That has to be the stupiest thing I've read on AVS,if you went red you could be enjoying some of those movies now.

You are right. If he went HD first he could watch 2 of the 8 movies now. That is stupid.:rolleyes: The new HD DVD slogan "Buy a player and watch one out of every 4 movies!!"

Player quality is of primary important. I'll buy the first good profile 1.1 DB player that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. A good player must have great video (upscaled SD and BD content), have good audio support (at least 5.1 analog) and not be a video game console. Note, if they came out with a ultra quiet video-centric version of the PS3 that had good audio audio support that would be fine. The notion that the PS3 can lose it's place and revert back to being a game console if you push the wrong button is a joke (they need a hard to change physical mode switch to prevent that from ever happening by accident.)

Twin Fomat, DVD-R/DVD+R, Diesel/Gasoline. There is plenty room for two formats.. but only if the studios supported them. We aren't living in the 80's anymore. Everything is converged. My GPS plays MP3s, my Blackberry does GPS and video, my Xbox plays DIVX videos.



You're comparing orange and apples.. Why do not take illustrate you POV with one of the numerous instance in the content business, which are much more relevant to our issue ? Maybe because they don't suit your POV.

We know of a lot of inconveniences of having two competing HDM formats:

If both formats are supported by every content manufacturer, so the content is fragmented and isn't available to everyone => we lose.
Players could be dual-format, making the player more complex and prone to bugs, more expensive => we lose
Publishers have to manage two formats, so they rather limit their use of each format to => we lose
Because of the increase in costs associated with the two formats, a title has to sell more in order to reach rentability so more titles wouldn't be released because of the low probabiity they made money => fewer titles released => we lose
Two different HD reference for each title means having fewer different titles on the shelves => we lose

In our case having two format is just a waste.

Just explain me : Why should we have two formats ? What having two formats brings to the table ? Should we be movie-lovers or format-lovers ?

Only a fool would think both format would coexist forever.
I think you aren't a fool you knowingly made a risky investment, If only you could be a good loser.

I'm one of the many people who are waiting for this format war to come to an end before they invest in HDM, and I'm relieved that one format is finally dominating. The (still to come) official death of one of the two formats will only mean Champagne for people who cares about movies.

Yes, it would be crazy. But actually, what I said was that affordability isn't an issue for *many* people. i.e. those who can afford HDTVs can afford a player. However, it is an issue for those who cannot afford such items, as you rightly say.

Again, I think using the word "affordable" is a bit of a misnomer. Just because someone can come up with the cash (or credit :D) to purchase an HDTV does not mean that they will do the same for HDM. Why? Well, not to beat a dead horse, but being able to afford something is not the same thing as actually buying it -- there is always the assessment of "value" in there somewhere. With large, flat panel TVs I'd argue the PRIMARY reason people buy them is because they're large and flat, not because they're HD. Or said differently, even if you don't believe the primary reason for purchase is form factor (which has HUGE W.A.F.), it would be very hard to refute that size and form factor are significant influences upon the purchasing decision. In that context, "affordability" is a function of value that consumers perceive, and that value is far from soley a function of how great a HD picture is (as evidenced by the industry wide estimate that fewer than 1 in 3 people are actually watching HD on their HDTV -- which includes me, btw). With that as the background, it isn't hard to see (at all) why HDM catching on is risky, or if it does catch on, will be slow (and slowed even more by high prices for players and discs).

Price is my main concern too but I want one that will play DVD Audio and SACD. I have a fair amount of titles and I really like the sound.

We know of a lot of inconveniences of having two competing HDM formats

Similar to the number one selling game Guitar Hero for XBOX 360, PS3, PS2, Wii?


Just explain me : Why should we have two formats ? What having two formats brings to the table ? Should we be movie-lovers or format-lovers ?

Only a fool would think both format would coexist forever.
I think you aren't a fool you knowingly made a risky investment, If only you could be a good loser.

Correct. Eventually one will be destined for the "top selling" and the other will be the niche. Very similar to how the Wii vs. the PS3 now. I am for 100% neutral across the board. If BDA believes their product is SO much better than the other, why not let it happen?


I'm one of the many people who are waiting for this format war to come to an end before they invest in HDM, and I'm relieved that one format is finally dominating. The (still to come) official death of one of the two formats will only mean Champagne for people who cares about movies.

That's smart to wait.. but in the reality the only format dominating right now is DVD. Bluray sales didn't increase 10 fold after the Warner announcement. They are growing at the same rate they always have been.. very slowly. The only thing the Warner announcement did was stop HD-DVD owners from buying more movies which artificially makes the numbers look like Bluray is kicking a**. The reality is. Sales are only down for HD-DVD, they aren't up for Bluray.

Similar to the number one selling game Guitar Hero for XBOX 360, PS3, PS2, Wii?



Correct. Eventually one will be destined for the "top selling" and the other will be the niche. Very similar to how the Wii vs. the PS3 now. I am for 100% neutral across the board. If BDA believes their product is SO much better than the other, why not let it happen?



That's smart to wait.. but in the reality the only format dominating right now is DVD. Bluray sales didn't increase 10 fold after the Warner announcement. They are growing at the same rate they always have been.. very slowly. The only thing the Warner announcement did was stop HD-DVD owners from buying more movies which artificially makes the numbers look like Bluray is kicking a**. The reality is. Sales are only down for HD-DVD, they aren't up for Bluray.

They are up. They have showed a huge growth between from now to a year ago. BD is at a better pace then DVD was.

i think the public knows more about hd discs than they did the first 2 years when dvd
came out the players are certainly cheaper and the movies are close in price.

They are up. They have showed a huge growth between from now to a year ago. BD is at a better pace then DVD was.

Not even close. DVD was competing with VHS. Tapes had to be rewound, they jambed in machines, they wore out, player reliability was terrible, tracking problems... need I go on?

They are up. They have showed a huge growth between from now to a year ago. BD is at a better pace then DVD was.

If you consider the home media market then compared to the home media market now, you can see why that means absolutely nothing.

Reasons:
1: 32" HDTV - while difference is clear - hardly matters. On larger sets would be more inclined.
2. I want a recorder not just a player
3. Portability can take standard dvd anywhere and play.
4. Not ready to upgrade other sets and corresponding dvd players

That has to be the stupiest thing I've read on AVS,if you went red you could be enjoying some of those movies now.

That way he could get a better price on the disks due to the BOGOS which many people have claimed will die with the format war, And he could get a better cheaper player. Of course, unlike you, he didn't buy into a format that is probably not going to survive. Er...Tell me again what was stupid about this?

...Eventually one will be destined for the "top selling" and the other will be the niche. Very similar to how the Wii vs. the PS3 now. I am for 100% neutral across the board. If BDA believes their product is SO much better than the other, why not let it happen?....

Why not let what happen?

First, as I've said, I don't own an HD-DVD or Blu-ray player for the reasons I've already stated. I've been an early adopter with a lot of HT equipment, but not this time.

Second, I totally disagree that: "Eventually one [Blu-ray or HD-DVD] will be destined for the 'top selling' and the other will be the niche." As I've already said the studios aren't going to produce 2 HD versions of the same film and stores aren't going to allocate shelf space to stock 2 (3 counting std. DVDs, which will be around for years to come) HD versions of the same movie.

Under your scenario, HD-DVD will become the "niche" format, unless they pull an unprecedented Hail Mary. Niche implies that HD-DVD has specific appeal that's so overwhelming that it will keep the format alive even after Blu-ray becomes the undisputed "top selling" format. The problem with this analysis is that HD-DVD has no such niche appeal.

Also, once Blu-ray becomes the undisputed "top selling" format (and maybe before that -see below), HD-DVD will lose the support of Paramount and Universal. Those studios make millions of dollars each year selling and renting their films. Once they fully understand that they've back the losing format, they will switch to the winning (top selling) format.

I don't understand your niche hypothesis?

A cheap HD DVD player ($100) with an interesting movie bundle might still be a good buy - you would get an okay DVD player with up-scaling features, some bundled movies, and you will be able to buy a few more HD DVD titles cheap in the near future. You will then have a piece of consumer electronics history in your collection. In a few years it will be considered vintage - kinda like owning a Laser Disc player.

This is a reference to a report in Variety. HERE (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/hd-dvds-fall-like-dominoes/?ref=technology)

Nothing has been announced, but Variety is reporting that the last two major studios backing HD DVD — NBC Universal and Paramount — are opening the door for a switch to Blu-ray. These studios have commitments to release some discs this year in HD DVD, but both have ended their exclusive commitment to that format, which is backed by a group led by Toshiba.

This comes after Warner Brothers, which had been issuing movies in both formats, decided to go exclusively with Sony’s Blu-ray format. Variety also reports that retailers may also put pressure on Universal and Paramount to back Blu-ray. Last summer, Blockbuster decided to go with Blu-ray only.

So what appeared to be a stalemate may, with one relatively small move by Warner, now turn out to be a quick victory for Sony. The fight between the systems has hurt studios, electronics makers and consumers. And I suspect a winner — any winner — will be welcomed by all sides (except Toshiba and Microsoft, a key partner).

This is a reference report by Variety. HERE (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/hd-dvds-fall-like-dominoes/?ref=technology)

Come on, Dude. That was like a month ago. Universal and Paramount already denied that they're switching.

For the guy that wanted portability, I hear you. This is why HD DVD combo discs were a good idea in theory despite all the A/V enthusiasts complaining about them.

Okay Dude. Universal and Paramount's "Current plan is to support the HD DVD format. Currently." What do you expect them to say?

If you don't believe both company's switch is inevitable well what can I say. However, your response to my post was very though-provoking.

...Universal and Paramount already denied that they're switching.

Similar to the number one selling game Guitar Hero for XBOX 360, PS3, PS2, Wii?

Similar to having to buy several consoles to be able to enjoy the best exclusive games. What a joy, i'm sure the hardcore gamers love to buy lots of console.

Correct. Eventually one will be destined for the "top selling" and the other will be the niche. Very similar to how the Wii vs. the PS3 now.

That is justified by the specificities of each console, two very different concepts and end-user experiences, addressing different audiences with different content. Each of them brings some something different on the table.

End-user wise Blu-ray and HD DVD offer more or less the same thing, having two format is nothing more than a annoyance consumers have to deal with.

but in the reality the only format dominating right now is DVD. [..] Sales are only down for HD-DVD, they aren't up for Bluray.

As long as there are two competing formats, there will be doubt in consumers mind, they won't buy HDM players and titles.

IMHO the transition from DVD to HDM will only begin when we have only one HDM format.

IMHO the transition from DVD to HDM will only begin when we have only one HDM format and full-spec, bug free player prices drop below $200.

Fixed it for you. :D

Seriously though, HD DVD dying off won't be the only thing that needs to happen. The "benefits" of HDM aren't big enough for most buyers to warrant a significant (if any) price premium.

I second that ;)

Pretty much price.....I don't want to own two players either to see all my hi-def discs...not worth it to me.

When software hits the low levels I can buy all my movies and the kid movies our fam likes, AND there is one format with many brands to choose from and sub $100 each pricing, I'll start dipping into the HDM waters...untill then I have zero need for HDM on disc.

Why buy until profile 2.0?
Price and reliability will grow over time.

I don't need to buy a lot of movies
I wasted plenty of money on laserdiscs.

Most movies today are generally terrible
I prefer TV. It's better these days.

Hollywood stinks, bad people generally.
Why give pinheads more money.

Actually, the niche market scenario will probably become a reality, but not in the way described earlier.

1. Blu-ray wins the HD format war against HD-DVD.

2. HD-DVD titles are no longer released because that format will be dead.

3. Blu-ray becomes the niche market for video/audiphiles because, as I and others have said, the differences between Std. DVDs and HD DVDs are not significant to the average consumer.

4.The real challenge is to convince the market that a 12cm diameter plastic disc is still the way to go. The physical format of the disc is decades old, and not as practical as technologies on the horizon.

5.The longer this war lasts, the longer consumers will stand on the sidelines and watch. The average consumer is in no hurry to buy new players and replace their old 12cm discs with new more expensive 12cm discs.

6. We already have PPV HD movies on demand. Depending on your provider, these movies don't look that much better than DVDs and aren't great advertisements for buying a new HD player and HD discs; at least not to the average consumer.

7. If the wait is long enough, download services and/or solid state disk technology will become viable. These new technologies will compete with Blu-ray as the HD consumer format.

8. So Blu-ray may never attract more than a niche market.

...
Correct. Eventually one will be destined for the "top selling" and the other will be the niche. Very similar to how the Wii vs. the PS3 now. I am for 100% neutral across the board. If BDA believes their product is SO much better than the other, why not let it happen?

...
Well, the studios have preferences and they are the ones making the movies, so we are at their mercy. I don't think any major studio is interested in long-term neutrality. They want a single HD format as soon as possible. It is only a matter of which format gets critical mass.

Format neutrality solves nothing. That puts us back in Beta versus VHS mode. The whole problem with the format war is that eventually there is a loser. I think that you at least agree with that part. Why would consumers buy into the format war when eventually one side will lose -- and it could be the side that they invested in.

7. If the wait is long enough, download services and/or solid state disk technology will become viable. These new technologies will compete with Blu-ray as the HD consumer format.

8. So Blu-ray may never attract more than a niche market.


All valid points except that I think downloads are more a competitor of Netflix/Blockbuster rentals. The CD industry has proved that consumers still need and want a physical media format. Even with over 100,000,000 iPods and countless other MP3 players in the wild, and easy access to free music online, the selection of music CD's in BB or CC haven't decreased much in the last 10-15 years. With all the bandwidth issues in broadcasting and streaming HD video, combined with the high prices of digital storage, I doubt that downloads will be of that much impact to either HDM format for around 7-10 years. DD will almost definately be the next format after Blu-ray/HD DVD, but it won't compete or replace them.

Actually, the niche market scenario will probably become a reality, but not in the way described earlier.

1. Blu-ray wins the HD format war against HD-DVD.

2. HD-DVD titles are no longer released because that format will be dead.

3. Blu-ray becomes the niche market for video/audiphiles because, as I and others have said, the differences between Std. DVDs and HD DVDs are not significant to the average consumer.


3.

Organization behind the different HDM format aren't going for a becoming the niche format of the somewhat-philes, but to be the successor of DVD.

Mass-adoption = more royalties = more profits. They'll do whatever it takes to generalize their format.

Like it did with DVD, BOM of HDM players will progressively decrase. Players and titles come down in price, near DVD level. At a 300 $ price (or lower) PS3 will sell a lot next fall, increasing installed base and massively increasing customers awareness.

They will buy HD, if not because of the perceived increase, because it became the current technology and they won't buy the obsolete one.

At one point in time the price difference will lower as to be not signification anymore, and a bit later you won't find plain DVD players.

Why buy until profile 2.0?
Price and reliability will grow over time.

Because you are primarily interested by the movie ?
AFAIK players of every profile allows you to enjoy the movie at its best.
And PS3 will seemingly be upgradable to profile 2.0.

Currently you can find reliable players, and yes price will go down.

They are up. They have showed a huge growth between from now to a year ago. BD is at a better pace then DVD was.

I hear this a lot. Where are the links to this info? (I really would like to see it- not baiting anyone, just curious). What I have seen includes games released on BD as well as movies, so it is not a valid comparison as there were no game systems using DVD as a medium in 1997-98. Anyone have links for just movie sales?

I did get caught up in all the hype of HDM and here is what the non purchasers see.

It is costly.
Its buggy, both the players and disc's and that makes it a cost consideration versus improvement and hassles.
The improvement isn't all that great versus a good quality upscale job which is much cheaper to be had.
Things loom on the horizon that will doom optical disc's or be much more convenient.
The side whom has a cost advantage still suffers from over priced disc's and is losing studio support.
The other side has left itself and out to continue when and if the movie side of it dies.

After having many types of similar devices etc that were better than what they were to replace, they have learned a lesson.

I sold my interest in HDM, made a small profit enough so to buy another HDM device that will only act as a up converter and a replacement to the Oppo I had which went belly up.
I would suggest to someone based upon cost only to buy a Toshiba A30 just for its up converting ability versus price/pq against the rest of the up converting market.

With all the increased resolution of the video to 1080P and lossless sound, this has been the best update to my theater since Dolby Digital 10 YEARS ago.. 6X resolution vs 480i and Uncompressed audio has brought the video (and audio) to a point where I was able to go to a very large screen and still have a razor sharp image (14 Ft wide).

HD DVD / BD has infused new life into this hobby so that we can finally all have reference quality video and sound at home...

3.

Organization behind the different HDM format aren't going for a becoming the niche format of the somewhat-philes, but to be the successor of DVD.

Mass-adoption = more royalties = more profits. They'll do whatever it takes to generalize their format.

Like it did with DVD, BOM of HDM players will progressively decrase. Players and titles come down in price, near DVD level. At a 300 $ price (or lower) PS3 will sell a lot next fall, increasing installed base and massively increasing customers awareness.

They will buy HD, if not because of the perceived increase, because it became the current technology and they won't buy the obsolete one.

At one point in time the price difference will lower as to be not signification anymore, and a bit later you won't find plain DVD players.

This is the 10 year plan. It seems unlikely that HDM can take 10 years to reach this level of acceptance, before better alternatives take off. Let's face it a 5" x 8" box still a huge space to store a single movie. In 10 years I will be able to buy HD movies via some other more efficient means for much less. Perhaps a 15Tb external drive preloaded with 500 movies; pay a small free to unlock each movie? Or a 100gb flash chip preloaded with several movies? In 10 years I'll will probably have 100+Gb wireless Internet and can download? Maybe something like a better version of that Clickstar service that never quite took off?

Organization behind the different HDM format aren't going for a becoming the niche format of the somewhat-philes, but to be the successor of DVD.

Mass-adoption = more royalties = more profits. They'll do whatever it takes to generalize their format.

Like it did with DVD, BOM of HDM players will progressively decrase. Players and titles come down in price, near DVD level. At a 300 $ price (or lower) PS3 will sell a lot next fall, increasing installed base and massively increasing customers awareness.

They will buy HD, if not because of the perceived increase, because it became the current technology and they won't buy the obsolete one.

At one point in time the price difference will lower as to be not signification anymore, and a bit later you won't find plain DVD players.

Bon Jour, although since you're in Paris, I should probably say Bon Soir.

user4avsforum already made some of my points for me. :)

I know the "Organizations behind the different HDM formats" aren't trying to play to a niche market; however, people and Organizations don't always get what they want. These Organizations have bungled this next generation format badly, for reasons I've already stated. The format war has slowed any hope of mass adoption by many years, perhaps a decade, as user4avsforum indicates.

In the mean-time, flash chips, solid state disks, download services and more will have a chance to develop. HD formats are just too similar in size and features when compared to DVDs to interest the average consumer. Also, dvds won't become "obsolete" because both HD formats also play all std. DVDs. So it's not like the sitaution when DVD took over from VHS and VHS really did become obsolete. As long as Blu-ray keeps playing std. DVDs, the average consumer won't buy new Blu-ray discs to replace their old DVD versions of the same movie.

Older DVDs (12 mos and older) are already very cheap. At Fryes, most are about $9.99. I always see sales where some great movies are $4.99 to $7.50 at BB. It will be many years before HD discs hit that relative price point. Maybe the studios can manipulate the prices so the new HD versions of a movie are the same price as the std. versions, but I don't see the profit in them doing that ... unless it gets some people to buy new HD players. However, the price of those HD players must also be significantly reduced or the average consumer is not going toss their old player to buy a new HD player.

This information is about 4 months old. HERE (http://www.data-storage-today.com/news/Samsung-Breaks-Flash-Chip-Barrier/story.xhtml?story_id=110008UGMWOS)

Imagine a small memory card that can store 80 DVD-quality movies or 32,000 songs. That vision of the portable memory future drew closer this week when Samsung announced it had developed the world's first 64-gigabit NAND flash memory chip.

Samsung's new 64-gigabit flash chip marks another data point on the curve of flash memory density versus size. Samsung noted that this is the "eighth consecutive year that the density of memory has doubled and the seventh straight year that the nanometer scale has improved for NAND flash since the 100-nm 1-Gb NAND chip was developed in 2001.

With all the increased resolution of the video to 1080P and lossless sound, this has been the best update to my theater since Dolby Digital 10 YEARS ago.. 6X resolution vs 480i and Uncompressed audio has brought the video (and audio) to a point where I was able to go to a very large screen and still have a razor sharp image (14 Ft wide).

HD DVD / BD has infused new life into this hobby so that we can finally all have reference quality video and sound at home...

+10

Reasons:
1: 32" HDTV - while difference is clear - hardly matters. On larger sets would be more inclined.
2. I want a recorder not just a player
3. Portability can take standard dvd anywhere and play.
4. Not ready to upgrade other sets and corresponding dvd players

Very good and valid points on each one. I would not be in the HD market if my old 55 inch Toshiba non-HD set had not folded on me last summer.

Very good and valid points on each one. I would not be in the HD market if my old 55 inch Toshiba non-HD set had not folded on me last summer.

another reason with peoples older sets failing and purchasing newer tv's
will help the sales of the players in the long run.

+10

I don't think anyone is disputing "thebland's" point, but he isn't an average consumer. In fact, his post probably helped make my point.

Ask him how much he paid for his state-of-the-art HT equipment. He will probably tell you it's none of your business :D, but he has his own HT room, a FP, incredible speakers and kick-ass subs. Also, the last time I checked, he had a 120" screen. He's a true audio/videophile. As he said, HT is his "hobby". ["thebland": That's a compliment. :)]

He can appreciate the differences in SQ and PQ between std. DVDs and HD DVDs. Most average people have inexpensive equipment and won't be able to hear the differences between standard DD 5.1 and DD TrueHD. They're more likely to see a difference, but it's not a difference the average Joe cares about. :(

I don't think anyone is disputing "thebland's" point, but he isn't an average consumer. In fact, his post probably helped make my point.

Ask him how much he paid for his state-of-the-art HT equipment. He will probably tell you it's none of your business :D, but he has his own HT room, a FP, incredible speakers and kick-ass subs. Also, the last time I checked, he had a 120" screen. He's a true audio/videophile. As he said, HT is his "hobby". ["thebland": That's a compliment. :)]

He can appreciate the differences in SQ and PQ between std. DVDs and HD DVDs. Most average people have inexpensive equipment and won't be able to hear the differences between standard DD 5.1 and DD TrueHD. They're more likely to see a difference, but it's not a difference the average Joe cares about. :(

I bet it was FAR cheaper than my bosses 28ft inboard boat ($52,000). Not to knock water sports, but I could buy a lot of other stuff for that kind of money!

I bet it was FAR cheaper than my bosses 28ft inboard boat ($52,000). Not to knock water sports, but I could buy a lot of other stuff for that kind of money!

I bet "thebland" spent far far more than $52K on his dedicated kick-ass HT room. I'm sure all the equipment alone was more than that. :)

I bet it was FAR cheaper than my bosses 28ft inboard boat ($52,000). Not to knock water sports, but I could buy a lot of other stuff for that kind of money!


Nope...I would've saved quite a bit of money buying the boat... But where I live, boats are good only 3-4 mos out of the year.

i haven't bought an HD DVD or Blu-Ray player yet because I want my first player to have TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding, respectable analog capabilities (speaker distance, adjustable crossover, etc.), and a realta-level upscaling solution for SD DVD.

the Denon seems like it will have all of the above, at a $1999 MSRP price point. i may buy it, i may wait a number of months for comparable players to emerge and inject competition at the high end. i will say i am getting tired of waiting, so the denon it may very well be.

I bet "thebland" spent far far more than $52K on his dedicated kick-ass HT room. I'm sure all the equipment alone was more than that. :)

The nut spent far less and still enjoys the HD experience in both video and audio. I never did have much truck with DVD.

Haven't bought yet because:

-I resent paying to be a Beta tester. Give me a fast, reliable machine, that loads quickly, plays all my discs, doesn't need a firmware upgrade, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and I might buy. (I spent over $1000 on my first DVD player, and have always been an early adopter. I've learned my lesson.)

-I can't walk into my local video store and rent a Bluray or HDDVD disc on impulse, and I'm not interested in owning a library of them. How many times can you watch the same movie? (You don't have to answer that.)

- Standard DVD's look great on my 2.35 ratio 105" diameter screen, so I'm not burning to make the transition. (I would appreciate being able to sit closer to an HD image, however.)

With the newest players, and internet rentals, I'm closer to making the jump, but still think the technology is not quite there.

I bet it was FAR cheaper than my bosses 28ft inboard boat ($52,000). Not to knock water sports, but I could buy a lot of other stuff for that kind of money!

There's people who spend more than that on just speakers.

There's people who spend more than that on just cables ! :D

i haven't bought an HD DVD or Blu-Ray player yet because I want my first player to have TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding, respectable analog capabilities (speaker distance, adjustable crossover, etc.), and a realta-level upscaling solution for SD DVD.

the Denon seems like it will have all of the above, at a $1999 MSRP price point. i may buy it, i may wait a number of months for comparable players to emerge and inject competition at the high end. i will say i am getting tired of waiting, so the denon it may very well be.

Doesn't it bother you that it won't be Profile 2.0?

I haven't bought because:

1) the formats aren't fully set
2) more media is needed
3) glitches - i.e. resume function
4) hedging by big companies - Sony with Home
5) no interoperability with car, 3 other bedrooms, friends
6) good possibility of optical format being abolished - solid state seems better
7) value doesn't seem to be there - VQ limit to my 1080i Sammy plasma, AQ - no 7.1 encoding or mot much
8) want a recorder with cheap media
9) scared its going to be a niche like SACD/DVD-A or laserdisc....this just doesn't seem like an evolution....it's just a change from one 12cm disc to another
10) premium for renting at BBuster, no Redbox support, etc.

Have I missed anything? Sony has a history of failed formats and studios jumping ship from side to side makes me queasy. What if they decide to just go downloading only or to flash drives?

Quite honestly, there is a lot of insecurity among CE manufacturers...how do you expect potential customers to feel secure in their purchase?

There's people who spend more than that on just cables ! :D

Yes, but that's a tiny minority in AVS. Just from hanging around in some of the other forum threads, I suspect the people in AVS who spend more than 52k on speakers for their HT is not a small number. I spent less than 1/4 of that on speakers across two HT rooms, and some of my friends already think I'm insane, but compared to people here, I'm one of the cheap guys.

But I also have friends who swear by vacuum tube amps, and there's no reasoning with them. I'd rather spend more on displays than speakers, and definitely more on speakers than amps/receivers. Cabling is the lowest on my priority, but I generally like to get cheapest thickest cable I can find.

Doesn't it bother you that it won't be Profile 2.0?

yes.

Purchased already:

Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD Standalone Player
Xbox 360 HD-DVD Addon used on both Xbox 360 and HTPC for HD-DVD
LG GGC-H20L HD-DVD/Blu-Ray combo drive for HTPC

Future Purchase, conditionals:

A) Christmas time frame for PS3 down to $300 or less including PS2 backwards compatibility and 60 gig minimum HD.

or

B) Standalone Blu-Ray 2.0 profile Panasonic player for less than $200.

or

C) PS3 down to $200 not including PS2 backwards compatibility.

Tapes had to be rewound, they jambed in machines, they wore out, player reliability was terrible, tracking problems... need I go on?

Hmmmm . . ..

I find this curious. Not that I want to go back to a tape format. No way!!

But, in truth tape was FAR more forgiving than optical discs. I can recall doing all sorts of things to "salvage" a tape.

For one, you could always fast-forward past a bad spot.

When things got really bad, like a bad jamb, you could open the cassette and splice the silly thing with clear tape! Yes, I actually did so on several occasions. :p

A single bad spot on a DVD however and you can be totally out of luck. Player freezes and you can't even eject the thing at times without shutting the player down.

DVD can be totally unforgiving.

And, for recording, my old VHS tapes had certainly deteriorated but were still playable. When I burned them to some poor DVD-R media however, the DVDs, while they played fine after I burned them, were completely toasted in a year's time. Wouldn't even load in the machine. Can't see that happening with a tape.

That aspect of DVD drives me nuts from time to time and makes me yearn for tape. :)

sure wish oppo would combine a blu-ray with their 980 i'm sure it would sell like
the onkyo rec's probably go on backorder.

Remember the cheers around this forum when the Venturer player was eventually announced? Now look around and check who here went out and bought one? Anyone?


Well, I did.

But then Warner piped up and I took it back without even plugging it in. :)


When we sit back and think about it, a retailer stuck with a shipment of players that he can't sell is extremely not funny, and not only is this bad for the retailer, it is bad for Venturer, it also reflects badly on Toshiba for damaging ability of their partner to sell a product.

Well, it's only been a few weeks since I bought, and returned, the Venturer. Now I see Wal Mart is still trying to sell them for $199 while the Toshiba A3 is for sale at Futureshop for $150.

Actually it's a bit complex.

Yes, I feel BD players are far too expensive . . . and the profile 1.1 and profile 2.0 to come irks me.

I haven't actually seen a hi-def DVD on my 100" 720p FP setup, or 46" 1080p LCD yet but I sort of feel "How much better can it be?" Now, I don't doubt it will be "better" but I doubt the difference will be sufficiently compelling to buy into this marketing mess . . . at ANY price, quite regardless of how low it might be.

There really aren't that many movies available yet. I should not have to ask myself, "Gee. I wonder if that title will be released on (whichever format)?"

In fact, the concept of some movies only being available on format A and others only on format b is faintly preposterous to me.

There is another reason too.

Add my name to the list that feels the industry truly deserves to have its rear end kicked from here to forever for this war! I don't feel like rewarding them with my cash.

Actually it's a bit complex.

Yes, I feel BD players are far too expensive . . . and the profile 1.1 and profile 2.0 to come irks me.

I haven't actually seen a hi-def DVD on my 100" 720p FP setup, or 46" 1080p LCD yet but I sort of feel "How much better can it be?" Now, I don't doubt it will be "better" but I doubt the difference will be sufficiently compelling to buy into this marketing mess . . . at ANY price, quite regardless of how low it might be.

There really aren't that many movies available yet. I should not have to ask myself, "Gee. I wonder if that title will be released on (whichever format)?"

In fact, the concept of some movies only being available on format A and others only on format b is faintly preposterous to me.

There is another reason too.

Add my name to the list that feels the industry truly deserves to have its rear end kicked from here to forever for this war! I don't feel like rewarding them with my cash.

This "war" is rather a pathetic one, IMO - it only favors the money sacks, nobody else and they only fight to be able to maintain higher prices at the end.
If every studio would be releasing on both format then it would very quickly drive down the prices on the HD DVD side - in fact HD DVDs should be priced very close to DVDs already due its cheaper cost. The only eraons they are priced like BD discs is GREED. Studios' GREED, nothing else.

Reasons:
- Bought HD A3, cancelled due to Warner's announcement
- BD players too expensive

Thanks Warner for ending this format war. Because of you I can finally adopt HDM. Oh wait nevermind, just caused more uncertainty for an affordable player (HD-DVD) and kept HDM prices out of my reach (BD).

I want ONE fully functional machine that plays ALL the HD titles that I'm interested in. And I want that one machine to cost less than $250. So I wait.

I want ONE fully functional machine that plays ALL the HD titles that I'm interested in. And I want that one machine to cost less than $250. So I wait.


Bottom line....folks that haven't bought so far are simply uncomfortable with HD DVD.

It's cheap, so any enthusiast can afford it. But those on the fence (like in this thread) still won't touch it with a 10 ft pole...

Blu Ray is too expensive....so, they wait......(and missout on some great HD).

Bought an A3 at Wal Mart black Friday sale. I'm happy with it and the quality of HD DVD movies. Also I can burn HD movies I shoot of my family on inexpensive DVD-R.

I have not (yet) bought BD because they are still too expensive, I want profile 2.0, and the movies that are currently out are not compelling enough to overcome the cost. And I want a reasonably priced BD authoring and blank media combination which is not available today.

But I will buy BD eventually.

I would like to get a blu ray player, but I'm going to wait until they are $150, which was the price point that made me get into DVD back in 1999. Until then, I'll just either get cheap HD-DVDs, or watch upconverted SD DVDs.

Just bought an HD-A35. I had $600 to spend from several sources, and was duly tempted by the Blu-Ray players, but being an engineer, I don't like products that are in midstream, couldn't see spending $4-600 and having to re-buy in a year or two.

I was going to skip the whole HDM deal and just buy a Vizio 26" HDTV for my kids's DVR, but then HD-DVD player prices dropped by a lot, so at $269, the upconversion ability and the existing number of titles convinced me. I needed a new DVD player anyways (have about 400 titles), so given the good upconversion on the A35, I went with that. So far so good, I have about 20 HD-DVD titles, they play well with my system (1080p Vizio, Sony DTG-800), so I am happy. Just saw an upconverted Moulin Rouge which looked great, not as good as Blu or HD-DVD, but is it available in either?

I would gladly go with a Blu player (almost did) but the library of titles would have to go far beyond what is out currently. 90,000+ DVD titles vs. 400+ on Blu or 400+ on HD-DVD?

I am enthusiastic about HD, so the extra money spent on the HD-A35, but there are very good upconverting DVD players w/HDMI on sale at Costco for less than $90. If I had trouble justifying spending the money, most people won't do it.

I'd say the sweet spot is > 20,000 titles in HD (Blu or HD-DVD), good players at less than $150, Discs for < $18, backwards compatibility and a VERY good promotional story - not just "you're dumb if you don't". The time window I think is less than four years, otherwise solid state, downloads will swamp this technology.

I think BD are reasonably priced. I'm waiting for one that will play all my SACD and DVD-A discs. I really don't want another piece of equipment (or should I say my wife doesn't)! I don't have high expectations of that happening.

Just bought an HD-A35. I had $600 to spend from several sources, and was duly tempted by the Blu-Ray players, but being an engineer, I don't like products that are in midstream, couldn't see spending $4-600 and having to re-buy in a year or two.

I was going to skip the whole HDM deal and just buy a Vizio 26" HDTV for my kids's DVR, but then HD-DVD player prices dropped by a lot, so at $269, the upconversion ability and the existing number of titles convinced me. I needed a new DVD player anyways (have about 400 titles), so given the good upconversion on the A35, I went with that. So far so good, I have about 20 HD-DVD titles, they play well with my system (1080p Vizio, Sony DTG-800), so I am happy. Just saw an upconverted Moulin Rouge which looked great, not as good as Blu or HD-DVD, but is it available in either?

I would gladly go with a Blu player (almost did) but the library of titles would have to go far beyond what is out currently. 90,000+ DVD titles vs. 400+ on Blu or 400+ on HD-DVD?

I am enthusiastic about HD, so the extra money spent on the HD-A35, but there are very good upconverting DVD players w/HDMI on sale at Costco for less than $90. If I had trouble justifying spending the money, most people won't do it.

I'd say the sweet spot is > 20,000 titles in HD (Blu or HD-DVD), good players at less than $150, Discs for < $18, backwards compatibility and a VERY good promotional story - not just "you're dumb if you don't". The time window I think is less than four years, otherwise solid state, downloads will swamp this technology.


Thanks, I forgot to add that one as well. BR and HDDVD are rolling out at a pace and schedule like Sandisc and other memory, flash and harddrive makers are going to fold up their tents and go home. They aren't. What worries me is they aren't willing to take the losses and the plunge to ensure mass adoption of HDM. And because the CE manufacturers aren't willing to nor are the studios (currently hedging with downloads everywhere), I'm not willing to lay out good cash chasing what could still very likley be a niche. I already did it with SACD....not again! :D

What will you all do now? I am waiting for that rumored 120GB PS3, but even that is hella pricey! Sucks, we won't see $150 players for a long time...

Having sat on the sidelines for quite some time waiting for a victor, I'm guessing I'll still be sitting for the near future, unless I happen to buy a PS3...

As many have indicated, my display is the primary reason. I have an older 42" EDTV, and I told myself I couldn't justify being an early adopter until getting the 50" HDTV... Since I went back to school, that may be later rather than sooner. In a way, it ended up being a plus though since it forced me to sit on the side lines, as I tend to be an early adopter...

At work today I was talking to a few guys about the format war.

Which in itself is amazing, but I guess last night the local news stations mentioned the format war ending, so now they are interested in buying Blu Ray.

However after I told them that the cheapest player is $400, or they could buy a PS3 which is also $400, they lost interest.

I'm wondering what would have happened if HD DVD had won, and I would have told them that they could pick up a player for $150.

It seems that the average consumer was waiting for the format war to end, and I think the average consumer would be buying up Blu Ray to go along with their HDTVs. But apparently, from what I've seen, they just aren't willing to spend $400.

I hope Blu Ray takes this opportunity to work even harder at becoming the next mainstream format. I hope they just don't sit on their laurels and think that people will now pay what they want.

At work today I was talking to a few guys about the format war.

Which in itself is amazing, but I guess last night the local news stations mentioned the format war ending, so now they are interested in buying Blu Ray.

However after I told them that the cheapest player is $400, or they could buy a PS3 which is also $400, they lost interest.

I'm wondering what would have happened if HD DVD had won, and I would have told them that they could pick up a player for $150.

It seems that the average consumer was waiting for the format war to end, and I think the average consumer would be buying up Blu Ray to go along with their HDTVs. But apparently, from what I've seen, they just aren't willing to spend $400.

I hope Blu Ray takes this opportunity to work even harder at becoming the next mainstream format. I hope they just don't sit on their laurels and think that people will now pay what they want.
what people are missing is toshiba would not have sold any players at a loss
if they would have won.

what people are missing is toshiba would not have sold any players at a loss
if they would have won.

A question for that is, wouldn't they make their money back from royalties and other software shares?

At work today I was talking to a few guys about the format war.

Which in itself is amazing, but I guess last night the local news stations mentioned the format war ending, so now they are interested in buying Blu Ray.

However after I told them that the cheapest player is $400, or they could buy a PS3 which is also $400, they lost interest.

Had a very similar conversation over lunch today. My co-worker (who works in I/T) was happy to hear that he could now "safely" buy into 'Hi-Def' (his words, not mine). The conversation quickly turned to "How much?". I didn't get the "four" in $400 out of my mouth and his jaw dropped. His comment was something to the effect of "I'll wait until Vizio makes one." (He has a Vizio 42" HDTV that he picked up for right around $900 on sale somewhere.) When I asked him what he thought he should have to pay he said (get this) "a hundred bucks". Based on that, I thought I might turn the conversation to disc prices, so I asked him "What do you pay, on average, for your DVDs?" His reply was that he pays "$17 for new releases at Wal-Mart during their first week of release . . . but usually more like $11 or $12." When I told him Blu-ray discs were "around" $20-$25 on average the wind totally came out of his sails.

I realize this is purely annecdotal, but I don't think its atypical. Players are going to have to be cheap, and discs are going to have to be only slightly more expensive that what we have today for folks to adopt BD the way they've adopted DVD.

A question for that is, wouldn't they make their money back from royalties and other software shares?
in order to make hd players capture the market a lot of players have to
hit the shelves and if there is no or little profit how do you think that will
go over with their shareholders not to mention what part of the company
would you rob from to cover the losses.

Had a very similar conversation over lunch today. My co-worker (who works in I/T) was happy to hear that he could now "safely" buy into 'Hi-Def' (his words, not mine). The conversation quickly turned to "How much?". I didn't get the "four" in $400 out of my mouth and his jaw dropped. His comment was something to the effect of "I'll wait until Vizio makes one." (He has a Vizio 42" HDTV that he picked up for right around $900 on sale somewhere.) When I asked him what he thought he should have to pay he said (get this) "a hundred bucks". Based on that, I thought I might turn the conversation to disc prices, so I asked him "What do you pay, on average, for your DVDs?" His reply was that he pays "$17 for new releases at Wal-Mart during their first week of release . . . but usually more like $11 or $12." When I told him Blu-ray discs were "around" $20-$25 on average the wind totally came out of his sails.

I realize this is purely annecdotal, but I don't think its atypical. Players are going to have to be cheap, and discs are going to have to be only slightly more expensive that what we have today for folks to adopt BD the way they've adopted DVD.

The cost of BR players and titles needs to drop and drop fast. Players need to be a most $150.00 and titles at most $2-$3 more than the SD DVD counterpart. Technology move fast these days and new ideas or formats do not have the luxury of years like DVD did. Everyone I have talked too in the last year or so...although interested in HDM...change their minds when they here what the cost is....my girlfriend and family say they see how nice HDM are but when they see the $25.00-$35.00 price tag on movies they turn to me and have that "your crazy" look on their face.

I was originally a HD-DVD supporter and up until recently held off on going Blu...but after getting my PS3 and having had about 2 weeks of comparing BR to HD-DVD I can safely say that the "better" format won. By better I mean...I had no issue playing any movies I shoved into the PS3...compared to the 50/50 chance I would have of a movie crashing or locking up in my A30. For better or for worse Sony and company played "the game" better and won. By better I do not mean that BR looked or sounded better than HD-DVD...in that respect they are identical.

I still think BR has a LONG way to go before it is even close to surpassing DVD and being accepted by the masses. Sony has the ball now...curious to see if the score a TD or have a long drive only to end with a field goal.

Final profile solution kept me at bay for along time. I picked up a PS3 on the RUMOR that the PS3 would support profile 2.0 and the RUMOR that it would support DTS-MA output.

It's only a $400 gamble now and I believe I could sell it to some wide-eyed gamer fanboy if it don't work out as rumored.

The PS3 is the better poison at the moment. Now I can sit on those $15 blu-ray disc sales and playstation RUMORED movie downloads.

I paid $300 for my PS3. I don't know what everyone else's problem is.

I'm wondering what would have happened if HD DVD had won, and I would have told them that they could pick up a player for $150.

why do you think toshiba sold their player $150 ?


It seems that the average consumer was waiting for the format war to end, and I think the average consumer would be buying up Blu Ray to go along with their HDTVs. But apparently, from what I've seen, they just aren't willing to spend $400.

most of them surely. like i know very few people who spent 400$ for a DVD player. anyway prices will decrease and attain a pricepoint acceptable by your colleagues. that's how CE works isn't it.

I hope Blu Ray takes this opportunity to work even harder at becoming the next mainstream format. I hope they just don't sit on their laurels and think that people will now pay what they want.

companies behind blu-ray didn't invest so much just to please a few HD enthusiast. they are going after the big bucks and for this they need to make BR a popular format.