For years now, I've been driving M&K SS150 THX speakers along with 4 of their surround tripoles thru a few large Parasound amps (total system wattage into 4 ohms along with the two powered M&K subs is 2,630 watts), all being controlled with a Lexicon MC-1 in 7.1 mode. My primary use is for video playback........DVD and HD Sat. I am totally pleased with the set up and use Logic 7 exclusively.

I am now considering purchasing a Blu-Ray player, however, I will not be able to listen to the new audio formats that is available on Blu_ray due to the limitations of the MC-1.

Due to my current financial situation, I cannot spring for a newer Lexicon product. I have not heard the newer audio formats on Blu-Ray to do a fair comparison, so my question is this:

If I want to hear the newer audio formats, I will have to downgrade to a lessor processor or go with a MUCH lower powered receiver than what my current seperate set up has. Is it worth it to do this for these new formats, or would I be happier with what I currently have. Again, I love the logic 7 processing, but have not compared it to the new formats.

Stay with your logic 7 and get a player with analog outs to feed your Lexicon.

I never hurts to wait.

If you are pleased now you, will continue to be pleased by it.

Upgrades cost...

The Lexicon is an excellent piece. And I know this is not what you want to hear, but the new audio codecs are head shoulders above even 1.5MB/s DTS. I just watched David Gimour's Remember that Night last night and the 24/48 5.1 TrueHD mix was truly 5 star. If it were me I would look at the Onkyo processor in their professional line to replace or supplement your Lexicon. It has built in decoding for all of the new codecs.

Edit: If your Lexicon has 5.1 inputs then as another poster suggested you can always use a player with analog outputs. I use a Panasonic BD10 with my Rotel 1068 and am very happy with the results.

Nope. The Lex does not have 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs. Wish it did.

Nope. The Lex does not have 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs. Wish it did.

That's a bummer. Hard to believe a high end unit without analog inputs.

I couldn't imagine life without Logic 7 either. A Lexicon would be great, but my H/K 635 is pretty capable.

Remember that that Lexicon can only do so much with the source that it's given.

Here's what I would do if I were in your shoes, money being an object and all (it's even more of an object for me...)

1. Keep your Lexicon and suffer with DTS 1.5 for now.

2. Save your pennies

3. When the time comes, ebay your Lexicon. You should be able to get 5 or $600 for it for the rest of the year, I would think.

4. Then grab one of these...

Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Both Dolby & DTS displayed @ CES a couple of new HK AVRs that included the new HD codecs of Dolby Digital + & True Audio and DTS HD & Master Audio... Also I recall looking @ the rear panels they included more HDMI inputs and a very kool remote control..
(from pg. 58 of the 645/745 thread, link below)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=679113&page=58

(Rubs hands together)

Sweeeeet

This could finally be the year that HDM really comes thru.

Then there's this idea...

Paste the following in an ebay search...

Lexicon DC-1 DC-2 MC-1 8 chan analog bypass upgrade

Feedback looks astounding!

I asked him a question regarding the -10db LFE and whether he addresses it. I'll let you know what he says. Of course I encourage you to ask him anything you want as well!

EDIT: I also found his home page and you can buy a DIY version from him. Personally, I think I would pay the extra dough to have it done by a pro...

http://switch-box.com/Lexicon_analog_bypass.html
.

When faced with a need for 5.1 Analog bypass, I opted to get a (Pro) Meitner Switchman pure analog multichannel preamp/switcher in lieu of replacing/upgrading my pre/pro. I now run the Dual Format player, Universal Player, and Preamp/processor 5.1 analogs to the Switchman and let the Switchman do the "primary" switching. This approach has the side benefit of significantly upgrading the preamp stage for music (or HT for that matter) playback when bypassing the pre/pro (I doubt any pre/pro out there today matches the Meitner preamp stage or any "pure analog" preamp stage).

It's been awhile but I'm sure there are still some multichannel analog preamp solutions still out there. When I was shopping, there was the Meitner, McCormack MAP-1, RC audio ?, C-J tube MC preamp ($$$$$), Theta... Even Sony had one for a while.

This way you keep your Lexicon for DD/DTS playback. I'm curious how Lexicon's next-generation logic-7 will eventually work with 24/96 5.1 PCM/TrueHD/DTS HD MA soundtracks ?

My suggest is this. Get the BD player and see if you enjoy the sound using S/PDIF connection. I think 90% of the people, and 95% of the ones not reading this forum :D, fall in that category. You will get a huge picture quality boost for very little money. The incremental audio quality is very small, if you had them level matched. Set your player to bitstream out and select DD or DTS and you don't get double compression and fidelity will be equal to slightly better than what you are hearing now.

By the way, my first processor was DC-1, then I upgraded to MC-12B, and then to Anthem. These upgrades can get really expensive! I also have two M&K subs which the Lexicon could drive independently from my LFE sub but sadly, the new D2 does not!

Thanks for the input guys, but I guess like everything else, the more answers I get, the more questions I have.

Looked at the new Onkyo/Integra processor (DTC9.8) that was suggested above by jeahrens. Looks like it will do everything and Secrets of Home Theater gave it a great review. It's an option. Just wonder how it will sound with the new codecs versus DD or DTS that I am currently getting thru the MC 1. Is it THAT much of an upgrade in sound quality?

Sketcha, I looked at that 8ch mod you suggested. Problem is, is that it bypasses all the internal speaker settings like distance and such, so I'm not quite sure how that would work, but I'll do a bit more digging. Modding a $4000 pre/pro kinda gives me the willies lol

And amirm, is the incremental audio quality really "very small" when level matched as you say when you compare the new codecs thru a lessor pre/pro versus DD or DTS thru the MC 1?

Sketcha, I looked at that 8ch mod you suggested. Problem is, is that it bypasses all the internal speaker settings like distance and such, so I'm not quite sure how that would work, but I'll do a bit more digging. Modding a $4000 pre/pro kinda gives me the willies lol
1. I don't mean to be rude, but that is no longer a $4,000 pre/pro. Both ebay and Audiogon show it to be worth around $600. But I can understand your sentiment.

2. I believe you may be able to manually set the distances and such in your player.

EDIT: O.K., I just checked the Panny BD 30 manual and yes, you can adjust both size and distance of all 7 speakers.
.

And amirm, is the incremental audio quality really "very small" when level matched as you say when you compare the new codecs thru a lessor pre/pro versus DD or DTS thru the MC 1?
The "enjoyment quotient" for movie sound is definitely really small.

Let me put it this way. A high-end processor like yours used to be in its days, is going to set you back $6K+ and most are behind times without HDMI/advanced codecs. For that kind of money, you could buy a projector, or very large flat panel. Both will give me more enjoyment than lossless audio.

When HD DVD first came out, I refused to get a new processor as I had just gotten the $12K Lexicon which lacked HDMI input so I listened to it using S/PDIF. I used that for about a year and still enjoyed a tremendous boost in my viewing pleasure of HD movies. And keyword here is “enjoy.” The top thing interfering with enjoyment of a movie is the soft video coming from a DVD and MPEG-2 artifacts both of which is fixed in new formats. The sound was never a bother to me for movies. Are you bothered by the sound fidelity of the movies you watch today in standard def? If not, then stay with it.

AVS tends to magnify differences which in real-life, may not be a priority for people.

Finally, let me say that for music, then you want to get the best you can. But you are not going to play music with your blu-ray player as there are scant few titles available.

Both my Toshiba HD-A1 and Panasonic BD10 allow for speaker levels and distance/delay. So even if you decide to upgrade your Lexicon you will not loose this ability. You will however be at the mercy of the bass management of the player, which I am guessing will not be as good as what the Lexicon offers.

The "enjoyment quotient" for movie sound is definitely really small.

Let me put it this way. A high-end processor like yours used to be in its days, is going to set you back $6K+ and most are behind times without HDMI/advanced codecs. For that kind of money, you could buy a projector, or very large flat panel. Both will give me more enjoyment than lossless audio.

When HD DVD first came out, I refused to get a new processor as I had just gotten the $12K Lexicon which lacked HDMI input so I listened to it using S/PDIF. So I used that for about a year and still enjoyed a tremendous boost in my viewing pleasure of HD movies. And keyword here is “enjoy.” The top thing interfering with enjoyment of a movie is the soft video coming from a DVD and MPEG-2 artifacts both of which is fixed in new formats. The sound was never a bother to me for movies. Are you bothered but the sound fidelity of the movies you watch today in standard def? If not, then stay with it.

AVS tends to magnify differences which in real-life, may not be a priority for people.

Finally, let me say that for music, then you want to get the best you can. But you are not going to play music with your blu-ray player as there are scant few titles available.

I think a lot of this completely depends on the person. To me the lossless tracks do indeed add almost as much to the experience as the video. I remember the first time I watched Casino Royale and was immediately impressed by the audio quality. From the title track to the excellent orchestral work on the theme, it far eclipsed any DD or DTS track. I still sit through the credits just to hear the excellent work done on this. The John Williams score on the HD DVD Harry Potter boxed set has never sounded better either. So whether this is worthwhile depends on how much you love the audio that goes along with your video. If you, like me, double dipped just to get the DTS version of a DVD, then I think the lossless audio codecs will be worth every penny.

The "enjoyment quotient" for movie sound is definitely really small.



Ya know, I never realized how good the MC-1 was until I had to send it in for repair and replaced it with an older Sony GX900ES Receiver that had inputs that I could still use my amps along with my powered subs. Going from the MC-1 processing to the Sony processing was like going back to Mono. The difference was pretty dramatic, at least to me. Yeah, I was still getting surround, but the lack of detail, and the lack of dynamics was pretty profound, but I also feel that to most, the difference wouldn't be as great. Example: Ya know those beads that Depp wears in his hair in Pirates of the Caribbean? With the MC-1, every time he moved his head, I could hear them clinking. It almost became inaudible with the Sony.

I just wonder if the difference between the MC-1 and a lessor processor with the new codecs, such as those used in some of the BR players and those in the Integra pre/pro would be as great. Decisions, decisions.

Bottom line. I LOVE my MC-1 playing DD, and DTS logic 7, but only because I have not heard anything that is better.

If you, like me, double dipped just to get the DTS version of a DVD, then I think the lossless audio codecs will be worth every penny.
Put me down for a DTS double-dipper.

:)

Ya know, I never realized how good the MC-1 was until I had to send it in for repair and replaced it with an older Sony GX900ES Receiver that had inputs that I could still use my amps along with my powered subs. Going from the MC-1 processing to the Sony processing was like going back to Mono. The difference was pretty dramatic, at least to me. Yeah, I was still getting surround, but the lack of detail, and the lack of dynamics was pretty profound, but I also feel that to most, the difference wouldn't be as great.

I just wonder if the difference between the MC-1 and a lessor processor with the new codecs, such as those used in some of the BR players and those in the Integra pre/pro would be as great. Decisions, decisions.

Bottom line. I LOVE my MC-1 playing DD, and DTS logic 7, but only because I have not heard anything that is better.
Well then when the time comes, either with the new line of H/Ks, or sooner, pick up an H/K receiver and A/B it with your Lexicon. If you prefer the Lex, send the H/K back and do the mod...

or not.

I would be interested to hear your take on that A/B. My guess is that lossless audio will help bring the H/K along for the win. Now where 2-ch audio is concerned...

But until you move forward with that, at least you will be enjoying HDM video AND better audio through optical.

Some of the guys over on SMR forums have bought the Onkyo/Integra processor to replace or use in conjunction with their Lex's. You might want to head over there for some more real world experience.

The receiver versions of the new Onkyo seem to be having some audio lip sync issues, so you may want to make sure it's not there on the stand alone processor.

I have trouble enjoying compressed audio tracks knowing that there's better quality encoded on the disc. I've spent so much already on the big screen, dedicated room, good speakers, etc. It just seems like a waste to settle for "good enough" with HD video and not follow through and pick up better audio.

I have not tried their products but have read a lot about them. But you could look at emotiva's upcoming processor (LMC-2). It will decode the new audio formats, fairly small profile (4"), and only $699. I was looking at getting it but getting impatient and going to get a Marantz 8002 receiver. It is supposed to be out in the next few months.

You can read about it in their forums. www.emotivaaudio.com

Just a moderately priced suggestion.

I have not tried their products but have read a lot about them. But you could look at emotiva's upcoming processor (LMC-2). It will decode the new audio formats, fairly small profile (4"), and only $699. I was looking at getting it but getting impatient and going to get a Marantz 8002 receiver. It is supposed to be out in the next few months.

You can read about it in their forums. www.emotivaaudio.com

Just a moderately priced suggestion.

Thanks. But the same question crops up again. If I "downgrade" the quality of my pre-pro to get the codecs that the Emotiva has, is it worth the switch? I mean, I understand that being able to decode these codecs is a plus, but I don't think it's the whole picture. The implementation of the decoders and the quality of the engineering and the quality of the parts must also play a part here, no?

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my hands around the concept that a decoder in a $500 blue-ray player, even tho it is decoding the latest and greatest format, could sound as good as an older high-end pre/pro like the MC-1 on DD or DTS. Am I off base on this?

Thanks. But the same question crops up again. If I "downgrade" the quality of my pre-pro to get the codecs that the Emotiva has, is it worth the switch? I mean, I understand that being able to decode these codecs is a plus, but I don't think it's the whole picture. The implementation of the decoders and the quality of the engineering and the quality of the parts must also play a part here, no?

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my hands around the concept that a decoder in a $500 blue-ray player, even tho it is decoding the latest and greatest format, could sound as good as an older high-end pre/pro like the MC-1 on DD or DTS. Am I off base on this?

Go to BB or CC and pick up an elcheapo receiver that will take the lpcm over HDMI. Be sure it has pre outs. Hook it to your amps, listen. See what you hear, you may be surprised. When you are done, take it back. Then make up your mind.

My new Pio 94 receiver is great. It is the single most expensive piece of gear I have ever bought for "audio". Wouldn't trade it for twenty high end pres that wouldn't do the high def audio for HD movies. There is that much difference in the audio.