So after doing some research, obviously not enough, I bought a panny th50pz700u from circuit city a few days ago. I saw the bluray picture on it in the store and i was very impressed. I went and looked up reviews on it- STELLAR! It even was rated the best Plasma around. I had looked at my parents XBR4 but liked the look on the panny better (however I had only ween the panny on bluray) after 3 days of owning it, i realize that its really dim and the contrast leaves alot to be desired on low lit scenes ( I dont have my cable hooked up yet so no HD, only have a 480p dvd at the moment, but still, there is not alot of information to be seen in low lit scenes) I went into best buy tonight and stumbled across the lnt46z1f. OMG- I think it smashes the panasonic. It almost looked like a revolution in displays. I felt sick to my stomach with my less tahn 4 day old "best plasma" at home. I live in a small apartment and holding on to a 50inch plasma box is out of the question. Does anybody know if circuit city will let me upgrade to an ln-t5271f? I mean, if i am paying more moeny for a new tv, would they not try to screw me with a restocking fee? I really am sick to my stomach after seeing this new samsung- my tv just doesnt look good anymore. i wanna throw up.

You're comparing a plasma versus an LCD, of course they'll be different. If you're still within the return policy you should be fine.

bwah

stop complaining. I personally can't live with the drawbacks of lcd TVs.

I did had a phillips was ok ended up with a sony 46v3000 from bj s very happy
now ,get the tv you like before the 30 day s is up...

your tv hasnt even been broken in yet. i thought the same about my plasma too.
but after 100hrs or so of use. the pic got better and brighter.
everyones eyes and views are different! to each, their own.
return it and exchange it for the 5271 and give that a try.

Calibrate it and watch it in hd before you return it. Before I got hd set up I was only watching sd and regular dvd and I thought my panny 42px77u was dim. Not anymore, it looks great on hdtv and hd-dvd with exceptional colours.

I had my Plasma for over a year and sold it and got an lcd, plasma was dark
all in all I like the ldc much better and it was my 4th plasma since they came out and this is my 1st Lcd

Chances are that LCD you saw was cranked up to the highest setting to attract buyers like yourself. The LCD will not look as good in your home, unless you want to be blind. Stick with the plasma, it will look much better.

Chances are that LCD you saw was cranked up to the highest setting to attract buyers like yourself. The LCD will not look as good in your home, unless you want to be blind. Stick with the plasma, it will look much better.

LCD wont look good in your home. Hmmm, this is off my 4671F. Looks fine to me;)
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8178/img3755hs3.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/460/img3727cf3.jpg

Chances are that LCD you saw was cranked up to the highest setting to attract buyers like yourself. The LCD will not look as good in your home, unless you want to be blind. Stick with the plasma, it will look much better.

If given a choice, I'm not sure how anybody would want to buy an LCD over a Plasma.

I've seen LCD tvs and Plasma tvs both in-home and in-store, and the Plasma looked 10X better in both environments.

My friends and family members all own LCD tvs and the HD PQ is not that impressive, and SD is always grainy and almost unwatchable.

They have LCDs because they can't afford a Plasma.

Given a choice, they'd gladly go with a Plasma...

when i got my Lcd home I set it up did not leave it at torch mode my eyes were hirting ,Lcd is truer color Plasma was ok ,till Lcd s got better, I been at the ces in vegas seen them all and I made the change this year and sold my 50 plasma and got my great Lcd very happy now.
Good luck get plsma if you like darkesh pic s I like punch not torch but right tv
i had my plasma in torch mode to fool my self that its good LOL ....
Plasmas are the cheapest of all time now too go look i seen a 60'' for 1999. to 2399. for a pana.and thats ((60" ))

LCD wont look good in your home. Hmmm, this is off my 4671F. Looks fine to me;)
IMG


Don't misunderstand. I was in no way saying that LCDs look bad, some look quite good, since I have owned a couple before moving to plasma. But HDTVs always look different in home enviroment rather than in store. I find that plasma better colors and blacks than LCDs. But i'm going to stop there, since this may turn into an LCD vs. Plasma. By the way, your pictures do indeed look nice.

LCD wont look good in your home. Hmmm, this is off my 4671F. Looks fine to me;)
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8178/img3755hs3.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/460/img3727cf3.jpg

thats a Lcd you cant fool me or its in torch maybe my laptop has a great Lcd screen thats making it look ok ,no it looks good for a Plasma ,are the setting on high and lights off hehe :)

Go with what you like, many people here on this forum say LCD are too brite, don't have the black levels of plasma, or motion is a issue, etc... But, to me plasma are dark and then the agument becomes wait until you get it home, because the lights in the showroom are to bright. I have seen Pioneer and Panasonic plasma in delicate home theater stores with dim lights like you would have at home and the screens are bright enough but they still do not have the pop like a LCDs in the same room.

Having nice brite colors is not a bad thing like you are lead to believe by many on this forum. We all see color different what looks good to you may look bad to me.

So after doing some research, obviously not enough, I bought a panny th50pz700u from circuit city a few days ago. I saw the bluray picture on it in the store and i was very impressed. I went and looked up reviews on it- STELLAR! It even was rated the best Plasma around. I had looked at my parents XBR4 but liked the look on the panny better (however I had only ween the panny on bluray) after 3 days of owning it, i realize that its really dim and the contrast leaves alot to be desired on low lit scenes ( I dont have my cable hooked up yet so no HD, only have a 480p dvd at the moment, but still, there is not alot of information to be seen in low lit scenes)

I went into best buy tonight and stumbled across the lnt46z1f. OMG- I think it smashes the panasonic. It almost looked like a revolution in displays.I think maybe something is wrong with your settings because the PZ700U should look better than pretty much any LCD TV. Or it could be your DVD player. I've spent a lot of time with my friend's 46" XBR and also my neighbor's 40" Bravia and i can't either one to look as good as my 42PZ700U. My PZ's contrast ratio is definitely better than those two LCDs, but the LCDs are definitely brighter but that brightness is way too un-natural and intense. I like a bright display (one of the things i love about LCD) and i knew before i bought my PZ700U that it's dimmer than other plasmas but i went for it, and sure enough it seemed a bit too dim at first but once i spent some time with it i found it to be plenty bright enough. I think you should give it more time to get used to it and experiement with your settings. I also think my PZ700U got a bit brighter during the first few weeks as the phosphors aged.

What are your settings?

Have you tried setting the Black Level setting to Dark? There's a thread about settings for this TV, so go there and try my settings since i also prefer a brighter screen and see if they work for you or at least give you a starting point.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=978568

They have LCDs because they can't afford a Plasma.



Most LCD cost more that plasmas for the same size

Plug an antenna into the plasma so you can have HD viewing. Buying any HDTV plasma or LCD without a HD source is waste. If you judge any HDTV based on SD I think you are judging the worst of the television and not the best.

As for the plasma, it can be VERY BRIGHT if you adjust the settings. If you put your plasma in vivid mode you would get a sun tan. Look up calibration numbers for your model. Maybe your model has the best picture with brightness set higher than 0. Once you get the right calibration, it should look better than any LCD on the market.

BTW, most LCD's have native contrast that is 1/5th that of plasma. Don't buy into the dynamic contrast. Look for the native contrast.

So after doing some research, obviously not enough, I bought a panny th50pz700u from circuit city a few days ago. I saw the bluray picture on it in the store and i was very impressed. I went and looked up reviews on it- STELLAR! It even was rated the best Plasma around. I had looked at my parents XBR4 but liked the look on the panny better (however I had only ween the panny on bluray) after 3 days of owning it, i realize that its really dim and the contrast leaves alot to be desired on low lit scenes ( I dont have my cable hooked up yet so no HD, only have a 480p dvd at the moment, but still, there is not alot of information to be seen in low lit scenes) I went into best buy tonight and stumbled across the lnt46z1f. OMG- I think it smashes the panasonic. It almost looked like a revolution in displays. I felt sick to my stomach with my less tahn 4 day old "best plasma" at home. I live in a small apartment and holding on to a 50inch plasma box is out of the question. Does anybody know if circuit city will let me upgrade to an ln-t5271f? I mean, if i am paying more moeny for a new tv, would they not try to screw me with a restocking fee? I really am sick to my stomach after seeing this new samsung- my tv just doesnt look good anymore. i wanna throw up.



If your comparing non-HD content on a non-calb. Plasma to HD on an LCD in torch mode, of course your going to want to throw up. A Mustang will not beat a Honda if you never take the Mustang out of 2nd gear. Now I've seen a bunch of good looking LCD's, even helped a friends father pick out a Top of the line Sony Bravia, but no LCD I've seen can match a Plasmas depth of field and the 3d feel I get watching them. Not for nothing but you may want to get your panel set up correctly and with the right HD sources before you return fine product for a lesser one, all because you don't know what your doing. JMO.

Are there any issues with narrow viewing angles or possibility of burn in for plasmas? just curious.

Are there any issues with narrow viewing angles or possibility of burn in for plasmas? just curious.Not on the Panasonics or Pioneers.

SERIOUSLY. It will get better. I came from a Samsung DLP, which had the BEST pic I had seen (when sitting in the right spot in a dark room) to the 75u Panny. At first I was like "What? This is not so great. Why is it rated SO high?" Then, after about 20-50 hours, the pic got sharper and sharper and better. I was really amazed.

I think it has to do with this. (my theory)
Phosphors in the TV make up the picture. They dim a little with time. SO they design them to be SLIGHTLY too bright at first. This causes pixels to bleed into other pixels. After a SLIGHT dimming over time (not in brightness, but in individual pixel definition) the pixels light up only their area. This creates a great picture AFTER the slight break in time. I am now REALLY impressed with the picture.

thats a Lcd you cant fool me or its in torch maybe my laptop has a great Lcd screen thats making it look ok ,no it looks good for a Plasma ,are the setting on high and lights off hehe :)

say what? Yes its my LCD and for the record the backlight is on 4/10, so its not in "torch mode"

The great thing about LCD is it looks great in bright rooms. So this sunday when everyone comes over to watch the super bowl, I wont have to close all the blinds to have a decent picture.

Don't misunderstand. I was in no way saying that LCDs look bad, some look quite good, since I have owned a couple before moving to plasma. But HDTVs always look different in home enviroment rather than in store. I find that plasma better colors and blacks than LCDs. But i'm going to stop there, since this may turn into an LCD vs. Plasma. By the way, your pictures do indeed look nice.

For the most part, plasmas do have better blacks and colors, but some ofthe high end LCDs that recently came out like the 71F are a new breed. Motion is smooth thanks to 120hz and de-judder, blacks are deep and colors are accurate. Thanks for the comment.

I live in a small apartment and holding on to a 50inch plasma box is out of the question. Does anybody know if circuit city will let me upgrade to an ln-t5271f? I mean, if i am paying more moeny for a new tv, would they not try to screw me with a restocking fee? I really am sick to my stomach after seeing this new samsung- my tv just doesnt look good anymore. i wanna throw up.Hopefully you still have the original packaging, because Circuit City will not accept your return without it. Sorry.

Hopefully you still have the original packaging, because Circuit City will not accept your return without it. Sorry.Actually CC will take it back without the box during their 30-day satisfaction guarantee. They do it all the time.

Actually CC will take it back without the box during their 30-day satisfaction guarantee. They do it all the time.Really? Maybe for TVs. I had one hell of a time getting CC to refund my money for PC memory I purchased w/o it's original package.

For the most part, plasmas do have better blacks and colors, but some ofthe high end LCDs that recently came out like the 71F are a new breed. Motion is smooth thanks to 120hz and de-judder, blacks are deep and colors are accurate. Thanks for the comment.

It's been well documented that even the priciest 120hz LCD's have 25% less motion resolution than your typical plasma. The motion may be smoother than past gen LCD's, but it's still far from plasma smooth.

Really? Maybe for TVs. I had one hell of a time getting CC to refund my money for PC memory I purchased w/o it's original package.
CC will definitely accept returns on TV's without the box... been there, done that. But I'd be very hesitant to return the PZ700U without proper setup, and before viewing it with a good HD feed, as shasta said above. My neighbor's 50PZ700U is awesome.

My neighbor's 50PZ700U is awesome.Likewise for my PRO-150FD :) but there are many Pioneer Kuro PDP owners with splotchy & buzzing displays who will tell you differently. ;)

Thanks for all your comments. I actually did return my panny and got samsung 5271. With the same DVD player, to my eyes, the samsung looks better. I really did want to like the panny, it just didnt happen. the colors seem much deeper on my new samsung than they did on my panasonic. dark scenes have greater detail than they did on the manny. yes, on bluray, which i saw both sets in the store, they both looked incredible, but i had to give the nod to the samsung. I would agree that these new samsungs are a new breed of LCD's. I prefer the samsung 71 over the xbr as well. Circiut city tried to tag team me with there goons while trying to return the set, asking me all these questions about this and that. i simply said I am here for my hassle free 30 day return. thanks. LOL.

Audio I think you made hte right choice. The 71 has blacks that are as deep or deeper than the 75 even if many dont want to admit it. Furthermore it offers you peace of mind you didn' thave with the prior set. I think the xx71 is a better set than the Panny 75 any day of the week...better than a KURO? Now thats debatable...but you're fine, enjoy your set :)

Hope you like your trade-in. One of the biggest problems you have is that your display needs to be calibrated with the device you are using. My plasmas show movies great but look totally dark when playing games on X-Box. Calibrate it and everything looks fine. Remember that next time you have a problem.

haha! i was wondering what you were going to do after being bashed by the plasma patrol here.

glad you got what you wanted! don't let others talk you into liking something when your eyes tell you different.

go lcd!!

hey plasma are good too for some folk if the preferences/conditions are in the right combination.

that samsung 71 is the bomb.

haha! i was wondering what you were going to do after being bashed by the plasma patrol here.

glad you got what you wanted! don't let others talk you into liking something when your eyes tell you different.

go lcd!!

hey plasma are good too for some folk if the preferences/conditions are in the right combination.

that samsung 71 is the bomb.

I read the entire thread, and I did not find any people "bashing" him.

Please quote the posts that you claim "bashed" him.

i think it's more like bashing the idea that anyone can have a differing opinion.

it's not hard to see in this thread and countless others in these forums.

i think it's more like bashing the idea that anyone can have a differing opinion.

it's not hard to see in this thread and countless others in these forums.

So you are the one who is actually doing the bashing, instead of being able to quote anyone else that has done so, like you claimed. You are the one who used the pejorative term; "Plasma Patrol".

The guy started a thread to seek opinions. According to you, apparently only people who prefer LCD were supposed to respond. What would be the point in having a thread on this forum, instead of the LCD forum for to seek such one sided advice.

Cable guy should be here today! Can't wait for my HD! One thing i will definately give to my old panasonic over my new samsung is viewing angle. The picture is definitely not as good if you are watching it on an angle. You really need to be dead center infront of it to get the best picture. oh well, From what I hear, LCD TV's used to be far worse and that the viewing angle on the samsung is very good for an LCD. Still happy overall. Cable guy is running late. ARGH!
Also, i posted here in the Plasma section because that is what I owned at the time. This was my first quality display that was not a CRT. No worries guys- lets all help eachother out with constructive comments- lets not bicker. :-)

Go with what you like, many people here on this forum say LCD are too brite, don't have the black levels of plasma, or motion is a issue, etc... But, to me plasma are dark and then the agument becomes wait until you get it home, because the lights in the showroom are to bright. I have seen Pioneer and Panasonic plasma in delicate home theater stores with dim lights like you would have at home and the screens are bright enough but they still do not have the pop like a LCDs in the same room.

Having nice brite colors is not a bad thing like you are lead to believe by many on this forum. We all see color different what looks good to you may look bad to me.
This is a great post. Do a little research and you'll find that Kodak used to have the most accurate film for camera's because they asked their customers what was most important to them - and they said accuracy. As FujiFilm began to eat up market share they asked their customers why some of them were buying FujiFilm and the customers said the film made the colors brighter. Kodak was shocked - customers WANT accuracy but PREFER inaccuracy. Kodachrome was born.

Same for TV's - the OP thinks he wants accuracy and buys the best plasma for his dollar, but he really doesn't want accuracy - he wants artificial Pop and inaccurate colors. Makes an engineer's job hard when the marketing guys are designing the products, but to each their own.

This is a great post. Do a little research and you'll find that Kodak used to have the most accurate film for camera's because they asked their customers what was most important to them - and they said accuracy. As FujiFilm began to eat up market share they asked their customers why some of them were buying FujiFilm and the customers said the film made the colors brighter. Kodak was shocked - customers WANT accuracy but PREFER inaccuracy. Kodachrome was born.

I don't know who told you this story, but it's not completely true. I was in Photofinishing business from 1983 - 2003 and the main reason Fui was able to overcome Kodak dominance was the advent of one hour processing. Previously your film along with thousands of others would be spliced together and processed. Every frame of processed negative then would be printed on a printer basically calibrated for Kodak film base. Consequently, any film that had different characteristics would be printed poorly. Lot of manufacturer overcame this by tweeking their balance to match Kodak's. Fuji, on the other hand has very different base layer color from Kodak. On one hour machines, since they were mostly built in Japan, had channel for Fuji in addition to Kodak. When properly printed, Fuji produces cooler colors compared to Kodak which use to favor warmer tones and looked more vivrant.

Kodachrome, I believe, was developed from technology basically stolen from Agfa after the WWII. Truth is, Kodak film was always over-rated and not stable. If you have collection of photos from pre 80's, they probably all have shifted in colors.

So you are the one who is actually doing the bashing, instead of being able to quote anyone else that has done so, like you claimed. You are the one who used the pejorative term; "Plasma Patrol".

The guy started a thread to seek opinions. According to you, apparently only people who prefer LCD were supposed to respond. What would be the point in having a thread on this forum, instead of the LCD forum for to seek such one sided advice.

ok fine, i must be in bizarro land where "according to you"

someone who comes to seek advice is told to

"stop complaining" post #3 beginning with "bwah"

is considered an honest opinion.

post #8

"The LCD will not look as good in your home, unless you want to be blind".

i suppose the op or any lcd purchaser wouldn't know how to adjust brightness and contrast settings? and did this poster go over to the op's house and see that in fact he would actually go blind with an lcd?

post# 10

"They have LCDs because they can't afford a Plasma."

his story about "friends and family" ok anecdotal but worth nothing if we are to have good discussion of pro vs con lcd/plasma.

what models did they purchase? which one's looked at? we have no info/facts to grasp. this is supposed to help someone make an informed decision?

so pile on many posts like that that give no specifics whether for one side or the other and you get nothing out of it at all (people who actually posted info to be considered are always appreciated).

did any of them ask about viewing conditions? favorite material? windows,lights,sensitivty to glare,blur,reflections, viewing angle......

i thought i was being descriptive with "plasma patrol" since they offered no real substantive info.
i'm sorry you took it as pejorative.

if not to be helpfull why bother?

i'm happy the op didn't listen to that kind of advice, which is over abundant on this forum. which is why i posted what i did.

ok fine, i must be in bizarro land where "according to you"

someone who comes to seek advice is told to

"stop complaining" post #3 beginning with "bwah"

is considered an honest opinion.

post #8

"The LCD will not look as good in your home, unless you want to be blind".

i suppose the op or any lcd purchaser wouldn't know how to adjust brightness and contrast settings? and did this poster go over to the op's house and see that in fact he would actually go blind with an lcd?

post# 10

"They have LCDs because they can't afford a Plasma."

his story about "friends and family" ok anecdotal but worth nothing if we are to have good discussion of pro vs con lcd/plasma.

what models did they purchase? which one's looked at? we have no info/facts to grasp. this is supposed to help someone make an informed decision?

so pile on many posts like that that give no specifics whether for one side or the other and you get nothing out of it at all (people who actually posted info to be considered are always appreciated).

did any of them ask about viewing conditions? favorite material? windows,lights,sensitivty to glare,blur,reflections, viewing angle......

i thought i was being descriptive with "plasma patrol" since they offered no real substantive info.
i'm sorry you took it as pejorative.

if not to be helpfull why bother?

i'm happy the op didn't listen to that kind of advice, which is over abundant on this forum. which is why i posted what i did.

:cool: Right on man. People need to relax and just enjoy the products. I dont know why the Plasma Patrol ( I think that might be a new official name) has to come in and attack everyone. Its never polite, its always rude and over the top. Let people enjoy what they want, plain and simple.

Now lets go watch our 4.73 HD channels on oversized tvs.

:cool: Right on man. People need to relax and just enjoy the products. I dont know why the Plasma Patrol ( I think that might be a new official name) has to come in and attack everyone. Its never polite, its always rude and over the top. Let people enjoy what they want, plain and simple.

Now lets go watch our 4.73 HD channels on oversized tvs.
They need to validate their decision by deriding anyone with differing opinions, usually a sign of intellectual immaturity.

They need to validate their decision by deriding anyone with differing opinions, usually a sign of intellectual immaturity.

Precisely! That is also what calling those with different opinions derisive names such as: "Plasma Patrol". happens to be.:)

... usually a sign of intellectual immaturity.

Also not so nice of a comment. Why the name calling over differing opinions?

Also not so nice of a comment. Why the name calling over differing opinions?

haha! i was wondering what you were going to do after being bashed by the plasma patrol here.

glad you got what you wanted! don't let others talk you into liking something when your eyes tell you different.

go lcd!!

hey plasma are good too for some folk if the preferences/conditions are in the right combination.

that samsung 71 is the bomb.


You need to have a strong self disciplinary chat with yourself, about engaging in the name calling that you pretend to decry, and also the blatant LCD cheer leading fanboyism that you complain about when it comes from some plasma cheer leaders.

Time for you to start practicing what you are all too eager to lecture others about.:)

So you are the one who is actually doing the bashing, instead of being able to quote anyone else that has done so, like you claimed.



so after i provided you the examples you asked for, rather than being put in your place you just go on to the next criticism you can think of to defend harrassing posters



The guy started a thread to seek opinions.

and got a bunch of non opinions/outright harrassment from plasma fanboys. i commended the op on not being swayed by their fanboyism but you seem adamant on defending this type of poster.

not once did you say it was bad for the plasma fanboys to spread mis-information. do you agree with them? ahh so it's ok when you agree
but since i don't agree with you i must be wrong. look in the mirror my friend.

haha! i was wondering what you were going to do after being bashed by the plasma patrol here.

glad you got what you wanted! don't let others talk you into liking something when your eyes tell you different.

go lcd!!

hey plasma are good too for some folk if the preferences/conditions are in the right combination.

that samsung 71 is the bomb.

This was your first post to the thread, long after several others from both the Plasma and LCD sides had posted their comments, and the OP had already declared what his decision was. Therefore you were just jumping in with your post decision snide remarks just to flame the thread. You are no better than than the posters that you claim to be superior to.:)

i stand by my post 100%

"hey plasma are good too for some folk if the preferences/conditions are in the right combination."

notice i'm not blind to different tastes and situations.

seems you are the one doing the flaming. ;)

Thank you. Your first post to the thread was to "Plasma Patrol" name call, and cheer lead "go lcd". You still stand behind those comments.

I rest my case. You are just as off base as those that you keep whining about.:)

please stop flaming this thread. if you have nothing to say about plasma or lcd you are not welcome.

a dark room is where plasmas look good. in my opinion it needs to be really dark where reflections from the glass is no longer visible. spend time to move lights around in the room so they don't reflect either. if they don't reflect from one seating position they will from another. maybe putting the lamp behind the set will be best or best yet a completely dark room. best is a dedicated theater room but then for a tv that seems overkill.

i've owned 2 plasma's, not high end but good enough to tell what situations will affect pq. sunlight coming through the blinds completely destroyed the picture on the plasma and this is with the blinds shut and objects placed in front of the window to further block light.

i'm no stranger to ambient light affecting pq with my plasmas and beautiful front projector (dila) that gives me a
great 146" wide picture when the lighting situation allows.

the beauty of lcd is that they are bright enough to combat ambient light not to mention the matte screen that gives zero reflections.

You sure are working overtime to try and hide the fact that you called those who were in favor of him sticking with his plasma set; "The Plasma Patrol" and you only joined in after the fact to cheer him having opted for an LCD set. You reveled in the fact that he did not heed those that were in favor of the Plasma, and you delighted in the fact he went for an LCD set. You exulted: "Go LCD" By your own definition; does that not make you a charter member of The LCD Patrol.:D

please look back at every one of your posts and every one of mine and see who is the only one who has provided any information or questions for more information about av.

and by the way, you have shown your true colors by this statement "does that not make you a charter member of The LCD Patrol."

using the same language you criticized me for using exept in my case i directed it to those who either spread mis information or none at all.
but i have been offering info based in fact and real world situations yet still you used a term "you" felt was pejorative.
your downfall is complete.

case closed;)

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...

By your definition of what makes other members of a "Patrol" then you have defined yourself to be a "Patrol member" also. I called no one that name, you did, and how you defined it, and what you said about LCD is what put you into your self created trick bag.:D

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...

you're right.

there's only one person running now. :D