Knoll Systems Crooks?
Bad experience with Knoll Systems Projectors. Sent my HD 272 to the Knoll facility in WA for service. Knoll had it stolen from their plant and now refuses to replace it. They say they are not responsible (It was their facility!) and now because it's out of production they want another $1,100 from me in order to send me the 292 as a replacement. Is it just me or is this crazy business policy? Not to mention but they had my projector for 2 months prior to having it stolen! Seems to me like they are the real crooks! Anyone else have a bad experience with them? Can they really be a reputable company? Any ideas short of a lawsuit?

Frustrated in Dallas.

Sounds like a small claims court item. Sorry to hear of your troubles.

Try contacting the president. If they lost it, they are going to be liable.

That is discraceful behavior.

Under basic legal principles, when they accepted your projector from you, a bailment relationship was established.

Under this relationship, they owe you a duty to keep your property safe. What that duty may be can vary from state to state, but in most cases under these circumstances, they would be strictly liable to you for the value of the projector.

Don't stop complaining until you find a receptive voice.

That's terrible. :(

No matter what the law requires of them, you'd think it would simply be a matter of basic (not even extraordinary) customer service to replace your projector.

Uh oh. We just had all our inhouse orders stolen. Oh well, customers loss, not ours. :)

I'll let *you* call and explain that to all of them... :)

Try contacting the president. If they lost it, they are going to be liable.
That was from their president. Now for the newest.... They want to cobble together another 272 from spare parts they have lying around or are getting in and they think I'm unreasonable to accept that. What's with this company?

Hello to all AVS members. I would like to shed a bit of light on the subject since you have been given only one side of the story. As usual forums are used to post only one side. I would like to give you the other side and what I tried to do to make good on a bad situation.
I would like to know who wouldn’t like to upgrade a 5-year-old unit to the latest and greatest projector for only 700.00.

Yes the over 5-year-old projector was here for service for a long time and what we consider too long and unacceptable. But please remember any piece of electronics over 5 years old is not easy to source parts for, just try to get a Sony TV fixed by Sony that’s over 5 years old! SO the unit was in for a longer than usual time to try to source parts that are now very difficult get. We finally received the parts made the repairs and were to bill the client a little over $400.00 this is a discounted repair rate by the way. Within the next day that the unit was to be shipped out the unit was stolen. We contacted our insurance company and asked for coverage. The answer was that the owners of the projector were to have it covered in their homeowner’s coverage. Made sense to me as I had the same basic thing happen to me personally and that’s the way I had to make the claim. I didn’t like offering only one solution to “Bill” so I searched our inventory and found an almost new current unit with only 125 hours on it. I used the same values that the US federal government makes us use when sending repairs back. That value for the 5-year-old projector is approximately 1500.00. So I took this value and subtracted what his repair would be minus a little more and came up with a difference of 700.00 for a new model upgrade replacement. Since we did not have his same model and his was over 5 years old I thought he would be excited to get a current model worth over 3200. For 1100.00 minus the $400 repair cost leaving only 700 to get a model with a real HDMI input three times the contrast ratio and we would expedite the unit so he could have it for his super bowl party.

I called the client back after a full morning of trying to find another solution to make him happy. What we came up with was to rebuild a completely new 272 model from parts chassis of the same model he sent in replace it with a new bulb which would virtually give him a new machine for less than his original repair cost would be. This increased our labor costs substantially but still tried to appease him by keeping the repair to the same range as his original repair cost. This is sending him a better machine than he sent in and charging him less that he was originally quotes plus including a new bulb assembly. He rejected this offer also. Telling me he would only accept a new model brand new machine.

This was not good enough for him he wanted a brand new unit for free. We continue to try to please each problem when they arise as best we can. We experience very few problems of reliability and customer satisfaction. Rarely do we experience a dilemma we cannot solve. It is unfortunate this occurred and have made an offer I personally would like to have for every piece of aging electronics that I own!

I am a reasonable man and have been in the AV business all my life, over 40 years. I have known Mr. Knoll as a good and honest person. That’s why I came to work for him. There are some folks who cannot be satisfied no matter what you do for them. We have tried to respond as fast as possible and in a way that I thought would be a great offer. Knoll builds great cutting edge products and has customers that are thrilled worldwide.
If you have any questions regarding Knoll Systems I will try to do my best to help each and every one of you, I am Richard Hanson VP of sales and marketing.

Sounds like a company hurting for money being short sighted about public image. Maybe it's an old guy from before the internet that never really learned about forums etc. He might just think you're some goof that wasn't going to buy another one from them anyway so too bad. Not a company I can imagine doing business with based on this.

edit: I guess he knew about forums :) I can't beleive you tried to tell him his homeowners policy would have to cover it while it was at your business. I'm a business owner and I almost spit my drink on the desk when I read that.

I can see how you tried to make the situation right, but by the same token if the item was stolen from your place of business you need to replace it at no cost to the customer. It's not his fault the item was stolen and asking him to pay more money for a replacement (even if it is an upgrade) is unacceptable as is piecing together a replacement from left over parts. You may have to eat the cost of a new projector, but the ill will and lost revenue from people who will not do business with you over this customer's treatment, not to mention the cost of fighting a possible lawsuit, will far outweigh it.

I can not believe they told him to have his homeowners cover it.
Bad business decision. Especially after a 2 month delay!

I also love knolls response labeled,
Knoll Systems Responds to what appears to be blackmail attempt



How about, "knoll systems responds to bad customer service"

I see a new source of revenue for repair shops... Insurance! The sales guy could say "we often forget to lock the door at night... you may want to consider buying our customer protection policy.", you could also add additional coverage for situations where new problems were caused by the service suchas dust blobs.

~Jay

I'm a little surprised by some of your responses. So let me ask you a question. You are driving down the highway in your 1985 GMC pickup and some guy t-bones you. It's obviously not your fault, he is sited for the accident, and you turn in the claim to the insurance companies. His insurance company contacts you and offers you current market value for your truck which has been totaled (value of about 2000.00 dollars).

So based on your logic you sue the insurance company because they won't replace your 23 year old truck with a brand new 2008? :confused:

I am a GSM for a Chevrolet dealership and the problem nowadays is the customer has taken the adage "the customer is always right" too far. While I agree that customer service has definitely taken a turn for the worse the last few years, I think we need to step back and take a look at the situation at hand. While I feel the customer should be reimbursed for his stolen projector, and that it shouldn't be his responsibility to file an insurance claim, it sounds as if the company has made an attempt to try and handle the situation as quickly and fairly as possible. I love all the people that come on the forum (check his register date, it's not like he's been here for years) and cry "rat" whenever they feel they have been treated unfairly, and the members on here are quick to take sides before hearing the whole story.

To make sure you understood the whole stroy,.. He was offered a replacement with a NEW bulb and virtually a new machine at a lower cost then his original repair cost. The hours on all the important parts would have been zero hours! Virtually a new machine.

The person is unfortunately unrealistic and trying hard to get a free lunch. Look at it this way: Try to get a new car for a five year old one with a burned out motor. I don't think any car manufacturer would even try to make good as we have. some people expect to get something for nothing. for them there is not way to please them for 23 years we have been doing business as we would like to be treated. this person is unreasonable. I hope readers never experience such an unreasonable person their work. All the best to you from Knoll!

Knoll Systems, hmmn, how many of you ever heard of them before this thread:rolleyes:

Hello to all AVS members. I would like to shed a bit of light on the subject since you have been given only one side of the story. As usual forums are used to post only one side. I would like to give you the other side and what I tried to do to make good on a bad situation.
I would like to know who wouldn’t like to upgrade a 5-year-old unit to the latest and greatest projector for only 700.00.

Yes the over 5-year-old projector was here for service for a long time and what we consider too long and unacceptable. But please remember any piece of electronics over 5 years old is not easy to source parts for, just try to get a Sony TV fixed by Sony that’s over 5 years old! SO the unit was in for a longer than usual time to try to source parts that are now very difficult get. We finally received the parts made the repairs and were to bill the client a little over $400.00 this is a discounted repair rate by the way. Within the next day that the unit was to be shipped out the unit was stolen. We contacted our insurance company and asked for coverage. The answer was that the owners of the projector were to have it covered in their homeowner’s coverage. Made sense to me as I had the same basic thing happen to me personally and that’s the way I had to make the claim. I didn’t like offering only one solution to “Bill” so I searched our inventory and found an almost new current unit with only 125 hours on it. I used the same values that the US federal government makes us use when sending repairs back. That value for the 5-year-old projector is approximately 1500.00. So I took this value and subtracted what his repair would be minus a little more and came up with a difference of 700.00 for a new model upgrade replacement. Since we did not have his same model and his was over 5 years old I thought he would be excited to get a current model worth over 3200. For 1100.00 minus the $400 repair cost leaving only 700 to get a model with a real HDMI input three times the contrast ratio and we would expedite the unit so he could have it for his super bowl party.

I called the client back after a full morning of trying to find another solution to make him happy. What we came up with was to rebuild a completely new 272 model from parts chassis of the same model he sent in replace it with a new bulb which would virtually give him a new machine for less than his original repair cost would be. This increased our labor costs substantially but still tried to appease him by keeping the repair to the same range as his original repair cost. This is sending him a better machine than he sent in and charging him less that he was originally quotes plus including a new bulb assembly. He rejected this offer also. Telling me he would only accept a new model brand new machine.

This was not good enough for him he wanted a brand new unit for free. We continue to try to please each problem when they arise as best we can. We experience very few problems of reliability and customer satisfaction. Rarely do we experience a dilemma we cannot solve. It is unfortunate this occurred and have made an offer I personally would like to have for every piece of aging electronics that I own!

I am a reasonable man and have been in the AV business all my life, over 40 years. I have known Mr. Knoll as a good and honest person. That’s why I came to work for him. There are some folks who cannot be satisfied no matter what you do for them. We have tried to respond as fast as possible and in a way that I thought would be a great offer. Knoll builds great cutting edge products and has customers that are thrilled worldwide.
If you have any questions regarding Knoll Systems I will try to do my best to help each and every one of you, I am Richard Hanson VP of sales and marketing.
Not entirely true Richard. Shame on you. The projector was a little of 4 years old and had a new bulb put into it (only it's second). Moreover, although you had my projector for almost 2 months and I was promised it was being sent out within a day or two (on four separate occasions) I was never ever quoted a repair price. In fact, I had come to believe it was going to be fixed at no charge 'cause it was a defective part (prob. my bad). And, you yourself told me just a day ago that you were going to charge $300 for the repairs but they never were done! So, you didn't make the $400 repair. What's more, you've stated you have 8 other machines stolen and haven't even contacted all of those people yet. Talk about lousy service and trying to hide from your customers. You guys should know better. Come on, act like a real company instead of trying to getting someone else to absorb your losses for you.

Bill

The problem is; you coming on here and posting is not going to accomplish fixing your dilemma. This is not a mediation forum. If you truly feel like you have been mistreated you need to handle it through the proper channels. No matter how many people agree or disagree with you it is not going to solve the problem. It's just going to eat up bandwidth and end up in a flame war. JMTC

To make sure you understood the whole stroy,.. He was offered a replacement with a NEW bulb and virtually a new machine at a lower cost then his original repair cost. The hours on all the important parts would have been zero hours! Virtually a new machine.The person is unfortunately unrealistic and trying hard to get a free lunch. Look at it this way: Try to get a new car for a five year old one with a burned out motor. I don't think any car manufacturer would even try to make good as we have. some people expect to get something for nothing. for them there is not way to please them for 23 years we have been doing business as we would like to be treated. this person is unreasonable. I hope readers never experience such an unreasonable person their work.* All the best to you from Knoll!
You're missing the point - it was stolen from your premises. You need to replace it for no additional cost. The age of the item (or the condition it was in) has no bearing on this. If I ran a business I would be extremely apologetic (you don't seem to care) and would just send off a new machine. I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion. On a side note - what kind of people are you employing? If the projector was at your place of business for two months but was stolen as soon as the repair was made, obviously someone in your employ lifted it.

Bass addict is right, This is not a mediation place. I felt I needed to stop the posting of untruths. If anyone has valuable questions on home theater I would like to offer my help. Ill be glad to use my many years of experience to this forum. I wont bore you with my resume but I would like to help in any technical way I can. All the best!
Richard at Knoll systems!

I'm a little surprised by some of your responses. So let me ask you a question. You are driving down the highway in your 1985 GMC pickup and some guy t-bones you. It's obviously not your fault, he is sited for the accident, and you turn in the claim to the insurance companies. His insurance company contacts you and offers you current market value for your truck which has been totaled (value of about 2000.00 dollars).

So based on your logic you sue the insurance company because they won't replace your 23 year old truck with a brand new 2008? :confused:

I am a GSM for a Chevrolet dealership and the problem nowadays is the customer has taken the adage "the customer is always right" too far. While I agree that customer service has definitely taken a turn for the worse the last few years, I think we need to step back and take a look at the situation at hand. While I feel the customer should be reimbursed for his stolen projector, and that it shouldn't be his responsibility to file an insurance claim, it sounds as if the company has made an attempt to try and handle the situation as quickly and fairly as possible. I love all the people that come on the forum (check his register date, it's not like he's been here for years) and cry "rat" whenever they feel they have been treated unfairly, and the members on here are quick to take sides before hearing the whole story.


I guess I won't be buying any Chevrolets :eek:

If you had offered to build a new unit and offered something like a 1 year warranty that would have been good. The problem with giving "market value" or a reconstructed unit is the person knows how they took care of their own unit since new and probably don't feel that someone else intending to dump it on the used market gave it the level of care they would have.

That's the main problem with Bass Addicts point as well, I wouldn't simply trade a car I had maintained well for another one that happens to have the same appraised value. Yes I know that's what will happen if I have an accident. It's something all drivers know when they hit the road. That's why some people are cautious drivers and avoid accidents, because they know they won't be getting an equal value if something happens.

New parts from front to rear, out of the bins and hand built. is not getting a "used car" out of the deal.
Now can I help in any other way?
Regards Richard

The problem is; you coming on here and posting is not going to accomplish fixing your dilemma. This is not a mediation forum. If you truly feel like you have been mistreated you need to handle it through the proper channels. No matter how many people agree or disagree with you it is not going to solve the problem. It's just going to eat up bandwidth and end up in a flame war. JMTC

Actually you are somewhat wrong. Forums are a great way to get advice in these type of situations. What's more, in a lot of cases there are company reps lurking who will jump in to make things right (although it took a completely different turn here).

I agree that there will be some customers who are unreasonable but for Knoll systems to come on here and accuse a customer of blackmail is perhaps the most unprofessional thing I've ever seen a company representative do on an open forum.

If the OP did anything wrong it was only in letting a little bit of his frustration show through when he called them crooks. Truthfully though, if I was in his shoes I would have probably had a few more choice words for this company.

New parts from front to rear, out of the bins and hand built. is not getting a "used car" out of the deal.
Now can I help in any other way?
Regards Richard

You could certainly help your companies image here by making things right with your customer. Offer to build up that 272, put a bulb in it, then ship it out and be done with it.

You could certainly help your companies image here by making things right with your customer. Offer to build up that 272, put a bulb in it, then ship it out and be done with it.


Not here .. his image is history.. he told the cutomer to use his home owners insurance to file a claim .. that just wrong ..the company should have insurance for what they call shrinkage( aka employee theft).. my insurance agent would laugh.. :eek:

This seems like troll bait. This "Knolls Systems" guy seems too whack to be true. What kind of business owner is going to respond to a potential legal issue in a public forum, accuse a customer of blackmail, and make it pretty clear that it's not safe to trust them with your merchandise?

His reputation would have taken less of a beating if he'd never shown up to defend himself.

He's either not real, or he's a crappy business man. And either way, I'm never buying anything from Knolls systems.

On the other hand, I might start a company called "Grassy Gnolls" systems and sell projectors from behind a stone wall.

P.S.

Two guys with such a low post count? Take a hint, people.

I am a GSM for a Chevrolet dealership and the problem nowadays is the customer has taken the adage "the customer is always right" too far.

Maybe thats why Toyota keeps gaining market share.


And doesnt Knoll systems just rebadge Infocus products?
That cant be too good of a business model right now.

BDog, thanks for the heads up on Knoll Systems. If their responses in this thread are genuine they should certainly be avoided by anyone with a grip on reality! I hope you are somehow able to realize a degree of satisfaction.

Knoll Systems, hmmn, how many of you ever heard of them before this thread:rolleyes:

not me. just as well, apparently.
i do hope both parties come to an amicable solution.

knolls may want to change their business model, company name, and/or hire a pr person.

If Richard from Knoll is really a Knoll employee, he sure has a lot to learn about customer service. It is MIND BOGGLING that he would tell a customer to call his home owner's insurance to replace this.

Again...assuming Richard is really from Knoll, I will be using this thread in an MBA class as a textbook case example of the worst customer service ever. Talk about short sighted!

Richard...search the forum for threads from Don Stewart, and you can see how companies grow when the offer amazing customer service.

In this case...after the crazy delay, you should have fixed it for free anyway. After it was stolen, you should have given him a brand new one. Period. Do the right thing.

I agree I'm not a AV enthusiast. But, I spent 8-9,000 on projector from what I thought was a high end reputable manufacturer. 8 other AV folks also had their projector stolen and I guess are being "forced to upgrade" from this company. Surely that is of interest in an AV forum. Maybe it will prevent someone else from having a bad experience also. Why would you not want this exposed? BTW, what do you think is the fair market replacement value of my little use HD272?

I agree I'm not a AV enthusiast. But, I spent 8-9,000 on projector from what I thought was a high end reputable manufacturer. 8 other AV folks also had their projector stolen and I guess are being "forced to upgrade" from this company. Surely that is of interest in an AV forum. Maybe it will prevent someone else from having a bad experience also. Why would you not want this exposed? BTW, what do you think is the fair market replacement value of my little use HD272?


Bdog I don't think you want to know how much it is worth! But agree they should just give a new model and be done with it.

Dale

I guess I won't be buying any Chevrolets :eek:

Not sure I see the correlation to the subject at hand but I'm sure Chevrolet will lay awake at night agonizing over the loss. :rolleyes:

If you had offered to build a new unit and offered something like a 1 year warranty that would have been good. The problem with giving "market value" or a reconstructed unit is the person knows how they took care of their own unit since new and probably don't feel that someone else intending to dump it on the used market gave it the level of care they would have.

Apparently you have never had a problem with anything you have purchased. Do you think when your factory warranty pj crashes and you send it in for a replacement that the factory is giving you a brand new never used pj? When you purchase a new cell phone and it has a problem a month later they give you a factory refurbished one. And this is when they are under factory warranty. Why then, with a four year old pj that has a problem, should a company be expected to replace it with a "brand new" one. Look at your logic.

That's the main problem with Bass Addicts point as well, I wouldn't simply trade a car I had maintained well for another one that happens to have the same appraised value. Yes I know that's what will happen if I have an accident. It's something all drivers know when they hit the road.

So you only purchase brand new cars?

That's why some people are cautious drivers and avoid accidents, because they know they won't be getting an equal value if something happens.

I don't think that is at the forefront of people's minds when they choose to drive carefully. I think they value their safety over their cars value. But nice point.


Maybe thats why Toyota keeps gaining market share.

Wow, if you're going to bother wasting bandwidth, at least make an attempt to offer a somewhat witty and intelligent comeback. :rolleyes: And if you're going to quote me, then use my whole sentence, and not take it out of context.

P.S. Go in to Toyota and tell them you want to trade your 3 yr old Toyota straight across for a brand new Tundra and tell me how far you get.

And just to clarify, our Chevrolet CSI score is over 90%. For those that don't know that is how our new car customers rate their buying experience. Zone average is 80%. I whole heartedly believe in customer service, customers are who keep us in business.

I have run into people though that it is impossible to make them happy. No matter what is done, even going to extremes, they just want to be pissed off about something. I can recall new customers that come in and name off 4 other dealerships that pissed them off recently. Sometimes we need to look in the mirror.

I agree this forum is a great tool for advice, I just find it funny that the first post of a new member is bashing a company. It just seems a little odd. If they would come on here and ask for advice based on the situation I might see it a little differently.

We as consumers seem to be biased to our own side though and don't want to take in the whole scenario. I never once stated that Knoll was in the right or didn't make a mistake and shouldn't reimburse the customer, but based on the two posts from both sides it seems that both parties are not "squeaky" clean by any means.

That's the problem with these posts as there are two sides to every situation and people tend to be easily offended (myself included) by other people's opinions. :)

So bass addict - you're telling me that if a customer brought a car to you for repair and after the repair the car was stolen from the dealership's lot you wouldn't be apologetic to the max and offer to replace the car? Like I said earlier, the goodwill you'd generate and positive word of mouth would more than offset the monetary hit you'd take in replacing the stolen item by bringing in new sales. Cars are an extreme point as they're much more money, but for this Knoll guy to ship out a new pj wouldn't cost him as much as this thread is, especially when you consider what it actually costs him (dealer cost, not retail).

And just to clarify, our Chevrolet CSI score is over 90%. For those that don't know that is how our new car customers rate their buying experience. Zone average is 80%. I whole heartedly believe in customer service, customers are who keep us in business.

I have run into people though that it is impossible to make them happy. No matter what is done, even going to extremes, they just want to be pissed off about something. I can recall new customers that come in and name off 4 other dealerships that pissed them off recently. Sometimes we need to look in the mirror.

I agree this forum is a great tool for advice, I just find it funny that the first post of a new member is bashing a company. It just seems a little odd. If they would come on here and ask for advice based on the situation I might see it a little differently.

We as consumers seem to be biased to our own side though and don't want to take in the whole scenario. I never once stated that Knoll was in the right or didn't make a mistake and shouldn't reimburse the customer, but based on the two posts from both sides it seems that both parties are not "squeaky" clean by any means.

That's the problem with these posts as there are two sides to every situation and people tend to be easily offended (myself included) by other people's opinions. :)
You're missing a few important elements. When my projector's on/off switch broke, I didn't call the company and demand a new machine. At my own expense I packaged the item up and shipped it across country to the manufacturer to have it repaired. Now they lose it and want to force me to pay 1,100 for an upgrade replacement machine. Only after I sent them a few posts from this site and a few other forums, did they agreed to build me a replacement machine from spare parts. But tell me, this Knoll systems told me at least 4 times my machine was being shipped. Just recently when I called them, they told me it had shipped already. When I didn't get the tracking number or my machine in a few days, I had to call them again and they finally admitted the unit did not ship but had been stolen. I had to call them to find it was stolen days ago. One week later and they still haven't notified all the other folks who had their machines stolen as well. Their VP says in his post yesterday that parts for a 4 year old machine are incredibly hard to come by but now all of a sudden he has an abundance of parts and can get just right on making me up a replacement projector. How do I know what components he's putting in there? How could I trust Knoll to be reliable when they already have a track record of obscuring the truth? Can I trust them enough to send them this machine when it breaks? Are you saying that it that unreasonable to ask them to send me a new replacement or even a check large enough to buy a comparable machine to the one I had? And lastly, as a business owner myself with about 100 employees and a few thousand customers, I know things happen. But when you're not straight forward in correcting it, you deserve the grief customers would give you. Here you have a seller of high end AV projectors and equipment who is trying to jam me and I guess the 8 other people who had their projectors stolen. Surely that is a notable subject of discussion in a AV forum and worthy of burning up a little bandwidth, isn't it.

If this Knoll guy is legit, he should assume responsibility for merchandise lost or stolen while under his care.

Can you imagine taking your clothes to the cleaners and being told you will have to make a choice between going naked or spending money out of your own pocket to wear some twisted version of the "coat of many colors" cobbled together from leftover fabric?

So bass addict - you're telling me that if a customer brought a car to you for repair and after the repair the car was stolen from the dealership's lot you wouldn't be apologetic to the max and offer to replace the car? Like I said earlier, the goodwill you'd generate and positive word of mouth would more than offset the monetary hit you'd take in replacing the stolen item by bringing in new sales. Cars are an extreme point as they're much more money, but for this Knoll guy to ship out a new pj wouldn't cost him as much as this thread is, especially when you consider what it actually costs him (dealer cost, not retail).

I would definitely go to every extent possible to make sure the customer is satisfied 100%. There have been many cases where I have paid thousands of dollars more than was fair to us, to make sure a customer is happy. I believe that by doing this we will benefit more in the long term. I agree that cars are an extreme and eating a few hundred dollars for a pj is better for business in the long run.

You're missing a few important elements. When my projector's on/off switch broke, I didn't call the company and demand a new machine. At my own expense I packaged the item up and shipped it across country to the manufacturer to have it repaired. Now they lose it and want to force me to pay 1,100 for an upgrade replacement machine. Only after I sent them a few posts from this site and a few other forums, did they agreed to build me a replacement machine from spare parts. But tell me, this Knoll systems told me at least 4 times my machine was being shipped. Just recently when I called them, they told me it had shipped already. When I didn't get the tracking number or my machine in a few days, I had to call them again and they finally admitted the unit did not ship but had been stolen. I had to call them to find it was stolen days ago. One week later and they still haven't notified all the other folks who had their machines stolen as well. Their VP says in his post yesterday that parts for a 4 year old machine are incredibly hard to come by but now all of a sudden he has an abundance of parts and can get just right on making me up a replacement projector. How do I know what components he's putting in there? How could I trust Knoll to be reliable when they already have a track record of obscuring the truth? Can I trust them enough to send them this machine when it breaks? Are you saying that it that unreasonable to ask them to send me a new replacement or even a check large enough to buy a comparable machine to the one I had? And lastly, as a business owner myself with about 100 employees and a few thousand customers, I know things happen. But when you're not straight forward in correcting it, you deserve the grief customers would give you. Here you have a seller of high end AV projectors and equipment who is trying to jam me and I guess the 8 other people who had their projectors stolen. Surely that is a notable subject of discussion in a AV forum and worthy of burning up a little bandwidth, isn't it.

That's the problem here is none of us have all the facts. According to you it sounds like the company is at the least lazy and at most dishonest. I have had the unfortunate luck to have been in your position and it's no fun. I am currently in a paypal dispute with someone right now, who I purchased goods from that arrived completely different than described, so I can relate to the PITA you are experiencing. If the company is as you mention, I think it would be better to be reimbursed the fair market value of the pj and to take the money and purchase a different one somewhere else.

I'm trying to imagine a situation in which I would have the 'set' to tell a customer who sent me their product in good faith, that it was stolen from my care, and I expected them to outlay ANY CASH AT ALL in order to set things right.

I can't even begin to consider how much alcohol I would require before such a conversation took place.

Cobbling together parts to make up a unit, MIGHT have been acceptable, if the mfg took the step to add a few years warranty or something to help appease the customer .. otherwise, honestly I'd refuse it too, esp considering the original discussion.

It never ceases to amaze me that many companies haven't figured out the best way to earn a customer, is to keep an existing one happy.

If in fact this whole thread is real, Knoll had better take some lessons from places like Carada or others mentioned here ... who have customer service down pat.

This whole thread has been great for Knoll systems.
They never had this many people even know who they were.

I asked before, but don't they just rebadge Infocus units?



Wow, if you're going to bother wasting bandwidth, at least make an attempt to offer a somewhat witty and intelligent comeback.

O.K., I was trying to be nice. Maybe Toyota is gaining market share year after year because they offer better products and have better management.
Sorry to blame it on customer service issues.

O.K., I was trying to be nice. Maybe Toyota is gaining market share year after year because they offer better products and have better management.
Sorry to blame it on customer service issues.

Much better, lol. Apparently you haven't seen the residual on a Toyota product. ;) If you think the corporate big wigs from any large company are pushovers you are sadly mistaken. :rolleyes:

I'm just playing devils advocate and certainly respect your opinion. :)

not me. just as well, apparently.
i do hope both parties come to an amicable solution.

knolls may want to change their business model, company name, and/or hire a pr person.

Also they should change insurance co who advised them that owner's ins. should cover the stolen item.
There is a very good possibility that the unit is NOT repaired and all the story is a cover up. :) They can't repair it.:D

What a first post for me, after I've been drooling over the HT thread this is where I make my mark....

Let me preface this by saying I'm a sales manager for a pharmaceutical OE company. Equipment from $100k-4MM. This would be a no brainer in my buisness. Send him an equivolent new machine, with a note that says "Sorry there was a delay, we value you as a customer so here's a new unit."

Enough said. Take the write off. Don't get a customer involved in your in-house affairs. I can tell you this, we do refurbs and upgrades for customers, and wouldn't think of sending them anything less than brand new if there was an accident (Believe me, we've had machines fall off ships during shipping, million bucks at the bottom of the sea). That's what insurance is for. If your insurance trys to nickle and dime about that crap, eat the cost or get new insurance. What are you talking about? 1500 bucks for parts?

If you really have to talk about what's owed to a customer and what's not, you have really should think of it from the standpoint of what's fair from an uninolved persons perspective. I think what is fair in this case is still a functional equivolent unit. Same goes for a truck. If you really value the PR and the customer, upgrade him, call him and tell him "Listen, we're sorry, let us make it up to you."

90-95% of new customers are current customers. If you do that you'll have a customer for life.

Now about the customer is always right. Thats a retail saying. The customer is not always right. If you are fair, and the customer is fair then, you have a good relationship. I won't tolerate customers who are beligerent, disrepectful or think it's a game of "I wins he looses". I've told prospects "No thanks, I don't think we're a good fit." I'd rather spend my time working with the customers who I have a great relationship with then some PITA who will never be that. Just not good for cash flow.

BTW - Rjhatknoll, I hope you have company permision. Speaking as a company representive to the public is no-no at my company. I can talk to customers. I can negotiate deals and terms, but I can not speak on behalf of the company in a public forum.

I think the law is very clear on points like this.

Once the company accepted the projector for repair, they were legally bound to assume "reasonable" care in ensuring the safety of the property. What exactly is "reasonable"? That might be for a court to decide. Let me provide an example: Say you leave your car at a repair shop. They let you know that they need to keep the car overnight. They call you the next morning to inform you that your car has been vandalized. Ok, now the possibilities:
- They also inform you that the car was locked and inside their locked, fenced storage yard. In this case, they are probably not liable for the damage. Your insurance pays for it.
- They inform you that the car was locked in front of their premises, but accessible to the pubic. In this case, they would likely be liable. Their insurance pays for it.

My guess is that since this was a small electrical device that could be easily stolen, the repair company should have had an alarm on the building and perhaps a locked area inside their building to store such items. I would also guess that the repair company's insurance should cover the cost of replacement with either a comparable unit, or possibly, its residual "blue book" value. The only expense to the projector's owner should be the original repair bill plus any postage to return the repaired unit to the owner (if any was due).

The sad part is that a projector that is several years old might not have much "blue book" value -- ever had anyone run into your 10 year-old car?

My $.02

If you have any questions regarding Knoll Systems I will try to do my best to help each and every one of you, I am Richard Hanson VP of sales and marketing.

I have a question. How did you become the VP of sales and marketing with such an obvious lack of good business judgement and customer satisfaction skills?:confused:

I would be seriously surprised if a manufacturers insurance policy didn't cover a customers product while in that manufacturers place. Although I would not be surprised if Knoll's insurance company did tell him to have the customer contact their own insurer...I mean, no one wants to pay out on claims obviously.

Still, I would expect Knoll to be nothing but apologetic and offer their best to fix the situation (whatever that is). None of us were there so we really don't know the whole story, but if this how it happened, I would expect the customer to be upset.

Sorry, I did miss your title.

... one more thing from my post above...

My post deals with what is required by law. Which is to say the minimally acceptable to be fair to both parties. If Knoll Systems really wanted to make the situation right to their customer, they would do more than that.

However, to be fair to Knoll Systems, they are likely a small company that is not flush with cash...

However, to be fair to Knoll Systems, they are likely a small company that is not flush with cash...

To me, Knoll Systems sounds like it might be comprised of one lonely guy named Knoll sitting next to an inventory that consists of an AIWA boombox and a Sony alarm-clock radio.

To me, Knoll Systems sounds like it might be comprised of one lonely guy named Knoll sitting next to an inventory that consists of an AIWA boombox and a Sony alarm-clock radio.

hmmmmm (as 'they' say), i dont know. goto knollsystems.com; website looks somewhat substantial (a quasi-international co., even) to me, if thats any thing to go by (and if its the same/correct one).

or someones faking us out!?

edit-if site is anything to go by, these folks arent gonna quibble over few $k or probably less, they'd take care of the customer and be done with issue. if for no other reason than to maintain good pr.

i repeat, someones faking us out, somewhere!

What's wrong with AIWA? I was planning to use AIWA for the audio on my HT.

This whole thread has been great for Knoll systems.
They never had this many people even know who they were.

I asked before, but don't they just rebadge Infocus units?

O.K., I was trying to be nice. Maybe Toyota is gaining market share year after year because they offer better products and have better management.
Sorry to blame it on customer service issues.

<OT rant>

Actually, if you do any research you'll find that Toyota has been trading quality for market share. Recall after recall on major components and incidents such as shipping known, faulty transmissions has tarnished their once good name. You know there's something with this company when a mag like Consumer Reports takes them off their Recommended Buy list. You would have better luck with a current Ford or Chevy product than something from Toyota (where quality and durability exist only in the imagination of their marketing department).

</OTRant>

This is taking a very TVA turn, isn't it?

Except TVA would have already charged the $400 in repairs that hadn't been done, then went ahead and charged the $1100 for the new projector without sending it out!

At least Knoll isn't TVA..... It's pretty bad when you start comparing a company to TVA...

How many people googled Knoll after reading this? This is probably the most hits their web site has ever gotten. Maybe it wasn't such bad PR.

i repeat, someones faking us out, somewhere!

The Knoll website does list Richard Hanson as VP of Sales and Marketing. Someone should call or email him to get a direct quote or comment from him.

http://www.knollsystems.com/contact.html

What's wrong with AIWA? I was planning to use AIWA for the audio on my HT.


Nothing wrong with AIWA, Tutmos. This was my poor attempt at humor, given that it would be quite disappointing for a major HT dealer to have an inventory that consisted of a single AIWA boombox (I mean, a boombox?) and an alarm clock radio.

Maybe I should go back to the Grassy Gnolls joke. As in, maybe the second shooter stole his projector! :D

Thank you. I'll be here all week.

hmmmmm (as 'they' say), i dont know. goto knollsystems.com; website looks somewhat substantial (a quasi-international co., even) to me, if thats any thing to go by (and if its the same/correct one).

or someones faking us out!

i repeat, someones faking us out, somewhere!


Man, you guys have to be the most skeptical group of folks I know :D. Actually, I'm really having more fun than I ought to be having considering the situation - thanks for making it so interesting. This forum stuff is really addicting and I guess after my lawsuit with Knoll, I am going to need some advice for a replacement machine so I'm glad I found this site.

Here's the latest news flash from my new friends at Knoll. Heck, if I had known it was Richard's first or second day on the job, I might have shown him a little more patience and understanding... Well, maybe not.


January 31, 2008 Knoll Systems introduces new Sales and Marketing Director

Richard Hanson has joined Knoll Systems and is the new sales and marketing director. He is replacing Alan Scott, effective immediately.

Richard is an engineer (BSEE) and brings a wealth of experience to this position as a dealer/integrator, factory and independent sales representative, distributor, sales trainer with Zig Ziglar, as well as manufacturer with national and international electronic sales, product design, engineering, and manufacturing experience. He currently resides in Denver, Colorado.

As a rep for Knoll Systems many years ago, Richard says “I have always have been impressed with Knoll’s technical abilities.” He anticipates placing Knoll Systems where it should be in each market to achieve the sales and profitability it deserves.

You can contact Richard until February 8 at 1 800 566-5579 or by e-mail at richardh@knollsystems.com. We will be updating his contact information soon; which will be posted on this web site on the Contact page.

January 31, 2008 Knoll Systems introduces new Sales and Marketing Director

Richard Hanson has joined Knoll Systems and is the new sales and marketing director. He is replacing Alan Scott, effective immediately.


Is it too late for them to hire Alan back? :eek:

<OT rant>

Actually, if you do any research you'll find that Toyota has been trading quality for market share. Recall after recall on major components and incidents such as shipping known, faulty transmissions has tarnished their once good name. You know there's something with this company when a mag like Consumer Reports takes them off their Recommended Buy list. You would have better luck with a current Ford or Chevy product than something from Toyota (where quality and durability exist only in the imagination of their marketing department).

</OTRant>

Actually the problem from everything I've seen in consumer reports is with the Toyota's made in the USA. The models with extremely low domestic content are still on the same quality level that they always have been.

Nothing wrong with AIWA, Tutmos. This was my poor attempt at humor, given that it would be quite disappointing for a major HT dealer to have an inventory that consisted of a single AIWA boombox (I mean, a boombox?) and an alarm clock radio.

Maybe I should go back to the Grassy Gnolls joke. As in, maybe the second shooter stole his projector! :D

Thank you. I'll be here all week.

Hehe sorry I forgot about this thread. I was joking in that response about Aiwa. I don't have any plans to buy anything from them and most certainly not for my theater. I did have a boombox made by Aiwa back in the 80's I think. :D

To me, Knoll Systems sounds like it might be comprised of one lonely guy named Knoll sitting next to an inventory that consists of an AIWA boombox and a Sony alarm-clock radio.


:D:D:D

So, let me get this right and keep me up to speed... 1) Don't buy a Knoll projector or if you have one don't send it back for repairs or they'll lose it, charge you for repairs anyway, and then force you to buy a brand new one. 2) Don't buy a Chevy because their cars suck, but feel free to call them bacause their customer service is great. 3) Only buy a Toyota if it's made in Japan because American made cars of any name brand suck. 4) Only bring your car to get repairs at a shop that stores your car outside because if it's stolen they are responsible 5) Aiwa sucks and should never be included in a HT forum, try maybe a Best Buy or Walmart forum. 6) Sorry, there's nothing wrong with Aiwa. If that's the way you swing and your choice in lifestyle Aiwa is fine. 7) There's a lot of lawyers that hang out in this forum 8) The only place that is safe to buy anything, whether it's a projector, a car, or an Aiwa receiver is from AVS Science. Jason actually specializes in Awia. I was orginally leaning towards an Emerson boombox, but Jason convinced me Aiwa was a better deal. 9) oh, there's a opening for a new PR person at Knoll. No experience required.

That sums up the opinions in this thread! Don't know about the facts though...

So, let me get this right and keep me up to speed... 1) Don't buy a Knoll projector or if you have one don't send it back for repairs or they'll lose it, charge you for repairs anyway, and then force you to buy a brand new one. 2) Don't buy a Chevy because their cars suck, but feel free to call them bacause their customer service is great. 3) Only buy a Toyota if it's made in Japan because American made cars of any name brand suck. 4) Only bring your car to get repairs at a shop that stores your car outside because if it's stolen they are responsible 5) Aiwa sucks and should never be included in a HT forum, try maybe a Best Buy or Walmart forum. 6) Sorry, there's nothing wrong with Aiwa. If that's the way you swing and your choice in lifestyle Aiwa is fine. 7) There's a lot of lawyers that hang out in this forum 8) The only place that is safe to buy anything, whether it's a projector, a car, or an Aiwa receiver is from AVS Science. Jason actually specializes in Awia. I was orginally leaning towards an Emerson boombox, but Jason convinced me Aiwa was a better deal. 9) oh, there's a opening for a new PR person at Knoll. No experience required.

hey, u're a pretty smart feller!:D

facts, what facts?

To answer one question: yes I have heard of Knoll on a number of occasions.

They rebadge projectors (mainly Infocus) for the custom installer market. With the people who do that business, they have a good reputation AFAIK.

This story sounds just awful, however, and the note from the perported Knoll employee certainly hurts their case from a PR perspective. Basically they admit that they lost the machine.

Whether or not their insurance company would cover this, it is very difficult for me to believe that Knoll is not liable. Further, as a matter of PR, just terrible.

I suggest that you try to get hold of the president.

I suggest that you try to get hold of the president.

Their president, Kevin Knoll, was the 1st guy I spoke with once their service tech admitted the PJ was stolen. He was pretty unapologetic and couldn't get me off the phone fast enough dumping me off to the New VP. I've emailed him some of these posts so I'm sure he's painfully aware of his VP's posts and the overall sentiment of the forum. Either he just doesn't care or, I suspect, Knoll is pretty much a hand to mouth operation and can't afford to do the right thing since they do only rebadge others Pj's.

I have filed with the BBB in that area, unfortunately Knoll is not a member, and I sent this thread and my complaint to CEA and CEDIA, 2 associations Knoll is a member of. We'll see what they say. Next week I'll email the AV thread to all their vendors & distributors and play around a bit with Google ad words and see what that does. Any other ideas? I'd love to hear them....

If you have a lawyer-friend who could write a letter to the president, this sometimes helps.

It also helps to know what the local law is WRT equipment left for repairs and who is responsible. Most of the time, they are responsible for the value of the equipment but not for "consequential" damages (which you would not be claiming).

You say your system is the Knoll HD-272. I believe that this is the same machine as the Infocus 7200. I have a 7200. I am sorry to tell you that they are worth very little today.

There are also 720P machines--better than the HD-272--that you can buy NEW for around $1000 MSRP. Check with AVS on this.

It would be easy for them to replace your machine. If you have not paid them for the repairs, I suggest that you not do so.

I suggest asking them for $1000 and you will be satisfied. A lawyer would make it clearer.

I too was informed (2/6/08) that my HD272 had been stolen while in the care of the Knolls repair dept.
I am trying also to come to an equitable solution with Mr. Hanson. The company does seem to be imprudent in their dealings with us "victims". They stand to lose so much good will. It is unfortunate that they don't see this as an opportunity to create a lot of good will by going out of their way, and out of pocket, to make us feel we were more justly compensated for the 2 month wait and the loss of our machines. If they had offered me a new machine for free or at the cost of the repair (I also thought it would be $300 or free because of the excessive wait.) I would have come to this forum and told you all of their generosity and sincere desire to keep me as a happy customer and, of course, to find out what you all thought of the replacement projector they were offering.
To that end, do any of you have knowledge of the HD 290 or its Infocus equivalent (if any). Is it truly a better machine than my old 272?
Thanks, Rich

bump. id like to hear more on this situation.

Hey guys, I have a great idea for a business model. I'm going to run my projectors until they stop working. Then, I'm going to cover up the little Sony emblems with a sticker that says "Gremmy Systems."

Then, I'm going to sell my Brand New "Gremmy Systems" SRX500 1080p PJ to some unsuspecting sucker here on AVS. When that person sends it back to me for replacement, I'll make sure it gets "stolen."

Then I get to keep the cash.

Where is the flaw in my thinking? Sounds like Knoll would be proud!

I too was informed (2/6/08) that my HD272 had been stolen while in the care of the Knolls repair dept.
I am trying also to come to an equitable solution with Mr. Hanson. The company does seem to be imprudent in their dealings with us "victims". They stand to lose so much good will. It is unfortunate that they don't see this as an opportunity to create a lot of good will by going out of their way, and out of pocket, to make us feel we were more justly compensated for the 2 month wait and the loss of our machines. If they had offered me a new machine for free or at the cost of the repair (I also thought it would be $300 or free because of the excessive wait.) I would have come to this forum and told you all of their generosity and sincere desire to keep me as a happy customer and, of course, to find out what you all thought of the replacement projector they were offering.
To that end, do any of you have knowledge of the HD 290 or its Infocus equivalent (if any). Is it truly a better machine than my old 272?
Thanks, Rich


Wow, let me get this straight. Knoll took almost 2 weeks to let you know your PJ was stolen? Did they ask you to have your homeowner's policy cover it? Did they apologize? Did you have the same repair problem as me (power supply accord. to Knoll) and that's why it took them 2 months to get to it? Did they tell you they finally repaired it just the night before it got stolen - do you believe them? Sorry for all the questions but just trying to get your whole story.

I've sent my complaint to the BBB. Knoll basically keeping the same posture but is now insisting I've been posting gross untruths. Go figure...

I also contacted CEPRO and CEDIA, 2 professional installer associations Knoll is a member of. CEDIA in particular looks like they may call Knoll to account - we'll see. The guy who handles member complaints on the front end is Darren Reaman - dreaman@cedia.org . It might help if you emailed them your story as well so they know it's not just an isolated case.

Let's keep in touch. If Knoll does not come around to the BBB, CEDIA, CEPRO or this AVS Forum pressure, maybe we can split attorney fees or something - no sense re-creating the wheel.

Bill

My neighbor's name is mister Knoll. I don't know if that's his real name, but kids keep calling him mister Knoll. Next time I see him, I will ask him if he is THE mister Knoll.

I too was informed (2/6/08) that my HD272 had been stolen while in the care of the Knolls repair dept.
I am trying also to come to an equitable solution with Mr. Hanson. The company does seem to be imprudent in their dealings with us "victims". They stand to lose so much good will. It is unfortunate that they don't see this as an opportunity to create a lot of good will by going out of their way, and out of pocket, to make us feel we were more justly compensated for the 2 month wait and the loss of our machines. If they had offered me a new machine for free or at the cost of the repair (I also thought it would be $300 or free because of the excessive wait.) I would have come to this forum and told you all of their generosity and sincere desire to keep me as a happy customer and, of course, to find out what you all thought of the replacement projector they were offering.
To that end, do any of you have knowledge of the HD 290 or its Infocus equivalent (if any). Is it truly a better machine than my old 272?
Thanks, Rich

See:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Knoll_Systems-HD290.htm

The Knoll HD-290 is the Infocus IN76. This is a 720P machine that has MSRP of around $2K. You can look it up at projectcentral.com.

There are other machines that you might also look into. AVS can help you in this regard.

As I posted in a previous note, the important issue is not what their insurance says, it is what their legal liability is. Assuming this is in Washington state, you might see if there is a lawyer who can help you with this. Since there seem to be other people having the same problem, there is always strength in numbers.

BTW your previous machine was worth very little. I assume you have not paid them for the repair. One approach is to get them to give you something for it and then see what you can buy on the open market. The prices for 720P machines have fallen shockingly. I would be very reluctant to pay them any money for a new machine.

My neighbor's name is mister Knoll. I don't know if that's his real name, but kids keep calling him mister Knoll. Next time I see him, I will ask him if he is THE mister Knoll.

Whatever you do, don't give your projector to him. You'll never see it again!

Wow, let me get this straight. Knoll took almost 2 weeks to let you know your PJ was stolen? Did they ask you to have your homeowner's policy cover it? Did they apologize? Did you have the same repair problem as me (power supply accord. to Knoll) and that's why it took them 2 months to get to it? Did they tell you they finally repaired it just the night before it got stolen - do you believe them? Sorry for all the questions but just trying to get your whole story.

I've sent my complaint to the BBB. Knoll basically keeping the same posture but is now insisting I've been posting gross untruths. Go figure...

I also contacted CEPRO and CEDIA, 2 professional installer associations Knoll is a member of. CEDIA in particular looks like they may call Knoll to account - we'll see. The guy who handles member complaints on the front end is Darren Reaman - dreaman@cedia.org . It might help if you emailed them your story as well so they know it's not just an isolated case.

Let's keep in touch. If Knoll does not come around to the BBB, CEDIA, CEPRO or this AVS Forum pressure, maybe we can split attorney fees or something - no sense re-creating the wheel.

Bill

Well, Bill,
I will try to answer your questions as best I can. Mr. Hanson was very pleasant on the phone, for the most part; he did not suggest that I use my Home Owner's insur. Yes, they did take that long to let me know of the theft. I don't know that Mr. H. apologized exactly or if he said the repair had been accomplished before the theft. Surprisingly, while I was talking with him I mentioned the AVS Forum, saying I would want to research the 290 before I would even consider his offer. He never mentioned that I would find this thread of which he is a part.

I too thought that they should be a better deal for my 2 month wait and loss of property than what they were offering (a rebuilt 272 or a new 290 at a discount). I found Mr. H. to be rather myopic and less concerned about retaining a good customer and creating good will than he was about getting out of his mess cheaply.

Have you spoken to Mr. H. again. It is unfortunate that Knoll put a salesman in charge of dealing with this disaster rather than a PR or Customer Service person. Big mistake to my mind.

I want to research the 290 before I consider his offer. Please do keep me posted on your progress.

PS Yes, my power supply quit on me, or so said the tech support fellow. He said that it was the result of the unit's power supply always being on even when the projector is turned off. He suggested that after the repair that I unplug the unit after each use to extend the life of the new power supply. I wrote Darren as you suggested.

He suggested that after the repair that I unplug the unit after each use to extend the life of the new power supply.

Oh good God.

This is the greatest thread i have ever read on forum.. i am falling of my chair laughing! What a good read! This is in no way intended to belittle your dilemna, but the commentary is fabulous. Please keep this thread alive it is great!
For the record, i have owned the Sony Pearl, which had problems and could not be repaired(within 1 year warranty). As a replacement i was given a ruby!! (older model, but more expensive etc., and finally after I complained to Sony that it was too big and did not fit in the custom soffit i built, they replaced it with a brand new Black pearl. No excessive complaining required! Now that's customer service. Good Luck and keep us posted.

This is the greatest thread i have ever read on forum.. i am falling of my chair laughing! What a good read! This is in no way intended to belittle your dilemna, but the commentary is fabulous. Please keep this thread alive it is great!
For the record, i have owned the Sony Pearl, which had problems and could not be repaired(within 1 year warranty). As a replacement i was given a ruby!! (older model, but more expensive etc., and finally after I complained to Sony that it was too big and did not fit in the custom soffit i built, they replaced it with a brand new Black pearl. No excessive complaining required! Now that's customer service. Good Luck and keep us posted.

I went back and read it again, and I think the funniest things in this thread by far are:

1) The long off-topic rant about Toyota and Chevy
2) The fact that Richard Knoll offered to help the forum out by providing technical advice, should we so desire.

How much did they want to charge you for the update?

See:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Knoll_Systems-HD290.htm


There are other machines that you might also look into. AVS can help you in this regard.

One approach is to get them to give you something for it and then see what you can buy on the open market. The prices for 720P machines have fallen shockingly. I would be very reluctant to pay them any money for a new machine.

Thank you for your input. I really don't know how they are going to resolve this, but one thought I had that might be a win for all would be for me to buy a HDP420 (Infocus IN82) from them if they would give me a very good price under these unusual circumstances. This PJ seems to receive good reviews here at AVS. Any thoughts?
Thank you for your help.

Also they should change insurance co who advised them that owner's ins. should cover the stolen item.
There is a very good possibility that the unit is NOT repaired and all the story is a cover up. :) They can't repair it.:D

This sounds very likely as they are not the OEM. Probably don't have a competent technical staff and they may have damaged the projector beyond repair trying to fix it.

And everyone is assuming this company has an insurnace policy? Suppose they don't. They may be financially strapped and can't afford a full featured insurance policy.

Surprisingly, while I was talking with him I mentioned the AVS Forum, saying I would want to research the 290 before I would even consider his offer.
If they are asking $1K for it (i.e. the compensation for your FP plus an additional $1K), then you are probably better off turning it down. The 720Ps dropped dramatically in price, including the IF 7210, which is a better unit than the 290. In essence they are coming out ahead, because they are not compensating you for your machine, and they are getting more for that projector than they most likely would from a re-seller (especially since you can get better for that amount as a consumer, not a re-seller).

If I were cynical, I would believe this might be a new business strategy for manufacturers to clear inventory and make greater profits.

If they are asking $1K for it (i.e. the compensation for your FP plus an additional $1K), then you are probably better off turning it down. The 720Ps dropped dramatically in price, including the IF 7210, which is a better unit than the 290. In essence they are coming out ahead, because they are not compensating you for your machine, and they are getting more for that projector than they most likely would from a re-seller (especially since you can get better for that amount as a consumer, not a re-seller).

If I were cynical, I would believe this might be a new business strategy for manufacturers to clear inventory and make greater profits.

i hope no one minds if i BUMP this thread :D

i hope no one minds if i BUMP this thread :D

re-bump. id like to hear how the story ends.

i hope no one minds if i BUMP this thread :D
Well, the scene has not played out yet. I am still working with Knoll. Let's see how they respond to their "victims" of crime.

Well, the scene has not played out yet. I am still working with Knoll. Let's see how they respond to their "victims" of crime.

Be careful or they'll accuse you of the crime. Blackmail has already been mentioned at least once.

bump,

a number of us are curious as to what happened here?

bump,

a number of us are curious as to what happened here?

I am still working with Knoll to get a replacement. Surprisingly, they do not want to settle with me until they have settled with their insurance company. Meantime, I am projector-less, but will keep you all informed as to how Knoll handles this situation.

I am still working with Knoll to get a replacement. Surprisingly, they do not want to settle with me until they have settled with their insurance company. Meantime, I am projector-less, but will keep you all informed as to how Knoll handles this situation.

Sounds to me like the company is strapped for cash. What their insurance company decides to do should have no bearing on what the correct "customer service policy" should be in a situation like this, and the only reason I can imagine that it's being treated as a prereq is because they need the money before they can compensate you, which explains why they've been so resistant up to this point.

This has really turned into a lot of unnecessary bad pub for knoll. I mean, I can't imagine that anyone who has read this thread will want to do future business with a company that comes across as irresponsible, combative, and broke!

Infocus is broke and near death.

Knoll just slaps their name on an Infocus product with a little tweaking.

So you do the math about Knoll systems prospects in the future.

bump,

a number of us are curious as to what happened here?

Still working through the BBB and CEDIA channels. Knoll essentially telling the BBB that it won't cave in to my "extortion" attempts and "unreasonable demands" They say I've posted "gross untruths" (I think that's a nice way of saying lies) and that they are "considering rescinding" their previous offers.... Guess that means I would not be able to pay the $400 for the repairs I'm not sure were ever made in order to get a rebuilt "mostly new" replacement machine I don't want :D. Knoll told the BBB that "everyone else" has been happy to accept their offers. Hmmm, maybe I am the only stubborn one left after all...

Actually am starting to get a little bored and impatient and am anxious to kick it to the next level. But, I have to wait until the BBB finalizes and to hear back on my CEDIA complaint before I file suit. My attorney says it seems to be a pretty cut and dry case and would be happy to take it on contingency.

I'll keep you posted.

Infocus is broke and near death.

Knoll just slaps their name on an Infocus product with a little tweaking.

So you do the math about Knoll systems prospects in the future.

Good point.

Still working through the BBB and CEDIA channels. Knoll essentially telling the BBB that it won't cave in to my "extortion" attempts and "unreasonable demands" They say I've posted "gross untruths" (I think that's a nice way of saying lies) and that they are "considering rescinding" their previous offers.... Guess that means I would not be able to pay the $400 for the repairs I'm not sure were ever made in order to get a rebuilt "mostly new" replacement machine I don't want :D. Knoll told the BBB that "everyone else" has been happy to accept their offers. Hmmm, maybe I am the only stubborn one left after all...

Actually am starting to get a little bored and impatient and am anxious to kick it to the next level. But, I have to wait until the BBB finalizes and to hear back on my CEDIA complaint before I file suit. My attorney says it seems to be a pretty cut and dry case and would be happy to take it on contingency.

I'll keep you posted.

Hopefully it doesn't come to legal action, but given the relatively minor dollar amount and the fact that you have a lawyer willing to work on contingency, I'd say you're in a good position if it should come to that. Please do let us know how this turns out!

Dear Forum Members-

Thought it would be appropriate to let you know this debacle with Knoll has finally been resolved.

Knoll sent me my check for the value of my stolen machine and I just put it into my account yesterday.

Special thanks to rlsmith who some months back alerted me to a special WOOT deal on the screenplay 7210. Turned out Woot is a full 2 minutes from my house and I was able to purchase the 7210 for less than the settlement amount - so all things considered, it worked out well.

Thank you members for all your interest and help.

Bill

I too have finally finished up with Knoll. They sent me a new 290 model. They would not give me a 292 which has the DarkChip3, which I think they should have done under the circumstances. But, I do have a brand new projector and bulb that is, I guess, better than the one I had. I had to remount the whole thing due to shape differences and spend a lot of time fooling around with setup. Knoll could have made some good PR out of this theft, but they had the wrong people working on it (sales rather than customer relations). I do not feel ripped off, but I do feel I lost a lot of my time as a result of an accident that occurred at the Knoll facility. Unfortunately the Knoll rep. did not understand that I expected to end up better after all the headaches and loss of use (3 months +) than I started.
All in all, things worked out OK.
Richard

over 40 years of experience and only 4 posts to his name and he is offering advise.hmmmm!

well now I am tuned into this sega. It is interesting.

I guess I should of finish reading before I posted. I was thru 2 pages then I posted. I skip to the end and found out the outcome to this 3 page party. :rolleyes:

Glad it worked out for both of you.

I'm glad it worked out. It sounds like it worked out better than any freight damage claim I have ever submitted (lots of those). :)