Hi there,

does anybody have some insights what happened to the announced "Über-Projector" from projection design (3-chip DLP, 50.000:1 contrast, 8000 Ansi Lumen, ...)?

It already won awards http://uk.cinenow.com/articles/7633-projectiondesign-m80-3-chip-dlp-wins-key-cedia-award, but on the projection design homepage there isn't a word about this device. Not under products, news, whatever.

Did anybody see this machine at a show? Does it exist? Are the specifications remotely realistic? I would even be happy with a quarter of the announced brightness and contrast.... :)

Realistic..........no., but even half would be amazing. I am waiting for some info but its like getting blood from a stone.

I am waiting eagerly for this baby.

What will this one run... Can mere mortals afford it?

What will this one run... Can mere mortals afford it?

Probably only Art and OB!!!@@@

Probably only Art and OB!!!@@@

Ive heard 2 figures $50k and $75k.

This worries me slightly as those prices look very low for that performance.

Im hoping for info this week or next, and will report or not, as the case may be.

the m 80 is very likely delayed.

they will use the dc4 chips and they have to wait some months
for the chips.
the also add a adaptive iris (very likely in the optic) to get from the possible nativ 6000 to 7000:1 cr.the round 50000:1.

the m 80 is very likely delayed.

they will use the dc4 chips and they have to wait some months
for the chips.
the also add a adaptive iris (very likely in the optic) to get from the possible nativ 6000 to 7000:1 cr.the round 50000:1.

I cant wait to see this machine.

the m 80 is very likely delayed.

they will use the dc4 chips and they have to wait some months
for the chips.
the also add a adaptive iris (very likely in the optic) to get from the possible nativ 6000 to 7000:1 cr.the round 50000:1.

Wolfgang,
If it gets that kind of performance it would certainly be worth the wait ! This sounds like the TI demo machine for CEDIA. I say we will see it in a room more like a theater and a 20' wide screen.

Art

Wolfgang,
If it gets that kind of performance it would certainly be worth the wait ! This sounds like the TI demo machine for CEDIA. I say we will see it in a room more like a theater and a 20' wide screen.

Art

Are you getting an itch?

That thing was crushing blacks like crazy last cedia. UHP lamp driven 3dlp color does not hit primaries of rec 709. Why not demand that of a projector first before blindingly following the on/off spec.?

http://cineramax.com/CES_2008/SUPERKONTRAST-ColorSpace.jpg

Are you getting an itch?

I hope you will be at my funeral when the itch stopped.:D

Art

That thing was crushing blacks like crazy last cedia. UHP lamp driven 3dlp color does not hit primaries of rec 709. Why not demand that of a projector first before blindingly following the on/off spec.?

http://cineramax.com/CES_2008/SUPERKONTRAST-ColorSpace.jpg

FFS max, its just being looked at.

Whats your radius for installs, out of interest?

I hope you will be at my funeral when the itch stopped.:D

Art

I hear you.

They'll need to prise that remote from my cold dead fingers.:)

:)

If Art went to a M80, I'd be in line for his 'not as good' HT5000 :D.

most high end pr. can do today bigger than Rec.709 and also some
cheap consumer pr. can do that.

Not Sim, and probably not PD. Their primaries are way off. I think it is more difficult to 3dlp when there is no xenon.

LCOS yes. Any cheapie does more but it is neither controlled nor linear (you need calibration).

Not Sim, and probably not PD. Their primaries are way off..

What utterly uninformed effluent.

You never answered my question earlier......What is your install radius.

Utter garbage.

You never answered my question earlier......What is your install radius.

Totally missed it, I was running around all day.

San Simeon Ca, Las Vegas NV,Vail, Aspen, Halifax Nova Scotia, Stockholm, Baar Switzerland, Jedda Saudi Arabia, Miami, Naples, Acapulco,Saint Thomas USVI, Caracas, Santiago, Florianopolis Brazil, Blumenau Brazil, Curitiba Brazil. Not exactly a radius though. Looks like we may have a forum member from Australia exploring the Dynaudio/Barco route, I'd like that.

Nowadays with the internet is very easy to have reliable systems in remote outposts, of course you do need some local installation talent, but that is ubiquitous. I was surprised how well the Nova Scotia thing went, we shipped everything to a sail yacht in Maine, and north it went. Same with those complex installs in the south of Brazil, a chain of referrals from 15 years ago that is still going, that huge dci rear projection setup: 3 years later and the guy is happy as hell and now wants to upgrade to a full Bel-air circuit kit, turns out his childhood friend owns most of the movie theaters in South America. The dci prints don't have the subtitles embedded unto the film, they are switchable off/spanish/portuguese, the sound tracks are identical to ours.

http://www.kinoplex.com.br/ click on proximos lancamentos

Some of the movies are a bit delayed compared to our releases, but when you consider that he can get in for free, except the gear, it's a no brainer.

I met with a bunch of Brazilians yesterday, they were bragging they have HD via Itunes, 1,000 movies. I shook my head and explained that that is not really hd, that it is a bit bigger than a dvd, then one of the teenagers said a dvd is 4-6 gigabytes, apple movie hd is like 7-8 gigabytes, I said blue ray is 30 gigabytes, then paused,and said the the BelAir Circuit films are 300 gigabytes.

Both of the big boys leaned back while assimilating the epiphany,and said we want that.

Totally missed it, I was running around all day.

San Simeon Ca, Las Vegas NV,Vail, Aspen, Halifax Nova Scotia, Stockholm, Baar Switzerland, Jedda Saudi Arabia, Miami, Naples, Acapulco,Saint Thomas USVI, Caracas, Santiago, Florianopolis Brazil, Blumenau Brazil, Curitiba Brazil. Not exactly a radius though. Looks like we may have a forum member from Australia exploring the Dynaudio/Barco route, I'd like that.

Nowadays with the internet is very easy to have reliable systems in remote outposts, of course you do need some local installation talent, but that is ubiquitous. I was surprised how well the Nova Scotia thing went, we shipped everything to a sail yacht in Maine, and north it went. Same with those complex installs in the south of Brazil, a chain of referrals from 15 years ago that is still going, that huge dci rear projection setup: 3 years later and the guy is happy as hell and now wants to upgrade to a full Bel-air circuit kit, turns out his childhood friend owns most of the movie theaters in South America. The dci prints don't have the subtitles embedded unto the film, they are switchable off/spanish/portuguese, the sound tracks are identical to ours.

http://www.kinoplex.com.br/ click on proximos lancamentos

Some of the movies are a bit delayed compared to our releases, but when you consider that he can get in for free, except the gear, it's a no brainer.

I met with a bunch of Brazilians yesterday, they were bragging they have HD via Itunes, 1,000 movies. I shook my head and explained that that is not really hd, that it is a bit bigger than a dvd, then one of the teenagers said a dvd is 4-6 gigabytes, apple movie hd is like 7-8 gigabytes, I said blue ray is 30 gigabytes, then paused,and said the the BelAir Circuit films are 300 gigabytes.

Both of the big boys leaned back while assimilating the epiphany,and said we want that.

Thanks.

I modified my post above just prior to your reply. I think its rather more poetic:D:D

Cold M you have to understand one thing, these primaries are f_cking serious business. They have to be measured with an option loaded spectrum radiometer, not that cheap crap that passes for color analysers.

It has to be either a Photo research or Minolta, and it needs to be upgraded and maintained at the 5nm wavelength accuracy, and not the 8nm accuracy.

I know 3 people with this kind of instrumentation. I assure you that NO UHP 3dlp will pass that test, even my beloved Digital projection with filtering at the lamp, and even the dc4 models, they will not do a full rec 709 primaries (at 5nm).

just talk with a vip from projector design.

he confirm the unit will have a adaptive iris in the optik.

they not can confirm today because this unit is under development
the 50k:1 cr. and 8000 lumen but they say that
the unit will do this or close to this numbers.:)

there will be 2 differnt models and the one with the adaptiv iris is
planned for sept.08.

just talk with a vip from projector design.

he confirm the unit will have a adaptive iris in the optik.

they not can confirm today because this unit is under development
the 50k:1 cr. and 8000 lumen but they say that
the unit will do this or close to this numbers.:)

there will be 2 differnt models and the one with the adaptiv iris is
planned for sept.08.

Danke.

A front runner emerges.

just talk with a vip from projector design.

he confirm the unit will have a adaptive iris in the optik.

they not can confirm today because this unit is under development
the 50k:1 cr. and 8000 lumen but they say that
the unit will do this or close to this numbers.:)

there will be 2 differnt models and the one with the adaptiv iris is
planned for sept.08.

Thank you for the information!

that huge dci rear projection setup

Pictures please? They haven't been found here for a long time, never found/seen them. You promised to put some up, when you complained your installs were being discriminated against in the top 10 thread, but seems you have been too busy.

With all due respect, besides your opinion Cineramax, where would others in this community direct us to find objective facts to corroborate the below assertion?

Cold M you have to understand one thing, these primaries are f_cking serious business. They have to be measured with an option loaded spectrum radiometer, not that cheap crap that passes for color analysers.

It has to be either a Photo research or Minolta, and it needs to be upgraded and maintained at the 5nm wavelength accuracy, and not the 8nm accuracy.

I know 3 people with this kind of instrumentation. I assure you that NO UHP 3dlp will pass that test, even my beloved Digital projection with filtering at the lamp, and even the dc4 models, they will not do a full rec 709 primaries (at 5nm).

With all due respect, besides your opinion Cineramax, where would others in this community direct us to find objective facts to corroborate the below assertion?

Will dig up, Odyssey will confirm and this guy meier the calibrator can give you all the technicals.

Pictures please? They haven't been found here for a long time, never found/seen them. You promised to put some up, when you complained your installs were being discriminated against in the top 10 thread, but seems you have been too busy.

Don't have any pictures, I will request them.

http://cineramax.com/images/Rear-2.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/PM-165-Inch-2.jpg

Cold M you have to understand one thing, these primaries are f_cking serious business. They have to be measured with an option loaded spectrum radiometer, not that cheap crap that passes for color analysers.

It has to be either a Photo research or Minolta, and it needs to be upgraded and maintained at the 5nm wavelength accuracy, and not the 8nm accuracy.

I know 3 people with this kind of instrumentation. I assure you that NO UHP 3dlp will pass that test, even my beloved Digital projection with filtering at the lamp, and even the dc4 models, they will not do a full rec 709 primaries (at 5nm).You have been saying this since I've been on this forum, and I don't buy it. I don't believe these ultra expensive meters are necessary at all. I believe it's an elitist view that's not backed up with any proof that I've seen. Show the proof. They might be super accurate, but they are not absolutely required to dial in the primaries and secondaries with a CMS system like the RadianceXD. Just my opinion, of course.


Bob

Appreciate that very much.

Will dig up, Odyssey will confirm and this guy meier the calibrator can give you all the technicals.

This was started by Joe Kane that said that for said 3dlp you needed a spectrum readiometer based on the wavelength accuracy, he said this oh 3 years ago or so. Further research into the matter yielded that in fact for 3dlp, in order to measure the orimaries correctly one needed a 5nm tolerance calibration option in these higher end spectrum radiometers. No 5nm precision, 2dlp calibration=MYTH.

These dpi, runco and sim projectors 3dlp projectors based on uhp lamps can't hit the rec 709 primaries at 5 nm, the xenon can.

These dpi, runco and sim projectors 3dlp projectors based on uhp lamps can't hit the rec 709 primaries at 5 nm, the xenon can.
With the new CMS's that Sim2 and others now have, or with the Lumagen RadianceXD and its CMS, the Sim2 projectors can and do hit the 709 primaries. And, when they are dialed in close like this, I don't believe you need a mega-dollar meter to measure them accurately. To measure the original ultra-wide primaries with accuracy, ok. But not when you have the ability to dial in the primaries such that they are near their targets, and near the point where the less-expensive meters are calibrated to work.

There was a discussion of this point in the calibration forum recently.

Bob

most of the pro'ish devices have no issues hitting the primaries.

there are three obstacles in getting there.

1. Having sufficient controls onthe device to get it there as a "default"
2. Getting sufficent resolution on the measuring gear. THis one is a red herring because as nice as it is to brag to your friends that you are within 1 nm of REC 709 or whatever.... most humans cannot percieve that close a difference. having said that, if a calibrator happens to be using a decent spectral radiometer, it does infer that he knows quite a bit more about it and at the very least takes it seriously.

3. the final issue is more one of staying there once you are calibrated. xenon stays fairly colour accurate in its life. other lamps colour drift. how much... it varies. so if you have a pristine calibration and as the lamp ages it drifts, then something needs to be done to bring it back.


Having said all that, if you go waving your 5 nm calibration anymore i am going to have to beat you with it. stating a proper DCI colour calibration really is sufficient. And i would lay money you are taking Joe out of COntext.

color management cannot make up for a bad primary.

Odyssey where are you when I need you?

color management cannot make up for a bad primary.You're kidding, right? A CMS with full gamut control, like the RadianceXD has or the new Sim2's, can correct the primaries for sure. I've done it.

Bob

You think you have done it. IT IS AN UTTER IMPOSSIBILITY. Keep on crediting your Mickey Mouse instrumentation, you are living a big lie. Let Odyssey and meier explain why, if you have no 5nm accuracy you might as well calibrate by eye. Odyssey has close to a quarter million dollars in instrumentation, he is a maven in the medical imaging field. When he talks you children hide under your mama's skirts. This has been discussed before, sorry if you feel duped by the ISF. Welcome to the group.

Two separate topics are being mentioned. The first, that the SIM2 and similar models can't reach Rec709 primaries is incorrect. If anything, their primaries are more saturated than Rec709, but they do need a CMS system to be properly calibrated.

The second topic concerns the instrument needed for accurate primary measurement. Forum member umr (Jeff Meier) is the expert on the subject and has detailed posts comparing various instruments, including the Photo Research PR-650. His conclusion is that the PR-650 is not good enough and that you need a spectral bandwidth of no more than 5nm for accuracy. The PR-650 8nm spectral bandwidth is good enough to measure white, but the primaries in these projectors are too narrow and need 5nm or less. This is Jeff's opinion and I agree with him. Again, he has a lot of detail in his posts and a search should find them.

There's so much information here, and it will take months to mine it. Where do you suggest beginning herein?

Colour accuracy is not negotiable to those who buy the DLP Barcos, Christies & NECs but I've heard a few professional colour shops talk about hairsbreadth degrees of colour accuracy using commonly available high end home theater equipment. (Not necessarily calibration gear.) That's the intrigue; it makes sense that this technology becomes more widely available & more affordable as time goes on.

Aside from the colourful metaphor which often can appear like opinion, I'm sure many of us are interested here in the science, not the subjectivity of an experience with brand or other product attributes. Hopefully we can have a civil discussion.

When Art's sim2 5000 demo the color primaries were off. You mentioned that no degree of cms would correct for that. What changed?

On a Barco note, the projector is hitting 860 ansi and 3,500 sequential, this is with a .53 aperture reduction and a 1.6kw lamp. We will monitor the heat for a 6 month period. Round 2 we will try the .63 aperture reduction, and a 2kw lamp, repeat monitoring and maybe finally the 3kw with the lens iris. Which by the way I lost the link to the lens technician in Delaware? If you could please pm? Thanks.

You think you have done it. IT IS AN UTTER IMPOSSIBILITY. Keep on crediting your Mickey Mouse instrumentation, you are living a big lie. Let Odyssey and meier explain why, if you have no 5nm accuracy you might as well calibrate by eye. Odyssey has close to a quarter million dollars in instrumentation, he is a maven in the medical imaging field. When he talks you children hide under your mama's skirts. This has been discussed before, sorry if you feel duped by the ISF. Welcome to the group.
This is such an incredibly condescending post that it is not worthy of a reply. You have no idea what instrumentation I own or have access to for starters. You also don't know who I am, or what knowledge I have. I've been in these elitist discussions before and they go no place, so I'm taking the high road out of here.

Bob

Sorry I confused you with someone else form Georgia that keeps on saying he has calibrated many sim2 projectors with a laptop based system.

It is elitist and it is very sad that it is, that to measure the primaries in a digital cinema projector a pr-65 needs a major upgrade. It does not come more elitist than that. I am just a messenger.

this tread as many others turn to a "color discusion tread".

i am ok with that but i not like to read it in all treads
again and again.

open up a only color measurment tread is may a good
solution.

It is elitist and it is very sad that it is, that to measure the primaries in a digital cinema projector a pr-65 needs a major upgrade. It does not come more elitist than that. I am just a messenger.

I think you might say that the PR 650 only gets one in the ball park as more accurate devices are available and employed by forum members.

Art

When it comes to measuring colors accurately 5nm bandwidth is a big deal and so is sensitivity and flexibility. I have looked at the results from various products including the PR-650, 5m PR-670, 8nm PR-670, Minolta CA-210, Minolta CS-200, Progressive Labs CA-6X, various Sencore products, Philips color analyzer, Datacolor color analyzers, GMB Lightspex and other GMB products. I have also tested many of these tools because I have either owned them, been allowed by the manufacturer to test them or had friends who have owned them.

My experience is that a tool that has the ability to very accurately measure color for these applications should have the following properties.

1. Be a spectrophotometric based device
2. 5nm or less bandwidth
3. The ability to directly measure luminance (fL or cd/m2)
4. 256 or more sensors
5. Provide accurate color measurements down to at least 0.5 fL
6. Measure 380nm to 780nm spectrum

I know of only three devices that meet all of these requirements today and they are the 5nm version of the PR-670, the Minolta CS-1000 and the Minolta CS-2000. The GMB Lightspex is a very strong contender and is very close to the others. It does miss the mark with sensitivity and does not quite reach the spectral range required to fully match the CIE XYZ color system. The results from the Lightspex can be impressive though not quite technically as sound as the others.

I also highly value the attachments available for the Photo Research tools that allow one to eliminate or minimize the impact of ambient light for some applications.

Thanks WJM for putting this to bed. Is this limited to 3dlp or will it also apply to plasma?

Thanks WJM for putting this to bed. Is this limited to 3dlp or will it also apply to plasma?

It applies to everything once you start looking at primaries and secondaries. White is a little easier, but even that is a challenge at times. It all depends on what the instrument was intended for and source light spectrum. Some will do well on white for LCD and CRT because that is what they were calibrated to read. That is how some of the filter based tools can work well for white on a few devices.

I find LCoS and DLP LED are in general the most difficult to measure even for white. You can easily end up worse than you started with without an exceptional tool on these even if you limit your adjustments to white. I find many displays are close to the values posted here for primaries and secondaries. When people adjust based on those measurements and no understanding they are going to end up with an inferior look to what they could have had.

Here are examples of results measured with my PR-670 versus another popular professional tool. This display was intially calibrated by another individual with a good reputation, but a poor instrument. I then recalibrated it with my setup. The original calibration attempted to correct both gray scale, primaries and secondaries and made a horrible mess of things.

Thank you so much for the information. Much appreciated.

Jeff did my orphaned Brillian 1080p 65 inch LCOS RP display!!

Jeff,

What about the Photo Research PR-705 and PR-680?

Jeff,

What about the Photo Research PR-705 and PR-680?

The 705 would meet the requirements. It is very similar to the high end Minolta's in that it uses a chilled sensor to reduce noise. The 5nm 680 lacks sensitivity at low light levels when measuring color.

MSRP for the M80 is set to be $80k,at the top end.

Hai,

This is not the normal area i post in but coldmachine asked me to tell what i have heared during a presentation aimed at dealers. I posted it in the M25 thread so will add some more info that might make more sense for you $20000 people.

------- repost ----
The M25 will be pulled from the market. They will split their range into a seperate HT unit. The new line 'the aurora borealis line' will consist of 4 machines for now. All updates of models already out new software new colorwheels (if needed) and newly designed and handpicked lens (signature range, they will test all of them the rest will go to the dataline i guess?). Range will start at $3500 at and end at $80.000 for the updated M80 prototype. The M25 will be replaced by 2 models (one shipping in a month the other in sept).

M20 replacement (720)

M25 replacement (spectra i think) 1080p

M25 replacement (300watts bulb version 30%+) 1080.

M80 replacement 3 dlp, sllly specs to attack the 2 top brands (not my words).

They will drop the color options all will get a aurora paintjob (unless a client asks).

No internet sales.

New network software, installers/pd can track stuff like bulblife, temp. of parts of the units.

Prices will go up about 10% for the enduser.
---------------

For the whole range the 10% mostly seems to be aimed at the enduser the price for dealers will be about the same. But they seem to be thinking dealers will need todo more for end users. In the discussions i heard things like all (big) dealers following cources at PD HQ. Doing isf's for end users at given intervals. The whole thing what they want is providing a service to get the 'best' image not looking at specs and prices but the end result for clients. I know this sounds like alot of marketing but thats how i took it.

They already spit the data part and ht part at shows. Next events they will be presented at different but close too eachother boots. Had the feeling they decided on alot of this days before.

The $3500 to $80000 was for the 'range' i am not 100% sure thats the price for the replacement/updated M80 (forgot its name but its light/aurora related as they all will be). The comment from W.Mayer seems to make sense since there will be a huge gap in the range. Prices seem to be

720p -> $3500
1080p-low output -> $10k
1080p-high output -> $13k
1080p 3dlp -> 80k

To me it makes sense they will split the M80 into 2 models indeed a gap of 60k seems alot maybe the model W.Mayer talked about at 30k or 40k ?

They took along time to talk about optics and claimed they already are putting more time/care in than most and that these signature lenses will be engraved as such and checked against the specs at their HQ.

Hope this helps and adds something to what you already knew.

Daniel.

The M80/F80 are top of my want list, but I wonder what $80k will also bag you from competitors around September '08... PD are going to have to deliver some serious specs, and not just brightness, to justify that cost...

Mark

Hai,

This is not the normal area i post in but coldmachine asked me to tell what i have heared during a presentation aimed at dealers. I posted it in the M25 thread so will add some more info that might make more sense for you $20000 people.



Thanks for taking the time to post and keep us better informed. I appreciate it.
Each snippet i hear seems to further secure this machines pace as front runner for my new HT

The M80/F80 are top of my want list, but I wonder what $80k will also bag you from competitors around September '08... PD are going to have to deliver some serious specs, and not just brightness, to justify that cost...

Mark

Yea a lot of money. The issue I have with such expenditures is that you want it to be at or near the top for a couple of years anyway and resale will likely be ten cents on the dollar because of the pace of improvement at lower cost being the rule.

The lack of internet sales, of course ,is another problem IMO since deals will be few and far.

I do hope that this will be the CEDIA demo unit for TI but this won't allow much evaluation but would be fun.

Art

Yea a lot of money. The issue I have with such expenditures is that you want it to be at or near the top for a couple of years anyway and resale will likely be ten cents on the dollar because of the pace of improvement at lower cost being the rule.

The lack of internet sales, of course ,is another problem IMO since deals will be few and far.

I do hope that this will be the CEDIA demo unit for TI but this won't allow much evaluation but would be fun.

Art

Do I detect the beginnings of an itch?

Do I detect the beginnings of an itch?

Must scratch that itch, must scratch that itch (image of my pug on the floor with that paw furiously working):D

Art

80k seams a good joke.

for this price you get a big cinema 3 chip dlp with xenon and up to
25000 lumen.

it may wishful thinking from projektiondesign but ther is no way they
can sale it for this price.

there are 2 other companys working on a very similar
unit and this will help to get the price to a reasonability level.

but on the other side
you can also purchase a christie hd6k from runco and pay almost double
price.
some people by it from them because of all the service and install runco do for them and this is somehow also ok.

Wolfgang,
I think the implication is that the $75k or $80k is the top model. I agree that there is too big a jump in the range and would expect an intermediate.

If the proposed specs were actually delivered, and thats another issue altogether, in tandem with the optics alluded to, I think that an msrp of $75k or $80k could very easily be a realistic figure. I hope not, but i don't see it as unrealistic.

speak soon.

Personally, $80K for a digital that would be used on HT sized screen (10 - 15 ft) is far overpriced. I would imagine similar performance should be available at 1/2 that. What are they doing to a 3 chipper to rationalize such cost. The specs sound great but improvements that large rarely move so fast. Could be hype.

Seriously though Jeff , if the specs are even close this would be the John Holmes of front projection. It could loaf on a 15' wide screen.

Art

Agreed... but technological improvements / spec increases seem awfully big relative to the other reference PJs. But....I'll certainly wait and see...

Seriously though Jeff , if the specs are even close this would be the John Holmes of front projection. It could loaf on a 15' wide screen.

Art
Indeed. We may all need to sell our rather flaccid Ron Jeremys to keep up.:D:D

I seriously don't think this is targeting 10-15ft screens.

If it delivered 3000, its still well over 20fl on a 20ft screen of 1.3 gain

Indeed. We may all need to sell our rather flaccid Ron Jeremys to keep up.:D:D

I seriously don't think this is targeting 10-15ft screens.

Yes, you are right. When I put in the 18' screen this should be at the top of the list at this point.

Art

Indeed. We may all need to sell our rather flaccid Ron Jeremys to keep up.:D:D

I seriously don't think this is targeting 10-15ft screens.

If it delivered 3000, its still well over 20fl on a 20ft screen of 1.3 gain

My problem is that I have a 15' wide ~0.8 gain screen - so I need LOTS of lumens, and even 3000 isn't enough. With the 2500+ available from my Cineo 3 I cannot close the iris fully and maintain a decent peak brightness from my throw of 26'. So I'm not getting anywhere near max contrast ratio from this device and my new bulbs dim quickly forcing me to open the iris up as the hours mount. I need the 5000+ lumens of the M80/F80, plus the amazing contrast ratio they are quoting. This will give me enough light for maximum contrast and also enough spare light to handle bulb ageing more gracefully...

Mark

Wolfgang,
I think the implication is that the $75k or $80k is the top model. I agree that there is too big a jump in the range and would expect an intermediate.

If the proposed specs were actually delivered, and thats another issue altogether, in tandem with the optics alluded to, I think that an msrp of $75k or $80k could very easily be a realistic figure. I hope not, but i don't see it as unrealistic.

speak soon.

as i said 2 other companys working on a similar model that will have
"almost" the same specs and that will have some impact for the m80
price for sure.

dont forget the upcomming sony 4k consumer pr.:)
i am sure that this model will have "not a far later" release date as
the m80 or the other 2 dlp pr.and that
will have also a big impact.

Mark,

The best unit out there at the moment for 5000+ lumen and 5,000+ contrast would be the Digital Projection Titan Reference.

My view
1 A projector should have oversaturated physical primaries with narrow spectral bandwidths.
2 A CMS should be implemented so that for a 100 IRE red signal a virtual primary is created that measures at the point in space x,y,Y for red dictated by the standard.
3 Wider than wave length pure physical primaries swell the color point to a "color sphere", do they not?
4 As has been noted earlier errors in measuring the physical primary will move the virtual primary out of the correct position in color space.

The M80 discussion
What is the impressive part?
A about 4-5000 ANSI lumen and a 10000:1 native contrast?
B the addition of a mechanical iris to something that is otherwise comparable with Sim2 HT5000 that increases dynamic range by x5 at the cost of some brightness compression.
Perhaps the extreme end point of the price range has a M80 that is a prosumer "digital cinema" unit with a xenon lamp.

Mark,

The best unit out there at the moment for 5000+ lumen and 5,000+ contrast would be the Digital Projection Titan Reference.

I'm following the Digital Projection stuff too, but the comparatively poor CR doesn't justify the cost, for me at least...

Mark

Perhaps the extreme end point of the price range has a M80 that is a prosumer "digital cinema" unit with a xenon lamp.

There will be an F80 which is the pro version of the M80. According to the preliminary spec sheet I have it will be UHP...

Mark

There will be an F80 which is the pro version of the M80. According to the preliminary spec sheet I have it will be UHP...

Mark

Don't want to confuse any more than needed but these new models will not be the M80 (atleast in name). Guess we need to wait a few weeks what will be in the new line as far as i can see all the first batch of pr is based on the 4 models i have outlined and will be released between end of feb and sept.

Daniel.

Yes, I should perhaps say my info is now a few months old.

Mark

Mark,

The best unit out there at the moment for 5000+ lumen and 5,000+ contrast would be the Digital Projection Titan Reference.


Did they finally release this unit ? Is this the two lamp version ? At CEDIA the 250 didn't have anything close to that number of lumens.

Art

It is a two lamp on a ninety degree in line configuration.

Wolfgang, not sure if they lowered their listprice, since, but with the low value of the dollar these days, 80K USD is less than the EU listprice of the HD-8K. The listprice for which was in the Christie D-Cinema, going-price, range to begin with.

@Danielo - interesting information and not at all surprising following the ISE show last week. The Projection Design booth was opposite from us and we had to practically shoo them away from the Titan Reference!!!

@Mark_H - 5000:1 is near impossible for any PJ to achieve never mind nonsense specification above this (sure you are more than knowledgeable about this). The Titan Reference has some of the best blck levels you will see from any PJ plus 6000 lumens to toss around!

Remember that all DP three chips are designed and built in the UK. I am more than happy to arrange a demo for you at the factory if you want.

Neil

I wonder where a regular joe, like myself ,could get a look at one of these ?

art

Art,

If you're a regular joe, then I hate to think what the rest of us joes are called. :D

We are low Joe's.

@Mark_H - 5000:1 is near impossible for any PJ to achieve never mind nonsense specification above this (sure you are more than knowledgeable about this). The Titan Reference has some of the best blck levels you will see from any PJ plus 6000 lumens to toss around!

For DLP, right? We have other display tech projectors giving double or triple this already... unfortunately (for me) they do not have the lumens I need.

Any kit I am seriously evaluating needs to be demoed in my cinema...

Cheers,

Mark

I wonder where a regular joe, like myself ,could get a look at one of these ?

art


projectiondesign as - Habornveien 53 - 1630 Gamle Fredrikstad - Norway

Mark - I sent you a PM before the site went down. Did you receive or should I resend?

Neil

Neil, I received it, many thanks.

Mark