How many of you owned both a DVD player and VHS player at the same time. Did you watch movies on both? How long did it take you to learn which player to put the tape in and which player to put the disc in? Did you purchase movies for both?

Having two HD formats on disc is much the same. Consumers are, for the most part, not complete idiots. With a little education an informed consumer can easily pick out the correct disc for his/her respective HD player. Having a dual format would be even easier. How many dual VHS/DVD players are in the wild?

Is it really that different from the damn DVD+R/-R crap? I'd say buying the correct disc for HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray is as easy or easier than buying the correct recordable disc to backup your family photos.

There is room for both HDM Disc formats to survive. All the consumers need is a little education and the desire to purchase a player. Software sales will follow.........

Enough of this 'One side must die.' crap!

How many of you owned both a DVD player and VHS player at the same time. Did you watch movies on both? How long did it take you to learn which player to put the tape in and which player to put the disc in? Did you purchase movies for both?

Having two HD formats on disc is much the same. Consumers are, for the most part, not complete idiots. With a little education an informed consumer can easily pick out the correct disc for his/her respective HD player. Having a dual format would be even easier. How many dual VHS/DVD players are in the wild?

Is it really that different from the damn DVD+R/-R crap? I'd say buying the correct disc for HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray is as easy or easier than buying the correct recordable disc to backup your family photos.

There is room for both HDM Disc formats to survive. All the consumers need is a little education and the desire to purchase a player. Software sales will follow.........

Enough of this 'One side must die.' crap!

my last vhs player (a cheapo wal-mart model purchased around 1999 for under $100) crapped out on me around 2001 (i purchased it because the other vhs player i owned crap out on me). i bought a tivo in 2002. i got a dvd-rom drive in a computer i purchased in 1999 (i didn't really watch movies on it, but i believe i did buy the matrix and silence of the lambs in 1999). i got my first dvd player in 2000.

Sorry, but this format war has little to nothing to do with VHS vs. DVD. It's a rehash of the SACD/DVD-A wars, and those turned out poorly for everyone. It should have been one format, and it still needs to be. The consumers are saying it with their dollars (or lack thereof), the studios are saying it in public and private, and every major hardware manufacturer other than Toshiba has been saying it. No one has bothered to educate, and no one will.

I'd rather 1 format with a fighting chance than 2 with none.

How many of you owned both a DVD player and VHS player at the same time. Having two HD formats on disc is much the same.

There is room for both HDM Disc formats to survive. All the consumers need is a little education and the desire to purchase a player. Software sales will follow.........


I think this is a flawed analogy. A better analogy to DVD-and-VHS is HDM-and-DVD! HDM can/will coexist with DVD, but not IMO until there is a bit more stability: end the format war and finalize the BR spec.

HDM sales would seem to refute your assessment that both can survive. Sales have been poor - in the view of the retailers - with too many consumers sitting on the sidelines awaiting resolution to the 'war'.

Sorry, but this format war has little to nothing to do with VHS vs. DVD. It's a rehash of the SACD/DVD-A wars, and those turned out poorly for everyone. It should have been one format, and it still needs to be. The consumers are saying it with their dollars (or lack thereof), the studios are saying it in public and private, and every major hardware manufacturer other than Toshiba has been saying it. No one has bothered to educate, and no one will.

I'd rather 1 format with a fighting chance than 2 with none.

The OP would be better off if he tried to get people to relate to back when they had both a Beta and VHS VCR...

Um, wait, they didn't, and when one had the majority of shelfspace in the rental shops everyone moved to it.

How many of you owned both a DVD player and VHS player at the same time.

I did.....and the first chance I got I replaced or converted the tapes to DVD. Multiple formats is a pain.

i dont think you can compare VHS to DVD as they are truely diffrent so mixing the formats up would be very difficult.
with BD vs HD i think mixing things up is a lot easyer to do. as both disc look the same as DVD. i work in retail id say 1 out out 15 retured HDM discs is due to folks mixing them up with DVD or the other format. so we have to allow returns of HDM for now as folks are still learning whats what. the person is flaged so they dont do it again thinking were a rental place.

but with dvd +/- R most players and recorders will do both now so its not an issue.
i think at some point all HDM players will play both formats. of course the winning format will be the better player. much like the all in one DVD players. they play DVD best but can also play divx,VCD,CD not as well as the DVD player but its still their.

if duel format players are the norm and both sides won't give in i could see both being sold for some time.
I'd say sony's won the war for now. unless toshibia does some real promoting which they have yet to do. it's fully over. i like HD-DVD better primarily for imports. but if the world becomes blu so will I. as ive got both and could careless at this point

VHS / DVD was a transition period moving from one technology to another. VHS was the main format in everyone's home for 20 years, so it made sense to have dual VHS/DVD players.

HD DVD / Blu Ray is a direct competition of new formats for HDM. How many HD DVD discs are out there - 3.5 million in consumer's hands? How many HD DVD households out there - 750,000? (conservative, since some owners have multiple units and this is with an attached rate of only 5 movies.) In the long run, these numbers are a very tiny drop in the bucket that it's insignificant to the majority of consumers. So instead of a natural progression of DVD to HDM, you'd want CE companies/studios/retailers to waste energy, time, shelf space, etc. just to keep one near-dead format alive?!? The point of moving to one format is to remove market confusion and focus on the growth of HDM instead.

Don't forget, with dual players you're paying for it in higher costs (more R&D, licensing fees to both camps.) It might make sense for Toshiba to salvage something out of the huge loss, but please don't make it worse for everyone else.

The VHS/Beta conflict lasted about 13 years, during which time all studios were supporting both formats (and considered that their obligation). VCR's were also used for time-shifting. Finally, there was no other "game in town" when VHS and Beta were introduced, no legacy format that everyone was already pretty happy with.

Things are very different.

A key difference is that studio exclusivity rules. It also became very clear (especially after the Paramount buyout) that this was a fight-to-the-death format war and only one format would survive. Toshiba's actions in getting Paramount to support HD DVD exclusively set up Warners exclusivity as the next logical step in the process.

Finally, the two formats have the same "use-cases". They are good for the same thing. Why on earth do we need two of them?

Customers understand what is going on. The next group of adopters is waiting right now--there are a lot of them--for an end to the format war with all parties behind the same format.

Your proposal just doesn't work. Sorry.

The VHS/Beta conflict lasted about 13 years, during which time all studios were supporting both formats (and considered that their obligation). VCR's were also used for time-shifting. Finally, there was no other "game in town" when VHS and Beta were introduced, no legacy format that everyone was already pretty happy with.

Things are very different.

A key difference is that studio exclusivity rules. It also became very clear (especially after the Paramount buyout) that this was a fight-to-the-death format war and only one format would survive. Toshiba's actions in getting Paramount to support HD DVD exclusively set up Warners exclusivity as the next logical step in the process.

Finally, the two formats have the same "use-cases". They are good for the same thing. Why on earth do we need two of them?

Customers understand what is going on. The next group of adopters is waiting right now--there are a lot of them--for an end to the format war with all parties behind the same format.

Your proposal just doesn't work. Sorry.

Agreed, after Paramount before Warner it looked like it was going to be a long stalemate, with the only hope being dual-format players or people buying multiple players per TV, that is no longer the case.

Consumers are, for the most part, not complete idiots.

No, they're not idiots but they are confused. I'm guessing you haven't read the stories about people buying an HDTV and assume they're getting HD from an SD source, or the Amazon.com reviews of the people who bought HDM versions of Planet Earth thinking they'd be able to get HD from their DVD players. A lot of people think the digital switch in 2009 is going to make everything HD.

Yes education on the formats is needed, but two formats (DVD and Blu-Ray) will be less confusing than three (DVD, BR and HD DVD.)

How many of you owned both a DVD player and VHS player at the same time. Did you watch movies on both? How long did it take you to learn which player to put the tape in and which player to put the disc in? Did you purchase movies for both?

Having two HD formats on disc is much the same. Consumers are, for the most part, not complete idiots. With a little education an informed consumer can easily pick out the correct disc for his/her respective HD player. Having a dual format would be even easier. How many dual VHS/DVD players are in the wild?

Is it really that different from the damn DVD+R/-R crap? I'd say buying the correct disc for HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray is as easy or easier than buying the correct recordable disc to backup your family photos.

There is room for both HDM Disc formats to survive. All the consumers need is a little education and the desire to purchase a player. Software sales will follow.........

Enough of this 'One side must die.' crap!

It's very possible that 2 format could work but the reality is that it most of the powers that be, i.e. Studios, Retailers, Hardware makers, software vendors etc. don't want 2 formats in the market-place.

Combine that with the fact that interested companies are clearly able come to agreements in private that eliminate unwanted competition in the interest of better profits and it matters not what could work, it simply won't be permitted.

The message has been sent out loud and clear via PR, Marketing and public statements that this is a space where free market competition simply shouldn't be allowed. We are told competition makes sense and benefits consumers in other areas of the market but evidently it's not so in this case and needs to be ended as quickly as possible. Whether it's true or not is a moot point since the companies involved have enough power and influence to make it stick.

It's very possible that 2 format could work but the reality is that it most of the powers that be, i.e. Studios, Retailers, Hardware makers, software vendors etc. don't want 2 formats in the market-place.

Combine that with the fact that interested companies are clearly able come to agreements in private that eliminate unwanted competition in the interest of better profits and it matters not what could work, it simply won't be permitted.

The message has been sent out loud and clear via PR, Marketing and public statements that this is a space where free market competition simply shouldn't be allowed. We are told competition makes sense and benefits consumers in other areas of the market but evidently it's not so in this case and needs to be ended as quickly as possible. Whether it's true or not is a moot point since the companies involved have enough power and influence to make it stick.

You can't get more anti-consumer than that. Companies who conspire in these ways should not be rewarded with support.

I just bought a dual format SVHS DVDrecorder last year. And another VHS DVD player for dad. And there is an SVHS player and a DVD player in the Guest Bedroom.

The tapes still play, the DVDs still play, we still record some stuff to share with friends and family. Some family still have only VHS, all the rest have both. Only one other has HD.

Never got into the beta vhs wars, was too poor then. TV with rabbit ears was it. Four channel audio was pretty good since I picked up bargains here and there.

Dad still has his slide projector and 8mm movie projector too.

It's rather odd seeing the HD DVD supporters grasping at possible reasons for their preferred format to persist. Virtually every single day now, we're seeing more and more shift to Blu-ray in various channels, from retail to studios to related industries, and there appears to be nothing anyone can do at this point to stop it (least of all these pointless arguments on a niche enthusiasts' forum).

There is absolutely no reason to have two incompatible formats that do exactly the same thing, and wishing were otherwise doesn't make it so. Retailers don't want it because it is a very inefficient use of shelf space. Studios don't want it because it's a hassle for both mastering and inventory control. Consumers don't want it because it's confusing.

That doesn't mean that we haven't gotten some silver linings from the format war, but at this point I have to wonder about how detached from reality some of the HD DVD "faithful" have become. I can only imagine how some will react when the tidal wave hits in the coming days/weeks/months.

Frankly, the amount of angst and suffering we see on this forum on a daily basis, and the constant bickering we've seen here and elsewhere for the past two years, are huge reasons why there should never have been two formats to begin with; and they're another big reason why we shouldn't have two formats going forward.

This needs to end. The sooner the better.

Does the phrase "grasping at straws" mean anything to you? :rolleyes:

You can't get more anti-consumer than that. Companies who conspire in these ways should not be rewarded with support.The problem wasn't some crazy anti-consumer conspiracy. The consumers simply weren't making the choice, and those that were chose Blu-ray. They chose more Blu-ray players even though the hardware was more expensive (yes, even before the so-called "artificial" bundling). They chose Blu-ray movies even though the profiles weren't standardized well before the BOGO excuse could explain it away.

I'm sorry if a couple hundred people on the Internet thought they were the crest of a wave, but they obviously weren't. It didn't help that the same people talking about how affordable players are and talking about how awesome the "razors and blades" analogy was were the same people buying two, three, or even 5 additional players. There's no better way to show a studio making software how wrong they were than to artificially inflate a hardware market that already has the software. Even if you believe Warner was paid off, the response from smaller studios and retailers that looked at pre-Warner sales should have set off alarm bells. The sad fact is, the reality that those alarm bells were purposefully ignored is not the fault of the manufacturers, the studios, the retailers, or the non-AVS/HTF/HDD/etc. HDM consumer.

Respectfully, one side must die. For all of the reasons that we are all familiar with.

I was going to post something I had written, but I can see the thread has already turned bad, so I will just wait for the lock. This is getting old.

It's rather odd seeing the HD DVD supporters grasping at possible reasons for their preferred format to persist.

Funny you jump to that conclusion. Care to guess how many HD-DVD's I've purchased thus far? ONE. I don't care if the format dies or not to be honest. I'm simply saying they could both survive, and I don't see Toshiba lying down in a pine box just yet, do you?

My point was this, and this makes my analogy completely legitimate. People are saying the formats are failing because the public is confused. I gave an example showing the public can educate themselves and buy what they need just fine when unbiased information is out there. The problem is the information out there is for the most part biased and uninformative.

Both formats are viable, both have nearly the same number of titles available, and both have a good chance of surviving for a while.

That's it. Nothing more.

Sorry, but this format war has little to nothing to do with VHS vs. DVD. It's a rehash of the SACD/DVD-A wars, and those turned out poorly for everyone. It should have been one format, and it still needs to be. The consumers are saying it with their dollars (or lack thereof), the studios are saying it in public and private, and every major hardware manufacturer other than Toshiba has been saying it. No one has bothered to educate, and no one will.

I'd rather 1 format with a fighting chance than 2 with none.

I agree 100%. Great post!

Funny you jump to that conclusion. Care to guess how many HD-DVD's I've purchased thus far? ONE. I don't care if the format dies or not to be honest. I'm simply saying they could both survive, and I don't see Toshiba lying down in a pine box just yet, do you?

My point was this, and this makes my analogy completely legitimate. People are saying the formats are failing because the public is confused. I gave an example showing the public can educate themselves and buy what they need just fine when unbiased information is out there. The problem is the information out there is for the most part biased and uninformative.

Both formats are viable, both have nearly the same number of titles available, and both have a good chance of surviving for a while.

That's it. Nothing more.

That is when the customer has a CHOICE. :) Unfortunatly the choice was never the customer's on all things HDM, from the on set with studios siding one way or the other. But such are the cards that where dealt and there is nothing that can be done about it now.

This is NOTHING like SACD/DVD-A - those were products looking for a market. Consumers were more than satisfied with CD quality - in fact, they were embracing portable players with lower fidelity. Why? Because for most folks, FM quality is good enough. CD quality is, to them, perfect. The market of people looking to improve on CD fidelity could fit on this forum - in fact, likely constitute much of this forum. Two products looking for a market that does not exist.

BD and HD are notable improvements over SD. Period. As consumers get increasingly large screens, the shortcomings of DVD are apparent. HD and BD blow it away. There is a market, and an increasing one, for a home video product that provides video quality concomitant with their displays. HD and BD are products that want to take hold of that market.

This whole thing can be over quickly, under two conditions - 1) all studios release for all formats, or 2) manufacturers create an affordable dual format player. I have long argued that #2 will be the end of the format war. In fact, I will argue that an early demise of HD will not speed adoption, simply because the BD cost is too high and the formar still unsettled.

But same as SACD/DVD-A? Uh, no...

MEC2

Sorry, but this format war has little to nothing to do with VHS vs. DVD. It's a rehash of the SACD/DVD-A wars, and those turned out poorly for everyone. It should have been one format, and it still needs to be. The consumers are saying it with their dollars (or lack thereof), the studios are saying it in public and private, and every major hardware manufacturer other than Toshiba has been saying it. No one has bothered to educate, and no one will.

I'd rather 1 format with a fighting chance than 2 with none.
HD audio died because no one cared and no one could tell the difference. A single format would not have solved it and one format will not save HDM. The best shot for HDM would have been the first, cheaper and finished format, and it wouldn't have supplanted DVD anyway. Instead we get an expensive, incomplete, buggy and monopolistic format. It will be better for the average consumer to pass.

That is when the customer has a CHOICE. :) Unfortunatly the choice was never the customer's on all things HDM, from the on set with studios siding one way or the other. But such are the cards that where dealt and there is nothing that can be done about it now.

I am a consumer and Blu-Ray was my choice, so I'm not really sure what you mean by that. I don't know of many products made by different companies that are identical in each and every way. So I don't buy the argument that "the choice was never the customer's" simply because the studio support was different.

I don't see Toshiba lying down in a pine box just yet, do you?


By the end of the year, I don't think it'll matter if Toshiba made it to the pine box, or just fell over on the curb before the morning trash collection. The MFRs, studios, and consumers are (with a few exceptions) eager to end the format war, and embracing Blu-Ray is the best way to do that. In the long run, it'll mean bigger profits for the studios and hardware MFRs, and more movies for us consumers (at lower prices). And just for the record, this is coming from a guy who considered Blu-Ray and HD-DVD to be basically equal.

If Toshiba wanted to play to win, they should have done so long before now. I'm ready to move on and start buying into HDM like I did for DVD. :D

HD audio died because no one cared and no one could tell the difference. A single format would not have solved it and one format will not save HDM. The best shot for HDM would have been the first, cheaper and finished format, and it wouldn't have supplanted DVD anyway. Instead we get an expensive, incomplete, buggy and monopolistic format. It will be better for the average consumer to pass.

I don't even know what a monopolistic format is. I will agree with you on one point that the Blu-Ray format is incomplete. It's simply false to suggest Blu-Ray is the only buggy format when HD DVD combo discs are notorious for their problems. As far as expensive, Blu-Ray software is cheaper if we are talking about "format".

Finally, back to using monopolistic as an adjective to describe a format... what does that even mean? I can only assume that you meant that as a jab at Sony as a corporation, but it's simply hypocritical since the company you obviously support owns what would be the most "monopolistic" format by your definition, the DVD.

By the end of the year, I don't think it'll matter if Toshiba made it to the pine box, or just fell over on the curb before the morning trash collection. The MFRs, studios, and consumers are (with a few exceptions) eager to end the format war, and embracing Blu-Ray is the best way to do that. In the long run, it'll mean bigger profits for the studios and hardware MFRs, and more movies for us consumers (at lower prices). And just for the record, this is coming from a guy who considered Blu-Ray and HD-DVD to be basically equal.

If Toshiba wanted to play to win, they should have done so long before now. I'm ready to move on and start buying into HDM like I did for DVD. :D

I don't know about you, but unless I own stock in a company I don't figure they their profits are of concern to me. However, for HDM to sell studios and mans will have to lose money. At the end of the day BD will be just like DVD or HDDVD would have been. I figure they deserve it for screwing up so bad.

I don't even know what a monopolistic format is.
THe one where one company controls ever aspect of the film, distribution, content protection, media and player. In any other world people would be raising hell about this and once people understand it they will. The very thing that you praise will be one of the main factors that finishes off HDM.

I don't know about you, but unless I own stock in a company I don't figure they their profits are of concern to me.

If the companies don't make a profit, they won't give us the stuff we want. There's more to being a smart consumer than knowing how to say "I want, I want, I want.", just like there's more to running a smart business than saying "give us your money".

THe one where one company controls ever aspect of the film, distribution, content protection, media and player. In any other world people would be raising hell about this and once people understand it they will. The very thing that you praise will be one of the main factors that finishes off HDM.

I think if you read my post I did no "praising" of any kind. I was asking how Sony's majority ownership of the Blu-Ray format is any different than Toshiba's majority ownership of DVD and HD DVD, which you conveniently ignored. None of these formats are owned solely by one company nor are any of them 100% controlled by one company. If you believe that, I suggest you do some research.

I think if you read my post I did no "praising" of any kind. I was asking how Sony's majority ownership of the Blu-Ray format is any different than Toshiba's majority ownership of DVD and HD DVD, which you conveniently ignored. None of these formats are owned solely by one company nor are any of them 100% controlled by one company. If you believe that, I suggest you do some research.

If you're not going to actually debate the points I made, please move on.

If you're not going to actually debate the points I made, please move on.

How else do you want me to debate your points? I'm directly asking you to explain how your accusation of Blu-Ray as a "monopolistic format" is valid when DVD and HD DVD are in exactly the same position?

How else do you want me to debate your points? I'm directly asking you to explain how your accusation of Blu-Ray as a "monopolistic format" is valid when DVD and HD DVD are in exactly the same position?

How many films does Toshiba make and distribute? How many game machines do they make?

THe one where one company controls ever aspect of the film, distribution, content protection, media and player.Apart from film and distribution (essentially the same thing), you're referring to Toshiba. In fact, up until late last year, it was the same thing, thanks to Toshiba owning EMI Japan.

Of course, that's not a monopoly, or else every major label would have gone out of business years ago, not to mention GE's hands in the consumer electronics business.

Respectfully, one side must die. For all of the reasons that we are all familiar with.

Yeah, and I don't care which one it is either!! Yeah right.

How many Blu-ray owners would be saying this if WB had gone red instead of Blu??

A lot of hypocrites on this site!!

How many Blu-ray owners would be saying this if WB had gone red instead of Blu??

Count me in. I wouldn't be missing Dark Knight just because it was in a red case. I had some cash set aside just in case things went the other way.

How many films does Toshiba make and distribute? How many game machines do they make?

Yes Sony does make the PS3 which plays movies. I believe Toshiba also makes standalone movie players do they not? Since we are talking about movies, hardware to play those movies is built by both Toshiba and Sony.

Also you are right that Sony owns a movie studio, but I don't see how that makes Blu-Ray a monopolistic format. If the reality was that Sony was forcing every single movie, regardless of studio, to be released through Sony Pictures in order to be allowed on the Blu-Ray format, your argument would hold water, but that is not the case.

Apart from film and distribution (essentially the same thing), you're referring to Toshiba. In fact, up until late last year, it was the same thing, thanks to Toshiba owning EMI Japan.

Of course, that's not a monopoly, or else every major label would have gone out of business years ago, not to mention GE's hands in the consumer electronics business.
How many players does Warner or UMG sell? This is the first time that any one company has controlled so much of so many aspects of the business. It is ant-consumer, period.

It's rather odd seeing the HD DVD supporters grasping at possible reasons for their preferred format to persist. ...

There is absolutely no reason to have two incompatible formats that do exactly the same thing, and wishing were otherwise doesn't make it so. Retailers don't want it because it is a very inefficient use of shelf space. Studios don't want it because it's a hassle for both mastering and inventory control. Consumers don't want it because it's confusing. ... This needs to end. The sooner the better.

Agreed. This is coming from a long time HD DVD supporter. I still (and likely always will) believe that HD DVD was the better format (more economical, better scalability, complete feature set, enough space/bandwidth for HD quality, etc). I doesn't matter if HD DVD was better; there are thousands of examples in business, politics, history and war (real kind with bullets) where the side that "should have" won didn't.

HD DVD will die but HDM may die with it. BD has in no way guaranteed a "win" in the larger sense. BD needs to work on getting to BD2.0, getting players down in price, getting more media out there, and getting Universal & Paramount to at least go neutral. They should work with Toshiba to release dual format players to finish this while there is still time. It is still possible that the BDA screws this up being overconfident about their success that neither format catches on and both die away slowly.

I love HD DVD. I think my HD-XA2 is likely one of the best built pieces of optical equipment ever. I will enjoy my 80+ titles. At this point I think any continued apathy by consumers (waiting it out) will cause all of us all to end up watching HD Lite on cable/sat/vod/downloads.

It's rather odd seeing the HD DVD supporters grasping at possible reasons for their preferred format to persist. Virtually every single day now, we're seeing more and more shift to Blu-ray in various channels, from retail to studios to related industries, and there appears to be nothing anyone can do at this point to stop it (least of all these pointless arguments on a niche enthusiasts' forum).

There is absolutely no reason to have two incompatible formats that do exactly the same thing, and wishing were otherwise doesn't make it so. Retailers don't want it because it is a very inefficient use of shelf space. Studios don't want it because it's a hassle for both mastering and inventory control. Consumers don't want it because it's confusing.

That doesn't mean that we haven't gotten some silver linings from the format war, but at this point I have to wonder about how detached from reality some of the HD DVD "faithful" have become. I can only imagine how some will react when the tidal wave hits in the coming days/weeks/months.

Frankly, the amount of angst and suffering we see on this forum on a daily basis, and the constant bickering we've seen here and elsewhere for the past two years, are huge reasons why there should never have been two formats to begin with; and they're another big reason why we shouldn't have two formats going forward.

This needs to end. The sooner the better.Ignoring your insults for the moment, shelf space is presently very similar to what it would be with one format. Another BD fan strawman, burned.

Having two HD formats on disc is much the same.I don't see how a 20+ year old video format like VHS being replaced by a new optical based video format is "much the same". It seems to me that really isn't a comparison you can use with Blu-ray and HD DVD which are two competing video formats.


There is room for both HDM Disc formats to survive. All the consumers need is a little education and the desire to purchase a player.I think one format was going to eventually win this format war. Also from the looks of it you don't follow your own advice:


I have enough money for a betaray, but I won't buy one right now. I have enough movies to entertain me for a LONG time, and no need to buy any new ones.

I can't stand Sony, but if in two years bluray is still around and ALL studios are releasing on bluray I may buy a good player


Enough of this 'One side must die.' crap!So Blu-ray supporters should support HD DVD, which in my opinion is dying, but you won't support Blu-ray because you hate Sony? Your choice of course but that conflicts with what you are saying in this thread.

From dictionary.com
mo·nop·o·ly [muh-nop-uh-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -lies. 1. exclusive control of a commodity or service in a particular market, or a control that makes possible the manipulation of prices. Compare duopoly, oligopoly.
2. an exclusive privilege to carry on a business, traffic, or service, granted by a government.
3. the exclusive possession or control of something.
4. something that is the subject of such control, as a commodity or service.
5. a company or group that has such control.
6. the market condition that exists when there is only one seller.
7. (initial capital letter) a board game in which a player attempts to gain a monopoly of real estate by advancing around the board and purchasing property, acquiring capital by collecting rent from other players whose pieces land on that property.

Using the wrong terminology not only makes your arguments weak, it makes you look ignorant.

The term you're looking for is vertical integration, not monopoly.

In fact, the only thing resembling a monopoly in HDM right now is Toshiba. They control 100% of the HD DVD hardware, as the handful of other brands are basically rebadged versions of their original design (RCA, Venturer, Onkyo).

How many players does Warner or UMG sell? This is the first time that any one company has controlled so much of so many aspects of the business. It is ant-consumer, period.

Also you are right that Sony owns a movie studio, but I don't see how that makes Blu-Ray a monopolistic format. If the reality was that Sony was forcing every single movie, regardless of studio, to be released through Sony Pictures in order to be allowed on the Blu-Ray format, your argument would hold water, but that is not the case.

Slim used wrong term. It isn't a monopoly it is vertical integration.
Sony creates and controls content through Sony studios
Sony is one largest distributors of content both to home video and theatrical.
Sony is the largest replicators of BD.
Sony largest backers of the BD format.
Sony is distributor of largest share of BD players.

It is called vertical integration and generally speaking vertically integrated companies use it as an opportunity to be anticompetitive. Sony doesn't have monopoly (wrong term Slim) however nobody should be "cheering" for vertical integration. Couple hundreds years of history has shown that vertically integrated companies tend to hurt markets and consumers.

So Blu-ray supporters should support HD DVD, which in my opinion is dying, but you won't support Blu-ray because you hate Sony? Your choice of course but that conflicts with what you are saying in this thread.

The only reason I can see to answer this is because we obviously should hate Sony as a corporation but not Toshiba because you know, Toshiba doesn't enjoy making money, but evil Sony does. Honestly, a deep hatred for a corporation is unhealthy and simply petty in addition to being utterly unproductive. All companies are guilty of releasing sub-par products as well as fantastic products. In the end they all try to release a quality product because the ultimate goal is to try to get you to, oh I don't know, buy it?

I think one format was going to eventually win this format war. Also from the looks of it you don't follow your own advice:

Quote:
Originally Posted by James R. Geib
I have enough money for a betaray, but I won't buy one right now. I have enough movies to entertain me for a LONG time, and no need to buy any new ones.

I can't stand Sony, but if in two years bluray is still around and ALL studios are releasing on bluray I may buy a good player



Quote:
Originally Posted by James R. Geib
Enough of this 'One side must die.' crap!

So Blu-ray supporters should support HD DVD, which in my opinion is dying, but you won't support Blu-ray because you hate Sony? Your choice of course but that conflicts with what you are saying in this thread.






I've read back through this thread twice, and yet I still can't find where I said Blu-Ray supporters should support HD-DVD

I also said I would end up buying a Blu-Ray player in the future if it was the only one left standing.

Me saying both formats can coexist doesn't conflict with me not buying into a particular format at this time.

(I've disliked Sony for a long time for personal reasons not related to HDM whatsoever. It has nothing to do with me not buying into Blu-Ray yet. I haven't really bought into HD-DVD yet either. The player was I have was a gift, and I've purchased Serenity. I have $20 invested in HDM at this time.)

I wish they would have had one format. IMO HD is better software and BD is better hardware (which is buggy and more expensive because its new). At this point I don't care because they pretty much can do almost the same thing. It would have been at least good if they produced on both formats when it was 50:50 and let buyers make the decision instead of massive exclusives. Only reason I'm even going BOTH formats is because HD was cheap and I may get a PS3. LOL looking around at blockbuster it makes it out to be something exclusive technology to someone that has a PS3.

There is absolutely no reason to have two incompatible formats that do exactly the same thing

This needs to end. The sooner the better.

Bingo !!

Agreed. This is coming from a long time HD DVD supporter. I still (and likely always will) believe that HD DVD was the better format (more economical, better scalability, complete feature set, enough space/bandwidth for HD quality, etc). I doesn't matter if HD DVD was better; there are thousands of examples in business, politics, history and war (real kind with bullets) where the side that "should have" won didn't.

HD DVD will die but HDM may die with it. BD has in no way guaranteed a "win" in the larger sense. BD needs to work on getting to BD2.0, getting players down in price, getting more media out there, and getting Universal & Paramount to at least go neutral. They should work with Toshiba to release dual format players to finish this while there is still time. It is still possible that the BDA screws this up being overconfident about their success that neither format catches on and both die away slowly.

I love HD DVD. I think my HD-XA2 is likely one of the best built pieces of optical equipment ever. I will enjoy my 80+ titles. At this point I think any continued apathy by consumers (waiting it out) will cause all of us all to end up watching HD Lite on cable/sat/vod/downloads.
What I like about HD DVD is that the IME features were really polished right off the bat, which presents a good impression on users, something which BD-j is still ironing out (but will eventually figure out and surpass). It would have been fine had HD DVD come out on top; it's an extremely capable disc format on its own, even though it too has its share of problems.

The people I don't understand are the people who are bitter over one format going away, and will be "satisfied" by HD-lite downloads smothered with DRM.

Bingo !!

So, let's get rid of the expensive, unfinished one.

I've read back through this thread twice, and yet I still can't find where I said Blu-Ray supporters should support HD-DVD.You started this thread talking about people who own both DVD and VHS, that having two HD formats would be much the same, and that owning a dual format player "would be even easier" than owning a single format player.


I also said I would end up buying a Blu-Ray player in the future if it was the only one left standing.Well you aren't as fanatical as some HD DVD supporters but you don't get a prize for that. In fact you still sound like a HD DVD supporter who hates Blu-ray, hates Sony, and tells other people that both HD formats will survive yet at the same time would only support Blu-ray if it wins.


I've disliked Sony for a long time for personal reasons not related to HDM whatsoever. It has nothing to do with me not buying into Blu-Ray yet.When you post against Sony in the middle of a statement about Blu-ray do not be surprised that people would think it related. Also this isn't exactly the first time you made a statement like that:

Bluray may live on as a storage medium for computers, but I imagine it will go the way of Beta if Sony has anything to do with it.
...
Those of you laughing at the HD-DVD camp who are planning on purchasing a bunch of Bluray movies better buy a spare player, because your format won't be around that long either.

When you post against Sony in the middle of a statement about Blu-ray do not be surprised that people would think it related. Also this isn't exactly the first time you made a statement like that:


That's mostly as a rebuttle to Blu-Ray proponents bashing HD-DVD, which is the norm on this site, and not really a true reflection of my feelings. I don't forsee either format going anywhere for a while.

I typically reply with sarcasm to those who are fanatical about wanting HD-DVD to die and those believing it's dead already. When I'm not on this forum, I don't give much thought at all to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. Being on here and posting rebuttles is simply theraputic for me. It's a character flaw. :-)

You started this thread talking about people who own both DVD and VHS, that having two HD formats would be much the same, and that owning a dual format player "would be even easier" than owning a single format player.

My main point when starting this thread was not to compare the formats in themselves, but to show that the public is capable of walking into a store and picking the correct movie format off a shelf for their player, whether it's VHS or DVD. HD and BD make it a little harder, but it's not something people can't learn. Red for HD, Blue for BD.

The only people who want two formats, are people who already purchased HD DVD players.

The majority of HDM consumers are not HD DVD owners, and the vast majority of people of will be HDM consumers one day, don't want to buy two optical disk players for every display.

So can we just hurry up and get Universal and Paramount to support the majority of HDM players already?

Please?

In relation to the title, Yes I agree, Toshiba is finally doing their part to let people know there is a choice. It's up to the consumer to decide which way they want to go, Red, Blue, or Purple. And thats the way it should be, can't understand why some people here have such a hard time accepting that especially the blu side who feel if BD doesn't outright win, the world is doomed. They really take things to the extreme! As for HDM, the masses have not spoken yet and we really can not conclude right now if they want just one, both, or neither format to exist. I don't think it will be clear until 18-24 months from now and then we can get a better feel for things. Until then, just enjoy your movies.

The only people who want two formats, are people who already purchased HD DVD players.

The majority of HDM consumers are not HD DVD owners, and the vast majority of people of will be HDM consumers one day, don't want to buy two optical disk players for every display.

So can we just hurry up and get Universal and Paramount to support the majority of HDM players already?

Please?
I want two formats because I already own a BD player and a bunch of BDs. As far as the multiple player thing... that's why they'll be sticking with DVD. I have several customers that own a BD or HDDVD player and still just buy DVDs because they already have 5 players that play those, but with HDDVD players at close to $100 I can see where they would replace the DVD players if given the time to do so.

In relation to the title, Yes I agree, Toshiba is finally doing their part to let people know there is a choice. It's up to the consumer to decide which way they want to go, Red, Blue, or Purple. And thats the way it should be, can't understand why some people here have such a hard time accepting that especially the blu side who feel if BD doesn't outright win, the world is doomed. They really take things to the extreme! As for HDM, the masses have not spoken yet and we really can not conclude right now if they want just one, both, or neither format to exist. I don't think it will be clear until 18-24 months from now and then we can get a better feel for things. Until then, just enjoy your movies.

The masses have spoken and they've decided to pass.

WHV's assertion that only one to proceed is one point that should not be lost on all here. This is different from a blu smurf assertion of wanting to win and grind their victory into the pages of history. ;)

WHV's arguments are reasonably well thought out, plausible, and they happen to match what I've thought about this thing for a long time.

So in summary, it is Disney(+BV), Fox, Sony, MGM, Lionsgate, Warner(+NewLine) that say coexistence is not possible. Regardless of what we think we understand about the packaged media business, these guys run their companies and I'd give their arguments more weight that any of our gut feel here.

Besides, the OP didn't want coexistence, he wanted to be the one to be doing the grinding of victory over BD into the pages of history (if I read his posts correctly).

If we believe WHV, for the good of their own long term bottom line, someone has to emerge out of this mess as the sole remaining format, that could be more compelling than any angst, or pity, or any other beliefs some here hold.

Quoting the borgs: Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated...
There is no good reason for we to keep two formats. It would force people to either have dual-players or two players. Anyplace in your house you want to have HD playback capability will require two players. It is just dumb. Not to mention the market segmenting that the studios would have to face(customers that only have one of the formats would be lost for studios that support he other format) Producing discs on both formats is also a waste of resources and shelf space, since both are meant to do the exact same thing.(We do have this with video-games, and multi-platform games usually suck, cost much more to make and do nothing for the consumer - no competitive advantage on the game pricing)This war is actually a CE war, and in that case, It is easy to prefer a format that is supported by all the major CEs instead of a format that is supported by only one... Rather than supporting both...

At the end, I want to have a single HD disc library, that can be played on all my players and on my friends homes. Multiple formats hinder mobility.(Why MP3 is the most successful format? because it can be read by almost every player... MP3 is preferable to any of the proprietary formats just because of that)

Allan

ps. DVD-A vs. SACD already showed that competing formats to do the same thing fail miserably in becoming standards. Selling HD audio was hard enough without forcing the customer to choose this or that format... HD vs DVD will be an easier battle, but still, multiple formats makes DVD looks better...

It's rather odd seeing the HD DVD supporters grasping at possible reasons for their preferred format to persist. Virtually every single day now, we're seeing more and more shift to Blu-ray in various channels, from retail to studios to related industries, and there appears to be nothing anyone can do at this point to stop it (least of all these pointless arguments on a niche enthusiasts' forum).

There is absolutely no reason to have two incompatible formats that do exactly the same thing, and wishing were otherwise doesn't make it so. Retailers don't want it because it is a very inefficient use of shelf space. Studios don't want it because it's a hassle for both mastering and inventory control. Consumers don't want it because it's confusing.

That doesn't mean that we haven't gotten some silver linings from the format war, but at this point I have to wonder about how detached from reality some of the HD DVD "faithful" have become. I can only imagine how some will react when the tidal wave hits in the coming days/weeks/months.

Frankly, the amount of angst and suffering we see on this forum on a daily basis, and the constant bickering we've seen here and elsewhere for the past two years, are huge reasons why there should never have been two formats to begin with; and they're another big reason why we shouldn't have two formats going forward.

This needs to end. The sooner the better.

You make some excellent points, very good post. I am/was a HD DVD fan, though I never had any problems with Blu Ray. HD DVD was first, it was good, and then came Blu Ray. Yes, there may have been, and still are stumbling blocks this format has had, but it's young, and will mature. It's amazing to see the reactions to this "war". Some of them defy reason. The lights are going out for HD DVD, now it's time to embrace the format that has the best possibility of mainstream penetration. This is about media storage, and little more. To all those naysayers who feel that prices will never come down, the spec will never be complete....wait a bit. Everything will eventually fall in line, and we can get back to watching movies.

Quoting the borgs: Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated...
There is no good reason for we to keep two formats. It would force people to either have dual-players or two players. Anyplace in your house you want to have HD playback capability will require two players. It is just dumb. Not to mention the market segmenting that the studios would have to face(customers that only have one of the formats would be lost for studios that support he other format) Producing discs on both formats is also a waste of resources and shelf space, since both are meant to do the exact same thing.(We do have this with video-games, and multi-platform games usually suck, cost much more to make and do nothing for the consumer - no competitive advantage on the game pricing)This war is actually a CE war, and in that case, It is easy to prefer a format that is supported by all the major CEs instead of a format that is supported by only one... Rather than supporting both...

At the end, I want to have a single HD disc library, that can be played on all my players and on my friends homes. Multiple formats hinder mobility.(Why MP3 is the most successful format? because it can be read by almost every player... MP3 is preferable to any of the proprietary formats just because of that)

Allan

ps. DVD-A vs. SACD already showed that competing formats to do the same thing fail miserably in becoming standards. Selling HD audio was hard enough without forcing the customer to choose this or that format... HD vs DVD will be an easier battle, but still, multiple formats makes DVD looks better...
With no neutral studios the shelf space is identical. BEst Buy thanks you for the help, I'm sure.

I want two formats because I already own a BD player and a bunch of BDs. As far as the multiple player thing... that's why they'll be sticking with DVD. I have several customers that own a BD or HDDVD player and still just buy DVDs because they already have 5 players that play those, but with HDDVD players at close to $100 I can see where they would replace the DVD players if given the time to do so.

You don't want two formats because you already own a BD player and a bunch of BDs.

You want two formats because, like I said, you bought already purchased an HD DVD player.

If you only owned a BD player you would be looking forward to the day that 100% of the major studios make movies that will work in your player.

PS. Since you own both, no matter what happens in the future, all the content will work on a player you already own. So why should you care what color box it comes in? Especially if there is more of it.

You make some excellent points, very good post. I am/was a HD DVD fan, though I never had any problems with Blu Ray. HD DVD was first, it was good, and then came Blu Ray. Yes, there may have been, and still are stumbling blocks this format has had, but it's young, and will mature. It's amazing to see the reactions to this "war". Some of them defy reason. The lights are going out for HD DVD, now it's time to embrace the format that has the best possibility of mainstream penetration. This is about media storage, and little more. To all those naysayers who feel that prices will never come down, the spec will never be complete....wait a bit. Everything will eventually fall in line, and we can get back to watching movies.
I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't have shed a tear if Blu-ray were the one getting ready to close up shop; it's not like HD DVD is bad - it's a great product, and rightly so (and only the overly passionate Blu-ray "faithful" would say otherwise).

What HD DVD lacked was the marketing punch to pull ahead. Right about this time last year, the war was Toshiba's to win. Unfortunately, they allowed Universal to go on a three month hiatus, and they thought they could do an end run around the need for advertising and public awareness by lowering prices and defying the rule of commodity slope.

As you say, all flaws will be fixed in time. Pricing will come down, standards will shake down, firmware will stabilize (how many DVD players can you buy today that need a firmware update?), and the end user will be none the wiser that any of this turbulence even existed in 2006/2007.

Coexistence is possible, however distribution is THE key.

Where are you going to buy HD DVD's in a year?

So, let's get rid of the expensive, unfinished one.

Slim, you gotta face reality sooner or later. Your HD DVD player will be like my DVHS deck. Although you will cherish a working format that delivers quality, we do live in a society where mass consumption is the norm, and niche always has a way of surviving.

Toshiba has a good product and good enough format for people to be happy. For the early adopters both formats have been bought.

But even at closeout prices, I would not recommend a friend buy into HD DVD now.

The Blu Ray player forum has many HD DVD adopters who are now moving solely to Blu because they see the writing on the wall. The sad thing is, there is no Blu player that I could recommend to them right now!:confused:

All the doom and gloom talk about unfinished specs came true, and the format not being finalized stinks. I wish that the Blu studios offered just the movie without the fixin's.

The HD Audio battle is what is killing Blu right now, who would have thought?

Slim, you gotta face reality sooner or later. Your HD DVD player will be like my DVHS deck. Although you will cherish a working format that delivers quality, we do live in a society where mass consumption is the norm, and niche always has a way of surviving.

Toshiba has a good product and good enough format for people to be happy. For the early adopters both formats have been bought.

But even at closeout prices, I would not recommend a friend buy into HD DVD now.

The Blu Ray player forum has many HD DVD adopters who are now moving solely to Blu because they see the writing on the wall. The sad thing is, there is no Blu player that I could recommend to them right now!:confused:

All the doom and gloom talk about obsolete specs came true, and the format not being finalized stinks.

The HD Audio battle is what is killing Blu right now, who would have thought?

I had a friend who was interested in getting a BD player to go with his HDTV (he has no surround sound atm!).

I told him flat out that the only player he should even consider is the PS3, and that he would do best to wait for another price drop, or newer, cheaper, and futureproof (2.0) standalone players.

You don't want two formats because you already own a BD player and a bunch of BDs.

You want two formats because, like I said, you bought already purchased an HD DVD player.

If you only owned a BD player you would be looking forward to the day that 100% of the major studios make movies that will work in your player.

PS. Since you own both, no matter what happens in the future, all the content will work on a player you already own. So why should you care what color box it comes in? Especially if there is more of it.

I own a Mac and a PC. I own a Wii and a PS3. I even have SACD and DVD-A.

I could write 100 pages about how having a choice is better and all the benefits it provides...but my bet is that most people here will never change their opinion.

You don't want two formats because you already own a BD player and a bunch of BDs.

You want two formats because, like I said, you bought already purchased an HD DVD player.

If you only owned a BD player you would be looking forward to the day that 100% of the major studios make movies that will work in your player.

PS. Since you own both, no matter what happens in the future, all the content will work on a player you already own. So why should you care what color box it comes in? Especially if there is more of it.

As one of many people here who owns both formats I don't think what you are saying is true.

There are many "purple people" who own and enjoy both formats but want a single format because otherwise optical HDM is doomed to niche status.

Niche status means higher prices on hardware and software and lack of availability of software.

How many of you owned both a DVD player and VHS player at the same time. Did you watch movies on both? How long did it take you to learn which player to put the tape in and which player to put the disc in? Did you purchase movies for both?

Having two HD formats on disc is much the same. Consumers are, for the most part, not complete idiots. With a little education an informed consumer can easily pick out the correct disc for his/her respective HD player. Having a dual format would be even easier. How many dual VHS/DVD players are in the wild?

Is it really that different from the damn DVD+R/-R crap? I'd say buying the correct disc for HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray is as easy or easier than buying the correct recordable disc to backup your family photos.

There is room for both HDM Disc formats to survive. All the consumers need is a little education and the desire to purchase a player. Software sales will follow.........

Enough of this 'One side must die.' crap!

While the DVD-VHS metaphor may not work. I agree completely with doing away with the 'One side must die'.

As a pilot, I've thoroughly enjoyed a version of the aviation documentary 16 Right on HD-DVD. And,..I can't wait to watch "Remember the Titans" in Blu Ray!

We are already coexisting with AMD/INTEL, MAC/PC, Unix/XP/Leopard, IPOD/Zune, DVD+R/-R,etc, etc. In these cases, no-one has "died". And is most cases, there are sensible ways media can be shared across each platform.

Education is important.

Clearly, there is a group composed of "purple" that doesn't wish for anyone to die.

My $59 Panasonic DVD player plays DVD+R, DVD-R. Of course, there are polictical considerations. Technically speaking, why can't HDM mature to a similar point? Then the "war" ostensibly evaporates.

I forgot to mention SD, microSD and memory sticks.

Why would Sony dump those memory sticks and quit forcing consumers to buy something they do not want?:D

BTW, the 'one format must die' is a really a media created thing, that fanboys on both sides and the BDA helped fuel. It makes a great sensational story, and they get to use words like 'war' and 'death'.
Its also a made up thing that people can blame the lack of adoption on, even though price and the fact that most people could care less are the real reasons.

I forgot to mention SD, microSD and memory sticks.

Why would Sony dump those memory sticks and quit forcing consumers to buy something they do not want?:D

Comparing memory sticks/SD/microSD, or DVD+/-R to HDM is like comparing apples to area rugs.

I haven't read the replies here...I don't need to. Coexistence is silly and unnecessary. VHS briefly coexisted with DVD and gradually phased out. Now DVD has to coexist with two competing HD formats. There will be no phasing out of DVD as long as this happens. Consumers will never accept it, nor will the studios. I personally would never buy two different formats; locking myself in to have two players or hoping a good combo player will come out. And if I wouldn't do this, they'll be millions of J6P's that wouldn't. And what will happen when HD drives become more mainstream? Would we all need two of those?

I like HD-DVD but after reading Toshiba's press release; boosting about SD DVD up conversion being almost as good as HD, I think it's game over for the format...Especially when they only have two studios left.

If Warner didn't decide to nip this in the bud, they would have coexisted for awhile longer, but it would have just dragged HD down.

M

BTW, the 'one format must die' is a really a media created thing, that fanboys on both sides and the BDA helped fuel.I would not call the following media created. And this list only includes 2008!!

01-30-08 National Geographic Goes Blu-ray Exclusive
01-30-08 EMI Japan Goes Blu-ray Exclusive
01-30-08 Sonic Solutions Scenarist Goes Blu-ray Exclusive
01-28-08 Woolworths goes Blu-ray exclusive in store.
01-22-08 Grant's Appliances to go Blu-ray exclusive in 2008.
01-16-08 Senator Entertainment goes Blu-ray exclusive.
01-16-08 Digital Playground to go Blu-ray exclusive in 2008.
01-11-08 Constantin Film goes Blu-ray exclusive.
01-10-08 HBO goes Blu-ray exclusive.
01-05-08 New Line goes Blu-ray exclusive.
01-04-08 Warner goes Blu-ray exclusive.

For all those talking about owning both, the reality is, before the internet Apple Mac was pretty much niche only. It had the artists and alternative crowd but until we all could hook up to the internet only one format could exist in one household - no one wanted to buy two versions of the same program.

Fast forward to today. The DVD-Audio/SACD war is similar. People didn't want two competing formats, and even when the universal players came out it didn't matter. CD didn't win, lower resolution did.

The difference is that we all didn't need to upgrade audio like people are with Televisions. CRT is not only dead, but the flat monitors are superior in size and take up less space/weight. No one in their right mind is going to buy a 1,000 lb 60" CRT television! BUT everyone is buying the new LCD/Plasma/DLP that offers higher resolution and greater size - Thus there is a need for HD media, unlike DVD-A/SACD which depended upon people to be having systems that needed upgrading their CD.

That said, isn't it funny that HD Audio depended upon home theaters to provide a market!!!!!

I would not call the following media created. And this list only includes 2008!!

01-30-08 National Geographic Goes Blu-ray Exclusive
01-30-08 EMI Japan Goes Blu-ray Exclusive
01-30-08 Sonic Solutions Scenarist Goes Blu-ray Exclusive
01-28-08 Woolworths goes Blu-ray exclusive in store.
01-22-08 Grant's Appliances to go Blu-ray exclusive in 2008.
01-16-08 Senator Entertainment goes Blu-ray exclusive.
01-16-08 Digital Playground to go Blu-ray exclusive in 2008.
01-11-08 Constantin Film goes Blu-ray exclusive.
01-10-08 HBO goes Blu-ray exclusive.
01-05-08 New Line goes Blu-ray exclusive.
01-04-08 Warner goes Blu-ray exclusive.

That list doesn't matter! The Consumer didn't get to decide! Wait until people open their Christmas presents! Wait until Transformers is released.......:rolleyes:

For all those talking about owning both, the reality is, before the internet Apple Mac was pretty much niche only. It had the artists and alternative crowd but until we all could hook up to the internet only one format could exist in one household - no one wanted to buy two versions of the same program.

Fast forward to today. The DVD-Audio/SACD war is similar. People didn't want two competing formats, and even when the universal players came out it didn't matter. CD didn't win, lower resolution did.

The difference is that we all didn't need to upgrade audio like people are with Televisions. CRT is not only dead, but the flat monitors are superior in size and take up less space/weight. No one in their right mind is going to buy a 1,000 lb 60" CRT television! BUT everyone is buying the new LCD/Plasma/DLP that offers higher resolution and greater size - Thus there is a need for HD media, unlike DVD-A/SACD which depended upon people to be having systems that needed upgrading their CD.

That said, isn't it funny that HD Audio depended upon home theaters to provide a market!!!!!

These are apples to oranges comparisons.

There is no incentive for anyone in the studio, mastering, authoring or retail spaces to have two formats. The only thing that having two formats does is slow adoption and keep consumers sidelined. There have been numerous opinion pieces in prestigious rags like the NYT that bear this out. There have been polls that bear this out.

And yet people continue to insist that coexistence is "good".

The only people who coexistence is "good" for are those who are so cheap that they want a $149 player rather than waiting for prices to naturally come down, or those who own one format and refuse to give up on it.

Someone else put it very well. The industry moving to one format is akin to creating a highway system and deciding which side of the road everyone will drive on. Until that happens commerce/traffic-flow will be marginal at best.

The topic has to do with co-existence, yet this thread is devolving into the usual format battle. Let's get it back on track, please. Some posts removed.

BTW, the 'one format must die' is a really a media created thing, that fanboys on both sides and the BDA helped fuel.

<sigh>

Brandon

My main point when starting this thread was not to compare the formats in themselves, but to show that the public is capable of walking into a store and picking the correct movie format off a shelf for their player, whether it's VHS or DVD. HD and BD make it a little harder, but it's not something people can't learn. Red for HD, Blue for BD.

I have a small problem with what you said here. I respect your thread, but you have not really "shown" that the public of differentiating between the two formats; you have provided no studies, no support, only your opinion. However, on the other side of the argument, there have been studies, articles and studio reps that have all stated that the format war is holding back some people from buying into HDM.

Until you back up your statement that "the public is capable of walking into a store and picking the correct movie format...", I have to say your thread is only an opinion piece, and a slightly biased opinion at that.

BTW, the 'one format must die' is a really a media created thing, that fanboys on both sides and the BDA helped fuel. It makes a great sensational story, and they get to use words like 'war' and 'death'.
Its also a made up thing that people can blame the lack of adoption on, even though price and the fact that most people could care less are the real reasons.

Hasn't virtually every retailer said the same thing? And don't surveys show that one of the major reasons that people are sitting on the sidelines is the concern that only one format will survive? And Warner said the same thing too. As do most financial observers and analysts. It is not a media created thing -- its right.

Coexistence is not the answer, it is the problem.

Comparing memory sticks/SD/microSD, or DVD+/-R to HDM is like comparing apples to area rugs.
I own a Mac and a PC. I own a Wii and a PS3. I even have SACD and DVD-A.
I guess you missed my first 3 comparisions.

I respect your thread, but you have not really "shown" that the public of differentiating between the two formats; you have provided no studies, no support, only your opinion.

If you'll read my statement, I ended the sentence with 'whether it's VHS or DVD.' Now, granted, there may have been the occasional person out there who mistakenly purchased a DVD and tried to put it in their VHS player, but I imagine that that mistake was not a very common one! On the other hand, I don't think a VHS tape would have even fit in the DVD drawer of a DVD player, so I don't think that particular mistake was made by anyone. (Yes these are just my opinions.)

Picking out the correct software for HD-DVD and Blu-ray will take more education, but will be possible. I, however, did not claim people could do 'that' yet.

[QUOTE=Everdog;12988537]BTW, the 'one format must die' is a really a media created thing, that fanboys on both sides and the BDA helped fuel. It makes a great sensational story, and they get to use words like 'war' and 'death'.
QUOTE]

Yes.
And wouldn't the development of more format agnostic hardware help this concept of 'co-existence'?

And wouldn't the development of more format agnostic hardware help this concept of 'co-existence'?

Absolutely, and a Toshiba dual format player would be both functional, and hilarious!

some people say that HDM software sales are poor and others say that HDM is ahead of DVD in terms of the adoption curve. which one is it?

if HDM is ahead of DVD then the software sales will come, whether there is one format or not.

If you'll read my statement, I ended the sentence with 'whether it's VHS or DVD.' Now, granted, there may have been the occasional person out there who mistakenly purchased a DVD and tried to put it in their VHS player, but I imagine that that mistake was not a very common one! On the other hand, I don't think a VHS tape would have even fit in the DVD drawer of a DVD player, so I don't think that particular mistake was made by anyone. (Yes these are just my opinions.)

Picking out the correct software for HD-DVD and Blu-ray will take more education, but will be possible. I, however, did not claim people could do 'that' yet.

But therein lies the problem of your comparison. Your strawman argument that nobody mistook DVD for VHS is not very valid when applied to Blu-Ray and HD DVD. Think about the shapes of the VHS format and the DVD format, compared to the Blu-Ray and HD DVD format. If I took the two discs out of the cases, the general public is not going to know which is which, much less know which slot of which player to stick it in.

I understand that you were claiming that people could be educated to understand the difference, but you still have not provided any reports, articles, or experts speaking to the possibility that this could indeed be done. Furthermore, who would be paying for this sort of education? Would it be Toshiba, Sony or both? What would be their financial incentive to do so?

Think about this, why would Toshiba or Sony pay for education to differentiate between both, in essence supporting the dual format environment, thus hurting their own sales. Why would they want to do that?

My point is rather than positing opinions and hypothetical situations, let's discuss a matter with some sort of productivity. Rather than simply saying coexistence is possible, or that education could be provided, how about we take this a step further and start discussing the logic as well as the logistics of implementing said hypothetical.

The argument that two fomats can not co-exist is just bogus. When you look at all the formats one movie can be sold in today, it really put this niche in perspective.
Full screen vs. OAR vs. UMD vs iPod vs. SD DVD vs. digital download vs. VOD vs. all the others.

The real reason for this whole 'war' is that studios can make so much more by not selling a format...which just proves how much of a niche HDM is.

If studios could make a profit from selling a format with out relying on BDA/HDDVD incentives, they would.

I guess you missed my first 3 comparisions.

What makes you think I missed them? :confused:

Those examples are a little more appropriate (if only marginally), hence why I didn't mention them when bringing up DVD+/-R, and memory sticks/SD/microSD.

[QUOTE=Everdog;12988537]BTW, the 'one format must die' is a really a media created thing, that fanboys on both sides and the BDA helped fuel. It makes a great sensational story, and they get to use words like 'war' and 'death'.
QUOTE]

Yes.
And wouldn't the development of more format agnostic hardware help this concept of 'co-existence'?

It would, but we already have things like PSPs, Zunes, iPods, that play proprietary formats, and no one seems to mind.

I am still waiting for a game console that plays Halo and Mario and Metroid. How many people out there whould buy that?

My point is rather than positing opinions and hypothetical situations, let's discuss a matter with some sort of productivity. Rather than simply saying coexistence is possible, or that education could be provided, how about we take this a step further and start discussing the logic as well as the logistics of implementing said hypothetical.

Next Tuesday is my first, local HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disc recognition meeting. This meeting will take place at 6pm in the Chester Elementary School cafeteria followed by my semi-monthly SACD withdrawal meeting. It should be productive, and I expect a large turn-out as my wife will be making her famous pineapple rum cake. Delish!

The problem I see is that the majority on this forum don't want productive discussion when it comes to coexistence threads, so I simply enjoy my typing practice and trying to see if I can start threads which will exceed certain post counts. Pretty selfish, huh?

[QUOTE=flyin_frenchman;12989808]

It would, but we already have things like PSPs, Zunes, iPods, that play proprietary formats, and no one seems to mind.

I am still waiting for a game console that plays Halo and Mario and Metroid. How many people out there whould buy that?

True, my son has a Zune & doesn't seem to mind that his friends have Ipods!
: )
I'm just saying that if anyone would pursue format agnostic hardware it would help.

Things have sure changed since we were clamouring to be able to play 33-1/3 AND 78's on the same turntable!

What makes you think I missed them? :confused:

Those examples are a little more appropriate (if only marginally), hence why I didn't mention them when bringing up DVD+/-R, and memory sticks/SD/microSD.

DVD+/-R was yours not mine. I only mentioned memory sticks because I hate them. They cost more and do less, yet Sony still feels the need to force them on us.

[QUOTE=Everdog;12990177]

True, my son has a Zune & doesn't seem to mind that his friends have Ipods!
: )
I'm just saying that if anyone would pursue format agnostic hardware it would help.

Things have sure changed since we were clamouring to be able to play 33-1/3 AND 78's on the same turntable!

I am sorry. I agree with you 100%.

[QUOTE=Everdog;12990177]

True, my son has a Zune & doesn't seem to mind that his friends have Ipods!
: )
I'm just saying that if anyone would pursue format agnostic hardware it would help.

Things have sure changed since we were clamouring to be able to play 33-1/3 AND 78's on the same turntable!

I know why a zune owner doesn't mind other people having ipods:

It's because he can play the same music, from the same artists.

:eek:

Kind of different than HDM.

There are many "purple people" who own and enjoy both formats but want a single format because otherwise optical HDM is doomed to niche status.

Niche status means higher prices on hardware and software and lack of availability of software.

So true!

We need one format and we need it as soon as possible to prevent further consumer confusion and niche status. If HDM is to break out into the mainstream, there must only be one format.

The people here on AVS can understand and cope with many different technologies, but that’s asking a bit much of J6P. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in homes back in the VCR days and see 12:00 flashing because it was too technical to set the clock!

People comparing HDM to different memory sticks is really pushing an apples to oranges comparisons. If there are 12 different RAM sizes in 6 formats then if a store stocks them all they only have 72 individual stock numbers and that’s a LOT of possible options for a store to stock. I’m not willing to limit my movies to 72 titles and by having both we are limiting the number of titles either format can have to HALF of what it should be due to floor space considerations. Again, AVSers know about Amazon and trust the internet with our credit card information but many typical consumers do not and will not.

There was a thread back before the holidays about giving HDM players as presents with some even boasting of giving 5 or more players, but for me, I said NO (see below). I wonder how many people that gave away players are happy with their decision to pull their non tech friends and family into a format war? If there had been one format, then I would have said YES.
I would not want to get anyone that had not spent time on their own to decide what format that they wanted to be involved in. This is especially true for people with kids where I would be hard pressed to recommend anything but Blu-Ray because of Disney.

It does seem that many of the hard core format fans are giving players to further their own agendas without regards to the person getting the shaf...er gift...:eek:

DVD+/-R was yours not mine. I only mentioned memory sticks because I hate them. They cost more and do less, yet Sony still feels the need to force them on us.

I have yet to have someone force me to buy anything, where do you people live that it is acceptable for people to force you to purchase things?!

It's rather odd seeing the HD DVD supporters grasping at possible reasons for their preferred format to persist. Virtually every single day now, we're seeing more and more shift to Blu-ray in various channels, from retail to studios to related industries, and there appears to be nothing anyone can do at this point to stop it (least of all these pointless arguments on a niche enthusiasts' forum).

There is absolutely no reason to have two incompatible formats that do exactly the same thing, and wishing were otherwise doesn't make it so. Retailers don't want it because it is a very inefficient use of shelf space. Studios don't want it because it's a hassle for both mastering and inventory control. Consumers don't want it because it's confusing.

That doesn't mean that we haven't gotten some silver linings from the format war, but at this point I have to wonder about how detached from reality some of the HD DVD "faithful" have become. I can only imagine how some will react when the tidal wave hits in the coming days/weeks/months.

Frankly, the amount of angst and suffering we see on this forum on a daily basis, and the constant bickering we've seen here and elsewhere for the past two years, are huge reasons why there should never have been two formats to begin with; and they're another big reason why we shouldn't have two formats going forward.

This needs to end. The sooner the better.

Opinions are like....well you know...HD DVD has 3 important studios exclusively...that's a fact...players are cheap...that's a fact...you want Universal or Paramount etc in HD 1080P or even 1080i?...get an HD DVD player.

I know why a zune owner doesn't mind other people having ipods:

It's because he can play the same music, from the same artists.

:eek:

Kind of different than HDM.

Does Sony make videos for iPods? or only UMD that plays on PSPs?

Kind of make you wonder when other studios can release movies in 10 different formats (like iPod and UMD), but then say it costs too much to release them in both HD DVD and Blu-ray.

The reality is as I said...Studios make more from the exclusive contracts than they ever could from selling HDM discs. That is the ONE and ONLY thing blocking co-existance.

Does Sony make videos for iPods? or only UMD that plays on PSPs?

Kind of make you wonder when other studios can release movies in 10 different formats (like iPod and UMD), but then say it costs too much to release them in both HD DVD and Blu-ray.

The reality is as I said...Studios make more from the exclusive contracts than they ever could from selling HDM discs. That is the ONE and ONLY thing blocking co-existance.

The only problem I have is not being able to get all the content on my player, none of these other points that keep being brought up have anything to do with that.

We don't have to buy an ipod and a zune to get all the content, but that is somehow applicable to this thread which is saying I should buy an additional HDM player to get access to the content?

If anything the different media players and formats that have access to the same content is showing us what is wrong with HDM currently.

We aren't getting more choices, we are having unecessary choices forced upon us by both sides.

Just give us 100% of the content in at least one format already.

edit - Sounds like are points are now lining up, and I don't care if HD DVD dies or lives forever. I just want all the studios on my format and right now HD DVD is the only thing standing in the way of that.

We need one format and we need it as soon as possible to prevent further consumer confusion and niche status. If HDM is to break out into the mainstream, there must only be one format.


But there will never be one single format since HD content can be distributed in so many ways via sat, cable, fibre, etc.

Why yearn for something like a single optical HDM when the Hollywood studios know that the only way to defeat the movie pirates is to fight it out on the Internet. :confused:

DVD+/-R was yours not mine. I only mentioned memory sticks because I hate them. They cost more and do less, yet Sony still feels the need to force them on us.

Actually, it wasn't mine. It was in one of the posts above yours. I simply copied your post where you mentioned memory sticks. I simply thought both points were equally asinine. It wasn't my intention to attribute the +/-R to you.

My apologies.

Just give us 100% of the content in at least one format already.

edit - Sounds like are points are now lining up, and I don't care if HD DVD dies or lives forever. I just want all the studios on my format and right now HD DVD is the only thing standing in the way of that.

Wouldn't it have been great if the consortiums would've been able to agree on one HDM format during those meetings years ago? That would have been the ultimate "co-existence"! A co-existence of ideas!!
:)

Wouldn't it have been great if the consortiums would've been able to agree on one HDM format during those meetings years ago? That would have been the ultimate "co-existence"! A co-existence of ideas!!
:)

Too little too late imho, if HD DVD had been looking for this from the beginning it would be one thing, but it seems that now it is clear that HD DVD cannot win, suddenly we are supposed to accept two formats forever, I don't think so.

Wouldn't it have been great if the consortiums would've been able to agree on one HDM format during those meetings years ago? That would have been the ultimate "co-existence"! A co-existence of ideas!!
:)

DVD Forum Founding members:

Hitachi, Ltd. (hardware)
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. (hardware)
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation (hardware)
Pioneer Electronic Corporation (hardware)
Royal Philips Electronics N.V. (hardware)
Sony Corporation (hardware/software)
Thomson (hardware)
Time Warner Inc. (software)
Toshiba Corporation (hardware)
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd. (JVC) (hardware)

Agree, thats the way it should have been...
It’s much easier for hardware vendors to support multiple formats since it might require having as many as 8 current models instead of 4, unlike the studios that potentially has tens of thousands of titles times 2 to have to deal with.

I have yet to have someone force me to buy anything, where do you people live that it is acceptable for people to force you to purchase things?!

???
For a present I was given a Sony digital camera came with a memory stick that only held about 8-10 high quality pictures.

Sure I had a choice:

-Not use the camera.
-Use the camera and live with the 8-10 picture limit.
-Buy the darn memory stick that does not work with my PDA, other cameras, TV, Wii, camcorder, etc.

BTW, ever try to live without gasoline? My bet is that if you did, you would be 'forced' to eventually.

Does Sony make videos for iPods? or only UMD that plays on PSPs?

Kind of make you wonder when other studios can release movies in 10 different formats (like iPod and UMD), but then say it costs too much to release them in both HD DVD and Blu-ray.

The reality is as I said...Studios make more from the exclusive contracts than they ever could from selling HDM discs. That is the ONE and ONLY thing blocking co-existance.


Even if studios were inclined to eat the authoring/production costs of making movies on both formats, retailers don't want to stack 2 copies of 10,000 movies. They are already phasing out P&S SKUs of widescreen movies due to how much floor space that eats up.

Additionally authoring for two formats requires either common encodes to cut production costs or much higher production costs to do seperate encodes/features for each version that has to be passed on to a consumer.

Ever wonder why buying a movie on iTunes costs so much and doesn't even have special features, good picture, etc? See above.

Honestly? I think even Toshiba has moved beyond many HD DVD supporters here. Their new "bring it directly to the consumer" campaign is an attempt to sell "upconverters with HD capabilities" directly to the consumer, bypassing the studios. This was never their strategy until Warner pulled out. It's obvious to anyone not married to a format, that Toshiba is trying to run out the clock by slashing the price on players and protecting their Para & Uni relationship - all in the name of perpetuating SD DVD royalties. Whether or not people here know it, Toshiba does and is acting accordingly. "Coexistence" would also become part of this startegy - and it never was before. If the prospects of winning are in doubt then the next best thing is to drag it out hoping for something to change in their favor.

???
For a present I was given a Sony digital camera came with a memory stick that only held about 8-10 high quality pictures.

Sure I had a choice:

-Not use the camera.
-Use the camera and live with the 8-10 picture limit.
-Buy the darn memory stick that does not work with my PDA, other cameras, TV, Wii, camcorder, etc.

BTW, ever try to live without gasoline? My bet is that if you did, you would be 'forced' to eventually.

So your friends and family are forcing you into buying evil sony proprietary formats!

Maybe you should be spending your time trying to convince them of your ridiculous point of view.

BTW, while I agree that HDM is important to me, I don't think anyone is claiming that they are required to use it to get to work, or to buy food.

Think you need to temper it a little bit, you know, just a tad.

But there will never be one single format since HD content can be distributed in so many ways via sat, cable, fibre, etc.

Why yearn for something like a single optical HDM when the Hollywood studios know that the only way to defeat the movie pirates is to fight it out on the Internet. :confused:

The difference is one single physical media. Using your example, I will never personally own;

A sat box
A cable box
A fibre box
An etc box

To view it all. That’s the point since the above mentioned electronic FORMATS should be compatible from an electronic point of view, whereas HD-DVD and BD HDM are not compatible.

Opinions are like....well you know...HD DVD has 3 important studios exclusively...that's a fact...players are cheap...that's a fact...you want Universal or Paramount etc in HD 1080P or even 1080i?...get an HD DVD player.
My Blu-ray copy of Mission Impossible III clearly says Paramount Pictures and 1080p, so I believe you're exaggerating.

Truth is, two of those 3 exclusive studios released have about fifty titles between them, and 38 of those are available on Blu-ray (same goes for Warner and HD DVD titles, only a bit more so).

Blu-ray owners today are basically missing one studio (Universal), plus a very small number of titles from Paramount and Dreamworks.

HD DVD owners today are missing four studios (Sony, Disney, Fox, MGM), minus a few imports.

That leaving aside the dearth of upcoming content announced for HD DVD. Universal, Paramount, and Dreamworks have all been awfully quiet about announcing any new red cased discs in the future. Should one or more of those studios end up breaking ranks, let it never be said by HD DVD owners that they were blindsided by the move.

Even if studios were inclined to eat the authoring/production costs of making movies on both formats, retailers don't want to stack 2 copies of 10,000 movies. They are already phasing out P&S SKUs of widescreen movies due to how much floor space that eats up.

Additionally authoring for two formats requires either common encodes to cut production costs or much higher production costs to do seperate encodes/features for each version that has to be passed on to a consumer.

Ever wonder why buying a movie on iTunes costs so much and doesn't even have special features, good picture, etc? See above.

Retailers don't want to carry 2 formats? But they do carry P&S and widescreen versions? Don't forget that UMD section at BB.

The reality is, that if something can be sold for a profit, a retailer will carry it. That is why you have iPod movies, UMD movies, etc. as well as SD DVD.

BTW, why does my local retailer carry 4 brands of 2% 1 gallon jugs of milk. They all taste the same to me. Couldn't they save shelf space and only offer one?

Your argument does not hold water.

Watching hd dvd fans post these various threads is like watching a worm caught on a hook wriggling around. Lots of flagellation, but going absolutely nowhere.

Bottom line, you're going nowhere with two studio support where one of those studios, Paramount is a laggard and the other, Universal, is ramming down expensive combo discs onto consumers. I haven't purchased a single combo disc from universal and I'm not about to start. And Paramount I view as borderline useless. Big catalog, who cares, if they don't bother releasing it or taking hdm seriously.

The two studios are looking at the other, figuring, who's going to bolt first and who's going to be left looking like a shmuck as the only guys backing a failed format. As a studio head, you don't want that stench at the annual stockholder's meeting having to explain why you didn't see it coming when everybody and their grandmother had predicted the outcome.

Honestly? I think even Toshiba has moved beyond many HD DVD supporters here. Their new "bring it directly to the consumer" campaign is an attempt to sell "upconverters with HD capabilities" directly to the consumer, bypassing the studios. This was never their strategy until Warner pulled out. It's obvious to anyone not married to a format, that Toshiba is trying to run out the clock by slashing the price on players and protecting their Para & Uni relationship - all in the name of perpetuating SD DVD royalties. Whether or not people here know it, Toshiba does and is acting accordingly. "Coexistence" would also become part of this startegy - and it never was before. If the prospects of winning are in doubt then the next best thing is to drag it out hoping for something to change in their favor.

Exactly. Since they are the Hardware source for HD DVD, they have to dump what they can.

One thing the consumer may perceive, and think is reality - Toshiba is HD DVD, and all other CE manufaturers are Blu. Thus having 3/4 of the Studios exclusive, plus Tosh vs Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer - you get the picture.

Both Hardware and Software suggest all vs. one. Who would you pick as J6P?

So your friends and family are forcing you into buying evil sony proprietary formats!

Where the heck did that come from? You are losing all credibility there.

I just pointed out that my TV, Wii, other cameras, PDA, and camcorder all support SD cards. That is why I do not like nor want a memory stick...but because I got a camera for free, I went ahead and bought one anyway.

BTW, why do you think Sony is evil? I know I never said that and YOU did.

Watching hd dvd fans post these various threads is like watching a worm caught on a hook wriggling around. Lots of flagellation, but going absolutely nowhere.



You should have read at least a little before you posted! I'm not an HD-DVD fan. I have no allegiance to any HDM manufacturer at this point. I have a free HD-DVD player in my H/T room and I purchased one movie to see what it looked like. (P.S. It looked great!)

Agree, thats the way it should have been...
It’s much easier for hardware vendors to support multiple formats since it might require having as many as 8 current models instead of 4, unlike the studios that potentially has tens of thousands of titles times 2 to have to deal with.

Good point.
Indeed who had the better shot at uniformity?

CE companies with backgrounds in making various things & ideas work together?

Or "studio, executive types"?

Hard to see the studio executive types ever coming to a conensus.

Retailers don't want to carry 2 formats? But they do carry P&S and widescreen versions? Don't forget that UMD section at BB.

The reality is, that if something can be sold for a profit, a retailer will carry it. That is why you have iPod movies, UMD movies, etc. as well as SD DVD.

BTW, why does my local retailer carry 4 brands of 2% 1 gallon jugs of milk. They all taste the same to me. Couldn't they save shelf space and only offer one?

Your argument does not hold water.


You are comparing having 4 SKUs of milk to having 4 SKUS (BD, HD DVD, P&S and WS DVD) of 10,000 movie titles and you're telling me my argument doesn't hold water?

Retailers stopped carrying LD (long before the format was dead) because they took up floor space and didn't make them money.

In any event you failed to address any of the other points I brought up which are totally valid. Remember that optical HDM is an avenue for studios to protect the lucrative physical media market which is worth billions of dollars. To do this they have to offer a profitable product that offers compelling reasons such as superb AQ/PQ, nice extras, etc, that make it worth getting over the cheap on-demand or online rental option.

I don't see how studios spending more money on producing two versions of a discs helps them achieve this aim.

Retailers stopped carrying LD because they took up floor space and didn't make them money.


The key is the latter half of this sentence. Had LD been making money, retailers would have found the space, even if it had been right beside the betamax $5 bin.

The key is the latter half of this sentence. Had LD been making money, retailers would have found the space, even if it had been right beside the betamax $5 bin.

LD was very expensive so I'm sure that the discs themselves were profitable. The problem was sales volume was extremely low. Similar to the situation that we have currently with optical HDM.

The best way to make HDM a profitable thing that retailers want to carry without any special incentives is to have a single optical HDM format that eliminates customer confusion about which studios support which format and which hardware you need to play each formats content.

You should have read at least a little before you posted! I'm not an HD-DVD fan. I have no allegiance to any HDM manufacturer at this point. I have a free HD-DVD player in my H/T room and I purchased one movie to see what it looked like. (P.S. It looked great!)

Whatever, if you have no interest in the format, then why the thread?

[QUOTE=flyin_frenchman;12990232]

I know why a zune owner doesn't mind other people having ipods:

It's because he can play the same music, from the same artists.

:eek:

Kind of different than HDM.

That would be incorrect. Songs bought on iTunes are stuck with iTunes unless a few hoops are jumped through and the law is broken. If that's the standard we're working with, BD's can be put on HDDVDs and otherwise.

Whatever, if you have no interest in the format, then why the thread?

Passes the time. (Audio used to be my biggest hobby, so I feel a kinship with forums like this. My new hobby is photography, but the changes to equipment are slow, and I master the news on those forums too quickly. That leaves forums like this to play in, which are neither too boring, nor to uninteresting to loose my interest. I tried randi.org for a while, but got too irritated with the God bashing!)

Since they are the Hardware source for HD DVD, they have to dump what they can.

While we agree, i wouldn't necessarily describe it as "dumping". Toshiba will produce and sell as many HD DVD players as possible. At this point the more they mess the market up, the better it is for them. Kind of like when lawyers know they are going to lose a case, the last hope is to confuse the case as much as possible.

[QUOTE=Jiffylush;12990263]

That would be incorrect. Songs bought on iTunes are stuck with iTunes unless a few hoops are jumped through and the law is broken. If that's the standard we're working with, BD's can be put on HDDVDs and otherwise.

Actually the standard we are working with is the song.

Not a file purchased at a particular store.

The reason you have the player is to hear the music, and you can get the same music to play on both players. That is different than the current state of HDM, as we can't get the same movies to play in HD on both players.

So where the zune and ipod can coexist easily (although clearly not equally), at this time HD DVD and BD cannot, because there isn't a way to get all the content you want on your player.

I would like to see dual format players become the norm. That way the consumer won't even have a strong notion of the two formats . They will just be buying HDM. The studios can release whatever format is politic for them at the time and leave the buying public out of their squabbles.

While we agree, i wouldn't necessarily describe it as "dumping". Toshiba will produce and sell as many HD DVD players as possible. At this point the more they mess the market up, the better it is for them.

I agree they need an outlet for their players, but to say "mess the market up, the better it is for them" is a good thing how?

I believe that they will become one of the leading hardware suppliers for Blu-Ray in the next year or less so I can't see them pooping on their future market.

In an article in today's NYT, the author suggests that the format war is holding back HDM adoption. So that's one more vote for co-existence is the problem.

In This War, How to Ally With Both
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/technology/personaltech/31pogue.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin

The electronics industry has spent billions of dollars on a stupid and unnecessary battle between the next-generation DVD formats: Blu-ray and HD DVD. And so far, it’s all been pretty much for nothing; consumers aren’t touching the things. Nobody wants to risk buying a DVD player that can play only half of the world’s movies....

But a couple of weeks ago, there was a seismic shift in the format war: Warner Brothers Entertainment, one of the biggest movie studios, announced that starting in June, it would issue its movies in the Blu-ray format instead of HD DVD. At that point, three-quarters of all high-def movies will be offered only in Blu-ray.

Plenty of pundits applauded the Warner departure, declaring the format war essentially over.

The HD DVD camp, however, is declaring itself not dead yet....

Callous as this may sound, the world would be a lot better off if HD DVD would just go ahead and die; the lingering format war is keeping the whole new world of high-def movies on DVD from blossoming.

And yet people continue to insist that coexistence is "good".

The only people who coexistence is "good" for are those who are so cheap that they want a $149 player rather than waiting for prices to naturally come down, or those who own one format and refuse to give up on it.

I have to respectfully disagree. Not everyone who thinks coexistance is possible and in many ways a good thing is "cheap" or a HD DVD-only person that simply doesn't want "their" format to go down the tubes.

Someone else put it very well. The industry moving to one format is akin to creating a highway system and deciding which side of the road everyone will drive on. Until that happens commerce/traffic-flow will be marginal at best.

Not the best analogy in my opinion. It's the threat of one format getting crushed that scares people away. If a stalemate or truce was declared and coexistance was accepted, HDM adoption would continue unimpeded for the most part. Dual format players would likely become the norm. No retailer I know of has 10,000 movie titles on the floor. If HD DVD or BD is selling well, it's worth the floor space. As with DVD, you only stock the titles that sell the best. Likewise, as sales of both HDM formats ramp up, some regular DVD floor space and be "reclaimed".

I understand "everybody" WANTS one format but the fact is we already have two formats. I'm amazed that so many people think stamping out an already-established HDM format is any less absurd or offensive than the notion of coexistence, or live and let live. This idea that we NEED one format or else HDM is doomed to niche status is paradoxical and very much a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In an article in today's NYT, the author suggests that the format war is holding back HDM adoption. So that's one more vote for co-existence is the problem.


Why wouldn't the author simply want Blu-Ray to die instead of HD-DVD? Unbiased opinion, or rehashed trash?

Here's the kicker. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are currently coexisting whether this thread influences people or not. Guess will have to live with it, huh? Make the most of it. Go neutral!

Slim...
I agree with you.
That's what Jiffylush said, not me.
:o

Why wouldn't the author simply want Blu-Ray to die instead of HD-DVD? Unbiased opinion, or rehashed trash?

Here's the kicker. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are currently coexisting whether this thread influences people or not. Guess will have to live with it, huh? Make the most of it. Go neutral!


Yes, but the current situation is not desireable. Adoption rates are certainly being hindered by the current situation. This should be obvious to anyone with only a few die hards insisting otherwise.

Additionally once the Warner change occurs this spring, it's going to make things even harder for HD DVD. We are looking at 85:15 numbers now, how much worse when there are only two studios backing the format? Do you really think that Universal and Paramount want to fight over the 15% of dollars being spent on a niche format?

This is all about economies of scale. Having two formats makes zero sense. All that it will do is mean added costs which consumers will have to eat. Instead of getting a $199-$299 single format players consumers will be forced to spend more for a combo player not to mention having a box with two SOCS to play each format, more components that can fail, added studio costs of authoring in two formats, etc, etc, etc.

HD DVD gave it a good run but it's time to put this "coexistence" thing to bed and for Toshiba to retire the format gracefully rather than dragging this thing out any longer.

If anything it should be evident that Toshiba themselves have lost confidence in the format. Their new strategy appears to be "lets get as many sockets in the market as possible and try to force some sort of truce or adoption of HD DVD spec by the BDA". The problem Toshiba is facing is that those "sockets" aren't being filled. HD DVD software is now selling terribly, which means that there is no incentive for the BDA to give in at all. I suspect that we will see a lot of things occurring around Q3 this year that won't be good for Toshiba.

Why wouldn't the author simply want Blu-Ray to die instead of HD-DVD? Unbiased opinion, or rehashed trash?

Here's the kicker. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are currently coexisting whether this thread influences people or not. Guess will have to live with it, huh? Make the most of it. Go neutral!

Beta-Max co-existed too. infact was the Pro's choice for years, doesnt mean that the mainstream consumer did not choose a side. Co-existance in similar electronic products is not going to happen, one will always be relegated to a niche product like beta-max.

VHS, and DVD was not the right analogy
VHS, and Beta-max is.

Why wouldn't the author simply want Blu-Ray to die instead of HD-DVD? Unbiased opinion, or rehashed trash?

Here's the kicker. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are currently coexisting whether this thread influences people or not. Guess will have to live with it, huh? Make the most of it. Go neutral!

+1 and neutral

In an article in today's NYT, the author suggests that the format war is holding back HDM adoption. So that's one more vote for co-existence is the problem.

The format war holds back HDM adoption precisely because popular editorial opinion is that one format can and will win, relegating the other to extinction. As long as the horse race mentality prevails and one format is seen as being vulnerable, this situation will continue. However, if things reach a stalemate or stabilize over time and it becomes increasingly evident that both formats are here to say, then coexistence will not be a problem.

One way or the other, this thing will work itself out.

The format war holds back HDM adoption precisely because popular editorial opinion is that one format can and will win, relegating the other to extinction. As long as the horse race mentality prevails and one format is seen as being vulnerable, this situation will continue. However, if things reach a stalemate or stabilize over time and it becomes increasingly evident that both formats are here to say, then coexistence will not be a problem.

One way or the other, this thing will work itself out.

Agreed. The fact that studios are more likely now to be exclusive of one format or the other is helping end and not prolong the 'war.' Warner did the right thing. Once Paramount went exclusive, it was a sign of the either/or - not coexistence. The irony is that Toshiba by pushing Paramount's exclusivity may have in the long run set the stage for their loss - and the end of coexistence.

The format war holds back HDM adoption precisely because popular editorial opinion is that one format can and will win, relegating the other to extinction. As long as the horse race mentality prevails and one format is seen as being vulnerable, this situation will continue.

I think this popular opinion is based a lot on the previous VHS/Beta experience. One side DID win and many who have this "horse race" mentality over the HD DVD vs BD wars were burned by betting on the loser last time. Or at least they heard about it.

Analysts far and wide say a single format is necessary. IMO those who say otherwise are kidding themselves.

VHS, and DVD was not the right analogy
VHS, and Beta-max is.


Both work, as my emphasis was not on the coexistence of the formats, but rather the consumers ability to purchase the correct software version (VHS or DVD) for their particular player.

My point was that with education, the consumer can choose the correct disc for their HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player, making the 'The consumer is too confused' excuse as an argument for the elimination of one format not important.

Analysts far and wide say a single format is necessary. IMO those who say otherwise are kidding themselves.

Who's analysts? I'd say most have ties to the BD camp.

[QUOTE=Slim GoodBooty;12991358]

Actually the standard we are working with is the song.

Not a file purchased at a particular store.

The reason you have the player is to hear the music, and you can get the same music to play on both players. That is different than the current state of HDM, as we can't get the same movies to play in HD on both players.

So where the zune and ipod can coexist easily (although clearly not equally), at this time HD DVD and BD cannot, because there isn't a way to get all the content you want on your player.

The iPod and the Zune are exactly like BD and HDDVD no matter how you spin it. Not all content can not be bought for both and when bought all content will nto play on both. Just like games.

[QUOTE=Jiffylush;12991423]

The iPod and the Zune are exactly like BD and HDDVD no matter how you spin it. Not all content can not be bought for both and when bought all content will nto play on both. Just like games.

How many people bought an iPod and a Zune because this song they love is only available on one of them?

None?

Thanks.

Analysts far and wide say a single format is necessary. IMO those who say otherwise are kidding themselves.
Who's analysts? I'd say most have ties to the BD camp.
:rolleyes:

Who's analysts? I'd say most have ties to the BD camp.

"Reality Has a Well-Known Liberal Bias"

Stephen Colbert

Who's analysts? I'd say most have ties to the BD camp.Where's that tinfoil hat...

The format war holds back HDM adoption precisely because popular editorial opinion is that one format can and will win, relegating the other to extinction. As long as the horse race mentality prevails and one format is seen as being vulnerable, this situation will continue. However, if things reach a stalemate or stabilize over time and it becomes increasingly evident that both formats are here to say, then coexistence will not be a problem.

One way or the other, this thing will work itself out.

The format war hurts adoption because people won't buy a format that might lose in a format war. They learned from VHS v. Betamax. What some call "popular editorial opinion" is a reflection of what the consumer is actually doing. The fact is that most people think only one format will win and this discussion reflects that fact. This isn't a bunch of elitists theorizing, it is simply applying a label to the realities of the marketplace.

But we agree that this thing will work itself out, as the Nielsen numbers are showing.

:-)

What makes you think I missed them? :confused:

Because you don't agree with him yet.

The reality is as I said...Studios make more from the exclusive contracts than they ever could from selling HDM discs.

Did you just make this up on the fly? And if so, do you actually believe it?


-Use the camera and live with the 8-10 picture limit.
-Buy the darn memory stick that does not work with my PDA, other cameras, TV, Wii, camcorder, etc.

I have a canon that holds 0 pictures and requires a memory cartridge that doesn't work with a PDA, other cameras (that use different memory, obviously), my TV, a Wii, or camcorders. I hope that you take Canon to task for this absurd behavior.

Brandon

I agree they need an outlet for their players, but to say "mess the market up, the better it is for them" is a good thing how?

I believe that they will become one of the leading hardware suppliers for Blu-Ray in the next year or less so I can't see them pooping on their future market.

It's a lawyering and marketing strategy. In Toshiba's case, the market they are messing up is the current HDM one - the battle between HD & BD more specifically. They have little prospect of winning so they inject 50% price reductions and rebranding as "upconverters". The strategy isn't to win anymore it's to drag the battle out, keep BD from winning and continue to reap royalties from SD DVD as long as possible. Things change over time, so why not extend the time you are playing the game? Vince Lombardi once said "the Packers never lose, they just run out of time". This is Toshiba's way of creating time.

As far as polluting their market, they aren't. They are polluting the current one which they probably can't win. That is not to say they won't jump into a new market like dual format or BD players. I also purposely used the word "probably". It is still possible something could happen for them to dominate HDM with HD DVD. Not likely, but possible, given some time (which they are creating).

Both work, as my emphasis was not on the coexistence of the formats, but rather the consumers ability to purchase the correct software version (VHS or DVD) for their particular player.

My point was that with education, the consumer can choose the correct disc for their HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player, making the 'The consumer is too confused' excuse as an argument for the elimination of one format not important.

Confusion was never the reason for VHS v/s Beta Content was. Technically Beta was superior.
Likewise it is proving once again that even though techinically HD DVD was superior out of the gate content drove the consumer to Blu-ray. looks like eventually Blu-ray will be technically equivalent to HD DVD.
Content is King, and HD DVD seems to be hemorrhaging exclusive content, not the right trend for co-existance, however nice that might be for the early adopter who invested in the format.
In the end the content owners deceided which product they thought was was more likely to drive future profits based on the early adopter's purchasing trends.
Which leads to HD DVD owners did not buy enough dics to disuade the providers of the idea that Blu-ray was selling more discs.

How many people bought an iPod and a Zune because this song they love is only available on one of them?

None?

Thanks.

I noticed how you keep switching to audio when we are talking about video. Nice.

The big difference that I have mentioned before is that we have companies willing to spend huge amounts of money to buy exclusivity. That has not happened yet in the iPod/Zune/PSP world...although I doubt Sony supports anything but UDM and the PSP.

Yes, but the current situation is not desireable. Adoption rates are certainly being hindered by the current situation. This should be obvious to anyone with only a few die hards insisting otherwise.

One would think.

The format war holds back HDM adoption precisely because popular editorial opinion is that one format can and will win, relegating the other to extinction.

Who's analysts? I'd say most have ties to the BD camp.

<sigh>

Brandon

If you can't taste the sarcasm it's not my loss!

That said, isn't it funny that HD Audio depended upon home theaters to provide a market!!!!!

Hysterical ....

I figure I am one of about a dozen consumers world-wide who have a surround sound system primarily for music. I buy, when available, both SACD and DVD-A and find them to be AWESOME.

If it takes mass-fi home theater to provided HD audio .... bring it on!

I have to respectfully disagree. Not everyone who thinks coexistance is possible and in many ways a good thing is "cheap" or a HD DVD-only person that simply doesn't want "their" format to go down the tubes.



Not the best analogy in my opinion. It's the threat of one format getting crushed that scares people away. If a stalemate or truce was declared and coexistance was accepted, HDM adoption would continue unimpeded for the most part. Dual format players would likely become the norm. No retailer I know of has 10,000 movie titles on the floor. If HD DVD or BD is selling well, it's worth the floor space. As with DVD, you only stock the titles that sell the best. Likewise, as sales of both HDM formats ramp up, some regular DVD floor space and be "reclaimed".

I understand "everybody" WANTS one format but the fact is we already have two formats. I'm amazed that so many people think stamping out an already-established HDM format is any less absurd or offensive than the notion of coexistence, or live and let live. This idea that we NEED one format or else HDM is doomed to niche status is paradoxical and very much a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My man you have hit the nail right on the proverbial head with that one. Too bad others here can't see your logic, well done!

I noticed how you keep switching to audio when we are talking about video. Nice.

The big difference that I have mentioned before is that we have companies willing to spend huge amounts of money to buy exclusivity. That has not happened yet in the iPod/Zune/PSP world...although I doubt Sony supports anything but UDM and the PSP.

I was responding to this

The iPod and the Zune are exactly like BD and HDDVD no matter how you spin it. Not all content can not be bought for both and when bought all content will nto play on both. Just like games.

I have a question, why didn't you put this much time and energy into choosing the HDM format with brightest future like the majority of HDM supporters did?

Why wouldn't the author simply want Blu-Ray to die instead of HD-DVD? Unbiased opinion, or rehashed trash?

Here's the kicker. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are currently coexisting whether this thread influences people or not. Guess will have to live with it, huh? Make the most of it. Go neutral!

Rehashed trash, yep, that describes this thread to a T. Two teams are on the football field, one team is crushing the other team, they are "co-existing" in your opinion, in most other people's opinion, they're getting blasted. And you want people here to bet on the loser?! I don't think so.

[QUOTE=Jiffylush;12991423]

The iPod and the Zune are exactly like BD and HDDVD no matter how you spin it. Not all content can not be bought for both and when bought all content will nto play on both.

I don't think one has to spin anything. Both play MP3's just fine.

[QUOTE=Slim GoodBooty;12991947]

I don't think one has to spin anything. Both play MP3's just fine.

And my HD DVD player will play all of the BD stuff I burn for it. I guess there is no issue after all. Thanks.

And my HD DVD player will play all of the BD stuff I burn for it. I guess there is no issue after all. Thanks.

Well, you lost me!

Well, you lost me!

I thought you wanted to talk about ripped and downloaded content. You and others sure don't want to talk about purchased content, because it doesn't fit your view of the issue.

you know in a thread with this title we hoped members would consider taking the high road in their posts

...rather than risk infraction points

[QUOTE=Jiffylush;12991423]

The iPod and the Zune are exactly like BD and HDDVD no matter how you spin it. Not all content can not be bought for both and when bought all content will nto play on both. Just like games.


There is a difference. There is pretty much zero cost for producing an audio file for a Zune compared to for an iPod.

Additionally there is no physical retail presence that must stock 10,000 copies of an album for Zune and another 10,000 copies of an album for iPod.

There is a difference. There is pretty much zero cost for producing an audio file for a Zune compared to for an iPod.

Additionally there is no physical retail presence that must stock 10,000 copies of an album for Zune and another 10,000 copies of an album for iPod.

Well, unless Best Buy is just not going to carry Uni and P/DW HD movies and Toshiba DVD players, you don't have a case.

I have to respectfully disagree. Not everyone who thinks coexistance is possible and in many ways a good thing is "cheap" or a HD DVD-only person that simply doesn't want "their" format to go down the tubes.



Not the best analogy in my opinion. It's the threat of one format getting crushed that scares people away. If a stalemate or truce was declared and coexistance was accepted, HDM adoption would continue unimpeded for the most part. Dual format players would likely become the norm. No retailer I know of has 10,000 movie titles on the floor. If HD DVD or BD is selling well, it's worth the floor space. As with DVD, you only stock the titles that sell the best. Likewise, as sales of both HDM formats ramp up, some regular DVD floor space and be "reclaimed".

I understand "everybody" WANTS one format but the fact is we already have two formats. I'm amazed that so many people think stamping out an already-established HDM format is any less absurd or offensive than the notion of coexistence, or live and let live. This idea that we NEED one format or else HDM is doomed to niche status is paradoxical and very much a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You are right, the problem is the perception that consumers have that one format is doomed.

This perception is not the fault of the media, who might enjoy spinning this, the problem is that there is already a precursor to the current situation in which customers who chose Betamax over VHS ultimately had made a "wasted" investment (sometimes over $1000) and could no longer watch new movies.

Consumers remember VHS vs. Betamax, and to add insult to injury, this go around they can't even get all of the content on a single format (not a problem during Beta vs. VHS).

Whether a real threat or a perceived one, consumers won't be able to get most movies on HD DVD in a few months, which makes coexistence highly improbable.

Well, unless Best Buy is just not going to carry Uni and P/DW HD movies and Toshiba DVD players, you don't have a case.

You misunderstand. The whole argument of coexistence is that we should have 1 BD and 1 HD DVD sitting on the shelf for every movie title we might want to buy.

I have to coordinate with my buddies and make sure I'm buying in the same format as them so I can lend a movie to them or borrow one.

I have to know what format family members have so that I can give them the right gift at Xmas time.

The alternative is just as unattractive. A bi-polar CE world where you have to buy combo players that cost more than a single format player would and in all likelihood do a sub-par job with both formats.

Why this is a world you guys want is beyond me.

You misunderstand. The whole argument of coexistence is that we should have 1 BD and 1 HD DVD sitting on the shelf for every movie title we might want to buy.

I have to coordinate with my buddies and make sure I'm buying in the same format as them so I can lend a movie to them or borrow one.

I have to know what format family members have so that I can give them the right gift at Xmas time.

The alternative is just as unattractive. A bi-polar CE world where you have to buy combo players that cost more than a single format player would and in all likelihood do a sub-par job with both formats.

Why this is a world you guys want is beyond me.

I just went with what you said about retailers. You keep saying that BD player prices will come down, but somehow feel that dual players won't. Your view is more than a little uneven, friend.:D

I just went with what you said about retailers. You keep saying that BD player prices will come down, but somehow feel that dual players won't. Your view is more than a little uneven, friend.:D

Prices on both will come down. However, I have a hard time believing that we will see $299 BD 2.0/HD DVD combo players within a year. I do believe we will see $299 BD 2.0 players in less than a year.

they are coexisting in my rack right now :D

color coding the formats was a stroke of genius. i don't think anyone will get confused between them. i think you might have more confusion from people who own a regular dvd player buying an HD disc thinking it's a regular dvd.

even my 9 year old knows which disc to stick in which player. he even knows how to handle the combo discs.

i can't wait till the end of the year to see how this drama pans out. i think i am enjoying the format war more than the HD movies themselves :D

they are coexisting in my rack right now

color coding the formats was a stroke of genius. i don't think anyone will get confused between them. i think you might have more confusion from people who own a regular dvd player buying an HD disc thinking it's a regular dvd.

even my 9 year old knows which disc to stick in which player. he even knows how to handle the combo discs.

i can't wait till the end of the year to see how this drama pans out. i think i am enjoying the format war more than the HD movies themselves

Thanks for making my point about being able to learn how to distinguish between discs. If your 9 year old can do it, that means at least 78% of the buying public will be able to with limited or no help from an instruction booklet!

Thanks for making my point about being able to learn how to distinguish between discs. If your 9 year old can do it, that means at least 78% of the buying public will be able to with limited or no help from an instruction booklet!
Never, ever underestimate the power of human stupidity. There are people out there who mistakenly buy HD DVDs thinking they're going to work in their regular DVD players. Expecting those self-same folks to know why a disc case is colored blue or red is expecting a bit much; when you put the case away, unless you can see the HD DVD or Blu-ray logo, there's very little difference between a CD, a DVD, a Blu-ray, or an HD DVD upon a physical inspection of the disc.

The format war hurts adoption because people won't buy a format that might lose in a format war. They learned from VHS v. Betamax. What some call "popular editorial opinion" is a reflection of what the consumer is actually doing. The fact is that most people think only one format will win and this discussion reflects that fact. This isn't a bunch of elitists theorizing, it is simply applying a label to the realities of the marketplace.

This is a bit of a chicken and egg argument. Maybe we could agree that it's both, that editorial opinion and consumer opinion/action feed off each other to a significant degree. Obviously the legacy of "VHS vs. Betamax" has not been forgotten and helped to cement in place the idea of "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE".

Having one format certainly makes sense, but the reality is that we have two formats. Often history repeats itself, but not always. The times are a-changing. There are more choices and formats and technologies than ever and that is the trend of the 21st century. The reality is that neither BD or HD DVD may ever become what DVD is today. The studios and CE companies are only trying to force one format on us now because they think they can. And they may very well be right.

All I am saying is it doesn't absolutely and positively have to be one format or else all HDM is doomed. That argument just doesn't ring true. The reality is that this world is big enough for two formats, whether the studios, CE companies, and retailers like it or not.

i know we have had numerous parodies but thats why sacd and dvd-a failed one
artists on one format and another on the other 2 players 2 incompatible formats
and twice the confusion like what is taking place now.

This is a bit of a chicken and egg argument. Maybe we could agree that it's both, that editorial opinion and consumer opinion/action feed off each other to a significant degree. Obviously the legacy of "VHS vs. Betamax" has not been forgotten and helped to cement in place the idea of "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE".

Having one format certainly makes sense, but the reality is that we have two formats. Often history repeats itself, but not always. The times are a-changing. There are more choices and formats and technologies than ever and that is the trend of the 21st century. The reality is that neither BD or HD DVD may ever become what DVD is today. The studios and CE companies are only trying to force one format on us now because they think they can. And they may very well be right.

All I am saying is it doesn't absolutely and positively have to be one format or else all HDM is doomed. That argument just doesn't ring true. The reality is that this world is big enough for two formats, whether the studios, CE companies, and retailers like it or not.

Agreed on the essential points.

Having one format certainly makes sense, but the reality is that we have two formats. Often history repeats itself, but not always. The times are a-changing. There are more choices and formats and technologies than ever and that is the trend of the 21st century. The reality is that neither BD or HD DVD may ever become what DVD is today.

Mr. Dylan had something there didn't he?

This is a bit of a chicken and egg argument. Maybe we could agree that it's both, that editorial opinion and consumer opinion/action feed off each other to a significant degree. Obviously the legacy of "VHS vs. Betamax" has not been forgotten and helped to cement in place the idea of "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE".

Having one format certainly makes sense, but the reality is that we have two formats. Often history repeats itself, but not always. The times are a-changing. There are more choices and formats and technologies than ever and that is the trend of the 21st century. The reality is that neither BD or HD DVD may ever become what DVD is today. The studios and CE companies are only trying to force one format on us now because they think they can. And they may very well be right.

All I am saying is it doesn't absolutely and positively have to be one format or else all HDM is doomed. That argument just doesn't ring true. The reality is that this world is big enough for two formats, whether the studios, CE companies, and retailers like it or not.

You do mention that having one format makes sense, while it maybe big enough for two formats, that statement negates want. Most of us want one format for simple reasons. Less boxes, less wires, less of everything in general and more of a uniform industry that makes it easier for consumers in the long run.

While it maybe big enough for two formats, that statement negates want. Most of us want one format for simple reasons. Less boxes, less wires, less of everything in general and more of a uniform industry that makes it easier for consumers in the long run.

exactly one player all the movies quite simple and o yea a lot less wires.

exactly one player all the movies quite simple and o yea a lot less wires.

People already have that and they have several of them.

People already have that and they have several of them.

are you referring to the combi players i almost bought into one until i read
the reviews.

are you referring to the combi players i almost bought into one until i read
the reviews.

No, I was speaking of DVD players. One player to rule them all.

At what point will the HD DVD group finally admit defeat....

I think I speak for the majority of BD owners that we are not going to buy another player to get titles from only two studios come May. HD DVD PRG thought getting Paramount and Transformers exclusively would convince HDM buyers to buy both. Well you might have got a few, but the majority did not bite. Do you really think HD DVD PRG is going to convince the majority to go dual format at this point?

Dual format players have had way too many issues to even be considered viable and by the time one company gets it right HD DVD is probably not going to be here, not to mention dual format players are expensive.

And for all the bragging about how cheap it is to get into HD DVD, if I want a high end player with true 1080p24 output and bitstreaming audio I have to get Toshiba's most expensive model at $300. So where is the savings again? Remember HD DVD software costs the same as BD software.

Sorry HD DVD had its chance. If Universal and Paramount want my cash for HDM it will have to be blu.

I just don't know what Toshiba has to gain at this point other than being sore losers and spoiling BDs future. If thats the case I won't ever buy a Toshiba branded product again.

No, I was speaking of DVD players. One player to rule them all.

i have a good one already integra dps 10.5 which cost more than a hd-dvd
and blu-ray player combined. also both hd-dvd and blu-ray play dvd not
sure i understand what you are getting at.

Nice post!

In spite of any theories we might have about education or reeducation on this coexistence idea, we really should reexamine some recent and ancient history for guidance on how feasible it really is.

The fact remains that for all of 2007, both formats missed the targets they set in CES07. I don't know home much they missed it by, but I suspect in terms of players, both sides only sold 1/4 to 2/5 of what they thought they would.

People buy entertainment toys largely as impulse buys, you're not going to appeal to people's logic to get them to take what you want to sell. When it comes to selling HDTV or HT or movie boxes, you have to go after something else.

Right now, whether it's apathy or fear, noone can know for sure, but I believe we have enough compelling reason that it's a complex mix with apathy gaining the upper hand over fear. The threat of obsolescence is the main item affecting the people who really want HDM but don't want to relive the last days of LD or Betamax.

That's the group that will buy once they believe the format war is settled. But this group will not buy into either formats until they feel like it.

The second group is not entering due to apathy, they have to be convinced that their lifes have no meaning unless they get a HDM player. As for the marketing campaign needed, I don't believe you can convince any large group with all the advertising budgets in the world when there is this elephant in the room called "two players to play all the movies".

As enthusiasts, it's very easy for us to buy two players, but as for the vast number of normal people, convincing them to get two players isn't an easy task either, it's so much easier to just not buy either.

We are also ignoring one reality in the buying patterns of toys, normal people have brand preferences in their toys, there are Pioneer owners, Panasonic owners, Sony owners, where people historically prefer certain brands, perhaps they even want the same name on all their gear, or perhaps they just historically have had years or decades of good use of certain brands.

It is this brand preference that overcame Sony's 100% mkt share in betamax's yr1 when Panasonic, JVC, RCA and others flooded the market with their own brands of VHS decks. These VHS decks together took 40% of the market away from sony in betamax's 2nd yr, forcing Sony to license Betamax to Toshiba, Sanyo, NEC. I believe we are seeing the same effect here for why Toshiba in spite of releasing first, in spite of pricing their players 1/2 to 1/3 of BD players were not able to take the market away from BD.

It also explains why Q4 and January saw standalone BD players overtake HD DVD players. People buy CE toys not because it is cheap, they buy it because buying it makes them feel good about the purchase.

To summarize,

(1) Two players for us is not a big deal, two players for people outside of enthusiasts is a stupid idea that will never fly.
(2) People have brand preferences when they want to buy, some people will never buy LG, some will never buy samsung, some will never buy toshiba, some will never buy sony, and so on.
(3) While some here way feel the need to educate the masses of the wonders of coexistence, I fear WHV is educating the world that only BD will proceed, and we hear quite a few people in the industry echoing the same belief. The problem for the coexistence idea is that these are not normal jqps, but decision makers in the industry.

Right now, I don't see how coexistence can prevail, it might however be prolonged somewhat, but given the forces at play here, the length of time is measured in months and not years.
well said.

At what point will the HD DVDBD group finally admit defeat....

I think I speak for the majority of BD HD DVDowners that we are not going to buy another player to get titles from only two other studios come May. HD DVD PRG BD PRG thought getting Paramount and Transformers Warnerexclusively would convince HDM buyers to buy both. Well you might have got a few, but the majority did not bite. Do you really think HD DVD PRG BD PRG is going to convince the majority to go dual format at this point?

Dual format players have had way too many issues to even be considered viable and by the time one company gets it right BD is the one that needs to get it right. Where is profile 2.0?HD DVD is probably not going to be here, not to mention dual format players are expensive.

And for all the bragging about how cheap it is to get into HD DVD, if I want a high end player with true 1080p24 output and bitstreaming audio I have to get Toshiba's most expensive model at $300. So where is the savings again? Remember HD DVD software costs the same as BD software.

Sorry HD DVD had its chance. If Universal and Paramount want my cash for HDM it will have to be redblu.

I just don't know what Toshiba has to gain at this point other than being sore losers and spoiling BDs future. Awwwwwwwwwwwww what a shame If thats the case I won't ever buy a Toshiba Sonybranded product again.

Same thing over and over from bluand red


Color me

And for all the bragging about how cheap it is to get into HD DVD, if I want a high end player with true 1080p24 output and bitstreaming audio I have to get Toshiba's most expensive model at $300. So where is the savings again?

If you're referring to the HD-A35, it's $236.99 at Amazon and $234.99 at J&R. Very few receivers can decode TrueHD or DTA-MA and even if they could there's no benefit in doing so over LPCM output over the HDMI. That said, the HD-A30 will do 1080p24 and it's a scant 156.77 at Amazon right now.


I just don't know what Toshiba has to gain at this point other than being sore losers and spoiling BDs future. If thats the case I won't ever buy a Toshiba branded product again.

Wow. I guess that kinda says it all, doesn't it. :rolleyes:

I just don't know what Toshiba has to gain at this point other than being sore losers and spoiling BDs future.
How about making money on their investment?

Wich is it,

How about making money on their investment?
OR
I don't know about you, but unless I own stock in a company I don't figure they their profits are of concern to me.

Wich is it,


OR

No conflict there. Nice try though.:rolleyes:

No conflict there. Nice try though.:rolleyes:Sorry, it was not a try, it was your statements. I just asked a simple question!


How about making money on their investment?With this statement you are implying you are concerned and must own stock in Toshiba.

thank you