Ok thx.
I managed to have something ok for the dEs and the Lumas, but look at the saturation lineary, it looks really bad...

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/91dec5a8c2.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Looking at the color trinagle of your display without adjustments. My plan would be: dont' change Blue, move red half way and move green about 2/3 of the way. I would move the primary being adjusted by adding the other two primaries. This would take care of the florecent green but still leave you with a colorful display. The display color would be much improved. It's better to have a slightly over saturated display than an undersaturated display.

If you want to do a full CMS calibration you should really be using the Radiance. The Radiance has a 3D color pallet and you can fully calibrate in all the primary and secondary colors.

The Vision series can be used to mitigate the oversaturated green. This will greatly improve the color on your display but it has limits. This should be considered a primary color mitigation and not a full and complete calibration. We did what we could with the number of gates we had available. We posted this feature for "free" because we thought that it was useful for our customers who had a display with an oversaturated green primary.

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com

Ok thx Randy, I'll spend some time following your advice during the week-end and I'll give some feedback on the outcome ;)

And thank you for posting it Randy! It took a while to get it right but you can make an RS1 look really good using the gamut setting in the Vision VP's. I know it's not perfect but the funny greens are a thing of the past.

BangoO you just need to change the add and sub settings so that the tracking straightens out. Let it be a little over saturated. Try to keep the add's balanced and minimize the amount of sub to keep the primary and secondary colors from clipping using primary and secondary color ramps. Using the ramps gives you good visual feed back so you don't have to keep running the measurements. Also I don't agree with adjusting only red and green. Blue was still over saturated on my RS1. Plus green and red are better balanced if you pull in blue a little.

Ron

Thx for your answer Ronomy !
So it's the sub which is clipping the colors... but then the sub is useful to correct the luma, that's the only way I found to correct luma... how do you do it then ?

By the way my blue has a luma of -38% or so with everything setting by default.
Setting the color at 128 (instead of 112 which is the default) on the Lumagen fixes that.

Ronomy, would you mind posting your original CIE graph and your Lumagen gamut value ?
Maybe it would be a good start for me as the gammut of the RS1 and the RS10 seem close.
Thx ! ;)

By the way my blue has a luma of -38% or so with everything setting by default.
Setting the color at 128 (instead of 112 which is the default) on the Lumagen fixes that.Actually the factory default is 128, even though the text says 112. 128 gives correct color decoding (perfect Lumas on an RS1 uncorrected gamut). However, you will have to reduce this number to get good numbers with gamut correction.

Have you read all of the posts in this thread from people (me, Lawguy, Ronomy, etc.) who have gone through the entire process from where you are now starting? You can save a lot of bulb hours if you start with any of our final settings and make tiny adjustments.

--Dan

Yes I've read them all, and tried your values, but I have a RS10, not an RS1, so they do not really help a lot...

Thx for your answer Ronomy !
So it's the sub which is clipping the colors... but then the sub is useful to correct the luma, that's the only way I found to correct luma... how do you do it then ?

By the way my blue has a luma of -38% or so with everything setting by default.
Setting the color at 128 (instead of 112 which is the default) on the Lumagen fixes that.

Ronomy, would you mind posting your original CIE graph and your Lumagen gamut value ?
Maybe it would be a good start for me as the gammut of the RS1 and the RS10 seem close.
Thx ! ;)

If you are using PC level input to the HDP then 112 is the correct default color level. If you use video level input then 128 is default. Sub reduces clipping. Add will cause clipping and you lower the SUB enough to reduce the clipping. You need to watch for clipping in the primaries and secondaries. Luma in the primaries will be lower than the secondaries. There is no way around it. The more ADD you use the more it will be off. My RS1 ended up with Luma's around 10% low with secondaries pretty close to normal. On the RS1 it seems to affect 50% and above levels with lower color levels still over saturated.

I haven't measured my setup since last March so I don't have anything to post for you. Sorry. I have some files but i don't remember which ones were my final. They wouldn't help you anyway. The RS10 has colors that are even more over saturated so you'll end up not being able to dial it in as much as can be done with the RS1. Just because you would be using too much correction in the HDP. Hard to say until you try.

Thx Ronomy !

How do you "measure" clipping ?
I mean... how can I be sure that a color is not clipped ?

Thx Ronomy !

How do you "measure" clipping ?
I mean... how can I be sure that a color is not clipped ?

On the HDDVD Video essentials disc it has primary and secondary color ramps. You can visually see clipping with those patterns. The Bluray Basics disc doesn't have them for some reason.

Thx ! ;)

That helps a lot... I can't move both green and red without clipping yellow !
Oh well I can move them a little, but not enough to make a real difference before yellow is clipped :(

I can substract as much red from green as I want without clipping yellow, but I can only substract very little green from red without clipping yellow... how come ?

Subtract? Are you saying reducing the ADD in Green and Red? You have to be careful and try not to throw out of whack the red green balance which affects the secondary yellow. Your also adding blue to green and green affects yellow so you are adding blue to yellow as well unless you add an equal amount of red and blue to green so that the color cancels out although luma is still increased in the secondary. Lets use green as an example so you can see what is happening. Blue and Red Add numbers should be kept very close to the same number or you will screw up yellow and cyan. Add more red to green and yellow will pull toward red. Add more blue to green and cyan will pull towards blue. The more you Add to each primary the more luma you add to your secondaries. Post your settings you have now. Make sure you are not using the hue adjustment on the HDP. Make sure hue is set to it's default. Hue will throw your secondary luma way off.

Randy's suggestion to leave blue alone doesn't work for me because cyan and magenta are pulled towards blue after ADDing to red and green. So if you adjust red and green you have to also adjust blue or the secondaries will begin to shift with the more you ADD to the other two colors. You have to keep ADD balanced for each primary and then slightly adjust them so that your secondaries track closer to where they should be. Then also reduce the amount of SUB from each to add back some of the luma to the primaries. You can only reduce it to the point that the secondaries are beginning to clip in the ramps. You may need to go back and adjust the ADD's in each color to get the secondaries to track correctly after reducing the SUB numbers. It's time consuming but the only way to get it as close as you can to where it should be. You will need to live with some over saturation.

Ron

Thx a lot for your help so far Ronomy !

I mean that I can only add very little green to red, otherwise yellow is clipping.
Here are my values:

Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta White
x 0.666 0.292 0.141 0.451 0.205 0.324 0.313
y 0.332 0.702 0.049 0.544 0.327 0.148 0.326
Y 13.636 39.009 3.693 52.275 42.309 17.371 55.678
dE 26.9 29.2 5.1 20.4 14.0 15.3
dxy 0.026 0.102 0.014 0.050 0.019 0.007
dLuma +15.2 % -2.0 % -8.1 % +1.2 % -3.5 % +9.5 %


http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6479/image2uz9.png

Post your gamut settings in the HDP. Your luma is too high in Red. My Primaries are around -10 to -15% luma if I remember correctly after I was finished. All three primaries had very close luma levels with each other except for blue which looked way off but that was because the meter doesn't measure blue very well. Like you Magenta was a little high but I tried to keep all the secondary luma's near zero by dropping the primary luma's.

I've reset all my gamut settings as I could not get anything good...
I'll try again in an hour and post my results.

Your help is greatly appreciated Ronomy ;)

Did you try Lawguys settings? That looks similar to my saturation. I am surprised his numbers didn't work for you with maybe some minor adjustment.

Actually your red is more over saturated than mine. Blue is about the same. Green is about the same too.

BangoO

Jason at AVS had posted some settings for an RS10 that helped reduce the saturation. I can't find the thread any more. You may want to contact him and ask.

I've sent him a PM.

I dialed in Lawguy's settings:
R: SR 55, AG 17, AB 17
G: AR 60, SG 27, AB 65
B: AR 30, AG 27, SB 41

No color clipping at all, and here is the result:
Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta White
x 0.658 0.291 0.145 0.439 0.210 0.323 0.314
y 0.335 0.642 0.054 0.504 0.298 0.153 0.326
Y 8.402 32.136 2.947 51.734 45.201 15.012 57.083
dE 21.5 8.5 16.4 14.1 24.0 3.6
dxy 0.019 0.043 0.008 0.020 0.035 0.002
dLuma -30.8 % -21.3 % -28.5 % -2.3 % +0.6 % -7.7 %


What would you advise I do now ? ;)

Good place to start! What does the triangle look like? I need a visual to tell me where I need to adjust then I look at Luma and try to get it as high as I can on the primaries without increasing the saturation too much or clip the secondaries. It's a balancing act.

I modified it to those (change in bold):
R: SR 55, AG 17, AB 17
G: AR 60, SG 15, AB 65
B: AR 30, AG 27, SB 41

And here is the result:
Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta White
x 0.658 0.292 0.146 0.430 0.214 0.322 0.314
y 0.335 0.641 0.055 0.513 0.314 0.154 0.326
Y 8.201 35.023 2.961 53.834 48.670 14.792 55.379
dE 21.0 8.5 15.3 8.1 15.0 3.4
dxy 0.019 0.041 0.006 0.013 0.018 0.001
dLuma -30.4 % -11.6 % -25.9 % +4.8 % +11.6 % -6.2 %


http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2817/image2mq0.png

I'm a bit concerned that the saturation linearity does not look so good anymore, although it's not a catastrophy either...

Put green back to where is was and post the triangle. You should see yellow and cyan track better.

You mean putting it back to Lawguy's original values ?
Look at the dEs, it was a lot worse for yellow and cyan...
But I can do it and post it if you really need to ;)

DE's look better but luma is too high for those colors and you can see the 75% level tracking is off for yellow and cyan.

Ok here it is (but 75% level tracking is still off):

Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta White
x 0.658 0.292 0.147 0.436 0.212 0.320 0.314
y 0.334 0.630 0.055 0.500 0.298 0.153 0.326
Y 8.086 31.294 3.013 50.302 44.490 14.640 54.931
dE 21.1 8.3 14.1 13.6 23.4 3.3
dxy 0.018 0.031 0.006 0.018 0.033 0.001
dLuma -30.8 % -20.3 % -24.0 % -1.3 % +2.9 % -6.4 %


http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4018/image2ux4.png

You have to move cyan and yellow closer to green. The only way to do that is reduce the ADD colors to green which will saturate green more or you can add more green to red and blue. You really need to make small changes and learn what it does to the readings. It's just very time consuming. I put over 200 hours on my lamp when i did mine and you can't keep posting for every little change. Maybe we should take this offline using email.

I would probably start by reducing ADD to blue. Equally both colors by lets try 5 points. Then add 5 point of blue to red and reduce ADD green on red by 5. Reduce add blue on green by 5 as well.

Ron

I don't mind taking this offline but I guess some others could interested in this...

I changed as requested but it messed up my secondaries:

Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta White
x 0.655 0.294 0.145 0.439 0.209 0.310 0.314
y 0.331 0.636 0.053 0.494 0.292 0.144 0.326
Y 7.923 30.410 2.776 47.604 41.511 13.619 54.383
dE 21.7 8.5 16.4 18.0 27.3 8.9
dxy 0.015 0.037 0.009 0.023 0.040 0.015
dLuma -31.5 % -21.8 % -29.3 % -5.7 % -3.1 % -12.1 %


http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6672/image2uh6.png

I watched a movie tonight, and played with gamut on and off on multiple still scene.
The most probelmatic color to my eyes without gamut correction is the yellow.
All the characters look so taned, but not anymore with Lawguy's setting... and I'm sure we can do better ;)

Best I have seen yet is Lawguys numbers with Green SUB set to 15. Doesn't cyan and yellow clip with those settings? It is frustrating I know but you just need to find the right balance. Try Lawguys numbers with SUB set to 15. Then reduce Red and Blue ADD 5 points each in Green.

As an alternative use Lawguys numbers and reduce Red and Blue ADD for the Green by 5 to 10 points. Try both setups.

Sub Green to 15 is what I had tried above just before you asked me to come back to Lawguy's setting ;)
It was indeed a bit better on the secondaries.
I'll try both solutions tonight and get back to you !

Anything I can do to fix the 75% level tracking on all color related to green ?
Using Sub Green 15 did not fix it, maybe the other solution will...

Thx again Ronomy ;)

Reducing the amount of Red and Blue ADD to Green should help the 75% levels but you will have a more saturated green.

It's all about compromises then ;)

It's all about compromises then ;)

With the Vision series, absolutely!

Still, it's so much better than without it ;)

Ok whatever I do now seems to mess things up even more...

I'm back at the situation of post #521, where it's not that bad, but the red and blue lumas are really not that good...

I'm quite happy with image I got now compared to the one without gamut correction, I'm just wondering if fixing those lumas and the 75% level for green would make a very visible improvement...

If you don't have any clipping I think what you have in 521 is not too bad. Did you try reducing ADD blue and red in the green setting? Equally? Does the 75% luma track better? It should. If not try backing off even more until it looks better just to find a threshold where it starts to screw up. Granted the more you reduce them your secondaries will drift but just looking at the 75% luma does it look better? You have me wondering how my numbers look. It's been a long time since I checked.

Also you are concerned with the red and blue luma levels. That is the trade off you have to live with them low. Although turning gamut on and off doesn't seem to do what the numbers say. Goes to show you most video is below 75%. At least the Vision gamut takes the edge off the funny colors when it does track above 75%.

Edit: You know your cyan and yellow are too high with SUBG set to 15. It would be better to start with Lawguys numbers and reduce ADDR and ADDB in your green setting instead. Reduce them to the point that all three lines converge on D6500. Your primary luma will be around 25-30 low and your secondaries will be around -5 to -10 or so.

Ok I'll try that as soon as I can, thx ;)

Yesterday I took a few screenshots for my french forum in order to show the difference between gamut correction on and off.
The movie is "Nacho Libre". I took this example because this movie is very saturated, and very "yellow", so the gamut correction can easily be seen (although the green and red flashy colors are a lot easier to see live).

No gamut correction:
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5761/nacho1nogamuthv5.png

Gamut correction:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6345/nacho1gamutwr0.png


No gamut correction:
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/478/nacho2gamutcu4.png

Gamut correction:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/403/nacho2nogamutzf9.png

It would be very helpful to post what type of color meter you are using for your measurements. It would be easier for someone to duplicate your results if they knew the equipment you used.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

support@lumagen.com

Sure, I'm using this solution, both colorimeter and software:
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/

Maybe it's the movie or the camera but it still doesn't look right. Better but still not right. Must be the camera. Red is more saturated on the RS10 compared to the RS1. Blue and green look about the same as on the RS1 in your measurements. Have you adjusted grey scale yet?

Must be my screen at work or the lighting. The pictures look better on my new home monitor.

Ronomy, the screenshots are not here to show the colorimetry, but only the difference between the 2.
There are far too many factors involved (camera, pc screen, etc) to be able to tell whether the colorimetry is correct or not, but we can easily see the difference...

Gray scale was close to perfect before I played with the gamut, I did not have time to check it again after...

Ronomy, the screenshots are not here to show the colorimetry, but only the difference between the 2.
There are far too many factors involved (camera, pc screen, etc) to be able to tell whether the colorimetry is correct or not, but we can easily see the difference...

Gray scale was close to perfect before I played with the gamut, I did not have time to check it again after...

I know that but comparing your shots to what I see in the show us your screen shot thread. The colors didn't look right. I know some movies have weird colors too. Although the weird skin tones I have seen on that thread with RS10's. Red seems much more saturated on the RS10. Well at least red will diminish over time.

The big issue to me is not red or green that much, but yellow (which is red and green ok :) ).

Bango, did you get any further with this? I've just bought a secondhand HDQ and updated it to the latest firmware. I should get my HD350 by the weekend too, so I'm keen to try to adjust the greyscale and then tame the colours as far as the HDQ will allow.

I did perform a greyscale calibration on my AE3000 and found that the mode I prefered (Cinema 1) gave a slightly oversaturated gamut and yet I didn't find the colours objectionable, so getting somewhere like that would be good enough for me. Having said that I was in the fortunate postion of having a home demo so I've already seen the HD350 'as is' and I didn't find it as bad as the pre production one I saw last September at the UK launch. In fact if that one had looked as good as the one I saw on Saturday I never would have bought my AE3000 and that would have saved me £sss, but that's another story. :D

EDIT: Someone on the UK forums reckoned they saw banding when using the HDQ gamut controls. Is this likely a general issue, equipment specific or something resolved with later firmware updates? I believe he had a Sony VWL50, but now has a JVC HD750, not sure which PJ he saw the banding with.

Kevin, I did not have time to play more with the gamut setting sorry.
The latest settings given in this thread provide an image I really like though ;-)

Kevin, I did not have time to play more with the gamut setting sorry.
The latest settings given in this thread provide an image I really like though ;-)

Thanks for that BangoO. I'll try them once I've done the greyscale. I didn't mind the colours anyway, even compared to a HD750 that had various CMS settings (taken from this forum). I'm picky about black levels, but not so much about colour it seems....so that makes the HD350 a good choice for me. :)

Any comments on the banding issue I read about?

It is cetainly possible to create banding if you miss calibrate the gamma controls. Changing the gamma curve requires advanced knowlege and equipment.

We have many customers who have used their Lumagen video processor to learn how to do their own video calibrations. Even the pros sometimes need to repeat a calibration in order to get it right. If you see banding on a display, after changing the gamma curve, you need to continue to work on the calibration.

We always suggest that you hire an ISF certified calibrator to calibrate your system.

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com

Thanks for your comments Randy, I haven't made any adjustments to the gamma yet as I'm waiting for my new HD350's lamp to settle down before I run a full greyscale calibration. I only have an Eye-one sensor, plus HFCR, but I got pleasing results with my TV and my previous AE3000. I will see how well I get on, then deceide if I feel the cost of an ISF calibration is worth it.

I will try putting in Lawguy's settings just to see how it looks and maybe just run a quick check, but I'm too busy enjoying the new PJ at the moment, plus trying to figure a few other things with the HDQ (like shrink mode not working for me when feeding it with 1080/24p for example).

The LumagenHDQ is a great product to use for learning about video calibration. We have a configuration utility that you can download from our website. Use the configuration utility to save a configuration file to a PC. We suggest saving the configuration at significant milestones during a calibration. Make sure that you "Save" the new settings before you save the configuration file to your PC.
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities

The HDQ doesn't automatically save setting changes. You are free to experiment with different settings and calibrations. If you want to keep the new settings, do a "Save". If you want to restore the last saved configuration, cycle power.

We have a manual that covers the HDQ service menu and how to do an advanced calibration. Send an email to support@lumagen.com and request a copy of the "Lumagen Dealer Training Manual".

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com

Thanks very much for your reply Randy. I think the HDQ is a great product and the support (which was what made me choose a Lumagen in the first place) has proven to be first rate.

I'm at a bit of a setup 'milestone' already, so I will back up these settings to my PC this weekend (having recently bought a null modem cable to update the firmware, I suppose this will be needed along with the software).

I watched some SD sources last night with 'Lawguy's gamut settings and found the image very pleasing, it has taken the edge off the sunburnt faces I saw on certain scenes. I didn't notice any banding in over 4 hours of viewing, though I'm not sure how obvious it would be, perhaps it is more subtle than I was expecting.

I've only done the basic input and output calibration setup so far, but this is the best I've seen DVDs look ever on my projector(s). :) I've now got the HDQ doing the interlacing and upscaling from 576i as I initially had a problem getting 576i through my Denon 2808 for some reason. I've even got my 'shrink' setup sorted using all four memories so I can go from (downscaled) 16:9 to (1:1) 2.35:1 at the push of a button, thanks to the various replies and PMs I received to help me out with that setup.

I'll have to read up on the 'dealer training manual' in advance of my HD350 getting some more hours on it's lamp, before I do the greyscale and more detailed gamut calibration. :)

Anyone have any CMS settings they can share for a Pioneer Elite FPJ1 (RS2)? I know each of the different JVC's have different color points. Just looking for a starting point.

Thanks,
Dan

You will never find command settings for this panel....out of the box is huge

What would be the correct procedure to setup the colour now that this gamut control is available? All the information I find relates to using the service mode to block the unwanted colour when making the adjustments to R,G, B colour and hue, using (in my case) DVE Title 12 chapter 6 colour bars.

I tried this with Lawguy's settings put into my gamut control and (obviously) got different results with gamut on or off. Is the idea to leave the colour controls at default if using the gamut, or is this meant to be used in tandem to give the best result? If in tandum, should I setup the colours first, then add the gamut or visa versa? I haven't got round to doing a full greyscale calibration with my I1, but I just wanted to try doing the more basic settings first.

I don't have a copy of AVIA to set up the Y/C delay, but I found that using the same colour bar pattern as above seemed to work quite well. For those who wonder what this control does it is obvious using this pattern; with colours bleeding across from the adjacent boxes of certain colours. Not sure if it matter, but this is all using a PAL DVD with the HDQ upscaling and deinterlacing from 576i to 1080/50p as I haven't tried this adjustment using my BD version of DVE yet.

Both Color and Hue should be set at 128 when playing with the Gamut setting.

Both Color and Hue should be set at 128 when playing with the Gamut setting.

If you are using PC input levels actually 112 is the default setting for color only. Try setting your Bluray player to PC levels and the HDP/Q to PC inputs and you'll see that 112 is the correct settings in your measurements. I've tested this with my PC, XA2 HDDVD player and my Bluray player. Standard video levels and 128 is default.

Ron

Thanks BangoO and Ron, I've been reading this thread right back from the first page (upto about page 6 so far.....got a bit heated at a few points didn't it :eek:). I think I need to go back a few steps and redo this setup, not to mention using my I1 to actually measure and see where I am as I'm not sure just putting in Lawguy's settings (for his HD1) will work for my HD350, unless that was what you meant you were successfully using BangoO?

I found this 'procedure' which I need to re read and inwardly digest before having another try:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13901405#post13901405

I'm using video levels throughout, except on my HD350 which has HDMI set to 'expand' which I think was a known problem anyway. As I set the HD350 controls using this setting and the HDQ internal patterns, then this should be the correct starting point. I ended up with the HD350's brightness at -2 with this procedure and contrast is at +3 at the moment, though it may have to come down to get 100 IRE to D65 when I do the greyscale.

It's certainly a challenge learning and implimenting all this information, but I'd rather understand it than just punch in someone else's figures (though I may start there to see how well they measure). :)

EDIT: Read the whole thread now, so at least I'm up to speed as to what everyone has tried with the HD1/RS1. I've reset my colours to default and just put LG's gamut settings in. As I didn't want to fire up the PJ tonight, I just used my TV (which has a similar green push to a HD1 and the picture looks pretty good, so much that I'm watching all my TV tonight using my DVD recorder as a source rather than the internal TV tuner!). I'm also intriged by the custom gamma curves mentioned that give approx 2.2 at 10 IRE, then rise to 2.4 at higher IREs.

Kevin just remember to set the output settings on the HDP/Q to PC levels with the projector set to enhanced levels.

What works best for me is to adjust the brightness/black level on the projector so that you get the darkest total black level just before the projector control starts to raise black level. At least on my RS1 my default brightness at zero clips some black but if i use +1 it raises my black level. If I go back to zero the blacks are blacker but clipped and I then use the Lumagen brightness control to increase the black level from the source. I get much better contrast ratio this way and shadow detail is perfect. Even using 2.4 gamma.

Ron

Thanks Ron. I'd found the enhanced 'bug' with my HD350 in that HDMI 'Auto' mode gave the wrong result, setting to 'Enhanced' seemed to work best. I had set the HDQ to output at Video level, so I'll have to go back over and readjust for best contrast using PC level instead. I think I found I had to put the HD350 brightness to -2 to get the HDQ internal contrast test patterns looking correct. Any higher and the black level became raised.

I think I may end up aiming for a custom gamma that starts at 2.2 and rises towrds 2.4 at higher IREs. I found setting the JVC's own custom gamma to 2.5 (actual is 2.4 IIRC) then the shadow detail was lost, though brighter scenes looked better. With 2.3 (actual = 2.2) the shadow detail was back, but the brighter scenes looked slightly washed out. However, I haven't even done a greyscale yet on the HD350, so other changes/tweaks need to follow this D65 setup first. I don't know if it's worth bothering at only 20 or so hours?

I've been playing with my spare memory 'D' which is for use with my TV (it's easier to play around with the HDQ settings for the TV and do a calibration check at the end of the evening, when the TV is nicely warmed up). Once I really get to grips with the various HDQ settings I'll be able to go through setting up the HD350 with greater knowledge and maybe save a few lamp hours. Also I may as well get the benefit of the HDQ for regular TV viewing (I just have to use an external DVD recorder as a source, but that's no hardship as I'm usually watching recordings anyway :)).

Great idea learning the HDQ using your TV. I logged at least a couple hundred hours on my bulb learning it.

Thanks Ron. I'd found the enhanced 'bug' with my HD350 in that HDMI 'Auto' mode gave the wrong result, setting to 'Enhanced' seemed to work best. I had set the HDQ to output at Video level, so I'll have to go back over and readjust for best contrast using PC level instead. I think I found I had to put the HD350 brightness to -2 to get the HDQ internal contrast test patterns looking correct. Any higher and the black level became raised.

I think I may end up aiming for a custom gamma that starts at 2.2 and rises towrds 2.4 at higher IREs. I found setting the JVC's own custom gamma to 2.5 (actual is 2.4 IIRC) then the shadow detail was lost, though brighter scenes looked better. With 2.3 (actual = 2.2) the shadow detail was back, but the brighter scenes looked slightly washed out. However, I haven't even done a greyscale yet on the HD350, so other changes/tweaks need to follow this D65 setup first. I don't know if it's worth bothering at only 20 or so hours?
Kelvin, if your sources output video levels, then you should use video levels on your HDQ as well.
An easy way to find out is to use a Blu-ray (or whatever source you use) with a pattern that displays whiter than white (>235) and blacker than black (<16).
The only way to see it is to have your whole video chain set up with video levels.
Other than that, I agree with the way Ronomy told you to set up your black level.
Now, the gamma... I don't have a dark room, so I use a 2.2 gamma with a little adjustement between 2 and 5 IREs (using the HDQ) to improve black level. Never touch 0 and 1 IRE levels otherwise you black will become gray.

Bango,

Blacker than black and whiter than white can still be seen with the projector and VP output set to PC levels as long as the input levels are all set to video. I just get better results using PC levels between the Lumagen VP and projector.

Ron

I understand the settings of PC and video, but am I correct in thinking that mixing the two settings within a chain could cause banding or some other issue? I have everything set to video levels, except my HD350 which is set to 'expand', but it's brightness and contrast have been set correctly using the HDQ's internal patterns. I'm wondering if I should set my HD350 to 'Normal' (aka 'video') and readjust it's internal settings to match. :confused:

I really need to do a base greyscale and gamut run, but I don't get much chance in the week and the lighter nights don't help on that score either. :)

Kelvin, if you set your source and your Lumagen to Video levels, then you should use the setting on the HD350 which allows you to see blacker than black and whiter than white (tell me if you don't know how).
I use the Auto setting as it works as expected on my HD350.

Thanks BangoO, I changed the HD350 to 'expand' as there seemed to be a problem with the auto mode (a known issue on other JVC PJs) and the picture looked better in this mode, though of course it was setup to match from the HDQ.

I think I should change to using the 'Normal' setting (or whatever it's called). As it should only be a matter of adjusting the HD350 brightness and contrast controls to match the HDQ's internal patterns then it will be quick enough to do. I was always able to see BTB and WTW on my AE3000, though I didn't use the HDQ with it much as I sold the AE3000 just after I got the HDQ.

The Lumagen is a DVI interface with 8bit RGB output only over DVI so some displays don't switch properly with the Lumagen. I had problems early on between the Lumagen and my XA2 but that was finally fixed by Toshiba. Now I can use video input levels with the XA2.

The internal test screens only work correctly with the output set to PC levels in the processor although you could get it to work playing around with the brightness and contrast. I could never get the picture to look correct that way using the Lumagen test patterns. If you use an external player with test patterns then you can use all video levels in and out just don't use the Lumagen pluge and peak white level adjustments. They will be way off. You wouldn't want to use the grey scale windows in the lumagen either when set to Video output levels. At least I could never get it to work with my RS1.

Ron

Kelvin,

I don't see any difference with banding if the HDQ is set to video outputs levels. I find I get the best results using video input levels and PC output levels with my RS1. You will still see blacker than black and whiter than white.

The only time I see banding is on SAT stations sometime but I see it all the TV's in my house so its in the broadcast. I mostly see it on some comercials.

Ron

Thanks Ron, I'll be having a play later on hopefully so I'll be able to check/reset my levels. I hadn't intended to use the internal greyscale patterns as I'd heard they may not be reliable. I'll use the AVS709 disc and my DVE DVD to do the actual calibration when I get round to it.

I'm still trying to get my head around the gamut feature in the HDQ, but I intend to try going through the procedure I found on page 6 tonight. I'll be using my TV first as the greyscale is already pretty good from my previous calibration I did on it over Christmas, so that should be the correct starting point for adjusting the gamut.

I ran through the 11 point greyscale and used the HDQ to correct my poor gamma response of my Sony 40W2000 LCD TV (as pratice for my HD350 ;)). I managed to get the delta E at less than 2 and for the first time ever I managed to get the gamma reading 2.2 all the way from 10 to 90 IRE. Previously, using just the TV's own controls (and the service menu) I could only get the gamma to 2.2 for the first few points upto 30 IRE, after that it tailed off to 1.8. I just adjusted the 'luma' setting at each point (a bit of trial and error) and then made sure that any further greyscale adjustments put the 'luma' reading back to where it worked for my 2.2 gamma. It took less than an hour getting the HDQ to produce these results.

I'm using video levels thoughout my chain and yet I could adjust my TV relative to the HDQ's internal patterns and also using the input brightness controls to get the correct settings to start from.

I only need to try the gamut correction for my TV (which is high in green, not unlike a HD1/RS1 PJ). Once these settings are complete I think I'll be up for trying the HD350 (after a couple more films nights to put a few more hours on the lamp).

Thanks to Randy for the Dealer training manual PDF as requested. :) I'll be reading that carefully to make sure I've sussed out each control and get the best out of it.

I'd thought my purchase was a bad call the first few days I had it, but as someone else said on here, it's like a rite of passage going through the pain of setting this thing up. Once you're there though it's worth it and only a button push (or maybe a programmed macro on your remote) for the optimum picture. :cool:

Kelvin, FYI I use Auto on my HD350, which is the same as Enhanced, which are the only ones allowing me to see the BTB and WTW when my whole video chain is set to video levels.
So Enhanced is definitely the way to go when using video levels.

Bango enhanced is supposed to be PC levels not video levels.

I know Ron, but it's the only way for me to see BTB and WTW...
They are clipped if I use Normal instead of Enhanced.

I know Ron, but it's the only way for me to see BTB and WTW...
They are clipped if I use Normal instead of Enhanced.

That's weird! With my HDQ I only cut off BTB and WTW if I set the input range to PC levels and the player is set to pc output levels. My players all pass BTB and WTW. As long as I am set to video input on the HDQ I can see BTB and WTW with either PC or video levels into my RS1u.

What would you set it to, if my processor doesn't pass BTB and WTW? My Onkyo 886 processor, which I need in the chain before the HDP, for audio and switching, doesn't pass the PC levels, but my HTPC does? Should I just set the input and output up as Video? Right now, my Pioneer (RS2) is set to auto.

Thanks,
Dan

What would you set it to, if my processor doesn't pass BTB and WTW? My Onkyo 886 processor, which I need in the chain before the HDP, for audio and switching, doesn't pass the PC levels, but my HTPC does? Should I just set the input and output up as Video? Right now, my Pioneer (RS2) is set to auto.

Thanks,
Dan

You could set one of your memories up for PC input levels just for your PC!

I just purchased one of these used and was wondering how user friendly it is. I do have the option of having it professionally calibrated but might like to play around with it myself. Going through many of the posts, it seems like Lawguys numbers are touted as being very good. I have the same projector, the RS1, so this might be a good starting point. For someone that has never had one of these and doesn't have calibration equipment, is it easy to use?

I just purchased one of these used and was wondering how user friendly it is. I do have the option of having it professionally calibrated but might like to play around with it myself. Going through many of the posts, it seems like Lawguys numbers are touted as being very good. I have the same projector, the RS1, so this might be a good starting point. For someone that has never had one of these and doesn't have calibration equipment, is it easy to use?

I think if you use Lawguys gamut settings you will be in good shape. Grey scale and gamma you will need a color meter and PC. You can not use someone elses settings. It takes a bit of time to get used to the controls but you should really spend the time and figure it out. It's well worth it.

Ron

But I do need the color meter?

But I do need the color meter?

"[To adjust] Grey scale and gamma you will need a color meter and [software on your] PC"

To adjust input and output resolution, position, size, scaling, level etc. etc. you don't need a colorimeter, spectroradiometer or light meter.

It's also helpful to have a meter to adjust white level.

We have a "Lumagen Dealer Training Manual" that covers the use of the HDP/HDQ service menu and advanced calibration. If you would like a copy, send a request to support@lumagen.com

I ran a very quick greyscale adjustment on my HD350 using it's internal controls (having setup the inputs and outputs on the HDQ first). I quickly dialed in a decent response, as I know it will drift with the new lamp so I didn't spend too long over it. Then I put in Lawguy's gamut settings and measured the primaries and secondaries, see "LG response". As the Cyan seemed further off than the others and Magenta was below delta E 10 I tried to even out the delta E results, which is my "Adjusted response".

I've not got many hours on the lamp yet (<50) so this was just a quick try, but I've be interested in any comments regarding whether LG's or my settings measure better. In truth I found it hard to see much difference when switching between them. :o I could clearly see a difference turning the gamut on or off, so I'm not completely blind. :)

I did take an initial reponse, but I realised the HDQ input colour and hue controls were set at 143 and 133 respectively from some previous tweaking, so I haven't got a 'base' measurement. I'll redo one next time I have the PJ all set up.

For reference:

Lawguys settings:
R: SR 55, AG 17, AB 17
G: AR 60, SG 27, AB 65
B: AR 30, AG 27, SB 41

Adjusted settings:
R: SR 55, AG 17, AB 17
G: AR 65, SG 30, AB 65
B: AR 30, AG 30, SB 44

I may need to check these as my TV doesn't display 24p input, so I can't 'see' memory 'C' (where I applied the settings and I'm not sure if the 1080/50p output is set the same).

Randy,

"If you see banding on a display, after changing the gamma curve, you need to continue to work on the calibration."

Could you elaborate on this?

Is there more than way to achieve a desired gamma?

Randy,

"If you see banding on a display, after changing the gamma curve, you need to continue to work on the calibration."

Could you elaborate on this?

Is there more than way to achieve a desired gamma?

+1 on this. My HD350 (set to a custom gamma of 2.3) measured 2.1 with HFCR. I'd like to adjust this upwards, but perhaps I'd be better off using the HD350's internal gamma adjustment and then use the HDQ to tweak the 11 point greyscale, leaving the luma settings at default?

So, because the Vision is DVI, is most everyone putting it between the Pre-Pro and th projector? And, if that is the case, you would be using just one input, right? So, then you would only have 4 saveable pre-sets. That is all I have right now, but what about the future. All my sources are HDMI.

I only had a DVD player, HD DVD player, Blue Ray player and cable box I wanted to use with the HDP so it had plenty of options for me. I ran those through my receiver into the HDP. The Xbox got a straight connection to the projector via HDMI and optical audio to the receiver. This configuration is all I could envision needing with the unit for me. You could always hook up a regular DVD player or the cable box to the HDP/Q's other DVI input if you were running short.

I'm using my Denon amp to input and switch two HDMIs from my 576i DVD/SD TV source and the second for my 1080/60i BluRay source. My HTPC goes directly to the second input on the HDQ as the sound is sent to the Denon via coax. As each input has 4 memories, which have effectively 4 sub memories for 480 & 576/720p/1080i/Other(1080/24p) then it gives a pretty flexible result.

My DVD settings have a different contrast and brightness setting to my BluRay player, but the HDQ deals with this by resolution. Otherwise my DVDs would suffer black crush or BluRays would have raised black levels. If your amp has 4 HDMI inputs and 1 output, then you could still match the four HDQ memories to suit the four sources. If it has 6 HDMI inputs, then so long as the extra two are 720p or 480/576 then you could double up on two of the HDQ memories, if you follow. Plenty of room for future upgrades IMHO. I've even 'wasted' one of my memories by setting it up to use the 'shrink' mode to give me a CIH setup when my PJ is zoomed to fill a 2.35:1 screen.

"If you see banding on a display, after changing the gamma curve, you need to continue to work on the calibration."

Could you elaborate on this?

It is easy to create banding on your display if you make an abrupt or too rapid change in the gamma curve.


Is there more than way to achieve a desired gamma?

1. Many displays have a gamma setting.
2. Radiance gamma factor. Press "Menu, Output, Configs, [configs], Color Mgmt, Gamma Factor".
3. Radiance grayscale. Press "Menu, Output, Configs, [configs], Color Mgmt, Gray/Gamma".

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com

I'll be joining the ranks of those trying to improve their RS1 with a Vision vp. I've been wary of doing so because of its imperfect CMS capability and the feeling that merely reducing color saturation - which I have read pulls in xy to some degree - was good enough. Also, I've heard about banding with this vp mentioned by darinp when he used it with his RS1 or RS2. Despite this, my curiosity got the best of me. It seems to be a pretty popular vp on the resale market if it doesn't work out.

A major goal is to have this work out well enough to make the wait more bearable for the arrival of a LED/laser light-sourced RS20-like (or better, especially regarding CMS and even CR) pj.

A major goal is to have this work out well enough to make the wait more bearable for the arrival of a LED/laser light-sourced RS20-like (or better, especially regarding CMS and even CR) pj.

I think it's achieved this for me and hopefully I'll be happy with this setup for long enough for flying cars to be available too. :D It doesn't measure perfectly, but when I'm watching a film I can't tell if a colour is out by a delta of 3, 10 or 20, so long as the overall picture looks good without glowing greens, then that's good enough for me.

I have a question. My setup: Satellite (VIP 722), 2 HDdvd players, Blu-Ray into Onkyo 885 Pre-Pro (Pass-Through) into Lumagen HDQ. When trying to watch the Satellite, the menu is scaled correctly to 16:9 but all the channels have grey bars on the sides. I have the all HD package. I double checked on the Dish, the ratio is 16:9. I also tried switching from 1080i to 720P, no difference. Tried resetting the Dish, no difference.
It is not compressing the picture horizontally, it is just putting grey bars by chopping the picture in the middle.
The Lumagen is set to 1920 x 1080 60hz. It scales everything else perfectly. I did have to change the edid to edid+ to get the HDMI handshake correct if this has any bearing on the situation. I did a search and didn't find any problems like this.

It is easy to create banding on your display if you make an abrupt or too rapid change in the gamma curve.

Is the Vision 8 or 10 bit processing? I see the Radiance is 10 bit, but I am having trouble finding the "bitness" of the Vision. If a video processor is 8 bit, would that not contribute to a potential banding problem, where a 10 bit solution (like Radiance) would likely not have an issue?

I have a question. My setup: Satellite (VIP 722), 2 HDdvd players, Blu-Ray into Onkyo 885 Pre-Pro (Pass-Through) into Lumagen HDQ. When trying to watch the Satellite, the menu is scaled correctly to 16:9 but all the channels have grey bars on the sides. I have the all HD package. I double checked on the Dish, the ratio is 16:9. I also tried switching from 1080i to 720P, no difference. Tried resetting the Dish, no difference.
It is not compressing the picture horizontally, it is just putting grey bars by chopping the picture in the middle.
The Lumagen is set to 1920 x 1080 60hz. It scales everything else perfectly. I did have to change the edid to edid+ to get the HDMI handshake correct if this has any bearing on the situation. I did a search and didn't find any problems like this.

Hi kkpro,

I've a few suggestions, but non really guarenteed to solve your issue I'm afraid, but might be worth a try:

Have you got the HDQ set to 'pass' mode for scaling (can't remember the exact menu off hand) so that no scaling will happen for 1080 inputs (when using your 1080 output mode)? If it is set to 'normal' then the aspect buttons across the top area of the remote will be working, so you may have inadvertently pressed the 4:3 button (not so likely having reread your 'not compressing' comment above though :o)? Another possibility is that the mask mode is set and is cropping the sides of your image, though this wouldn't explain why your menu displays full width.

You need to be aware that there are sub memories on the HDQ so that if your menu is output at 480i for example and 'real' TV changes to 1080i then the HDQ may apply different settings even on the same memory/input. This means you need to check the input and output settings while you are seeing this 'pillarboxed' image.

These VPs can be a challenge to suss out, but believe me they are worth the trouble. :)

"Is the Vision 8 or 10 bit processing? I see the Radiance is 10 bit"

As I recall the Vision has some processing at 8 bit and some at 10 bit. The Radiance is up to 12bit processing in some areas.

Shawn

Hi kkpro,

I've a few suggestions, but non really guarenteed to solve your issue I'm afraid, but might be worth a try:

Have you got the HDQ set to 'pass' mode for scaling (can't remember the exact menu off hand) so that no scaling will happen for 1080 inputs (when using your 1080 output mode)? If it is set to 'normal' then the aspect buttons across the top area of the remote will be working, so you may have inadvertently pressed the 4:3 button (not so likely having reread your 'not compressing' comment above though :o)? Another possibility is that the mask mode is set and is cropping the sides of your image, though this wouldn't explain why your menu displays full width.

You need to be aware that there are sub memories on the HDQ so that if your menu is output at 480i for example and 'real' TV changes to 1080i then the HDQ may apply different settings even on the same memory/input. This means you need to check the input and output settings while you are seeing this 'pillarboxed' image.

These VPs can be a challenge to suss out, but believe me they are worth the trouble. :)


Thanks for the suggestions, will try them. I feel like a real bone head, at the bottom of the Satellite remote there is a format button. I must have accidentally hit it. The grey bars disappeared. I don't even deserve to have this equipment.

That stupidity aside, I did notice in the grey scale patterns some pinkish colors in some levels of grey. I also noticed in the contrast pattern, one of the white bands is a very light shade of yellow. The guy that calibrated it said that is no big deal, but it wasn't there before. It doesn't seem to affect the picture as far as I can see. I am no videophile either so I may not be seeing the effect.

You could have your calibrator contact us. We are available to answer any questions you have about calibrating your system using the HDQ.

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com
503-574-2211

Thanks for the suggestions, will try them. I feel like a real bone head, at the bottom of the Satellite remote there is a format button. I must have accidentally hit it. The grey bars disappeared. I don't even deserve to have this equipment.

I have so many remotes on the go at times that I can perfectly understand how you can press the wrong button....at least you got it sorted. :)

That stupidity aside, I did notice in the grey scale patterns some pinkish colors in some levels of grey. I also noticed in the contrast pattern, one of the white bands is a very light shade of yellow. The guy that calibrated it said that is no big deal, but it wasn't there before. It doesn't seem to affect the picture as far as I can see. I am no videophile either so I may not be seeing the effect.

Can you put up a test pattern using your source, perhaps using the (free to download) AVS709 disc if you have a BluRay player that can play AVCHD formats, or a copy of AVIA or DVE? I would image your calibrator used the whole chain to set up the system and I understand that the internal test patterns may not always show correctly. What you appear to be seeing is a shift in the greyscale at various IRE levels. If you still see this when using your source player and a test disc then I would suggest that the calibration isn't flattening the greyscale as it should. However, there is always the possiblity that you may have changed or cleared the calibrator's settings on your HDQ, so tread carefully when discussing this matter with him. ;)

I will do that. I don't know how I would have erased his settings though. I didn't do a save. I definetly like the scaling that the Lumagen does but I am not convinced the colors are dialed in yet. We were watching Nights in Rodanthe on Blu-Ray last night and one of the actors had blue eyes that almost looked creepy they were standing out so much. I also noticed on Kung Fu Panda, the reds and blues seemed over blown.
Also, how much different is setting the output for 24P? Should I set the output of the Blu_ray and HD DVD to 60 or 24?

I was able to get rid of the yellow banding in the contrast test pattern by bumping up the contrast 2 points. The shades of grey pattern still shows pink colorization in some of the bars though. I'm not sure what that affects, the picture looks very good.
Those with the Lumagen and the RS1, what is your projector setting for color?

I was able to get rid of the yellow banding in the contrast test pattern by bumping up the contrast 2 points. The shades of grey pattern still shows pink colorization in some of the bars though. I'm not sure what that affects, the picture looks very good.
Those with the Lumagen and the RS1, what is your projector setting for color?

Not sure why increasing the contrast would solve your banding issue, but in changing that setting you are moving away from the calibrated setting you paid for. The pink colourization means that at those IRE levels your greyscale has too much red. As the HDQ can adjust the greyscale at each 10 IRE interval (or whatever interval move each of the 11 points to), then there is no reason why the greyscale shouldn't look even after a calibration. It either means that the calibrator didn't adjust it correctly and/or his sensor was inaccurate or the settings have been changed/deleted/overwritten.

The effect of this error would be to make black and white moives have random pink tinges depending on the brightness levels and in colour content those brightness levels will make the colours wrong (ie more red than they should be for example). This may not be overally noticable depending on how far off it is, but it's not what you paid for. :(

There is a post further back in this thread that gives settings for an RS1/HD1 using the HDQ's gamut correction: When using these settings all the colour controls should be set to default (128 IIRC) and only the gamut settings changed:

Lawguy's settings:
R: SR 55, AG 17, AB 17
G: AR 60, SG 27, AB 65
B: AR 30, AG 27, SB 41

Hope that helps. :)

I was able to get rid of the yellow banding in the contrast test pattern by bumping up the contrast 2 points. The shades of grey pattern still shows pink colorization in some of the bars though. I'm not sure what that affects, the picture looks very good.
Those with the Lumagen and the RS1, what is your projector setting for color?


The HDQ only adjusts 11 points of grey. The grey ramp may not fall exactly on the 10 IRE intervals it was calibrated too using window patterns and there is a slight shift in color temp because of it. It's noticeable because your eye is focused on all the neutral grey steps and the one that is off slightly just happens to show up more because of it. With regular video you will never notice it. Also the display must be calibrated using a test disc not the HDQ internal patterns. You will see differences between the the HDQ patterns and patterns on a DVD or Bluray. Do not compare the two test patterns. Some displays can also sometime be off more somewhere between the 11 IRE steps. In that case you may get better results if you measure with 5 IRE steps and select one of these instead to calibrate on. Run a 21 step grey scale sweep and see what it looks like. You'll never get it perfect. Some where you will be off slightly. 11 points is good and much better than 2 but still not enough for perfection. Also you will get better results and minimize banding if you start by setting the offsets on the RS1 to get color temp as close as you can get before calibrating with the HDQ. One other thing I noticed on my RS1 is the bulb must be powered on for at least a couple hours for all the colors to stabilize. I have more red when the bulb is cool (actually less blue and green in my case until it warms up) and if I cal even after the projector has been on for an hour by the time 2 hours rolls around its way off. My color temp looks high after 3 hours. I didn't notice this when it was new. The bulb has almost 1000 hours on it and it does this now. It didn't do it at 300 hours. So I settle with a slightly warm picture when cold and good calibration after a couple hours. Since I found this happening with my bulb I have tried using high lamp mode for several hours and it seemed to help. Actually after running on high for several hours I find low bulb mode to have gained some of its lumen output back. So much so that I didn't bother ordering a new bulb yet. Lumens are still high enough for me. Keep this in mind when calibrating. Let the projector be turned on for a few hours to make sure it ready for a calibration. At least use high bulb output for a while to make sure it's putting out all the color spectrum it can. The color spectrum varies a lot on these bulbs as they age. This is why its an advantage to learn how to calibrate it yourself. Every few hundred hours and its worth running a new grey scale cal.

Ron

Thanks for the info. The calibrator is talking with Sencore (SP?) and is going over the results to make sure everything is okay. I am definetly liking the picture better with the HDQ though.

I was able to get rid of the yellow banding in the contrast test pattern by bumping up the contrast 2 points. The shades of grey pattern still shows pink colorization in some of the bars though. I'm not sure what that affects, the picture looks very good.
Those with the Lumagen and the RS1, what is your projector setting for color?
If you increase the contrast control and the grayscale shows pink on some bars that is a sign of clipping. Turn the contrast back down. If the pink goes away that confirms you are clipping. Find the real cause of the yellow banding instead of masking it by over driving the contrast control.

Thanks for the info. The calibrator is talking with Sencore (SP?) and is going over the results to make sure everything is okay. I am definetly liking the picture better with the HDQ though.

kkpro,

The HDQ can be set to drive one color more so than the others using the 100 IRE settings. One color may be clipping causing you to see yellow at 100 IRE. When you increase the contrast you just clip all the colors and it looks neutral. Chances are 100 IRE is clipping in one color after the cal. Probably blue is clipping if you see yellow. Red and green would be higher in this case which would give you the secondary color yellow. The contrast on the HDQ needs to be lowered and 100 IRE at least needs to be recalibrated in this case.

Ron

The HDQ output and the RS1 input should both be set to PC levels to give you more headroom to adjust levels and color gamut.

The HDQ output and the RS1 input should both be set to PC levels to give you more headroom to adjust levels and color gamut.

Exactly! I use video input levels to the HDQ and PC output level to my RS1. My PC is set to PC input levels though.

I believe the HDQ is outputting PC levels, but am unsure of the RS-1. Will check out this evening. Maybe someday I will understand this all.

I believe the HDQ is outputting PC levels, but am unsure of the RS-1. Will check out this evening. Maybe someday I will understand this all.
If the output of the HDQ and input of the RS1 were different it would be pretty obvious... either gray blacks or lost shadow detail depending which way. It's easy to switch the RS1 via the remote when viewing. That will clear up any doubt.

Color saturation setting on the HDP/HDQ will be different if you change the level on the input side. 128 color is default for video levels and 112 is default for PC input levels to the HDQ. If I use 128 for PC input levels I get color clipping from about 75% saturation on up to 100% saturation.

If the output of the HDQ and input of the RS1 were different it would be pretty obvious... either gray blacks or lost shadow detail depending which way. It's easy to switch the RS1 via the remote when viewing. That will clear up any doubt.

I was toggling back and forth. The Lumgen was indeed outputting PC, the
RS-1 was set for standard. What is the best configuration and why? That is part of my problem, I am making changes but don't really know why?
However, I will say that Lumagen is most helpful with their products.

I was toggling back and forth. The Lumgen was indeed outputting PC, the
RS-1 was set for standard. What is the best configuration and why? That is part of my problem, I am making changes but don't really know why?
However, I will say that Lumagen is most helpful with their products.
I really don't know which is best, it's just important that they match. I would theorise that PC levels (enhanced) are best because they have more bit-depth... they haven't lopped off 16 bits top and bottom. But I really don't know if that makes a difference in real life.

In my case the Lumagen puts out whatever it gets in. My Blu-ray player was set to PC so I set my HD-DVD player to PC and everything works great.

So, on my Panasonic, the output is standard or enhanced black level. With PC, should I be at enhanced then?

So, on my Panasonic, the output is standard or enhanced black level. With PC, should I be at enhanced then?
That is correct, as long as the pj is set to enhanced and the Lumagen is passing that through. But now that you've seen the difference when toggling, it will be clear if it's working right or not.

DVD and bluray are standard so I stick with standard input levels on the HDQ and sources and use PC output levels into my RS1. I use PC levels into my HDQ with my PC only. My SAT receiver will only output standard levels which would make it hard to use an HDQ with one PC input level and have an AV receiver do the switching. I guess you could use one of the memories on the HDQ and set standard video input level for the SAT receiver. I don't know if you can select output levels with cable TV receivers.

Ron

I was toggling back and forth. The Lumgen was indeed outputting PC, the
RS-1 was set for standard. What is the best configuration and why? That is part of my problem, I am making changes but don't really know why?
However, I will say that Lumagen is most helpful with their products.

I am surprised the guy who calibrated your setup set the VP to PC output levels and set the projector to standard video input levels. It should have been set to enhanced on the projector before he even ran the calibration.

I am surprised the guy who calibrated your setup set the VP to PC output levels and set the projector to standard video input levels. It should have been set to enhanced on the projector before he even ran the calibration.

It was their first time ever with a Lumagen. Sencore sent them a test HDQ but it was still a learning curve for them. I don't hold it against them, they are being very cooperative.
How much does the wrong settings affect calibration? Or should I say, what does it affect?

It was their first time ever with a Lumagen. Sencore sent them a test HDQ but it was still a learning curve for them. I don't hold it against them, they are being very cooperative.
How much does the wrong settings affect calibration? Or should I say, what does it affect?
If they did a gamma curve, I would think a whole lot. I would think gray scale and color may be off a little depending on how linear the response of the projector is. But Ronomy knows best, I think.

Edit: I just read what I wrote... you think? :)

If they did a gamma curve, I would think a whole lot. I would think gray scale and color may be off a little depending on how linear the response of the projector is. But Ronomy knows best, I think.

Edit: I just read what I wrote... you think? :)

Setting one of these up is a big learning curve and I actually ran into the same issue the first time I played with it. I knew something was way off right away though. Your calibrator will need to recalibrate the grey scale for sure which means gamma too. They probably set the brightness and contrast way off from the defaults on the VP to make it measure correctly but doing this is probably causing some added banding. If they used the brightness on your projector to increase the black level then I'm sure your black levels don't look very good either. They probably used the VP brightness though but still it needs to be fixed and recalibrated.

You can switch between enhanced and standard at both ends without much change in the calibration but when the levels are not matched to begin with then it needs to be recalibrated.

Thanks so much for the help. I really like the calibrators but it seems I may be doing more work trying to resolve the issues than they are. I should be paying the fee to this forum, it really is worth it.

Might have problem solved. The Lumagen was set for PC levels and the equipment used to calibrate was set for video levels hence the discrepancy. The calibrators will take another shot.

I really don't know which is best, it's just important that they match. I would theorise that PC levels (enhanced) are best because they have more bit-depth... they haven't lopped off 16 bits top and bottom. But I really don't know if that makes a difference in real life.

Video vs PC does not increase or decrease the number of bits/bit depth. Video uses values 16-235 to encode the signal, while PC uses the full range. PC sounds better because of its greater range, but that's misleading; it cannot transmit blacker than black and whiter than white information (<16 and >235). Furthermore, all video sources are encoded at video levels, including DVD, HD DVD, and Bluray. Telling your device to ouput PC levels for these sources introduces an extra conversion, never a good thing.

In my case the Lumagen puts out whatever it gets in. My Blu-ray player was set to PC so I set my HD-DVD player to PC and everything works great.

See above. You should set them to output video. The only case you want your Lumagen to take in PC levels is when actually using a PC.

That being all said - as you said above, as long as the device output and input setting on the vp match, you should be fine, and real world consequences should be minimal. But if you have a vp, you're probably looking to extract those last few % of performance. Use video levels :).

Video vs PC does not increase or decrease the number of bits/bit depth. Video uses values 16-235 to encode the signal, while PC uses the full range. PC sounds better because of its greater range, but that's misleading; it cannot transmit blacker than black and whiter than white information (<16 and >235). Furthermore, all video sources are encoded at video levels, including DVD, HD DVD, and Bluray. Telling your device to ouput PC levels for these sources introduces an extra conversion, never a good thing.


This is good to know. I theorised that the greater bit depth would give the Lumagen more room for its work... especially with the gamma curve... and so possibly less banding. But as you say, extra conversion is never a good thing and the theoretical bit depth advantage it probably just that... theoretical.

Dave from what I heard the VP processes in PC levels so output set to PC levels gives you the best picture. In fact the RS1 looks better near black using PC levels. I get better contrast ratio using PC levels and I don't get any crush. As long as you use Video input levels to the VP you will still be able to see Blacker than black. I agree using video levels for all sources except PC but between the VP and projector I found PC levels work the best with the RS1.

Dave from what I heard the VP processes in PC levels so output set to PC levels gives you the best picture.

You heard wrong. And even if it was true (it's not), your conclusion is erroneous. You will get the best picture by outputting a signal that will lead to the least possible amount of processing in your display. It could be PC RGB (doubtful), more often than not it'll be YCbCr 4:2:2.

In fact the RS1 looks better near black using PC levels. I get better contrast ratio using PC levels and I don't get any crush.

I doubt that very much. No projector magically acquires better black levels or a higher contrast ratio because you give it PC instead of video, or vice versa.

As long as you use Video input levels to the VP you will still be able to see Blacker than black. I agree using video levels for all sources except PC but between the VP and projector I found PC levels work the best with the RS1.

You're not supposed to see blacker than black after calibration, and I can guarantee you that you're not seeing it before calibration either if you're outputting PC levels. The conversion from video to PC basically expands 16-235 into 0-254, and doing so discards btb and wtw info. That is precisely why you don't want to use PC levels.

Anyhow, if you really want to do it this way, the RS1 can be set to receive PC levels - just set HDMI to 'enhanced', and you'll be fine. Mostly: you're introducing a conversion, which sort of defeats the purpose of using a VP in the first place. The best signal to input into the RS1 is YCbCr 4:2:2. I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed by a JVC rep on these boards.

This is good to know. I theorised that the greater bit depth would give the Lumagen more room for its work... especially with the gamma curve... and so possibly less banding. But as you say, extra conversion is never a good thing and the theoretical bit depth advantage it probably just that... theoretical.

Again: PC levels don't give you a greater bit depth. Do the math; video levels can take on 220 different values. One single additional bit would double the amount of values available. But PC uses 255 values. Not even close.

And that's discarding the fact that video values below 16 and above 235 are in fact used for btb and wtw information, which is an integral part of the video data.

Look, I don't want to sound too dramatic; using PC levels somewhere in your chain is certainly not going to ruin your picture, especially after basic calibration. But as I said above; if you're using a VP, it's probably safe to assume you're after the best possible picture. Might as well do things right, especially if it's as simple as setting input and output signals correctly.

Might as well do things right, especially if it's as simple as setting input and output signals correctly.
I agree. I'll do that. So it sounds like I won't have to re-do my gamma curve?

I agree. I'll do that. So it sounds like I won't have to re-do my gamma curve?

If you did it using PC levels, you might. But if you are changing the signal output by the vp and making sure the display's aware of it, maybe not. I'm pretty sure the curve won't be dramatically affected but you might want to touch it up.

You heard wrong. And even if it was true (it's not), your conclusion is erroneous. You will get the best picture by outputting a signal that will lead to the least possible amount of processing in your display. It could be PC RGB (doubtful), more often than not it'll be YCbCr 4:2:2.



I doubt that very much. No projector magically acquires better black levels or a higher contrast ratio because you give it PC instead of video, or vice versa.



You're not supposed to see blacker than black after calibration, and I can guarantee you that you're not seeing it before calibration either if you're outputting PC levels. The conversion from video to PC basically expands 16-235 into 0-254, and doing so discards btb and wtw info. That is precisely why you don't want to use PC levels.

Anyhow, if you really want to do it this way, the RS1 can be set to receive PC levels - just set HDMI to 'enhanced', and you'll be fine. Mostly: you're introducing a conversion, which sort of defeats the purpose of using a VP in the first place. The best signal to input into the RS1 is YCbCr 4:2:2. I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed by a JVC rep on these boards.

First of all you have no experience with the HDQ or at least my RS1. My RS1 needs to have its brightness up one or two notches from default to not clip black levels when set to video input levels and that forces the panels to glow a little thus less contrast ratio. I can use the default setting in the projector for brightness using PC levels and the panels are noticably darker and measurably darker too. Also the HDQ outputs only RGB which you didn't know obviously. The internal test patterns in the HDQ are factory set to PC levels thus if set to video output levels the patterns are clipped. The video processing in the RS1 requires 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 to be converted to RGB as with the HDQ as well. Read the RS1 thread and you will see confirmed by JVC that RGB is what you should send the RS1. That is a fact so keeping the output from the HDQ set to RGB is the best option with the RS1. Plus the HDQ only outputs RGB using the DVI outputs like I said above.

Also all I said was you can see blacker than black using video input levels on the HDQ and PC output levels on the HDQ to the projector. Of course I can't see them after my black level is set correctly. You act like I don't know what I am doing. You are just not familiar with the HDQ.

Erkq's problem was they set the HDQ to PC levels and the projector to video levels and then calibrated. It needs to be recalibrated with matching levels at each end of each cable connection. BD to HDQ and HDQ to projector. You are correct in that case but what I found using these two devices is true at least in my setup. I'm just trying to help Erkq out with his setup to get the best results. I tried every which way already.

Ron

Dave! What happens with the HDQ is when I input video levels the below black from the player is not lost because it is still set to video levels. So when I use the HDQ's brightness and raise it above black I can see below black even with the HDQ set to PC output levels. Since the RS1 works best with RGB sending it PC level RGB is the best option with this projector or at least RGB is the correct format for less processing. In my case blacks look better using PC levels out of the HDQ into the projector. Maybe the newer JVC's are different. I am not familiar with the newer models.

Ron

I wonder where Randy from Lumagen is? I surprised he hasn't chimed in with a definitive answer on this.

I wonder where Randy from Lumagen is? I surprised he hasn't chimed in with a definitive answer on this.


Well I know the HDQ only outputs RGB from the DVI ports! The rest is my observation calibrating my setup. The settings I used yield the best picture and contrast using PC levels into the RS1u.

One other note with my setup is I am forced to use RGB out of my HDDVD player and my Bluray player. Connecting both to a DVI connection forces them to output RGB. My BD player has forced color space but it still outputs RGB. So much for forced color space!

I didn't know about the HDQ only outputting RGB. Also, I went back to try and find the recommended input signal type for the RS1 but couldn't find the specific post in the RS1 thread. In fact I found conflicting information; from what I gather YCbCr 4:2:2 used to be recommended because there was a color decoding bug when inputting RGB, but this has been fixed in a subsequent hardware update. So RGB might actually be the way to go now. I guess I should investigate that some more, since I have an RS1 myself.

But that doesn't invalidate what I said earlier. You want to output a signal that will be the best match for your display. Not the format that your VP uses internally.

I can see below black even with the HDQ set to PC output levels.
That would be mathematically, and thus physically, impossible. From the HDQ manual:

"To accommodate the various video displays, the output type is programmable. It can be set to analog YPRPB, RGBHV, RGBS or RGsB; with programmable sync type and polarities. YPRPB can be selected with either the SD or HD color formats. DVI-D video can use either the “PC” range (full range black to white), or “video range” (reduced range black to white to allow for blacker-thanblack and whiter-than-white levels)."

My emphasis. PC RGB clips btb/wtw signals. So whatever you're seeing, it's not blacker than black.

It's blacker than black! Trust me I've been a projector and home theater guy for 15 years. I know the patterns. Like I said I am using video levels into the HDQ and using the HDQ controls to set my black levels. If I increase the projector brightness then you are correct I wouldnt see below black because its cut off by the HDQ but I am increasing the brightness before that conversion to PC levels.

My RS1 just looks better near black using PC levels into it. If it was better the other way I would be using it.

Whatever you say then. If you're happy with the picture, that's all that matters in the end.

Whatever you say then. If you're happy with the picture, that's all that matters in the end.

You would have to see it! It took me a while to figure it out. Do you have the Radiance?

Ron

Yes.

Would love to try the other color spaces but I can't with the HDQ. Unless I try component! There's a thought. Forget 24p though with component.

See Gordons post here about RGB only output on the Vision series VP's: http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=9028&rid=0&S=05578fc8a8f08b7affccddd4f57410cb

Is the Vision 8 or 10 bit processing? I see the Radiance is 10 bit, but I am having trouble finding the "bitness" of the Vision. If a video processor is 8 bit, would that not contribute to a potential banding problem, where a 10 bit solution (like Radiance) would likely not have an issue?The HDQ is 8 bit and you might see banding. I did on occasion, though my image is 116" wide from 14' away and I therefore see bad stuff more easily.

Scaling pipeline in Vision HDQ/HDP and HDP Pro is 10 bit. The Sil de-interlacing chip is 8bit precision.
Original Vision series is 8bit scaling as is Vision DVI

The HDQ is 8 bit and you might see banding. I did on occasion, though my image is 116" wide from 14' away and I therefore see bad stuff more easily.

I see banding in some shows on SAT on channels using low bit rates and on some poorly mastered commercials. I see the same on the other two displays I have in the house so its not the HDQ. I never see any banding using my BD player and color ramps look clean. My connection path is: source-HDQ-RS1u. I had very noticable banding on DirecTV local channels via SAT last year but DirecTV has improved it. I can't tell the difference between the MPEG4 SAT feed and the local broadcast any more. My screen is 104 inches wide and I sit 16 feet away. About a 30 degree field of view but I have seating that is closer and the image is very clean. The HDQ does a fine job cleaning up the picture from DirecTV. One of these VP's is a must for an RS1u especially because you can't adjust the RS1u. I would love to get a Radiance but I just do not see the cost benefit with an RS1u. Even the gamut settings do a good job at eliminating the over saturated yellows and greens. Red is reduced as well and skin tones look way more natural.

Ron

Finally got things pretty much under control. However, I am getting a line of garbage on the right side of my screen. I went in to the Lumagen and increased the size 2 clicks. This takes away the line but loses the 1 for 1 pixel mapping on the horizontal and has slight stretching of the picture. I looked in the faq of Lumagen because I thought I saw it there but I didn't. Is there a better way to get rid of the line? I can always overscan into the border of the frame also.

Finally got things pretty much under control. However, I am getting a line of garbage on the right side of my screen. I went in to the Lumagen and increased the size 2 clicks. This takes away the line but loses the 1 for 1 pixel mapping on the horizontal and has slight stretching of the picture. I looked in the faq of Lumagen because I thought I saw it there but I didn't. Is there a better way to get rid of the line? I can always overscan into the border of the frame also.
I had this same line of garbage. It went away if I cycled the VP's power leaving the other components in the stream on. I haven't seen it again.

I will try that. Thanks

"I went in to the Lumagen and increased the size 2 clicks. This takes away the line but loses the 1 for 1 pixel mapping on the horizontal and has slight stretching of the picture."

What % stretch is two clicks?

If the power cycling doesn't work you could set up a custom AR that just gets rid of the garbage.

Now that I mention it, can the image be cropped asymmetrically?

Or use the MASK feature to cut off the portion that contains the garbage.

I will try those suggestions. The power cycling did not get rid of the line.

Is the line on the right originating between the source and the Lumagen or between the Lumagen and the projector?

It is never a good idea to change the size of the Lumagen output and lose 1 to 1 pixel mapping. Are you using scale or pass? Using TOPL and BOTR is always a better solution when possible.

Have the the pro calibrators come back yet to correct all of your issues?

The calibrators have come back. The issues have been fixed except the line. I don't remember the line being there before. I would assume that the line is from the Lumagen, the pre-pro is set to pass through. Would it have something to do with the PC/Video in/out? I agree about the 1for1 pixel mapping, that is why I am trying to find an alternative to the stretching. Would the masking in the RS-1 also take care of the problem? I am not sure that would work with the signal though.

The calibrators have come back. The issues have been fixed except the line. I don't remember the line being there before. I would assume that the line is from the Lumagen, the pre-pro is set to pass through. Would it have something to do with the PC/Video in/out? I agree about the 1for1 pixel mapping, that is why I am trying to find an alternative to the stretching. Would the masking in the RS-1 also take care of the problem? I am not sure that would work with the signal though.

Do you only see the line on some TV stations? I sometime see a green line on the edge of TV stations. Use the HDQ masking to hide it. However if you see it all the time on every input it sounds like you do not have pixel maping setup for 1 for 1. It may still be off a little.

The line shows on all sources. I do have 1 for 1 mapping if I don't use the size function and leave the green line there. I will try the masking.
Thanks for all the help guys. This forum and Lumagen have been a big help with my problems.

The line shows on all sources. I do have 1 for 1 mapping if I don't use the size function and leave the green line there. I will try the masking.
Thanks for all the help guys. This forum and Lumagen have been a big help with my problems.

What did you use as a pattern to adjust mapping? When you switch between pass through and normal HDQ scaling does the grid pattern shift? If it does it isn't 1 for 1. I know of a line on the right hand side in my HDQ but when 1 for 1 is setup you shouldn't see it.

I've had a random stripe of noise on one side of my display, but that was from my SD source, so the TopL/BR control trimed it. I initially used the mask control in the HD350 (like the HD1 I believe) but I forgot I'd set this and when I zoomed back for a 16:9 film (I have a 2.35:1 screen) I couldn't figure why I had feint dark grey side bands each side of the active image (not got round to making up side masks yet :o). Instead I've set different masks for each memory according to use (I realised I was missing the second line of subtitles so had to create a mask to allow this. At least using the HDQ mask feature doesn't upset pixel mapping.

Whisper it quietly, but I use the mask to crop the sides of 2.40:1 films so they fill the height of my 2.35:1 screen when appropriately zoomed. ;) It's a useful feature, but it did my head in working out all the settings I'd applied to which memory/resolution/masking mode, so I spend a while this weekend typing all my settings down and it's a bit clearer now. In doing this I realised that each output memory seems to be able to have a different gamut setting, which is handy as my TV needs different setttings to my PJ. I also found that I had the 'CUE' setting 'ON' where it should have been 'OFF' (for HD sources) due to me making changes when watching SD sources on my TV.

It's a very flexible device and I'm now very glad I bought it (despite initial reservations if I'm honest). I've been rewatching some DVDs and even bought a couple of 'bargain bin' DVDs due to the highly watchable result from the HDQ's upscaling on my HD350. I think I'm still learning what it can do and how various settings interact. The golden rule seems to be to do a 'save,save' if you like it, or if it's a temporary fix (like a weird 1080/50i BluRay I watched recently) then just do a power cycle after the film. ;)

What did you use as a pattern to adjust mapping? When you switch between pass through and normal HDQ scaling does the grid pattern shift? If it does it isn't 1 for 1. I know of a line on the right hand side in my HDQ but when 1 for 1 is setup you shouldn't see it.

Using the pass through versus the scaling is where the line comes in. I tried switching to pass through and the line disappeared. I also noticed that the picture moves up slightly. The pass through fills the screen. The only way I notice 1 for 1 is using the test pattern. It looks consistently grey both vertically and horizontally.

Using the pass through versus the scaling is where the line comes in. I tried switching to pass through and the line disappeared. I also noticed that the picture moves up slightly. The pass through fills the screen. The only way I notice 1 for 1 is using the test pattern. It looks consistently grey both vertically and horizontally.

What disc are you using for mapping? I used Video Essentials HD DVD. I have not checked it since I got my Bluray player though. All my DVI inputs use the same settings. What are your settings by the way?

I was using the Lumagen's test patterns. The input is set to auto, the output is set to 1080P-60.
I am ony using one of the inputs of the Lumagen because I go from the sources to the Pre-pro to the Lumagen to the projector. I do this to preserve the audio codecs.

KK,
I have the same type setup you have. I have both of my sources (cable HD and HTPC) going into my 886, then the output for main hdmi out from the 886 (which goes to my projector) goes into input 1 of my HDP. I then take the HDP out to my Pioneer Elite FPJ1. I have the HDP set to accept the three various inputs from these two sources (480i, 1080i and 1080P/24 (pass)). But, I have the HDP set to output either 1080P/24 (pass) or 1080P/60 (480i and 1080i). This way I can let it pass the HTPC and scale and deinterlace the HD cable sources. This setup also allows me to make adjustments to all three of the input signals independently (color settings, mask, etc.). It was a pain to learn how to do it, but once I did, I would have kicked myself if I wouldn't have kept it. On top of that, doing a grayscale/gamma calibration is a breeze with it as well. Along with the HDP that I picked up, I also got a CalMAN and i1 D2 package for $300. It's been one of the best $1000 I have spent on HT equipment lately. These boards are filled with very knowledgeable people who are very willing to help you work out any issues you might have with the HDP/Q VP's. I had never messed with a VP before, so I had a lot of questions I asked a few forum members and they were very quick and gracious with spreading their knowledge.

Dan

I was using the Lumagen's test patterns. The input is set to auto, the output is set to 1080P-60.
I am ony using one of the inputs of the Lumagen because I go from the sources to the Pre-pro to the Lumagen to the projector. I do this to preserve the audio codecs.

That's your problem! You need to pass the test pattern using Video Essentials HD through your Pre-pro and set mapping. Your sources and or your Pre-pro is shifting the pixel map. Don't use the Lumagen patterns. You should also adjust color temp using your HD player and test disc not the Lumagen screens.

I may have confused you. The reason I was using the Lumagen test patterns was to confirm 1 to 1 mapping. The Lumagen was professionally calibrated using Sencore equipment and their patterns.
How would the sources and the Pre-Pro shift the pixel map? I definetly want to keep the same procession of video sources to decode the higher codecs.

I may have confused you. The reason I was using the Lumagen test patterns was to confirm 1 to 1 mapping. The Lumagen was professionally calibrated using Sencore equipment and their patterns.
How would the sources and the Pre-Pro shift the pixel map? I definetly want to keep the same procession of video sources to decode the higher codecs.

But you are only calibrated for the lumagen patterns for 1 to 1. My guess is your Pre Pro is shifting the mapping. You just need to shift it so that the image is centered again. What are your settings on the HDQ?

I will have to look. What settings would apply? I believe the position settings are at default if that is what you are referring to.

I will have to look. What settings would apply? I believe the position settings are at default if that is what you are referring to.

The TopL/BR settings for the DVI input you are using! The factory defaults are way off. I had the same problem with the line on the right hand side when I first got my HDQ. You must use video essentials or some other external source to get it set correctly.

So, I would want to adjust the bottom right setting, correct?

So, I would want to adjust the bottom right setting, correct?

Yes but you will probably need to adjust the top left setting too. Otherwise you'll stretch the image. Do you have Video Essentials?

Yes, I have the HD-DVD Version. Which test pattern do I use?

Yes, I have the HD-DVD Version. Which test pattern do I use?

The full field grid pattern used for checking display image geometry.

Thanks, will try playing around with it this evening. Appreciate all the help, wish I were more competent with this equipment.

Thanks, will try playing around with it this evening. Appreciate all the help, wish I were more competent with this equipment.

Playing around with it is the best way to learn. The menu system was new to me when I first got mine and very confusing until you get the hang of it. Now I like it. It doesn't cover the picture while you're adjusting the display.

Hey everyone that is using the HDQ/HDP VP with a JVC projector. I picked up a copy of the HD Benchmark Bluray from AVS and was running the motion adaptive deinterlacing tests and found that if you set the output on your VP to 1080i for your 1080i input resolutions you will have a much better picture. This will allow you to use the JVC deinterlacer which is much better than what is in the HDQ/HDP. Setting the VP to film mode deinterlacing for video and film sources both seems to yield the least amount of artifacts. As you know the HDQ/HDP still deinterlaces when set to 1080i output. You'll have the best of both the VP color and grey scale processing and the deinterlacing of 1080i using the JVC. Give it a try if you already haven't done this. I am very happy with the results. Wish I tried this sooner. The HD Benchmark Bluray disc is a really good disc for testing video displays and is a great tool to take with you when buying a new display. Highly recommended!

I use independent output mode so that 1080i out is only used for 1080i inputs. 720p is still set to 1080p out and I still use the SIL504 in my HDQ to deinterlace 480i and output 1080p since it has less artifacts than using 1080i out with 480i inputs.

Cheers,

Ron

Thanks Ron... I have the RS1 and HDP so I'll check out your recommendations tonight!

"As you know the HDQ/HDP still deinterlaces when set to 1080i output. "

I don't; how can it deinterlace and output 1080i?

"As you know the HDQ/HDP still deinterlaces when set to 1080i output. "

I don't; how can it deinterlace and output 1080i?

The HDQ/HDP will always deinterlace 1080i. Lumagen didn't design it to be able to pass through 1080i. So when it outputs 1080i they basically interlace the 1920x1080 frames and send odd and even lines or 1920x540 fields.

If you select film mode deinterlacing for HD sources in the setup it will be as close as you can get to a pass through mode.

This works great for the DVI inputs but don't use it for analog HD inputs. The picture falls appart with the analog inputs when set to 1080i out on the DVI outputs.

The results on the DVI inputs is remarkable! You gain full per pixel motion adaptive deinterlacing via the JVC's Gennum deinterlacer in the RS1u. The picture is way sharper and the artifacts that the HDQ/HDP output are gone. Verified with the HD Benchmark Bluray disc. Pans are smooth and retain much more sharpness than letting the HDQ/HDP deinterlace to 1080p.

When watching recorded movies on my DVR I have a memory setup for 1080p/24 output but for general video/flim mix sources I now use the 1080i output with film mode selected on the VP's deinterlacing.

To me this was the one big negative with the HDQ but now that I have this working I don't see a need for a Radiance. I've been happy with the gamut adjustments on the HDQ.

Ron

Very interesting, thanks Ron.

I have an HDP that I wasn't going to use until I implement my blasphemous everything-2.05:1 screen setup, but pans have been bothering me for some time now.

Very interesting, thanks Ron.

I have an HDP that I wasn't going to use until I implement my blasphemous everything-2.05:1 screen setup, but pans have been bothering me for some time now.

I think you will be very happy with the results! Don't forget to bypass scaling of 1080i/p sources. You can't use zoom but the picture is sharper. Only use the HDP scaling for less than 1080 sources. If you check the luma burst test patterns on the Benchmark Bluray you will see some loss of the very highest frequency but that attenuation is OK with 720p sources and the HDQ/HDP scaling is very clean.

Ron

As I use 1080/60i into the HDQ to reverse telecine to 1080/24p output then am I right that this technique will not work for me? The HD350 won't reverse telecine to 1080/24p if it's fed with 1080/60i or am I wrong, does it depend on a setting in the JVC's menu?

I saw this in the Dealer Training manual, but haven't had time to try it:

"Deint Enable MENU 0 9 5 1 Toggle deinterlace enable (not saved)"

Though this likely can't be combined with independent output modes.

As I use 1080/60i into the HDQ to reverse telecine to 1080/24p output then am I right that this technique will not work for me? The HD350 won't reverse telecine to 1080/24p if it's fed with 1080/60i or am I wrong, does it depend on a setting in the JVC's menu?

If you watch a movie or film sourced material then what you are doing is the correct way to use the HDQ. 1080i/60 fields or 1080p/24 frames input and movies/film will look great set to 1080p/24 output. I have a memory setup to take 1080i and output 1080p/24 but I also use another memory and have it setup for 1080i input that will output 1080i using the independent output mode on the HDQ. I use this for general channel surfing so that video material will be deinterlaced using the JVC deinterlacing. You can do the same with your HD350 and you should because it is way way better for video deinterlacing. I watched some HDNET shows on Venice Italy and it was all video based and it had nice smooth panning and very good resolution during those pans.

I hope you're not using 1080p/24 all the time with all material! You will still need to use 1080p/60 output for 720p and 480 sources. Once you get it all setup on all your memories you never have to think about it. The HDQ will switch to the output you want automatically.

It's amazing the picture quality difference with video based material. Night and day difference!

Ron

I saw this in the Dealer Training manual, but haven't had time to try it:

"Deint Enable MENU 0 9 5 1 Toggle deinterlace enable (not saved)"

Though this likely can't be combined with independent output modes.

I tried that setting but didn't notice any change. I am pretty sure Randy said it is still turned on for 1080i inputs. Plus you can't save it anyway. A power cycle will reset it to on every time. It will not turn off if you're set to 1080p out.

Also don't forget to copy your gamut settings manually to your new independent output mode. It doesn't copy with the copy command and you will also need to enable it too.

Ron

I hope you're not using 1080p/24 all the time with all material! You will still need to use 1080p/60 output for 720p and 480 sources. Once you get it all setup on all your memories you never have to think about it. The HDQ will switch to the output you want automatically.

It's amazing the picture quality difference with video based material. Night and day difference!

Ron

Thanks Ron, no I don't use 1080/24p all of the time, only most of the time. ;) I only have either 576/480i sources (DVD or very rarely SD TV) or 1080/60i from BluRay. If it isn't a 24p sourced BluRay (one I watched recently was 50i which surprised me) then I just use another memory I have setup for this. Because of my setup using the 'shrink' setting I couldn't get the auto select function work properly, so I just used all four of the HDQ's memories and use a Harmony remote to access them directly. There was even enough memory spaces to allow me to have one for 720p output to use in a second room on my older 32" 768p TV.

After receiving my HDQ just before going on vacation, I've finally had time to do the basic set up and try the gamut settings posted here by Ron and Lawguy. Although I do need to customize them, the difference in skin tone is phenomenal! So much more realistic than with Color at -12 on my RS-1. However, Green is still pushed out and there is no visible to the eye difference with the gamut settings on or off.

Maybe tonight I'll get time to unpack the i1 D2 and Calman package - my greyscale looks like it has a tinge of red, and so I can't wait to see what the HDQ is going to do to the picture quality in total.

(BTW, thanks for the tip on 1080i out. I set that up last night, and it works great)

Cheers,
David.

After receiving my HDQ just before going on vacation, I've finally had time to do the basic set up and try the gamut settings posted here by Ron and Lawguy. Although I do need to customize them, the difference in skin tone is phenomenal! So much more realistic than with Color at -12 on my RS-1. However, Green is still pushed out and there is no visible to the eye difference with the gamut settings on or off.

Maybe tonight I'll get time to unpack the i1 D2 and Calman package - my greyscale looks like it has a tinge of red, and so I can't wait to see what the HDQ is going to do to the picture quality in total.

(BTW, thanks for the tip on 1080i out. I set that up last night, and it works great)

Cheers,
David.

Hi David,

The reason why you don't always see a change is because in lower IRE's the saturation goes back up. I have never seen the lower IRE's use the full color range so it's not a big issue. The offending colors were always visible in bright scenes and that's where it has tamed enough so that greens look natural instead of florescent and yellows look yellow instead of gold. We all keep the saturation level a little higher than the standard because the more correction you use the more the secondaries are thrown out of whack. Leave the triangle a little bigger. Don't dial it in any more than it already is. Minor changes can really screw up your secondaries. If you bring in green more you will have to bring in red and blue as well or cyan and yellow will be way off.

Ron

I would appreciate opinions:

I have a Pioneer PRO-111FD wonderful display.

My feed from a standard digital Charter box for 1080i is just fine.

However, the 480i channel results on the PRO-111FD are poor.

I'm wondering if I would benefit from the Lumagen in line as the PRO-111FD internal scaler is not considered to be one of it's strong points.

Thanks for all opinions.

Hang in there Erkq!

All Lumagen video processors use Lumagen's proprietary "No-Ring" scaling. This scaling also includes mosquito noise reduction. So you get much better scaling along with mosquito noise reduction to help clean up the signal from your set top box. We have had many reports from our customers that the Lumagen processor gave them a much better picture from their cable or satellite TV.

Randy Freeman
support@lumagen.com

I get excellent result with local digital terrestrial and satellite sources and an HDP here in the UK.

The Lumagen with factory fitted SDI sources is better than any of the HDMI STBs I have tried.

I should be getting a VisionHDP here soon primarily to fix up colors on the RS2/FPJ1, but also to try out some poor man's CIH with mask/shrink features. I also want to maximize the scaling benefits of the HDP and had some questions about my setup:

PS3: I use this for blu-ray and DVDs. I assume I should turn off scaling in PS3 for DVDs. I think the PS3 will not do 480i over HDMI. Is the best I can do in this situation is output 480/60p, and assume the PS3 gets the film mode de-interlacing correct, and the the HDP will still scale well? Can I program the HDP to convert 480/60p to 1080p/24 for this input? Otherwise, I'll set 1080/24p input res to output 1080/24p ((for blu-ray films), and set 1080/60i input res to output 1080/60i (for blu-ray videos and PS3 menu). Anyone do anything different for PS3?

HR-22 (DirectTV): I am wondering if I should just send this to HDP via component. Of course I will set the HR-22 output mode to "native" to get the native resolution. The problem is that if I use HDMI->DVI, I think it will try to handshake HDCP every time there is a resolution change. If I stick to component, I don't think that will happen. Any significant degrade to using component connection here instead of DVI? We're talking satellite here :) Or, has anyone else used HDMI->DVI with "native" output mode on the HR-22, and not had delays in HDCP handshake when resolutions changes? For input->output resolutions, I assume this would be best: 480/60i->108060i, 720/60p->1080/60p, 1080/60i->1080/60i (let the RS2 handle the motion adaptive de-interlacing). I suppose 1080/60i input could sometimes be output 1080/24p if I know what I was watching was recorded in 24p originally.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Since you already have an HDMI cable for the PS3, I would try that cable first with the SAT out to see if there are handshake issues. If you don't have any issues, get another HDMI cable. If there are issues, invest in a new set of component cables. As for input/output settings, I would try to output any video based interlaced signal as 1080i/60 (e.g. NBC and CBS). I would output 720p/60 signals (e.g. ESPN or Fox) as 1080p/60. And, I would output anything that is film based as 1080p/24. I'm not sure what I would do with SD DVD signals out of the PS3 since it won't output 480i/60. I supppose you could try outputing 480p/60 from the PS3 and outputing 1080p/24 from the HDP. I would compare it to outputing 1080p/24 from the PS3 to see if you notice a difference. One thing, can the PS3 be set to output 1080i from SD DVD but 1080p/24 from BD? If so, that might help since the RS2 could de-interlace.

Why wouldn't you have the HDP do the video deinterlacing (i.e. output 1080p60)?

Thanks krholmberg for your suggestions.

FWIW, numbers of cable are not a problem. I have plently of extra HDMI and component cables. I guess I will have to try HDMI->DVI for DirecTV and see if there are delays in switching resolutions.

I assume when you say output 720p as 1080p, you mean output 1080p from the HDP, not the DirecTV DVR, right? The DVR should still always output its native format?

For SD-DVD on PS3, I would think the last thing to do would be to change the output resolution from 480. This is of course assuming the HDP does better SD scaling than the PS3 (doesn't it?) Virtually all of the SD DVDs I have will be film source, and PS3 claims to support film source de-interlacing, so I am hoping 480/60p output from PS3 will be the most un-molested data it can send.

See post 667

Thanks krholmberg for your suggestions.

FWIW, numbers of cable are not a problem. I have plently of extra HDMI and component cables. I guess I will have to try HDMI->DVI for DirecTV and see if there are delays in switching resolutions.

I assume when you say output 720p as 1080p, you mean output 1080p from the HDP, not the DirecTV DVR, right? The DVR should still always output its native format?

For SD-DVD on PS3, I would think the last thing to do would be to change the output resolution from 480. This is of course assuming the HDP does better SD scaling than the PS3 (doesn't it?) Virtually all of the SD DVDs I have will be film source, and PS3 claims to support film source de-interlacing, so I am hoping 480/60p output from PS3 will be the most un-molested data it can send.

I would try the various options on your own (various output resolutions from the PS3 and HDP) and see for yourself if any one of the options looks better to you. And yes, defintely have the DTv box output native resolution :D. I think it would be a good idea to compare 480p output from the PS3 vs 1080p/24. If possible, I would try to output 1080i from the PS3 with SD-DVD... then have the HDP also output 1080i as well as 1080p/24. See if you notice a difference between the HDP doing the deinterlacing vs. the RS2 and and difference between the HDP and PS3 doing the upscaling.

HR-22 (DirectTV): I am wondering if I should just send this to HDP via component. Of course I will set the HR-22 output mode to "native" to get the native resolution. The problem is that if I use HDMI->DVI, I think it will try to handshake HDCP every time there is a resolution change. If I stick to component, I don't think that will happen. Any significant degrade to using component connection here instead of DVI? We're talking satellite here :) Or, has anyone else used HDMI->DVI with "native" output mode on the HR-22, and not had delays in HDCP handshake when resolutions changes?

Component doesn't support 1080. If you use DVI in you will see the handshake delay on resolution changes -- I don't find it that annoying. As you say it's of lesser quality in any case. The greater problem is handshake in general. I have an HR21 that doesn't work at all reliably with my HDP. I'm in the midst of replacing it with an HR23. Both the HR23 and my HR22 will complete handshake. So far only my Apple TV, the HR21 and a Tosh HD-DVD player fail HDCP handshake with the HDP.

See post 667

If possible, I would try to output 1080i from the PS3 with SD-DVD... then have the HDP also output 1080i as well as 1080p/24. See if you notice a difference between the HDP doing the deinterlacing vs. the RS2 and and difference between the HDP and PS3 doing the upscaling.

I realize motion adaptive de-interlacing is probably better in the RS2 than the HDP, but virtually all of the DVDs I have do not need motion adaptive de-interlacing, as they are from film source, and 480i from the DVDs are really a 3:2 sequence of odd/even lines of original, progressive frames. The PS3 should be able to re-construct and send the fully progressive frames, albeit in a 3:2 cadence. Once that is done, there is no de-interlacing to be done by the HDP or RS2. Once scaled to 1080p, the HDP should then be able to convert 60p to 24p, which I am pretty sure the PS3 cannot do with SD-DVDs (definitely can do with blu-ray)

For anything that is a true interlaced video source, like some of the TV shows I watch, then I will try to send interlaced output from the HDP to the RS2.

Hmm, I wonder if this is this why the Radiance added the Gennum processing, to improve motion adaptive de-interlacing?

Component doesn't support 1080.

Can you clarify if you mean 1080p or 1080i? I am pretty sure my HR22 does 1080i. Right now I have the components being used by a plasma TV set at 1080i and the HDMI being used simultaneously (also at 1080i) to the projector. At the moment I have the output resolution fixed at 1080i (no changes to match source material).

I guess I'll have to see if the handshake bothers me. The DVR is already one of the slowest I have used, and adding a few more seconds may put me over the edge on this. I would really pay a premium to have an incredibly responsive DVR. Same goes for HDCP handshake. If I had my way, HDMI.org would work on nothing but lightning fast handshake before any of the other ridiculous features that they think we need.

Can you clarify if you mean 1080p or 1080i?

My bad, yes 1080i is good over component, 1080p is not supported.

I would really pay a premium to have an incredibly responsive DVR.

Be glad you don't have an HR21.

I have an HDP and wondered which bluray players work best with it?

I need decoding of all formats to 5/7.1 analogue, rs232 and of course a source direct that works well with the HDP, preferrably a player that will output 480I/576I/720P/1080I50/1080I60/1080P24 to the Lumagen depending on the source. Any ideas?

Be glad you don't have an HR21.

My HR20 is pretty quick. I never have problems with it and I can skip commercials and stop exactly where I want very quickly. I love it! I've never lost any recordings with mine.

OK, finally have a VisionHDP. I am really looking forward to better colors on my Pio FPJ1 and some masking/shrinking for CIH!

However, my first attempts at setting up the HDP are getting me a bit frustrated. I am using a PS3 as a blu-ray player. I would like to get 24p sent out of the PS3 (during blu-ray playback) to the HDP, then send 24p to the projector (projector supports 24p, all this worked great without the HDP). One problem I am running in to is that I think the PS3 will not send 24p unless 1080p is selected in the PS3 outputs. However, when I select 1080p in the PS3, the HDP goes nuts and can't hold a picture. I'm sure in the PS3 menus, it's probably trying to send 1080/60p at that moment. Can the VisionHDP not handle 1080/60p @ RGB:4/4/4? Unfortunately I don't think the PS3 will send 422 or 444 component over HDMI during the PS3 menus.

BTW, since I was not having any luck setting the 1080p output in the PS3, I tried setting the PS3 only to 480p/720p/1080i outputs, then setting the HDP ouput to 1080/24p and there was terrible judder during blu-ray playback. I'd really prefer the PS3 send 24p during blu-ray playback and 1080/60p (or even 1080i) for menus, etc. Can the HDP see these as 2 different inputs? So, they each can have their proper output refresh rates (24 & 60)?

One other question, whenever I have an input active on the HDP, is there a way I can query what the input resolution & refresh rate are? For example, on my projector, I can bring up a window that tells me it is receiving 1080/24p. I don't see anything like that on the HDP.

BTW, I am on the very latest software release.

Thanks for you help...

Played with this a little longer. I think the PS3 is sending 24p, even though I did not select 1080p as one of the outputs. However, I did select the blu-ray cinema mode, which I think is overriding the default output selection when necessary. So, on PS3 console it sends 1080/60i, and for blu-rays it sends 1080/24p. 1080i registers as the 1080i memory and the 1080/24p as the "other" memory, which allows me to link each to a different output setting, so I can automatically output 24p during blu-ray playback, but 60p for PS3 console.

I still did see some judder (actually really looks like the frame-rate is cut in half), but it only crops up right after an input change and lasts only 5-10 seconds.

OK, finally have a VisionHDP. I am really looking forward to better colors on my Pio FPJ1 and some masking/shrinking for CIH!

However, my first attempts at setting up the HDP are getting me a bit frustrated. I am using a PS3 as a blu-ray player. I would like to get 24p sent out of the PS3 (during blu-ray playback) to the HDP, then send 24p to the projector (projector supports 24p, all this worked great without the HDP). One problem I am running in to is that I think the PS3 will not send 24p unless 1080p is selected in the PS3 outputs. However, when I select 1080p in the PS3, the HDP goes nuts and can't hold a picture. I'm sure in the PS3 menus, it's probably trying to send 1080/60p at that moment. Can the VisionHDP not handle 1080/60p @ RGB:4/4/4? Unfortunately I don't think the PS3 will send 422 or 444 component over HDMI during the PS3 menus.

BTW, since I was not having any luck setting the 1080p output in the PS3, I tried setting the PS3 only to 480p/720p/1080i outputs, then setting the HDP ouput to 1080/24p and there was terrible judder during blu-ray playback. I'd really prefer the PS3 send 24p during blu-ray playback and 1080/60p (or even 1080i) for menus, etc. Can the HDP see these as 2 different inputs? So, they each can have their proper output refresh rates (24 & 60)?

One other question, whenever I have an input active on the HDP, is there a way I can query what the input resolution & refresh rate are? For example, on my projector, I can bring up a window that tells me it is receiving 1080/24p. I don't see anything like that on the HDP.

BTW, I am on the very latest software release.

Thanks for you help...

You really need to have a BD player that has a native output mode when using the HDP/HDQ. The HDP will not pass 1080p/60. It will pass 1080p/24.

A work around with the PS3 would be to set it for 1080i/60 output and then setup a memory in the HDP to be able to switch to 1080p/24 out. Too bad you can't force 1080p/24 out at all times with the PS3.

The problem you are seeing is when the disc is not 24p or you are in the PS3 menu it outputs 1080p/60. I don't think there is a work around. 1080p/24 output on the HDP will only work with 480i, 1080i and 1080p/24 into the HDP. I know 720p/60 in doesn't work with 1080p/24 output. I am not sure about 480p/60 in. I don't think I ever tried it.

I have a Pioneer 51FD with native mode out and its seem less. I use multiple output resolutions and depending on the input it will switch automatically to the output mode I want it to switch too.

One other note I have is you need to force film deinterlacing on the HDP for 1080p/24 output to work with 480i and 1080i input resolutions. As you know it will only work with film source BD's and DVD's and SAT/cable movies. It will not work with commercials if they are video based. Setup one of your memories to output 24p and set deinterlacing in that memory to film deinterlacing.

Ron

Played with this a little longer. I think the PS3 is sending 24p, even though I did not select 1080p as one of the outputs. However, I did select the blu-ray cinema mode, which I think is overriding the default output selection when necessary. So, on PS3 console it sends 1080/60i, and for blu-rays it sends 1080/24p. 1080i registers as the 1080i memory and the 1080/24p as the "other" memory, which allows me to link each to a different output setting, so I can automatically output 24p during blu-ray playback, but 60p for PS3 console.

I still did see some judder (actually really looks like the frame-rate is cut in half), but it only crops up right after an input change and lasts only 5-10 seconds.

Great! I didn't think you could do that with the PS3. Now just use forced film deinterlacing in one of your memories and you will eliminate that judder you some times see with film. The auto deinterlacing modes get tripped up easily on the HDx processors.

Now another trick is to setup 1080i inputs as 1080i output and enjoy using the gennum in your projector to deinterlace 1080i. Use forced film mode for all 1080i sources and the gennum chip in your projector will correct for either film or video. Video deinterlacing in the HDx is not that great. Film deinterlacing is very good though.

Ron

Great! I didn't think you could do that with the PS3. Now just use forced film deinterlacing in one of your memories and you will eliminate that judder you some times see with film. The auto deinterlacing modes get tripped up easily on the HDx processors.Ron

Honestly, I didn't think the PS3 would do this either, but the PS3 console and the blu-ray playback are definitely coming in as different input resolution memories.

Now another trick is to setup 1080i inputs as 1080i output and enjoy using the gennum in your projector to deinterlace 1080i. Use forced film mode for all 1080i sources and the gennum chip in your projector will correct for either film or video. Video deinterlacing in the HDx is not that great. Film deinterlacing is very good though.Ron

Yes, I am actually doing this on my DirecTV input! Hmm, I don't think I set forced film mode yet. I am not concerned about the PS3, as I don't think I have a single video source blu-ray.

I also use the HDP for poor-mans CIH. The projector is already zoomed to fit a 2.35:1 screen, with top/bottom of the image spilling over. When I want to watch 16:9 content, I use memB (on either PS3 or DirecTV input). MemB uses masking and shrinking to shrink down the image to fit within the 2.35:1 screen, but not all the way: I set it up to overscan the top/bottom by 5% (then use masking to block that out). That way I use a little more width on the 2.351 screen but don't lose too much info on the top/bottom. This is the one case where I never send 1080i out to the projector, even with DirectTV 1080i sources. Since the HDP is already scaling down, I really do need to rely on it's de-interlacing to scale down properly. Sending an interlaced format after that scaling is probably not a good idea. However, if I do not scale at all, then yes, I do send 1080i when the source is 1080i.

It's certainly been an education to set this thing up. It's a bit daunting at first. I finally had to get a spreadsheet going to keep track of every important value for every input, mem, and output field. Otherwise it's like going into a maze and getting lost.

Anyone notice fairly significant audio/video sync issues? I understand the HDP will need some extra time to de-interlace/scale, etc, but what I am seeing seems like at least 1/4 second or more delay for the video vs the audio. The delay is very obvious on blu-ray, less so on DirecTV. Right now I cannot add audio delay to my receiver, but I am shopping around for a new one. My concern is that the delay in the video processing may be more than the audio delay options available in the receivers out today. For example, the Pioneer SC-05 allows up to 6 "frames" of delay. I am wondering if that's even enough to compensate for lag the HDP is adding.

So, what have your experiences been? Has anyone here had to add audio delay, or is this something many don't notice?

Anyone notice fairly significant audio/video sync issues? I understand the HDP will need some extra time to de-interlace/scale, etc, but what I am seeing seems like at least 1/4 second or more delay for the video vs the audio. The delay is very obvious on blu-ray, less so on DirecTV. Right now I cannot add audio delay to my receiver, but I am shopping around for a new one. My concern is that the delay in the video processing may be more than the audio delay options available in the receivers out today. For example, the Pioneer SC-05 allows up to 6 "frames" of delay. I am wondering if that's even enough to compensate for lag the HDP is adding.

So, what have your experiences been? Has anyone here had to add audio delay, or is this something many don't notice?

Absolutely. I've added all my Onkyo 801 will do... 75ms. That seems to be fine. The drag is that I can't use my Pioneer 51's analog outs. I have to use the "lossy" toslink. I can't even use HDMI because my receiver doesn't "do" HDMI.

I have my Onkyo 886 processor set to 100ms and it takes care of the lip sync issue. I'm using HDMI over 1080P/24.

I am surprised everyone is using so much delay. I am using only 17.5ms on my Meridian processor to compensate although my sub distance is adding more to that number. Probably 2ms more. My HDQ is connected directly to my projector. I don't see any difference between the delay using my Pioneer 51fd bluray player or my HR20 DVR or any of my other sources.

Ron

I am only getting lip sync delay from my HTPC (BR player). My cable box has no delay.

I'd set my HDQ up to use 1080/60i and reverse telecine it to 1080/24p out to my JVC HD350. I noticed recently that some test patterns show some interferance as if the image wasn't quite pixel mapped, fine stripped patterns flickered and one test looked a little blury (even though the HDQ is set to 'PASS' so no scaling should be occuring at 1080).

Having spent an afternoon trying every setting option in my Sony BDP-S350 I've managed to get a setup where I can see the player's menu in 1080/60i which is then deinterlaced by the HDQ, but when the film starts it gives 1080/24p. As this player doesn't have source direct I was debating buying an Oppo 83, but now this won't be necessary and the test patterns I refered to are now perfectly clear, without flicker or blur. I don't honestly know if I'll notice this change when watching films rather than test patterns, but I've had a slight nagging doubt that the image isn't as sharp as I'd expect, so it may help (haven't been able to fire up the projector tonight, only the TV).

I'm not sure if this is due to whatever my BDP-S350 is doing to the native 1080/24p on the disc to output it as 1080/60i for the HDQ or whether it's something caused by the HDQ? I'd previously read that I would be losing nothing by setting up my HDQ in this way, but this seems to show otherwise.

I hope it helps someone else (if there is still anyone interested in the HDQ :)) as it's worth trying to find a way to feed the HDQ with 1080/24p.

I'd set my HDQ up to use 1080/60i and reverse telecine it to 1080/24p out to my JVC HD350. I noticed recently that some test patterns show some interferance as if the image wasn't quite pixel mapped, fine stripped patterns flickered and one test looked a little blury (even though the HDQ is set to 'PASS' so no scaling should be occuring at 1080).

Having spent an afternoon trying every setting option in my Sony BDP-S350 I've managed to get a setup where I can see the player's menu in 1080/60i which is then deinterlaced by the HDQ, but when the film starts it gives 1080/24p. As this player doesn't have source direct I was debating buying an Oppo 83, but now this won't be necessary and the test patterns I refered to are now perfectly clear, without flicker or blur. I don't honestly know if I'll notice this change when watching films rather than test patterns, but I've had a slight nagging doubt that the image isn't as sharp as I'd expect, so it may help (haven't been able to fire up the projector tonight, only the TV).

I'm not sure if this is due to whatever my BDP-S350 is doing to the native 1080/24p on the disc to output it as 1080/60i for the HDQ or whether it's something caused by the HDQ? I'd previously read that I would be losing nothing by setting up my HDQ in this way, but this seems to show otherwise.

I hope it helps someone else (if there is still anyone interested in the HDQ :)) as it's worth trying to find a way to feed the HDQ with 1080/24p.

I don't think I ever looked at test patterns with it setup this way but my player outputs 1080/24p so the HDQ just passes it through. It does look a tad sharper than letting the HDQ convert to 24p but 1080i itself out the player looks less sharp too. 24p out the player is direct off the disc so less processing.

I only use 1080i/60 bypass output on my HDQ and let the projector deinterlace it. Set the HDQ for film deinterlacing for all sources since 1080i will always pass through the HDQ deinterlacing. Film mode does the least amount of damage and the deinterlacing in my RS1 picks up film or video just fine setup this way. 1080i deinterlacing of video is much better in the projector. 1080i deinterlacing of film is very good in the HDQ. So my players are setup for 24p bypass and my SAT box is setup to pass 1080i/60 and scale 720p to 1080p. 480i is deinterlaced by my HDQ and scaled to 1080p via the HDQ. I get the best picture with this setup.

Ron

Thanks very much for that Ron. I shuffled the output settings last night to allow a spare one for use with 1080/60i BluRay 'video' like the 'Police' concert BD I just bought (to 1080/60p by the HDQ). I noticed that I was getting deinterlacing jaggies, but then realised that setting used Film deinterlacing, so I changed it to VIDPP and it looked clear.

I have the similar JVC HD350 so I might try your 1080/60i output suggestion as both my TVs and the PJ will all accept that as an input so it will free up some output memories. There's life in the old HDQ yet.:)

I haven't really watched any 'proper' film since making this setup change, but I don't really know if I could hand on heart say if I can 'see' the difference except on the test pattern(s) but I know it's there and gone when using 1080/24p, so I may as well use that setting now I've sussed out how to get it to work that way. The funny thing is I managed to get my shrink mode to work in 24p and I couldn't when I first got the HDQ hence my running in 1080/60i previously, I think it was my lack of understanding of the various settings like 'Norm' and 'Pass' scaling options.

Thanks very much for that Ron. I shuffled the output settings last night to allow a spare one for use with 1080/60i BluRay 'video' like the 'Police' concert BD I just bought (to 1080/60p by the HDQ). I noticed that I was getting deinterlacing jaggies, but then realised that setting used Film deinterlacing, so I changed it to VIDPP and it looked clear.

I have the similar JVC HD350 so I might try your 1080/60i output suggestion as both my TVs and the PJ will all accept that as an input so it will free up some output memories. There's life in the old HDQ yet.:)

I haven't really watched any 'proper' film since making this setup change, but I don't really know if I could hand on heart say if I can 'see' the difference except on the test pattern(s) but I know it's there and gone when using 1080/24p, so I may as well use that setting now I've sussed out how to get it to work that way. The funny thing is I managed to get my shrink mode to work in 24p and I couldn't when I first got the HDQ hence my running in 1080/60i previously, I think it was my lack of understanding of the various settings like 'Norm' and 'Pass' scaling options.

VIDPP does work better for 1080i video sources when your HDQ is set to 1080p output but it's even better to let the projector deinterlace 1080i. Setup your HDQ 1080i input resolution to output 1080i from the HDQ. Not 1080p! Then set deinterlacing to film on the HDQ. Your concert will be much cleaner and your projector should still auto sense if the source is film or video while passing 1080i. VIDPP might still look ok when set to 1080i bypass but I believe the best option is film mode for all sources (film and interlaced video).

Ron

I was busy trying to do a greyscale calibration last night so haven't had chance to change 'Out 7' to 1080/60i yet. I'm surprised that the JVC can deinterlace better than the HDQ, but I know it's a bit of a weak point with video deinterlacing on the HDQ.

I don't understand why you say set the mode to film though: For a 1080/60i output it won't be used (or does it deinterlace and re interlace inside the HDQ?).

Hopefully I'll get chance tonight to change the output and I'll check the concert disc (it looked pretty good the other night TBH).

I'm surprised that the JVC can deinterlace better than the HDQ, but I know it's a bit of a weak point with video deinterlacing on the HDQ.

I don't understand why you say set the mode to film though: For a 1080/60i output it won't be used (or does it deinterlace and re interlace inside the HDQ?).

Hopefully I'll get chance tonight to change the output and I'll check the concert disc (it looked pretty good the other night TBH).

The Gennum chip in my case on the RS1 does a better job than the HDQ by using per pixel motion adaptive deinterlacing with directional interpolation. The HDQ does not do directional interpolation like the Gennum chip. Don't forget that Lumagen is using a Gennum deinterlacing chip in the Radiance! The HDQ does however deinterlace and reinterlace when set to 1080i out. You can't bypass the deinterlacing. Using Film mode changes the frames less. Give it a try. I am not sure how the newer JVC's will handle this configuration since they don't use the gennum chip. I had problems using an analog 480i input from my DVR and 1080i out. The picture would break apart with motion on the screen. Seems to work just fine with digital inputs which is what I use 99.9% of the time.

Also try the Spears and Munsil DVD Benchmark Bluray using both output setups. 1080i out and 1080p out of the HDQ. You will see a big difference!

Ron

I tried the 1080/60i output change last night while viewing my new 'Police' BD. I changed the deinterlace setting to 'film' and it then made the image 'stutter' like it was dropping a frame, though I think I have 'Genlock' on so it might have effected things. I put deint back to VIDPP and watched for a while....I couldn't honestly say it was better or worse than using the HDQ to output 1080/60p direct to the HD350 though. I'll try again at some point with Genlock off as using 1080/60i output would simplify my settings a little especially as I couldn't see a difference, but it's only a few concert BDs that I have that use 1080/60i rather than 1080/24p so not that critical I suppose.

I watched Gran Torino on BD last night and thought the picture quality looked great, though I do want to recheck my gamma adjustments at some point.

I tried the 1080/60i output change last night while viewing my new 'Police' BD. I changed the deinterlace setting to 'film' and it then made the image 'stutter' like it was dropping a frame, though I think I have 'Genlock' on so it might have effected things. I put deint back to VIDPP and watched for a while....I couldn't honestly say it was better or worse than using the HDQ to output 1080/60p direct to the HD350 though. I'll try again at some point with Genlock off as using 1080/60i output would simplify my settings a little especially as I couldn't see a difference, but it's only a few concert BDs that I have that use 1080/60i rather than 1080/24p so not that critical I suppose.

I watched Gran Torino on BD last night and thought the picture quality looked great, though I do want to recheck my gamma adjustments at some point.

I only use the 1080i out for watching TV shows and concert DVD's. It is posible the new deinterlacing in the newer JVC's will not work with the 1080i out and Film mode. You should get the Benchmark test disc and test it. You'll see it for sure using the test disc.

A note on test patterns through the Vision series: Test patterns do not show up as having any "cadence." The Vision series deinterlacing for film is looking for 2:2 or 3:2 cadence and so test patterns look like video. Therefore, they will not be full vertical resolution.

I often mention that 1080i film looks the same as 1080p24 through the Vision series. This is true for film sources, but as implied above, not for test patterns. For test patterns 1080p24 will look better.

One other thing to keep in mind is that 1080p24 is not deinterlaced in the Vision and so the delay through the Vision series is less (with Genlock on about 50 mS less in the USA). Same picture, different delay. So, if you have audio lipsync issues, this could be a reason to use 1080p24 input to the Vision series. On the other hand if you use DD TrueHD, or DTS Master Audio, since these seem to take a lot of audio processing time - to where you need more video delay - then you may want to stick with 1080i through the Vision series.

A note on test patterns through the Vision series: Test patterns do not show up as having any "cadence." The Vision series deinterlacing for film is looking for 2:2 or 3:2 cadence and so test patterns look like video. Therefore, they will not be full vertical resolution.



Jim,

Is this true for 1080i in and 1080i out with film mode set watching interlaced video material? The Benchmark BD says otherwise if I remember correctly. I'll have another look when I get the chance. Video material is clearly better on my RS1 using 1080i passthru with forced film with video sources. Film sources look great with 1080p/24 output both with 1080i input and 1080p/24 passthru. I don't use genlock at all. It works with BD's but not with my DVR plus I would need to change my audio delay to compensate for having it turned on or off when i can't use it. Leaving it off my lipsync changes very little between Bluray using 24p passthru or my DVR using 1080i out and/or 1080p out.

Ron

Just to condense down the last few posts to make sure I understand:

1. I probably didn't need to change my setup from 1080/60i in to 1080/24p as the loss of resolution is only going to happen on static test patterns (not sure I could tell any difference with 'real' footage anyway :)). If there's no difference I may as well leave it the way it is now though......

2. The deinterlace mode for the HDQ is important even when passing 1080/60i input to 1080/60i output?

I experienced judder using 'film' setting with Genlock 'ON' but none when using the 'VIDPP' setting and genlock 'ON'. I didn't think about the genlock setting until the next day so haven't tried it 'Off' with 'film' deint.

Using 'Auto' deinterlacing in the HD350 menu and feeding the PJ with 1080/60i didn't seem to show any difference compared to using the HDQ to deinterlace and output at 1080/60p in the PJ. It could be a setting change or maybe something I'm not sensitive to.

The particular BluRay I was watching is very good in terms of picture quality: Blacks look very deep against the bright stage lighting, details like the microphone shields, various drum/cymbal parts and guitar strings all look very sharp even with my PJ's sharpness settings set at minimum (to prevent interferance patterns/artifacts). Maybe it blinds me to minor differences between the two configuration options. :)

Just to condense down the last few posts to make sure I understand:

1. I probably didn't need to change my setup from 1080/60i in to 1080/24p as the loss of resolution is only going to happen on static test patterns (not sure I could tell any difference with 'real' footage anyway :)). If there's no difference I may as well leave it the way it is now though......

2. The deinterlace mode for the HDQ is important even when passing 1080/60i input to 1080/60i output?

I experienced judder using 'film' setting with Genlock 'ON' but none when using the 'VIDPP' setting and genlock 'ON'. I didn't think about the genlock setting until the next day so haven't tried it 'Off' with 'film' deint.

Using 'Auto' deinterlacing in the HD350 menu and feeding the PJ with 1080/60i didn't seem to show any difference compared to using the HDQ to deinterlace and output at 1080/60p in the PJ. It could be a setting change or maybe something I'm not sensitive to.

The particular BluRay I was watching is very good in terms of picture quality: Blacks look very deep against the bright stage lighting, details like the microphone shields, various drum/cymbal parts and guitar strings all look very sharp even with my PJ's sharpness settings set at minimum (to prevent interferance patterns/artifacts). Maybe it blinds me to minor differences between the two configuration options. :)


All I can say is to get the Bluray Benchmark disc and look at the tall ship and boat videos shot with interlaced video cameras at 1080i. Try both setups and you'll see the difference. The diagonal edges will be a mess letting the HDQ deinterlace to 1080p/60 but when you let 1080i passthru it will be much cleaner. Again I'm talking about 1080i/60 source material not movies on film. Film is just fine using the HDQ to output 1080p 60 or 24 fps like you noted. I am talking about video not film! Watch some documentaries shot with video cameras and you'll see a difference or you should see a difference. Then again I don't know how good the deinterlacing is in the newer JVC's.

Ron

Jim,

Is this true for 1080i in and 1080i out with film mode set watching interlaced video material? ...

Good question. I have to say I have not tried force film with 1080i in and out. I will defer to your observation -- partly because I long ago switched to Radiance units at home :)

I agree that, verses the Vision series, newer deinteracers are better for video. So your setting 1080i in and out for video through a Vision series product is very reasonable.

Thanks for your comments and help. Now I've reconfigured my setup regarding 1080/24p I may as well stick to it and I only have a couple of 'video camera' shot BluRays so it is more accademic for me which is the best method regarding using 1080/60i or p into the JVC HD350, though if I come across the 'Benchmark' disc I may try it out purely on a technical level.

I will defer to your observation -- partly because I long ago switched to Radiance units at home :)

Now that's just rubbing it in....you have Radience units at work and at home. :D :cool:

Thanks for your comments and help. Now I've reconfigured my setup regarding 1080/24p I may as well stick to it and I only have a couple of 'video camera' shot BluRays so it is more accademic for me which is the best method regarding using 1080/60i or p into the JVC HD350, though if I come across the 'Benchmark' disc I may try it out purely on a technical level.



Now that's just rubbing it in....you have Radience units at work and at home. :D :cool:

I don't have many Blurays either. Just concerts which are shot in interlaced video and TV shows on SAT. For an RS1 the HDQ is great but for one of the newer projectors I would get a radiance I think.

I don't have many Blurays either. Just concerts which are shot in interlaced video and TV shows on SAT. For an RS1 the HDQ is great but for one of the newer projectors I would get a radiance I think.

I don't own many BluRays either, but I rent upto 15 per month using Blockbuster online. :) If I had the money for a Radiance, I'd be considering buying a HD950 instead of my HD350...or at least an ex demo HD750. Then I'm not sure what extra benefit having a Radiance would be over the HDQ for watching mostly 1080/24p BluRays, with the CMS in the HD750/950 being better than what I have now in the HDQ. :confused:

It's largely a moot point though as I'm really happy with the HDQ/HD350 combo and have other (non AV :() things that I should probably spend my money on. :) It's just useful to have these forums to find out how to get the best out of my setup. I find it refreshing that Lumagen continue to support the older models and provide help here and on other forums I visit.

I don't own many BluRays either, but I rent upto 15 per month using Blockbuster online. :) If I had the money for a Radiance, I'd be considering buying a HD950 instead of my HD350...or at least an ex demo HD750. Then I'm not sure what extra benefit having a Radiance would be over the HDQ for watching mostly 1080/24p BluRays, with the CMS in the HD750/950 being better than what I have now in the HDQ. :confused:

It's largely a moot point though as I'm really happy with the HDQ/HD350 combo and have other (non AV :() things that I should probably spend my money on. :) It's just useful to have these forums to find out how to get the best out of my setup. I find it refreshing that Lumagen continue to support the older models and provide help here and on other forums I visit.

I do agree with everything you say except I still think a VP has the benefit of adjusting each input where with the JVC 750/950 alone you may have some slight differences between sources that require adjusting. I have differences between my HDDVD player I use for DVD's and my Bluray player. My SAT uses slightly different brightness settings as well and I use all digital inputs. Same goes for my PC settings. I don't use a 2.35 screen so sometimes I like to zoom in about 15% using my HDQ with 2.35 movies. The HDQ scaling is so clean that I don't seem to lose any sharpness. I don't think you can zoom in 5% increments like you can with a Lumagen VP. I had zoom on my old ISCAN and the picture was too soft using zoom. Lumagen processors truly get the most out of your display. Even the HDQ still rocks and the colors are adjusted enough to get rid of the awful green and yellows that pop up from time to time without it on the non CMS JVC projectors.

Ron

Really OT and talking hypothetically anyway, but if I had upgraded to that ex display HD750 I saw I would have still kept the HDQ. I reckon that would be better VFM (and a little cheaper depending on what I got for my HD350) rather than buying a Radiance to use with my HD350.

I wouldn't get rid of my HDQ even if I only had one source to use with my PJ as I use the HDQ to upscale SD TV and DVD to my TV as well (noticably better picture quality than using the built in digital tuner).

I have been pretty happy with my HDP, but one thing keeps nagging at me, and that is some mild banding, only on dark backgrounds with semi solid colors. I am not 100% sure it's the HDP, but I don't recall seeing it so often before I had the HDP. I have to think this is due to the 8bit r/g/b limitation, but I am not sure.

I use the HDP for two things: color adjustment for my FPJ1 projector, and CIH via shrinking option. I sometimes wonder when a projector will come out that will solve these for me, and have acceptable contrast. The Panny AE4000 is probably not there yet, but I'm thinking these requirements of mine might get there in a year or two. I would love to upgrade to a Radiance, but it will simply never happen at MSRP prices.

I have been pretty happy with my HDP.

I would love to upgrade to a Radiance, but it will simply never happen at MSRP prices.

+I am in the same boat! 1 to 2K is one thing but 3-5K is a little out there.

Rew

The Panny AE4000 is probably not there yet, but I'm thinking these requirements of mine might get there in a year or two.

Coming from an FP11 I think you might still feel it's lacking.....I went from an AE3000 to the HD350 and it's really night and day especially on dark scenes. Maybe the AE5000, but otherwise enjoy what you already have. I don't notice banding on mine, only when watching low bitrate SD TV sources and that's not the HDQ's fault as it's inherent in the source. BluRays don't seem to show this issue, though I have calibrated it as close as my Eye-one sensor will allow, in other words better than by eye, but not a full ISF job. I don't see the point upgrading to the Radiance as that cost would buy me a better PJ with CMS and I'd still have the HDQ for 11 point greyscale and SD upscaling for the rare occasions I don't watch HD.

Yes, I intend to enjoy what I have for a while. I will need something quite significant to change (like LED light source to be common in most projectors), and I am hoping in that time the lens memory feature really starts spreading to other manufacturers.

I have been pretty happy with my HDP, but one thing keeps nagging at me, and that is some mild banding, only on dark backgrounds with semi solid colors. I am not 100% sure it's the HDP, but I don't recall seeing it so often before I had the HDP. I have to think this is due to the 8bit r/g/b limitation, but I am not sure.



I see some banding on my setup as well but only on my SAT service and usually only HD channel commercials and SD TV. I see the same level of banding on my Sony flat panel in the living room so its really in the source. I saw other weird artifacts on HD channels back before I got my HDQ so the HDQ really cleaned up my HD channel viewing. It was like getting a new projector after calibrating it to the correct gamma and grey scale. An HDQ or HDP at used prices is a lot of bang for the buck!

Some of that banding in commercials and SD TV is less noticeable if you use the component connection between the SAT receiver and my HDQ. The extra analog step seems to smooth out the banding some. It doesn't eliminate it but it does seem a little smoother. I hardly ever use it though since SAT viewing isn't critical viewing to me and most of the time its fine. If my Bluray movies had banding I would be upset. I've hardly ever notice any on Bluray.

One other note: Adding the HDQ helped smooth out some of the reported motion artifacts on my RS1. That was the first thing I noticed when I added the HDQ was pans were much smoother.

Ron

Adjustment question. When watching some movies the whites seem too bright and the blacks too black (by that I mean all blacks look the same, no shades) I noticed this in the movies Proposal and Transformers 2. I have a Lumagen HDQ feeding an RS-1. Keep in mind I have over 1000 hours on my bulb if that makes any difference. The Lumagen and the RS-1 were calibrated about 500 hours ago. What adjustment do I have to make to reduce this effect? It sounds like it could be either contrast or gamma. I did read in the hi def digest review that the characters all looked tanned which I did notice, so that was a transfer issue not the processor.
I just am not sure what to play around with. It's nice that if I make a mistake all I do is a power cycle and things are all good.

Adjustment question. When watching some movies the whites seem too bright and the blacks too black (by that I mean all blacks look the same, no shades) I noticed this in the movies Proposal and Transformers 2. I have a Lumagen HDQ feeding an RS-1. Keep in mind I have over 1000 hours on my bulb if that makes any difference. The Lumagen and the RS-1 were calibrated about 500 hours ago. What adjustment do I have to make to reduce this effect? It sounds like it could be either contrast or gamma. I did read in the hi def digest review that the characters all looked tanned which I did notice, so that was a transfer issue not the processor.
I just am not sure what to play around with. It's nice that if I make a mistake all I do is a power cycle and things are all good.

Make sure you are matching "standard" vs. "enhanced" black levels. Also known as "PC" vs. Video" or "0" vs. "7.5".

Yes, I have seen that. I am on standard. Watching some movies, everything is perfect. We just watched an older movie called "out of Time" with Denzel Washington. The picture was beautiful and accurate. I read in the review of TF2 that everyone had a tan and the contrast was way out. I just want to know what to temporarily change to fix the immediate disk problem.

Question... when doing the greyscale... what is the correct luma for each IRE? If one is going to set the gamma through its own spot in the menu tree, does it matter what the luma is set to when setting the greyscale?

Question... when doing the greyscale... what is the correct luma for each IRE? If one is going to set the gamma through its own spot in the menu tree, does it matter what the luma is set to when setting the greyscale?

What Calibration program are you planing on using?

In calman i would first use the Gamma chart and adjust luma for each IRE to get correct gamma. Then go to the greyscale chart and adjust each IRE's RGB for the proper Greyscale. Measure again to see how gamma changed, adjust Luma again to even out the gamma curve and repeat greyscale till it all evens out as close as possible for greyscale and Gamma.

Athanasios

I redid the greyscale and gamma as I described in post number 447. I wanted to do it as Randy described in post number 456 but I couldn't follow his menu tree. Since he mentioned radiance in his post he must have forgotten I have the HDS. Anyways, it took a couple hours to get the gamma and greyscale right but I haven't done it in well over a year. It took a while to get back on the bike!

Btw I use Color HCFR.