Hello:

I use Comcast for my cable TV in the Boston area.
Have their basic analog package.
No Box or digital packages subscribed to.

Just received a new LCD HD digital TV as a gift.

Question: Should I be able to receive local HD programs (or any others ?) without purchasing a Comcast Box or subscribing to their Digital/HD program packages ? I believe the set has the QAM Tuner that folks have mentioned.

The reason I'm asking is that there are local channels broadcast in HD now, and there also seem to be several others, that imply they are in HD that the set "seems" to pick up.

But not sure if we are seeing them in HD or not ?
Maybe just seeing them "digitally," but not HD ?

Would appreciate your opinions on this.
Do you think we are getting HD on the local channels without the Comcast Converter Box and their higher cost digital/HD Packages ?

I tried calling Comcast re this, several times, but it is hopeless.
Seems to be something none of their reps truly knows anything about, or they just don't want to discuss it.

Thanks,
B.

On many but not all cable systems, the local network affiliates and perhaps a few other "freebies" are carried on the cable in "clear QAM". If your set is QAM-capable, you can find and watch these channels by connecting the raw cable signal from the wall (or a split of it) directly to you sets antenna input, and then doing a scan. Consult your sets manual to find out which antenna jack, if there is more than one, and what settings in the scan menu might be needed.

Don't be surprised if the set finds hundreds of blank channels; those are the ones that are coded for conditional access (encrypted), but you should find your locals that way. Your scan will probably also find most or all of the SD analog "legacy" channels in the range of 2-80 or so. QAM channels carrying digital SD and HD programming typically run from about 80 to 125 or so.

Also don't be surprised if the set-indicated "channel" is an unintuitive number like "103.58". That is usually the raw QAM channel (e.g. 103) and the subchannel (e.g. 58) which unfortunately bear no resemblance to either the over-the-air or CATV STB channel number. You may then have to manually delete the unwanted blank channels, or move the usable ones into a "favorites" area for more convenient tuning.

A few enlightened cable systems pass through or add metadata that will identify the source or "real" channel number, but so far that's not common. They'd rather rent you a digital/HD STB which will map the QAM channels to a number that corresponds to their published lineup.

Should be in the Local Boston-Comcast Thread.

On many but not all cable systems, the local network affiliates and perhaps a few other "freebies" are carried on the cable in "clear QAM". If your set is QAM-capable, you can find and watch these channels by connecting the raw cable signal from the wall (or a split of it) directly to you sets antenna input, and then doing a scan.These days, most all cableco's have local HD in the clear, as you note receivable by a QAM tuner. Comcast offers all HD locals in the clear.

i called Comcast serveral weeks ago and asked for a list of QAM channel #s. The answer was "we don't have that information available for you"

i called Comcast serveral weeks ago and asked for a list of QAM channel #s. The answer was "we don't have that information available for you"

Just let the tv do a scan. In my area, ATLANTA, they move them around sometimes.

We have analog 100 channel expanded cable package and we have been unable to detect any HD programming regardless of whatever digital tuner we connect the cable feed to. Now that I have read these posts I will re-try with both our set-top-box receiver and the tuner in our HD tv.

Have you thought about connecting your set's digital tuner to an over-the-air antenna and enjoy the less compressed high quality HD programming from your local network broadcasters?

We will be watching the Super Bowl via our "free" OTA HD and it's always there even if there is a cable failure.

We just aren't ready to buy in to our cable or cat providers HD "upgrade" for now. Our RP HD tv upgrades DirecTV pretty good but the analog cable output is so bad the tv can't do much with it.
goodluck

i called Comcast serveral weeks ago and asked for a list of QAM channel #s. The answer was "we don't have that information available for you"
Most CSR's aren't aware of the QAM channels.

We have analog 100 channel expanded cable package and we have been unable to detect any HD programming regardless of whatever digital tuner we connect the cable feed to.There are different types of digital tuners. The over-the-air tuner can be called ATSC, 8VSB, or DTV (Digital TV). None of these work for cable.

For HD on cable, you need a QAM tuner, and as already noted most likely the only channels you'll find after doing a channel scan are the HD locals.

I have a TV with ATSC,NTSC and QAM. I want to use the TV tuner instead of the STB. Is there a CableCARD reader that is not a Tuner. Something that will decode the signal from the cable company and then my TV's tuner will pick it up. That way I just need one remote. I also installed a A/B switch to go back and forth from Cable and OTA.

I have a TV with ATSC,NTSC and QAM. I want to use the TV tuner instead of the STB. Is there a CableCARD reader that is not a Tuner. Something that will decode the signal from the cable company and then my TV's tuner will pick it up.

What you're asking for does not exist, and is not technically feasible due to the way CableCARD works. It's not a disk/memory card; it's a streaming decryption engine, which the captured bitstream has to be run through to yield an unencrypted stream which can then be fed into the appropriate decoding/display logic. The closest thing would be either (a) a TiVo Series3 (now discontinued) or TiVo HD DVR (which involves a monthly fee), or (b) Sony's DHG-HDD250/500 DVR (also discontinued). Far as I know, there aren't any other widely-available CableCARD set-top box devices, other than the cableco boxes - given that was the intent of CableCARD (to make anyone's box able to receive digital cable), it's a little bit funny.

Thanks demonfoo, that answers my question.
I saw that there is a ATI cableCARD reader that sends the signal
to a computer and you use Windows Media.
Maybe they will make one for the HD TV's.

Thanks demonfoo, that answers my question.
I saw that there is a ATI cableCARD reader that sends the signal
to a computer and you use Windows Media.
Maybe they will make one for the HD TV's.

No, that just sucks in the QAM signal off the cable, decrypts a QAM bundle, pulls the appropriate streams out, and feeds the raw MPEG-2 bitstream to the host PC; might as well just get the cableco box then.

ok, thanks

is I have 8 TV's in my house.

Comcast is telling me they will give me 2 free converter boxes to allow me to see channels 33-82. I already have one HD digital cable box. But, for the other 5 TV's I have, Comcast is saying I will have to pay $1.99 a month per TV to be able to see channels 33-82 ortherwise I just get 2-32.

I think this is total BS. This means to keep the tv's getting what I had before all this, I will have to pay $125 a year when again I paid ZERO.

Is there anyway around this?

I'm interested in the discussion in this thread.

I currently subscribe to comcast HD digital package with one HD box to my main tv, two DTA boxes for regular TVs for the kids, 1 regular Box (with on demand) for the garage.

The problem is, I have another HDTV in my own bedroom without any boxes at all. I just plugged in the comcast coaxal and scanned the channels. I'm getting quite a bit of digital channels and some HD channels, but most of them have no channel info and I can't find any guides listing them.

In the bay area (california), these were the HD digital channels I found:
(with the comcast coaxal cable connected directly to my HDTV input)

2-1 KTVU HD
4-2 KRON HD
5-1 KPIX HD
7-1 KGO HD
7-2 LIVWELL HD
9-1 KQED HD
9-5 KIDS HD
11-1 KNTV HD
36-1 KICU HD
44-1 KBCW HD

There seems to be a ton of digital channels as well in standard definition such as TNT SD on 83-7, 83-8 ESPN SD, and so on...

It would be nice to get a program/channel guide. I'd like to know if any of the network HD channels are available without needing an HD box from comcast.

I'll follow this thread to see if anything new pops up.

It would be nice to get a program/channel guide.You'll need a box of some kind, either from Comcast or a CableCARD host device.

I'd like to know if any of the network HD channels are available without needing an HD box from comcast.Nope.

I'll follow this thread to see if anything new pops up.Like what? Nothing has changed, and nothing is going to change.

I'm interested in the discussion in this thread.

I currently subscribe to comcast HD digital package with one HD box to my main tv, two DTA boxes for regular TVs for the kids, 1 regular Box (with on demand) for the garage.

The problem is, I have another HDTV in my own bedroom without any boxes at all. I just plugged in the comcast coaxal and scanned the channels. I'm getting quite a bit of digital channels and some HD channels, but most of them have no channel info and I can't find any guides listing them.

In the bay area (california), these were the HD digital channels I found:
(with the comcast coaxal cable connected directly to my HDTV input)

2-1 KTVU HD
4-2 KRON HD
5-1 KPIX HD
7-1 KGO HD
7-2 LIVWELL HD
9-1 KQED HD
9-5 KIDS HD
11-1 KNTV HD
36-1 KICU HD
44-1 KBCW HD

There seems to be a ton of digital channels as well in standard definition such as TNT SD on 83-7, 83-8 ESPN SD, and so on...

It would be nice to get a program/channel guide. I'd like to know if any of the network HD channels are available without needing an HD box from comcast.

I'll follow this thread to see if anything new pops up.

The best you can do is this: http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/channels_us

You can't get this information from Comcast, they don't want you to have it. By having the channel list screwed up on clear QAM tuners, it encourages consumers to rent a comcast box. This is the same reason that Comcast customer service representatives have no clue when you mention clear QAM.

You can't get it from someone else in the bay area, because the channel layout is different in different areas. The list at the above link may or may not be correct for your system as quite often there is more than one layout in a zipcode.

If you have a MythTV setup in a computer with an internal tuner card, there is a program you can run that will extract an incomplete list (it ignores all of the HD channels because the free STBs provided by Comcast can't handle them) of channel numbers, subchannel numbers, call sign and Comcast numbers, but it is not particularly easy to set up and use. In my case, it also comes up with 5 different lists with no indication which is the correct one.

I would suggest you manually go through, find an unidentified channel on your clear QAM turner TV, then channel surf the cable box until you find the same channel, and build a list of channel mappings for your clear QAM TV.

The best you can do is this: http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/channels_usSilicon Dust is a poor resource; most locations are not even close to accurate.

You can't get this information from Comcast, they don't want you to have it. By having the channel list screwed up on clear QAM tuners, it encourages consumers to rent a comcast box. This is the same reason that Comcast customer service representatives have no clue when you mention clear QAM.?

Where do you get these ideas? From the fliers the black helicopters drop in your neighborhood?

You give Comcast way too much credit. It's not a conspiracy, they simply don't have the ability to update the CSR's, who for the most part don't know what QAM is anyway, because QAM users represent such a small part of their subscribers.

I am not aware of any Comcast location that does not broadcast local OTA channels usigng clear QAM since the digital cutover. Prior to the cutover some comcast locations suchn as Chicago and Atlantaq and others encryted all of their QAM programs since OTA analog was still aviable from the broadcasters.
It is true that Comcast in many locations does not broadcast the same "channel name" as part of it's PSIP information that is used by the OTA digital broadcast so a user had to map each of these channels separatly in his clear QAM tuner as decribed by DAP in his post.
I get local HD digial chanels in HD clear QAM from a direct cable connecion to my clear QAM capable HDTV without any cable box involved from Cox cable.

I am not aware of any Comcast location that does not broadcast local OTA channels usigng clear QAM since the digital cutover.That's because Comcast has a corporate policy not to encrypt local HD, that has been in effect for years.

Prior to the cutover some comcast locations suchn as Chicago and Atlantaq and others encryted all of their QAM programs since OTA analog was still aviable from the broadcasters.?

No Comcast service area has encrypted local HD for years, maybe for 5-6 years.

is I have 8 TV's in my house.

Comcast is telling me they will give me 2 free converter boxes to allow me to see channels 33-82. I already have one HD digital cable box. But, for the other 5 TV's I have, Comcast is saying I will have to pay $1.99 a month per TV to be able to see channels 33-82 ortherwise I just get 2-32.

I think this is total BS. This means to keep the tv's getting what I had before all this, I will have to pay $125 a year when again I paid ZERO.

Is there anyway around this?


Have you priced DBS ? That makes your $2 / month / TV look cheap.

I would calmly suggest that you evaluate whether you REALLY need all 8 TVs to be able to indepently watch , or if you might be able to get by with sharing the digital tuner box between TVs in some cases.

Have you priced DBS ? That makes your $2 / month / TV look cheap.

I would calmly suggest that you evaluate whether you REALLY need all 8 TVs to be able to indepently watch , or if you might be able to get by with sharing the digital tuner box between TVs in some cases.
Check the date of the post you're replying to. It's 5 months old.

That's because Comcast has a corporate policy not to encrypt local HD, that has been in effect for years.
.

Ken,
I must have misunderstood the following quote from your link 17 post then:

Quote:
I'd like to know if any of the network HD channels are available without needing an HD box from comcast.

Nope.

Ken,
I must have misunderstood the following quote from your link 17 post then:

Quote:
I'd like to know if any of the network HD channels are available without needing an HD box from comcast.

Nope.

Since the poster already said he had local HD, and listed the channels he already was getting, 'network' meant HD channels not available OTA or cable QAM.

You give Comcast way too much credit. It's not a conspiracy, they simply don't have the ability to update the CSR's, who for the most part don't know what QAM is anyway, because QAM users represent such a small part of their subscribers.
It would add about 5 minutes to the training of CSR's to teach them about clear QAM. Given the many stories of CSR's adamantly denying there is any way to get HD without their cable box, they are not just uninformed, they are misinformed.
The reasons I give for comcasts reluctance to release info on actual channel numbers, and CSR ignorance of clear QAM, I admit are from my own paranoia, but I find them plausible.

Plausible perhaps, but incorrect. I've personally spoke with a very few Comcast CSR's that actually know what QAM is. Comcast tells me they instruct the CSR's to escalate the QAM questions to a supervisor, but the average caller doesn't know what to ask or how to get a CSR to escalate, and the CSR gets reviewed on the number of 'successful' calls they handle. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending what Comcast does, just trying to explain it.

As far as the actual channel numbers go, due to system upgrades and changes, they change all the time, and the info does not get sent to CSR's, again due to the reasons above.

One thing I will say positive is that Comcast made it corporate policy to pass local HD in the clear, years before other cableco's did. But yes, the execution is very poor.

Here's a little anecdotal info:

A Comcast CSR, who's been on the job for about 9 months, has spoke with roughly 7500 Comcast subscribers. In that time, he/she has spoken with a total of 3 customers about QAM. And this is a CSR who fully well knows about QAM.

On the other hand, they speak to at least 3 customers a day who do not have their TV on the correct input/channel for their cable box.

You make the call.

Silicon Dust is a poor resource; most locations are not even close to accurate.



My previous response to this was inadvertently deleted.

I said that the silicon dust site was the best source of raw channel numbers, I did NOT say that it was a good source. As far as I know, it is also the ONLY source besides creating the list yourself.

Comcast has an internal list of which channel is where, and could easily publish this for those who have a clear QAM TV and do not have a cable box, but they choose not to. More than that, they refuse to give this information to websites that deliver television schedules, giving them only the Comcast remapped channels instead. Comcast could completely eliminate any need for the raw channel number mapping if they would use the standard existing method of channel mapping that OTA signals use. Instead they insist on re-inventing the wheel, using a proprietary system that only works on their cable boxes.

I am aware that Comcast plays musical channels on a regular basis, but looking at their spectrum, I can see no plausible reason for this other than to make it inconvenient to use a clear QAM tuner. In spite of having a limited basic trap in my system so I can't see channels between 35 & 70, I can currently see 16 completely empty channels on my spectrum analyzer. This does not include any channels above channel 130, the highest channel that comcast is currently using.

AFAIK not all Comcast locations publish the "Channel Name" in the PSIP data for their QAM channels that is the same as the "Channel Name" that is contained in the OTA digital channel PSIP data such as "2-1, 7-1, 7-2" etc. Instead these Comcast locations place the actual QAM channel information as the "Channel Name" such as 102-4 or 103-6 instead. Some local area forum links contain the translation list.

Comcast has an internal list of which channel is where, and could easily publish this for those who have a clear QAM TV and do not have a cable box, but they choose not to. More than that, they refuse to give this information to websites that deliver television schedules, giving them only the Comcast remapped channels instead. What you are suggesting is impractical. There would need to be some sort of PSIP information for each channel so that the channels would be consistent across multiple systems in the same area. That would mean cable boxes would have to be made to understand and decode PSIP while also providing some sort of conditional access. Just simply leaving channels with the RF channel number would cause all the channels to be jumbled around with no sense of where the channel are in each package or from city to city.

Comcast like almost all other cable companies are now a collection of smaller cable system bought over the years. Because of this many neighboring areas have different cable systems that have been joined together causing neighboring cities to have the same channel delivered through different RF channels. Thus any list would vary from city to city and could change whenever bandwidth needs dictate.

I am aware that Comcast plays musical channels on a regular basis, but looking at their spectrum, I can see no plausible reason for this other than to make it inconvenient to use a clear QAM tuner. There are many reason why the shuffling takes place, usually related to channel adds, moves, deletions, or engineering needs such as new features or ad splicing.

PSIP data is by definition unique for each channel and is contained within the channel transmission. The following link is a description of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_and_System_Information_Protocol

What you are suggesting is impractical.

Yes it is, which is why I also suggested that they should be using the same method that is used for OTA broadcasts: embed the remapped channel number in the channel itself in a way that all clear QAM tuners already understand and properly handle. In my area, this is already done for the OTA HD channels on cable (mostly because Comcast does not strip it out), but not for any of the 35 or so the SD channels for which my tuner displays the raw channel-subchannel for its channel number.
There would need to be some sort of PSIP information for each channel so that the channels would be consistent across multiple systems in the same area. That would mean cable boxes would have to be made to understand and decode PSIP while also providing some sort of conditional access.
Not really, it only means that Comcast should add PSIP to only the clear QAM channels. They can still use their existing method with their STB for all channels clear or not and just ignore the PSIP on the clear QAM channels.
But why do you think handling PSIP is so hard? There are a bunch of off the shelf chipsets for OTA television that do this already. Entire tuner systems that handle this properly sell for less than $40 retail.
Just simply leaving channels with the RF channel number would cause all the channels to be jumbled around with no sense of where the channel are in each package or from city to city.

Comcast like almost all other cable companies are now a collection of smaller cable system bought over the years. Because of this many neighboring areas have different cable systems that have been joined together causing neighboring cities to have the same channel delivered through different RF channels. Thus any list would vary from city to city and could change whenever bandwidth needs dictate.

which is why Comcasts current method is such a bad idea.
Since the PSIP would be part of the data stream of the channel, the remapping could be done once at the source and would show up correctly regardless of the cable system or the channel it was broadcast on.
The only flaw in this system is that when a channel is moved, one must rescan to find it again.

The main flaw in the system is that Comcast has to have equipment capable of inserting the PSIP data, and has to pay someone to sit there and set it up, times every headend in the country. When doing nothing is free and results in no significant loss of revenue, why would they spend money?

When doing nothing is free and results in no significant loss of revenue, why would they spend money?For such a very small number of subs.

Not really, it only means that Comcast should add PSIP to only the clear QAM channels. They can still use their existing method with their STB for all channels clear or not and just ignore the PSIP on the clear QAM channels.
But why do you think handling PSIP is so hard? There are a bunch of off the shelf chipsets for OTA television that do this already. Entire tuner systems that handle this properly sell for less than $40 retail.It is not the decoding of PSIP that is expensive, it is the creation, insertion, and maintenance of such a system.

which is why Comcasts current method is such a bad idea.
Since the PSIP would be part of the data stream of the channel, the remapping could be done once at the source and would show up correctly regardless of the cable system or the channel it was broadcast on.
That assumes that the channel is on the same channel across all systems. Most areas the analog lineup differ from city to city.


The only flaw in this system is that when a channel is moved, one must rescan to find it again.
A flaw not present in digital boxes.

It is not the decoding of PSIP that is expensive, it is the creation, insertion, and maintenance of such a system.

For every channel on the system, comcast invested in a box to compress the signal. It would have been trivial to include PSIP capability in the hardware that does the compression. Currently, comcast is broadcasting 3 copies of every OTA channel, the HD version that they do nothing to but QAM encoding, the digital SD version that they must create from the HD version, and the analog version that also must be created from the HD version.

That assumes that the channel is on the same channel across all systems. Most areas the analog lineup differ from city to city.

The differences are mostly the OTA channels. They could easily set aside a block of common channels and have all of them map to the same channel numbers. In fact, with the channel renumbering capability, they could assign unique channel numbers to all the channels country wide.


A flaw not present in digital boxes.

But a problem created by Comcast with their unnecessary constant channel shuffling. Before digital broadcasting, the channel a signal was broadcast on seldom changed. There is no plausible reason they need to change them as often as they do.

For every channel on the system, comcast invested in a box to compress the signal. It would have been trivial to include PSIP capability in the hardware that does the compression. Currently, comcast is broadcasting 3 copies of every OTA channel, the HD version that they do nothing to but QAM encoding, the digital SD version that they must create from the HD version, and the analog version that also must be created from the HD version.
Features that would benefit few and have no real return for Comcast is not a trivial matter. Such features cost money in equipment and manpower. It is not a simple as one box to add PSIP information, it is also important to consider any downstream equipment that has to pass the PSIP, especially considering any conflicts that might happen in a MUX that has some service encrypted and some in the clear.

Someone correct me if the following is wrong.
Comcast is including PSIP data with every channel since it is required by the US ATSC digital standards. The problem is that instead of it stating that the channel name is 2-1 or 7-2 it is stating the the name is the actual QAM channel name such as 102-1, 104-3 etc. And therefore when you scan their digital service for clear QAM channels you get back 102-1 or 104-3. In some comcast locations users have posted a list of what the OTA channel names are for the different QAM channel names in the local area AVS- forum for their city.
I saw some posts that indicated that some Comcast locations have correct the name in their PSIP data to match the OTA digital channel name that is published in all of the guides, however, I don't know if this is true or not.

But a problem created by Comcast with their unnecessary constant channel shuffling. Before digital broadcasting, the channel a signal was broadcast on seldom changed. There is no plausible reason they need to change them as often as they do.
That's a pretty spacious assumption, and one I can tell you is incorrect.

It's unfortunate you believe they do this to make it harder for subs using QAM, because that's not the case.

Someone correct me if the following is wrong.
Comcast is including PSIP data with every channel since it is required by the US ATSC digital standards. The problem is that instead of it stating that the channel name is 2-1 or 7-2 it is stating the the name is the actual QAM channel name such as 102-1, 104-3 etc. And therefore when you scan their digital service for clear QAM channels you get back 102-1 or 104-3. In some comcast locations users have posted a list of what the OTA channel names are for the different QAM channel names in the local area AVS- forum for their city.
I saw some posts that indicated that some Comcast locations have correct the name in their PSIP data to match the OTA digital channel name that is published in all of the guides, however, I don't know if this is true or not.
That is incorrect. Comcast does not include PSIP data for most clear QAM channels. Most areas have it for the local broadcast HD channels and their subchannels, but not for anything else. 102-1 is the physical location of the channel, i.e. channel 102, program 1.

Some areas have PSIP on the broadcast channels, but it isn't consistent. Some might have single-number virtual channels, which are valid but not supported by a lot of decoders and might show as 1008.x or not at all. Some use 0 as a minor channel, which isn't valid according to the spec. The most common problem is simply not including some programs, which makes them completely invisible to certain tuners like my Samsung TV.

Someone correct me if the following is wrong.
Comcast is including PSIP data with every channel since it is required by the US ATSC digital standards. The problem is that instead of it stating that the channel name is 2-1 or 7-2 it is stating the the name is the actual QAM channel name such as 102-1, 104-3 etc. And therefore when you scan their digital service for clear QAM channels you get back 102-1 or 104-3. In some comcast locations users have posted a list of what the OTA channel names are for the different QAM channel names in the local area AVS- forum for their city.
I saw some posts that indicated that some Comcast locations have correct the name in their PSIP data to match the OTA digital channel name that is published in all of the guides, however, I don't know if this is true or not.

The Channel assignment for cable QAM Modulators goes by the UDP port, for example if you using QAM 699mhz than your UDP port setting would be 49120, from there adding channels to that QAM would go by 49122,41924, etc. This in turn could show on a set top or Clear QAM tuner as 240,242,246.

You can not map it match the OTA ATSC channel mapping and its not required to do so. All of this done by The CATV companies and how they want to map their QAM's with line up. Local channels could be 100's, Sports and entertainment 200's, Premium Pays 300's, etc.

It's unfortunate you believe they do this to make it harder for subs using QAM, because that's not the case.

MSOs will not even publish channel lists. When lineups change, there is no notice whatsoever.

Customer service even tells subscribers they need a special package just to watch local news in HD.

This isn't a mere oversight.

The main flaw in the system is that Comcast has to have equipment capable of inserting the PSIP data, and has to pay someone to sit there and set it up, times every headend in the country. When doing nothing is free and results in no significant loss of revenue, why would they spend money?

This is penny-pinching stuff, considering Comcast's resources. It reminds me of the argument that MSOs can't handle the expense of maintaining Line 21 closed captioning from headend to subscribers.

MSOs will not even publish channel lists. When lineups change, there is no notice whatsoever.
Who are they going to publish these channel lists that can vary widely from city to city for? A separate channel guide would just create confusion with customers who will mix up the channel numbers from their lineup that shows the channel number for their digital box.


Customer service even tells subscribers they need a special package just to watch local news in HD.
Customer service tells people alot of things. It is unfortunate but true that the people doing that job don't always fully understand the product offering.


This isn't a mere oversight.
It is not an oversight, it is simply just not a priority.

MSOs will not even publish channel lists. When lineups change, there is no notice whatsoever.

Customer service even tells subscribers they need a special package just to watch local news in HD.

This isn't a mere oversight.
You are confused.

It is not an oversight, it is simply just not a priority.

Most times, easy things get done even when they are not a priority.

I'd like to see the Comcast apologists name even ONE thing that Comcast has done to make using clear QAM tuners easier.

It seems to me the only thing they have done is save money by not paying for hardware to encrypt those clear QAM channels. Though I am quite certain they would pay to encrypt the HD locals if the FCC allowed them to.

I'd like to see the Comcast apologists name even ONE thing that Comcast has done to make using clear QAM tuners easier.

Here in the Detroit market they have taken all of the SD locals and remapped them to the 200 channel range. Channel 2=202-1, 4=204-1, 7=207-1 and so forth. Before they did this they were all listed by there RF channel and MPEG program number.

It seems to me the only thing they have done is save money by not paying for hardware to encrypt those clear QAM channels.
The hardware that these channel pass through that is already in place can encrypt these channels, it is just a setting to be in the clear or not.

Here in the Detroit market they have taken all of the SD locals and remapped them to the 200 channel range. Channel 2=202-1, 4=204-1, 7=207-1 and so forth. Before they did this they were all listed by there RF channel and MPEG program number.
It is there digital tuner box guides doing the remaping since on their digtial tuner boxes they have to provide a totaly different channel numbers between their analog and digitial channels.
With my Cox digital tuner PVR HD channel 2 is 702 and analog channel 2 is 2.
But with the clear QAM tuner in my HDTV HD Channel 2 is channel 2-1 which is the same name as OTA digital Channel 2. So the name in the actual PSIP data is 2-1 and not 702.

It is there digital tuner box guides doing the remaping since on their digtial tuner boxes they have to provide a totaly different channel numbers between their analog and digitial channels.
With my Cox digital tuner PVR HD channel 2 is 702 and analog channel 2 is 2.
But with the clear QAM tuner in my HDTV HD Channel 2 is channel 2-1 which is the same name as OTA digital Channel 2. So the name in the actual PSIP data is 2-1 and not 702.

No what I mentioned has nothing to do with the digital box. I am talking about clear QAM. The HD stations via clear QAM show up as 2=2-1, 4=4-1, 7=7-1 and so forth. The SD downconverts that Comcast is passing show up in the 200 range thru clear QAM. Comcast is providing the remapping of the SD channels thru modified PSIP.

I'd like to see the Comcast apologists name even ONE thing that Comcast has done to make using clear QAM tuners easier.


If it makes anybody feel any better...... It's not just Comcast. Charter here does the exact same things. Moves the QAM channels around for no apparent reason, tells no one where they are, tells unknowing customers that "the only way to get HD is with the Charter HD box", etc. :rolleyes:

It is there digital tuner box guides doing the remaping since on their digtial tuner boxes they have to provide a totaly different channel numbers between their analog and digitial channels.
With my Cox digital tuner PVR HD channel 2 is 702 and analog channel 2 is 2.
But with the clear QAM tuner in my HDTV HD Channel 2 is channel 2-1 which is the same name as OTA digital Channel 2. So the name in the actual PSIP data is 2-1 and not 702.
About how many local SD digital channels do you have in detroit that Comcast is providing in clear QAM?

I'd like to see the Comcast apologists name even ONE thing that Comcast has done to make using clear QAM tuners easier.If you're referring to me, you are treading on very thin ice, as I've already said I'm not defending how Comcast handles QAM locals, which I'd like to see made more end user friendly. I'm just trying to explain why it's not a sinister plot as you and others misguidedly think. It's a very simple matter of the number of end users affected, and the associated cost to implement what you'd like. The bottom line is that not that many HDTV owners are content with just local HD. The overwhelming majority, regardless of cable, DBS, fiber, IPTV, want as much HD as possible and are willing to pay for it and use a STB.


Though I am quite certain they would pay to encrypt the HD locals if the FCC allowed them to.And as certain as you are, I can tell you will 100% certainty that you are as wrong as can be.

If you knew the history of local HD in clear QAM, which you obviously do not, Comcast was the first large cableco that made it corporate policy to pass local HD in clear QAM, years and years before others like TWC, Cox, and Charter, who refused to do so until pressured by market forces.

The hardware that these channel pass through that is already in place can encrypt these channels, it is just a setting to be in the clear or not.

Another example of the ignorance some are laboring under.

About how many local SD digital channels do you have in detroit that Comcast is providing in clear QAM?

There are 11 SD locals that are in the 200 range. All of the channels are in the same MUX which contains 1 ABC, 1 NBC, 1 CBS,1 FOX, 1 ION, 1 CW, 1 MyNet, 1 IND, and 3 PBS stations. Only 2 of the PBS stations show up in the box, so you can actually get an extra station through clear QAM. The HD version and any digital OTA sub channels carried by Comcast in this area show up with their OTA channel number.

If you're referring to me, you are treading on very thin ice, as I've already said I'm not defending how Comcast handles QAM locals, which I'd like to see made more end user friendly.

I totally agree, I think that making sure that PSIP is being passed correctly and remapping the SD locals to the 200 range are good first steps. Better training in sales and support about QAM could go a long way especially as we see more smaller HDTVs equipped with QAM tuners show up in rooms where either a box is not wanted or just the local channel will do.

I totally agree, I think that making sure that PSIP is being passed correctly and remapping the SD locals to the 200 range are good first steps. Better training in sales and support about QAM could go a long way especially as we see more smaller HDTVs equipped with QAM tuners show up in rooms where either a box is not wanted or just the local channel will do.

I very much agree, we map our locals in the 200's and Try our best with PSIP. As far as CSR's go there are too many different brands of TV's to support for educating the customer on how to use their TV's and to be honest would take up too much time on the phone on how to program and what channels are available.

But I agree it could be posted on the company website with a simple breakdown of what to expect, especially since they advertise Free Local HDTV...!

Personally I'd just like to see Comcast PSIP all the channels to their cable box equivalent; i.e., if it's channel 138 on the box then it's channel 138 in clear QAM (SD or HD). Don't understand why this could not be done easily, the box maps already exist - make something to translate the box map for PSIP automatically.

No one using clear QAM cares whether local HD channel 2 is either 2-1 (ATSC) or 98-3 (QAM) or 803 (box) - they just want it to be a consistent number that doesn't change. And that definitely means don't use the QAM numbers.

Personally I'd just like to see Comcast PSIP all the channels to their cable box equivalent; i.e., if it's channel 138 on the box then it's channel 138 in clear QAM (SD or HD). Don't understand why this could not be done easily, the box maps already exist - make something to translate the box map for PSIP automatically.

The problem with that is first you have to have, maintain, and operate the equipment to do that. Secondly, with different lineups from city to city especially of limited basic stations (those most likely to be available in the clear), different PSIP information would have to be generated for each area. This would become very problematic for narrowcast services such as PEG channels.

There are 11 SD locals that are in the 200 range. All of the channels are in the same MUX which contains 1 ABC, 1 NBC, 1 CBS,1 FOX, 1 ION, 1 CW, 1 MyNet, 1 IND, and 3 PBS stations. Only 2 of the PBS stations show up in the box, so you can actually get an extra station through clear QAM. The HD version and any digital OTA sub channels carried by Comcast in this area show up with their OTA channel number.
Is Comcast in Detroit all digital. Or are the multicasting both SD analog and SD digital of the local channels in addition to the HD version of the channels.
The good news appears to be that the PSIP data for the SD and HD digital channels shows the OTA channel names and not the QAM channel numbers.

Personally I'd just like to see Comcast PSIP all the channels to their cable box equivalent; i.e., if it's channel 138 on the box then it's channel 138 in clear QAM (SD or HD).Doesn't the range of QAM channels end at 135.999?

Doesn't the range of QAM channels end at 135.999?

For an 860 MHz system, yes; if their system has already gone to 1 GHz, then the channels do go higher (though I don't recall the exact limit, I think it caps out somewhere around 155).

Is Comcast in Detroit all digital. Or are the multicasting both SD analog and SD digital of the local channels in addition to the HD version of the channels.
The good news appears to be that the PSIP data for the SD and HD digital channels shows the OTA channel names and not the QAM channel numbers.

The whole area is currently cutting analog channels system by system and introducing the DTAs. However even after these cuts the local channels and the rest of limited basic remain in analog. So there still is a SD analog, SD digital, and if carried HD version of each local channel. Only one PBS station is carried in analog in each area. The secondary PBS station is digital only thru Comcast.

Doesn't the range of QAM channels end at 135.999?

Depends on the cable system, but the raw channel number can go up to 158

Few if any providers actually put TV above 135 since the vast majority of deployed cable boxes will only tune through 135. The higher frequencies, when present, are mainly used for DOCSIS 3 modems.

Bright House in Bakersfield recently started mapping clear QAM local HD channels to the same as their analog cable channel, with a -1 on the end. For example KGET NBC is analog cable channel 3, clear QAM channel 3-1, box channel 1003, and RF channel 79-1. For some reason the SD digital versions are scrambled.

My Vizio tv tops out at channel 136, my Phillips and Magnavox tvs and LG DVD recorder go up to 135, and my Durabrand only goes uo to 125. According to the Phillips' signal strength meter, Bright House's highest RF channel is 123. The highest with in the clear content is 85, or switched digital video on 116 (amazingly neighbor's switched channels, on demand, and pay per view is in clear QAM).

Desert Hawk.
I see noting unusual in your service.
The NBC OTA primary digital channel number is 3-1 and this is the name provided in the PSIP data for the HD channel over unencrypted QAM. The program is also being converted to SD analog channel 3 for use by TVs that do not have HD digital channels. The fact that they are also mulitcasting SD channel 3 over QAM is so that any digital tuner only STB that they are offering can receive it as channel 3. Channel 1003 is just the STB alias for the HD QAM channel named 3-1. The fact that the digital version of SD channel 3 is encrypted is Ok since the analog version is not.
There is not reason to encrypt SDV or Pay per view since AFAIK it is only being received by the home that requested it.

................................ There is not reason to encrypt SDV or Pay per view since AFAIK it is only being received by the home that requested it.

I don't know about SDV, but up until about 2 years ago I could receive many channels of PPV via my QAM tuners. Only problem was that it was pretty aggravating to try to actual watch it, because the movie could pause or shut off at any time. I could almost hear someone's phone ring, or someone say "I gotta go to the bathroom" . . . . . :rolleyes:

Doesn't the range of QAM channels end at 135.999?
I guess I don't understand how TVs tune QAM channels that have a virtual number assigned. The TV shouldn't care whether it's channel 2-1 or channel 803 - it's a virtual number mapped to the real channel freq, not an actual channel freq like 98.3.

So there should be no upper limit (short of 9999 perhaps) for a virtual QAM channel number assigned with PSIP, because the real channel (1-135 plus the PID, e.g. 98.3) is mapped to any 3 or 4 digit virtual number. The TV tunes the real channel based on that mapping, just like on a cable box.

Desert Hawk.
I see noting unusual in your service.
The NBC OTA primary digital channel number is 3-1 and this is the name provided in the PSIP data for the HD channel over unencrypted QAM. The program is also being converted to SD analog channel 3 for use by TVs that do not have HD digital channels. The fact that they are also mulitcasting SD channel 3 over QAM is so that any digital tuner only STB that they are offering can receive it as channel 3. Channel 1003 is just the STB alias for the HD QAM channel named 3-1. The fact that the digital version of SD channel 3 is encrypted is Ok since the analog version is not.
There is not reason to encrypt SDV or Pay per view since AFAIK it is only being received by the home that requested it.

As far as SDV and PPV go they are encrypted, thats why it can only be received by the set-top requesting it. But as far as what fiber-nodes receive it. That is based on service groups, which are based upon total tuner counts i.e DVR units count for two and non DVR count just as one. The total amount of tuner's for a service group is around 300-600 , depending MSO.

I could almost hear someone's phone ring, or someone say "I gotta go to the bathroom" . . . . . :rolleyes:

Or: "Oooh, let's see that again... and again... and again..."

Ybsane,
I was responding to the following quote in desert Hawks post link # 67 and believed I was correct but based on your post I am now completly confused on this issue.

"
(amazingly neighbor's switched channels, on demand, and pay per view is in clear QAM
"

Some providers encrypt all SDV and VOD, some encrypt none, some encrypt just the premium content.

KGET NBC is not OTA channel 3-1. It is 17-1 (RF 25-1). If Bright House were using the same mapping scheme as Comcast, it would be clear QAM 17-1 instead of 3-1. Until August the HD local channels were on box channel numbers in the 40s and the clear QAM mapping was 43-1 for KGET NBC HD. They recently changed the box channels for all HD channels to 1000 + the SD channel number and got around to changing the clear QAM mapping to the same as the analog cable channel with -1 added.

Why is there any need to carry SD digital versions of HD channels? Why would manufacturers make SD cable boxes that can only tune 480i digital signals? Even the cheap OTA CECBs can tune an HD signal and downrez it to 480i (although a few stations might be unaware of this, as they insist on wasting bandwidth on an SD simulcast on the -2 subchannel). Ditto DVD recorders and the few SD sets with digital tuners.

Many oif the newer model cable STBs do not have analog tuners they only have QAM digital tuners. Therefore the cable companies need to multicast the SD channels as both standard analog channels for use with TVs without digital tuners and in QAM digital for use with these newer models cable STBs.

I guess I don't understand how TVs tune QAM channels that have a virtual number assigned. The TV shouldn't care whether it's channel 2-1 or channel 803 - it's a virtual number mapped to the real channel freq, not an actual channel freq like 98.3.

So there should be no upper limit (short of 9999 perhaps) for a virtual QAM channel number assigned with PSIP, because the real channel (1-135 plus the PID, e.g. 98.3) is mapped to any 3 or 4 digit virtual number. The TV tunes the real channel based on that mapping, just like on a cable box.Charter in Greenville SC provides, AFAIK, no PSIP with their clear QAM. Some of their analog provide some sort of PSIP, but it appears to be what is provided to them somehow. We see PSIP of WEVE on Bravo, HALL-E on Hallmark (assume the E is east?), ABCF for ABC Family, AEN2 and THC2 for A&E and History for example.

Aside, my Sony and Vizio operate somewhat differently; Sony shows all QAM channels on the wire in their list; Vizio only those that are unencrypted. My Sony shows the PIDs up to 65532, I believe. The highest unencrypted seems to be 90.105 which is the Inspirational Network. There are 2 normal SD video programs in the 90.x block, 2 weather channels, and 45 or so MusicChoice.

Many oif the newer model cable STBs do not have analog tuners they only have QAM digital tuners. Therefore the cable companies need to multicast the SD channels as both standard analog channels for use with TVs without digital tuners and in QAM digital for use with these newer models cable STBs.

I think you are answering a different question than was asked.

In my area, Comcast broadcasts the HD version of all OTA channels as well as a digital SD AND analog SD. Also many of the cable channels are broadcast as digital SD AND HD.
The question is: What is the point of the digital SD version?
Is Comcast really that penny pinching that they would distribute a STB that could only handle digital SD signals and could not take the HD version and downres it to 480i?

The digital SD version is redundant and a waste of bandwidth.

I think you are answering a different question than was asked.

In my area, Comcast broadcasts the HD version of all OTA channels as well as a digital SD AND analog SD.
The question is: What is the point of the digital SD version?
Is Comcast really that penny pinching that they would distribute a STB that could only handle digital SD signals and could not take the HD version and downres it to 480i?

The digital SD version is redundant and a waste of bandwidth.
The DTA boxes can't do HD.

Some of the SD analog channels(2-67) that are being broadcast in both analog and in digital do not have HD digital counterparts so there would be no way to receive them on a digital only tuner box that could not receive SD 480i digital content.

AFAIK none of the cable SD STBs can decode HD. The CECBs are probably newer than all the STBs (the cablecard update doesn't count).

AFAIK none of the cable SD STBs can decode HD. The CECBs are probably newer than all the STBs (the cablecard update doesn't count).

The Motorola DCX100 has only SD outputs but does take in HD signals.

The Motorola DCX100 has only SD outputs but does take in HD signals.

as do ALL of the coupon eligible OTA STBs that sell for about $40. This just proves that Comcast could have done this cheaply.

Some of the SD analog channels(2-67) that are being broadcast in both analog and in digital do not have HD digital counterparts so there would be no way to receive them on a digital only tuner box that could not receive SD 480i digital content.

This is irrelevant. Any STB that could decode and downres HD to 480i could easily decode any SD signal.

as do ALL of the coupon eligible OTA STBs that sell for about $40. This just proves that Comcast could have done this cheaply.

CECB are ATSC not QAM like a cable STB. The DCX is a full fledged cable box meaning it can run the guide software and interactive programs such as Caller ID to TV. DTAs are cheap and would be more expensive if they were able to decode HD, since there is already a huge number of SD STBs already deployed currently that is not a big movement to move to HD in/SD out boxes. For most markets with the number of SD locals, it will take up 1 QAM, not all the big of a savings if it can be cut.

You are getting confused between the modulation method used for broadcasting HD content and the encoding standard used for content itself.
In the US the OTA digital broadcaster are required to use 8VSB digital RF signal modulation and are required to use the ATSC encoding standards for the actual recorded content. Cable companies use QAM digital RF signal modulation and they also use the ATSC standards for the actual program encoding.
The use of the term "ATSC tuner" has regretfully become common place for an OTA 8vsb tuner used by only the OTA broadcasters.
DAP,
I have 5 TVs in my home 4 of them are good old standard Analog tuner models and they can receive analog channels 2-67 from my cable company without the use of any DTV converter boxes. My 5th TV uses a digial only QAM tuner which means that the same 2-67 channels that are avaialable over analog are also available over digital. Many of these channels are SD cable only channels. If my cable company did not multicast the "analog" SD channels also in QAM my TVs could not work they do.

You are getting confused between the modulation method used for broadcasting HD content and the encoding standard used for content itself.
In the US the OTA digital broadcaster are required to use 8VSB digital RF signal modulation and are required to use the ATSC encoding standards for the actual recorded content. Cable companies use QAM digital RF signal modulation and they also use the ATSC standards for the actual program encoding.
The use of the term "ATSC tuner" has regretfully become common place for an OTA 8vsb tuner used by only the OTA broadcasters.
DAP,
I have 5 TVs in my home 4 of them are good old standard Analog tuner models and they can receive analog channels 2-67 from my cable company without the use of any DTV converter boxes. My 5th TV uses a digial only QAM tuner which means that the same 2-67 channels that are avaialable over analog are also available over digital. Many of these channels are SD cable only channels. If my cable company did not multicast the "analog" SD channels also in QAM my TVs could not work they do.

I think you are confused on the cable company side, the only thing ATSC in my Head-End is a Tandberg Reciever for OTA-8-vsb...thats it, the rest of the modulation process is 6-mhz NTSC channel line-ups with 2-78 analog with a 200mhz digital 256 tier.

You are getting confused between the modulation method used for broadcasting HD content and the encoding standard used for content itself.
In the US the OTA digital broadcaster are required to use 8VSB digital RF signal modulation and are required to use the ATSC encoding standards for the actual recorded content. Cable companies use QAM digital RF signal modulation and they also use the ATSC standards for the actual program encoding.
The use of the term "ATSC tuner" has regretfully become common place for an OTA 8vsb tuner used by only the OTA broadcasters.
DAP,
I have 5 TVs in my home 4 of them are good old standard Analog tuner models and they can receive analog channels 2-67 from my cable company without the use of any DTV converter boxes. My 5th TV uses a digial only QAM tuner which means that the same 2-67 channels that are avaialable over analog are also available over digital. Many of these channels are SD cable only channels. If my cable company did not multicast the "analog" SD channels also in QAM my TVs could not work they do.
It is you who is confused. Very few cable providers provide expanded basic channels in unencrypted digital format. It's primarily limited to Comcast in a small number of markets, and the official word is that these will be converting to the pseudo-encrypted "privacy mode" in the coming months. Your TV may have a digital 8VSB/QAM tuner in it, but it also has an analog NTSC tuner which is giving you the 2-67 channels.

I never meant to imply that the analog channels 2-67 which are being multicast in QAM digital are all unencrypted.

I could be wrong... but, analog is not "multicasted". You may want to use the term "simulcasted" when referring to analog cable channels that also have a digital counterpart.

FWIW... Comcast in my area does not simulcast every analog channel (cable 2-69) with an unencrypted digital channel. Locals only.

CECB are ATSC not QAM like a cable STB. The DCX is a full fledged cable box meaning it can run the guide software and interactive programs such as Caller ID to TV. DTAs are cheap and would be more expensive if they were able to decode HD, since there is already a huge number of SD STBs already deployed currently that is not a big movement to move to HD in/SD out boxes. For most markets with the number of SD locals, it will take up 1 QAM, not all the big of a savings if it can be cut.

The modulation scheme is irrelevant. Once the signal is demodulated, the data streams are identical between 8VSB and QAM. The only real difference is that OTA broadcasts are required by law to have the PSIP included. The existing cable STBs are probably much more expensive than the coupon eligible boxes precisely because they added the encryption capability, and the proprietary channel mapping. But the very existence of the coupon eligible boxes is proof that the capability to receive and decode an HD signal then down convert it to 480i is not expensive.

I could be wrong... but, analog is not "multicasted". You may want to use the term "simulcasted" when referring to analog cable channels that also have a digital counterpart.

FWIW... Comcast in my area does not simulcast every analog channel (cable 2-69) with an unencrypted digital channel. Locals only.

In my area, Comcast DOES simulcast every analog channel as clear QAM in SD. It encrypts ALL HD except for OTA channels.

I never meant to imply that the analog channels 2-67 which are being multicast in QAM digital are all unencrypted.
If my cable company did not multicast the "analog" SD channels also in QAM my TVs could not work they do.
These statements seem to be mutually exclusive. Either they're unencrypted and your TV can receive them, or they're encrypted and it can't.

The 480i QAM simulcast copy of the analog channels is stictly for use by the digital tuner only STB from my cable company. For all other TV connections it is not needed since then analog channels are available.