It is often said that the enemy of the perfect is the good. Frankly, there are simply no studies or discussions out there on this question of can people employ HDM in their homes effectively. I see lots of discussion arguing over sales numbers, validity of stats, etc...., but this is rather like going to the forest and forgetting it is made of trees. I am curious as to folks real world usage of HDM. I hope this will be akin to the thread on why you haven't yet bought BR or HDDVD. That was enlightening and possibly useful for the industry.

So my question is, if you have an HDM format of any kind (downloads, cable VOD, BR, HDDVD), do you fully utilize the spec? Are you watching in 1080P on a screen larger than 42 inches listening to the 7.1 channel Dolby True HD or DTS-HD MA audio track in a room which is large enough to be properly configured to suggested THX spec or a similar? Do you know any folks beyond the hardcore AVS member embracing all of HDM's tech?


I believe that this is the problem that HDM faces....it is a classical case of the "technology of uselessness."

In my mind, to fully employ HDM, you need a 1080P tv of suitable size (typically larger than 42"), a 7.1 channel surround sound system in a room of suitable size, and A/V room which will permit you to gain the advantages of both through proper placement and setup. It is well known that 1080P on a TV under 32 inches is fraud and waste. Further, 7.1 surround on a small home theater is also waste.


[Below would be the type of response that I am looking for]

So, to start, I have a 50 inch Samsung 1080i that I purchased two years ago, an Onkyo 705 with Martin Logan Aerius, Cinema One, (4) Mirage OmniSat surrounds mounted on a 10 ft ceiling in a fairly open air patio home with a Paradigm 2500 hitting the low notes. I use an Onkyo upconverter DVD and have no HD player. My house was just bought, so I won't be moving for a few years. With my living room layout, to be honest 7.1 is only not a waste because I have such high ceilings, otherwise HDM has nothing to offer me and I could not fully employ it given my circumstances. Additionally, out of all of my friends (all well-paid lawyers here in Houston), not a single one has bought into HDM. I'm sorry but that is what I have to report. I fear that my experience is not unlike what many others experience and HDM will be a niche until it loses features or is scaled down to offer only good enough service for most people.

downmixed lossless (7.1 -> 5.1) sounds way better than legacy 5.1 audio hence upgrades to the amp & speakers is not needed to get a huge improvement in aq .

getting a new player along with a pre/pro is not that big of hassle.

new hardware plays legacy software so you have an option of reusing the most expensive part.

downmixed lossless (7.1 -> 5.1) sounds way better than legacy 5.1 audio hence upgrades to the amp & speakers is not needed to get a huge improvement in aq .

getting a new player along with a pre/pro is not that big of hassle.

new hardware plays legacy software so you have an option of reusing the most expensive part.

Thanks for the response, but that's not the question. Are you or is someone you know employing the full technical specification that HDM permits? Do you have 1080P playing with 7.1 channels blaring? If so, how and if not, why not?

I think that HDM is overkill to J6P as of now. But it is just matter of time (actually money) that most J6P will have suitable gears to enjoy the full potentials of HDM. It will take about 5 years or more before such full-HDM gears will be affordable to most people.

But current HDM standard (Blu-ray/HD-DVD) will last at least 10 years or more before next-generation HDM will emerge. I even suspects that CD and HDM will be LAST physical media in long history of physical music/video media. So current HDM standard should be better to be prepared for long, very long future life time even though most current people are not properly prepared to enjoy its full potentials.

After 5 years (2012), HDM player, 60-70 inch Full-HD flat-panel HDTV, 7.1 ch sound system will become affordable to most people (like current cheap DVD and sub-$1000 TV's). Then HDM will not be overkill anymore by then.
.

1080p with 5.1 lossless (conversion to 7.1 is not possible due to space constraints)

I don't agree that you need a large 1080p display and a 7.1 audio system to benefit from HD. I have a 720p projector and a nice 5.1 setup and can certainly appreciate the lossless audio and the much improved video just fine. 7.1 is not necessary, the unused channels are folded into the existing surrounds and the lossless audio will sound fantastic on any good 5.1 setup.

BR/HD DVD may not be fully utilized in all setups, but that does not mean they offer no benefit (quite the contrary). So there is no reason remove features or decrease quality. People with more modest setups will experience the best audio and video they ever have and as the upgrade the experience will only improve.

I don't agree that you need a large 1080p display and a 7.1 audio system to benefit from HD. I have a 720p projector and a nice 5.1 setup and can certainly appreciate the lossless audio and the much improved video just fine. 7.1 is not necessary, the unused channels are folded into the existing surrounds and the lossless audio will sound fantastic on any good 5.1 setup.

BR/HD DVD may not be fully utilized in all setups, but that does not mean they offer no benefit (quite the contrary). So there is no reason remove features or decrease quality. People with more modest setups will experience the best audio and video they ever have and as the upgrade the experience will only improve.


I agree with what you are saying in terms of improvement, but that wasn't my question or point. My question is based upon what all BestBuy and CircuitCity and Fry's guys have in their training manual to sell HDM. According to folks I know at each of this places, the standard line is 1080P, largest display possible, and 7.1 channels (better than 5.1 since more speakers) to hear all of the detail. I'm not questioning whether the standard is good, bad or indifferent.

What I am questioning is how many people employ the full technical specification? Or know people that do? Further, why did they and how or why not and why? My hope is that some A/V industry guys read this and say, maybe we should reevaluate our approach, how can we do things better? I'm questioning this technology of uselessness. Your statement regarding 7.1 not being necessary proves my point. I am not saying there's no benefit so much as I wondering WHO is able to fully take advantage of all the benefits of HDM's full technical specification?

It doesn't matter if it's overkill to them. Heck, many aren't even taking advantage of anamorphic enhancement or surround sound on DVD now. Or they're doing something to make the picture worse, like stretching to fill a widescreen TV.

It also doesn't matter if some who have HDM don't take full advantage of it. Even with 720p there's still a noticeable improvement, and those of us who have 720p still appreciate that the better quality is there for when we can use it.

If you want to know why people don't take full advantage of it, that usually comes down to money. Some just can't afford it or don't want to pay current prices. It's not as if people are willingly buying less for the same amount of money. Then you have some who happened to buy their gear before a technological change (like a 1080i CRT or a receiver without HDMI) and don't want to buy a new component right now.

I think that HDM is overkill to J6P as of now. But it is just matter of time (actually money) that most J6P will have suitable gears to enjoy the full potentials of HDM. It will take about 5 years or more before such full-HDM gears will be affordable to most people.

But current HDM standard (Blu-ray/HD-DVD) will last at least 10 years or more before next-generation HDM will emerge. I even suspects that CD and HDM will be LAST physical media in long history of physical music/video media. So current HDM standard should be better to be prepared for long, very long future life time even though most current people are not properly prepared to enjoy its full potentials.

After 5 years (2012), HDM player, 60-70 inch Full-HD flat-panel HDTV, 7.1 ch sound system will become affordable to most people (like current cheap DVD and sub-$1000 TV's). Then HDM will not be overkill anymore by then.
.

Agree, and do you want to continue to invest in a "good" format (DVD) now and be futher in the hole down the line when the exceptional setups we have today are common in 5 years. I think better than 1080p will be a long time coming, even if we do get "upscalling" HDTV's before then.

It is for J6P, but not for me. My HT is in a room about 12 feet wide by 30 feet long. My screen is 12 feet wide (~150" diagonal) lit by Panasonic PT-AE2000U 1080P24 projector. I have 5 HD sources (PS3 for Blu-ray, XA2 for HD DVD, FIOS HD for cable, HTPC, JVC D-VHS with PS3, XA2, and HTPC running at 1080P24 and FIOS and D-VHS running at 1080i). Sound comes courtesy of Denon AVR-3808CI 7.1 receiver through Klipsch reference speakers in 7.1 layout. I am spell bound every night I see or hear something with this setup.

I have a 106" screen, 1080p (24fps capable) 7.1 Channel Surround, and I am REALLY able to notice differences in sound and PQ. As such, I support and always prefer to watch HD content. However, my GF(who loves movies), while able to pick out picture differences when I point them out to her, does not care, and is just as happy to watch movies in the bedroom on a 37" LCD with 2.1 sound *SOB*. Of my friends, only 3 or 4 actually have "good" systems, being 55" or larger, 720p or 1080i, and at most 5.1 Channel surround, but nobody else running FULL . In talking with many of my friends, they are quite happy with what they have, and if they really want a "better experience" they go to the theater, or just bug me to come watch it at my house. When I ask them why they don't upgrade, they say "I don't have the room", "I don't have the money", "I don't care enough". In many cases, even if the price is affordable, they don't want a big TV in the house, so even as prices drop, people don't all want theaters at home.

So, I'd have to say "YES", HD media, and equipment is overkill for J6P. This goes for this point in time, and into the future as well.

Are current HDM A/V standard overkill for J6P?


Hi! J6P chimng in here. :)

Well, not really.

I find the interest (I'd say obsession!) with craming ever more and more speakers into the living room is totally beyond J6P's interest. And don't even START about what Mrs. 6P thinks about it.

Yes, I am getting older and my ears are not what they used to be, but, I did have a 5 speaker surround set up once . . . and it did not provide much "bang for the buck." I was younger then too and STILL found it actually distracting. Seems I don't really like those sounds coming at me from behind. Go figure! Yes, I know theatres do it that way.

So, when you mention 7.1 I roll my eyes and say "really!" Just NOT interested.

Now, a bigger, a sharper picture, with more detail that I can sit closer to. . . . THAT still grabs me. The sound I get from two decent front speakers is plenty good enough for me . . . and I don't need no steenkin' subwoofer.

So, I'll NEVER use the full HDM standard.

Uhhh, isn't the most modern, up to date, and fully capable version of anything the very definition of "overkill for J6P?" The way I understand it, the way you get to be J6P is by settling for the average, middle of the road, inexpensive solution. This thread is like asking "Is a $400 bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild overkill for J6P?" - Any answer is moot because the answer is predetermined by the question.

Uhhh, isn't the most modern, up to date, and fully capable version of anything the very definition of "overkill for J6P?" The way I understand it, the way you get to be J6P is by settling for the average, middle of the road, inexpensive solution. This thread is like asking "Is a $400 bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild overkill for J6P?" - Any answer is moot because the answer is predetermined by the question.

depends what vintage :)

Uhhh, isn't the most modern, up to date, and fully capable version of anything the very definition of "overkill for J6P?" The way I understand it, the way you get to be J6P is by settling for the average, middle of the road, inexpensive solution. This thread is like asking "Is a $400 bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild overkill for J6P?" - Any answer is moot because the answer is predetermined by the question.

Thing is J6P is snapping up pricey gadgets like ipods and iphones at a rapid rate..are there cheaper solutions? Sure...but they want their ipods/iphones and cell phones just like them.

depends what vintage :)

J6P calls it the "Born On Date" (TM Anheiser-Busch Ltd.). ;)

i think j6p has been under estimated by a lot of people judging from a rise in sales
of electronics period.

Thing is J6P is snapping up pricey gadgets like ipods and iphones at a rapid rate..are there cheaper solutions? Sure...but they want their ipods/iphones and cell phones just like them.

Those are status symbols. J6P can't show off his HT system at the daycare/gym/mall/bar, and he doesn't see everyone else's HT there to compare with either. Plus the ubiquitousness of advertising for these items have elevated them beyond just boutique status. You don't see many HT ads on MTV or Lifetime, but iPods and cellphone ads are everywhere.

Uhhh, isn't the most modern, up to date, and fully capable version of anything the very definition of "overkill for J6P?" The way I understand it, the way you get to be J6P is by settling for the average, middle of the road, inexpensive solution. This thread is like asking "Is a $400 bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild overkill for J6P?" - Any answer is moot because the answer is predetermined by the question.

This is a good point, but the original poster is (IMO) trying to get opinions on whether the studios and manufacturers really have a market at all. If they are touting HDM as the next big thing, but J6P does not care, then who are they kidding, HDM will just be a niche market. And using your wine analogy, most people might take a $400 bottle of wine if you sold it to them for $40, but many people WON'T put in a big screen/speaker system, even if it was also affordable, so HDM is completely wasted on them, at any price.

Those are status symbols. J6P can't show off his HT system at the daycare/gym/mall/bar, and he doesn't see everyone else's HT there to compare with either.

But it goes to show that J6P will spend big $$ if he feels it will make something in his life better. HDM tends to do this less than the new Ipod/IPhone or what ever else it is they feel they need to have.

BTW, I show off my FP theater all the time to friends and family members. They all love it, but wouldn't pay for it themselves. They are quite happy living in their 27" CRT SD-TV ways, with only a few upgrading in the past 6months to HDTV's with SD-TV hooked up to it and 5.1 HTiB's with all 5 speakers up front and the sub disconnected cuz it made too much "noise." However they all have their $400 dollar Ipod.

Josh

So my question is, if you have an HDM format of any kind (downloads, cable VOD, BR, HDDVD), do you fully utilize the spec? Are you watching in 1080P on a screen larger than 42 inches listening to the 7.1 channel Dolby True HD or DTS-HD MA audio track in a room which is large enough to be properly configured to suggested THX spec or a similar? Do you know any folks beyond the hardcore AVS member embracing all of HDM's tech?

Yes to all that.

And all great trends in electronics start as limited value, niche market toys for the people who care and can afford it. The first plasma I ever installed was a 42" $18k Sony that looked like trash. Now here we are with $2500 50" Kuros 10 years later.

Broadcast HD television took off nicely and that required early adopters to shell out far more for the price of admission than early adpoters of HD discs ever did or ever will. Now look at HDTV, it's everywhere. So to think that HDM won't take off because "J6P" can't afford surround sound and a decent display is silly.

This is a good point, but the original poster is (IMO) trying to get opinions on whether the studios and manufacturers really have a market at all. If they are touting HDM as the next big thing, but J6P does not care, then who are they kidding, HDM will just be a niche market. And using your wine analogy, most people might take a $400 bottle of wine if you sold it to them for $40, but many people WON'T put in a big screen/speaker system, even if it was also affordable, so HDM is completely wasted on them, at any price.

Go back 10-11 years and you heard the same arguments for VHS vs. DVD. Then again, you heard the same arguments for VHS vs. Laserdisk. Only time will tell what course HDM will take and not one of us can predict the outcome. Just as many predicted the "niche status" of DVD as predicted the overwhelming success (although you won't see those numbers in hindsight today ;)).

But it goes to show that J6P will spend big $$ if he feels it will make something in his life better. HDM tends to do this less than the new Ipod/IPhone or what ever else it is they feel they need to have.

BTW, I show off my FP theater all the time to friends and family members. They all love it, but wouldn't pay for it themselves. They are quite happy living in their 27" CRT SD-TV ways, with only a few upgrading in the past 6months to HDTV's with SD-TV hooked up to it and 5.1 HTiB's with all 5 speakers up front and the sub disconnected cuz it made too much "noise." However they all have their $400 dollar Ipod.

Josh

Oh, I agree with you. I'm just saying that the OP is asking a loaded question. He's asking if cutting edge item 'X' is "overkill for J6P", when the very definition of "cutting edge" is anathema to J6P. It's a question with only one pre-determined answer, from which you can draw exactly zero conclusions.

No offense to the O/P but what would you expect the people at BB, CC, Fry's etc. to say? They sell big screen (the bigger the better) speakers, electronics, etc.. I have a 720P 62" DLP and a 5.1 surround and I will improve on these pieces as money allows but "NO WAY" am I getting less than very satisfying AQ and PQ. I also have a 1080P 40" Samsung hooked up to a HTIB that serves my wife just fine. I just don't think you can base this type of question on what the people at BB, CC and others say you must have.

Scott

I have the works with THX 7.1 etc etc etc.

So my HD from HD DVD, Blu Ray, and Series 3 Tivo Over the Air with antennae, are served into a hd audio decoding receiver and fed to a 57 inch 1080p DLP, as well as seven fine Klipsch speakers and a huge IB subwoofer equalized and powered by a pro amp.

I want it all and use it all.

Now if Panny would just get on the ball and fix the soft pq and the LFE bug in my Blu player then it too could shine like the other components. I got it for nothing so I guess I got what I paid for. XA2 (3 of those) and Series 3 Tivos (3 of those also) are great pieces of HD equipment. Pio 94 is superb receiver and Mitsu WD57831 I wouldn't trade for any number of Plasma or LCD displays. And when you say Klipsch, please say a word of thanks to Paul.

Uhhh, isn't the most modern, up to date, and fully capable version of anything the very definition of "overkill for J6P?" The way I understand it, the way you get to be J6P is by settling for the average, middle of the road, inexpensive solution. This thread is like asking "Is a $400 bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild overkill for J6P?" - Any answer is moot because the answer is predetermined by the question.

Yep. Why does this matter? Do you use the full capabilties of your home computer? Your cell phone? Your car? Of course not. This notion that its overkill if someone doesn't use every feature strikes me as silly. If someone wants to hook up a Blu-Ray to a 40" 720p LCD with no receiver, who am I to say they are doing something wrong?

I fully consider myself J6P. All of my family as well. As a matter of fact, while I've trolled these forums for a couple of months now only because I had a problem with my reciever and googled a solution on it. I saw several threads that I found interesting and have visited to browse through threads since then. I did not bother to register before because the little amount of knowledge I have related to AV equipment is almost entirely confined to my own components - and even that probably pales in comparison to what most people here know. I would say if there is any difference between me and your standard J6P it is that I am curious. If there is a question I don't know the answer to I go out of my way to find out.

That being said, let me first answer the question you asked and then answer the real question that I think you avoided. I have a 52" 1080i CRT that I bought a few years ago (I got a really good deal on it after an older TV had died and I needed something new). After purchasing the television, I quickly realized that the picture quality was not what I expected. I did some research, and found out that the TV I had was actually fairly solid - but that I needed a "reciever". Yes, I did not know what a reciever was up to that point. I bought a cheap $200 Sony reciever that had 7.1 surround sound. Bought a cheap set of 7.1 speakers, and set everything up. My picture was better, the sound was "great" to me, and I was happy for about 2 years. Then I got a game console and started seeing Blu Ray disks. I once again noticed that things did not look like they should. Once again, internet searches ensued.

That brings us to the current situation. I now have a Denon 2308ci reciever, a PS3 that is used for both Blu Ray and gaimng, my 52" television, a better set of 5.1 speakers (I found out through experimentation that while my room was big enough for 7.1, it is shaped such that the extra speakers only make the sound muddy), and even a video calibration CD. So am I using 100% of the featured specs? Nope - I am not.

That being said, I would not have purchased a single piece of the equipment I did if it did not exceed my needs. Note that just meeting them is not good enough. I am not buying a TV to replace in a couple of years. I need something that will last a while. So to me, if the spec is low enough that I can meet it with my equipment, it is worthless to me as a consumer.

I think you will find that most J6P are just like I am. Upgrades are generally caused not by a "want" but by a "need". When something needs to be replaced, we go looking. You will also find that most do not want what they buy to be "sufficient" for what they need. We want it to exceed our needs so that it can expand with us in the years we will keep it. With the internet, a few searches can give even the most uninformed an opinion on newer tech. That is both a plus and a minus. The information we need to make an educated decision is out there. So is a lot of crap. People like myself can have a hard time sifting through it all - especially when we need to make a purchase quickly to replace a vital component.

My family is all basically the same as I am. They are all in various stages of starting to transition to the HD crowd. One just bought a 42" television and is realizing he needs HD. A couple just had older televisions die and are looking for new ones. They now come to me for opinions. They all want to buy equipment that not only meets but exceeds their current needs so that it will last for a long time. I think you'll find the same thing happens with most people that would be classified as J6P.

So does J6P use 100% of current standards? No. If they did, then current standards would be obsolete.

Good post, Xalion. Welcome.

I basically agree with you and and yet I am probably more advanced than J6P when it comes to HT. Personally, I like to do upgrades when I get big impact right away, not creeping up incrementally with 3 or 4 smaller improvements. To get my big bang out of the full specs, not only do I have to upgrade the DVD player but I'd have to upgrade my proj to 1080p, my A/V Receiver to handle HDMI and new audio codecs (or inputs as the case may be), cabling to projector and possibly my DIY screen.

Yes, yes, I know I don't have to do all that to see/hear improvement but like I wrote, I like large improvements all the way around. I had an A2 but that one upgrade, while significant, just didn't give me the impact I wanted. BTW, movies that interest me and take advantage of the upgrades are also part of the equation - and there are not enough of those yet for me. It's basically a matter of the market maturing for me, and probably J6P.

i said something like this in another post that those old analog tv's will be failing and
people will go shopping for a new one and most likely get an hd tv since that is what
occupies the shelves now.once you have the set the want for more hd gets addictive.

Uhhh, isn't the most modern, up to date, and fully capable version of anything the very definition of "overkill for J6P?" The way I understand it, the way you get to be J6P is by settling for the average, middle of the road, inexpensive solution. This thread is like asking "Is a $400 bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild overkill for J6P?" - Any answer is moot because the answer is predetermined by the question.

Good point. But I am asking not if people don't employ the standard now...I am asking can they or could they? I am trying to get the same sense on the HDM feedback as the question that was asked regarding why people didn't have BR or HDDVD players. You see, there are reasons behind what motivates people to take or not take action. Folks will buy a $600 iPhone, but they have a Sony 5.1 dream system attched to a PS3 and 32 inch 1080i tv. If you see where I am taking this, I am trying to get an understanding or hopefully elucidate what I see as a shortcoming in the way CE's market and push the HDM standard.

My suspicion is that many can be impressed by significantly better video but they will only be slightly impressed by better audio, and in any event, many may like what they see and hear but not have the room, time or money to employ the standard. Some might decide, I would rather buy movie tickets than to have to go to the expense and hassle of retrofitting my house for proper surround, light control to watch tv, etc.

Good post, Xalion. Welcome.

x2

And thanks for the clarification

How is HD overkill?

There are millions of 37" and 42" inch LCDs and Plasmas which all would benefit greatly with a HD DVD player.

Maybe the 7.1 Lossless sound is overkill, sure.

But High Definition is definitely not overkill, in fact it is now almost mandatory.

At least in my house.

How is HD overkill?

There are millions of 37" and 42" inch LCDs and Plasmas which all would benefit greatly with a HD DVD player.

Maybe the 7.1 Lossless sound is overkill, sure.

But High Definition is definitely not overkill, in fact it is now almost mandatory.

At least in my house.

I completely agree. If someone brings a movie over and its not Blu or HD I groan and try to decide if it would be considered obnoxious to go rent the HDM at my BB or Hollywood. Generally it would be and I sit in the corner with my arms crossed pouting.

But this isn't about us sick AVS folks. This is about a much bigger market. This is about our friends and family that are still using composite video cabling. My uncle who actually has a nice 42" LCD but has a VCR connected to it and refuses to get a DVR. These are people that saw the benefits of DVD but can't figure out what the big deal is about HD. After all, DVD is pretty good. The reason LCDs and Plasmas have become popular is that they look good and don't take up any space. This is a long ways from the 250+ lb Sony Wegas that were rampant just a few years ago. Don't kid yourselves; they aren't popular because the PQ is any better; after all 95% couldn't tell the difference between 720 and 1080 from their seating positions. Which is why Blu is going to have a problem garnering a wide audience and why I had initially supported HD. It was the natural progression: An update in existing technology using the same equipment. I ove my HD and got on the Blu train but haven't been impressed yet. Maybe a big BOGO would get me there ;)

hehe I have a 52 inch dlp I watch at 1080i and the tv speakers :D

technology is a good thing people can fall in line with it or be trampled on by it.

J6P uses his TV speakers. A few J6Ps use less expensive HTiBs.

J6P has a 720p big screen TV and sees no reason to swap it for a 1080p version when most is of viewing is 720p or less (FOX, ABC, ESPN, all SD channels, SD DVDs, etc).

J6P needs a kick in his Stick and Berries. :D

I always wanted to be on the cutting edge, but could never afford/justify it. Now that I'm making more money in my somewhat older age, I've found that I want more and more. But I've always been the type to research the crap out of anything I'm about to buy, from Toasters to HDTV' to Cars. It might be a little sick, but oh well.

We humans are always trying to keep up with the Jones's, and as more and more HD products get out into the wild, the more J6P will want to out do their neighbor.

I'm always puzzled about the debates about what the illusive imaginary consumer thinks. We have decent numbers about what they buy and they seem to be buying HDTVs, and, at a slower rate, HDM. Let's look at the numbers and see what they tell us.

it reminds me when a mag about 10years ago stated that hdtv would never go over
and would be niche status only,kinda like the fortune tellers about hdm today.

The idea that SD can survive indefinitely is absurd. The conversion may not come as soon as we'd like, and it may turn out not to be on those red or blu discs we love, but I don't expect we'll still be seeing SD-DVDs being sold (except on ebay) in ten years.

I think we're missing the point here. I don't think most people buy home theater components to only watch movies. They buy them to watch TV programming. So the importance of each component is in relation to this main function.

I am and work with engineers. All of them are very sophisticated in their knowledge about AV technology, to the point that a few of them have built their own media center machines. The most important component to them is the TV. Invariably, each has either a plasma or an LCD TV, at least 40" (mine is a 47" 1080P). The next important component is a good, not necessarily great sound system, usually a 5.1 system. I have a Sony STR-DG800, small Cambridge Soundworks speakers / subwoofer. My friends have the equivalent, either more or less expensive depending on where they bought them. Some went with Costco / BJ's, others with Tweeter, Cambridge Soundworks... So no huge spending on the sound system. For me, I wanted good sound for broadcast TV, for most of them, they wanted that, but especially for the XBox 360s running HALO. Few of them have the HD DVD drive, and don't spend money on HDM if they do. They play games or watch TV.

Most have good to very good broadcast setups from FIOS (like mine), Comcast or DirectTv - all HD. All have a DVD player or use the DVD drive in the MediaCenter PC. All use mostly HD VOD or SD VOD for most of their movies, or subscription cable services (HBO, Cinemax, etc.).

The main reason for buying an advanced setup? Sports. Watching baseball, football, basketball and hockey in HD is the main draw. I talk to them about HDM, which they know about, but they really don't care. They play games, or watch broadcast.

The thing that would excite them the most if implemented? HD Soccer.

So do they use the specs? They do use 1080i broadcasts preferentially, love the sound even if not the best, don't spend a lot of time watching a movie, but are satisfied with upscaled DVD. They all have 5.1 systems, but think 7.1 is useless unless supported by sports broadcasts or gaming.

Most guys I know think HD = great sports on tv.

I do use most of the spec (I think): 1080P 47" LCD, HD-A35 HD DVD player (just bought), Sony 5.1 receiver, Cambridge Soundworks 5.1 speakers, FIOS TV. But then I love movies.

I think we're missing the point here. I don't think most people buy home theater components to only watch movies. They buy them to watch TV programming. So the importance of each component is in relation to this main function.

I am and work with engineers. All of them are very sophisticated in their knowledge about AV technology, to the point that a few of them have built their own media center machines. The most important component to them is the TV. Invariably, each has either a plasma or an LCD TV, at least 40" (mine is a 47" 1080P). The next important component is a good, not necessarily great sound system, usually a 5.1 system. I have a Sony STR-DG800, small Cambridge Soundworks speakers / subwoofer. My friends have the equivalent, either more or less expensive depending on where they bought them. Some went with Costco / BJ's, others with Tweeter, Cambridge Soundworks... So no huge spending on the sound system. For me, I wanted good sound for broadcast TV, for most of them, they wanted that, but especially for the XBox 360s running HALO. Few of them have the HD DVD drive, and don't spend money on HDM if they do. They play games or watch TV.

Most have good to very good broadcast setups from FIOS (like mine), Comcast or DirectTv - all HD. All have a DVD player or use the DVD drive in the MediaCenter PC. All use mostly HD VOD or SD VOD for most of their movies, or subscription cable services (HBO, Cinemax, etc.).

The main reason for buying an advanced setup? Sports. Watching baseball, football, basketball and hockey in HD is the main draw. I talk to them about HDM, which they know about, but they really don't care. They play games, or watch broadcast.

The thing that would excite them the most if implemented? HD Soccer.

So do they use the specs? They do use 1080i broadcasts preferentially, love the sound even if not the best, don't spend a lot of time watching a movie, but are satisfied with upscaled DVD. They all have 5.1 systems, but think 7.1 is useless unless supported by sports broadcasts or gaming.

Most guys I know think HD = great sports on tv.

add musical performances to the list watching and listening adds to the senses.

add musical performances to the list watching and listening adds to the senses.

Completely agree here. Jazz performances on PBS, Opera, MTV HD, etc.

I have my HT set up in a 15 x 10 loft in my condo. I'm running a 5.1 set-up through an HDMI-capable receiver to a 46" LCD 1080p/24. I have both HD platforms.

I think my display is just about right for my room, although that chart (http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html) tells a different story with my 13' viewing distance. My Denon receiver, Sonus Faber speakers, and Velodyne sub blow the roof off the place; 7.1 would be ridiculous overkill, IMHO.

I work in a Fortune 100 company. I and my peers all enjoy a generous salary. Here is the difference: I am single, they are married with children. Not a single friend or colleague with whom I have shared my enthusiasm has a similar set-up. The thought of an entire room dedicated to HT is beyond their comprehension. They are involved with kids, soccer, mini-vans, girl scout cookie sales, etc, etc. A wide screen TV? Sure. 6-8 speakers and a receiver to play movies on? No thanks. HD DVD and Blu-ray? What's that?? DVD is fine. It plays in the DVD player in the LR, in the bedroom, kitchen, and mini van.

Of course it is overkill for J6P. That is why only us crazies are buying into it. We just need more crazies:D

well apparently we outnumber j6p or we would all be watching black and white
tv and listening to 8-track tapes.

On 7.1, I would not worry about that part of the equation. Interest for that has come and gone. There is hardly if any content being produced for 7.1 presentation. So if you have a 5.1 system, you already have the number of channels you need to enjoy what is coming to you....

On 7.1, I would not worry about that part of the equation. Interest for that has come and gone. There is hardly if any content being produced for 7.1 presentation. So if you have a 5.1 system, you already have the number of channels you need to enjoy what is coming to you....

I agree,7.1 is like what "Quadraphonic" was in the 70's.Sure it was neat but how many albums used it?
I also think TrueHD and DTS-HD are overhyped as well,very few titles use this audio.
I know...call me a heretic...but I prefer better PQ.
We members on AVS are here because we like cutting edge technology and we buy the best AV equipment we can afford,J6P only cares about price and is happy to watch SD programming on his HDTV.

I think 7.1 may gradually increase in presence though. It may not become a standard for almost every movie like 5.1, but New Line and Lionsgate are remixing titles for 7.1. In time, the bigger studios may adopt it, if only for selected titles. Disney is doing a 7.1 track for Sleeping Beauty.

the problem with 7.1 is fitment in most peoples rooms and generally only a handful
of movies and its been out for years.

Yes current HDM standards are overkill, however they serve as product differentiation from the TV and VOD space. Don't look for $1,200+ 1080P HDTVs to lead to mass market acceptance (HDTV or HDM). Will DTS-MA be relevant in 3 years (very little seems to use it).

i am essentially a J6P (6 pack of bottled water though). As for the question at hand - no i don't use any of these features (just the increased resolution). The extra features are good for some, it's just that i can't justify the cost at the curent time (too much cost, not enough benefit). The reason i got the HDM player i did (HD-A2) was that i didn't want to pay a premium for 1080P i was not going to use (my only regret was paying $200 instead of $100). Though i guess there is no harm in seeing at what cost it would be worth it (time to play around in Excel sometime). 1080P is overkill for me (considering i am using my HDTV primarly to play video games - XBOX 360 games mostly made for the 720P resolution anyway, watching regular TV shows not available in HD QAM, watching DVDs - mostly 4:3 TV on DVD, and watching HD DVD), but my eyes aren't exactly great. After a while, "pillar box" is less noticable (much like WS on a 4:3 TV). The 1080i/720P broadcasts look good enough for me. i use the TV speakers (and only have a 26" 768P HDTV). Maybe someday i'll get a receiver like the Onkyo 705 (my high end), but i can't currently justify the price. Then again, i am hampered by available space and less disposable income than i would like. Of course i wanted HDM to repace the old and ugly discs (1980/90s that do not look great on an HDTV, some almost horrific), not the new and shiny movies. If i had the money and space, though i would be going for a 56"+ LED DLP and a midling surround sound system.

No they are not overkill. We need higher standards, resolutions, frame rates, less compression, more colours and everything

1080i 6.1 Lossy, but good gear.

Brother-in-law has the works, but I don't think he would had he not been exposed to it at my house. I got to pick out his entire system, which was fun, but I cannot justify the upgrade of my audio gear at this point. I do plan to when there is an AVR from a brand I trust with the right price/specs/interface.

No they are not overkill. We need higher standards, resolutions, frame rates, less compression, more colours and everything

"We" meaning you and a small niche of over the top A/V enthusiast type of folks?...because as you know the average viewer doesn't see any need nor cares one bit about any of those things.

"We" meaning you and a small niche of over the top A/V enthusiast type of folks?...because as you know the average viewer doesn't see any need nor cares one bit about any of those things.
Not really. If we had ultra high resolutions, frame rates, colours palettes, zero compression artefacts, more sound channels (and no lag on LCDs or banding or poor black levels etc.) everything... that were so ultra amazing even to the average person then they'd buy into it. They should make everything so amazing (no compression artefacts/noise/grain) and ultra great that they couldn't fail to be impressed (for example, why would an average person buy a concert on high def when it's at a slow frame rate of 24hz when they can get a 50 or 60hz version on standard def? It may be better resolution but a poorer unreal frame rate)

sold and installed more equipment due to the keep up with the jones factor than
anything. that bug bites everyone at one time or another for home,auto and luxuries
take your pick.

sold and installed more equipment due to the keep up with the jones factor than
anything. that bug bites everyone at one time or another for home,auto and luxuries
take your pick.

I agree...there is a LOT of that going on these days as far as getting the latest/greatest flat panels...almost EVERYONE wants one...the bug has spread like wildwire where I work...almost everyone talks about getting one...heck many want TWO or more already!

However not ONE SOUL has worried about getting into hi-def DVD..not ONE person has asked about it or bragged that they got HD or Blu....people want their flat panels and HD DVR's..PERIOD...that is where their love ends for hi-def. HDM isn't even on their radars....perhaps when HD DVD finally dies off and Blu goes into cheap player/software mode, THEN we may see a few non-AVS types talk about owning HDM.

Not really. If we had ultra high resolutions, frame rates, colours palettes, zero compression artefacts, more sound channels (and no lag on LCDs or banding or poor black levels etc.) everything... that were so ultra amazing even to the average person then they'd buy into it. They should make everything so amazing (no compression artefacts/noise/grain) and ultra great that they couldn't fail to be impressed (for example, why would an average person buy a concert on high def when it's at a slow frame rate of 24hz when they can get a 50 or 60hz version on standard def? It may be better resolution but a poorer unreal frame rate)


Dude you are taking it WAY WAY too deep....average people don't KNOW nor do they CARE about ANY of the hz/frame rate gobbly-goop you are speaking about.

the VAST majority of peeps i know, when they wanna watch tv, unless its a football game, they watch to RELAX. and not ef' around w the tech of their tv sets.

pretty hard to do with many hi def players, displays, all the gear, cables, etc sometimes.

hdm has a 'hard row to hoe', imo, be4 the masses accept it.

J6P uses his TV speakers. A few J6Ps use less expensive HTiBs.

J6P has a 720p big screen TV and sees no reason to swap it for a 1080p version when most is of viewing is 720p or less (FOX, ABC, ESPN, all SD channels, SD DVDs, etc).

the vast majority of j6p'ers are still watching their 27" crts and using vhs or a dvd player w composite cables and the tv spkrs. i only know 1 other family that has an hdtv.

of course, this is vermont. the $ many elsewhere might spend on hd anything maybe has to go for filling up oil tanks so their furnaces can keep their houses warm in the winter. and so on and so forth.
etc.

I agree...there is a LOT of that going on these days as far as getting the latest/greatest flat panels...almost EVERYONE wants one...the bug has spread like wildwire where I work...almost everyone talks about getting one...heck many want TWO or more already!

However not ONE SOUL has worried about getting into hi-def DVD..not ONE person has asked about it or bragged that they got HD or Blu....people want their flat panels and HD DVR's..PERIOD...that is where their love ends for hi-def. HDM isn't even on their radars....perhaps when HD DVD finally dies off and Blu goes into cheap player/software mode, THEN we may see a few non-AVS types talk about owning HDM.

I believe you, but it continues to confound me that people seem to want HD for TV but not packaged media.

I believe you, but it continues to confound me that people seem to want HD for TV but not packaged media.

It doesn't really confound me...

People have spent years pretty much collecting all of their favorite movies..some may have a few movies, others may have hundreds...aside from the fact that they are content with the look of these on their big shiny new HDTV...those movies costs them some hard earned $$$$$ and to them the idea of having to replace some or all of those movies is not even an option..ESPECIALLY at the ridiculous price of HDM media...

Oh and of course it goes without saying (almost) that they don't want to own two/four/six players to enjoy the movies....oh sure they can upconvert..WE know that, but they don't think of hi-def DVD players as "awesome upconverters" like techno geeks on the web. They see HDM as yet ANOTHER investment they would have to make when they know they can just enjoy what they have with their new "upconverts to 1080i" dvd player they got last month at WM.

ALL these folks want is the "BIG" widescreen "movie-like" flat panel and their HD package their cable or sat provider offers them...HDM on disc isn't even on their radars right now.

I'm sure back in the day many LD people said the same things.."WHY DON'T THESE PEOPLE WANT THE BEST VIDEO/AUDIO!!!??"...in the end, the general public back then ignored LD just like they are right now...now we're goin into what, our THIRD year of HDM on disc with next to no acceptance by the average Joe....not a good sign.

Only saving grace perhaps is if HD DVD just hurries up and dies off and Blu can go into major marketing mode to sway folks over ..BUT they need to sell the stuff dirt cheap like HD DVD is trying to do....sadly, that might happen fast enough.

People have spent years pretty much collecting all of their favorite movies..some may have a few movies, others may have hundreds...aside from the fact that they are content with the look of these on their big shiny new HDTV...those movies costs them some hard earned $$$$$ and to them the idea of having to replace some or all of those movies is not even an option..ESPECIALLY at the ridiculous price of HDM media...

Hey I'm an old J6P sort of a geek if that makes any sense. Worked hard, still working (can't afford to retire) 3 PCs, download PC software and install my own whether it's antivirus or firewalls etc. I got me an Toshiba 42HL167, Toshiba HD-A35, Yamaha YSP-800 Sound Bar, Yamaha YST-100 Sub, and other stuff (maybe that's why I can't retire) But I digress, point is when you buy a new HD player and out of the box it informs you to upgrade firmware before it is usable. Ok you get that done and in order to hunt up affordable HD movies you have to spend hours trying to find a deal on line you can afford. They ship DVD disc home and it does not want to play correctly and that's Blu-Ray or HD. This isn't a complaint from me, It's a statement of the way things are now. I believe just cause I'm crazy does not mean anybody else has to be. Do you think this could be part of the big picture problem. Am I making any sense. I'm getting ready to jump onto a PS3 and turn purple. Told you I was crazy.

it reminds me when a mag about 10years ago stated that hdtv would never go over and would be niche status only,kinda like the fortune tellers about hdm today.
And they would probably have been right, if flat panel displays hadn't come along. As evident by the number of people watching SD on their HDTVs, most people buy HDTVs just because they are big and flat, and high-definition is just along for the ride.

And they would probably have been right, if flat panel displays hadn't come along. As evident by the number of people watching SD on their HDTVs, most people buy HDTVs just because they are big and flat, and high-definition is just along for the ride.

Right, so they don't want HD at all, just the big set that can be hung on a wall.

I'm glad that I got to read so many comments from so many forum members. I wish I had picked a better title, but I got in a hurry because I was frustrated with some friends and folks from work who were telling me that HDM was destined to fail.

What they said was that technology in the past had always moved in bit sized pieces, and this time too much tech was overwhelming the mass market. They cited first to HDTVs (and the changing standards), the HDMI specs, the HDM players and finally to new DTV/Cable/OTA changes. And then they said the cost was too much in outlay and inherently. I thought they were dead wrong. Instead, I was wrong.

I just assumed that people like me existed and had ready cash flow to buy a 1080P HDTV. Certainly, they had the money to buy the HD-DVD, Blu-Ray or PS3. Plus, they must have the high-speed connection for firmware updates and the HDMI receiver. I order mine all at once one month with ready cash flow from my middle of the month paycheck.

But from what I've read, even from some big time enthusiasts is much of the new spec is currently unused if not potentially wasted. Most folks seem to enjoy a flat screen with better resolution, but they don't care about reaching the pinnacle of video if it costs too much and they really don't give much thought to the improved sound....just like my friends that came over to the house one day. Impressive, but not impressive enough to go into debt or save and spend more than a commodity price. Wow, what an education....and it is all on display for the Net to see. I still hope they are wrong, but secretly, I kind of suspect most of the world is still HD-lite for a good while to come. :-(

Well, again though, many people don't or didn't take advantage of DVD. Many don't have surround sound, or if they do it's just a HTIB that may not even be set up properly. Many don't have good displays capable of taking advantage of anamorphic enhancement or progressive scan. Some are still using an RF connection (through a modulator). Yet, they still benefit from improved quality over VHS.

Even those without surround sound who have smaller 720p displays can still benefit from HDM, just not as much as those who have better equipment. Don't feel bad if you're missing out on everything it has to offer.

I chose a smaller display (42") specifically so that standard def would be tolerable. My only HD source is Dishnetwork 150/HD-DVR/HBO/Cine. I'm happy with my crappy little Koss 5.1 HTIB. Despite not being able to take full advantage of the HD package, I will still buy a HDM player. But only when all the HD titles can be played on one machine for less than $250 and the thing works right out the box. I don't spend alot on electronic gadgets but will blow a good amount on travel with the family.

Regards,
Another J6P

I was talking to a realtor who specialized in foreclosed properties the other day, and to show how crazy things have gotten, brought up J6Ps he knew who were in the process of losing there house, yet had a brand new big flatscreen TV.

I guess I have been hanging out here too long, because it didn't totally seem unreasonable to me. But then again, going from a house to an apartment, your probably going to try to lose the 7.1 set up...

I'm confused with this topic. What is overkill? Who's J6P? Are there any objective ways to define either of them?

A middle class person who doesn't enjoy movies might think anything more than a 20" CRT TV is a waste and buy a $40,000 boat. How does that have anything to do with overkill and J6P?

I'm confused with this topic. What is overkill? Who's J6P? Are there any objective ways to define either of them?

A middle class person who doesn't enjoy movies might think anything more than a 20" CRT TV is a waste and buy a $40,000 boat. How does that have anything to do with overkill and J6P?

+1

Amen to that, my friend! What a pointless thread! Seems like actually watching a HD movie is time better spent than pondering such a ridiculous question.

So I guess the learned few of this site must be considered J24P, or something???

People, enjoy YOUR hobby!!

I tend to agree with the +/-5 years mentioned, unless something else comes along. Money are being spent on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd bigger, badder flat panels. When this subsides, HDM is probably out. I think HDM came to the market too soon (to the delight of many here).

I was talking to a realtor who specialized in foreclosed properties the other day, and to show how crazy things have gotten, brought up J6Ps he knew who were in the process of losing there house, yet had a brand new big flatscreen TV.

I guess I have been hanging out here too long, because it didn't totally seem unreasonable to me. But then again, going from a house to an apartment, your probably going to try to lose the 7.1 set up...
The apartment couldn't fit that huge CRT or rear projection anymore, could it?

The apartment couldn't fit that huge CRT or rear projection anymore, could it?

Huge CRT or rear projection was already old school when subprime/ARMs hit their stride.