Original Japanese:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080206/zooma344.htm

English Translated:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs%2F20080 206%2Fzooma344.htm

Something to keep in mind is that the 149MB file has a bit rate of around 15.5Mbps which is actually a bit less than the HG10’s average so basically the raw footage of the HF10 should look slightly better than that sample. All the other samples are native.

Paulo, I'm in the process of downloading the clips, but what did you think?

They do look incredible but since I don’t have a 1920x1080 TV I’m not able to compare it properly to footage from other HD camcorders but what I will say is 30p and dual flash in a consumer camcorder is something that I wanted for a long time. Unlike 24p, 30p is easily viewed properly on all 1080p TVs.

Sony’s newest non tape camcorders are borrowing technologies from their A700 DSLR camera and the EX1 camcorder but its using a hard drive as the storage which is nothing compared to using flash and as for Panasonic, they finally has a camcorder that matches the bit rate of the Canon, offering xvYCC just like the Sony’s and it claims to have a stabilizer that’s much better than their previous camcorders which was already better than the stabilizer from Sony and Canon but sadly there is no 30p option, just 24p.

Out of all of those camcorders I think I might be inclined to choose the HF10 but the release date is so close to NAB and who knows what will be shown. One thing is for sure; my next camcorder purchase will not be tape so at least my choices will be narrowed down. Getting the money to get one is another story.

That website has become very famous not because of their reviews but because the first footage of any HD consumer camcorder that is posted online usually comes from them. I think they should put all of their video files into a folder instead of combining them because the best way to show how a camcorder performs is by showing the raw clips.

I wish there are other sites that are willing to offer videos before the camcorders gets released and I’m actually thinking about doing just that but I don’t know if these companies would be willing to let be borrow their camcorders. If not me, than at least offer it to Wolfgang Winne, that guy is the biggest contributor of them all.

They do look incredible but since I don’t have a 1920x1080 TV I’m not able to compare it properly to footage from other HD camcorders but what I will say is 30p and dual flash in a consumer camcorder is something that I wanted for a long time. Unlike 24p, 30p is easily viewed properly on all 1080p TVs.

Sony’s newest non tape camcorders are borrowing technologies from their A700 DSLR camera and the EX1 camcorder but its using a hard drive as the storage which is nothing compared to using flash and as for Panasonic, they finally has a camcorder that matches the bit rate of the Canon, offering xvYCC just like the Sony’s and it claims to have a stabilizer that’s much better than their previous camcorders which was already better than the stabilizer from Sony and Canon but sadly there is no 30p option, just 24p.

Out of all of those camcorders I think I might be inclined to choose the HF10 but the release date is so close to NAB and who knows what will be shown. One thing is for sure; my next camcorder purchase will not be tape so at least my choices will be narrowed down. Getting the money to get one is another story.

I had borrowed the Panasonic SD5 which I think is very similar to the upcoming SD9. I wasn't impressed. In fact I much prefer the footage from the HG10. The SD5 appears to have a very limited dynamic range and easily blows out highlights. What compounds this is the fact that there is no adjustment to tell the camera to consistently drop the exposure from whatever the automatic settings are.

So you're left with a camera where you can lower the exposure, but as soon as you zoom, pan or alter the scene in any way, your exposure adjustments will probably be invalid at that point.

I think it will be between the Canon and the new Sonys. Of course the new Sonys will be bigger with their hard drive but they will have a viewfinder. The lack of a viewfinder is my biggest problem with the HF10.

That website has become very famous not because of their reviews but because the first footage of any HD consumer camcorder that is posted online usually comes from them. I think they should put all of their video files into a folder instead of combining them because the best way to show how a camcorder performs is by showing the raw clips.

I wish there are other sites that are willing to offer videos before the camcorders gets released and I’m actually thinking about doing just that but I don’t know if these companies would be willing to let be borrow their camcorders. If not me, than at least offer it to Wolfgang Winne, that guy is the biggest contributor of them all.

The footage of the HF10 did look amazing at 30p. The 60i footage was very short and somehow it didn't look quite right. The only problem with that site is that downloads take forever! They must have the slowest servers in the world.

Besides, 17Mbps and 24p, there is one other notable feature that sets the SD9 apart from the SD5 is the fact that it’s smaller. By reading the releases, it seams that this camcorder should deal with exposure better.

The reason that I’d rather wait until NAB is because I feel theirs a good chance that the HSC1U will get a replacement and besides the fact that it can easily get 1080 30p and 720 60p, I’m hoping that my complaints about a focusing ring that I rant about all the time will have been put to good use.

I see that you must have made up your mind about not wanting a non tape camcorder.

Have you ever tried something like this to speed up your downloads?
http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/

Ken,

My experience with the Panny SD5 was quite different. While I agree that in auto mode, highlights can be easily blown, operating in spotlight mode nicely reduces exposure while still operating automatically. That mode will stay on during power down as well. Intelligent contrast control can help as well, but does not stay on during power down.

After figuring this out, I am quite happy. OIS is fantastic. A friend accused me of using a tripod.

Dave

Besides, 17Mbps and 24p, there is one other notable feature that sets the SD9 apart from the SD5 is the fact that it’s smaller. By reading the releases, it seams that this camcorder should deal with exposure better.

The reason that I’d rather wait until NAB is because I feel theirs a good chance that the HSC1U will get a replacement and besides the fact that it can easily get 1080 30p and 720 60p, I’m hoping that my complaints about a focusing ring that I rant about all the time will have been put to good use.

I see that you must have made up your mind about not wanting a non tape camcorder.

Have you ever tried something like this to speed up your downloads?
http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/

My download speed is actually amazingly fast with FIOS, but you're still limited by the speed of the server. That Japaneese server seems really slow.

Although I still think tape-based cams have better PQ, the HG10 really impressed me. In fact on my 60" 1080p plasma, I might have been fooled into thinking the footage was from an HV20! I also really like seeing thumbnails of each clip and having instant access to them.

Of course editing is another story and AVCHD still lags in that area. I'm hoping the new breed of AVCHD cams (HF10, HF100, Sonys etc.) will close the gap between HDV and AVCHD. The higher bitrate and new 1920X1080 resolution might just do that. We shall see.

Ken,

My experience with the Panny SD5 was quite different. While I agree that in auto mode, highlights can be easily blown, operating in spotlight mode nicely reduces exposure while still operating automatically. That mode will stay on during power down as well. Intelligent contrast control can help as well, but does not stay on during power down.

After figuring this out, I am quite happy. OIS is fantastic. A friend accused me of using a tripod.

Dave

Dave, the OIS is very good. I actually never tried the spotlight mode, but I did try the intelligent contrast control. I felt that mode created an unnatural light/dark relationship with many objects in the scene. The other thing I found was that I preferred the colors on the Canon camcorders to the SD5, but that can be a subjective thing. I've found in more than one instance that I've preferred some of the color rendition of 1 chip cams to 3-chip cams.

Sometimes the implementation of a given system is more important than the system itself.

Downloading from slow servers is one of the reasons that I use that program. Without it, my download speed from that site is around 20 to 30 KB/s, but when I use it the speeds are much higher than that. It divides up your download to speed up the process and it gets to your computer as one file.

Downloading from slow servers is one of the reasons that I use that program. Without it, my download speed from that site is around 20 to 30 KB/s, but when I use it the speeds are much higher than that. It divides up your download to speed up the process and it gets to your computer as one file.

Ah, OK, I didn't realize that. Thanks.

The footage of the HF10 did look amazing at 30p. The 60i footage was very short and somehow it didn't look quite right. The only problem with that site is that downloads take forever! They must have the slowest servers in the world.
the moderator on a uk site i use says the exact opposite he had a hg10 on test for a while and found 25i [uk] better than 25p which he was not impressed with but interlaced good.confused

Flintyplus, we're talking two different cameras. The new one, the HF10, hasn't yet been released. There are only a couple of clips on the Japaneese site that we can use to get an idea. The longer clip (about 1 1/2 minutes) is a 30p clip and has a very film-like, but smooth look to it. There is a very short, non-progressive clip that only runs a couple of seconds of a few ducks. It's this clip that looked a bit soft too me. I really don't think that clip is indicative of the results we'll see for the HF10 in this mode since the HG10 looks sharper than this at 1440X1080i.

I fully expect when we actually get to use the cam that the 1920X1080 60i setting will be sharper than the 30p. That's always been the case with similar settings in other cameras. You simply don't get that super sharp look with 24p or 30p, but you do get a look that's closer to film.

Flintyplus, we're talking two different cameras. The new one, the HF10, hasn't yet been released. There are only a couple of clips on the Japaneese site that we can use to get an idea. The longer clip (about 1 1/2 minutes) is a 30p clip and has a very film-like, but smooth look to it. There is a very short, non-progressive clip that only runs a couple of seconds of a few ducks. It's this clip that looked a bit soft too me. I really don't think that clip is indicative of the results we'll see for the HF10 in this mode since the HG10 looks sharper than this at 1440X1080i.

I fully expect when we actually get to use the cam that the 1920X1080 60i setting will be sharper than the 30p. That's always been the case with similar settings in other cameras. You simply don't get that super sharp look with 24p or 30p, but you do get a look that's closer to film.

cheers,if you are using your hv20 fixed on a tripod on say a country view[forget film look]would the picture be a bit sharper in P MODE.

cheers,if you are using your hv20 fixed on a tripod on say a country view[forget film look]would the picture be a bit sharper in P MODE.

I don't think it would be sharper in P Mode flintyplus. The tripod would do more for you than the P Mode in terms of overall picture quality (steadiness).

If you want a bit of extra sharpness, you can use the Custom setting and try bumping up the sharpness one notch. That will tend to increase noise a bit in some scenes, but you may like the tradeoff.

I don't think it would be sharper in P Mode flintyplus. The tripod would do more for you than the P Mode in terms of overall picture quality (steadiness).

If you want a bit of extra sharpness, you can use the Custom setting and try bumping up the sharpness one notch. That will tend to increase noise a bit in some scenes, but you may like the tradeoff.
the film look confuses me a bit as film differs from video color wise and i never see any difference in movement whether its a programn filmed with film or video.using a video cam in p mode does not alter its color surely.anyway back to the hv20 and the sharpness test are you saying on the same sharness setting i and p are the same or is interlaced sharper.thanks

Films undergo a lot of coloring in the post production. If you video in cine mode in HV20 and then do color corrections in post, your final product can look like film colorwise as close as you want it to.
When you shoot 24p in HV20 in bright light it could have a shutter speed of say 1/120 sec, then it can in theory be sharper than 60i at 1/120 sec because of interlacing artifact. But when there is not excessive light to be thrown away then 24p mode will have a shutter of speed of 1/48 sec or less, even the maximum 1/24 sec, you can see in those situations each frame will have a bit motion blur because of the slower shutter speed. 60i mode will have sharper image in those cases because it is capturing 60 fields (the sensor divides the image into 540 lines instead of 1080) at 1/60 sec.

the film look confuses me a bit as film differs from video color wise and i never see any difference in movement whether its a programn filmed with film or video.using a video cam in p mode does not alter its color surely.anyway back to the hv20 and the sharpness test are you saying on the same sharness setting i and p are the same or is interlaced sharper.thanks

OK, I misunderstood what you were saying. When you said "P" mode, I assumed you were talking about "program" modes, not progressive mde.

In that case yes, the interlaced mode (i) is sharper. If you look at some clips on the Canon website, they have a couple of sample shots where the same cam shoots both progressive and then interlaced. You'll see the interlaced shots are both sharper with more color saturation.

OK, I misunderstood what you were saying. When you said "P" mode, I assumed you were talking about "program" modes, not progressive mde.

In that case yes, the interlaced mode (i) is sharper. If you look at some clips on the Canon website, they have a couple of sample shots where the same cam shoots both progressive and then interlaced. You'll see the interlaced shots are both sharper with more color saturation.
sorry ken i did meen progessive and interlaced,out side on the same sharpness setting is there any noticeable resolution difference with the hv20,

Unlike 24p, 30p is easily viewed properly on all 1080p TVs.
Not exactly. It is true that until recent time most TVs sold on American market could not process 24p natively. But they can cope with 2:3 pulldown with no problem, this is the scheme that has been used to telecine 24p movies to 60i video for ages. Therefore the solution for 24p is simple: after editing encode it back to 60i with 2:3 pulldown, problem solved.

30p, on the other hand, has almost zero support in modern digital TVs. Unlike 24p, no one advertises native support for 30p. And when encoded to 60i with 2:2 pulldown, it is not recognized by majority of TVs as progressive. My 60-series Panasonic cannot process it (it can process 2:3 pulldown), my OPPO 970 cannot process it, my Toshiba HD-A2 cannot process it. In result, most TVs try to deinterlace this video assuming it is natively interlaced, either by dropping one field or by trying to apply their crude motion compensation algoriths. The result is usually sad, with halved resolution in the first case, and with distorted picture in the second.

I think that 30p in form of PsF is the best format for 60Hz system, being progressive as 24p, with higher frame rate that reduces stuttering / motion blur, and easy to edit, just drop it into 60i timeline and change "interlaced" to "progressive". But the current state of affairs is that it will not be played properly on most consumer equipment.

I hope this will change in the future. I bet that 30p support will be the marketing pitch for DVD and Blu-ray players and for TVs in the upcoming season. Since my TV does not support 2:2 pulldown, I will be looking for a Blu-ray player that is capable of it, because I want the HF camera too :-) I want progressive video with no hassles of pulldown removal, ugh! Cineform seems to solve these hurdles, for $250. Anyway, motion-wise I prefer 30p to 24p, and I don't plan to transfer my videos to 50Hz.

Sony’s newest non tape camcorders are borrowing technologies from their A700 DSLR camera and the EX1 camcorder but its using a hard drive as the storage which is nothing compared to using flash
Not true again. New HDR-SR10/11/12 can record either to HDD, or to a Memory Stick, your choice. Also, you can copy video from HDD to a Memory Stick if needed. What surprises me is that these Sonys don't have 30p. They do advertise Progressive shutter that allows recording progressive images using interlaced scanning. What the heck do they mean?

Don't forget about JVC hi-def cams, aside of their sucky video quality they record in MPEG-2 to either HDD or to an SDHC card. But choosing between the HD3 and HF, I would take the HF.

Out of all of those camcorders I think I might be inclined to choose the HF10 but the release date is so close to NAB and who knows what will be shown. One thing is for sure; my next camcorder purchase will not be tape so at least my choices will be narrowed down. Getting the money to get one is another story.
I would prefer the HF hands down if it had some sort of proper focus control, if not a ring, than a thumbwheel or a LCD wheel like on the HG10. Also, proprietary shoe and absence of viewfinder turn me off.

So here are the choices:
* HG10: does not record to a memory card, no 30p, everything else is great, including price
* SR11/12: no 24p/30p, expensive
* HF: no fine focus control, no viewfinder
* HD7: sucky OIS, subpar video for an HD cam, no 24p/30p
* HD3: no 24p/30p, no fine focus control
* HD5/HD6: gimmicky 60p output, no 24p/30p, no fine focus control, no info on OIS

So... for 30p I would choose the HF, otherwise the HG10. I am also thinking about the HV30, but it is tape-based.

Of course editing is another story and AVCHD still lags in that area. I'm hoping the new breed of AVCHD cams (HF10, HF100, Sonys etc.) will close the gap between HDV and AVCHD. The higher bitrate and new 1920X1080 resolution might just do that. We shall see.
Vegas 8 Pro works fine with AVCHD, including Canon's. But the own Sony's AVC codec can save in 1440x1080 only, so what's the point for 1920x1080 source? Hope they will release an update.

I fully expect when we actually get to use the cam that the 1920X1080 60i setting will be sharper than the 30p. That's always been the case with similar settings in other cameras. You simply don't get that super sharp look with 24p or 30p, but you do get a look that's closer to film.
IF the sensor grabs the full frame, and IF a TV/player can recognize 2:2 pulldown, the video should have twice more detail when there is movement in the scene (ok, maybe not twice, the sensor has its limitations), and without interlace artefacts.

When you shoot 24p in HV20 in bright light it could have a shutter speed of say 1/120 sec, then it can in theory be sharper than 60i at 1/120 sec because of interlacing artifact.
This is what matters...

But when there is not excessive light to be thrown away then 24p mode will have a shutter of speed of 1/48 sec or less, even the maximum 1/24 sec, you can see in those situations each frame will have a bit motion blur because of the slower shutter speed. 60i mode will have sharper image in those cases because it is capturing 60 fields (the sensor divides the image into 540 lines instead of 1080) at 1/60 sec.
...and this what does not. At the same shutter speed progressive has more detail and no artefacts, end of story. Don't use auto mode. It is another matter that faster shutter speed causes stuttering. This is where 30p works better than 24p having 25% higher frame rate.

just drop it into 60i timeline and change "interlaced" to "progressive". But the current state of affairs is that it will not be played properly on most consumer equipment.

Exporting to pure 30p is what I meant.

Exporting to pure 30p is what I meant.
You said that "30p is easily viewed properly on all 1080p TVs". This means that you need a hi-def player that can output 30p, and you need a TV that can accept 30p. I don't think that ALL TVs do that. On contrary, I think that very few currently available TVs do that.

Besides, 17Mbps and 24p, there is one other notable feature that sets the SD9 apart from the SD5 is the fact that it’s smaller. By reading the releases, it seams that this camcorder should deal with exposure better.

The reason that I’d rather wait until NAB is because I feel theirs a good chance that the HSC1U will get a replacement and besides the fact that it can easily get 1080 30p and 720 60p, I’m hoping that my complaints about a focusing ring that I rant about all the time will have been put to good use.

I see that you must have made up your mind about not wanting a non tape camcorder.

Have you ever tried something like this to speed up your downloads?
http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/

Also SD9 records DD 5.1 where SD5 only does DD 2.0

I could not load 30p clip into Vegas 8 Pro. Maybe it is because this is a trial version, but 60i clip is loaded with no problem.

I stumbled upon this review while searching for HF10 info, and I download all of the highest resolution clips. I transfered them to a thumbdrive and plugged it into my PS3 and it played the m2ts files without any problems at all. They looked stunning on my 46" 1920x1080 Sony Bravia XBR LCD. The amount of detail is amazing and the 30p capture produced very smooth looking motion. I was concerned that the quality of the flash based AVCHD would suffer compared to tape based HDV, but it looked very impressive. Even the sound was clear and I didn't notice too much noise comming from the camera itself...most likely due to the lack of a tape transport mechanisim. I was on the fence between this or the HV30, but if this footage is any indication, then I think the HF10 is going to beat it hands down. Camcorderinfo.com just got thier HF10 review model in last week and will have a review of it up shortly. Hopefully the low light performance doesn't suffer becuase of the smaller sensor (1/3").

BTW, are there any decent AVCHD/m2ts codecs for the PC out there? I have only been able to find one and its playback performance left much to be desired. So far, the PS3 is the only device in my house that plays back m2ts files perfectly.

I stumbled upon this review while searching for HF10 info, and I download all of the highest resolution clips. I transfered them to a thumbdrive and plugged it into my PS3 and it played the m2ts files without any problems at all. They looked stunning on my 46" 1920x1080 Sony Bravia XBR LCD. The amount of detail is amazing and the 30p capture porduced very smooth looking motion. I was concerned that the quality of the flash based AVCHD would suffer compared to tape based HDV, but it looked very impressive. Even the sound was clear and I didn't notice too much noise comming from the camera itself...most likely dude to the lack of a tape transport mechanisim. I was on the fence between this or the HV30, but if this footage is any indication, then I think the HF10 is going to beat it hands down. Camcorderinfo.com just got thier HF10 review model in last week and will have a review of it up shortly. Hopefully the low light performance doesn't suffer becuase of the smaller sensor (1/3").

BTW, are there any decent AVCHD/m2ts codes for the PC out there? I have only been able to find one and its playback performance left much to be desired. So far, the PS3 is the only device in my house that plays back m2ts files perfectly.

I agree!

Watch.impress.com also has a review of the 6000$ Sony PMW-EX1. I downloaded the PDZ-VX10 software viewer from Sony then the ezroom.mxf (43mb) from watch.impress and compared it the HF10's ezroom.m2ts (20mb)sample. I think the HF10 is just as sharp and every bit as good.(IMO the HF10 is better but maybe I'm doing something wrong). :-)

I stumbled upon this review while searching for HF10 info, and I download all of the highest resolution clips. I transfered them to a thumbdrive and plugged it into my PS3 and it played the m2ts files without any problems at all. They looked stunning on my 46" 1920x1080 Sony Bravia XBR LCD. The amount of detail is amazing and the 30p capture produced very smooth looking motion. I was concerned that the quality of the flash based AVCHD would suffer compared to tape based HDV, but it looked very impressive. Even the sound was clear and I didn't notice too much noise comming from the camera itself...most likely due to the lack of a tape transport mechanisim. I was on the fence between this or the HV30, but if this footage is any indication, then I think the HF10 is going to beat it hands down. Camcorderinfo.com just got thier HF10 review model in last week and will have a review of it up shortly. Hopefully the low light performance doesn't suffer becuase of the smaller sensor (1/3").

BTW, are there any decent AVCHD/m2ts codecs for the PC out there? I have only been able to find one and its playback performance left much to be desired. So far, the PS3 is the only device in my house that plays back m2ts files perfectly.

Don't rule out the Sony SR11/12...they too look to be stunners. If you like the idea of both an onboard HD and the ability to record to a memory stick, you should consider those too.

Don't rule out the Sony SR11/12...they too look to be stunners. If you like the idea of both an onboard HD and the ability to record to a memory stick, you should consider those too.

SR11 versus the HF10 and the new jvc hd6

Don't know why the SR11 pic is larger?(2300x1200)could be a snapshot?


SR11 -> http://trendy.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/special/20080221/1007264/?SS=trdimgview&FD=1443135171


HF10 -> http://trendy.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/special/20080304/1007677/?SS=trdimgview&FD=1443135171

JVC HD6 -> http://trendy.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/special/20080304/1007649/?SS=trdimgview&FD=-1054880766

JVC HD6 and the HF10

I'll leave the Sony out until we find more about the larger image(2300x1400)

JVC ->HD6 http://trendy.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/special/20080304/1007649/?SS=trdimgview&FD=1443135171

Canon HF10->http://trendy.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/special/20080304/1007677/?SS=trdimgview&FD=-353816188

What's interesting is how well the larger Sony image holds up to the smaller Canon HF10 image. Generally a smaller pix will appear sharper, but these two are pretty close despite the larger size of the Sony. It also seems the Sony image is a bit cleaner, again interesting considering the larger size.

It may or may not be indicative of anything relative to the video, but it is interesting.

What's interesting is how well the larger Sony image holds up to the smaller Canon HF10 image. Generally a smaller pix will appear sharper, but these two are pretty close despite the larger size of the Sony. It also seems the Sony image is a bit cleaner, again interesting considering the larger size.

It may or may not be indicative of anything relative to the video, but it is interesting.

Yeah, I resized the SR11 picture to 1920x1080 and it looks very similar to the HF10. I would have no problem with either! :)

What's odd is the Hf10 pic is 1920x1080 @ 630KB and the SR11 is 2304x1296 @ 1.8Mb...so I really don't understand this? I'm unsure if the Sony is frame capture or a 2megapixel photomode capture?

Cnet HF10 review:

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/canon-vixia-hf10/4505-6500_7-32786396.html

Cnet HF10 review:

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/canon-vixia-hf10/4505-6500_7-32786396.html

Wow...thanks.

Camcorderinfo.com just posted their review of the Panasonic HDC-SD9 which is Panasonic's main competitor for the HF10. In the review they state that while the SD9 performance is pretty good, they seem to think that from the initial tests they have done with the HF10 that it is quite a bit better. Again, their review of the HF10 will probably be up sometime next week.

May is a long way off to wait and see just how good the HF10 is in person.

I would love to see a head to head of HF10 vs SR11/12.

I went with the SR11 as I needed a camcorder for my cruise now.

BTW...Canon has released the user manual for the HF10/HF100

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=16186#DownloadDetailAct

Wow...thanks.

Camcorderinfo.com just posted their review of the Panasonic HDC-SD9 which is Panasonic's main competitor for the HF10. In the review they state that while the SD9 performance is pretty good, they seem to think that from the initial tests they have done with the HF10 that it is quite a bit better. Again, their review of the HF10 will probably be up sometime next week.

May is a long way off to wait and see just how good the HF10 is in person.

Yeah, I read the Camcorderinfo SD9 review, about what I expected. The SD9 has always been 4 or 5th on my list. The sensors are just too small.

I expect the HF10/100 will in stores by mid-April.

my new list:

1.HF100
2.SR11
3.HG10
4.HV30
5.-----

I stumbled upon this review while searching for HF10 info, and I download all of the highest resolution clips. I transfered them to a thumbdrive and plugged it into my PS3 and it played the m2ts files without any problems at all. They looked stunning on my 46" 1920x1080 Sony Bravia XBR LCD.

If these clips were straight from an HF10/100, then of course they're going to play because these cams are using 30PF (30 progressive frames inside a 60i stream). I highly doubt your PS3 would play true 1080/30P footage because that format is not defined in the blu ray spec as has been discussed on this site previously.

What Ungermann is getting at here is 30P might be of limited benefit moving forward. First, if you want to edit your footage (who won't?), you're going to want to edit on a true 30P timeline as opposed to a 60i timeline for the same reasons you need to edit 24P material on a 24P timeline. So out the window goes your 60i wrapper and with it, universal compatibility. Great, so now you've finished your edits and you're sitting with a lovely 30P project. What are you going to render out to? Unless you have access to high rent post facilities for SD DVD creation, then you're stuck like the rest of us.

Here's a thread that documented one person's experience rendering 30P material to a 60i SD DVD (and like he says, SD DVD's are ALWAYS interlaced).

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77998&page=2

And if you want HDM, then you're just SOL (or totally at the mercy of your NLE for encoding support, and then at the mercy of your playback equipment for correct progressive output because it's flagged as 60i) because Sony in its infinite wisdom conveniently left out 1080/30P in BD (even though most of their current pro cams shoot 30P). From what I've read, at least Toshiba included native progressive support for 30fps material.

So the workflow process with 30P material is definitely not as straight forward as many would have you believe, which is a real shame because interlacing just needs to go away already.

What Ungermann is getting at here is 30P might be of limited benefit moving forward.
On contrary, I believe that 30p will be the next big thing. All major DVD/Blu-ray/TV manufacturers will be adding and advertising support for 30p. But as of RIGHT NOW it is poorly supported simply because very few devices are capable to detect 30p in 60i video. The same processing, called 2:2 pulldown, is used in PAL TV for ages, so nothing new.

The discussion on DVInfo yelded nothing. Most people just don't know what they are talking about. They may be good videographers, but they don't know technical details, and thus cannot assess benefits of 30p.

Sony in its infinite wisdom conveniently left out 1080/30P in BD (even though most of their current pro cams shoot 30P). From what I've read, at least Toshiba included native progressive support for 30fps material.
Encode in 60i timeline with "progressive" or "weave" field settings, and play on a player that correctly detects 2:2 pulldown. I just got myself Samsung BD-P1200, it has Silicon Optix Reon chip, scales beautifully and detects 30p video within 60i stream. I am ready for 30p, at least for my own home videos.

For distribution, I would stick to 24p just because 2:3 pulldown processing is supported much better these days.

P.S. As for Sony new camcorders, they have no 30p, so I am not interested.

Well...actually, the main reason Canon is pushing 30p is to facilitate the posting of movies online...like YouTube. Since most online Flash based media is rendered at 15FPS, with30p, all they have to do is remove every other frame...not as tricky as having to deal with stuff that is 29.97FPS.

On contrary, I believe that 30p will be the next big thing. All major DVD/Blu-ray/TV manufacturers will be adding and advertising support for 30p.

And what do you expect the timeframe to be on this progression? I disagree for three reasons. First, although several progressive frame rates for 1920 x 1080 are defined in the ATSC standard, has there actually been any real discussion in broadcast television about moving away from 1080 interlaced material? Why would CE manufacturers implement native 1080P/30 if no one is broadcasting in that format?

Well then it's HDM. However, secondly, 1080/30P is not defined in the BD spec - the only viable, mass adopted (from the content owners' perspective at least) HD distribution medium we have right now. I'm not going to debate the download/stream vs. physical media distribution models - that's been done to death IMO. Because 30P is not mandated in BD, then you have no compatibility guarantees with your distributed project. You already know all of this because you correctly, IMO, recommend sticking with 24P for broad support.

Third, it's hard enough to get native 24P support from CE manufacturers. 24fps has been embedded in film for decades, yet there are only, today, a handful of HD displays that natively process 1080/24P. The vast majority of progressive displays are stuck in this telecine & interlace mess to get to a base 60Hz. It's clear to me that very few manufacturers "get it".

So in my mind, unless something changes in the above, there won't be any incentive for manufacturers to broadly embed support for 1080P/30 because there won't be any demand for it.

Encode in 60i timeline with "progressive" or "weave" field settings, and play on a player that correctly detects 2:2 pulldown. I just got myself Samsung BD-P1200, it has Silicon Optix Reon chip, scales beautifully and detects 30p video within 60i stream. I am ready for 30p, at least for my own home videos.

In order for this to work, your NLE must add 2:2 pulldown. Are you sure that Vegas Pro, Avid, Adobe, and Canopus NLE's do this when rendering out to a 1080/60i BD? Because I'm looking at the MainConcept BD template options in Vegas Pro and of course there is no mention of 2:2 pulldown being added. And getting questions like this answered by Sony is practically impossible.

I think the NIN thread discussing their BD release originally shot in 30P illustrates the workflow difficulty of this frame rate. Not sure if Jim was the band's DP for this project or not, but his thoughts on rendering 30P to BD effectively boiled down to two options: either your BD player ignores the interlace flags and correctly feeds a progressive image to your progressive display (preferred) or it follows the interlace flags and feeds an interlaced image to your display which your progressive display (or player) would then have to or attempt to deinterlace (not preferred).

So clearly, it's hit and miss at this point in time and I don't see that changing any time soon for the reasons I listed above. I really hope I'm proven wrong in the nearterm because 1080/30P is really the best option anyone has right now to maximize video rez while shooting progressively, yet avoiding some of the inherent disadvantages of 24P. I've spent the last week trying to figure out a bulletproof workflow for 1080/30P for event work because all of the newer pro/prosumer HDV, XDCAM, P2HD/DVCPRO cams can shoot 1080/30P, but I'm still running into a brickwall.

Well...actually, the main reason Canon is pushing 30p is to facilitate the posting of movies online...like YouTube. Since most online Flash based media is rendered at 15FPS, with30p, all they have to do is remove every other frame...not as tricky as having to deal with stuff that is 29.97FPS.
Nah. Everything uploaded to the Net is converted to progressive anyway, otherwise it looks like crap.

Well...just re-stating what Canon is saying:

"30p Progressive Mode

This is a unique feature that only Canon offers in the consumer camcorder market. You would otherwise have to look to professional video cameras in order to have this sophisticated tool at your command. In addition to the standard interlaced video frame rate of 60i, you may choose to set the VIXIA HV30 [Note: yes, I know it says HV30, but this is from the HF10 product page, see link below] to capture video in 30p which is (30 progressive frames) particularly useful for footage to be used on the Internet. In addition, this setting gives enhanced quality to still images captured after recording. Excellent for action shots and sports."

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=ModelFeaturesTabAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=16186

^^and, of course, that is correct. Just FYI, it's still 29.97fps since the 60i stream is actually 59.94 fields/sec. As you said, 30P is an even multiple of 15, hence the feature.

The problem with those of us looking to get out of this interlace mess once and for all is 1080/30P is the best we've got in the consumer space. 720/60P never really materialized in the camcorder space, much to the dismay of more advanced shooters. You just can't take 1080/30P anywhere reliably. I did get confirmation from a Premiere CS3 user today that the program won't even let him encode 1080/30P. I'm on Vegas Pro 8 and I can't encode 1080/30P either, just 1080/60i. So then you're at the mercy of the player and the display to determine how the footage will be decoded. It's supposed to be the other way around, LOL.