I am getting tired of studios releasing shorter, rated theatrical cuts on Blu-ray or HD DVD while DVD gets the longer, unrated cuts. This has taken over the top spot as the number 1 deal breaker for me. I will absolutely refuse to buy any Blu-ray or HD DVD in theatrical or rated version when there is a longer or unrated version available on SD DVD.

Other peeves I have in no particular order are:

Lack of lossless audio ala Paramount

Why Paramount and often Warner refuses to put lossless audio tracks on some of their biggest releases is a mystery. I used to think that Transformer thing was due to an older encode, but Beowulf not getting lossless must mean the answer lies elsewhere. Even if DD+ sounds fantastic, there is little to be lost by substituting TrueHD track for it.

Barebones releases

If you are going to go through the trouble of releasing something on Blu-ray or HD DVD, at least throw in a trailer and special features that are already made and on the DVD version. This is especially galling when they release a mega SD DVD set at the same time as the HDM release (American Gangster from Universal, Top Gun from Paramount or Night at the Museum from Fox)

Super pricey releases ala Fox or CETK

$30 and up catalog HDM has to go. I love HDM, but not when they are 3 to 8 times the cost of SD DVD counterpart. I would really, really, really have to love that movie to shell out that kind of money when in all likelyhood, I've already seen it and have it on DVD.

How about most romantic comedies and other movies where razor sharp picture and lossless audio do not really matter?

How many times have you heard some one say, "I can't wait for that Woody Allen film to come out on HDM!"?


What about the Blair Witch Project? Would anyone pay more for that just because it come on HDM?

Yeah romantic comedys, hell anything that doesn thave to do with action or outdoor scenes imo is a waste for HD.

Price is the biggest hurdle right now.

HD-DVD version of troy is a directors cut and it is quite nice. Added scenes and it looks great.

Yeah romantic comedys, hell anything that doesn thave to do with action or outdoor scenes imo is a waste for HD.

I couldn't disagree more. I'm not a fan of romantic comedies, but my wife will watch nothing else, so unfortunately I have become an expert.

Lossless audio actually makes a big difference in many of these movies. In most romantic comedies, the musical score is very prominent, and lossless audio gives the score a big punch: greater range, and easier to pick out individual instruments. Plus, in many romantic comedies, you may often hear dialog mixed with a loud musical score, and lossless audio really makes the dialog easier to understand.

Anyway, back on the topic of the poll, I think all of these factors are deal breakers, but not price so much since I only buy titles during BOGO sales.

I couldn't disagree more. I'm not a fan of romantic comedies, but my wife will watch nothing else, so unfortunately I have become an expert.

Lossless audio actually makes a big difference in many of these movies. In most romantic comedies, the musical score is very prominent, and lossless audio gives the score a big punch: greater range, and easier to pick out individual instruments. Plus, in many romantic comedies, you may often hear dialog mixed with a loud musical score, and lossless audio really makes the dialog easier to understand.

Anyway, back on the topic of the poll, I think all of these factors are deal breakers, but not price so much since I only buy titles during BOGO sales.

"easier to pick out individual instruments" - wow, those movies must even more boring than I imagined. :D

Let's face it, movies with mostly dialog and no action are hard sells for HDM. Even if they are priced the same as SD, peolpe won't buy them because they are no compatible with most of their players (except combo discs)...does anyone have a portable HDM player, an HDM player in their car/van or an HDM player connected to their SDTV? What about all those TVs with built-in SD DVD drives, are people willing to render them useless?

And romantic comedies often feature very attactive casts, who look better in HD. :D

They may not "need" HD to be enjoyable, but neither do action movies. I don't see any point in buying them on any other medium though. If it's worth buying, it's worth buying in HDM.

Price is HDM's worst enemy.

At the moment, IMO, HDMs biggest problem is glitchy hardware and discs that won't play. If this doesn't get sorted out quickly, no mass-market consumer will bother.

At the moment, IMO, HDMs biggest problem is glitchy hardware and discs that won't play. If this doesn't get sorted out quickly, no mass-market consumer will bother.

Agreed. ESPECIALLY with the premium demanded for the hardware/discs. A couple of my more tech savvy friends have already made their decisions to stay away. Just because Blu-Ray "won" doesn't mean they "won".

Price is HDM's worst enemy.

+1 agree !

To me, the biggest problem is selection. That will resolve itself over time and the Warner releases for 2008 look promising, but that's the biggest issue for me. I tend not to get excited about unrated cuts and bonus features, etc. And I expect to pay more for a new technology, just as I did with DVD.

Lack of lossless audio always makes a BD a bit of a disappointment to me.

I guess price heals all wounds. Despite my misgivings, I did purchase barebones releases (All the King's Men), poorly encoded releases (HoFD, BSD), even rated cuts of movies (Unleashed) when they dropped to $10 or less on BOGO or other sales.

Price is HDM's worst enemy.

+1 agree !
DUH!!! All other considerations are secondary, no matter what some here think.
HDM is still priced for the early adopter.
A few more will jump in now that BR is the clearly dominant format going forward.
The next wave of adopters will not take the leap until:
1. Media prices come way down
2. Content goes way up
3. More $300 and under players.
It's really quite simple.

There's no option for single layered mpeg-2 disc with old transfer?

It all comes down to price,HD media can't be more than $5 above SD.

Price is HDM's worst enemy.
Amen!! AND the continued proclivities of the studios to release more Claptrap than Quality--- content wise!

Price is obviously a concern. I tend to buy my HD and BD's at Frys simply because they are cheaper than Best Buy. I also have a couple of shops nearby that sell used HD/BD's, which is how I've picked up some discs as well.

But really, a barebones disc is a major turn-off. I've held off on buying the Top Gun HD simply because it's just the movie. The most recent DVD includes a bunch of extras, none of which appear on the HD. I'm also debating on the Jack Ryan HDs for the same reason, since they're not going to have any extras as well when they come out.

Fox and Paramount seem to be the big culprits here. Fox released a packed 2-disc version of Eragon on DVD, the BD only had the director's commentary and trailer as extras. Ended up buying Eragon used afterwards (it isn't a great film, but I'm a sucker for fantasy films).

They may not "need" HD to be enjoyable, but neither do action movies. I don't see any point in buying them on any other medium though. If it's worth buying, it's worth buying in HDM.

Thank you. I don't understand this attitude about certain genres not belonging in HD. If you don't like those movies, don't buy them.

As for whether I can play something in a car or on another set, why is that a big deal? I have plenty of other movies not on HDM that can be watched if a situation like that comes up

Anyway, I voted for too pricey, but that's really a catch-all answer. The others can be important factors, but if the price is appropriate I'll buy. It's the one factor that can be a deal-breaker for me.

Perhaps it is because of the early adopters, but Blu-Ray stand-alones cost more than HD-DVD stand-alones and they are selling much better than HD-DVD. I think content is more important than people think and that price might be less important. The relevant market consists of people who have plunked down a significant amount of money on an HDTV. The notion that such people have a $99 HD player ceiling strikes me as perhaps not entirely true. These are people who have already expressed -- via the HDTV purchase -- that the A/V experience is worth something to them.

We'll see as 2008 will surely bring more Blu-Ray players and lower hardware prices, particuarly for the holidays.

I think we've entered a phase where there's little daily news on the "format war." HD-DVD is slowly dying and it is the annual slow period (Q1) for DVD/HDM releases. I think there's much less to talk about right now, but people want to keep posting. As a result, we have a great deal of speculation and very few facts. We'll see what happens over the next 6-9 months.

And romantic comedies often feature very attactive casts, who look better in HD. :D

They may not "need" HD to be enjoyable, but neither do action movies. I don't see any point in buying them on any other medium though. If it's worth buying, it's worth buying in HDM.

Gotta agree about romantic comedies, period pieces, etc. My daughter and I just watched 'Pride and Prejudice', and I'm sorry but HD (A35) is an amazing way to view that (I'm sure Blu would have been just as good). The sound, settings and cinematography were amazing. I'm an action fan, but this was something else.

There are two main problems with the state of HDM right now: Price and selection. The amount of titles in DVD (90,000+) vs. either flavor of HDM (~400), I know that my tastes in movies run along usual types and other areas as well. If I'm going to spend more money on HDM disks either as replacement of movies I have, or to get new movies, I need at least some selection - and that's not going to be satisfied by 0.4 % of what's available on DVD.

I'll buy some HD DVD's (and would buy Blu disks, if I wanted to spend $600 on a player) but I have whole genres of movies that aren't available and I can't see becoming available unless the whole HDM thing takes off. I'll enjoy what I've got and treat it as an excellent upscaler with a bonus feature.

Here are ten titles I would love to buy in HD:

1. Gone with the Wind.
2. Kagemusha
3. Blade Runner (available)
4. Aliens
5. Gettysburg
6. Little Big Man
7. Doctor Shivago
8. Philadelphia Story
9. ET
10. Hello Dolly

These are not necessarily my top favorites (some are), but I think they would show HDM off to its best. What do you think my shot at getting them in Blu or HD DVD is?

I didn't vote, because selection of some type is my top consideration.

My guesses on your list:

GWTW, 2009 (semi-officially announced). Aliens and ET, late 2009 or 2010.

Others, mass market adoption.

What are the HDM releases that are shorter/theatrical versions without a longer/DC compared to DVDs?

What are the HDM releases that are shorter/theatrical versions without a longer/DC compared to DVDs?

Well, just off the top of my head

Ultraviolet (Sony)
Unleashed (Universal)
Live Free or Die Hard (Fox)
American Gangster (Universal)
King Kong (Universal)
Pearl Harbor (Disney)
Crimson Tide (Fox)
Mr. and Mrs. Smith (Fox)
Saw (Lionsgate)
Lethal Weapon (Warner)

I'm sure there are others.

At the moment, IMO, HDMs biggest problem is glitchy hardware and discs that won't play. If this doesn't get sorted out quickly, no mass-market consumer will bother.
+1:(

At the moment, IMO, HDMs biggest problem is glitchy hardware and discs that won't play. If this doesn't get sorted out quickly, no mass-market consumer will bother.

HD-A2 with ZERO problems with about 60 owned titles and 30 rented discs.

I voted Too Pricey. Lack of resume feature is also a potential worst deal breaker for HDM especially for the J6P.

How about most romantic comedies and other movies where razor sharp picture and lossless audio do not really matter?

How many times have you heard some one say, "I can't wait for that Woody Allen film to come out on HDM!"?


What about the Blair Witch Project? Would anyone pay more for that just because it come on HDM?
Hey...wait a minute mr everdog...Match Point would be great in hdm.
S Johansson...caruso...verdi:)

At the moment, IMO, HDMs biggest problem is glitchy hardware and discs that won't play. If this doesn't get sorted out quickly, no mass-market consumer will bother.
I own:
1- sammy 1400
1- tosh a2

Both play any and all thrown in it...flawlessly!

Super pricey releases ala Fox or CETK

$30 and up catalog HDM has to go. I love HDM, but not when they are 3 to 8 times the cost of SD DVD counterpart. I would really, really, really have to love that movie to shell out that kind of money when in all likelyhood, I've already seen it and have it on DVD.[/QUOTE]

I agree! The prices are much too high. If the the prices were lower I would buy a lot more HD-DVDs.

I have to agree with the op about the shorter or rated versions. Dune is one that especially irks me as I really enjoyed the extended edition and would like to see it in HD.

I also think that all disks should have at least DD+. I mean I see some releases with plain DD like T3 (according to blu-ray dot com listing). I can, however, accept lesser sound in older movies like The Omega Man as that was the way it was originally recorded. But I feel that all newer releases should get an upgrade.

b and c for me. When the software is too much it usually isn't purchased even if I want it.

Another vote for price. But as was said earlier, that's more of a catch all phrase.

It's apparent to me at this point that 1080p and lossless audio aren't enough to sway Average Joe to HDM.

Another selling point should be introduced into the market. Example, more special features and/or Director Cuts.

From day one the marketing strategy should have been:

"High Definition video/audio AND more content than standard DVD".

Not only more content but exclusive to HDM. Every disc should have this. Make it a standard.

At that point when Average Joe is asking himself "what am I get'n for dem extra duckets" he'll know he's getting a laundry list of extras not available on DVD.

For me personally, I rarely watch extras. If I've seen the theatrical release of a flick, I find it difficult to watch the extended versions. New footage breaks the pace for me. I also blind buy HDM on a weekly basis.

As Newbie so elegantly put it, "If it's worth buying, it's worth buying in HDM."

Unfortunately, not everyone thinks like me. If they did, there would be one HDM format, DVD would be dead, we'd all pay our taxes online, there would be an In-N-Out Burger on every corner, and the makers of Arbor Mist and parachute pants would be the two richest people in the world. :D

Mia

Another vote for price. But as was said earlier, that's more of a catch all phrase.

It's apparent to me at this point that 1080p and lossless audio aren't enough to sway Average Joe to HDM.

Another selling point should be introduced into the market. Example, more special features and/or Director Cuts.

From day one the marketing strategy should have been:

"High Definition video/audio AND more content than standard DVD".

Not only more content but exclusive to HDM. Every disc should have this. Make it a standard.

At that point when Average Joe is asking himself "what am I get'n for dem extra duckets" he'll know he's getting a laundry list of extras not available on DVD.

For me personally, I rarely watch extras. If I've seen the theatrical release of a flick, I find it difficult to watch the extended versions. New footage breaks the pace for me. I also blind buy HDM on a weekly basis.

As Newbie so elegantly put it, "If it's worth buying, it's worth buying in HDM."

Unfortunately, not everyone thinks like me. If they did, there would be one HDM format, DVD would be dead, we'd all pay our taxes online, there would be an In-N-Out Burger on every corner, and the makers of Arbor Mist and parachute pants would be the two richest people in the world. :D

Mia
I hear what you're saying about price, however,

Sunroof on that car...that'll be extra
batteries with that toy...that'll be extra
mushrooms with that burger....that'll be extra

Not an extra person myself but sometimes...

What's the exchange rate on on ducket to euro?

HDM will never catch on if it's overpriced.

At the current time it is and will be for a long time to come.

If the prices don't go low enough it will never catch on.

DVD represents a tremendous value right now in home entertainment. Great catalog titles for $5, $7.50, and even less in the vast used market.

HDM at $30 will never be more than a niche.

I voted price but lack of content is equally valid IMO. Look at Walmart's movie selection through the eyes of a DVD buyer - 10 or 20 ho-hum movies at $25 and up vs hundreds if not thousands of DVDs for $5 to $15.

There should have been a fifth option in the poll: e) ALL OF THE ABOVE. :rolleyes:

P.S. I voted 'c' but 'a' and 'd' were just as strong reasons.

How about most romantic comedies and other movies where razor sharp picture and lossless audio do not really matter?

How many times have you heard some one say, "I can't wait for that Woody Allen film to come out on HDM!"?

I disagree with this. HD is HD, and there is a difference with all content. All can be enjoyed in SD and all can be enjoyed more in HD. Action is not all that is required to make HD worthwhile.

A few weeks ago, I was watching the SD DVD of Field of Dreams. During the movie, I was impressed with the quality of the picture and wondered if it would be worth it to have the HD DVD. I switched over to Comcast's HD On Demand version of the film, and it was a significant improvement over what I thought was a good SD DVD image. What was interesting was that when watching the DVD by itself, it was quite good, but when A/B testing with HD, the DVD no longer was impressive.

With sound, I find quality sound to be more important when there is subtlety in the presentation. Explosions and bullets are flashy, but do they really require as much fidelity as ambient sounds and symphonic scores? Not in my opinion.

I can't wait for that Woody Allen film to come out on HDM since most of his titles aren't even anamorphic.

I voted for price because I am purchasing discs for $10-$15 that I never would have purchased for $20-$30 and also never would have purchased for $5-$8 on SD DVD.

Price!

I can live with every other selection on the poll, but the current pricing struture is a definite dealbreaker. Special Features are nice, but in the end, I'm in it for the movie. Granted, for the money we shell out for these HDM's, there should be lossless on every single release but I have heard numerous lossy tracks that are quite good. As far as a shortened or rated version goes, unless it is one of my favorite movies, this generally does not sway me on the purchase.

I disagree with this. HD is HD, and there is a difference with all content. All can be enjoyed in SD and all can be enjoyed more in HD. Action is not all that is required to make HD worthwhile.

A few weeks ago, I was watching the SD DVD of Field of Dreams. During the movie, I was impressed with the quality of the picture and wondered if it would be worth it to have the HD DVD. I switched over to Comcast's HD On Demand version of the film, and it was a significant improvement over what I thought was a good SD DVD image. What was interesting was that when watching the DVD by itself, it was quite good, but when A/B testing with HD, the DVD no longer was impressive.

With sound, I find quality sound to be more important when there is subtlety in the presentation. Explosions and bullets are flashy, but do they really require as much fidelity as ambient sounds and symphonic scores? Not in my opinion.

I can't wait for that Woody Allen film to come out on HDM since most of his titles aren't even anamorphic.


There will always be a tiny minority that thinks this, but the vast majority of people will disagree. People don't mind watching some shows on their 2 inch ipod screens, and they will not be willing to pay extra for some HDM films that do not work on most of their players.

My wife is a great example. She will start to watch a show in HD and then switch to the TV in our bedroom in SD. I also have caught her watching SD shows on our HDTV when they are available in HD too. The fact is she doesn't care about the difference is PQ qualtiy, she just cares about the show.

I can't wait for that Woody Allen film to come out on HDM since most of his titles aren't even anamorphic.

I would like some of those as well. It kind of sucks though, that even to this day he has his films mixed in mono sound. Even Kubrick had 5.1 for Eyes Wide Shut in 1999, but Allen still sticks to mono. Oh well, that's his prerogative.

I would like some of those as well. It kind of sucks though, that even to this day he has his films mixed in mono sound. Even Kubrick had 5.1 for Eyes Wide Shut in 1999, but Allen still sticks to mono. Oh well, that's his prerogative.

Do you think that jpco can't wait to hear those mono soundtracks in all ther lossless glory on HDM?

If studios are relying on people like that to buy HDM, then it will surely fail.

I voted for the last option - on versions. For example, I wish both versions were available on some discs, instead of just Unrated for "Eyes Wide Shut" or just rated for "Live Free or Die Hard". I did pick up "Eyes Wide Shut", but I've held off from buying the Die Hard for that very reason. The Unrated version came out on DVD, but a BD version did not. I'll wait.

Barebones discs. This was really never an issue with hddvd so that is the first format I picked. I now own both and Fox and MGM are saving me a lot of money. These are quadruple dips for me since I had the vhs, then dvd, then S.E. dvd so if they don't have the extras and with 50gb there is no reason not to so it is a no buy.

price !!!!!!!!!

Do you think that jpco can't wait to hear those mono soundtracks in all ther lossless glory on HDM?

If studios are relying on people like that to buy HDM, then it will surely fail.

I never said anything about j6p. All I said was that I would like them. I don't care about what j6p thinks. If he doesn't want to buy those titles, that's fine. However, just because the average person won't buy something, that doesn't mean those titles shouldn't get released at all. If that was the case, there would be no Criterion (well, except for their Michael Bay titles). There's room for all kinds of movies.

Where's the "firmware + J6P = NOPE" option?

Do you think that jpco can't wait to hear those mono soundtracks in all ther lossless glory on HDM?

If studios are relying on people like that to buy HDM, then it will surely fail.

Since you said jpco and not J6P, I'll assume you were talking about people like me. That would mean you are talking about lifelong movie lovers whose tastes run from classic movies from the 30s to current quality releases. That would mean people who have built collections in Beta, VHS, Laserdisc, and DVD. That would mean people who buy to collect rather than just rent their movies. That would mean people who see value in a collection and enjoy cataloguing and researching their movies. That would mean people who don't run their subs 5-10 db hot just to vibrate their pictures off the walls and aren't amazed/impressed with the latest cgi effects when there's little compelling story or character development. It would mean appealing to people who appreciate movies and want to see and hear everything in its best possible quality, including Woody Allen's dialog-heavy mono soundtracks, not to mention the excellent cinematography that graces a number of his movies.

If studios are relying on people like that to buy HDM, then they will surely fail? If that's the case, then they have no chance of doing anything but replacing DVD for a time before disposable downloads and VOD suck their market dry.

If it's worth buying, it's worth buying in HDM.
+1
I couldn't have said it better myself. Price DOES need to come down, though.

I think if Best Buy/Circuit City/Target/Wal-Mart prices were closer to Amazon prices, they're be vast improvement. I get most of my DVDs at Target and Target's DVD prices on Tuesdays are generally competitive, but I've bought perhaps one Blu-Ray at Target because they sell at near MSRP. I think they may be experimenting with pricing, as I've seen Halloween at Target for $19.99, but no others at that price.

The best part of this thread is the one theme that has echoed over and over throughout and will be settled over time.

Over time more and more people will buy new and larger HDTV's as they continue to drop in price.

Over time the cost of Blu-Ray players will decline as the development cost and component cost come down and the CE's are able to reduce their cost.

Over time HDM will begin to see a lower sticker price as the studios realize that the retail prices are hurting their overall sales.

Over time people will forget about the format war as there will be only one HDM format out there for the new adopters to invest in.

Like many, my audio playback device is an LCD HD set, so the only plus of HDM that really matters is the increased resolution and diminished artifacting.

For me, the primary HDM drawbacks are price and availability.

There should have been a fifth option in the poll: e) ALL OF THE ABOVE. :rolleyes:

P.S. I voted 'c' but 'a' and 'd' were just as strong reasons.

+1.

HDM has to be more than DVD and it has to be that way on *all* fronts before Joe Q Public will buy into it.

Seggers

Perhaps it is because of the early adopters, but Blu-Ray stand-alones cost more than HD-DVD stand-alones and they are selling much better than HD-DVD.


That is just not true. Prior to the Warner announcement they were even. As I typed this, currently on Amazon.com the number 1 movie player is the A30 HD DVD player with the the A3 4th and the A35 8th. The best Bluray could do is 19th place. If HD DVD was dying, this would be impossible on any website.

I think content is more important than people think and that price might be less important.


Thats funny becuase the PS3 didn't start selling till they cut the price down to almost half of its original price.

The relevant market consists of people who have plunked down a significant amount of money on an HDTV. The notion that such people have a $99 HD player ceiling strikes me as perhaps not entirely true.


They blew out 90,000 HD DVD players in a single weekend at $99 so there goes that theory



HD-DVD is slowly dying and it is the annual slow period


Actually they're on the rise and almost back to where they were prior to the Warner announcement



As a result, we have a great deal of speculation and very few facts. We'll see what happens over the next 6-9 months.

on that we agree......


Bottom line? Price is king. MP3<CD<SACD but MP3 is ALOT cheaper.........hmmmmm...

I can deal with a bit overpriced as loong as it has lossless.

I think OP should enter another option: Ease of renting

That is just not true. Prior to the Warner announcement they were even. As I typed this, currently on Amazon.com the number 1 movie player is the A30 HD DVD player with the the A3 4th and the A35 8th. The best Bluray could do is 19th place. If HD DVD was dying, this would be impossible on any website.



The NPD numbers are pretty clear on this point. In 2008, Blu-Ray has a huge stand-alone sales advantage. Amazon simply is not representative. The fact that its sales numbers are readily available leads people to believe that it is more important than it is, but the facts since the beginning of the "format war" show that Amazon's hardware sales are a drop in the bucket.

I own:
1- sammy 1400
1- tosh a2

Both play any and all thrown in it...flawlessly!

I'm happy for you, however, your experience is hardly typical (particularly for those of use with slightly older players) if the frequency of AVS 'arrg, these disc won't play' posts is representative of the full consumer base of HDM players..

DUH!!! All other considerations are secondary, no matter what some here think.
HDM is still priced for the early adopter.

That's because HDM is still in the early adopter phase and will continue to be until this silly dual format 'war' is resolved.

I agree that once HDM sorts itself out and begins to be seen as an alternative to DVD price will be all important.

The mere fact that $399 BR players outsell $199 (or less) HDDVD players tells you loud and clear HDM is still with the early adopters. Either that or your 'duh' is not quite as much of a 'duh' as you think!

Pricing for sure!

Fox, are you listening!

I would have liked to vote all of the above, but price is the biggest factor. I am pissed that Predator on Blu will not have commentary or special features but I love the film. I will buy it when it is cheaper. I will buy a film without extras if I like the film. I will not buy anything that is overpriced.

Pricing. I refuse to pay more than $15 (and that's pushing it) for any HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, new release or older title. I've got 200+ SD DVD's and all I see on that rack is money wasted - movies that I won't watch now because they're not HD and movies that I blind-bought, watched once and put back on the shelf. I'm not making that mistake again and I've got more disposable income now than ever before.

Price. I wont buy any title unless I can get a BOGO deal or similar. Also rental disc issues are a big killer IMO. I have had (and talked to many others) a LOT of disc playback issues with HD-DVD rental discs. It sucks because you always have that question in the back of your mind "will the disc play all the way through?"

Perhaps it is because of the early adopters, but Blu-Ray stand-alones cost more than HD-DVD stand-alones and they are selling much better than HD-DVD.
That is just not true. Prior to the Warner announcement they were even. As I typed this, currently on Amazon.com the number 1 movie player is the A30 HD DVD player with the the A3 4th and the A35 8th. The best Bluray could do is 19th place. If HD DVD was dying, this would be impossible on any website.HD DVD players have always sold better on Amazon, but NPD have basically never agreed with that for a bigger sampling of the market. For the week ending January 26th NPD had HD DVD players grabbing just 28% of the market compared to 65% for Blu-ray. You say that prior to the Warner announcement they were even, yet even on Amazon the HD-A3 was doing much better on Amazon before the Warner announcement than it is now (as far as ranking in electronics).
Actually they're on the rise and almost back to where they were prior to the Warner announcementWhat is your basis for this claim? The HD-A3 was #3 in all of electronics on Amazon just before the Warner announcement and got up to around there (might have peaked at #4 though) just after the price drop to $149 MSRP, but the HD-A3 is currently #47 in electronics on Amazon. The HD-A30 is ranked worse than the HD-A3 (since the A3 is #1 for HD DVD players), but doesn't give the ranking in electronics from what I could see.

HD DVD isn't almost back to where they were for software sales ratio before the Warner announcement, or for player sales by NPD count, and on Amazon the A3 isn't even close to the same ranking in electronics as it had before the Warner announcement (or the #2 in electronics it hit in Q4 or 2007), so are you going to stick to your claim that they are almost back to where they were prior to the Warner announcement?

People need to look at where these things are in electronics if they want to use the rankings, instead of just where they are in DVD players. Being the #1 DVD player but #47 in electronics isn't the same as being the #1 DVD player but #3 in electronics (and we also need to keep in mind that they are rankings, so the sales it takes to get to a ranking can change).

--Darin

I to have noticed some releases(notably Warner being the biggest culprit)of late have included sparse to no extra material besides that of the actual movie and maybe 1 or 2 extras.For the price they are asking for these discs(BRD and HD-DVD), having a special edition DVD available will more extra materials than it's HD counterpart(s) and for very often $10-$20 less is entirely unacceptable.If i'm buying an HD version of a flick and already spendign $10+ more than that movie's regular rez DVD counterpart, then i'm obviously expecting that HD disc to contain ALL the material available of all editions of the DVD versions, and then some.

I to have noticed some releases(notably Warner being the biggest culprit)of late have included sparse to no extra material besides that of the actual movie and maybe 1 or 2 extras.For the price they are asking for these discs(BRD and HD-DVD), having a special edition DVD available will more extra materials than it's HD counterpart(s) and for very often $10-$20 less is entirely unacceptable.If i'm buying an HD version of a flick and already spendign $10+ more than that movie's regular rez DVD counterpart, then i'm obviously expecting that HD disc to contain ALL the material available of all editions of the DVD versions, and then some.

Which Warner titles have more extras on the DVD counterparts? Are you sure you're not confusing them with Fox?

Price is a concern for most folks, but there are some inherent costs which folks just won't pony up for at the moment. The main thing that folks forget is that you can buy an HDTV plug it in and not a single firmware update is ever expected. It is just going to work. Not so for the HDM players. PS3s, Blu-Ray and HDDVD all have required a good number of firmware uploads. Most regular consumer can't spell ISO nor do they have high-speed internet. This same problem that will limit the adoption of downloading solutions will limit many in their adoption of Blu-Ray and PS3's. To take advantage of the tech, you really need a high speed internet connection. That means that folks like my parents who live just outside city limits with satellite access won't purchase a player until every conceivable fix has been done. Buying a $30 movie to put into the $300 player and having it ask for a firmware update is just NOT AN OPTION. Further, it isn't an option for J6P. That along with the multiple profiles is 1.0. 1.1, 2.0, etc.., etc..is doing just as much to harm adoption as HD-DVD still being in exsistance. Don't get me wrong, but the ideal HDM player is a Blu-Ray with wi-fi, 2.0 spec, and fully firmwared all for under $200 with discs that top out at $20. And that my friends is a long way off in the future....maybe even after the adoption of downloads...who knows, but the needs are great and the promises seem far away.

Lack of lossless audio ala Paramount


Couldn't care less. Transformers, an otherwise worthless movie is the best-selling HD release ever until date, won the best audio title etc - without any kind of lossless audio.

I'm plannign to upgrade my year-old SR674 at some point - until then A35 is doing fine - but so far no rush here...


Barebones releases


True, I don't like it either though usually it's not a deal breaker for me. OTOH I loooove the interactive, extra features on HD DVDs... :cool:


Super pricey releases ala Fox or CETK


Totally agree. asking $20-30 for an HD release is just plain ridiculous, especially when HD DVDs cost the same like SD DVDs - I, for one, refuse to buy anything for $20 and up (sans multidisc and special sets a la Blade Runner brifcase, BBC etc.)

Price is never the real issue. Its VALUE.

The problem is there is no increased VALUE with HDM. Even with us enthusiasts, we don't put the value of a HDM title as high as the studios would like. I had family over for a "Guys Movie Night" this past Saturday. We watched Oldboy on SD (awful transfer. DREADFUL PQ) then several HD/BluRay, then Sunshine on SD (I bought the BluRay but it hadn't been delivered yet). After the four were done I asked which one movie looked the best. I got a puzzled look from one person and a "they all looked great" from another. No one said the middle two were better (which they CLEARLY were). I just cannot imagine these people, or the public in general to accept the higher pricing and the added necessity of updates for the increase in AQ and PQ that they cannot even discern.

Pricing, I look for bargains to help with the CFO appeasal.

Added value helps, especially physical extras, I had no problem getting the HP boxset approved.

I use the term approved losely, basically I get what I want, but I prefer to get it without any eyerolling or complaining.

Price is never the real issue. Its VALUE.

The problem is there is no increased VALUE with HDM. Even with us enthusiasts, we don't put the value of a HDM title as high as the studios would like. I had family over for a "Guys Movie Night" this past Saturday. We watched Oldboy on SD (awful transfer. DREADFUL PQ) then several HD/BluRay, then Sunshine on SD (I bought the BluRay but it hadn't been delivered yet). After the four were done I asked which one movie looked the best. I got a puzzled look from one person and a "they all looked great" from another. No one said the middle two were better (which they CLEARLY were). I just cannot imagine these people, or the public in general to accept the higher pricing and the added necessity of updates for the increase in AQ and PQ that they cannot even discern.

You're ignoring the fact that there's a price that very few people will pay for ANY, including the most valuable ones, movie.

Anything that's more expensive at release than ~2x of the release price of the DVD version ($6-$8) has zero chance to make en masse sales.

#1 Lack of content! There are a dozen movies I'd buy on HDM today, without hesitation, at full price, if only those movies were available.

All other factors pale in comparison to lack of content, but some other factors include:

#2 Lack of English subtitles on some discs imported from Japan. I'd own Steamboy now if only it had English subtitles!

#3 Canadian-U.S. price disparity. This only delays my purchases until I have enough to group into one shipment. But if I wasn't tempted by cheaper online prices, I think I'd still the same movies at store prices.

The thing about price is, I'm not going to waste my time buying and watching a sh*tty movie just because it's cheap, so really I don't think it's a major factor for me.

The NPD numbers are pretty clear on this point. In 2008, Blu-Ray has a huge stand-alone sales advantage. Amazon simply is not representative. The fact that its sales numbers are readily available leads people to believe that it is more important than it is, but the facts since the beginning of the "format war" show that Amazon's hardware sales are a drop in the bucket.

You call these NPD numbers huge? Week two the free Bluray players were counted
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i267/VETTHRET/Z-HD_DVD.jpg

HD DVD isn't almost back to where they were for software sales ratio before the Warner announcement, or for player sales by NPD count, and on Amazon the A3 isn't even close to the same ranking in electronics as it had before the Warner announcement (or the #2 in electronics it hit in Q4 or 2007), so are you going to stick to your claim that they are almost back to where they were prior to the Warner announcement?
-Darin
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/08/nielsen-videoscan-high-def-market-share-for-week-ending-february/

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i267/VETTHRET/nielsen020308.jpg



Neilsens: Now we get to wait and see if this red comeback trend continues in the face of a more impressive Blu lineup the following week, because if red comes back any more, the 74/26 split will be back to 65/35 before we know it.

I thought Neilsens counted everything including PS3 and software sales in their charts. Is that not true?

Neilsens: Now we get to wait and see if this red comeback trend continues in the face of a more impressive Blu lineup the following week, because if red comes back any more, the 74/26 split will be back to 65/35 before we know it.I don't think 65/35 is real likely. Definitely not as a trend. Maybe for one week with American Gangster if they do a lot of specials on other discs the same week or something like that though. Things are going to fluctuate week to week, especially with different releases and different sales (like the HD DVD BOGO deals that were part of that 74:26 week), but looking at the trends by averaging multiple weeks, HD DVD getting back to where they were before the Warner announcement seems unlikely at this point to me.
I thought Neilsens counted everything including PS3 and software sales in their charts. Is that not true?I'm not sure I understand that question completely, but as far as those software sales, they count all HD DVD and Blu-ray discs scanned (including things like 2-for-1 deals where they consider that the purchaser bought both) and they don't differentiate whether a person bought a movie to watch using a standalone or a game system. NPD counts PS3 hardware and game software sales. Not sure if Nielsen gets involved in that at all. Those NPD charts for hardware don't count the PS3s or XBOX360 add-ons.

--Darin

Price is never the real issue. Its VALUE.

The problem is there is no increased VALUE with HDM. Even with us enthusiasts, we don't put the value of a HDM title as high as the studios would like. I had family over for a "Guys Movie Night" this past Saturday. We watched Oldboy on SD (awful transfer. DREADFUL PQ) then several HD/BluRay, then Sunshine on SD (I bought the BluRay but it hadn't been delivered yet). After the four were done I asked which one movie looked the best. I got a puzzled look from one person and a "they all looked great" from another. No one said the middle two were better (which they CLEARLY were). I just cannot imagine these people, or the public in general to accept the higher pricing and the added necessity of updates for the increase in AQ and PQ that they cannot even discern.

+1

And for me value means it has staying power, it will be adopted into the car, it will be put into portable players.....

Why do I mention this? I don't want to repurchase Star Wars to find one day that they won't make portable units for cars, watching on an airplane, etc. If I have to pay more money so that I can only watch a movie on a select machine in a select room or maybe at a friend's house in a few years when they catch up to the technology...THAT to me is NOT value. And right now, HDM lacks value. They have yet to put out a single commercial which explains to the public why it is and will remain valuable. That is a big deal, and it is super important. Where is the VALUE in a BDA commercial? If you don't play games, there is very little VALUE in switching to HDM.

The nature of any industry that thrives on new technology, for example: automobiles, televisions, computers, cell phones, etc... is that if you want the latest and newest features, you will have to pay an added premium for it. If you want the latest technology, you have to cough up the dough for it. HDM is no different. If anyone seriously thought they wouldn't be paying this much for 1080p resolution and lossless audio, they are very naive.

Prices will drop as people spend money. People will spend money as prices drop. Technology will lower production costs. Profit breeds technology. It hasn't happened yet but it will. Remember, once upon a time, DVDs were $30+ each.

The allure of HDM is flawless picture and flawless sound. Without lossless audio, much of the value of the movie is gone. I don't think I would ever buy a HDM disc if it didn't have lossless audio. It gets my vote.