Well, it looks like it's out and available to whom may wish to access Pioneers 8gs Elites ISF_ccc interface.

Despite some experts are pointing out that the utility (or the interface) lacks some important controls, like per-channel luminance and per-channel saturation adjustments, at the moment it extends calibration options.

What the utility does:

- for each input, (including tuners and Home media gallery) enables and adds 2 new items in the Picture->AV Selection menu: ISF Day & ISF Night; each item holds it's own settings, once stored in the TV, and those settings stay locked in the user menu.

- allows adjustment of 9 points grayscale

- works with European Elite-equivalent models (I had a go with my 508XD, and it works, so it should with other models)

The utility requires a RS-232 straight cable (DB9, female to female), thus if you are missing (like me) a 9-pin male port on your PC, buy a USB-RS-232 (DB9 male) and plug a gender changer female-to-female adapter on it.

Read instructions, and follow carefully the steps packed with utility to start with.

At the moment, I've played with the utility just 5 minutes, and I could power on the TV set, get the model, select inputs and start calibration mode.... but that's where I've stopped!

Why? Read on!

Once up and running, I threw some measurements with my sensor in HCFR, and suprise: the colorpoints on the CIE chart were identical to those in the "AV Selection"->User settings; also the grayscale measurement was similar to that one in the User settings....
Moreover what it was a suspect soon became reality: the utility misses the HUE adjustments available in the User menu ("Colour management")

So, how does this utility works? Does it need some pre-calibration in user menu? Does it copy some settings set in the user menu?

At this point.... we need help!

There must be some additional information on program usage somewhere. Maybe it is a beta version? Will new releases add other adjustments unavailable in the user menu (per-channel color luminance and saturation controls)? Will it add the user menu's HUE controls?

If you can help the discussion, get on with it!

In the meanwhile get the utility here: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/Pioneer%20Elite%20Kuro%20ISF%20-%20v1.0.zip

The utility has been crafted from Sencore

Greetings

The C3 interface traditionally does not work in conjunction with the user menu items. Once ISF modes are set ...they are locked in and the end user cannot do anything to the modes. There is no provision to bump the user controls even one click just in case the program is mastered poorly.

The C3 is both good and bad ... but without access to all the user controls too via the interface ... the implementation is incomplete. The program is still in Beta ...

Regards

The C3 is both good and bad ... but without access to all the user controls too via the interface ... the implementation is incomplete. The program is still in Beta ...

Ok that means, that at the moment, it is almost useless, unless someone would like to see how the grayscale curve can be flattened with a 9 points option.

Imho it only misses the HUE adjusments to have same user menu functionality + 9 points grayscale adjustment.

But at least it's a start, and if some users here on the forum are in touch with Pioneer's friends, maybe we can enrich the discussion...

Did you have a go with it?

Greetings

In this case, not yet. I just asked someone I trust if it only had the main user functions .. or did it include access to the color space stuff and the cMS ... and the other things in the pro adjust section of the TV. Answer I got was no ...not there ... but if your experience is different ...

Regards

I have had the Sencore utility for a couple of weeks now. They should be ashamed to have released such a JOKE and insulted our inteligence. This is one I won't forget. Anyone of us could have hacked our way in to the system and done better. My hope is that CalMAN will do our displays some justice.
Pro 150 FD
Joe

Michael,
the utility has only adjustments for calibration purpose, but within those, it misses the "Colour management section".

Now I realize it also misses gamma and colour space settings

Indeed all the other settings (filters) are left out.

Would be nice to stay in contact with developers if we had the opportunity.

Blutarsky: I didn't realise you were using the Sencore beta interface. I thought you had a fully functioning one from a different source.....It is possible to adjust all the things you want in a c3 interface it is just that Sencore have obviously not implimented that yet.

Gordon

Does anybody knows about some technical reference about the RS-232 ISF interface?

Could be interesting to know what adjustments are available.... who knows, we may discover it is possible to tweak those adjustments that usually belong to Video Processor's domain ? :cool:

Maybe Joshua can enlighten us, and give use more information?

Not to defend Sencore on this, but someone does not go from charging >$1,000 for a product and then turnaround and give it away for free without a really good reason. What you are seeing is probably a "teaser" for them. It will do a little bit, but if you want the full product (http://www.sencore.com/products/acp6500.htm), it costs money. I would not judge Sencore's implementation based on what you get from them for free. I would also not expect them to improve on this product much, if any.

Bill


(Yes, we will have a solution for serial control)

I do have the codes that their utility uses (and more). I have plans to add support for these models in ControlCAL but I currently do not have access to a Pioneer for testing and my priority has been to add Sony support. The Pioneer Command format is similar to Mitsubishi's where the Sony is not.

If someone was interested in helping test in the future, please let me know.


Shawn

I do have the codes that their utility uses (and more). I have plans to add support for these models in ControlCAL but I currently do not have access to a Pioneer for testing and my priority has been to add Sony support. The Pioneer Command format is similar to Mitsubishi's where the Sony is not.

If someone was interested in helping test in the future, please let me know.


Shawn

Shawn, I sent you a PM with my phone number so we can talk :)

I wouldn't shoot on Sencore, either.

The utility is functional, and works with my TV. It only lacks some controls but it may be a metter of time...

Would be nice to have an official statement from Pioneer or Sencore...

Turbe, does controlCal works with Pioneer ISF c3?

It only lacks some controls but it may be a metter of time...
I can't imagine this is a "we need more time" thing. They have a fully-functioning product in the background. This is more likely a "it's not as successful as we had hoped, so let's try something new to raise awareness" thing. Tool vendors, like us, stick around because we sell tools. Giving tools away haphazardly is a short ticket to the tool vendor exiting the market for greener pastures.

Bill

Bill what makes things strange is lackness of Pioneer's statements...

Why did they release such an uncomplete tool?

Bill what makes things strange is lackness of Pioneer's statements...

Why did they release such an uncomplete tool?

I won't betray any confidences, and I also do not want to bash anyone, so please take this as a sincere attempt to explain a scenario where various business models may be in at odds a bit, rather than providing a definitive explanation.

Take as a given that the HT market can be broken up into many different segments - clusters of consumers. Take as a given that some of the defining differences between some of these segments are in people's "willingness to pay" for home theater equipment -- they have higher incomes, they value increases in performance more, etc.

A CE company looking to differentiate its product line between a lower-end and upper-end customer needs to find attributes that the higher-end customers are going to appreciate and who are also going to be willing to pay a premium for those attributes. Things like additional inputs, better processing, improved coatings are all things that a customer in the upper-tier can appreciate and the retail sales guy can clearly articulate.

Color accuracy, on the other hand, has been a tough sell historically*, though it is getting better the more people know about it. If you have a color accuracy feature in your product, you want EVERYONE to know about it in the target segment(s) and to use it. You especially want to people to stay out of places (e.g., service menus) where they can mess up the set and wreak havoc with your warranty process (e.g., "it came that way").

Where this gets complicated is that your color accuracy feature requires the cooperation of third-parties to make it usable because you don't want to be in the tools business, you want to sell electronics. The third parties want to recoup their engineering investment, so they charge for the tools that use this. The law of supply and demand says that for an ordinary good, if you raise its price, the quantity demanded goes down.

Having fewer people use the feature lowers its value in the marketplace to the manufacturer because fewer people can access (supply is constrained), plus the price to use the feature is higher (you need a professional calibration with the expensive tools), so demand is lower. This is a bit of a catch-22. The manufacturer can get into the tool business (which is rarely a good idea - read Michael Porter's or CK Prahalad's books for some business reasons why), or you can try something else. Perhaps the economists are wrong, and "perfect information" does not exist. Perhaps if you make an explicit effort to raise awareness about the feature, then that will shift the supply/demand dynamic.

Hence, a "teaser" application. I am not saying this is definitively WHY Pioneer and Sencore have released the freeware application, but this should be a story that hangs together reasonably well to describe one plausible scenario.

Hopefully this does help explain why this makes sense using some reasonably sound business logic, even if it does not necessarily reflect the specific dynamic going on. :)

Bill

* When you needed a professional technician to install your big CRT 3-gun front projector, this was easier because it was included in the overall service -- often costing >>$1,000.

Bill what makes things strange is lackness of Pioneer's statements...

Why did they release such an uncomplete tool?
So having provided a little story time, let's examine what the situation is:

Is it incomplete?
Yes, but it was free. If you get ANY use out of it, then you are better off than where you started.
Does it satisfy the demand it creates for a tool like this?
Of course not! Something that is free ought to have demand that is nearly infinite. :)
Can I call Pioneer for support?
Pass the popcorn. Can I listen in on that call? :) It is Sencore's tool, so let's not get our hopes up that Pioneer will actively support it.
Can I call Sencore for support?
Looks like we need another tub. More butter this time, please! :) Since Sencore gave it away, I expect I know the answer they will give when people have questions ("Can I interest you in our ACP6500 product...").
Are you enjoying this?
Not really. I'm mostly wanting to make sure that people have the appropriate perspective on what they have a right to expect from which party.


Bill

Greetings

Well, everyone else's time is worth nothing to me ... but I am worth a pretty penny. :)

Man, my dad always thought like that ... everyone else gets minimum wage to do stuff he wants ... but he had to get his $80/hr at the time ... 20 years ago ...

Regards

I'm sure that soon there will be a new version with more features and simpler operation. :)

I get the feeling that some don't want this tool to be available to the diy calibrator. Why so? :confused:

I think it's great that Pioneer-Sencore release this. Why should I go spend thousands of dollars to get this tool that until now has only been available in Pro versions, packaged with other software that I don't need.

Feedback on the pro's and cons of this version, what needs to be added, fixed etc. in future versions would help.

Cheers

I'm sure that soon there will be a new version with more features and simpler operation. :)
For free? Care to bet? :)

I get the feeling that some don't want this tool to be available to the diy calibrator. Why so? :confused:
It is available. People should look at this as a glass that is half-full, rather than half-empty. I have a perspective on the likelihood of whether the rest of the glass will be filled, but that is a separate question.

I think it's great that Pioneer-Sencore release this. Why should I go spend thousands of dollars to get this tool that until now has only been available in Pro versions, packaged with other software that I don't need.
Please re-read what I posted above. This is not that tool. The "thousands of dollars" tool is the ACP6500, and if Sencore released THAT tool for free, then I would be worried about whether the Earth was going to start spinning backwards, or whether everyone was going to suddenly have goatees (thing Star Trek: The Original Series and "Evil Kirk"). ;)

All that being said, I have been wrong before, and I will be wrong again. :)

Bill

Bill, your business model perspective is quite realistic.

Probabily (let's hope) they will end adding the missing controls (gamma, colour settings, hue, if not the filters).

As you've said it's a teaser, but I hope Pioneer won't spoil theyr reputation publishing something useless on theyr site.

The trade off could be having a "complete" teaser, that enables full customization and let users "SLURP!" thinking "imagine what I could acheive with fully automatic calibration.....why not going for full Sencore's tools?".

Would be good for us, for slurpy users, for Pioneer and Sencore!

Please re-read what I posted above. This is not that tool. The "thousands of dollars" tool is the ACP6500, and if Sencore released THAT tool for free, then I would be worried about whether the Earth was going to start spinning backwards, or whether everyone was going to suddenly have goatees (thing Star Trek: The Original Series and "Evil Kirk"). ;)

All that being said, I have been wrong before, and I will be wrong again. :)

Bill

:D Nah, don't think we'll have goatees. ...
I don't know if the C3 tool within the ACP6500 package, CalMAN Pro or Colorfacts Pro can be used on its own, but what I meant was why should I have to buy these expensive packages when I can use an ISF C3 tool in conjunction with HCFR for example.
I see the logic in what you think the Business strategy is in this situation. I guess until Joshk from Pioneer or someone from Sencore pitches in here we can only continue to discuss what might be or might happen in the future.

Best Regards.

Did you notice guys that in the application's window title bar there a phone number?

If sencore didn't agree to give support for suvh a utility why would they let Pioneer publish that phone number in the app?

Someone living in the states could, dial in? :rolleyes:

The number, 800-736-2673, is Sencore's generic switchboard (if there is something else, let me know -- I don't have a Pioneer Elite yet in my lab). To get to tech support, you generally need to go through your "sales engineer".

With that, I bow out of this thread.

Just stumbled across this thread through searching out calibration of Pioneer Plasmas.
Has anyone actually tried this application to get any results.
I notice blurtarsky says it does not include per input luminance etc. Woudl this mean if I gave it a shot on my Plasma it will effect the overall plasma, or just the ISF Day/Night options on each input.
I wouldn't want to say make the plasma a bit darker for night time viewing to infact make the plasma darker on every input with every user preset etc.

Does anyone also have any settings they have tried successfully for the ISF Night option? I would imagine these settings would be more generic for everyone if most people havea Night setting for watching movies with the lights set to a very low level, or completely off.

The utility is uncomplete; it looks like it is in the devlopment phase. Let's hope they keep on developing it.

Yeah I thought it was still in development, I was still keen to give it a try and get the ISF stuff appearing on my plasma just to getan idea of what happens. I wouldn't mind being able to do a calibration myself.

Do you think there is other comprehensive software that has a Pioneer profile in it for ISF Day and Night that can be purchased?

I find soo many contradicting listings of settings for Pioneers, all of which state they have D65 accuracy but all seem to tweak different picture presets like standard, user, movie, cinema, pureetc or the same preset but different settings.

I would be keen to test this stuff out and then get a common agreement on say an ISF setting for night that amateurs like myself can apply. I'm sure a professional ISF calibration isn't too hard if you have the right equipment, so we must be able to do a decent job ourselves if it's just to copy settings in.

Do you think there is other comprehensive software that has a Pioneer profile in it for ISF Day and Night that can be purchased?
And here I thought I was bowing out. We will have this in our Pro software in a follow-on release to the initial version we are working on now. Beyond that, from what we hear, the only other option is Sencore. Colorvision, by all reports, seems to have declined to continue development of the ColorFacts C3 remote software.

it might also be worth pointing out at this point that the ISF calibrated settings for one display will not be the same as for another....

it might also be worth pointing out at this point that the ISF calibrated settings for one display will not be the same as for another....

Is this because every panel is unique?

I would have imagined if each panel in the same model line was identical in performance, you could have calibrated it say ISF Night so that it's optimised for a lights out set up, which some people prefer when watching movies.

In saying that, I would stil be interested in trying to calibrate my plasma that way. The worst I can see happening is the ISF Day and ISF Night are incorrect but the other presets are untouched?

Yes each set is unique and so are all your sources (not as bad now we have more digital sources but even then some of these are pretty weird). These things are mass manufactured devices. They are not built to military specifications. They use parts with tolerance values that mean they will not all age or even leave the factory exactly the same.

You can end up with quite different calibrated settings on each input dependant on source on the same display........

That being said, there should be a statistical distribution around some things -- if you can correct for source irregularities. However, knowing where in the distribution your set lies yet again leads you to need to take measurements. In practical terms, you could be on one side of a distribution from someone else, use their settings and make your image measurably, visibly and demonstrably worse off than if you had left your set alone.

All of this is before we start questioning whether the settings themselves are really good or not. Not to put too fine of a point on it, but this gets to be like people buying a Ferrari, and then only wanting to put regular unleaded gas in it.

Bill

out of curiousity, seeing you both seem to know alot about this topic.
how can blacks be improved on 8G Kuros through ISF, is it simply lowering the light output through brightness or a special method only able to be done through ISF?

This is really interesting to me as I am now starting to think it would be good to get my set ISF calibrated.

You cannot improve how black, black is through ISF calibration (well you could if brightness is set too high but that isn't often the case). How black the set will go is set by how dark it is when the pixels are innactive...ie you turn down brightness and there is a point at which the pixel will not get any darker....but the average picture level will as things which should not be dark start getting crushed to black. All you can do is alter how low level, above black, detail is perceived and is visible.

Gordon

The utility is uncomplete; it looks like it is in the devlopment phase. Let's hope they keep on developing it.

I just tried using it on my 508XG and had no luck at all, nothing came up etc.
I have a USB to RS232 cable, then a female-female cable connected. Hooked up to the RS232 port on the back of the TV next to the aerial port.

It says online the 508XG supports this, but maybe it doesn't. I thought my set was similar to yours except no SCART or built in Digital tuner.

I was looking forward to seeing what happens haha, bummer

The serial cable you need to use is not a null modem one but one wired straight through. That may be why you have no comms.

Gordon

OK, I'm not too sure on the difference of these serial cables. I just grabbed one from my server room at work which I think was used for LAN management and a USB-Serial male cable.
Do you have any links to the sort of cable that would work?

Just googled and see how it works, see the null modem is like a cross over network cable. Must be what this cable is, bummer. I'll have to get a Male-Female adapter for the USB-Serial cable.

I'm almost sure I had some testing with a null modem + gender changer and it worked.

I'll have a look to my cable and tell you about it. My set is an Euro-508XD.

If only this thread could bring Pioneer to do something!

I'mean it's absolutely unreasonable to have your set outfitted to do something and need to spend 3kUS$ more just to have the opportunity to access the 3C interface...

It's nonsense.

I have a strong background in software development and I'm sure that such a piece of communication software is worth not more than 5/15k US$ if ordered to a software house, for custom development.

That means that Pioneer could simply have put "her" hand on it's purse and ask some custom development and give it for free.... user interface is zero-work, it's all about sending and receiving data from/to the TV. With a RAD tool would take 15days development....

Pioneer, are you reading??

Greetings

Perhaps you would volunteer your time to do this.

Pioneer made this available as a favor to the professional calibration community. They do not need it to sell their TVs. They sell just fine without it.

Regards

Michael, I do work allready, and I haven't got enough time now, to code.

I didn't want to be offensive with anyone but I was just makeing some considerations on what they did: for such a giant as Pioneer, it would have cost nothing to ask a software house to do the work instead of putting that useless, uncomplete tool on theyr site.

Greetings

In this case, they put it in the hands of the third party vendors. Who have decided not to step up to the bat ... except the Calman guys.

Still easy to say who can spend money ... when it isn't your money on the line. They don't need to make this interface available at all. The TV doesn't really need it to be calibrated. It calibrates just fine without it.

Sure it would be nice ...

Getting on Pioneer's back can just as easily make this type of interface go away. No one has a right to access this part of the TV. They provided the access as a gesture of goodwill ... (And ISF gets a commission out of it) ... so it already is costing them money to do so.

The ISF portion is also not supposed to be accessed by enthusiasts. IT was meant for the professional calibrator to make life easier. Demanding access here ... isn't that different than demanding access to the engineering menus of the TV.

What is Pioneer's motivation for doing so ... aside from additional false warranty claims as a result of doing this?

Regards

My vent was basically due to not-so-professional policy to publish such a utility.

As you say, they could simply do nothing instead of publishing a useless beta... while they did an "effort" to do something, and they could get completed the development and then publish something...

I'm almost sure I had some testing with a null modem + gender changer and it worked.

I'll have a look to my cable and tell you about it. My set is an Euro-508XD.


Yeah I had a USB-RS232 cable, then plugged a female-female Null modem cable into it. So I'm hoping that's why it didn't work. My tv is the Asian/South Pacific version of yours and on cnet asia it says ISF C3 ready. But the actual user manual has no mention of this except that the RS232c port on the back of the set is used for factory set up.

Did you get a chance to test your cable?

Yes, I've tested the dude with my cable and the Pio Sencore tool and could communicate with the TV... it beaheaves like getting into the service menu....

I've checked my cable but unfortunatelly it doesn't explain what type of cable it is here's the link to the producer's site (http://www.hamletcom.com/ProductDetails.aspx?sid=909ae80d55984ace92d4bb2beff3a7f8&ProductId=3490)

The producer states it is suitable for connecting to a modem, router....etc

My vent was basically due to not-so-professional policy to publish such a utility.
I walked through a scenario earlier that describes the business logic that might have led to the release of this particular tool. Given the plausibility of my scenario (even if it has more typographical errors than I would have liked), it does highlight an entirely professional thought process.

As you say, they could simply do nothing instead of publishing a useless beta... while they did an "effort" to do something, and they could get completed the development and then publish something...I highly suspect whether the tool is truly "useless", and while it may have bugs (I haven't tried it), calling a professional software developer's work "beta" is not the usual way I would choose to induce them to work harder. As an aphorism that is popular in the Southern US says, "you catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar."

My question, then, for those who seem upset is whether you would prefer to have Pioneer pull the tool entirely? Given the feedback, I certainly would consider it if I were the product manager.

Bill

The phrase "you get what you pay for" seems to fit here. Since you paid nothing for the utility, and Pioneer appears to have made no promises either written or implied to improve or support it (unlike the folks behind HFCR, which is also free), perhaps it's unrealistic to expect it to be equal to software that costs hundreds of dollars. Especially since the developer is a maker of test equipment that sells the same type of app for mucho bucks. Pioneer could have just as easily (and probably should have) called this demo software, for showing what-among other things-a professional with C3 software can do with your set. It isn't the first time they've done something similar. I'm reminded of their Advanced MCACC software. It looks good on paper, but only gives you the ability to graphically display the readings MCACC took of your audio system before corrections were applied. No post-correction info, no way to make changes and see how they impact, etc. You still need an RTA setup to do those things.

Yes, I've tested the dude with my cable and the Pio Sencore tool and could communicate with the TV... it beaheaves like getting into the service menu....

I've checked my cable but unfortunatelly it doesn't explain what type of cable it is here's the link to the producer's site (http://www.hamletcom.com/ProductDetails.aspx?sid=909ae80d55984ace92d4bb2beff3a7f8&ProductId=3490)

The producer states it is suitable for connecting to a modem, router....etc

yeah i had a cable just like that one, but connected to the male RS232 connector I had a Female-Female Null modem cable. So I think that's where the problem was. Pretty sure those USB-Serial cables would be a straight through one.

New ISFccc version available very soon. Perhaps days away. Check the ISF, Sencore and Pioneer web site for an update.

And yes, Sencore has updated functions, features and omited adjustment controls.

josh

ps, the cable is a F-D9 to F-D9, streight through. NOT A NUL cable.

Turbe, does controlCal works with Pioneer ISF c3?

I'll be releasing a Pioneer ISFccc Display Profile for ControlCAL soon (I do need to make a few internal changes to ControlCAL). The Display Profile will support Pioneer's 8th Generation Displays.

Besides the controls available in the current Sencore release, I'll be adding:

R-High (Drive)
G-High (Drive)
B-High (Drive)
R-Low (Cutoff)
G-Low (Cutoff)
B-Low (Cutoff)
Color Management R
Color Management Y
Color Management G
Color Management C
Color Management B
Color Management M

I'm not sure Y-Delay is needed unless I see posts requesting this. With the above Controls and Gamma Controls, it looks like I will run out of room with ControlCAL's "One Page Calibration Screen" and I will need to address this.

One major difference between ControlCAL's (loaded with a Pioneer ISFccc Display Profile) and Sencore's Application, ControlCAL will have an option to save your own Message (i.e. Calibrated by Your (Company?) Name or Calibrated with ControlCAL by Your (Company?) Name :D), though I may make this option only available in a Registered or Pro Version of ControlCAL. There is 4 lines (24 Characters each) to work with.

I need to decide if I will have different Profiles for each Region (North American, Europe etc.). I am pretty sure I'm going to release the ISFccc Profile(s) as Locked Profiles and have not decided what options will be available at each ControlCAL Registration/Activation (or lack of) Level. I'm open and willing to entertain specific Member's Interests/wish list(s). It may be best to release a Pioneer ISFccc Specific Version of ControlCAL, but I really would like to avoid this.

I you are interested in specific features, options and/or layouts, post them in the ControlCAL Forum Thread. Interested in testing?.... PM me or post in the Forum Thread.


-Shawn

Here is a pic of ControlCAL (next version) loaded with the new Pioneer 8G ISFccc Display Profile I am currently working on. Most likely, this version will be released as v1.41...

What you don't see is another small undocked window with the Gamma Controls and up to 4 additional buttons (3 used for the ISFccc Display Profile, ISF DAY MODE, ISF NIGHT MODE and SAVE SETTINGS. I may release this version and the Display Profile before the Gamma Controls are ready. There are other issues (and feature availability) I have yet to decide.

This Display Profile will be "Locked" - You will not be able to Edit/View the Display Profile's Configuration, Output/Input will not be displayed in the Terminal Window (Advanced Mode) and ConfirmSEND will be disabled. Now, before I get additional PM's asking why the Display Profile's Configuration will not be available, I'll post the reason here: It's simply due to Policies that I have agreed to.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104363&d=1205195736

[U]I'mean it's absolutely unreasonable to have your set outfitted to do something and need to spend 3kUS$ more just to have the opportunity to access the 3C interface...

It's nonsense.

I have a strong background in software development and I'm sure that such a piece of communication software is worth not more than 5/15k US$ if ordered to a software house, for custom development.

What would be reasonable to you ($)? :D


Why did they release such an uncomplete tool?

Besides saving your own custom String (which one of ControlCAL's ISFccc Display Profile will support), what other controls and/or functionality do you want?

Hi turbe,
it's nice from you to support the isf interface!

I'll reply in your thread to stay in topic

Here is a pic of the undocked Extras Window (ControlCAL has the Pioneer ISFccc Display Profile loaded) which has Buttons and Dedicated Gamma Controls.

Each Button can be configured independently, Enabled or Disabled and this Window is only Visible/Active if one of the Buttons or the Gamma Controls are Enabled. The Buttons with the Label "TEST" are not used (and not visible) in the ISFccc Display Profile.

Ignore the Gamma Color Combobox in the pic, I had this Control Enabled before I took the screencap (Pioneer does not require this option but it is used for other Manufacturer's Displays).

The Gamma Controls are 'Work in Progress' so the layout and options may change (though I have what I need for the 8G Pioneers).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104452&d=1205266662

Have you tried this on the NEC plasmas which support the ISFccc?

JoshK

is there any chance we get an updated firmware for our 8gs wich enables per channell (R,G,B,C,Y,M) saturation or luminance adjustament, eventually via ISF interface?

At the moment, this missing feature appears like being the biggest limitation to acheive top quality calibration

JoshK

is there any chance we get an updated firmware for our 8gs wich enables per channell (R,G,B,C,Y,M) saturation or luminance adjustament, eventually via ISF interface?

At the moment, this missing feature appears like being the biggest limitation to acheive top quality calibration

I've just read about Pioneer quitting plasma business.....KLONK!

Then you read it wrong. Pioneer is negotiating outsourcing their plasma panels. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, in fact it can even strengthen Pioneer in the end and they still keep electronics and software in house.

JoshK

is there any chance we get an updated firmware for our 8gs wich enables per channell (R,G,B,C,Y,M) saturation or luminance adjustament, eventually via ISF interface?

At the moment, this missing feature appears like being the biggest limitation to acheive top quality calibration

In a three primary system, if your primaries are accurate, and your grasycale is accurate, then any error in the secondaries ought to be due solely to issues in the color decoder. In other words, having CYM controls is generally not necessary from a color science standpoint.

Bill

PS: Yes, I know Lumagen has RGBCYM, but they also have to have a blending function to ajudicate how to handle the in-between points that takes a LOT of processing power.

In a three primary system, if your primaries are accurate, and your grasycale is accurate, then any error in the secondaries ought to be due solely to issues in the color decoder. In other words, having CYM controls is generally not necessary from a color science standpoint.

What you mean "if the primaries are accurate"?? Withouth having separeted (per channel) saturation controls you can only target one color correctly and sacrificy all the others... I think this is why Tom Huffman suggests in his guide to go for red, beacuse a wrong saturation here is very noticeable....

What you mean "if the primaries are accurate"?? Withouth having separeted (per channel) saturation controls you can only target one color correctly and sacrificy all the others... I think this is why Tom Huffman suggests in his guide to go for red, beacuse a wrong saturation here is very noticeable....

Let me try again. In a three primary display, if you edit the locations of your primaries so that they are accurate, and you calibrate your grayscale so that it is accurate, then any remaining error in your secondaries is due to error in the decoder (assuming a well-engineered display). In other words, a three primary system like you have with the Pioneer plasmas, you do not need CMS controls for Cyan, Magenta and Yellow since there are not distinct primaries for them. Instead, they result from a combination of the three primaries.

When you have a separate physical primary for the "secondaries", like what you see with some of the cheaper DLP FPs and more broadly in the DLP RPTV market, then it can make perfect sense to have a dedicated control for a "secondary" because that secondary is closer to a primary in terms of how it behaves. This is why the Lumagen Radiance design makes sense, even if most of the Radiance users are unlikely to have a >3 primary display connected to the machine in the near future (xvColor in 3 - 5 years is a different story).

BTW, I've tried to make some helpful suggestions in Tom's thread, but I've basically quit checking in on that thread.

Bill

ControlCAL DEVELOPMENT UPDATE:

v1.41 - Beta 2 Build 6 is in Limited Manufacturer Testing - Full Beta Test Group will be notified when a Version is available.
Dedicated Gamma Controls, 8 Buttons, 6 Additional Slider Controls (#13-#18) and Special Pioneer ISFccc Mode* including a matching Display Profile* for Pioneer 8th Generation Kuros (North American and European Models - other Regions may be included with v1.41 Final).
*Pioneer ISFccc Modes and Display Profiles are Locked Profiles and some or all features may only be available in a future ControlCAL REGISTERED and/or PRO Versions.

v1.41 - Beta 2 Build 7 is in Limited Beta Testing (Build 7 is not being released to every Beta Group Member).

More information is available Here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1011896

-Shawn

Sencore's 2.0 Version:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/Pioneer%20Elite%20Kuro%20ISF%20Toolkit%20v2.0.zip

EDIT: Direct Link

We will provide some support HERE (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11)

Can the Sencore utility for ISFccc allow an Elite 8G to be calibrated to 2.5 gamma? I'm asking because I'm thinking about getting a 9G. Up to 50,000:1 is amazing if true. That amount of on/off contrast would easily handle a 2.5 gamma. My current CRT HDTV direct view would become 100% obsolete contrast wise if the 50,000:1 cr number is true.

could the Isf c3 utilty be used on a non-elite kuro and if it could what else would i be able to tweak besides the greyscale. Sorry for the stupid question I am just starting out in calibrating my T.V.

could the Isf c3 utilty be used on a non-elite kuro and if it could what else would i be able to tweak besides the greyscale. Sorry for the stupid question I am just starting out in calibrating my T.V.

Non-Elite models do not support ISF modes so you can't use the ISF C3 utility. At least this was true for the 2007-2008 non-Elite Kuros... I don't know, yet, if the 2008-2009 models that are starting to appear now follow the same rule as last year's models.

It's not really much of a loss - the Kuro panels calibrate quite well without the ISF utility.

Can the Sencore utility for ISFccc allow an Elite 8G to be calibrated to 2.5 gamma? I'm asking because I'm thinking about getting a 9G. Up to 50,000:1 is amazing if true. That amount of on/off contrast would easily handle a 2.5 gamma. My current CRT HDTV direct view would become 100% obsolete contrast wise if the 50,000:1 cr number is true.


The ISF utility has no more Gamma range in it's adjustments than the User Menu settings. 8G panels topped out at 2.4 Gamma

But black level and Gamma are not paricularly intertwined. The 8G Pioneer Kuro panels top out at 2.4 Gamma with their impressive black level. I'm looking at a Samsung plasma that is nowhere near as dark as the Kuro panels, yet the Samsung is also producing a 2.4 Gamma curve after calibration and I could get the Samsung to 2.5, but frankly, 2.5 doesn't look as good as 2.4. So even with lighter blacks, the Samsung can produe a higher (average) Gamma than the very dark 8G Pioneer.