Anyone who is speculation on the future quality of Pioneer panels I only have one thing to say...

"Once you go Kuro you can never go back"

-Robert


:D I like my Kuro how I like my coffee...

I disagree with your assertion re the majority forum view in the past. Panny had just as much, if not more, support than Pio until the 7th gen Pios, when many (but by no means a clear majority) thought that Pio had gained the lead. Pios at that point had better scaling and processing but were often crtiicised for yielding a "soft" picture and having vibrant but somewhat overdone colors (on the nonElites). The Panny's superior black levels were the differencemaker for a lot of people (inc. some ISF calibrators) prior to the Kuros, at which point Pio pulled away. Feel free to check some of Rich Harkness' old posts in this regard.

I was wondering when someone would envoke the poster boy for Panny PDP's. RH should have been paid royalties for his glowing reports of his 42"er. Look, it's been years...and I mean years (which is a lifetime in Consumer Electronics) since Panny's glory days, and even then it was always a big debate. Panny has been a Chevy and Pioneer has been a Lexus for a long time now.

I think the more appropriate analogy would be panasonic = honda and pioneer = lexus, considering that panasonic is going to be providing the panels from now on ;-)

I think the more appropriate analogy would be panasonic = honda and pioneer = lexus, considering that panasonic is going to be providing the panels from now on ;-)

first of all, you probably mean that would make Panasonic = toyota and Pioneer = Lexus, otherwise you're analogy is wrong on several levels (first the relationship you're alluding to is between Toyota and Lexus, secondly Panasonic is still one of the top performers, so a honda or even a toyota of plasmas they are in my mind not).

minus the whole attempt at the supplier relationship, i'd say a better analogy is that a Pioneer = a Lexus LS and a Panasonic = a Lexus ES

i'd say a better analogy is that a Pioneer = a Lexus LS and a Panasonic = a Lexus ESIMO a more accurate comparison is Panasonic = Yaris (http://www.toyota.com/yaris/index.html) & Pioneer = Avalon (http://www.toyota.com/avalon/index.html). ;)

Who cares about the car comparisons, that's pointless and really means nothing!
Just as long as none of them are made like the new "Smart" car, that a lot of people seem to desire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biYLn47VwJs

:D I like my Kuro how I like my coffee...

hot and black, with the spoon in it?

Anyone who is speculation on the future quality of Pioneer panels I only have one thing to say...

"Once you go Kuro you can never go back"

-Robert

Now THAT is one of the funniest things I have ever heard on this forum... lmao

Good One Robert!

Everyone, I finally bought the PRO-150FD ELITEafter debating for months between the panny and sammy, but clearly nothing compares to the Pio ELITE. My Lexus Plasma will ship tomorrow. I cant wait to get this. I am finalizing the order today. WOOHOO!!!

I have a question for anyone and everyone, Can the PRO-150FD be used with any speakers without the receiver being on? Please help. Thanks.

I have a question for anyone and everyone, Can the PRO-150FD be used with any speakers without the receiver being on? Please help. Thanks.The PRO-150FD includes a:

"17 Watt Stereo Digital Amplifier w/TruBass 2-Way Stereo Speakers"

Dnice,

Any thoughts or info on the integrated LAN and/or media box for the 9gs?

The PRO-150FD includes a:

"17 Watt Stereo Digital Amplifier w/TruBass 2-Way Stereo Speakers"

Can I install my own cable and mount these somewhere else, say like on my entertainment center? Thanks.

I was wondering when someone would envoke the poster boy for Panny PDP's. RH should have been paid royalties for his glowing reports of his 42"er. Look, it's been years...and I mean years (which is a lifetime in Consumer Electronics) since Panny's glory days, and even then it was always a big debate. Panny has been a Chevy and Pioneer has been a Lexus for a long time now.

Have you ever seen a Panny properly calibrated by an expert? To see the much better color, blacks and contrast then the out of the box settings or what you can come up with by eye using a calibration disc, you would not call the Panny a Chevy. While I love the Kuros and have access to a 60" for testing and am getting a 9G, you have not seen a Panny do what it is capable of until it is calibrated by someone who knows what he is doing at least the commercial lines which can deliver excellent PQ.

So we're doing this again? Look Panny is definetly not a Chevy.

You have to consider everything that comes after panny, and i find it much more apt to think of it as Panny being a Lexus IS or ES and Pioneer being a Lexus LS.

Can I install my own cable and mount these somewhere else, say like on my entertainment center? Thanks.Yes you can.

The PRO-150FD includes a:

"17 Watt Stereo Digital Amplifier w/TruBass 2-Way Stereo Speakers"

I know the new thin bezel 9G Kuro will not have a tuner and speakers. Will it at least still have a built in Amplifier so you can attach your own speakers and watch TV without using your receiver? Does anyone know?

I know the new thin bezel 9G Kuro will not have a tuner and speakers. Will it at least still have a built in Amplifier so you can attach your own speakers and watch TV without using your receiver? Does anyone know?Doubtful, which is to be expected for a display that is essentially a very high-priced monitor.

it should have some audio outputs... but you will need amplified speakers.

I know the new thin bezel 9G Kuro will not have a tuner and speakers. Will it at least still have a built in Amplifier so you can attach your own speakers and watch TV without using your receiver? Does anyone know?

IMO a more accurate comparison is Panasonic = Yaris (http://www.toyota.com/yaris/index.html) & Pioneer = Avalon (http://www.toyota.com/avalon/index.html). ;)

I would say Panasonic = Mazda Miata & Pioneer = Honda S2000 :D ...and Runco = Porsche Boxter

I know the new thin bezel 9G Kuro will not have a tuner and speakers. Will it at least still have a built in Amplifier so you can attach your own speakers and watch TV without using your receiver? Does anyone know?

My best guess, and also from other comments read from those viewing it at 2008 CES, Pioneer will return to their design of using an external media receiver (MR). I've always liked the idea of an external MR that included the video processor, tuners, amp, all connections, etc..., and the fact only one cord goes up to the display itself w/o a lot of dangling wires & cords. Just seems like a very clean design and functionality about the MR.

no speakers why not thats stupid.. will this set have pip.. i would think that pioneer should add this unless they wanted to make it cheaper...

Everyone, I finally bought the PRO-150FD ELITEafter debating for months between the panny and sammy, but clearly nothing compares to the Pio ELITE. My Lexus Plasma will ship tomorrow. I cant wait to get this. I am finalizing the order today. WOOHOO!!!

lucky dog

it should have some audio outputs... but you will need amplified speakers.

Why would it need "audio outputs" if it doesn't have an internal tuner?

Sounds like a monitor....which is what I've been doing with my last two displays that have speakers and tuners.

I know the new thin bezel 9G Kuro will not have a tuner and speakers. Will it at least still have a built in Amplifier so you can attach your own speakers and watch TV without using your receiver? Does anyone know?
No amplifier. Monitor only.

-Robert

Dtv have you any input on what kind of speakers and where they will be placed on the regular 9g models?Please dont say that awful bottom speaker design is coming back. thanks Matt

Dtv have you any input on what kind of speakers and where they will be placed on the regular 9g models?Please dont say that awful bottom speaker design is coming back. thanks MattThey will be the in the same locations as the current 8G models.

No amplifier. Monitor only.

-Robert

Greetings everybody,
New poster from France, I'm interested in the 9g monitor version.
Do you know which input will be available (HDMI present?)? Is it planned in Europe? When? (even US release date).
Thanks in advance,

lucky dog

Its not about luck, it about paying the piper. :confused:JK. Why don't you buy one? That is what credit cards are for. :D

No amplifier. Monitor only.

-RobertThe bigger question is, will they include a stand or not? It doesn't sound like they're pegged as full on "commercial" displays, so perhaps they might?


ron

The bigger question is, will they include a stand or not? It doesn't sound like they're pegged as full on "commercial" displays, so perhaps they might?


ron

So am I reading this right, that the 9G will have no amplifier and stand?
I am glad that I bought the 8G then.

So am I reading this right, that the 9G will have no amplifier and stand?
I am glad that I bought the 8G then.

They're talking about the low-profile bezel 9G models. These will be very similar to the PRO-FHD1 in the fact that they do not have a built-in tuner or speakers or come with a stand. They are strictly monitors to display the picture. The "normal" 9G models will come with a tuner, speakers, and a stand.

I believe just the thin bezel models will have no tuner,stand ,speakers or amplifier

I believe this only applies to the commercial units, not the consumer units. I believe the hope of a lot of us who have a home theater set up (receiver/external speakers) is that the commercial units will be cheaper than their consumer counterparts. Why pay for speakers that you will never use?



So am I reading this right, that the 9G will have no amplifier and stand?
I am glad that I bought the 8G then.

The bigger question is, will they include a stand or not? It doesn't sound like they're pegged as full on "commercial" displays, so perhaps they might?


ronStand will be sold separately. There will be Elite and non-Elite versions.

Stand will be sold separately. There will be Elite and non-Elite versions.Kinda figured that would be the case. Oh well, hopefully they will not charge an arm and a leg for the stand then. It's interesting that they will have Elite and non-Elite versions as well. Thanks for the info


ron

will the one with tuner and speakers cost what the msrp says 3500 bucks..... so when can we expect the consumer model to come out july???

Everyone, I finally bought the PRO-150FD ELITEafter debating for months between the panny and sammy, but clearly nothing compares to the Pio ELITE. My Lexus Plasma will ship tomorrow. I cant wait to get this. I am finalizing the order today. WOOHOO!!!

Mind if I ask where you got it? They have been sold out everywhere. And when I did find one, they wanted almost full price for it, instead of coming off the MSRP. Thanks and enjoy!!

I just got my March allocation of PRO-150FDs and the very last shipment will be the April allocation.

-Robert

ok a few questions will the 5020 have a memory card slot where i can use to view pictures... also will the 9g kuro be as bright as the new panny plasma that will be coming out.. in terms of brightness how do the pioneer compare to lets say the xbr4 from sony...

no one knows any of that yet.

No amplifier. Monitor only.

-Robert

Will it have a "Media Receiver" as an option?

Mind if I ask where you got it? They have been sold out everywhere. And when I did find one, they wanted almost full price for it, instead of coming off the MSRP. Thanks and enjoy!!

Sure, Please PM me and I will send you the info. This goes for anyone and everyone who wants the very best deal on a PRO-150FD Elite Kuro. I will be glad to tell you. Thanks.

So, where are we at now as far as best guesstimates as to when the 9G's will be available for purchase? July,August, Sept, what?

My bet is going on June for the first 9G panel to be available for consumer purchase. Before this we will see a press release from Pioneer and reviewers testing these panels. After this we will see the roll-out of the entire line-up over the following months.

You will see the full press release for the 9G Kuros no later than 5/12/08. Europe will be the first to get the 9Gs (very late May/early June followed by the US mid to late June. Reviews will not be out until June and will probably come from the UK, France, or Sweden first.

those with experience with new Pio's - will they retail for MSRP at first, or will i be able to get one for a more reasonable price out of the gate? i've noticed that for instance Pio's with MSRP at $3.5K can be found for $3K easy, and even less.

You will see the full press release for the 9G Kuros no later than 5/12/08. Europe will be the first to get the 9Gs (very late May/early June followed by the US mid to late June. Reviews will not be out until June and will probably come from the UK, France, or Sweden first.

First 8G review come from Sweden. Who knows maybe 9G too.
And first time in Europe you can see it at High End 24.04.-27.04. 2008 in Munich. Hopefully press release will be there too.

No amplifier. Monitor only.

-Robert

With that said, the 8G is the way to go. That is why I bought mine right away, before they are all gone. May I add, that I got a sweet deal on it to including shipping and insurance. I couldn't find anyone who could touch this price.

which will be the first set to come up the 5020...is it always best to wait a few months after launch just incase there are any bugs...I know with other manufacturers you always have to be carefull at the very beginning till there bugs get ironed out...

what?
the 9G has speakers and a stand.

With that said, the 8G is the way to go. That is why I bought mine right away, before they are all gone. May I add, that I got a sweet deal on it to including shipping and insurance. I couldn't find anyone who could touch this price.

those with experience with new Pio's - will they retail for MSRP at first, or will i be able to get one for a more reasonable price out of the gate? i've noticed that for instance Pio's with MSRP at $3.5K can be found for $3K easy, and even less.

check with the AVS forum sponsors and you should get a pretty good deal. I was third on a preorder list from one of the AVS forum sponsors who sell the Pioneer Kuro and Kuro Elites back in August 2007 for the Pioneer Kuro Elite PRO150FD and I got a fantastic deal. The PRO150FD were in very short supply so it took a few weeks to get it delivered but for the excellent service from the dealer, the quality of the PRO150FD display itself as well as the fantastic price it was well worth a little wait :).

You will see the full press release for the 9G Kuros no later than 5/12/08. Europe will be the first to get the 9Gs (very late May/early June followed by the US mid to late June. Reviews will not be out until June and will probably come from the UK, France, or Sweden first.

Will the releases be staggered or will all the models come out at the same time? I'm not talking about regular panels with tuners and speakers.

In other words, when do you forsee the Elite 60 inchers being released in the States? Will it be June/July or will we have to wait until August/September?

Thanks

check with the AVS forum sponsors and you should get a pretty good deal. I was third on a preorder list from one of the AVS forum sponsors who sell the Pioneer Kuro and Kuro Elites back in August 2007 for the Pioneer Kuro Elite PRO150FD and I got a fantastic deal. The PRO150FD were in very short supply so it took a few weeks to get it delivered but for the excellent service from the dealer, the quality of the PRO150FD display itself as well as the fantastic price it was well worth a little wait :).

The problem is now the wait is even worse on those :( And the 110's is starting to be the same scenario.

what?
the 9G has speakers and a stand.

You mean they will be included with the regular consumer models?

Will the releases be staggered or will all the models come out at the same time? I'm not talking about regular panels with tuners and speakers.

In other words, when do you forsee the Elite 60 inchers being released in the States? Will it be June/July or will we have to wait until August/September?

ThanksStaggered release....151FD Elite Kuro late July/mid August.

which will be the first set to come up the 5020...is it always best to wait a few months after launch just incase there are any bugs...I know with other manufacturers you always have to be carefull at the very beginning till there bugs get ironed out...

That stands for any set including the 9G's may I add.

Edit: I could not wait two months+ after the new 9G's come out. I had to buy the 8G now. With my calibration, it will look just like the 9G's anyway, without the huge price tag. I love taking chances.

Staggered release....151FD Elite Kuro late July/mid August.


Drooling. I imagine it will be the same retail price as the 150fd but hopefully lower. Infinite, perfect black levels. What agony..

Staggered release....151FD Elite Kuro late July/mid August.

That is too close to football season for me. So I had to get one now (8G).
Thanks for the update.

Drooling. I imagine it will be the same retail price as the 150fd but hopefully lower. Infinite, perfect black levels. What agony..

With an expert calibration, you can get perfect black levels with an 8G. So I am not waiting and couldn't take that chance on the price tag when they first hit the market. What about bugs for the first two months??:confused:

With an expert calibration, you can get perfect black levels with an 8G. So I am not waiting and couldn't take that chance on the price tag when they first hit the market. What about bugs for the first two months??:confused: I've had the 150 for several months now.It's a great tv...Relax, you can stop second guessing your purchase in every other post...You did well

With an expert calibration, you can get perfect black levels with an 8G. So I am not waiting and couldn't take that chance on the price tag when they first hit the market. What about bugs for the first two months??:confused:


You might want to research the extreme contrast ratio that will be available in the 9G.

The specs on the 8g is 20:000:1 ratio but the 9G will be infinite 100:000:1+.
That's shutting off completely, all luminance. So even with expert calibration the 8G is not capable of perfect black levels. The 9G will have to be seen to be believed but that's the expectation.

The 9G is NOT infinite black. It's close but not quite there.

That will come with the 10th generation. But I agree that we are beginning to reach the limit of diminishing returns with black levels. I'm doubtful I would be able to tell the difference between 9G and 10G for example unless it was in a completely dark and black room and I don't usually watch T.V. in those conditions.

You might want to research the extreme contrast ratio that will be available in the 9G.

The specs on the 8g is 20:000:1 ratio but the 9G will be infinite 100:000:1+.
That's shutting off completely, all luminance. So even with expert calibration the 8G is not capable of perfect black levels. The 9G will have to be seen to be believed but that's the expectation.

Pioneer is supposed to reduce the black level even more in the 9G but it's the 10G (with outsourced glass) that is supposed to include some of the ECC tech. the 9G will not be 100,000:1 CR.

Are you guys sure the 9G will not have the extreme contrast? I have heard the 9g has 80% better black levels = 100:000:1

The 9g wont be slim, but should have the extreme contrast, zero idle luminance.

I've had the 150 for several months now.It's a great tv...Relax, you can stop second guessing your purchase in every other post...You did well

Thanks Izub. Not second guessing myself. I am just excited about my purchase and to see the future 9G's and even the 10G's. I love new technology. I guess, I was just worried about the money that I spent on a TV. OUCH!!!

Are you guys sure the 9G will not have the extreme contrast? I have heard the 9g has 80% better black levels = 100:000:1

The 9g wont be slim, but should have the extreme contrast, zero idle luminance.

nope, dnice said the blacks will be so low it may seem like the ECC but no 9mm or ECC tech till 2009 10G releases.

Here's a quote from a pioneer rep. He say's 80% difference. If true how much can you improve.


"The new sets do have a much Higher Contrast ratio than our Current lineup ( another 80% increase in Contrast.) As far as 1080p goes I have heard a rumored that we will be doing just 1080p but it is just that at this point. I will get confirmation closer to the release date. I hope this helps you."

It seems as though Pioneer is outdoing themselves again. They are planning to incorporate their extreme contrast conceptinto their mainstream slowly it seems. The 1080p does indeed look like it is here to stay, not that much practical benefit will come with it, but as a marketing tool, yes.

I am looking forward to purchasing a g9 to compare to the 5080 (as I do most high-end teles), but I still remind the current state of things: The Pioneer PDP-5080HD is still the best value going and will only continue to better as it moves more towards clearance (looks like late spring to early summer of 2009), perfect for the budget-minded videophile"

The 1080p does indeed look like it is here to stay, not that much practical benefit will come with it, but as a marketing tool, yes.


Not to start up another 1080p vs 768p/720p debate, but I see it differently.
I think there is a benefit from 1080p. And I am the owner of a pdp5080hd myself.

Not to start up another 1080p vs 768p/720p debate, but I see it differently.
I think there is a benefit from 1080p. And I am the owner of a pdp5080hd myself.

I agree, and that's the way I see it too. For me, 768p was always HD-Lite. I want all the resolution I can get...PERIOD. I know rez is not the bees-knees for PQ, but if all things being equal then I'll definitely take the choice of higher rez. Besides the bump in rez, 1080p is where consumer electronics is headed and will be the norm in the very near future. With the advancements and proliferation of 1080p Blu-Ray Players, Gaming, and streaming internet video I would not advise going any other way than 1080p at this stage.

You will see the full press release for the 9G Kuros no later than 5/12/08. Europe will be the first to get the 9Gs (very late May/early June followed by the US mid to late June. Reviews will not be out until June and will probably come from the UK, France, or Sweden first.

~ 7 weeks till a press release, that's not too bad. D-nice I have to thank-you (again) for all this information. You are keeping me sane in the wait for the 9G.

I was pretty close in my assumptions, and these timelines certain fall in place with final 8G shipments (April).

nope, dnice said the blacks will be so low it may seem like the ECC but no 9mm or ECC tech till 2009 10G releases.

I believe what D-Nice said was that there are three technological components to the ECC technology and that 2 out of 3 would be included in the 9G models. The third component (which, when combined with the other 2 components, will make blacks perfectly black) and the 9mm profile will not be available until (at least) the 10G models. (Whether and how the outsourcing of the glass manufacturing to Panasonic impacts that schedule remains to be seen - myself, I'm inclined to believe it won't have an impact.)

You might want to research the extreme contrast ratio that will be available in the 9G.

The specs on the 8g is 20:000:1 ratio but the 9G will be infinite 100:000:1+.
That's shutting off completely, all luminance. So even with expert calibration the 8G is not capable of perfect black levels. The 9G will have to be seen to be believed but that's the expectation.

It sounds like Pioneer won't be announcing contrast ratios anymore. For those who've seen the 9Gs say the difference in a darkened room on the 9Gs is as big of a jump for the 9Gs over the 8Gs as it was for the 8Gs over the 7Gs. You will still see a glow though but I'm guessing it's minimal. Hopefully the 9Gs are brighter too but that's yet to be confirmed.

Don't forget that viewing in a totally dark room and one with a fair amount of light can be substantially different if the screen itself is lighter and reflects room light. Then the perceived contrast ratio goes down.

JimP, ^^ actually a little ambiant light is good for viewing plasma panels. As long as the light is not hitting the panel itself the display will actually look better than a totally black room.

Totally dark rooms are best for FPT.

-Robert

dealer,

I agree, but its a careful balancing act having some room illumination and keeping it off of the screen. I have a 6070 (7g). Having some room lighting carefully placed to keep it off the screeen as much as possible definately is the best combination for evening viewing.

My point is that the contrast ratio of a screen in a totally dark room vs one with lighting that you can't keep off the screen will yield you different results due to the amount of light reflecting off the dark areas of the screen.

Here's a quote from a pioneer rep. He say's 80% difference. If true how much can you improve.


.0008:p

JimP, ^^ actually a little ambiant light is good for viewing plasma panels. As long as the light is not hitting the panel itself the display will actually look better than a totally black room.

Totally dark rooms are best for FPT.

-Robert

This is true for panels that do not produce excellent black levels. However, watching with the lights off is a personal preference. I cannot wait until I have a Panel with blacks good for lights out viewing.

- Rich

You will see the full press release for the 9G Kuros no later than 5/12/08. Europe will be the first to get the 9Gs (very late May/early June followed by the US mid to late June. Reviews will not be out until June and will probably come from the UK, France, or Sweden first.

This is great news. I had never heard of the Kuros until May last year. I went to a conference where I entered a Kuro demonstration - by accident-and I'm fully convinced ever since. For this reason, I'm going to this conference again this year - although Pioneer hasn't confirmed its attendance yet but the conference takes place the week of May 12th:-)

how much will the 5020 consumer model go for ... i think 3500 is a steal for msrp which means you can have it for about 3200 probably after the first month its out.. do we think late june for the 5020...

Are you guys sure the 9G will not have the extreme contrast? I have heard the 9g has 80% better black levels = 100:000:1

The 9g wont be slim, but should have the extreme contrast, zero idle luminance.The 9G Kuros are not the ECC prototype that was shown at CES 2008. Yes, the minimum luminance levels will be lower than anything we have ever seen on any plasma before, but it won't be "immeasurable" like the ECC prototype.

The 9G will be both brighter and blacker than the current 8G Kuros. They won't be as bright as the new Panasonics, however they are going to literally slaughter them in the minimum luminance level category.....complete blowout.

And before anyone tries to skew hat I just said in the Panny comparison, I'm speaking of the maximum brightness the panels can do. If one calibrates both sets, they will be equal in overall brightness.......barring 100% full white test patterns.

D-Nice how would you characterize the image quality/difference on a calibrated 8G and 9G 1080p panel? Reading about the improved black levels for the 9G models and as an owner of the 110FD (which I love with your settings), I'm curious to know what the overall impact to the picture is going to be with a similar model 9G.

Don't know. I won't know until I actually have one in hand. I do know that the picture will be more 3 dimensional due to the improved contrast...especially the blacks.

The 9G Kuros are not the ECC prototype that was shown at CES 2008. Yes, the minimum luminance levels will be lower than anything we have ever seen on any plasma before, but it won't be "immeasurable" like the ECC prototype.

The 9G will be both brighter and blacker than the current 8G Kuros. They won't be as bright as the new Panasonics, however they are going to literally slaughter them in the minimum luminance level category.....complete blowout.

And before anyone tries to skew hat I just said in the Panny comparison, I'm speaking of the maximum brightness the panels can do. If one calibrates both sets, they will be equal in overall brightness.......barring 100% full white test patterns.

Is it correct to assume that Panasonic is using 5 lumen technology to increase brightness to compete with LCD in the showroom and Pioneer is working on image quality via reducing black levels until they hit 0 in the 10G?

Still, I need a bigger than 65" display. Until that is available with immeasurable blacks (or damn close), I guess I have to wait impatiently ;)

- Rich

Don't know. I won't know until I actually have one in hand. I do know that the picture will be more 3 dimensional due to the improved contrast...especially the blacks.

I kind of had a feeling you'd say that - that's what I was afraid of... I'll have to stop reading the threads lest I get "upgraditis"...:)

Is it correct to assume that Panasonic is using 5 lumen technology to increase brightness to compete with LCD in the showroom and Pioneer is working on image quality via reducing black levels until they hit 0 in the 10G?No. Panasonic isn't using 5 lume anything in their 11G models. Thats coming with the 12Gs. Pioneer is working on the "home theater experience". With that in mind, LCD type brightness is completely irrelevant.

Ah......that includes wifi and external hard drive eh?

D-Nice,

How about gradations in grayscale. Seems that the 7g has some black crush.

D-Nice,

How about gradations in grayscale. Seems that the 7g has some black crush.Did you mean to say 8G. If so, that isn't correct. Kuros don't have any black crush, and people need to educate themselves on gamma curves and how they affect the "appearance" of shadow details.

Is it correct to assume that Panasonic is using 5 lumen technology to increase brightness to compete with LCD in the showroom and Pioneer is working on image quality via reducing black levels until they hit 0 in the 10G?

Still, I need a bigger than 65" display. Until that is available with immeasurable blacks (or damn close), I guess I have to wait impatiently ;)

- RichJust a gues but I think Panasonics may have "increased" power consumption to achieve the higher brightness.

Great news... On all fronts. D-Nice, will you be able to say if the 10gs (with 10-lumen tech 9mm thick etc.), due to the outsourcing of glass, may be delayed to the next gen? or any quality issues due to the glass.

Just a gues but I think Panasonics may have "increased" power consumption to achieve the higher brightness.No, they just retained the same power level. Remember they placed their MgO2 layer inside the cells instead of on top and widened the cells for the 11Gs.

Don't know. I won't know until I actually have one in hand. I do know that the picture will be more 3 dimensional due to the improved contrast...especially the blacks.

Any idea if the screen will be improved from an anti-glare aspect?

No, they just retained the same power level. Remember they placed their MgO2 layer inside the cells instead of on top and widened the cells for the 11Gs.Wouldn't that increase efficiency though? From the recent power consumption readings on the new panasonics it sure looks like the ABL circuit has been adjusted up.

Wouldn't that increase efficiency though? From the recent power consumption readings on the new panasonics it sure looks like the ABL circuit has been adjusted up.Well, be both know companies can put a "spin" on the term efficent. With a more efficient panel, you can boost that ABL and retain the previous gen's power ratings, right?

Well, be both know companies can put a "spin" on the term efficent. With a more efficient panel, you can boost that ABL and retain the previous gen's power ratings, right?Very true. When you said that 5 lumen tech wasn't in the 11G I took that as no change in efficiency which would then require a boost in power to achiev higher brightness. So I guess there must be some boost in lm/w, just not to 5lm/w.

Correct. I think Panasonic is in the 3.9lm/w range now.

Correct. I think Panasonic is in the 3.9lm/w range now.How efficient are the 9g pioneer sets?

I've been spending a month or so pouring over the posts of the Pioneer sets with great anticipation to replace my Sony 53XBR300. The Pro-150FD has really caught my attention. By the time I'm ready to pull the trigger this spring, I'm guessing they won't be available anymore, in favor of the the Pro-151FD

I was under the impression that the 9G black level was only slightly better than the already fantastic 8G.

After seeing this article on Engadget, I'm wondering if the 9G picture looks more like 10G than 8G? Was the brightness on the 8G turned up to maximum for effect?

I'll provide the link in my next post.

Here is the link showing what I think is the 8G versus 10G.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-pioneers-extreme-contrast-concept-plasma/

I've been spending a month or so pouring over the posts of the Pioneer sets with great anticipation to replace my Sony 53XBR300. The Pro-150FD has really caught my attention. By the time I'm ready to pull the trigger this spring, I'm guessing they won't be available anymore, in favor of the the Pro-151FD

I was under the impression that the 9G black level was only slightly better than the already fantastic 8G.

After seeing this article on Engadget, I'm wondering if the 9G picture looks more like 10G than 8G? ...

the 9g is supposed to drop the black level 80% from the 8G so it should be closer to the 10G than the 8G.

some of the Pioneer Kuro Elite dealers who are AVS forum sponsors just got their march shipments of Pro150FD and supposed to have one last shipment in April. If you want a unit now you might still find one before the supply is out for good. The guess on the Pro151 is August/September if you can or have to wait that long :):).

Here is the link showing what I think is the 8G versus 10G.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-pioneers-extreme-contrast-concept-plasma/

Very cool comparison pix - I'm starting to understand.

Here is the link showing what I think is the 8G versus 10G.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-pioneers-extreme-contrast-concept-plasma/

MAN!
Those pics make me want to cry!
Why isn't the ECC in the 9G's? It just seems they would put the concept into the 9G's since they are the next to be released. But I am sure they have thier reason for this. i just hate that we have to wait until 2009 for the 10G's. But by that time OLED may be a competitor but who knows for sure.
I am not too familiar with OLED tech.
Not trying to get off topic but How are the black levels with OLED? Could OLED give Kuro a run for its money in the black level categorie? If so, How much longer before we will see an OLED display in a large size (40-60inches).
Will the difference between the 9G's and the 10G's really be that big as far as black levels go?
I currently have a 5080 to use until I can get a 1080p 60 incher.
I had my sights on the 6010 but decided to wait for the 9G's since I got 2 dead 6010's in a row.
Now I wonder if I should just go ahead wait for the 10G's. But I don't think I can wait that long.
I wish I could fast forward my life to when the 10G's are availible. I mean what if I have a heart attack or something and die before the 10g's come out? that would be a trajedy.
All I would ask is that they put a 10G kuro in the Kasket with me.lol

Can I suggest an 11" OLED? It would fit better - and probably be as big as you need under the circumstances.


Edit: How's this one: ;)

Vashti, aren't you suppose to add a smiley face w/that post?....:D


Perfect, that's the PC spirit!

Unlike many here, I don't have room for more than the 42" and I'm wondering if any one has an idea of it's release date. I'm saving for an all cash purchase.

pioneer is not going to make a 42 inch i think they will start at 50

pioneer is not going to make a 42 inch i think they will start at 50

Correct

the 50 inc doesnt take up alot of space compared to others flat panels.. pioneer do have thin bezels..

pioneer is not going to make a 42 inch i think they will start at 50

To quote a Pioneer VP Exec. Paul Meyhoefer.."we will continue to target high-end home theater enthusiasts". To me, this translates into larger display screens.

Unlike many here, I don't have room for more than the 42" and I'm wondering if any one has an idea of it's release date. I'm saving for an all cash purchase.

Thanks for replying.
So the last pioneer 42" pdp 4280 and pro 950? ugh!!!

Actually, ^^^ it's the Elite model PRO-950HD.

-Robert

Thanks for replying.
So the last pioneer 42" pdp 4280 and pro 940? ugh!!!

Unless you are trying to cram a 42" PDP into some entertainment cabinet, which I question the wisdom of doing due to high heat issues, then I wonder what's the big deal with bumping up to a 50"er??

Thanks for replying.
So the last pioneer 42" pdp 4280 and pro 940? ugh!!!

Unfortunately it seems like it, it's a shame a 42" 9G with 1080p was my likely intended purchase......

The rumors of the 44" were wrong?

Here is the link showing what I think is the 8G versus 10G.


Have a look in particular at the 3rd photograph on the engadget page. (I'm not able to provide a link as I have too few posts.) This can't possibly be right?

If the 8G Pioneer -- pretty universally acknowledged to have the best black levels of televisions currently available -- is this ridiculously bad, there's no way I could justify to myself buying this year.

The only sensible conclusion I can draw from these images is that there is a mass delusion about current plasma display technology, or they are comparing with a seriously poorly calibrated 8G.

The only sensible conclusion I can draw from these images is that there is a mass delusion about current plasma display technology, or they are comparing with a seriously poorly calibrated 8G.

Or that the image was deliberately overexposed to accentuate the difference between the two sets.

only Europe will get the 44"

the 50" is the best bang for the buck anyways.

a lot of people even think the 50" is small.

The rumors of the 44" were wrong?

just get a 9G.... or wait it out for the 10G.

you have to see them in person to really see the difference in black levels.
the 8G has the best blacks right now. then the 9G will be 80% blacker.

and the 9G will be out this year. 100% Pioneer.

you take a chance next year because the 10G will not be made by Pioneer.. the panel that is.

Have a look in particular at the 3rd photograph on the engadget page. (I'm not able to provide a link as I have too few posts.) This can't possibly be right?

If the 8G Pioneer -- pretty universally acknowledged to have the best black levels of televisions currently available -- is this ridiculously bad, there's no way I could justify to myself buying this year.

The only sensible conclusion I can draw from these images is that there is a mass delusion about current plasma display technology, or they are comparing with a seriously poorly calibrated 8G.

Having seen the 8G, the prototype for the 9G and the 10G at CES, wait for the 9G, it is that much better. I am not sure the wait is worth it for the 10G. It is without a doubt for the 9G.

Thanks for the advice, JWhip. I have been planning to buy in Fall 2008 for three years now, so I'm reluctant to put it off another year. :)

It will likely be a toss up between this year's 65" Panasonic and the 60" Pioneer, depending on -- as always -- price. I'm really eager to read the reviews and, of course, see the models in person.

that's what I am doing.

but for the bang for the buck I am looking at the
58" Pany 800U/850U,
Samsung 58"
Pioneer Elite 9G 50"
and I will buy it around Black Friday. (Fall)

fall of 2008 will be a great time...
but there is a major step going to happen with the 10G
only time will tell.

Thanks for the advice, JWhip. I have been planning to buy in Fall 2008 for three years now, so I'm reluctant to put it off another year. :)

It will likely be a toss up between this year's 65" Panasonic and the 60" Pioneer, depending on -- as always -- price. I'm really eager to read the reviews and, of course, see the models in person.

To quote a Pioneer VP Exec. Paul Meyhoefer.."we will continue to target high-end home theater enthusiasts". To me, this translates into larger display screens.

If it doesn't, then the target market would be pretty small. Here I am Pioneer looking for a 70 to 85 Inch Plasma with super blacks and great performance. Come and get me!! :p

- Rich

Correct. I think Panasonic is in the 3.9lm/w range now.


D-Nice;

On the 9g sets, do you know whether Pioneer will be addressing either the 'buzz & blob' issues that (some) current model owners have experienced :confused:

Or that the image was deliberately overexposed to accentuate the difference between the two sets.

I firmly believe that they horribly calibrated the 5010 in that picture to show off the ECC - there's just no possible way the 8Gs black levels look that way even in a pitch black room.

Here's a pic I took of my 5010 vs a Samsung 5084 (left).

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff156/BriS2K/5084v5010-blackcomparison.jpg

just get a 9G.... or wait it out for the 10G.

you have to see them in person to really see the difference in black levels.
the 8G has the best blacks right now. then the 9G will be 80% blacker.

and the 9G will be out this year. 100% Pioneer.

you take a chance next year because the 10G will not be made by Pioneer.. the panel that is.

But 80% deeper blacks only if you viewed a blank input in a completely pitch black room.... ;)

I firmly believe that they horribly calibrated the 5010 in that picture to show off the ECC - there's just no possible way the 8Gs black levels look that way even in a pitch black room.

Here's a pic I took of my 5010 vs a Samsung 5084 (left).



That is an 8G in the Picture??
Man, I can barley make out where the screen ends and the bezel begins.
I would have to agree with you. They must have cranked up the brightness in that picture to show off the ECC. Becasue your picture is much darker than the one showing the ECC.

Not trying to knock Pioneer, but doesn't it seem that every year the comparison looks about the same?

So, any word on a 60" or 65"? My 50" is really looking small these days.

Many people in Poland have pioneer LX608 and the big problem in our tv forums is weak brightness. Do you know how many % the brightness will be more then 8G in new 9G ?

I firmly believe that they horribly calibrated the 5010 in that picture to show off the ECC - there's just no possible way the 8Gs black levels look that way even in a pitch black room.

Here's a pic I took of my 5010 vs a Samsung 5084 (left).
Incorrect. We had long discussions about those pictures months ago. The photographer used a 6 second exposure time to take those pictures. Pioneer did not boost the brightness in any way.

That is an 8G in the Picture??
Man, I can barley make out where the screen ends and the bezel begins.
I would have to agree with you. They must have cranked up the brightness in that picture to show off the ECC. Becasue your picture is much darker than the one showing the ECC.

His 5010 pic shows better black levels than what it does in person. There is still an obvious glow on the 8Gs and much more so than that pic. I'm hoping the 9Gs will be close to what his pic looks like.

His 5010 pic shows better black levels than what it does in person. There is still an obvious glow on the 8Gs and much more so than that pic. I'm hoping the 9Gs will be close to what his pic looks like.

You will only notice the faint glow if your watching in a completely dark room. Otherwise, with any light source in the room including a normal table lamp with a low W bulb, the panel will look black as my pic. Also consider the monitor settings that you're using to look at the picture. Shown on my laptop, the picture looks accurate to me.

Having seen the 8G, the prototype for the 9G and the 10G at CES, wait for the 9G, it is that much better. I am not sure the wait is worth it for the 10G. It is without a doubt for the 9G.

Interesting but could you be more explicit? The 9G is much better in which domains? blacks i suppose? colors? brightness? motion? electronics?
Have you seen a demo or a movie?

Thanks

Have a look in particular at the 3rd photograph on the engadget page. (I'm not able to provide a link as I have too few posts.) This can't possibly be right?

If the 8G Pioneer -- pretty universally acknowledged to have the best black levels of televisions currently available -- is this ridiculously bad, there's no way I could justify to myself buying this year.

The only sensible conclusion I can draw from these images is that there is a mass delusion about current plasma display technology, or they are comparing with a seriously poorly calibrated 8G.the picture is at a 6 sec. exposure time at ISO 1600

All i can say is I'm dying to finally unwrap my Bladerunner ultimate on blueray disk when the 9g kuro's come out :) (I can't even bear to think of watching it until then)

So, any word on a 60" or 65"? My 50" is really looking small these days.

yes, there should be the 60" models with the regular 9G Kuro 6020FD and the Kuro Elite Pro151FD probably mid to late summer relase. and mention of some thinner bezeled commercial models (no tuner, no stand, no speakers) later this year.

maybe the 10G will bring a larger panel then 60" when Pioneer outsources their panels.

yes, there should be the 60" models with the regular 9G Kuro 6020FD and the Kuro Elite Pro151FD probably mid to late summer relase. and mention of some thinner bezeled commercial models (no tuner, no stand, no speakers) later this year.

maybe the 10G will bring a larger panel then 60" when Pioneer outsources their panels.

Hopefully mid than late, but I say this every year :)

yes, there should be the 60" models with the regular 9G Kuro 6020FD and the Kuro Elite Pro151FD probably mid to late summer relase. and mention of some thinner bezeled commercial models (no tuner, no stand, no speakers) later this year.

maybe the 10G will bring a larger panel then 60" when Pioneer outsources their panels.

So the 60 inchers will be out later than the 50 inchers??
How come?
I don't think I can wait that long. I may have to buy a 5020 to hold me over until the 6020 comes out.
So has there been any official word for when each particular model will be released and the MSRP pricing, or is all the release dates people are mentioning just speculation or information from insider sources??

You will only notice the faint glow if your watching in a completely dark room. Otherwise, with any light source in the room including a normal table lamp with a low W bulb, the panel will look black as my pic. Also consider the monitor settings that you're using to look at the picture. Shown on my laptop, the picture looks accurate to me.

It depends on what your definition of "faint" is. Still there's enough to make an 80% improvement of the 9Gs over the 8Gs a big deal. As far as picture settings go only brightness is going to affect the glow and anything at 0 or below isn't going to make blacks blacker.

Also what's funny is the glow shows up more on my laptop screen at home than did on my CRT monitor at work :p.

So the 60 inchers will be out later than the 50 inchers??
How come?
I don't think I can wait that long. I may have to buy a 5020 to hold me over until the 6020 comes out.
So has there been any official word for when each particular model will be released and the MSRP pricing, or is all the release dates people are mentioning just speculation or information from insider sources??

the sales numbers and the yeilds favor the 50" so they bring them out a little earlier then the 60" models.

until Pioneer has an official press release it is speculation.

I think last year the Pioneer USA press release with the eight 8g models, the expected month release dates along with msrp pricing was done on May 7th.

I think last year the Pioneer USA press release with the eight 8g models, the expected month release dates along with msrp pricing was done on May 7th.
Do you or anyone else happen to remember when the 60 inch Elites actually began becoming available to the end customer? I understand why electronic companies have this lag between product announcement and product availability, but it still drives me nuts if it's something I've been waiting on to appear!

Shutterman, ^^ September '08.

-Robert

Shutterman, ^^ September '08.

-Robert

Correct me if my memory is fading but the 6010FD came in earlier right than the Elites 60? And I think you mean 07 :)

Sorry Roman and Shutterman, I mis-read your question. Yes, the very first Elite PRO-150FDs shipped the end of August '07.

So we are expecting the first of the two models of 9G Elite 60" models to ship very late August '08.

-Robert

so when will the 5021 ship.. july???? people say that msrp might be 3500 but i dont know why that sounds as rather cheap to me, especially when the samsungs 52 inch 650 series msrp for about.. I have a feeling the msrp will be 4000 for the 50 non elite...

so wil the 5121 be there cheapest model... the 5080 last year was there cheapest correct.. are we expecting the fd models and elite models to be what there offering...

so when will the 5021 ship.. july???? people say that msrp might be 3500 but i dont know why that sounds as rather cheap to me, especially when the samsungs 52 inch 650 series msrp for about.. I have a feeling the msrp will be 4000 for the 50 non elite...

Possibly as early as the end of June for the first non Elite 50" model. No prices are announced yet, but we'll hopping for a MAP of $4,000.

BTW, I never use the work cheap when referring to any Pioneer panel as they are all excellent values, but far from cheap.

-Robert

the rumors seem to have 2 50" 9G 1080p models and 2 60" 9G 1080p models coming out this summer, the Pioneer Kuro 5020FD and a 6020FD as well as the Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro111FD and Pro151FD. so yes, the 5020 would be the least msrp Pioneer plasma model and hopefully they will be out in June.

then maybe the thinner bezeled commercial elites?? later like Nov??

I am hopping for $3500 or less for the 5020fd and $4500 or less for the 111fd.

you can get a 6010 for a little more than 4 grand right now.

and they are selling pany and samy 58" 1080P's for around 3 grand right now.

Possibly as early as the end of June for the first non Elite 50" model. No prices are announced yet, but we'll hopping for a MAP of $4,000.

BTW, I never use the work cheap when referring to any Pioneer panel as they are all excellent values, but far from cheap.

-Robert

word has it that it will be 3500 msrp.. but that sounds unrealistic if it is im jumping on hat big time.. My wife will not let me spend more than 3500 bucks on a tv.. I guess I will be using my 10 percent off best buy coupon and my 300 dollars of gift certificas to lower the price plus if i bundle it with a blue ray player best buy will give me a better price i bet...

Possibly as early as the end of June for the first non Elite 50" model. No prices are announced yet, but we'll hopping for a MAP of $4,000.-Robert
I hope they are able to maintain the early MSRP projections. However, given the ever plunging dollar, and the miserable state of affairs of their negative profit margins, it makes me wonder. I know the marketing/PR folks (which I suspect is probably the source of these early price projections) would love to see the price lowered as much as possible. But the reality of it is that you can squeeze just so much cost out of the system. After that you're selling below cost or squeezing dealer's margins to nothing...yikes!:eek: (Just kidding you on that last comment, Robert.)

so what are the projected 3500 or 4000...... if so my wife would have a cow if she new i spend that much

the rumors seem to have 2 50" 9G 1080p models and 2 60" 9G 1080p models coming out this summer, the Pioneer Kuro 5020FD and a 6020FD as well as the Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro111FD and Pro151FD. so yes, the 5020 would be the least msrp Pioneer plasma model and hopefully they will be out in June.

then maybe the thinner bezeled commercial elites?? later like Nov??

I thought the thin bezel, no tuner or speaker models were coming out sooner than November?

John

Possibly as early as the end of June for the first non Elite 50" model. No prices are announced yet, but we'll hopping for a MAP of $4,000.

BTW, I never use the work cheap when referring to any Pioneer panel as they are all excellent values, but far from cheap.

-Robert

Any guesstimate on a non elite 60"?

if you are going to wait that long... might as well get the 10G

I thought the thin bezel, no tuner or speaker models were coming out sooner than November?

John

if you are going to wait that long... might as well get the 10G

lol, no s**t

John

Incorrect. We had long discussions about those pictures months ago. The photographer used a 6 second exposure time to take those pictures. Pioneer did not boost the brightness in any way.

D-Nice,

I've scanned the Pioneer threads, used the search function and the discussion of the engadget photos has eluded me. Would you or someone else please help direct me to the discussion? I'm quite curious how the exposure time would make the 8G to 10G black levels appear as dramatic as they seem. I’m really a newbie when it comes to photography.

Any guesstimate on a non elite 60"?

End of August for the very first allocation.

-Robert

Okay, I'll admit I'm a newbie when it comes to all aspects of TVs. All I know with certainty is I'm quite impressed with the Pioneer sets (PRO 1150HD & PDP-6010FD) I've seen with my own eyes at Ultimate Electronics, here in Colorado. I'm torn between the Pro-150 and the hype surrounding the 9G or 10G versions. I never thought buying a TV would be so difficult. Seven years ago it was a no brainier when I purchased the Sony 53XBR300 at Listen Up.

I feel like I just came out of cryogenic suspension.

D-Nice,

I've scanned the Pioneer threads, used the search function and the discussion of the engadget photos has eluded me. Would you or someone else please help direct me to the discussion? I'm quite curious how the exposure time would make the 8G to 10G black levels appear as dramatic as they seem. I’m really a newbie when it comes to photography.

I think this was it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=971342&highlight=ECC

Sorry Roman and Shutterman, I mis-read your question. Yes, the very first Elite PRO-150FDs shipped the end of August '07.

So we are expecting the first of the two models of 9G Elite 60" models to ship very late August '08.

-Robert

I'm thinking the Olympics might exert some pressure to get them out a bit earlier. Hey, we can dream. Right?

hey guys,
What happened to Roman from invision displays??
I tried to message him about buying a 4280 for a friend and he no longer takes messages and I also noticed that he is no longer on the invisions website under the team members.
Did he move on to bigger & better things?

hey guys,
What happened to Roman from invision displays??
I tried to message him about buying a 4280 for a friend and he no longer takes messages and I also noticed that he is no longer on the invisions website under the team members.
Did he move on to bigger & better things?

Yes, but he is around here still as "Roman O."

Hello... If i may, i'd like to open the floor to wild speculation.

It seems like the latest rumors for the 9G's are the usual 50/60" models w/ incremental improvements. To give a little background on me, i've been waiting to buy a TV for quite some time now. I was really hoping for a 70" model, but that seems out of the cards for pioneer this year. So i'm really torn between impatience (i've been waiting a looooonnnngggg time) and really wanting a 70" w/ GREAT product quality (ie the Kuro).

So does anyone think (or have any reason to think) that next year there will be a 70" 10G in the picture? I really like the idea of the 10G's with their 'infinite contrast' and rumored 10Lumen tech, but PQ wise, it seems like if there isn't going to be a 70" in the picture then the PQ of the 9G would be good enough for me and maybe i should just 'settle' for a 60" 9G.

Again, rumors/gossip/wild speculation encouraged. I'm sorta just thinking out loud i guess.

(and my thoughts are unfortunately that they won't have the 70" until maybe the 11 or 12G models. I guess i'm thinking that from a business stance, with all of the significant improvements in PQ that they will be making in their 10G model, there's no reason for them to try and differentiate their product any further by producing a huge 70 or 80" model that will probably not have huge sales anyway. groan... someone please convince me otherwise)

Another 80% reduction in minimum luminance levels is "incremental"? Interesting.

So does anyone think (or have any reason to think) that next year there will be a 70" 10G in the picture? I really like the idea of the 10G's with their 'infinite contrast' and rumored 10Lumen tech, but PQ wise, it seems like if there isn't going to be a 70" in the picture then the PQ of the 9G would be good enough for me and maybe i should just 'settle' for a 60" 9G.

Again, rumors/gossip/wild speculation encouraged. I'm sorta just thinking out loud i guess.

(and my thoughts are unfortunately that they won't have the 70" until maybe the 11 or 12G models. I guess i'm thinking that from a business stance, with all of the significant improvements in PQ that they will be making in their 10G model, there's no reason for them to try and differentiate their product any further by producing a huge 70 or 80" model that will probably not have huge sales anyway. groan... someone please convince me otherwise)

And I am sure you want cheap too???

And with all that Pio technology in a Panny display.

Why not start a dedicted thread to the subject (wild rumors/ gossip/ speculation on 10 Gs) since this one is about 9Gs?

Looks like he became a forum sponsor himself with a link at the bottom of the page:

http://www.buybestplasma.com/

And you can PM him at Roman O. So check him out there.

Congrats Roman, your great customer service has always been appreciated and I'm sure it will continue! Best wishes on this endeavor!

Russ


hey guys,
What happened to Roman from invision displays??
I tried to message him about buying a 4280 for a friend and he no longer takes messages and I also noticed that he is no longer on the invisions website under the team members.
Did he move on to bigger & better things?

Looks like he became a forum sponsor himself with a link at the bottom of the page:

http://www.buybestplasma.com/

And you can PM him at Roman O. So check him out there.

Congrats Roman, your great customer service has always been appreciated and I'm sure it will continue! Best wishes on this endeavor!

Russ


And selling elites as well interesting!!

Greetings

if you guys can't carry on a civil discussion, you will be asked to leave the thread/ and could receive infraction points

post(s) deleted

D-Nice * The 80% reduction is an even greater bonus for 9G.
Can you please verify if I will be able to use the new 9G Thin Elite Tru2Way with Comcast Knoxville when this PDP comes out later this year?
(ie Will non-major markets support video-on-demand via a 2-way cable card inserted in the new seperate Pioneer tuner box without using their Moto crap boxes ? I have been waiting on this due to better Pio HDTV tuner vs Moto.)

* One more please? Would you wait another year on the 10G ECC given I have waited for 5 years already for 60" thin Elite with seperate tuner and Tru2Way ~ 5k street ? I have many indirect windows with plantation shutters and am concerned regarding day-time brightness and reflections through shutter slits. I hoped 10G 10 lumens brightness and potential glare improvements may be worth even another years wait for a 15 year premium TV type person? Could improve reflections with tilting bracket, but this will ruin the thin-look?
(ie It sounds like my TV is here with 9G, and will 10G be that much better for above?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
M-Cards are compliant with the Cablecard 2.0 spec and when used with an Ocap capable cablebox or TV (Ocap is also a part of Tru2Way), they are fully capable of everything you listed above. The SA 8300HDC and 4250HDC cableboxes have been out since last year in my area. Care to explain how these boxes work just like their predecessors as niether will work without that M-card being inserted in the back? There is also a Samsung Ocap cablebox out in the wild with Time Warner that uses M-cards and Time Warner's "Navigator" software. Care to explain how that one works?

I know plenty of people who do not have a DVR and have plasmas. Just because you would not have HD without a DVR doesn't mean others won't.
==================================================

Another 80% reduction in minimum luminance levels is "incremental"? Interesting.

D-Nice * The 80% reduction is an even greater bonus for 9G.
Can you please verify if I will be able to use the new 9G Thin Elite Tru2Way with Comcast Knoxville when this PDP comes out later this year?
(ie Will non-major markets support video-on-demand via a 2-way cable card inserted in the new seperate Pioneer tuner box without using their Moto crap boxes ? I have been waiting on this due to better Pio HDTV tuner vs Moto.) The slim and thin 9Gs will not have cable cards slots. Only the regular 9Gs will. As far as tru2way, if you local Comcast issues M-Cards (aka cablecard 2.0) without cableboxes, then yes.

* One more please? Would you wait another year on the 10G ECC given I have waited for 5 years already for 60" thin Elite with seperate tuner and Tru2Way ~ 5k street ? I have many indirect windows with plantation shutters and am concerned regarding day-time brightness and reflections through shutter slits. I hoped 10G 10 lumens brightness and potential glare improvements may be worth even another years wait for a 15 year premium TV type person? Could improve reflections with tilting bracket, but this will ruin the thin-look?
(ie It sounds like my TV is here with 9G, and will 10G be that much better for above?)I'm not waiting on 10Gs. I cannot give a recommendation for what you should do as it is your money and waiting time.

Anyone an idea whether Pioneer will have some new ICs for stuff like scaling / deinterlacing in the 9G? Or are the chips the same as in the 8G?

Same chips. New/revised software.

Same chips. New/revised software.

Probably too early to tell but will the difference be noticeable? I've been reading that one doesn't need a high-end external scaler when having an 8G ... will be difficult to improve substantially, I guess

Same chips. New/revised software.

D,

I take it that there is no firm word on anything larger than the 60" at this point, correct? Thanks.

only time will tell... but I was told the color pallet will increase...
what ever that mean.

Probably too early to tell but will the difference be noticeable? I've been reading that one doesn't need a high-end external scaler when having an 8G ... will be difficult to improve substantially, I guess

I have read 1,000's+ of post about the 8G, 9G and 10G (which is not much there yet). I can only see a small difference between the 8G and 9G. The major cosmetic change will be the 10G. Seriously, how much better can you get an ELITE KURO line? True facts that we all know? If you properly calibrate your 8G, then I see a very mininal change between the 8G and 9G.

I have read 1,000's+ of post about the 8G, 9G and 10G (which is not much there yet). I can only see a small difference between the 8G and 9G. The major cosmetic change will be the 10G. Seriously, how much better can you get an ELITE KURO line? True facts that we all know? If you properly calibrate your 8G, then I see a very mininal change between the 8G and 9G.I don't know but Phil Hinton (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688534) seemed pretty impressed.

there's no way i can wait another year to jump in - plus those extreme contrast 10G's will just be astronomical in price i'd think. 9G it is, for me. or if i find a really good deal on a 5010 or 110 i might do that, when the 9G's come out.

I don't know but Phil Hinton (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688534) seemed pretty impressed.

Thanks. This is a great write up, however, to me it shows mininal difference. Here is what else that I found:

Re: CES 2008 Round Up - Pioneer gives us the star of the show with Contrast Kuro.

Some info from another forum on the 9Gs. The person says they saw them at CES and got a little info.

They say the 9Gs are no brighter than the 8Gs
They say they didn't notice any tint difference between the 9Gs and the 8Gs but he 9Gs seemed to have better blacks.
Source: Taken from Boe Post #26.

Thanks. This is a great write up, however, to me it shows mininal difference. Here is what else that I found:

Re: CES 2008 Round Up - Pioneer gives us the star of the show with Contrast Kuro.

Some info from another forum on the 9Gs. The person says they saw them at CES and got a little info.

They say the 9Gs are no brighter than the 8Gs
They say they didn't notice any tint difference between the 9Gs and the 8Gs but he 9Gs seemed to have better blacks.
Source: Taken from Boe Post #26.Pioneer Kuro demos are designed to emphasize blacks...not brightness of whites. Pioneer actually calibrates their sets for these demos to the same, or nearly the same, peak light output.

Since you are skeptical, wait for the actual reviews of the 9Gs and/or get one yourself and compare it to the 8Gs.

Will we be able to adjust settings for individual inputs in modes other than USER, such as PURE on the 9g Elites? I'd really like the ability to have 1 pure setting for my Blu-ray player and another for an Oppo 983............and maybe 1 more for gaming:D.

not that i question the validity of any claims here, i'm just tossing this one on the pile - i was drooling at the 5010 last night at Best Buy and told the sales guy i was waiting for the new ones - he said the rep was just there that day and said new panels in June.

The Magnolia Dept at the Best Buy in Salem, NH is telling it's costumers that the 8G Pioneer will be the last Pioneer Plasma with Pioneer Panels.

to make a long story short... BB's saleman are total idiots.

not that i question the validity of any claims here, i'm just tossing this one on the pile - i was drooling at the 5010 last night at Best Buy and told the sales guy i was waiting for the new ones - he said the rep was just there that day and said new panels in June.

oh i know. i used to work there. i've been around the type. he was sincere in the fact that the rep was there today though, and the fact that he mentioned June which is what i'd heard on here anyway solidified my confidence in that fact. also, i don't believe he would've steered me with any info that would have caused me to wait on a set.

The Magnolia Dept at the Best Buy in Salem, NH is telling it's costumers that the 8G Pioneer will be the last Pioneer Plasma with Pioneer Panels.

to make a long story short... BB's saleman are total idiots.

they're just trying to push sales as much as possible

wrong.... he really believes it.

they're just trying to push sales as much as possible

wrong.... he really believes it.I agree, my local B&M is sold out of pioneer and they told me that you'll never see a high quality plasma like the 5010 ever again because Panasonic will now make Pioneer plasmas. A long time ago I stopped correcting these guys as they get annoyed when I tell them they are wrong.

I agree, my local B&M is sold out of pioneer and they told me that you'll never see a high quality plasma like the 5010 ever again because Panasonic will now make Pioneer plasmas. A long time ago I stopped correcting these guys as they get annoyed when I tell them they are wrong.

I agree also,
The last time I went to best buy the salesman tried to tell me not to buy Plasma because it burns in and that LCD has better black levels. LOL
the sad thing is that most people don't know any better and will leave with an LCD.

Yeah... the gf and I were at BB and I took her over to look at TV's. She was immediately drawn to the LCD's and didn't like the Plasmas at all. But then we found a Panny 700u that had a surprisingly good HD feed and after watching for a few minutes she was amazed. And then when I told her that I think plasma is the way to go, and that I spend nearly as much time researching HDTV's as she does looking at purses, she seems willing to let me make the decision of what to buy. (Er, that's for a TV, not a purse.) :D

9G, Here I Come!


The 8G Pio's at that BB were all tuned off that day; I'm assuming they were out of stock.

Their distribution amplifier was probably on the fritz.

That happened over here and after 6 weeks I complained to corporate. It was fixed the following week.

Pioneer should not have shown the 10g at CES - they lost a customer (me) for the 9g. I'll wait for the 6030.

Pioneer should not have shown the 10g at CES - they lost a customer (me) for the 9g. I'll wait for the 6030.Which will be made by Panasonic (in Mexico no doubt). :D

Best to get your 9G Kuro's before they are going... going... gone!

the glass will, from Pio's specs. the internals will be fully Pio-produced. i still don't get the problem there.

the glass will, from Pio's specs. the internals will be fully Pio-produced. i still don't get the problem there.No problem if you're looking for a Piosonic PDP or whatever else it morphs into. If it renders a better picture who cares?

My last TV from Mexico bit the dust in less than (5) years... once bitten twice shy.

Panasonics are really nice PDP's, and my clear #2 choice after Pioneer. i think people are worrying really early about something that could very well be a non-issue. Pio doesn't have magic at its factories. if they give them specs and they follow them, it's basically Pio anyway.

Panasonics are really nice PDP's, and my clear #2 choice after Pioneer. i think people are worrying really early about something that could very well be a non-issue. Pio doesn't have magic at its factories. if they give them specs and they follow them, it's basically Pio anyway.Since owning a Panasonic & a Pioneer PDP my impression is I favor the image rendered by the Pioneer display. I believe what most individuals are concerned about regarding Pioneer is they are slowly backing out of the PDP business and going LCD. My thought/fear is the 9G Kuro's may be the last "true" (made in Japan & America) Pioneer PDPs & by 2009 who knows what we'll see?

It is virtually impossible to manufacture a product that is less expensive and of higher quality (i.e. more features better build/components, etc.).

I am now eagerly awaiting the summer to see the 9G's.
If I need to I will sell my 1150HD and pony up. I shouldn't have too much trouble selling a six month old 1150HD at a nice discount.

It is virtually impossible to manufacture a product that is less expensive and of higher quality (i.e. more features better build/components, etc.).

sorry but that's just untrue. progress and bulk purchasing/manufacturing. that's why chips keep getting smaller and cheaper but better and faster.

Pioneer should not have shown the 10g at CES - they lost a customer (me) for the 9g. I'll wait for the 6030.

Likewise they lost a customer in me by not continuing to make their 42" size, as i would have been completely sold on even a 9G "4220"

Everyone,

I just got my new PRO-150FD in and it looks sweet. The born date is March 2008. Awesome!!!

Which will be made by Panasonic (in Mexico no doubt). :D

Best to get your 9G Kuro's before they are going... going... gone!Hmmm, since when did Panasonic build a PDP plant in Mexico? Please get your facts straight.

Hmmm, since when did Panasonic build a PDP plant in Mexico? Please get your facts straight.

I beleive though they are at least assembled in mexico arent they? i recall someone saying that on their panasonics it does say assembled in mexico on the back.

I wasnt even sure pioneer was exclusively all Japan, and that even it had some mexico-connection, but i dont know personally.

I have no buzzing noise at all not even when the colors change.

sorry but that's just untrue. progress and bulk purchasing/manufacturing. that's why chips keep getting smaller and cheaper but better and faster.I guess you haven't had an opportunity to price out an iX38 platform recently.

I beleive though they are at least assembled in mexico arent they? i recall someone saying that on their panasonics it does say assembled in mexico on the back.

I wasnt even sure pioneer was exclusively all Japan, and that even it had some mexico-connection, but i dont know personally.Panasonic PDPs are assembled in Mexico. The components for Pioneer PDPs are/were made in Japan & get/use-to-get assembled in the good old USA.

I am now eagerly awaiting the summer to see the 9G's.
If I need to I will sell my 1150HD and pony up. I shouldn't have too much trouble selling a six month old 1150HD at a nice discount.

How much of a discount, and how far away do you live from Florida???

Pioneer Elite Pro-111FD 50” Plasma TV or Sony KDL-52 XBR5 52" BRAVIA® XBR® 1080p LCD? Or Possibly the 46"

I'm torn, but I actually think I noticed significant red crush on the Sony at a local Circuit City. The only thing that scares me about the Pioneer is the possibility of burn-in and the amount of power it uses. We are so used to having a DVR that we frequently pause the TV to talk on the phone for long periods. I'm not sure how easy it'll be to break that habit, that and I've often dreamed of being able to go on line with my TV to play a PC game or surf the internet.

But the red crush on the Sony was pretty bad and while I think the Sony is the best LCD out I'm not sure I'd be happy with it. The Pioneer looks to have a more natural color. I understand the arguements on white levels but watching for a while I realised to much white just isn't normal and tends to hurt my eyes. It's hard to explain.

How much will the Pioneer raise my electric bill anyway?

...snip...
How much will the Pioneer raise my electric bill anyway?

...and how do you expect anyone to know that?:rolleyes:

How much of a discount, and how far away do you live from Florida???

We should talk in PM, though not needed for a few months and only then if the 9g's are worth it to me.
But off the top of my head @ six months old I would guesstimate ~33% off current sale price. Will depend a little on what the 9g's release at price-wise.
I should have enough extra funds to afford a 60" 9g.
I'll keep you in mind and you should do the same. Although I'm 'sure' that I'll make it known on the board if that time comes.

Pioneer Elite Pro-111FD 50” Plasma TV or Sony KDL-52 XBR5 52" BRAVIA® XBR® 1080p LCD? Or Possibly the 46"

I'm torn, but I actually think I noticed significant red crush on the Sony at a local Circuit City. The only thing that scares me about the Pioneer is the possibility of burn-in and the amount of power it uses. We are so used to having a DVR that we frequently pause the TV to talk on the phone for long periods. I'm not sure how easy it'll be to break that habit, that and I've often dreamed of being able to go on line with my TV to play a PC game or surf the internet.

But the red crush on the Sony was pretty bad and while I think the Sony is the best LCD out I'm not sure I'd be happy with it. The Pioneer looks to have a more natural color. I understand the arguements on white levels but watching for a while I realised to much white just isn't normal and tends to hurt my eyes. It's hard to explain.

How much will the Pioneer raise my electric bill anyway?



Sounds like the Pioneer is the choice for you. -imo
Unless you want blindingly bright and super whites, a plasma is the way to go.
And you are considering a spectacular one.
How long are we talking about with the DVR pauses? How frequent?

I'm not sure, maybe as long as 5 or 10 minutes max.

I've read that there will be two versions of this set, a thin version without speakers or tuner and a regular version with.
Will the regular version still use less power than the 8gs?

The system I plan on having includes:
Pioneer Elite Pro-111FD 50” Plasma TV
PIONEER VSX-1018TXH-K AUDIO VIDEO RECEIVER
Onkyo SKS-HT750B 7.1 Surround Sound Speaker System
OPPO DV-983H w/ ABT chips (1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI, SACD DSD, 7.1 Surround, USB 2.0)
Dish Network ViP722™ DVR
PlayStation 3 (60GB)

So with that said would I be better of with the thin bezel version that doesn't have the tuner? Because I'm leaning towards the version with the tuner but I know the thin bezel has to use even less power right? And likely have zero chance of having the buzzing problem.

I don't know on the power issue, but 5-10 minutes on a broken in plasma is 'nothing' to worry about - imo.
As far as which one of them, that is hard for me to say.....that's up to you.

Why would you think a thin bezel would have no chance of buzz issue?I have a 5 year old tunerless 433cmx and i can live with that but it does have an amplifier that allowed me to hitch up a small pair of speakers that works great for local news of other things that i did not want to fire up my huge surround system for.I understand the 9g thin bezel will not have an amplifier or a stand(433 has small feet that work great).Lack of these two items kills the purchase for me.I would love a thin bezel but leaving out these two options really limits plasma usage.

i've read that Plasmas take around $45-50 a year to run normally. so, if $3 a month is too much for you you probably shouldn't be looking at HDTV's anyway.

The slim and thin 9Gs will not have cable cards slots. Only the regular 9Gs will. As far as tru2way, if you local Comcast issues M-Cards (aka cablecard 2.0) without cableboxes, then yes.

I'm not waiting on 10Gs. I cannot give a recommendation for what you should do as it is your money and waiting time.Has Pioneer announced support for DCR+ or tru2way? I'd be interested to know the direction they're taking. I know we're all waiting on the FCC, but what does Pioneer support?

Why would you think a thin bezel would have no chance of buzz issue?I have a 5 year old tunerless 433cmx and i can live with that but it does have an amplifier that allowed me to hitch up a small pair of speakers that works great for local news of other things that i did not want to fire up my huge surround system for.I understand the 9g thin bezel will not have an amplifier or a stand(433 has small feet that work great).Lack of these two items kills the purchase for me.I would love a thin bezel but leaving out these two options really limits plasma usage.

I know the thin bezel model will have no amplifier, but someone mentioned it will have some kind of audio out that you can use with amplified speakers. Does anyone know if this is true?

i've read that Plasmas take around $45-50 a year to run normally. so, if $3 a month is too much for you you probably shouldn't be looking at HDTV's anyway.

Generally speaking, with the same size screen, LCD's can achieve up to 40% more efficiency, for an individual that can bring your $3/mo utility cost down to slightly less than $2/mo, but if you calculate the costs globally and the extra CO2 emissions you might start to become concerned.

I am not trying to make a political statement just stating the facts.

-Robert


Edit, each year PDP and LCD panels become more electrically efficient, and plasma technology make better improvements in this space, more than LCD. So go don't feel bad when you decide to enjoy the best possible panel to get the most enjoyment out of your investment.

Generally speaking, with the same size screen, LCD's can achieve up to 40% more efficiency, for an individual that can bring your $3/mo utility cost down to slightly less than $2/mo, but if you calculate the costs globally and the extra CO2 emissions you might start to become concerned.

I am not trying to make a political statement just stating the facts.

-Robert


Edit, each year PDP and LCD panels become more electrically efficient, and plasma technology make better improvements in this space, more than LCD. So go don't feel bad when you decide to enjoy the best possible panel to get the most enjoyment out of your investment.

Very true. When I was looking for a great TV, such as the Pioneer ELITE PRO-150FD, I did not consider the monthly electric bill, because I didnt care how much it would go up. For the PQ of the TV, I would pay anything to have it. It is like people who buy a high end SUV that only gets 10 miles to a gallon in gas, they dont care about the gas prices because they want to drive a nice looking SUV. ;)

When is the new Pioneer Kuro's going to come out? And how much better is it going to be?

When is the new Pioneer Kuro's going to come out? And how much better is it going to be?

Um, that's what this entire thread is discussing. Go back to Page 1 and start reading!








(Short answer is probably July-August, and nobody knows for sure.)

Pray for a 65".

Pray for a 65".

pray all you can but ain't happening in the 9G, better to pray for a 70" in the 10G and get a head start on saving the funds for it if it happens.

Pioneer does not make a 58" but does make a 60"

it has already been confirmed that if you pray for a 65" for the 9G, you would be wasting your time... because it will NOT happen.

Pray for a 65".

So after reading this entire thread, I've learned that the 9G 60" Kuro Elite will be coming in September. I'm in the process of buying a new home and I'm setting aside money for a new home theater system so if I'm incorrect about anything please let me know. Thanks guys.

Bummer. I had a 60" RP and went back to a 50" PDP. I was really hoping by now they would have a larger screen. Might have to check out the Panasonic when the time comes.

This was just posted by hdguru.com. A lot of it you've already heard/read, but there are a few new details here:

Pioneer

First the good news, Pioneer demonstrated its “Absolute Black” Kuro plasma and its super thin (9mm) plasma models. The Kuro was to be available in 2009 (according to sources) and provided a total black by eliminating any idling light discharge, meaning black areas in the image produce no light output and a theoretically immeasurable contrast ratio.

Now for the not so good news. Pioneer will cease the production of its Kuro plasma panels later this year. It will continue to sell plasma TVs by sourcing panels elsewhere and assembling them in Japan in two of the factories that have been producing its panels.

A number of websites have writing the news as the beginning of the end of plasma TV, this is not correct. Here are the facts.

Pioneer’s plasma factory is the most inefficient in the industry, producing only one panel at a time. By contrast, LG makes eight 42” panels off of one “mother” glass, while the largest Panasonic plasma factory produces up to nine 50” plasma panels at once.

Because of the high cost production, Pioneer could no longer sell plasma TV for a profit, even though their prices are considerably higher than any other brand. Pioneer has been losing money on plasma for the last two years.

Beginning in 2009 with 2009 model year product), Pioneer will purchase panels for its plasma TVs from another Japanese plasma maker (that means either Panasonic or Hitachi) and according to news reports, will provide its partner with its patent portfolio and intellectual property regarding “Absolute Black”, cell structure and its other unique plasma technologies.

As far as 2008 models, they will not be released until this July.

Pioneer’s plasma factory is the most inefficient in the industry, producing only one panel at a time. By contrast, LG makes eight 42” panels off of one “mother” glass, while the largest Panasonic plasma factory produces up to nine 50” plasma panels at once.

Because of the high cost production, Pioneer could no longer sell plasma TV for a profit, even though their prices are considerably higher than any other brand. Pioneer has been losing money on plasma for the last two years.

Beginning in 2009 with 2009 model year product), Pioneer will purchase panels for its plasma TVs from another Japanese plasma maker (that means either Panasonic or Hitachi) and according to news reports, will provide its partner with its patent portfolio and intellectual property regarding “Absolute Black”, cell structure and its other unique plasma technologies.

As far as 2008 models, they will not be released until this July.

I always thought the moaning and tearing of garments was OT. The choice was either panels outsourced for Pioneer or no panels at all.

Very interesting! So there is a chance that this could be a win/win for the consumer. Continued technology improvements now provided for multiple brands.

- Rich

So what will differentiate the Panasonic and Pioneer PDP's when they both have the same absolute black technologies, and Pioneer has the same glass.

Bronx

The working theory is that Pioneer has better processing. We really won't know until both units are out and some brave soul have them side by side for the eyeball1 test.

So what will differentiate the Panasonic and Pioneer PDP's when they both have the same absolute black technologies, and Pioneer has the same glass.

Who said that Panasonic will reach Pioneers black levels? :)

So what will differentiate the Panasonic and Pioneer PDP's when they both have the same absolute black technologies, and Pioneer has the same glass.

Bronx

The working theory is that Pioneer has better processing. We really won't know until both units are out and some brave soul have them side by side for the eyeball1 test.

Secret Sauce :p

There are many areas. The usual stuff: color accuracy, grayscale tracking, cosmetics. Then who knows, media playback, two-way cablecards, Separate media box... I guess we have to wait and see...

- Rich

So what will differentiate the Panasonic and Pioneer PDP's when they both have the same absolute black technologies, and Pioneer has the same glass.

Same glass does not translate into same equal TV's. The fantastic high-end Fujitsu PDP's used Panasonic glass too, but that's where the similarities ended. Same with Runco's PDP's, same with Bang & Olufsen's (B&O) PDP's. Panasonic has had a very long history of making glass for other mfg'ers. Hopefully, Pioneer will retain its high standards for video processing & internal electronics, and no one will know for sure until they start selling the Panny glass models.

This was just posted by hdguru.com. A lot of it you've already heard/read, but there are a few new details here:

Pioneer

First the good news, Pioneer demonstrated its “Absolute Black” Kuro plasma and its super thin (9mm) plasma models. The Kuro was to be available in 2009 (according to sources) and provided a total black by eliminating any idling light discharge, meaning black areas in the image produce no light output and a theoretically immeasurable contrast ratio.

Now for the not so good news. Pioneer will cease the production of its Kuro plasma panels later this year. It will continue to sell plasma TVs by sourcing panels elsewhere and assembling them in Japan in two of the factories that have been producing its panels.

A number of websites have writing the news as the beginning of the end of plasma TV, this is not correct. Here are the facts.

Pioneer’s plasma factory is the most inefficient in the industry, producing only one panel at a time. By contrast, LG makes eight 42” panels off of one “mother” glass, while the largest Panasonic plasma factory produces up to nine 50” plasma panels at once.

Because of the high cost production, Pioneer could no longer sell plasma TV for a profit, even though their prices are considerably higher than any other brand. Pioneer has been losing money on plasma for the last two years.

Beginning in 2009 with 2009 model year product), Pioneer will purchase panels for its plasma TVs from another Japanese plasma maker (that means either Panasonic or Hitachi) and according to news reports, will provide its partner with its patent portfolio and intellectual property regarding “Absolute Black”, cell structure and its other unique plasma technologies.

As far as 2008 models, they will not be released until this July.

I'm suspicious about the part of this report I've bolded. Has anyone seen a "news report" that says that Pioneer will share those things? I sure haven't and I've been scouring all reports I see for exactly that information. It certainly makes sense to me that that is exactly would happen (i.e., Pioneer sharing its key technologies with its manufacturing partner), but the bolded line should have started with "according to unconfirmed Internet rumors" instead of "according to news reports," at least until there is an actual news report that says so.

This news story was reported by the Japanese newspaper Nikkei Daily Business News and picked up by Reuters, Bloomberg and other news organizations


here is one link

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUST23020820080307

I also confirmed through industry sources that the companies listed were in negotiations with Pioneer.

From a practical point of view, by stopping production the only value to Pioneer's plasma patent portfolio is to offer it to one of the two Japanese plasma companies (BTW, their gov't does not want the IP exported to other countries)

The HD Guru

More news about European 9G

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6728801&postcount=26

munich here we come!

More news about European 9G

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6728801&postcount=26

Thanks enator, very interesting info ... any news on the 44"?

Thanks enator, very interesting info ... any news on the 44"?

It seems that you have to wait until October.

This news story was reported by the Japanese newspaper Nikkei Daily Business News and picked up by Reuters, Bloomberg and other news organizations

here is one link

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUST23020820080307

I also confirmed through industry sources that the companies listed were in negotiations with Pioneer.

From a practical point of view, by stopping production the only value to Pioneer's plasma patent portfolio is to offer it to one of the two Japanese plasma companies (BTW, their gov't does not want the IP exported to other countries)

The HD Guru


There is nothing in that linked news story that says Pioneer will "provide its partner with its patent portfolio and intellectual property regarding 'Absolute Black', cell structure and its other unique plasma technologies."

The closest I've seen in a news report is the Russ Johnston interview in Sound and Vision, where he said:

"We will have some specification requirements for our module, and I'm sure that they will learn a few of our trade secrets, but none of those decisions have been made. We're far enough into the discussion with Matsushita that we're confident we will have them as a third-party supplier for modules in 2009." and "You're going to hear from everybody on the Matsushita side, 'We can make a Kuro panel.' They may learn some things on one of the core elements of the panel, but they're not going to have the others."

But saying Matsushita will "learn" a few of Pioneer's "trade secrets" from the glass module manufacturing specification is a far cry from saying they will be provided Pioneer's patent portfolio and intellectual property.

That said, I agree with you that from a practical standpoint, Pioneer will likely license Matsushita to manufacture and sell the main Kuro patented elements under the Panasonic mark, because I don't believe Matsushita would agree to manufacture panels for the Pioneer mark unless Matsushita was getting that benefit. I just haven't actually seen a news report that says that that's what is going to happen - just speculation. If you have one, I'd love to see it.

That said, I agree with you that from a practical standpoint, Pioneer will likely license Matsushita to manufacture and sell the main Kuro patented elements under the Panasonic mark, because I don't believe Matsushita would agree to manufacture panels for the Pioneer mark unless Matsushita was getting that benefit. I just haven't actually seen a news report that says that that's what is going to happen - just speculation. If you have one, I'd love to see it.

Did you see one from Sharp and Sony or any of the other manufacturers?
Don't hold your breath ;)

- Rich

It seems that you have to wait until October.

Do you know if it will be announced in April/May?

That said, I agree with you that from a practical standpoint, Pioneer will likely license Matsushita to manufacture and sell the main Kuro patented elements under the Panasonic mark, because I don't believe Matsushita would agree to manufacture panels for the Pioneer mark unless Matsushita was getting that benefit.

I agree. In a previous statement from Pioneer that I saw somewhere here, they stated that the "Absolute Black" technology was part glass and part processing. I would fully expect that Pioneer will in effect 'give' the new glass technology to Panasonic, but keep the processing tricks to themselves.

WIN-WIN-WIN: Panasonic gains some tech and sells more panels; Pioneer gets less-expensive panels than they can make themselves (but still cutting-edge tech based on Pio specs); and the consumer wins most of all because Pioneer prices will undoubtedly fall due to (a) the cheaper glass, and (b) competitive pressure from the fact that Panasonic TV's will be closer to Pio blacks. The only question is whether Pioneer can really succeed with that business model, of being just a little bit better and a little bit more expensive than Panasonic. Basically, it seems like they are positioning themselves to be an 'affordable' Fujitsu: for dedicated HT enthusiasts willing to pay a premium for advanced processing. I doubt the Pio 10G's will be double the price of the top-line Panny's, once they share similar glass. :cool:

Much Ado About Nothing.

Anyone else scratching their head asking why Pioneer couldn't manufacture their glass any more efficiently?

Anyone else scratching their head asking why Pioneer couldn't manufacture their glass any more efficiently?Because they chose not to invest in more efficient equipment. Pioneer creates motherglass for one panel at a time where as Panasonic can get multiple panels out of one motherglass sheet. Add to that additional baking steps that Panasonic does do and you get inefficent manfacturing.

This is why Pioneer could not drop prices as easily as Panasonic.

Are we going to hear official news of the Pioneer 9G sets this month? They're cutting it a bit close, don't you think?

sorry if this was posted already

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/content/press/news/kuroPortfolio.html

KURO Plasma TVs for absolute picture quality
The new 2008 range of KURO plasma TVs exceeds the boundaries of what was thought possible in picture quality performance. The second generation KURO pushes closer to absolute black by further reducing the idling luminance and improving black levels five times over the previous 2007 KURO models. This has enabled Pioneer to accurately reproduce even higher contrast levels and deeper colours within the high-definition colour spectrum. The all-new 2008 KURO plasma TVs are available in 50 and 60-inch (availability depending on region).

Model No.
Screen Size (Diagonal)
Resolution
Availability

PDP-LX5090
127 cm (50 inch)
1920X1080p at 100Hz
June

PDP-LX6090
152 cm (60 inch)
1920X1080p at 100Hz
June

PDP-LX5090H
127 cm (50 inch)
1920X1080p at 100Hz
depending on region

PDP-LX6090H
152 cm (60 inch)
1920X1080p at 100Hz
depending on region

so......... what about the 5020? or is that now the 5090? and what are the "H" designations? are those the elites? i realize this is Europe.

Very well said and therefore people decide to choose LCD rather than Plasma. LCD has key element is catches people's eyes.

Apparently you didn't comprehend my post. I'll go real slow. For a person to get the kuro home, in a darkened enviroment, and, as you say, calibrated, something called, i believe it's called a "purchase" must first take place. For a "purchase" to take place at, let's say, Best Buy, the customer must look at a "wall" with mounted flat panels consisting of plasma and LCD's. Now, the average person, the person who goes by first impression because they don't understand what the specs mean, sees an endless display of bright, vibrant LCD's with a few dim, dull, and unexciting plasmas mixed in will, for the most part, turn their attention solely towards the LCD's. This means the kuro will lose another sale. Sales are what keeps companies growing. A 5010 kuro, sitting next to a Sammy 71 series LCD in Best Buy looks a hell of a lot different next to the Sammy at home. The problem is, it has to be "purchased" at the store first. I don't inderstand why it's so difficult to understand this. You have to increase the lumens to even the playing field. It has nothing to do with contrast ratio, how deep the blacks are, or how much detail you can see in those blacks, what the average customer first sees is how well it pops or jumps out at them. What catches their eye. This is where plasma fails, especially the kuros.

I can justify paying a $1000 premium for the 5020 ($3500 MSRP) over the 5080 ($2500 MSRP), but not any more of a premium. I'm afraid that with the exchange rate issues, the 5020 MSRP will be higher than $3500, but I might not find out until after all the 5080's are gone.

When will the pricing on the 9G's be announced, and will Best Buy still have stock of 5080's then?