When do 9G Kuro's come out?? [Text View]

chadmak09

02-09-08, 04:48 AM

Hi,
I am thinking of buying a pdp-6010fd but I hear the blacks on the new 9G Kuros will be 80% better than the 8G's.
What I need to know is ,
Does anyone actually know when the 9G's will be availible?? Is it a matter of months??
If so, Should I just wait and buy a 9G instead??
I am using the Sony KDL52XBR4 120hz lcd right now but I am dying to get a Kuro.
Maybe I should just keep using my LCD until the 9G's come out and buy then.
Any thoughts?

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http://chadmak09.smugmug.com/photos/288707904_qwbjY-XL.jpg
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Here is some info

Model - available - retail price

Pioneer PDP 5020FD - June - $4,000

Elite PRO 111FD - July - $5,000

Pioneer PDP 6020FD - June - $5,500

Elite PRO 151FD - late July - $6,500

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B]News about the Pioneer plasma[/B]

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/04/24/pioneer-panasonic-reach-basic-agreement-on-kuro-production-fir/

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/04/21/afx4915560.html

http://vahalee-technologytoday.blogspot.com/2008/03/pioneer-plasma-9g-kuro-information.html

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Get-Ready-for-the-Pioneer-KURO-Invasion-of-High-Definition-82870.shtml

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*Estimated retail prices, not confirmed*
*No more 768P 50" Plasma TV's*
*No more contrast ratio listed by Pioneer*
*80% better black level than the 8G*
*Last model to have the glass build by Pioneer, for the10G, the glass will be outsourced*

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OFFICIAL PIONEER PRESS RELEASES LINK

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/PressRoom

coltsfreak18

02-09-08, 06:23 AM

RolandOG

02-09-08, 07:59 AM

june/july. the only known thing is the 5020 (you know 5010s older brother) will have a msrp of $3500

Is this a known thing now? I thought D-Nice said it was the 'targeted' MSRP?

spincut

02-09-08, 08:00 AM

june/july. the only known thing is the 5020 (you know 5010s older brother) will have a msrp of $3500

technically it's their younger brother when you think about it.

also, and i know others have claimed to have confirmed this several times, but Pioneer is really no longer going to make a 42" model? I mean, first i expected a 4210, and when that didnt come i presumed a 4220 would come out someday.

I really cant go to 50" but am surprised with Pioneers limited amount of models that they would limit them even further.

georget

02-09-08, 08:44 AM

coltsfreak18

02-09-08, 12:45 PM

Is this a known thing now? I thought D-Nice said it was the 'targeted' MSRP?I don't have any inside sources (except d), but that probably will be the price, and i am pretty sure on the june/july thing... D-NICE!!!

creemail

02-09-08, 12:46 PM

I really cant go to 50" but am surprised with Pioneers limited amount of models that they would limit them even further.

Bigger is always better. Consumers want bigger screens, but everyone can't always accommodate a large screen within their application. Which I can understand. ;)

Chris

videoaddikt

02-09-08, 01:41 PM

I am sure displays with fewer defects and only 10% better blacks would make a lot of people happy too.

Nuance

02-09-08, 02:38 PM

Hi,
I am thinking of buying a pdp-6010fd but I hear the blacks on the new 9G Kuros will be 80% better than the 8G's.

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that. 80%? No way!

DTV TiVo Dealer

02-09-08, 03:00 PM

FromOZ

02-09-08, 04:27 PM

technically it's their younger brother when you think about it.

also, and i know others have claimed to have confirmed this several times, but Pioneer is really no longer going to make a 42" model?
I've been told by a dealer that they will have as smallest panel 44" but with Full-HD.

I just got a 5080XA (Europe) because the Full HD models are out of my budget, but no matter the 5080 is no slouch.

Nuance

02-09-08, 04:49 PM

paris_tn

02-09-08, 04:55 PM

HDGForever

02-09-08, 05:44 PM

That's really good info to know, but for those tempted to get the 6010 on sale consider this:

#1) If the new MSRP's mentioned in this thread are correct that makes the 08 models 30% cheaper than 07 ($3500 vs $5000). That would make any deal on an 07 not really a deal.

I would believe this is possible because all competitors are putting on the price pressure.

Yes Pioneer's may command a premium, but you can't sell a Lexus for twice the price of a Toyota, even premium products usually stay within a certain spread of standard products.

#2) It's great the blacks are improving 5x every year but when will the whites improve?

Actually, here's the scoop on Pioneer's rich blacks. This year's Kuros have 5 times blacker blacks vs. last years models. The next gen #9, will again achieve a 5 time increase in black level over the current Kuros.

The Gen 10 Kuro achieve total black, 0 ire.

At CES I had a great private dealer demo in a private hotel suite that was very very impressive. Pioneer keeps improving the advanced cell structure technology and contrast ratio.

-Robert

coltsfreak18

02-09-08, 06:55 PM

xb1032

02-09-08, 07:07 PM

Actually, here's the scoop on Pioneer's rich blacks. This year's Kuros have 5 times blacker blacks vs. last years models. The next gen #9, will again achieve a 5 time increase in black level over the current Kuros.

The Gen 10 Kuro achieve total black, 0 ire.

At CES I had a great private dealer demo in a private hotel suite that was very very impressive. Pioneer keeps improving the advanced cell structure technology and contrast ratio.

-Robert

Robert,

I'm assuming your demo showed the 9Gs next to the 8Gs. Having said that did you notice:

1. Were the 9Gs any brighter than the 8Gs?
2. Was there any difference in the glass on the 8Gs and 9Gs(tint-wise)?
3. Were the whites any whiter on the 9Gs?

Thanks!

DTV TiVo Dealer

02-09-08, 07:30 PM

Robert,

I'm assuming your demo showed the 9Gs next to the 8Gs. Having said that did you notice:

1. Were the 9Gs any brighter than the 8Gs? No
2. Was there any difference in the glass on the 8Gs and 9Gs(tint-wise)? Not that I can notice, but when 8 and 9 G units are powered off the 9 G is much blacker
3. Were the whites any whiter on the 9Gs? No

Thanks!

I responded next to you questions above.

-Robert

xb1032

02-09-08, 07:59 PM

I responded next to you questions above.

-Robert

Thanks Robert!

That's dissapointing in the brightness but then again it could be possibly that they were calibrated to look similar. The 9Gs looking much darker when powered off sounds interesting. I can see a slight glow on my 8G when I power on mine in my home theater and I'd bet I couldn't notice a difference on the 9Gs until the room was darkened.

JackLT

02-09-08, 09:26 PM

chadmak09

02-09-08, 10:33 PM

Man, I am so confused. I don't know what to do. On one hand, I want to go ahead and get the 6010 now. But on the other hand, I don't want to be sitting in Best buy 6 months from now looking at the 9G's and saying "man that is one awesome TV, I should have waited".
I Guess always having the "new, best" TV is not a reality unless you can afford spending 3000-5000 dollars every 6 months or so on a new TV. There will always be something better coming around the corner. Wouldnt it be nice if you could rent or lease top of the line HDTV's and upgrade every 6 months or so.
Also,
Does anyone have comcast HD and a 1080p Kuro? How does it look? Does direct TV look better than comcast hd? Does Direc tV have on HD on-demand like Comcast?

Thanks!!!!!

Chip E

02-09-08, 10:49 PM

FIOS HD certainly looks great on my Kuro ;)

jet757f

02-09-08, 11:04 PM

colleycol

02-09-08, 11:31 PM

So is it pretty definite to say that in the spring we will see a 60 inch plasma for around 3500 from Pioneer in the 9G lineup?

Thebarnman

02-10-08, 12:37 AM

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that. 80%? No way!

Yes way. It's going to be much better than that on the G9s,
D-Nice said you can expect .000x ft. lumens black levels.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13048693#post13048693

chadmak09

02-10-08, 05:36 AM

I thought the Sony KDL52XBR4 was a pretty good display. Other than size and black levels, are you happy with the Sony?

Actually the black levels are ok on the sony (of curse not as good as a Kuro, but still very good). I also like the color accuracy. But my biggest dislkie is the ghosting. Another problems is when I turn up the 120 hz "motionflow" the motion does much better but starts showing strange artifacts especially when there is a moving object with a still background. Its almost like a transparent glow around the object. Not sure what this is but I saw the same thing with my Samsung LNT5271F.
In the past I never really noticed ghosting on my sony but about a week ago I went to Bestbuy to buy the Kuro 5080. I ended up sitting there watching the 5010 for about an hour or so. And when I got home I popped in a bluray (3:10 to yuma to be exact) on my XBR4. After watching the XBR4 for about 1 minute, I started noticing ghosting a whole lot more. I even thought there was something wrong with the TV for a few minutes. But I then realized that I had just got thru watching a Kuro for about an hour and this is why I was now noticing the ghosting so much. I almost wish I never saw the kuro now lol. I ended up liking the 5010 much better since I am very used to 1080p with my sony and the 5080 is 768p so I did not buy the 5080 when I was there. I watch my TV at about 7 feet so the SDE on the 5080 is just too much of a deal breaker for me. Instead I had my eyes set on the 5010. And since my price range for my next TV is 3-5000$, I think I will just buy the 6010 online instead of buying the 5010 at best buy (which is almost the same price).
I think I am just about ready to buy the 6010 now. Roman from invision quoted me a great price and I will probably be going with him after I call them and verify thier return policy. Its very important to me that I can exchange the TV if it has any dead pixels when it is delivered. I know one dead pixel is not a huge deal but when you just bought the TV it kinda is.
Thanks for your help guys!
I am kinda still wondering if I should wait for the 9G's but I don't think i can wait any longer for a kuro. After watching one for a little while my XBR4 (which I thought was so wonderful) doesn't seem so wonderful anymore. But don't get me wrong the XBR4 is a wonderful TV. It just needs some improvement in a few areas that the Kuros do much better in.

Also,
I have another question guys,
Does the refresh rate work differently on Plasma then it does on an LCD? I heard from someone that the 6010 has a 147hz refresh rate. Is that the actual refresh rate or kinda like an equivilent concept?
Does the 6010 reduce judder like a 120hz LCD does?
With my XBR4 I get a "video like" or "soap opera feel" to film content that I really like. It seems unnatural to some, but I kinda like it. Does the 6010 give this effect??
Thanks again guys!!

Oiler

02-10-08, 08:07 AM

cybertec

02-10-08, 09:26 AM

It looks like in two years my 110FD will go in my bedroom, and the new 10th generation panel will go in my living room.

[Irishman]

02-10-08, 10:25 AM

technically it's their younger brother when you think about it.

also, and i know others have claimed to have confirmed this several times, but Pioneer is really no longer going to make a 42" model? I mean, first i expected a 4210, and when that didnt come i presumed a 4220 would come out someday.

I really cant go to 50" but am surprised with Pioneers limited amount of models that they would limit them even further.

Pioneer's got a good point. At the distance most ppl view a 42" set, 1080p won't do them a bit of good. You've got to be like 4-6 feet away to see the difference. They're being realistic, unlike their competitors, who are just selling higher resolution as being always better, when in fact, it's not.

Dovetails

02-11-08, 12:46 AM

Is the 44" speculation or has there been actual independent confirmation of this?

I am looking to buy both a 42" (bedroom) and a 60" (recroom). I was going to get the
42" soon if they were to be discontinued, but would wait for a 44" full HD. I will definitely wait on the 60" because it might be almost as long to get the 150FD locally.

I too would like to know if this (44") set is in fact a reality. I would probably be VERY interested in a set this size.

What about it 'D' ... any scoop ??? :D

Zues

02-11-08, 01:46 AM

The 6010 is one amazing set right now, blacks are not an issue.

You would have to be sitting in the dark to notice blacker blacks?

If the 9g offered brighter whites, it would be worth waiting for,
but not for darker blacks?

Yes it would be worth waiting for. Current Kuro contrast ratio is rated 20:000:1 on-off.. Very very good but if the 9G delivers OIRE black then the ratio will be atleast 50:000:1-100:000:1.

lipcrkr

02-11-08, 04:03 AM

Actually, here's the scoop on Pioneer's rich blacks. This year's Kuros have 5 times blacker blacks vs. last years models. The next gen #9, will again achieve a 5 time increase in black level over the current Kuros.

The Gen 10 Kuro achieve total black, 0 ire.

At CES I had a great private dealer demo in a private hotel suite that was very very impressive. Pioneer keeps improving the advanced cell structure technology and contrast ratio.

-Robert

Yeah, Pioneer keeps improving the blacks, meanwhile they are losing tons of money because everything else looks like the bottom of Loch Ness. Someone needs to tell Pioneer that the general public doesn't give a squat about 0.0002fl, they want a brighter screen that's comparable to an LCD. You guys can boast about the blacks being blacker than black, but if General Q. Public doesn't give it a second look in the store, Pioneer will have to exit the plasma marketplace. Then you guys will have to become....dare i mention it......Panny fan boys.

Thebarnman

02-11-08, 04:26 AM

gregdpw

02-11-08, 04:41 AM

it woulld be cool if the 6010 model dropped in price!

HerbalEd

02-11-08, 05:38 AM

Yeah, Pioneer keeps improving the blacks, meanwhile they are losing tons of money because everything else looks like the bottom of Loch Ness. Someone needs to tell Pioneer that the general public doesn't give a squat about 0.0002fl, they want a brighter screen that's comparable to an LCD. You guys can boast about the blacks being blacker than black, but if General Q. Public doesn't give it a second look in the store, Pioneer will have to exit the plasma marketplace. Then you guys will have to become....dare i mention it......Panny fan boys.

Seems like virtually everyone ... including the video pros & mags ... that have seen the new Pios are giving them rave revues. Plus I've seen no complaints that they're not bright enough. What are you basing your criticism on? Have you seen them in action? Can you reference any reviews, posts, etc. that agree with your assumption? Or do you just love to bash Pio?

BTW, I'm not a Pio or any other brand fan boy ... I just want the best. Therefore, based upon what I've read and heard so far, I'm definitely buying a 9G Kuro as soon as they're available ... that is, unless something comes along before then that's even better ... which I doubt will happen.

lipcrkr

02-11-08, 05:42 AM

0.0002fl? It has been said about the G9s to "expect .000x ft. lumens black levels".

In a darkened room with a properly ISF calibrated display, the contrast levels are more than good enough.

If your watching TV in a room during the day with sun shiny open windows, then it may seem dull.

Most displays were never designed to compete with sunlight.

Apparently you didn't comprehend my post. I'll go real slow. For a person to get the kuro home, in a darkened enviroment, and, as you say, calibrated, something called, i believe it's called a "purchase" must first take place. For a "purchase" to take place at, let's say, Best Buy, the customer must look at a "wall" with mounted flat panels consisting of plasma and LCD's. Now, the average person, the person who goes by first impression because they don't understand what the specs mean, sees an endless display of bright, vibrant LCD's with a few dim, dull, and unexciting plasmas mixed in will, for the most part, turn their attention solely towards the LCD's. This means the kuro will lose another sale. Sales are what keeps companies growing. A 5010 kuro, sitting next to a Sammy 71 series LCD in Best Buy looks a hell of a lot different next to the Sammy at home. The problem is, it has to be "purchased" at the store first. I don't inderstand why it's so difficult to understand this. You have to increase the lumens to even the playing field. It has nothing to do with contrast ratio, how deep the blacks are, or how much detail you can see in those blacks, what the average customer first sees is how well it pops or jumps out at them. What catches their eye. This is where plasma fails, especially the kuros.

HerbalEd

02-11-08, 06:01 AM

I just bought a 5010 but will be waiting for some good deals on either another 5010 or the 6010. I can use them in another room.

My concern is when I see new improved more advanced products come out at a lower price where have they cut the cost? Are they using cheaper parts or cheaper labor? If Pioneer is planning on reducing the price 30% are we going to still see a quality product from them or will they start being like all the rest of the manufacturers? After all they are in bed with Sharp now so Im sure they might start using the same cost cutting measures especially if the consumer is so price driven and not too concerned with quality.

If it seems to good to be true............it probably is......

Why so "sure"? Maybe, instead, Pio will stop Sharp's cost-cutting measures and improve their quality. Seems to me Pio's not producing for consumers who are not concerned about high quality. Or maybe, they'll produce cheaper (price & quality) Sharp units for those who want them, and will produce the higher (quality & price) Pio units for those who can afford them. Reality is ... we don't know and are just speculating.

spincut

02-11-08, 06:05 AM

Bigger is always better. Consumers want bigger screens, but everyone can't always accommodate a large screen within their application. Which I can understand. ;)

Chris

trust me, 50" is too big for my purposes, 40-42 is just about too much also but thats the limit/cutoff for the regular mainstream models of most brands.

I've been told by a dealer that they will have as smallest panel 44" but with Full-HD.

I just got a 5080XA (Europe) because the Full HD models are out of my budget, but no matter the 5080 is no slouch.

Where did this 44" rumor come from all of the sudden? first its people saying they have some sort of inside info saying the 42" tv's are going away (which i still dont like, people say it's logical because you wont notice a difference unless you're closer, well...duh....you need a smaller tv because you will be closer, bigger would not be good for your eyes!....besides, those same liens of logic would say a 50" wouldnt need it either technically).

williamtassone

02-11-08, 06:16 AM

...
the general public doesn't give a squat about 0.0002fl, they want a brighter screen that's comparable to an LCD. ....

Sad but true

HerbalEd

02-11-08, 06:52 AM

Sad but true

Someone needs to tell Pioneer that the general public doesn't give a squat about 0.0002fl, they want a brighter screen that's comparable to an LCD.

How do you know? Do you have actual marketing research data that indicates this is true? I would assume that Pio probably spends a lot of time and money actually researching such questions. Billion dollar companies generally do.

So, are you saying that the general public will choose a brighter screen only because it's brighter? And will reject a less-bright screen even if it has a better overall picture (i.e., better contrast ratio, sharpness, color, etc.)? Maybe those that do aren't very bright themselves. It's kinda like choosing which car to buy by it's color.

Setting price aside, I'd bet most people want what has the best overall picture ... although not all would agree what's the "best" picture.

williamtassone

02-11-08, 08:04 AM

actually I do have sales figures and I can furnish you with the link.

The sales figures for Kuro sales in australia were quite poor. Pioneer plasma got hammered by the likes of samsung here.
The Kuro (IMHO) best television available today but it didnt sell well here

some of the reasons based on discussions with sales staff

1. price too high , comparative

2. Average Joe is attracted to bright , dazzling colourful displays (try warning the average retiree that whilst that LCD looks ok in the showroom , heaven help you when u have to watch a movie with lots of dark scenes in your average living room)

3. Popular misconceptions regarding plasma that will take time to weed out (eg Burn In still being a problem)

after i bought my Kuro i tried to get colleagues to buy one and all they kept asking about was burn in ,burn in , burn in

I am very grateful for pioneer for bringing us the KURO. But you don't have to have an MBA from Harvard to work out why they've negotiated a deal with sharp

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/Industry/M6Q8V8N4?page=1

iatacs19

02-11-08, 09:48 AM

Apparently you didn't comprehend my post. I'll go real slow. For a person to get the kuro home, in a darkened enviroment, and, as you say, calibrated, something called, i believe it's called a "purchase" must first take place. For a "purchase" to take place at, let's say, Best Buy, the customer must look at a "wall" with mounted flat panels consisting of plasma and LCD's. Now, the average person, the person who goes by first impression because they don't understand what the specs mean, sees an endless display of bright, vibrant LCD's with a few dim, dull, and unexciting plasmas mixed in will, for the most part, turn their attention solely towards the LCD's. This means the kuro will lose another sale. Sales are what keeps companies growing. A 5010 kuro, sitting next to a Sammy 71 series LCD in Best Buy looks a hell of a lot different next to the Sammy at home. The problem is, it has to be "purchased" at the store first. I don't inderstand why it's so difficult to understand this. You have to increase the lumens to even the playing field. It has nothing to do with contrast ratio, how deep the blacks are, or how much detail you can see in those blacks, what the average customer first sees is how well it pops or jumps out at them. What catches their eye. This is where plasma fails, especially the kuros.

This is sad, but true. The "average" consumer doesn't care about the specs, they just want a bright picture with popping colors.

Just stand at Best Buy and look at the TVs then quietly listen as people walk around commenting on the TVs, it is exactly as lipcrk has said above.

HDGForever

02-11-08, 11:53 AM

Apparently you didn't comprehend my post. I'll go real slow.

1) Come on lipcrkr man, we don't want a rude ass post. People don't communicate perfectly, no need to be condescending.

2) It's true he's incorrect in multiple ways however, including the "no one is complaining about Kuro" part. There have been multiple threads about Pioneer (plasma) whites in the forums, as well as with people who don't follow these things closely and just browse at BB.

Yes we all want a dedicated, perfectly dark theater room where we watch all TV, with a little sliding hatch in the wall so our servants can slide in snacks without disturbing the display for a moment.

However for those of us that haven't attained that yet, Kuro could be better still.

sma

02-11-08, 12:04 PM

This is sad, but true. The "average" consumer doesn't care about the specs, they just want a bright picture with popping colors.

Just stand at Best Buy and look at the TVs then quietly listen as people walk around commenting on the TVs, it is exactly as lipcrk has said above.

Yup, thus the reason for Dynamic and Vivid modes in all the TV's (that many default to in case they are store display units). So I guess Pio just has to make their Dynamic mode have as much pop and brightness as LCD's and other Plasmas Vivid/Dynamic modes and it may help.

greenland

02-11-08, 12:13 PM

HDGForever

02-11-08, 12:20 PM

I notice that some people, who have an axe to grind, are attributing the low Pioneer Kuro Sales figures to the customers looking at them and deciding that they are not bright enough.

The thought of someone walking around with axe to grind about television sets is hilarious to me. I'm not making any judgments on your opinion it's just funny.

I think that the majority of customers are probably deciding on the basis of the fact that the Pioneer Kuro is a luxury item, and sells at a luxury item price level. Many people just can not afford them.

This has got to be a big part of it. Yes Kuros are not perfect but if they were $399 each I'd have a 60" in every room.

greenland

02-11-08, 12:40 PM

The thought of someone walking around with axe to grind about television sets is hilarious to me. I'm not making any judgments on your opinion it's just funny.

This has got to be a big part of it. Yes Kuros are not perfect but if they were $399 each I'd have a 60" in every room.

Well, there is one guy in particular who has a history of flaming pioneer threads, and calling people names, once they state a different opinion.

I know that when I am shopping for any large ticket item, I look at the price first, and if I suffer sticker shock, I do not bother to do further comparative research on the item that I just found out I can not afford. I think most people do the same thing.:)

JackLT

02-11-08, 01:11 PM

Kuro 1080Ps do not show well at all in most big box stores compared to LCD.
Some dealers do have darkened show rooms where the plasmas really shine.

Its too bad that plasma has a bad reputation and more people do not try them.

I was one of the anti-plasma ones until I purchased the 6010 and wouldn't trade it for anything
and thats coming from the best LCD ever made the Sammy 81 series.

DTV TiVo Dealer

02-11-08, 01:51 PM

Shutterman

02-11-08, 02:59 PM

I understand that it might be easy to think that “Pioneer is losing tons of money” on the Kuro because the picture quality is “different” (or, in this case, more refined) than the average consumer’s expectations.

But the fact of the matter is that the Kuro is neither a failed business strategy nor is at a failed technological strategy. Pioneer’s intended market is NOT the mass market. They have made it very clear that they are going after a certain select segment of the market. This, by the way, is the reason one can not compare raw sales numbers (i.e., to say they were “killed” in comparison to Samsung’s sales is like comparing apples to oranges).

Also, companies that start off with a segmented marketing strategy stand to reap greater benefits than their mass marketer counterparts when consumers become better educated and their tastes shift. Marketing textbooks are filled with such examples.

Long-time successful companies like Pioneer Electronics take the long view when it comes to implementing a new technology like the Kuro uses. It’s not unusual at all to see a negative return forecasted for the first few years before ultimately turning profitable. When doing their financial projections, they look to complex product-life revenue-expectancy models and other factors (e.g., currency risk factors, the futures markets on raw materials, etc.) before they even begin thinking about funding factory production.

One thing is certain, however, is that if they misjudge the market or if their financial projections don’t pan out, successful companies like Pioneer are quick to pull the plug. They also most certainly do not pump more money into R&D to tweak or improve the technology like Pioneer has done with the Kuro. This more than anything else is telling of how well a product line is doing. The fact that Pioneer went all out at the recent CES to trumpet its further development of the product line should speak volumes as to how well the Kuro line is doing to even the most casual of non-industry observers.

highheater

02-11-08, 03:03 PM

It has nothing to do with contrast ratio, how deep the blacks are, or how much detail you can see in those blacks, what the average customer first sees is how well it pops or jumps out at them. What catches their eye. This is where plasma fails, especially the kuros.

And what happens when that person brings his big screen TV home and only the 2-3 people sitting in the couch directly in front of the TV can get the benefit of that bright LCD picture? Seems like one unhappy family or continuous fights to get the best seat in the house. Make sure you call SAVED when you get up.

mrTAPOUT

02-11-08, 03:12 PM

JackLT

02-11-08, 03:27 PM

Put the bottom speaker on that baby, it looks undressed :)

xb1032

02-11-08, 06:15 PM

...With my XBR4 I get a "video like" or "soap opera feel" to film content that I really like. It seems unnatural to some, but I kinda like it. Does the 6010 give this effect??
Thanks again guys!!

If you are talking about the LCD 120HZ affect that gives it the "on the set" type look then your answer is no. You won't get that with a Kuro.

xb1032

02-11-08, 06:26 PM

Yeah, Pioneer keeps improving the blacks, meanwhile they are losing tons of money because everything else looks like the bottom of Loch Ness. Someone needs to tell Pioneer that the general public doesn't give a squat about 0.0002fl, they want a brighter screen that's comparable to an LCD. You guys can boast about the blacks being blacker than black, but if General Q. Public doesn't give it a second look in the store, Pioneer will have to exit the plasma marketplace. Then you guys will have to become....dare i mention it......Panny fan boys.

All plasmas do look dim near the LCDs in the stores and IMO that's one reason LCDs outsell plasma. Even owning a Kuro and liking it I can't tell you how many times I've admited the Samsung 71 series at a pass by. I don't care what the experts say plasmas do have enough light output to display an ideal image. And I've also noticed in store that the Samsungs display more detail in white areas than the Kuros. Turning the contrast down a bit helps but not enough (not to mention that dims the picture more). Brightness of a TV needs to be like power in a car. You don't need it all the time but when you do you want to be able to use it!

What do I hate more the lack of brightness in plasmas or the inadequate black levels on LCDs? Well the LCD market has answered my question for me for not having affordable 60" panels. Did I mention I hate matte screens on LCDs that was out the picture?

Back to your main point, if from what I've read is true then in the near future (maybe next year?) the Kuro will have 10 lumen panels with perfect blacks and aren't power hungry and will provide the answer you are looking for.

xb1032

02-11-08, 06:28 PM

I was one of those people that prefered the brighter look. I bought the 71F, and while an amazing LCD, I recently got the Kuro and was floored by it. At night, it pops more than the LCd and during the day, in a bright room, with break in settings, its plenty bright. Best buy is not an accurate way to measure brightness. in fact, the kuro has the ability to be too bright. Here is a pic I took during a very bright room condition.

I'm curios as to what your likes/dislikes were when comparing the 71 and the Kuro. If I didn't need a 60" TV these two TV would have been my top choices. My first thoughts would be the Kuro would be better for movies while the 71 would have a nice look with animated movies and games (especially with the 120Hz affect).

R11

02-11-08, 07:15 PM

Here is a pic I took during a very bright room condition.I guess one man's bright room is another man's dim dungeon. All that bright light must be blinding me as I can't even make out what your panel is sitting on there! :D.

ron

cajieboy

02-11-08, 10:32 PM

chadmak09

02-12-08, 12:48 AM

I'm curios as to what your likes/dislikes were when comparing the 71 and the Kuro. If I didn't need a 60" TV these two TV would have been my top choices. My first thoughts would be the Kuro would be better for movies while the 71 would have a nice look with animated movies and games (especially with the 120Hz affect).

I had the LNT5271F for about 3 weeks and I exchanged it for my KDL52XBR4. IMO the Sony is a better overall display than the samsung. The samsungs blacks are slightly better (and I mean very slightly) but the blacks on the sony are very nice if you have your settings right. The Bravia processing of the Sony is far superior to the samsung. The samsung was decent with 1080i cable, but the sony does very well. Another thing that drove me away from the samsung was the heavily reflective screen. I found more glare and reflection on the 71f was almost unbearable during the daytime (but did nice at night). The motionflow on the sony is much smoother and does not produce as many artifacts as the samsungs automotionplus. Also color accuracy on the sony is much more accurate. The greyscale is pretty much spot-on with the sony.
But compared to the 5010 Kuro The XBR4 starts the look not so good.
The brightness is great on the sony but it is just tooo bright. I have developed conjuctivitis in my eyes twice in the past three months from playing COD4 on my PS3 at night on my XBR4. The display is so bright that it causes my eyes to water and I got conjuctivitis from wiping my eyes so much that my eyes got infected. But I turn the brightness down now when I play. It makes the PQ not as good but I do not want conjuctivitis again (it really sucked!).
I will be very glad when I get my Kuro.

HerbalEd

02-12-08, 02:50 AM

I know that when I am shopping for any large ticket item, I look at the price first, and if I suffer sticker shock, I do not bother to do further comparative research on the item that I just found out I can not afford. I think most people do the same thing.:)

And then there are those who, because their budget won't allow the purchase, will nit-pick minor deficiencies in order to rationalize their inability to own the unit ... the classic sour grapes syndrome.

And then there are a few with frustration and anger issues who lack appropriate social skills.

Reality is, there is no "perfect" TV screen, and probably won't be in the next 20 years ... if ever. So, while I'm waiting for flawless, life-like holographic TV, I'll buy what "I" perceive as the best at present.

HerbalEd

02-12-08, 02:55 AM

spincut

02-12-08, 06:56 AM

I had the LNT5271F for about 3 weeks and I exchanged it for my KDL52XBR4. IMO the Sony is a better overall display than the samsung. The samsungs blacks are slightly better (and I mean very slightly) but the blacks on the sony are very nice if you have your settings right. The Bravia processing of the Sony is far superior to the samsung. The samsung was decent with 1080i cable, but the sony does very well. Another thing that drove me away from the samsung was the heavily reflective screen. I found more glare and reflection on the 71f was almost unbearable during the daytime (but did nice at night). The motionflow on the sony is much smoother and does not produce as many artifacts as the samsungs automotionplus. Also color accuracy on the sony is much more accurate. The greyscale is pretty much spot-on with the sony.
But compared to the 5010 Kuro The XBR4 starts the look not so good.
The brightness is great on the sony but it is just tooo bright. I have developed conjuctivitis in my eyes twice in the past three months from playing COD4 on my PS3 at night on my XBR4. The display is so bright that it causes my eyes to water and I got conjuctivitis from wiping my eyes so much that my eyes got infected. But I turn the brightness down now when I play. It makes the PQ not as good but I do not want conjuctivitis again (it really sucked!).
I will be very glad when I get my Kuro.

yeah, thats why i had to return the XBR2 even, and for some reason they just kept making it brighter since! It's plenty bright already!

And it's even worse in the dark because your pupils dialate.

I thought i was going crazy i thought my old CRT never did this.....well anyway thats why i have to begrudgingly switch to plasma.

mike infinity

02-12-08, 07:38 AM

But compared to the 5010 Kuro The XBR4 starts the look not so good.

I'm surprised you made no mention of blur/smearing on the xbr4. I found it to be just awful and reminded me of the performance of those old passive LCD screens.

The brightness is great on the sony but it is just tooo bright.

True...Though I will admit that in the box stores the increased brightness gives the impression of more pop next to the plasmas.

audioexcels

02-12-08, 07:57 AM

audioexcels

02-12-08, 08:01 AM

Seems like virtually everyone ... including the video pros & mags ... that have seen the new Pios are giving them rave revues. Plus I've seen no complaints that they're not bright enough. What are you basing your criticism on? Have you seen them in action? Can you reference any reviews, posts, etc. that agree with your assumption? Or do you just love to bash Pio?

BTW, I'm not a Pio or any other brand fan boy ... I just want the best. Therefore, based upon what I've read and heard so far, I'm definitely buying a 9G Kuro as soon as they're available ... that is, unless something comes along before then that's even better ... which I doubt will happen.

How can even blacker blacks without sacrificing detail be a bad thing???:):):)

The entire goal of the TV has been to achieve as near a perfect "reproduction" of the source, no? CRTs have been surprassed by the 8G's. Now the 9G's surpass the 8G's, and then the 10G sets...my oh my will those be candy to the eyes. For most, the 8G is way more than enough, and to others, the 80% increase in black levels will be more than more than more than enough...only the very determined viewer that wants the entire 10 yards will be after the 10 series.

I don't see why one would not be happy with the brightness levels of the 9G sets, especially if they are equally bright as what the 8G's show. I know I have seen the 8G look WAY bright, and this was in a store...though I have not had one in home, if it is bright enough in the store, it is bright enough at home.

Cheerios!

audioexcels

02-12-08, 08:20 AM

I notice that some people, who have an axe to grind, are attributing the low Pioneer Kuro Sales figures to the customers looking at them and deciding that they are not bright enough.

I think that the majority of customers are probably deciding on the basis of the fact that the Pioneer Kuro is a luxury item, and sells at a luxury item price level. Many people just can not afford them. Even if the would love to own one, they may not be able to pay for one, just like many Kia owners would love to own a Lexus, but can not afford one. That does not mean that they bought the Kia, only because they objected to the tinted windows on the Lexus.:)

It is obvious that Pioneer is not marketed at all, period. You do not see tv ads. for them, you do not hear about them when deals are mentioned, you do not hear about them with regards to what set to buy, you only have to be a member of the AVSforum, be part of a selective group of people, etc. etc. to know what you are getting...it is all weak promoting on Pioneer's part. There's a ton of very expensive LCDs being sold all the time, but not the same holding true for Pioneer.

Not sure about luxury statement:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09/fujitsus-aviamo-1080p-hdtvs/

graphicguy

02-12-08, 10:54 AM

In my showroom we have 3 Pioneer, 1 Panasonic, 1 LG and 2 Hitachi plasma panels. The rest of the store is dedicated to LCD panels from Sharp, Sony and Toshiba totaling about a dozen assorted models. It's true that the LCD panels are brighter especially in our very well lit store, however almost all customers easily select the Pioneer panels as the best picture quality.

The very few who prefer the brighter LCD panel are easily shown the superior image quality.

-Robert
Interesting debate.

I certainly don't hear any complaints from Pio about their plasma sales. Yeah, maybe a store here or there doesn't sell as many KUROs. But, I think this is more a function of what the median income of their customer base is.

I've been a HT enthusiast for over a decade. Doesn't make me an expert, but I've been following the strides made in this area for awhile.

First, I'll say that I just installed a KURO 6010. Like most A/V purchases, I spent months researching, looking, researching some more. Went to store after store. The stores ranged from high end dealers to BB. Without question, the picture I was always drawn to was the KURO's...even with LCDs (Sony XBR being the best of the bunch), Sammy and Panny plasmas situated side-by-side to the KURO, it was clear, by a large margin, which picture was better. Motion artifacts were noticeable on LCDs...120Hz engaged, too. Were LCDs brighter? Yep. The pictures also showed
noise.

That's not to say some people may not be bothered as much as I am by these anomalies in LCDs, but I was. Plus, the only LCD I could find in the size I wanted was the Sharp 65" LCD. The bigger screen just made the noise and artifacts more noticeable.

Sammy plasmas? Well, we all know the issues with those, although I did consider their 58"/63" plasmas. Still, if the issues and customer support I've heard about (and confirmed by one of the local high end A/V dealers) really scared me away.

That brings me to the Panny. 58" was the one I set my sights on. BB had the KURO 60" and Panny 58" side-by-side. Fortunately, I found a BB store who would let me "tweak" the settings of both a little. A few adjustments to both the Panny and the KURO, and the difference in PQ grew even more in the KURO's favor. The deep blacks of the KURO made the colors "pop". To my eyes, there just wasn't a comparison between which was better. Then, there was the 24 fps issue with the Panny.

Don't get me wrong...the Panny looked good. I must admit, the Sammy looked a little better, but neither could match the KURO. Being in OH (where Plasma Concepts is located), my local BB did some price matching, making the KURO about $1,000 more than either the Sammy, or the Panny.

KURO gave me 2" more viewing area, and the best PQ of the bunch, but for $1K more. The difference was so noticeable, it was worth it to me.

I think anyone laying down $3,300 (price I got on the 58" 700U Panny), $3,500 (price of the 58" Sammy), or $4,500 (price I got the 60" KURO for) is going to be a bit more critical, and do more research, than someone walking off the street and say "Give me the brightest TV you've got and I want the cheapest set".

LCDs? Depends on what you want, whether you purchase one of these sets. If you're a casual watcher, you may never notice the motion issues.

I happen to watch a little bit of everything with a more critical eye. DVD's (upconverted), HD sports, BD, HD TW channels (I won't even watch SD, anymore), the KURO was the only one.

Like anything else, there are "good enough" LCDs, RPTVs, Plasmas. If those fit the bill, go for them. I won't denigrate anyone on their choices, or their reasons.

KURO was "it" for me. I don't think the most expensive will always get you the best. But, I also think the best will always be more expensive. In this case, the KURO costs more, but also nets you the best TV.

JackLT

02-12-08, 11:39 AM

b_scott

02-12-08, 01:46 PM

so if i'm looking to buy a 50" Kuro in mid-June, my best bet is to........ wait on even looking at current ones? do you think new ones will be out by then?

boe

02-12-08, 02:34 PM

At CES I had a great private dealer demo in a private hotel suite that was very very impressive. Pioneer keeps improving the advanced cell structure technology and contrast ratio.

-Robert

Thanks for answering some of the questions about the 9Gs

Can you please give us a little more info? Sorry if you've answered any of these already.

1 - Release schedules change constantly - do you know the current release schedule for the 9Gs?

2 - Are the 9Gs any thinner/lighter than the 8Gs?

3 - What is the largest size of the 9Gs - rumors are floating about for much larger sizes than the 8Gs.

Thanks for the info

xb1032

02-12-08, 06:13 PM

I had the LNT5271F for about 3 weeks and I exchanged it for my KDL52XBR4. IMO the Sony is a better overall display than the samsung. The samsungs blacks are slightly better (and I mean very slightly) but the blacks on the sony are very nice if you have your settings right. The Bravia processing of the Sony is far superior to the samsung. The samsung was decent with 1080i cable, but the sony does very well. Another thing that drove me away from the samsung was the heavily reflective screen. I found more glare and reflection on the 71f was almost unbearable during the daytime (but did nice at night). The motionflow on the sony is much smoother and does not produce as many artifacts as the samsungs automotionplus. Also color accuracy on the sony is much more accurate. The greyscale is pretty much spot-on with the sony.
But compared to the 5010 Kuro The XBR4 starts the look not so good.
The brightness is great on the sony but it is just tooo bright. I have developed conjuctivitis in my eyes twice in the past three months from playing COD4 on my PS3 at night on my XBR4. The display is so bright that it causes my eyes to water and I got conjuctivitis from wiping my eyes so much that my eyes got infected. But I turn the brightness down now when I play. It makes the PQ not as good but I do not want conjuctivitis again (it really sucked!).
I will be very glad when I get my Kuro.

Thanks for your comparison. I would've thought the Samsung had a bit better black levels than the Sony. I saw the Sony demo for blu-ray in HH Gregg in moderately darkened area and it just didn't look that good to me. If the 71s were in the same class then that would be a big bummer to a Kuro owner. Sorry about your eyes. Don't shoot your eyes out! ;)

Thebarnman

02-12-08, 06:16 PM

Thanks for answering some of the questions about the 9Gs

Can you please give us a little more info? Sorry if you've answered any of these already.

1 - Release schedules change constantly - do you know the current release schedule for the 9Gs?

2 - Are the 9Gs any thinner/lighter than the 8Gs?

3 - What is the largest size of the 9Gs - rumors are floating about for much larger sizes than the 8Gs.

Thanks for the info

Release schedule should be about the same.
9Gs will be about the same size as the 8Gs.
Larger sizes are still rumors and will be rumor till an official announcement. I hope for at least a 75" or larger!!!

At least the 9G will be the ECC (Extreme Contrast Concept) model.
10G will be manufactured differently.

chadmak09

02-12-08, 07:32 PM

Thanks for your comparison. I would've thought the Samsung had a bit better black levels than the Sony. I saw the Sony demo for blu-ray in HH Gregg in moderately darkened area and it just didn't look that good to me. If the 71s were in the same class then that would be a big bummer to a Kuro owner. Sorry about your eyes. Don't shoot your eyes out! ;)

Blacks are a little darker on the Samsung than the XBR4. But not as deep as a Kuro. I would say that the blacks are as dark on the 81F as a Kuro BUT its only because of the local dimming effect which is in my opinion kind of a cheat and does not do as good in shadows as the kuro does. The local dimming looks great when certain parts of the screen are totally black but if there is any detail or image in the shadows you can't see them. With a Kuro you can. Todays LCD's are getting better because of so many new "add-ons" like 120hz, local dimming, LED backlighting, etc. But the Kuro seems to naturally achieve all of the things that LCD uses these add-ons for. Which is why I have chosen to leave the LCD bandwagon and go plasma.

ShagnWagn

02-12-08, 07:33 PM

LCDs are best for gaming, and use in bright rooms.

Kuro plasmas have a better image for movies and HDTV in a light dimmed area.

As much as a love the Kuro 6010,
I hate having to worry about image retention and burn in when leaving the PVR on pause, or walking away from the PS3 / 360 menu for too long. With an LCD you dont worry. I wouldnt even try web browsing on the plasma, but used to do it all the time on the LCD.

If I had the space both would be great, but if choosing one its plasma for me, and just being extra careful with it.

What rock did you crawl out from under? ;)

From everything I've read, plasmas are best for gaming. My 6010 is the best I've ever seen for gaming, picture quality and response time.

Then don't hate having to worry about IR and burn in, those are a thing of the past and are usually only mentioned by anti-plasma people. I've left the same image on my 6010 for hours and never even had a flash of IR - this after several evenings of falling asleep watching a movie and the main menu of the movie sitting on the Play Movie button... many times 6-8 hours straight.

And this post was typed on my 6010. I browse the web every time I fire up my HTPC, sometimes spending an hour or two straight looking up info in these forums. :p

Razmo

02-12-08, 08:55 PM

Guys,

I'm new to the 8G lingo. I assume this mean the 8th generation, but how can one be assured of which generation they are purchasing?

Raz

Thebarnman

02-12-08, 08:59 PM

Guys,

I'm new to the 8G lingo. I assume this mean the 8th generation, but how can one be assured of which generation they are purchasing?

Raz

Model number would be one indication. Though you would have to know what model numbers belong to what generation.

jamberi

02-12-08, 09:01 PM

new generation = new models. It's not manufacturing cycles, it's actual new product lineups.

VinceD

02-12-08, 09:06 PM

I am sure displays with fewer defects and only 10% better blacks would make a lot of people happy too.

I agree, based on all the complaints of unhappy Pioneer owners, I would be more concerned about the overall quality of future Pioneer offerings as opposed to black levels.

JackLT

02-12-08, 09:16 PM

What rock did you crawl out from under? ;)

From everything I've read, plasmas are best for gaming. My 6010 is the best I've ever seen for gaming, picture quality and response time.

Then don't hate having to worry about IR and burn in, those are a thing of the past and are usually only mentioned by anti-plasma people. I've left the same image on my 6010 for hours and never even had a flash of IR - this after several evenings of falling asleep watching a movie and the main menu of the movie sitting on the Play Movie button... many times 6-8 hours straight.

And this post was typed on my 6010. I browse the web every time I fire up my HTPC, sometimes spending an hour or two straight looking up info in these forums. :p

That's promising... the 5281 was a big rock.

I agree games look better on the 6010 as well, except for NHL 08 is dimmer wiht the white ice.

Razmo

02-12-08, 09:56 PM

new generation = new models. It's not manufacturing cycles, it's actual new product lineups.

I understand, but how does one know the difference? For example: Do all 8th generation model numbers have an 8G in them?

Raz

chadmak09

02-12-08, 10:05 PM

I understand, but how does one know the difference? For example: Do all 8th generation model numbers have an 8G in them?

Raz

Not sure, But I think if the word "KURO" is in the description of the TV then it is definitly an 8th generation.The ninth Gen will be branded Kuro also but are not availible right now.
Guys is that correct???

spincut

02-12-08, 10:11 PM

It is obvious that Pioneer is not marketed at all, period. You do not see tv ads. for them, you do not hear about them when deals are mentioned, you do not hear about them with regards to what set to buy, you only have to be a member of the AVSforum, be part of a selective group of people, etc. etc. to know what you are getting...it is all weak promoting on Pioneer's part. There's a ton of very expensive LCDs being sold all the time, but not the same holding true for Pioneer.

Not sure about luxury statement:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09/fujitsus-aviamo-1080p-hdtvs/

Just because YOU dont see TV ads doesnt mean there arent any, as a matter of fact Pioneers TV ads are really cool, and they are aired on ALL the tv's at my best buy as Plasma demos (in case you couldnt presume, there's alot of high contrast black and white to show off the kuros black levels in the commercial itself so it can double as a demo).

so yeah, as someone else said, what rock did you crawl out from?

Heck, there is a college bowl game at the end of the year SPONSORED by Pioneer, where they air their commercials at every friggin break.....granted it isnt one of the BCS bowls but it's up there (Pioneer Las Vegas bowl anyone?).

coltsfreak18

02-12-08, 10:13 PM

Not sure, But I think if the word "KURO" is in the description of the TV then it is definitly an 8th generation.The ninth Gen will be branded Kuro also but are not availible right now.
Guys is that correct???well the 8g had the 5080 (80 means 8th gen of 765p pioneers) and the 5010 (the 10 means first gen of 1080p). the 9th gen 50 inch 1080p set is calles the 5020. See where I'm going??? I don't get the elite names

chadmak09

02-12-08, 10:14 PM

Just because YOU dont see TV ads doesnt mean there arent any, as a matter of fact Pioneers TV ads are really cool, and they are aired on ALL the tv's at my best buy as Plasma demos (in case you couldnt presume, there's alot of high contrast black and white to show off the kuros black levels in the commercial itself so it can double as a demo).

so yeah, as someone else said, what rock did you crawl out from?

Heck, there is a college bowl game at the end of the year SPONSORED by Pioneer, where they air their commercials at every friggin break.....granted it isnt one of the BCS bowls but it's up there (Pioneer Las Vegas bowl anyone?).

Is the commercial you are talking about the one where there is a ninja and a japanese guys with a samari sword with smoke coming off of it?
That is a cool commercial and it really shows off blacks good.
Wonder if there is a way for me to get that commercial on BLuray or HDDVD??

coltsfreak18

02-12-08, 10:15 PM

Not sure, But I think if the word "KURO" is in the description of the TV then it is definitly an 8th generation.The ninth Gen will be branded Kuro also but are not availible right now.
Guys is that correct???7g and down (6g, 5g, 4g... etc.) are the purevision displays. The 8g is a kuro, but so is the 9g (and presumably 10g and greater)

xb1032

02-12-08, 10:38 PM

Blacks are a little darker on the Samsung than the XBR4. But not as deep as a Kuro. I would say that the blacks are as dark on the 81F as a Kuro BUT its only because of the local dimming effect which is in my opinion kind of a cheat and does not do as good in shadows as the kuro does. The local dimming looks great when certain parts of the screen are totally black but if there is any detail or image in the shadows you can't see them. With a Kuro you can. Todays LCD's are getting better because of so many new "add-ons" like 120hz, local dimming, LED backlighting, etc. But the Kuro seems to naturally achieve all of the things that LCD uses these add-ons for. Which is why I have chosen to leave the LCD bandwagon and go plasma.

The Samsung 71 (and probably the 81s but I haven't seen them) is the only LCD I care for because of the screen. I bet the 120Hz looked cool gaming though. LCD may catch up one day but I'm sure I'll be looking for the 6020 if I can swing it off this year :).

lipcrkr

02-12-08, 10:54 PM

Elemental1

02-12-08, 11:03 PM

Actually, the Sammy 71 series has deeper blacks than the Sony. And the gloss screen makes it even deeper. The Sony isn't in the same class as the 71 series.

I can see some LCD pushers going for those LCD's while just not too long ago bashing plasma reflections. ;)

chadmak09

02-13-08, 12:38 AM

Actually, the Sammy 71 series has deeper blacks than the Sony. And the gloss screen makes it even deeper. The Sony isn't in the same class as the 71 series.

Totally disagree. The XBR4 IMO outclasses the 71F in almost every area. Blacks are the only thing the 71 has going for it. And the Sony come very close to it. I am not just talking from what I saw at BB either. I actually had both in my home. I took the 71f back and would do it all over again. Processing is decent at best with the 71f. The Bravia does much better with 1080i cable, 720p PS3 games, 1080p blu-ray and Standard Def also. The motionflow of the XBR4 outclasses the automotionplus of the 71f bigtime. The sony's 120hz does not show anywhere near the motion artifacts that the sammy does. much much smoother. Color accuracy was much more accurate with the Sony also. Also, there is virtually no glare or reflection on the XBR4. I did alot of camparing between the 71F and the XBR4 around the same time that another AVS forum member did an at home comparision of the two (the members name is Sharpjunkie). Both of us were die hard LCD supporters who were kinda torn between the 71f and the XBR4.
And now I hear he is also going plasma and going KURO.
I think we will both be happier on the "dark" side.

I only wish I would have known about the Kuro line when I was shopping for the XBR4/71F. I do wish Pioneer did a better job getting the word out on the Kuro's. This would have saved me alot of money. I paid 4000$ for my XBR4 and I am now selling it for 2400$. I have only had the TV for 4 months and i am losing 1600$. and now I have to come up with more cash to get the PDP-6010FD.

spincut

02-13-08, 03:44 AM

Is the commercial you are talking about the one where there is a ninja and a japanese guys with a samari sword with smoke coming off of it?
That is a cool commercial and it really shows off blacks good.
Wonder if there is a way for me to get that commercial on BLuray or HDDVD??

That may be one of them...actually that might be the actual demo, since the commercials are more often black and white imagery with a blakc backdrop, the image i most noteably remember is the picture of an eye with a mouth in the pupil.

videoaddikt

02-13-08, 11:26 AM

I'm far from a Sony fan, but have to agree with chadma09's assessment. The 'tunability' of the XBR4/5 is excellent from the owner's menu, and the potential for achieving close to a cal standard in performance is superior to many displays. Certainly topping other LCDs IMO. (If only the Panny and non-Elite Pioneer plasmas had so many adjustments available).

I have not seen it side by side with a Sammy, although looking at the Sammy it does have very good blacks as well and very nice color. But hey, this was a showroom and not giving either set it's due.
I could not fault anyone for choosing the Sony if they did not want to go the plasma route, which I still think is better (for me, anyway).

Thebarnman

02-13-08, 12:55 PM

Getting back to the original question "When do 9G Kuro's come out??" Maybe summer 2008???

lewdogg

02-13-08, 12:58 PM

Getting back to the original question "When do 9G Kuro's come out??"

EXACTLY!

sma

02-13-08, 03:24 PM

Does anyone have any insight as to whether there will be any power efficiency improvements on the 9G's compared with 8G's? I know the larger power improvements are slated for 10G but I thought I read once that 9G would bring some power efficiency improvements too. I am asking not for electricity bill reasons but rather for buzzing sound reasons. Any other improvements expected for 9G with respect to the buzzing sound reported by some of us 8G owners?

madtapper

02-20-08, 01:00 PM

RomanInvision

02-20-08, 01:09 PM

I too am concerned about "buzzing" from Pioneer tvs. Currently, I own a Pro 940 and experience slight noise, especially on bright scenes. Haven't noticed any buzz from 8Gs in the stores but not really a fair test there. How many 8G owners are having this problem?

Also, wanted to get clarification on the 9G release. Are we talking about summer of 2008? Thanks.

There is a thread about the buzzing and others everywhere. Please read everything in details as the poll might be hard to interpret.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=949003

The estimate is summer of 08 for the G's. Hopefully ASAP :)

b_scott

02-29-08, 04:48 PM

looks like i'll have the cash to flat out buy a 9G 50" 1080p in April, if they're out. hopefully they are, but it's probably more like July.

chadmak09

03-04-08, 10:14 PM

Does anyone have any updates on when the 9th generations will be released?

thanks,
chad

DTV TiVo Dealer

03-04-08, 11:02 PM

Vashti

03-04-08, 11:06 PM

Robert, what do you mean by "Pioneer branded product"? I'm hoping that doesn't imply that they will have already integrated the Panasonic panels.

Oh, and welcome home.

DTV TiVo Dealer

03-04-08, 11:14 PM

Vashti, Thanks, I had a late evening flight that turned into a "Red Eye" as we sat on the tarmac in a completely full 737 at DFW for 3.5 hrs due to serious icy weather. I got home at 3:45 AM this morning and I'm still ticking.

Regarding my poor writing, sorry I did not know how to say it better. I was referring to the distinction between the Pioneer models and Pioneer's Elite line.

-Robert

Vashti

03-04-08, 11:27 PM

No worries. It sounds like a miracle you're speaking English at all tonight. Go get some rest.

I look forward to hearing about your adventures in my home state.

Cronin

03-04-08, 11:34 PM

Vashti

03-04-08, 11:46 PM

You know when a person survives a trauma, sometimes they occlude key information. ;)

But I'm not assuming anything is definite until I hear Friday's report. Wishful thinking? Delusion? You decide.

LamJNS

03-04-08, 11:48 PM

I was informed by one of my local dealers that it would still be pioneer glass. Considering that the first 9G's the xx90 series will appear around July it makes perfect sense. Realistic timeframe for outsourced glass would be late 08 or early 09. Most likely the latter.

Gene

LamJNS

03-04-08, 11:51 PM

Then again you never know. They could already have pulled the plug on full production. The financial report just makes it official. It has been hard to find any of the 8G's in stock, so it may be true after all.

DTV TiVo Dealer

03-04-08, 11:55 PM

Robert, what do you mean by "Pioneer branded product"? I'm hoping that doesn't imply that they will have already integrated the Panasonic panels.

Oh, and welcome home.

Isn't that a given already? The reports have stated that Pioneer will stop manufacturing glass at the end of fiscal '08 which based on their financial reports ends March 31 2008. Whatever the 9G's are, they will seemingly NOT have Pioneer manufactured glass.:mad:
Let's wait for official word before we take the reporters stories as the only and simple outcome they are painting. Not saying it's not true, but at this point no public company statement by any company has surfaced. Maybe Pioneer will make some of the glass on some models maybe all or maybe Panasonic will make all of Pioneer's glass.

And maybe Panasonic will make the glass for Pioneer exclusively to it's patented superior design and considering the better circuity and video processing and design Pioneer maintain on the forefront of delivering the world class product that all others will continue to only aspire to achieve.

Lots of unanswered questions and different products that may pan out. So as you have said in another post, which echo's the thoughts of many of us is how will the final Pioneer 9G models perform. Time will soon tell.

-Robert

p59teitel

03-04-08, 11:58 PM

Isn't that a given already? The reports have stated that Pioneer will stop manufacturing glass at the end of fiscal '08 which based on their financial reports ends March 31 2008. Whatever the 9G's are, they will seemingly NOT have Pioneer manufactured glass.:mad:

Actually, the CNBC linked Thomson story that began the "No More Kuro Panels? Pioneer Gets Out of Plasma Panel Biz" a/k/a Hysteria Thread only states that Pioneer may stop producing glass "this year," and makes no reference to the fiscal year.

Other stories have recited the end of the 2008 fiscal year as the stop date, so who knows what is actually going on. It probably makes more sense to simply wait until Friday's announcement than to continue speculating as to their plans.

Cronin

03-05-08, 12:09 AM

we sat on the tarmac in a completely full 737 at DFW for 3.5 hrs due to serious icy weather. I got home at 3:45 AM this morning and I'm still ticking.

That is a JOKE!!! I would be PO'ed beyond belief! Any more than 30 min to an hour AT MOST and they should let the passengers off the plane and, given the late hour, put them up in a hotel. Wasn't there a fiasco this summer when Jetblue did just that at JFK in NY? Isn't it bad enough they only serve you peanuts and half a soda on a 7hr. transcontintental flight these days?

DTV TiVo Dealer

03-05-08, 12:40 AM

Very long and uncomfortable evening. The airline offered us nothing, but I must say everyone was quiet and did not complain much.

Anyway, I'm off for some much needed sleep... see you all tomorrow.

Good night and good luck.

-Robert

slbosse

03-05-08, 10:51 AM

Any more than 30 min to an hour AT MOST and they should let the passengers off the plane and, given the late hour, put them up in a hotel.

I tend to agree, given the late hour. But I had this happen to me in Newark one afternoon: 3.5 hours on the ground due to a severe t-storm in the departure corridor (even though it was sunny where we were.) The reason the pilots gave for not letting us back in the terminal even though we were still parked at the gate is that if they opened the door we would lose our place in the departure line once the airport re-opened. As it was, we ended up being the 6th plane to take off after the delay, and looking back at the line of planes it easily would have taken another 2 hours to get all of them off the ground.

Glad you made it home safe, Robert! Now back on topic...

dfchang

03-05-08, 01:04 PM

As of today, Pioneer is on target to begin shipping 9G 50" Pioneer branded product in July followed by 50" Elite and 60" non-Elite PDP-6020FD in August and finally the Elite 60" 9G Kuro's in September of 2008.

Later, likely October to no later than mid November we'll see a second line up in 50" and 60" and hopefully some surprise addition to the growing line up.

-Robert

Hi Robert,

I'm a little confused by "second line up in 50 and 60 inches"

Why would Pioneer release another series of T.V.s less than a month after the 9G's. Are these the panels with the new Panasonic glass or are we talking about cosmetic differences such as thinner profile, bezel, etc? Or are we actually talking about advance in technology like Extreme Contrast Concept etc?

There are rumors of an eventual 80 inch model which I think may be starting to get out of most people's price ranges. Is a 70 or 75 inch model that is sub 10K MSRP in the works since that seems a bit more marketable.

And will we FINALLY hear some price points this Friday?

Thanks for the clarification, Robert. I tried buying from you but was told that you don't ship to California . . . :)

Dennis

Starbuckdell

03-05-08, 01:17 PM

gsr

03-05-08, 03:22 PM

As of today, Pioneer is on target to begin shipping 9G 50" Pioneer branded product in July followed by 50" Elite and 60" non-Elite PDP-6020FD in August and finally the Elite 60" 9G Kuro's in September of 2008.

Later, likely October to no later than mid November we'll see a second line up in 50" and 60" and hopefully some surprise addition to the growing line up.
I realize you may be somewhat limited in just what you're allowed to say, but can you at least give us a hint if the suprise would be a larger Elite panel? I'm looking to replace my current 65" RPTV (Mits WS-65909 Diamond Series) sometime this year. I'm leaning heavily towards going with a 9G Pioneer Elite plasma, but I'd REALLY like to stick with 65" or larger (assuming I can afford it). Dropping down to 60" wouldn't be the end of the world (it would work out to about 2" less vertically and 4" less horizontally), but if I knew that a larger panel was going to be available "soon", I would likely hold off my purchase for it.

boe

03-05-08, 03:38 PM

I I'm looking to replace my current 65" RPTV (Mits WS-65909 Diamond Series) sometime this year.

I'm in the same boat, I have a 65" that I'd like to upgrade at some point but I wouldn't even consider anything smaller than 75" to replace it. It won't be much of an upgrade otherwise - sure there is 1080p and better HDMI input but most CRT RPTV's mits produced have pictures at LEAST on par with most current flat panels (not just my opinion - also that of many experts from various magazines - although none like the bulk of the RPTVs).

I'm sure there are many other points of comparison but everyone I know with a good RP CRT still says they haven't seen much in the way of picture quality on new sets that really makes them want to upgrade but everyone I know seems to want to get something bigger to replace their 65" whether they have RPTV, plasma, LCD or DLP.

Brent Madden

03-05-08, 10:40 PM

I'm in the same boat, I have a 65" that I'd like to upgrade at some point but I wouldn't even consider anything smaller than 75" to replace it. It won't be much of an upgrade otherwise - sure there is 1080p and better HDMI input but most CRT RPTV's mits produced have pictures at LEAST on par with most current flat panels (not just my opinion - also that of many experts from various magazines - although none like the bulk of the RPTVs).

Most of the "expert" reviews I've read say the KURO 50" and 60" plasmas are the best HDTVs they've seen. Ever.

boe

03-05-08, 11:44 PM

Most of the "expert" reviews I've read say the KURO 50" and 60" plasmas are the best HDTVs they've seen. Ever.

I agree, they are the best I've seen as well- that is why when they come out with a 9G that is greater than 70" I'll want to get one.

gus738

03-06-08, 02:40 AM

is their an article that says a possible date on the new pioneers? i cant belive it kuro came not too long ago now the newer un mesurable ones are coming?

pioneer as far as being out of plasma? my theory is that while they are in a hole profits shares etc etc they may go into the lcd RE brand just to make a profit .... ex pioneer makes a deal with sharp , sharp sells more prodcuts and pioneer gets a piece of cut and maybe boost their revenues?

while at the same time discontinued the current kuro line up to make up for the new 9g kuro? again this is just a thought....

as far as prices goes how do they compare? for example a 50" 5080 cost around 2gs 2,500 . i know the new ones are 1080p only but price wise how much are they to the 720p 42" 50"?

slbosse

03-06-08, 02:51 AM

I don't think there's been any firm word or article with release dates yet. As for the 9G's, they are simply replacing last year's 8G's in a normal model-year upgrade timeline - maybe a month or two earlier than normal, but nothing surprising about it... other than the 8G's becoming scarce so early. Also, the upcoming 9G's will have another improvement in black levels, but will NOT have the "unmeasurable" blacks you are referring to. That technology was supposed to be for the 10G's, but that's a bit up in the air right now.

JimP

03-06-08, 05:55 AM

Isn't this the big question that many of us are asking.

How will the recent announcement about Panasonic furnishing glass for Pioneer affect black level and other improvements?

westa6969

03-06-08, 06:50 AM

If Samsung has failed to Pirate the Kuro engineering by now they'd be wise to buy it - they in fact possess the economies of scale and capacity to make it profitable on a world market and financial resources that goes far beyond most CE companies if not all.

While I agree with the proposed Japan Kuratsu theory presented we need to step back 2-3 years ago when Sony was bleeding losses from a similar situation and jumped to a Korean partner that were the opposite in the profits area in Samsung with the mutual 5,000+ patent sharing agreement and a shared plant to do a 180 and return to profitability. Now that they have returned to healthy profits with LCD FP's it should not be all that surprising to see them then strike up a partnership with Sharp a strong Japanese Kuratsu Club Member. Just conjecture based upon reviewing these changes the past 3-4 years. I welcome Pio into teaching Sharp how to perhaps take LCD a few steps further or to perfect the OLED for the future.

Just conjecture while we wait for what reality brings after the loss of HD DVD, SXRD, Fujitsu, Pioneer. What a year!:D

chord2002

03-06-08, 09:15 AM

Slew

03-06-08, 01:22 PM

Does anyone know why only in the US, there are 2 different offerings (elite vs non-elite)?

This is nowhere to be found anywhere else in the world, not even in Japan.

I guess Canada doesn't exist then. :rolleyes: We have both models.

spincut

03-06-08, 03:54 PM

Same goes with car brands - Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinity, etc. It may have something to do with our distinct class-based society and the fact that they know we're willing to pay for something we think is nicer. Who knows.

um what about Toyota/Lexus? and about the fact that that class distinction model is offered outside of america as well?

greenland

03-06-08, 04:10 PM

It is currently 6.09AM March 7th. in Japan. What time is Pioneer supposed to issue their Press release about their new Plasma business plans?

JimP

03-06-08, 05:30 PM

greenland,

This isn't exactly what you asked, but interesting nevertheless.

http://gizmodo.com/364842/pioneer-will-give-kuro-secret-sauce-to-panasonic-says-nikkei

sma

03-06-08, 05:43 PM

It is currently 6.09AM March 7th. in Japan. What time is Pioneer supposed to issue their Press release about their new Plasma business plans?

Not sure exactly but in the larger thread about that issue I think I saw a link that said "to the rest of the word later that day" or something.

JackLT

03-06-08, 05:45 PM

Despite producing a better image than the LCD,
with Pioneer calling it quits, I'd say plamsa is on life support.

Glad I got mine, hope it holds out for 10 years.

Does this mean service in a few years on current products will be impossible due to lack of parts, maybe buying a 'replacement' service plan would be a good idea?

slb

03-06-08, 06:50 PM

Despite producing a better image than the LCD,
with Pioneer calling it quits, I'd say plamsa is on life support.

I don't think this is true. First, it doesn't appear that Pioneer is quitting the display business, just partnering with Panasonic. Second, manufacturing costs for plasma displays are projected to fall faster than those for LCDs for the next several years. Combined with anticipated improvements in brightness and black level, plasma displays will become much more competitive. Plasma manufacturers should be able to continue significantly undercutting the price of LCDs while maintaining higher profit margins than LCD manufacturers.

-Steve

JackLT

03-06-08, 08:58 PM

I don't think this is true. First, it doesn't appear that Pioneer is quitting the display business, just partnering with Panasonic. Second, manufacturing costs for plasma displays are projected to fall faster than those for LCDs for the next several years. Combined with anticipated improvements in brightness and black level, plasma displays will become much more competitive. Plasma manufacturers should be able to continue significantly undercutting the price of LCDs while maintaining higher profit margins than LCD manufacturers.

-Steve

Hope your right, its a very misunderstood product, was by me too until I purchased a Pioneer,
but I go to the shops and for every plasma, I see 10 LCDs and its growing.

Nambit

03-06-08, 09:01 PM

Does anyone know why only in the US, there are 2 different offerings (elite vs non-elite)?

This is nowhere to be found anywhere else in the world, not even in Japan.

Ever heard of *CANADA* ????

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Products/Home+Entertainment/Plasma+TVs+%26+Monitors

russwong

03-06-08, 11:54 PM

PRO-111FD 50" 1080p MSRP - $5000
PR0-151FD 60" 1080p MSRP - $7000

russwong

03-07-08, 12:17 AM

Also, supposedly, 2 of the panels will be monitors only again, like the FHD1.

May is when the Road Show will be, which is where more info will be available.

Russ

Vashti

03-07-08, 12:24 AM

Thanks, Russ!

DFul4d

03-07-08, 12:37 AM

PRO-111FD 50" 1080p MSRP - $5000
PR0-151FD 60" 1080p MSRP - $7000

Thanks! What about the non-elite line?

russwong

03-07-08, 01:01 AM

I suspect it will follow the same trend of $1000 less for the non-elites.

Thanks! What about the non-elite line?

AuDiOBoY529

03-07-08, 01:21 AM

Russ -

Can we confirmed that these are pioneer panels on the 9G sets? Panasonic never made a 60 " set.

Peejay926

03-07-08, 01:44 AM

Russ -

Can we confirmed that these are pioneer panels on the 9G sets? Panasonic never made a 60 " set.

god i hope so

dfchang

03-07-08, 03:28 AM

According to another thread which links to the actual press release, the 9G panels will likely be the last true Pioneer panels.

coltsfreak18

03-07-08, 07:25 AM

PRO-111FD 50" 1080p MSRP - $5000
PR0-151FD 60" 1080p MSRP - $7000wow. I was hoping for a much more drastic drop for the 151. I have to save my pennies now. :(

adrian ballard

03-07-08, 09:45 AM

more of a drop in MSRP?
I Think this is actually in line as it appears $500 less and with (hopefully) better tech than the 8Gs.

greenland

03-07-08, 09:59 AM

wow. I was hoping for a much more drastic drop for the 151. I have to save my pennies now. :(

Do not overlook the change in currency exchange rates since last year. The dollar is much weaker now, so if you factor that in, the price drops are larger than one would think at first glance. As the exchange rate value of the dollar keeps on dropping, we can expect to see import prices actually go up, to compensate for the weaker dollar.

xb1032

03-07-08, 10:37 AM

I suspect it will follow the same trend of $1000 less for the non-elites.

Looks like the 50" models dropped $1000 in the elites but only $500 on the 60" version. I hope the non-elite 60" version drops more than $500. That would really suck if not but not enough to drive me away:o. If not, some of us will just have to hope the forum sponsors continue with the generous discounts.

rcgustafson

03-07-08, 02:36 PM

More 9G info..
Also, supposedly, 2 of the panels will be monitors only again, like the FHD1.

Does this translate to the Pioneer commercial line? When would they be released? (The FHD1 was also sold under another model number as a commercial unit.)

RobbyTV

03-08-08, 08:17 AM

If the non elite 9G's are coming out in June... will the retail price of these sets come out first?

I would not pay 4 grand for a TV... out of my budget. when I can get a 9G 50" at 3 grand... then I would go for it.

Will the 1150HD have better color accuracy than the 5020FD? and how much brighter will the 5020FD be versus the 5080 or 1150 ?

PRO-111FD 50" 1080p MSRP - $5000
PR0-151FD 60" 1080p MSRP - $7000

Artwood

03-08-08, 12:04 PM

How much better are the 9Gs going to be over the 8Gs?

The $64,000 question is whether 2009 plasmas badged as either Pioneer or Panasonic will have worse picture quality than the 9Gs?

Who wants to bet that 2009 models will be BRIGHTER with worse blacks than the 9Gs?

If it happens remember you heard it here first.

Probably in 2009 the highest line models will have blacks as good as the 9Gs but they'll charge 10 trillion dollars for them--everyone else will buy brighter plasmas with worse blacks.

BriS2K

03-08-08, 12:36 PM

JimP

03-08-08, 12:37 PM

I see Artwood hasn't lost any of his charm.

greenland

03-08-08, 01:42 PM

I see Artwood hasn't lost any of his charm.

It is very difficult to lose what one never had.;)

Artwood

03-08-08, 08:46 PM

It's also very difficult for the charming people here to ever contemplate such things as video quality going Backwards for greater profits and units sold.

I think the Pioneer black levels that will be set this year with the ALL Pioneer sets might not be equaled next year and that BRIGHTER sets will be offered with slightly less performance in terms of blacks.

If you don't think such a thing could happen just look at LCD--it has been extremely BRIGHT with pathetic blacks here for years and how many people have acted as though it was an Acceptable trade-off compromise?

Next year when the Plasmas are brighter and blacks aren't as good come back and tell me how charming that will be to you.

It won't be for me--course they sold alot of 1974 Mustang IIs and I thought they were pathetic, too!

wagnerc

03-08-08, 09:48 PM

What is the width of the 9G 60"?
57" 15/16 is to wide. I need it to be 57" to replace my current RPTV.
I would love a set which was "monitors only again".
(1xDVI or PC, 4xHDMI, 2xComponent)

omeletpants

03-08-08, 10:11 PM

JimP

03-09-08, 08:07 AM

cajieboy

03-09-08, 11:06 AM

Weren't you crowing the last time you were off your meds about how plasma was dead and SED was the new wave of the future and everyone needs to get rid of their dead technology plasmas? :D

Wrong guy, that was Auditor55. Seems legit to question the quality of a future Pioneer that will be using outsourced glass vs. a present Pioneer that is 100% in-house PDP. It's a big question that I definitely would like to know.

Artwood

03-09-08, 02:53 PM

If black level performance does in fact drop in 2009 then many people might want to buy the 9Gs from Pioneer because it may be awhile before we see their amount of performance again.

Now don't get me wrong--I can certainly see why Panasonic is focusing on BRIGHTNESS--if they don't the LCD plague might overtake the world and put plasma out of buisness. That would be terrible!

As for the tin foil and welcome back to the planet pearls of widom I've heard them all before.

Invariably they always surface whenever I point out where the video display industry heads in a non performance direction.

I guess if you're not with whatever the industry wants to sell that you're a nut!

Well this nut has been here for ahwile and won't be leaving.

You would think that by now th PR departments of the Video display industry could come up with better put down than the childish ones they recycle over and over.

Another thing I don't understand is people thinking that pioneer going out of the glass manyufacturing buisness will mean that it will always have equivalent glass to Panasonic.

Remember how NEC glass was equivalent to Pioneer glass and then all of a sudden that wasn't the case anymore?

Why wouldn't the same scenario play out with Pioneer and Panasonic?

And if they're getting out of the glass buisness are you going to tell me that they're going to spend trillions on video processing--NEC used to have great video processing--who cares about them anymore?

Face it--sooner or later there will not be anymore Pioneer great perfromance.

Now Panasonic may spend the money to continue the trail that Pioneer has blazed--but that is not certain--they won't have to do so if nobody is pushing them--all they'll have to do is be marginally better than Samsung.

My gut feeling is that Panasonic would like to be the LAST Plasma producer and have all of that market to themselves.

And there's a big difference between wanting to be the BEST and wanting to be the LAST.

So I guess I've offended both the Panasonic and the Pioneer lovers here but that is not my intention.

Both companies now produce better plasmas than they ever have and BOTH put LCD in the toilet.

All I'm pointing out is that believing that will still be the case in the future is about as silly as believing in LCoS or HD-DVD!

It may be true or it may not be true!

My advice would be to buy a 9G while you have the chance.

If later on Panasonic makes even better Plasmas I will be QUITE happy to hear others here tell me I TOLD YOU SO!

I'd much rather have better Picture Quality than be able to say I TOLD YOU SO!

Wouldn't everyone agree with that?

blklacker

03-09-08, 03:41 PM

Never Pio has stopped making plasmas. they are only going to produce LCD from now on.

coltsfreak18

03-09-08, 04:16 PM

Never Pio has stopped making plasmas. they are only going to produce LCD from now on.Are the PDP-5020, 6020 and the pro-111 and 151 LCDs. Last time I checked, they are pioneer kuro plasmas. The LCDs will basically be rebranded sharps (maybe a little something more).

vercingetorix

03-09-08, 04:22 PM

Experts,

If a 9G Kuro is released in 65 or 70", what would you guess the MSRP to be? Same as the 60" when first released?

dssturbo1

03-09-08, 04:22 PM

Never Pio has stopped making plasmas. they are only going to produce LCD from now on.

you are wrong ........ :eek:

dssturbo1

03-09-08, 04:24 PM

Experts,

If a 9G Kuro is released in 65 or 70", what would you guess the MSRP to be? Same as the 60" when first released?

no experts needed. it's not happening in the 9G lineup.

but i'll play, if they woulda brought out a 70" 9G i'd guess $10-11K msrp minimum.

coltsfreak18

03-09-08, 04:31 PM

no experts needed. it's not happening in the 9G lineup.

but i'll play, if they woulda brought out a 70" 9G i'd guess $10-11K msrp minimum.I'd say less... 8.5-9.5 grand. Maybe 8 if we are lucky. The 8g had had a 1,500 difference in the MSRPs of 10" sizes of the 50 and 60. Plus about $1000 for the difficulty of making that large of a display... 8g MSRP 10 grand. The $2000 decrease between the 150 and 151 made me choose my size.

Artwood

03-09-08, 11:01 PM

The correct answer is $8,987.96.

brentsg

03-09-08, 11:16 PM

Never Pio has stopped making plasmas. they are only going to produce LCD from now on.

Beautiful, you actually are posting this in several threads. Wow...

gus738

03-09-08, 11:20 PM

gus738

03-09-08, 11:22 PM

Does anyone have a good idea as to what the 50 and 50 inch Elite and non-Elite's will run in price range? I would like to have a general idea before I consider buying an 8g plasma from Pioneer. But if I can get the 9g within a few hundred of what the 8g is now, I will consider waiting a few more months.

i would like to know this too before going with the 4280 or 5080...

Hi Robert,

I'm a little confused by "second line up in 50 and 60 inches"

Why would Pioneer release another series of T.V.s less than a month after the 9G's. Are these the panels with the new Panasonic glass or are we talking about cosmetic differences such as thinner profile, bezel, etc? Or are we actually talking about advance in technology like Extreme Contrast Concept etc?

There are rumors of an eventual 80 inch model which I think may be starting to get out of most people's price ranges. Is a 70 or 75 inch model that is sub 10K MSRP in the works since that seems a bit more marketable.

And will we FINALLY hear some price points this Friday?

Thanks for the clarification, Robert. I tried buying from you but was told that you don't ship to California . . . :)

Dennis

i too would like to know this ....

cjre1

03-09-08, 11:25 PM

Come on everyone,
Roman or a senior person, please chime in here. Does anyone know how much the new 9G's are? I have read over 500 post and some say high price and some say a lower price. Does anyone really know anything (Spec Wise) regarding the new 9G's. I hear brigther, darker when off, is that all? Is that true? Any news on the bezel? Speaker locations and sizes? Are these new sets made with a paany glass? Confirm??

I know someone has leaked this out from Pio, please spill the beans. Thanks.

Peejay926

03-09-08, 11:40 PM

Okay now I'm getting confused. The next Pioneers IS going to be a Panasonic panel correct?

gus738

03-09-08, 11:44 PM

LCDs are best for gaming, and use in bright rooms.

Kuro plasmas have a better image for movies and HDTV in a light dimmed area.

As much as a love the Kuro 6010,
I hate having to worry about image retention and burn in when leaving the PVR on pause, or walking away from the PS3 / 360 menu for too long. With an LCD you dont worry. I wouldnt even try web browsing on the plasma, but used to do it all the time on the LCD.

If I had the space both would be great, but if choosing one its plasma for me, and just being extra careful with it.

your wrong lol what do we have a tv for? to enjoy the best possible picture right? that makes a plasma best for video games ( think xbr4 being flagship and looks crappy) that being said lcd arent so great are they?:rolleyes:
when i first got my panny PX75u i did NO break in and i played H3 COD4 letter boxed dvd 4:3 content .... sure i may of had IR after abusing the tv all morning to overnight .... but no damage...

as far as walking away paused or "forgets to sleep" i would have to say 2 things

1) i work for sears and we have our plasma stuck on Main menu and NO burn in or any damge

2) they have "shut down acitvated" .......

Sorry for going off topic i just thought i would clear some things out ....

back to 9g kuro thread.... are the 9g kuro the tvs that have the current 8g tv side by side with this SUper black new pioneer? or is that the 10g?

theirs a few pics of those floating somewhere on the net do you guys know which ones i mean? if so then Crazy these new kuro are going to be amazing....

please can you guys answer my last questions on my previous post ?

peejay no the current upcoming 9g kuro will NOT have anything to do with panasonic

leonreno

03-09-08, 11:56 PM

Okay now I'm getting confused. The next Pioneers IS going to be a Panasonic panel correct?

According to Pioneer's press releases, the 9G Pioneers (those to be released this summer) will have glass panels made by Pioneer. The generation to be released in 2009 will be Panasonic glass panels.

This also got me thinking. I know Pioneer states they are not able to produce glass at a competitive price, which is probably true. But the fact that they are waiting til 2009 to outsource their glass got me thinking. Accoriding to many sources on this forum the 11G (2009) plasmas from Panasonic are suppose to have very good blacks (5/10 lumen tech) that shoud rival that of Pioneers current and 9G panels, maybe even their ECC panels. So, if Pioneer kept producing panels themselves, and trying to sell them at a might premium, Panasonic would probably wipe them out with their much cheaper cost of manufacturing. Once Panasonic equals (or at least closely equals) Pioneers black levels nobody would pay much of a premium for Pioneer. So, seeing the writing on the wall, they went to Panasonic to source their cheaper manufacturing capabilities to produce their own panels. Sounds very smart indeed. Otherwise Panasonic would have REALLY put a hurting on them in 2009+, and it may have been to late to outsource panels by then.

russwong

03-10-08, 12:21 AM

If you've actually read the post, you would know that the pricing is not finalized. I've listed some Elite pricing and D-Nice has pointed out that they are still flushing things out, especially with this economy. You will get official answers in May which is the Pioneer Road Show. Until then, it's only currently planned numbers, which are subject to change.

They will still be Pio glass for the 9G.

Come on everyone,
Roman or a senior person, please chime in here. Does anyone know how much the new 9G's are? I have read over 500 post and some say high price and some say a lower price. Does anyone really know anything (Spec Wise) regarding the new 9G's. I hear brigther, darker when off, is that all? Is that true? Any news on the bezel? Speaker locations and sizes? Are these new sets made with a paany glass? Confirm??

I know someone has leaked this out from Pio, please spill the beans. Thanks.

dfchang

03-10-08, 03:15 AM

Also the dates are in flux as well.

According to Robert, the releases will be staggered with Elite 60 inch Kuros coming out as late as September. Another source has stated with some confidence that essentially all models will be out by June/July.

Finally, I suspect that the "other" 50 and 60 inch displays that Robert is talking about that will be released later this year will be the displays without speakers or tuners that are thinner/lighter . . . much like the ProFHD1.

As for pricing, it is in flux but per Russ, I think 7K is the high end for the Elite. That means 6K for the non-Elite 60 and everything goes from there. The range DNice is giving which is a full 500 to 1500 below that seems pretty far-fetched (I think he was saying 5500 to 6500 for the elite 60). I mean at 5500 we are seeing an MSRP drop of TWO GRAND from 8G to 9G and that's not street price. That's insane.

I'd be ecstatic if this is true but it is really, really hard to believe that in only one year, costs can be contained to the point where we are seeing MSRP prices for 9Gs that is essentially COST prices for the 8Gs . . .

I'd be very, very, very happy if an Elite 60 9G releases for 6K.

We'll all find out the definitive models, pricing, and release in May so patience is the watchword here.

Dennis

cajieboy

03-10-08, 03:41 AM

According to Pioneer's press releases, the 9G Pioneers (those to be released this summer) will have glass panels made by Pioneer. The generation to be released in 2009 will be Panasonic glass panels.

This also got me thinking. I know Pioneer states they are not able to produce glass at a competitive price, which is probably true. But the fact that they are waiting til 2009 to outsource their glass got me thinking. Accoriding to many sources on this forum the 11G (2009) plasmas from Panasonic are suppose to have very good blacks (5/10 lumen tech) that shoud rival that of Pioneers current and 9G panels, maybe even their ECC panels. So, if Pioneer kept producing panels themselves, and trying to sell them at a might premium, Panasonic would probably wipe them out with their much cheaper cost of manufacturing. Once Panasonic equals (or at least closely equals) Pioneers black levels nobody would pay much of a premium for Pioneer. So, seeing the writing on the wall, they went to Panasonic to source their cheaper manufacturing capabilities to produce their own panels. Sounds very smart indeed. Otherwise Panasonic would have REALLY put a hurting on them in 2009+, and it may have been to late to outsource panels by then.

This whole Pioneer/Panasonic glass deal has me really stretching for answers. First, at CES 2008, about 45 days ago, Pioneer wows the world w/its totally new super thin Plasma displays and black levels/contrast that even SED worshipers would die for. Not only does Pioneer seem more than ready to compete w/OLED displays in the near future, but will actually beat them to market by a mile in more ways than one.

Now, a month or two later, Pioneer ups and makes a deal w/Panasonic to oursource the glass on its PDP's. Not sure if this includes that super-thin model, or only the other models. Maybe it's Panasonic's expertise in producing very large glass for its PDP's that has Pioneer's main interests?

gus738

03-10-08, 04:30 AM

so for what i can gatherd based on this thread and project kuro thread.... like any model theirs always an upgraded slight better enhanced model.... which is always going to be known to happen for technology , while many want to consider current 8g kuro the only reason why im holding back is because the possblity for a newer better model in a few months for a lower priced tag right? atleast we assume to be lower right?
but im kinda thinking twice about since what if pioneer use worse bulid quality on the 9g? then 8g will be long gone by then.....

and fianly would current 8g be on the market by the time 9g shows up?

JimP

03-10-08, 05:06 AM

spincut

03-10-08, 06:37 AM

We'll all find out the definitive models, pricing, and release in May so patience is the watchword here.

Dennis

Why would you assure people that may is when we're finding out? Wasnt Febuary the time when Pioneer was going to unveil everything? as far as i can tell that assured window as come and gone.

cajieboy

03-10-08, 11:40 AM

Just because Panasonic is going to be making Pioneer's glass, why does everyone assume that it won't be to Pioneer's specifications? If you reread the actual news articles, if anything, Panasonic will be able to use some of the technology to improve their own glass panels. No where do I read that Pioneer plasmas will use lesser Panasonic technogy.

I for one, am not assuming anything. This new Pioneer development in their mfg'ering process is simply an "unknown". But it's fair to say that Pioneer and Panasonic have two different philosophies when it comes to designing, mfg'ering and marketing their displays. You can't simply dismiss the fact that consumers that are accustomed to the quality of a Pioneer may have some doubt or questions about the matter. Many here, including myself, were quite happy & pleased with the development and advancements in PDP video tech that Pioneer has recently shown, and to now switch to out-sourced Panny glass poses these questions of build quality, reliability, etc.

I hope everything is hunky-dori in Plasma Land, and if the fantastic Fujitsu Plasmas are any guide as to what to expect from a well-made out-sourced Panny glass PDP, then I'd have to give the prospect OK marks. But right now, it remains an unknown factor to consider.

ferro

03-10-08, 12:58 PM

.......

dont want to sound rude but can we talk more about the actual thread related....

"when do 9g kuro's come out?"

how does everyone know the model numbers of the 9g kuro? is there a link? better yet where can i find any information regarding 9g kuro's?

According to Jürgen Timm, Product Manager of the "Home Entertainment Business Group" of Pioneer Germany:

New 50" and 60" plasma models this spring.
New plasma models smaller than 50" late summer/autumn.

slbosse

03-10-08, 01:23 PM

But I think I recall seeing somewhere else that Europe was getting the new models before the US. And in the PIO question & answer sheet that someone just posted in another thread, Pioneer stated that there is high demand still in Europe and Japan for 42" plasma sets, but that demand does not extend to America, so I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Post 784 here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1003092&page=27

For the US, I'm still expecting 50" and 60" plasma models only, to be released in late summer through early fall. And then sometime later - maybe even next year? - we'll see Pio-branded LCD's in sub-50" sizes. The other thing I'm wondering about is that in one of the other Pioneer statements posted, they were adamant in stating that their Plasma future lies in the 50" - 70" range for Home theaters, indicating that anything smaller favors LCD's and anything larger favors Projectors... so that would certainly seem to indicate that a 70" Plasma is in their business model. Not sure if that is this year or next...

Vashti

03-10-08, 02:32 PM

I predict a 70" elite this fall. (I got a hint from someone I can't quote.)

eXclusive

03-10-08, 02:59 PM

Vashti,

I highly highly doubt we'll see a 70" Pio this year. Not only from everything I've read from people-in-the-know, but it is also a question of manufacturing. Pioneer simply does not have a 70" line, and we have read about all the manufacturing cuts back they are doing (ie. no NEW line).

Having said that, again from everything I've read, I would put my money on there being something >60" in the 2009 / "10G" line-up. Either a 65" or something even bigger from a new Panasonic line, that is then built by Pio

Vashti

03-10-08, 03:04 PM

If I turn out to be right, can I say I told you so? Please? ;)

boe

03-10-08, 03:08 PM

I predict a 70" elite this fall. (I got a hint from someone I can't quote.)

Excellent- finally something big enough for the bedroom. Please find out from your source if Pioneer is working on anything that one might want to use for the living room besides a projector.

Thanks

eXclusive

03-10-08, 03:21 PM

If I turn out to be right, can I say I told you so? Please? ;)

Haha, definately, as long as I can do the same :)

RichB

03-10-08, 05:32 PM

If I turn out to be right, can I say I told you so? Please? ;)

If they do, maybe it will be made by Panasonic.

- Rich

JimP

03-10-08, 10:48 PM

Excellent- finally something big enough for the bedroom. Please find out from your source if Pioneer is working on anything that one might want to use for the living room besides a projector.

Thanks

A 70" for the bedroom? :eek:

Edit: quit thinking dirty :)

Artwood

03-10-08, 11:27 PM

A 70-inch makes perfect sense--as Panasonic and Pioneers get more and more alike in the future--the high priced brand--Pioneer will have to do something to distinguish itself.

What better than a 70-inch for people who think that a Panasonic 65-inch isn't big enough.

Equal quality--SIZE wins!

ChuckZ

03-10-08, 11:41 PM

Right now, the only news I care about re Pioneer 9G PDPs is the MSRP pricing.

Artwood

03-10-08, 11:49 PM

HDPeeT

03-11-08, 12:56 AM

cajieboy

03-11-08, 01:02 AM

Why should you care--you know the MSRP will be ridiculously high because they will be the greatest Plasmas ever made and Pioneer knows they can sell them for an obscene amount of money!

Starting next year the slow degradation in plasma performance in favor of price will accelerate.

I fear we are doomed to the plague of LCD.

Can you see it--5 years from now--no plasma and LCD performance worse than todays performance and idiots here at the forum talking about great picture quality.

Sorry Art, can't agree with your bleak assessment of near future displays. My crystal ball sees the upcoming 5-year display marketplace a bit differently, and I'm basing my optimism on what transpired at the 2008 CES. Large 60+" screen sizes will dominate, LCD will continue to improve dramatically & dominate in numbers, very large super-thin immeasureable black level Plasmas will be the norm w/still better PQ than LCD, and OLED displays will be coming into their own market share.:D

HDPeeT

03-11-08, 01:11 AM

^^^^^I'm with him. No way quality is going downhill because 1 company had a piss poor business plan.

Yog

03-11-08, 01:55 AM

no experts needed. it's not happening in the 9G lineup.

but i'll play, if they woulda brought out a 70" 9G i'd guess $10-11K msrp minimum.

Its interesting that 9G or 10G 70" Kuro Plasma will be between 8-12K.

Sony is selling their 70" LCD for CAD$ 34,999. :rolleyes:

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1003751&navigationPath=32050n100188

HeLLSpiRE

03-11-08, 02:29 PM

this is assuming Pioneer Kuros will be around for 10G ^^

RobbyTV

03-11-08, 02:40 PM

Well if Panasonic can't make them to Pioneer's Specs... then who knows what will happen.

But if I had to put my money on it... I would put my money on the 10G Kuro with no hesitation.

this is assuming Pioneer Kuros will be around for 10G ^^

dark1x

03-11-08, 04:43 PM

So, I'm unclear about the 9th generation panels...

Are we going to see Pioneer glass or Panasonic glass behind them? Or do we know nothing at this point?

I was under the impression that the "infinite" contrast panels shown at CES would be used in the 9th generation Pioneer panels. If that is not the case, well, I don't see any reason to even bother with releasing them. Panasonic glass sucks right now.

Even when used in high-end panels (B&O, for instance), the flaws of the Panasonic glass shine through (dithering in dark regions). No amount of processing seems to be able to solve the flaws present in the glass. Year after year, Panasonic panels continue to suffer from this. They simply refuse to address it.

RobbyTV

03-11-08, 04:56 PM

Pioneer Q&A Quote:
When is the production line changing and will it
affect the upcoming line of KURO televisions?

The industry will not see any production changes in 2008, the next generation of KURO is already in production in Pioneer's factories.

So, I'm unclear about the 9th generation panels...

Are we going to see Pioneer glass or Panasonic glass behind them? Or do we know nothing at this point?

I was under the impression that the "infinite" contrast panels shown at CES would be used in the 9th generation Pioneer panels. If that is not the case, well, I don't see any reason to even bother with releasing them. Panasonic glass sucks right now.

Even when used in high-end panels (B&O, for instance), the flaws of the Panasonic glass shine through (dithering in dark regions). No amount of processing seems to be able to solve the flaws present in the glass. Year after year, Panasonic panels continue to suffer from this. They simply refuse to address it.

dssturbo1

03-11-08, 07:38 PM

.....
Are we going to see Pioneer glass or Panasonic glass behind them? Or do we know nothing at this point?

I was under the impression that the "infinite" contrast panels shown at CES would be used in the 9th generation Pioneer panels. If that is not the case, well, I don't see any reason to even bother with releasing them. Panasonic glass sucks right now.........

the 9G will be using Pioneer glass.

your impresssion is wrong the ECC shown at CES will not be in the new 9G models. if we are lucky we may see some of it in the 10G.

Vashti

03-11-08, 07:42 PM

What I had read here (what thread, I don't remember) is that ECC will be implemented in the 10th generation - but that some of the its technology would be used in the 9th generation.

RobbyTV

03-11-08, 09:25 PM

it has not yet been confirmed that ECC will be fully implemented in 2009 on the 10G.
but it has been confirmed that in 2009 that Pioneer will be using Panasonic panels.
so right now the bad news out ways the potential good news.

I can't wait much longer... so for me the 9G makes the most sense. But if the 9G is not brighter than the 8G.... I will pass and wait for something else.

remember.... plasma TV's go dim over time.... so the extra brightness will be great to have.... the 60" Kuro right now looks to be on the dim side... so I am sure they will up the brightness this year for the 9G. But I have learned not to trust what anybody says until the facts come out. So far it has not been confirmed the 9G will be brighter. Even the new Panasonics are getting brighter... so we will see.

What I had read here (what thread, I don't remember) is that ECC will be implemented in the 10th generation - but that some of the its technology would be used in the 9th generation.

Artwood

03-11-08, 11:50 PM

I hope the 10th generation is great.

But I also hoped that NEC Plasmas would remain great

I hoped that Quadraphonic sound would last

I hoped that SACD and DVD-audio would last and predominate.

I never hoped for or longed for MP3 quality garbage.

I never hoped for increased compression and less and less resolution.

I never hoped that D'ILA or SXRD wouldn't make it.

I hoped for non wobulated DLP.

I hoped for more direct-view CRTs like the Sony 34XBR960 in larger sizes.

Don't tell me that progress is always made on a technological basis in the products that are SOLD.

Sometimes performance goes down.

Car people know this--why is it that supposed TV people never can grasp it?

The 10th generation pioneers and panasonics sets next year will tell the real story--I HOPE that they will get even better.

The difference between a REAL videophile and a POSING videophile is the POSERS believe what they WANT to believe.

Real videophiles see WHAT IS.

Let's HOPE that will be a pretty picture next year and let's HOPE that people next year won't try to SELL us what we might WANT to believe!

jollyrogr

03-12-08, 02:24 AM

If being a videophile means I need to have a pessimistic attitude about everying and spew negative diatribes into every possible thread in internet forums, then I don't want to be one.

I'll be ordering a 9G as soon as they become available.

williamtassone

03-12-08, 10:21 AM

it has not yet been confirmed that ECC will be fully implemented in 2009 on the 10G.
but it has been confirmed that in 2009 that Pioneer will be using Panasonic panels.
so right now the bad news out ways the potential good news.

I can't wait much longer... so for me the 9G makes the most sense. But if the 9G is not brighter than the 8G.... I will pass and wait for something else.

remember.... plasma TV's go dim over time.... so the extra brightness will be great to have.... the 60" Kuro right now looks to be on the dim side... so I am sure they will up the brightness this year for the 9G. But I have learned not to trust what anybody says until the facts come out. So far it has not been confirmed the 9G will be brighter. Even the new Panasonics are getting brighter... so we will see.

yeah but at 60,000 hour half life it would take >20 years to notice any difference

b_scott

03-12-08, 11:19 AM

sorry, scanned through the last posts but didn't see - when are the 50" 9G's most likely due? i'm hoping this summer.

dssturbo1

03-12-08, 11:26 AM

sorry, scanned through the last posts but didn't see - when are the 50" 9G's most likely due? i'm hoping this summer.

summer would be the normal time frame for their new plasma releases.

b_scott

03-12-08, 11:27 AM

thank you

bdraw

03-12-08, 11:37 AM

yeah but at 60,000 hour half life it would take >20 years to notice any difference

Right, but the brightness comes in real handy for watching all the alpine skiing on TV.

cajieboy

03-12-08, 11:53 AM

Right, but the brightness comes in real handy for watching all the alpine skiing on TV.

I don't get your complaints concerning lack of brightness for Pioneer PDP's. Seem fine to me and most situations, and comparable to Tubes. I do find LCD's too bright for my tastes, and in fact I get eye fatigue from viewing them at any length of time. Similar to certain effects of ear fatique when listening to certain speakers in an audio system. Can't say I've watched any alpine skiing since the last Winter Olympics, but I imagine this would only exacerbate the eye fatique effect for me.

chadmak09

03-12-08, 12:04 PM

Sorry Art, can't agree with your bleak assessment of near future displays. My crystal ball sees the upcoming 5-year display marketplace a bit differently, and I'm basing my optimism on what transpired at the 2008 CES. Large 60+" screen sizes will dominate, LCD will continue to improve dramatically & dominate in numbers, very large super-thin immeasureable black level Plasmas will be the norm w/still better PQ than LCD, and OLED displays will be coming into their own market share.:D

I agree.
Lcd black levels and PQ are going to get better. Samsung and Sony are putting alot of money and engineering into LCD. With the exception of OLED, Sony is betting the farm on LCD. I mean look at how much the black levels and PQ of LCD has improved over the past 2-3 years. I think LCD should really start seeing what they can do with LED backlighting.
The samsung 81F reached black levels unheard of for an LCD. It reaches amazing black levels in totally dark scenes But has problems with shadow detail (something that Plasma does great with).
Now, will LCD ever reach the PQ of Plasma? Doubtful, especially if Pioneer continues on the Kuro path and keeps the "pioneer standards" in the Panasonic manufactured panels they will be using in upcoming generation plasmas. I certainly hope Pioneer makes panasonic build thier panels to Pioneers specifications. That would make the Pioneer/Panasonic panel deal a good thing in my book. Production of Pioneer panels would increase and drive down the Price to an affordable level giving LCD a run for its money in the affordability category as well as PQ.

chadmak09

03-12-08, 12:23 PM

Well guys,
It looks like I will be waiting for the 9G's to get my 60 inch Kuro.
The delivery truck came yesterday from Amazon with my replacement 6010 (this one was a replacement for the one that showed up last week D.O.A.).
We unloaded the 6010 and plugged it up. hit the power, and the dreaded loud buzz of death showed up again (and no picture whatsoever again).
How can this be?? 2 D.O.A. 6010's in a row??
I previously had a Sony KDL52XBR4 but promised to sell it to a lady at work becasue I thought I would have a working 6010 2 weeks ago. I sold her the sony last week and went and bought a 5080 to use until my 6010 was delivered.
So I have been using the 5080 for the last week or so. But yesterday they delivered another dead 6010, and amazon is out of stock of 6010's so now I am stuck with the 5080 (which isn't too bad :) ).
I think I will wait and just get a 6020 9th gen plasma. or maybe whatever the 9th gen elite 60incher is called.
One thing I have noticed from going from a Sony KDL52XBR4 to this 5080 is that I can now watch standard Def and enjoy it. The 5080 does great with standard. And regular upconverted DVD's look amazing! The Sony was horrible with Standard!!
But I will admit I do miss the Sony in some circumstances. Especially when gaming because I sit pretty close while gaming and the Text is choppy on the 5080 at close range. but the blacks are better on the 5080.

Who knows,
maybe I will still get a 6010 if I get to where I just can't wait any longer.

p59teitel

03-12-08, 12:41 PM

How can this be?? 2 D.O.A. 6010's in a row??

My 5080 from Invision arrived full of life and in perfect working order. Why not just get a 6010 from one of the forum sponsors who specializes in selling these displays and knows how to warehouse and ship them without wrecking them, instead of continuing to screw around with a company that sells everything under the sun?

chadmak09

03-12-08, 01:13 PM

My 5080 from Invision arrived full of life and in perfect working order. Why not just get a 6010 from one of the forum sponsors who specializes in selling these displays and knows how to warehouse and ship them without wrecking them, instead of continuing to screw around with a company that sells everything under the sun?

Because there is no 30 day return policy with them. If there is a problem like dead pixels then I have to work thru pioneer and can't get a replacement unless pioneer decides it is needed.. And the pixel policys of pioneer are very strange. Who knows what they will consider a defect. If I get a D.O.A. thru a forum sponsor will they replace the TV or will they make me call pioneer and have tech support pick up my TV and possibly keep in for weeks repairing it?
Amazon will replace it immediatly with no questions asked. Even if there is only one dead pixel, they will replace it no questions for any reason.
With my luck, I just felt better having the 30-day return policy.
Now, is it going to be D.O.A. with amazon? lol.
Can you refuse delivery with a forum sponsor if the TV has dead pixelage, or is DoA? Or will they make you keep the TV and call pioneer and deal with the problems yourself? I may consider going with a forun sponsor. who knows
Do the forum sponsors have thier own shipping trucks?? Or are they going to use independant shipping companys just like amazon? If so then how can you say "they know how to ship without wrecking things"??

JimP

03-12-08, 01:20 PM

p59teitel

03-12-08, 02:25 PM

Do the forum sponsors have thier own shipping trucks?? Or are they going to use independant shipping companys just like amazon? If so then how can you say "they know how to ship without wrecking things"??

To be specific regarding my own experience, Invision shipped my 5080 via a very reputable interstate shipper with whom I have had positive past experience in the delivery of large packages such as furniture, etc., some of which was not always packed so well by the seller but still arrived in great shape.

As in every business, some companies do a better job of handling packages than others. Case in point: my last two years in college, I worked the night shift at UPS unloading trailers. My first night during orientation, I asked the manager how to identify what packages contained fragile goods so I could be extra careful with them. His answer was something along the lines of, "Here at UPS, we consider ALL packages to be fragile and demand that our employees handle them with the utmost care." This was in addition to informing us that they expected us to unload the trailers and place the packages on a conveyor belt at the rate of 1800 per hour per two-man team. The average trailer held around 1600 packages, and at the time - around 25 years ago - UPS would accept packages up to 75 lbs.

So after orientation, I then go out with an experienced guy to unload my first trailer. At the time, I was a 6'1' 220 lb. guy who worked out and played football (only Div. 3, but still, it's not like I was just laying around doing bong hits all day long).

The guy I'm paired with is a beast, around 6'4' and 275 lbs. He makes me look like a pencilneck. And the first thing he does after opening the back door of the trailer is to latch onto a large package on the bottom and yank it out, causing a cascade of the first two rows of packages to tumble down violently.

So I say "Jeez! Isn't that gonna break a lot of stuff?!?!" The guy says "Look - we have less than an hour to unload this sucker to keep the bosses off our tails, and then it's on to the next one. If we have to reach up to grab packages off the top, we're gonna get tired twice as fast as we will doing it this way. And if you do it my way, we can bust ass for 20 minutes and bang out the back half of the trailer, which is where the bosses can see us, and then coast through the rest. And if stuff gets broken because it's not packed right, that's not our problem."

So I bought into his system, and that's how I survived two years of slinging parcels at ridiculous rates of speed in the middle of the night on just a few hours of sleep without flunking out.

The moral of the story is that due to my own knowledge of what can happen in the UPS system, whenever possible I ship fragile items via the USPS and NOT UPS. And I think it's safe to assume that the forum sponsors have acquired similar knowledge about whom can be trusted to deliver your display without wrecking it.

Cronin

03-12-08, 03:07 PM

Scary story about UPS :eek:

Cronin

03-12-08, 03:11 PM

chadmak09,

Its very strange that you got two DOAs in a row. The probability is astronomical.

It's the Gods! He offended the 6010 God when he said he "didn't want to get stuck with it" and that he "heard the PRO-150 was the best". Now the Gods have cursed him to never have a functional 6010! :p

chadmak09

03-12-08, 03:12 PM

chadmak09,

Its very strange that you got two DOAs in a row. The probability is astronomical.

Just to be sure that you're doing things right, have you gotten as far as having the power light on in front of the display? Correct inputs, head properly tiltled to one side?

I plugged in the power cord for both 6010's ,then pulled the main power switch on the bottom right of the TV. When I did this the "ON" led in the front lit up. Then the TV gave a loud buzz noise and no video showed on the screen at all.
After pulling the main power switch you can use the on/off button on the right side of the TV. I tried powering on and off using the button on the right and the Tv would power on and off, but everytime I powered on the loud buzz started and no video.
I was told by Pioneer tech support that regardless if I had any inputs hooked up or not, I should see video when the TV is powered on. More than likely it would display the initial setup. But I tried hooking up PS3 using HDMi, and cable using component video. But still no video and loud buzz.
Also, I had no problems like this when I powered on the 5080 i have now. and am using the same plug on the surge protector which works fine.

chadmak09

03-12-08, 03:14 PM

It's the Gods! He offended the 6010 God when he said he "didn't want to get stuck with it" and that he "heard the PRO-150 was the best". Now the Gods have cursed him to never have a functional 6010! :p

I have offended the 6010 gods and have felt thier wrath.

cajieboy

03-12-08, 04:14 PM

I agree.
Lcd black levels and PQ are going to get better. Samsung and Sony are putting alot of money and engineering into LCD. With the exception of OLED, Sony is betting the farm on LCD. I mean look at how much the black levels and PQ of LCD has improved over the past 2-3 years. I think LCD should really start seeing what they can do with LED backlighting.
The samsung 81F reached black levels unheard of for an LCD. It reaches amazing black levels in totally dark scenes But has problems with shadow detail (something that Plasma does great with).
Now, will LCD ever reach the PQ of Plasma? Doubtful, especially if Pioneer continues on the Kuro path and keeps the "pioneer standards" in the Panasonic manufactured panels they will be using in upcoming generation plasmas. I certainly hope Pioneer makes panasonic build thier panels to Pioneers specifications. That would make the Pioneer/Panasonic panel deal a good thing in my book. Production of Pioneer panels would increase and drive down the Price to an affordable level giving LCD a run for its money in the affordability category as well as PQ.

After thinking more about this Pioneer switch to outsource its glass to Panasonic, I started to realize more that this is not such a "bad thing" as some here may imply. The most expensive Plasma Displays ever produced were and are using Panny glass. The Fujitsu Aviamo Series and the Bang & Olufsen (B&O) Plasma Displays all used Panny glass, and not sure but thought possibly Runco used Panny glass as well. Other than the glass, the rest of these particular companies' PDP's mfg'ering processes were all done in-house, and produced the finest displays anyone could buy. Only Pioneer's latest Kuro line topped their PQ in black levels, but that has only been recently.

JimP

03-12-08, 05:19 PM

I plugged in the power cord for both 6010's ,then pulled the main power switch on the bottom right of the TV. When I did this the "ON" led in the front lit up. Then the TV gave a loud buzz noise and no video showed on the screen at all.
After pulling the main power switch you can use the on/off button on the right side of the TV. I tried powering on and off using the button on the right and the Tv would power on and off, but everytime I powered on the loud buzz started and no video.
I was told by Pioneer tech support that regardless if I had any inputs hooked up or not, I should see video when the TV is powered on. More than likely it would display the initial setup. But I tried hooking up PS3 using HDMi, and cable using component video. But still no video and loud buzz.
Also, I had no problems like this when I powered on the 5080 i have now. and am using the same plug on the surge protector which works fine.

How about using the remote to turn it on?

VespaHD

03-12-08, 06:43 PM

DTV TiVo Dealer

03-12-08, 08:39 PM

No incentive yet and none expected as far as I know.

-Robert

chadmak09

03-12-08, 09:13 PM

How about using the remote to turn it on?
Yea tried that.
The Tv would power on and off but everytime it powered on I would get the loud buzz and no video.

I was wondering, Could it be the way I installed the Stand both times??
I put blankets on my table and layed the Panel face down on the blankets and put the stand on that way.
I saw a picture in the manual that showed to do it that way so thats how i did it. I am wondering if it could have damaged the panel.

I wondered about this after the first time it was DOA. So I planned on paying the 2 delivery guys to hold the TV up while i install the stand (which can be done real fast once stand is assembled beforehand) instead of laying it face down. but that was not possible becasue amazon screwed up the delivery type the second time around and only sent one delivery person (a hugely overwieght guy who would get out of breath from just walking 10 feet) so I had to lay the panel face down on my table.
One thing I noticed was that both times the box looked rough.
The first time it had a few scuff marks and one small hole on the bottom.
The second time (yesterday) there were two huge holes toward the top that looked like someone ran a forklift into the box. Its no wonder they were DOA.

chadmak09

03-14-08, 05:23 AM

xb1032

03-14-08, 07:51 AM

Well, guys,
Amazon now has the 6010 in stock again. I could go ahead and get them to send me another 6010 (and pray there won't be a third DOA, which the odds are super-astronomical but I will not rule them out), or I could just say to heck with the 8th gen's and wait for the 9th gen.
What should I do??
I am hurting for a new Kuro and don't know if i can make it thru the duration of waiting on the 9G's.
I guess I have a decision to make. And it aint gonna be eazy thats for sure.
Help!lol.

If all else fails I still have the 5080hd to use until I get a new Kuro.

I'd wait for the 9Gs. Although 3-5 months is a long time to wait!

Oiler

03-14-08, 08:05 AM

As was discussed on another Kuro thread - now closed - Pioneer was to offer an incentive, on Monday 3/10, to their Dealers on remaining 8G models.
Does anyone have any additional info - or should I just wait for a 9G 6020??
I am not sure what the present situation is like in the US but in Canada the stock of many of the Kuro models is pretty much gone. In the big retailers the prices on some of the remaining panels is higher than it was previously.

I just bought a Pro 950 yesterday for our bedroom. I believe was the last one my dealer had access to and the 4280's are pretty much gone. My local dealer has Pioneer as their core product on the TV side. I am not so sure how anxious they would be to sell out all the remaining inventory right now. TV's bring in customers and sell other items. If all you can say is come back in three months you are putting yourself at risk.

cajieboy

03-14-08, 10:25 AM

I'd wait for the 9Gs. Although 3-5 months is a long time to wait!

My vote goes for waiting for the 9G. Chadmak already has a 8G 50"er to tide him over for a few months, and I'm sure the 9G will have some updated tweeks and possible even better blacks/contrast levels than the current 8G crop.

Vashti

03-14-08, 10:58 AM

and I'm sure the 9G will have some updated tweeks and possible even better blacks/contrast levels than the current 8G crop.

I'd say definitely better blacks/contrast levels that the current 8G crop. All the insiders around here are saying the blacks have taken another huge dip. I talked to someone who saw it at CES (at an invitation only showing for a few select dealers) He said while it wasn't the level of change from the 7th gen to the 8th gen, it was a clearly noticeable improvement in black levels (and hence, sense of depth)

Cronin

03-14-08, 12:06 PM

Well, guys,
Amazon now has the 6010 in stock again. I could go ahead and get them to send me another 6010 (and pray there won't be a third DOA, which the odds are super-astronomical but I will not rule them out, or I could just say to heck with the 8th gen's and wait for the 9th gen.
What should I do??

Honor the Gods, keep the 5080. :p Wait for the 9G's and buy then. If nothing else, you will be able to compare the black levels to the 5080 and see if it really is *noticeably* better rather than base your decision on other's opionions. ;) At that point can you decide to either sell the 5080, keep it for another room, or return the new 9G because it wasn't worth the extra money for the upgrade.

P.S. Watching 300, Gladiator, and Troy on HD so much this month is starting to affect me...:eek:

cajieboy

03-14-08, 02:03 PM

I'd say definitely better blacks/contrast levels that the current 8G crop. All the insiders around here are saying the blacks have taken another huge dip. I talked to someone who saw it at CES (at an invitation only showing for a few select dealers) He said while it wasn't the level of change from the 7th gen to the 8th gen, it was a clearly noticeable improvement in black levels (and hence, sense of depth)

Sounds right to me. I'm really keen to learn more on the upcoming super-thin Pioneers that were also shown at CES. Lots of questions. For instance, what sizes are planned? Will Panny make this super-thin glass too or will it be by someone else or maybe still a 100% in-house project? Will the external media receiver include a super duper HQV video processing chip?...etc....etc..

chadmak09

03-14-08, 02:55 PM

Honor the Gods, keep the 5080. :p Wait for the 9G's and buy then. If nothing else, you will be able to compare the black levels to the 5080 and see if it really is *noticeably* better rather than base your decision on other's opionions. ;) At that point can you decide to either sell the 5080, keep it for another room, or return the new 9G because it wasn't worth the extra money for the upgrade.

P.S. Watching 300, Gladiator, and Troy on HD so much this month is starting to affect me...:eek:

Like you said,
I must honor the gods.
And it looks like the gods want me to wait for the 9G's becasue I checked amazon this morning and they are out of 6010's again already.lol.
I am actually pretty happy with this 5080. For the past 2 years I have used the Sony KDLR60XBR1 (Rear Proj.SXRD,1080p), the Samsung LNT5271F, and the Sony KDL52XBR4, and Standard Definition was just flat out unwatchable.
Now I find myself flipping thru standard channels which is awesome since I have so many with comcast. So for the past 2-3 years I have watched HD only (30 channels only) and alot of HD on-demand. Now I have more choices!
And not to mention, the HD channels look top-notch also.

So I am leaning towards the 9g's for now.

xb1032

03-14-08, 10:58 PM

Like you said,
I must honor the gods.
And it looks like the gods want me to wait for the 9G's becasue I checked amazon this morning and they are out of 6010's again already.lol.
I am actually pretty happy with this 5080. For the past 2 years I have used the Sony KDLR60XBR1 (Rear Proj.SXRD,1080p), the Samsung LNT5271F, and the Sony KDL52XBR4, and Standard Definition was just flat out unwatchable.
Now I find myself flipping thru standard channels which is awesome since I have so many with comcast. So for the past 2-3 years I have watched HD only (30 channels only) and alot of HD on-demand. Now I have more choices!
And not to mention, the HD channels look top-notch also.

So I am leaning towards the 9g's for now.

If you've already got a 5080 by all means wait. Otherwise you'll be lingering around these boards and you'll end up wanting the 6020 when it comes out. I'm happy with my 6010 but I am looking forward to the 6020s.

chadmak09

03-15-08, 04:06 AM

If you've already got a 5080 by all means wait. Otherwise you'll be lingering around these boards and you'll end up wanting the 6020 when it comes out. I'm happy with my 6010 but I am looking forward to the 6020s.

How does standard Def. look on the 6010??
Does it look as good as the 5080?
I have been wondering if the 5080 does so good with SD becasue it is a lower resolution and doesn't have to scale so much.
Is that the case, or does the 6010 look about the same with SD?
I wonder what the 6020 will be like? I just can't even imagine deeper blacks than the 8G's but the Specs say the 9G's are deeeeeeeeeep black. And I hear the 10G's are TOTAL black.
I was wondering, When they say the 10g's are total black 0 ire, does that mean that deeper blacks are impossible? That would mean with the 11G's Pioneer would have to start picking other areas to improve on. I've heard others say they wished that Pioneer would start to improve on the "bright" side. Personally I thin the 8G's are bright as heck. So I don't see the complaint of the kuro's being "DIM" as accurate.
Also,
I have heard no "buzz" whatsoever with the 5080.
Also, I have fallen asleep numerous times playing PS3 on my 5080 and have not had the slightest hint or I.R. or Burn-in.
I am having a hard time understanding all of the "problems" some are complaing about with the Kuro's.
But maybe its just me.

Locastor

03-15-08, 10:05 AM

To be specific regarding my own experience, Invision shipped my 5080 via a very reputable interstate shipper with whom I have had positive past experience in the delivery of large packages such as furniture, etc., some of which was not always packed so well by the seller but still arrived in great shape.

As in every business, some companies do a better job of handling packages than others. Case in point: my last two years in college, I worked the night shift at UPS unloading trailers. My first night during orientation, I asked the manager how to identify what packages contained fragile goods so I could be extra careful with them. His answer was something along the lines of, "Here at UPS, we consider ALL packages to be fragile and demand that our employees handle them with the utmost care." This was in addition to informing us that they expected us to unload the trailers and place the packages on a conveyor belt at the rate of 1800 per hour per two-man team. The average trailer held around 1600 packages, and at the time - around 25 years ago - UPS would accept packages up to 75 lbs.

So after orientation, I then go out with an experienced guy to unload my first trailer. At the time, I was a 6'1' 220 lb. guy who worked out and played football (only Div. 3, but still, it's not like I was just laying around doing bong hits all day long).

The guy I'm paired with is a beast, around 6'4' and 275 lbs. He makes me look like a pencilneck. And the first thing he does after opening the back door of the trailer is to latch onto a large package on the bottom and yank it out, causing a cascade of the first two rows of packages to tumble down violently.

So I say "Jeez! Isn't that gonna break a lot of stuff?!?!" The guy says "Look - we have less than an hour to unload this sucker to keep the bosses off our tails, and then it's on to the next one. If we have to reach up to grab packages off the top, we're gonna get tired twice as fast as we will doing it this way. And if you do it my way, we can bust ass for 20 minutes and bang out the back half of the trailer, which is where the bosses can see us, and then coast through the rest. And if stuff gets broken because it's not packed right, that's not our problem."

So I bought into his system, and that's how I survived two years of slinging parcels at ridiculous rates of speed in the middle of the night on just a few hours of sleep without flunking out.

The moral of the story is that due to my own knowledge of what can happen in the UPS system, whenever possible I ship fragile items via the USPS and NOT UPS. And I think it's safe to assume that the forum sponsors have acquired similar knowledge about whom can be trusted to deliver your display without wrecking it.

Terrifying, and it confirms all my suspicions.

optivity

03-15-08, 10:38 AM

After thinking more about this Pioneer switch to outsource its glass to Panasonic, I started to realize more that this is not such a "bad thing" as some here may imply. The most expensive Plasma Displays ever produced were and are using Panny glass. The Fujitsu Aviamo Series and the Bang & Olufsen (B&O) Plasma Displays all used Panny glass, and not sure but thought possibly Runco used Panny glass as well. Other than the glass, the rest of these particular companies' PDP's mfg'ering processes were all done in-house, and produced the finest displays anyone could buy. Only Pioneer's latest Kuro line topped their PQ in black levels, but that has only been recently.Imagine how much better a Runco, B&O or Fujitsu PDP could be if they manufactured their own glass to the same standards as their video processors.

Panasonic follows the business model of making inexpensive flat screens that are targeted for the masses. Just like a Mercedes-Benz versus a Chevy automobile, people get what they pay for and it remains to be seen if there will be a 10G series Pioneer PDP w/glass coming from Mexico that costs less and outperforms an 8/9G Kuro display.

MainLine

03-15-08, 12:25 PM

Imagine how much better a Runco, B&O or Fujitsu PDP could be if they manufactured their own glass to the same standards as their video processors.

Panasonic follows the business model of making inexpensive flat screens that are targeted for the masses. Just like a Mercedes-Benz versus a Chevy automobile, people get what they pay for and it remains to be seen if there will be a 10G series Pioneer PDP w/glass coming from Mexico that costs less and outperforms an 8/9G Kuro display.

I defer to the many experts here at AVS when it comes to AV equipment. However, most of "other" members us have some other area of expertise. I happen to have a little experience as a business executive (30 years) and also would probably be considered a corporate finance "expert" (I teach the stuff). Therefore, I don't don't understand the gnashing of teeth over Pioneer ceasing production of glass panels and its outsourcing or joint-venture arrangement with Mitsubishi/Panasonic.

Obviously companies make decisions all the time about whether to buy/lease equipment, make or buy components, and outsource assembly and various staff functions. They are seeking an optimal balance of lower costs through economies of scale or scope, quality control, reliability, time to deliver, customer satisfaction, etc. To use the automobile analogy, neither Mercedes NOR GM manufacture ALL parts of a car-- neither are manufacturing tires or radios or windows, for example. Obviously (to me) a company needs to know what it does best and when to outsource. That these two auto companies sell their products for different prices to different target markets is not the point. They each employ different strategies to add value in their chosen markets, yet obviously neither company manufactures and assembles their cars at one plant using all home-made components. Daimler-Benz, GM and B&O are not experts in manufacturing glass or can do it efficiently, I'll bet. So, they seek the component elsewhere from those that can provide it better and cheaper.

Geez, Pioneer execs know a little about the TV business. Either they will maintain their current marketing strategy and control the high quality of the panels sourced elsewhere (while still adding other "special secret sauce"), or they will find a new marketing strategy. My first reaction is that this joint venture will lower costs. My assumption is that Pioneer knows it still needs to manage quality and reliability of supply despite the fact that this component will be outsourced. I think shareholders will benefit and we'll see whether consumers also benefit. Otherwise they will simply vote with their wallets. Ain't free markets grand?

dfchang

03-15-08, 02:31 PM

Hi MainLine,

I think the problem here though is that Pioneer WAS the best at manufacturing the panels.

Their panels were by far superior to any others on the market and their panels are ONE of the components that make the Kuro blacks possible.

So we do not have a situation where a company is outsourcing production of components to others that can do it better.

We have a situation where the industry standard is outsourcing to INFERIOR competition purely because of costs.

We are then led to believe that Pioneer will insist on the new panels meeting THEIR specifications even though the whole point of outsourcing in the first place is to save on costs.

How is this to be achieved? Obviously Panasonic can't make THEIR glass panels they will have to make the Pioneer versions according to Pioneer specs. That will drive up costs to some degree right off the bat.

We have to assume that the cost-saving comes in the form of hopefully better efficiency and larger scale that Panasonic has over Pioneer.

In any case, the best case scenario is that Panasonic will manufacture Pioneer glass panels that are every bit as good as those made by Pioneer in the past but somehow they are able to do it cheaper and more efficiently.

But the concern is there and it is QUITE legitimate: Pioneer has now lost some control over the process by outsourcing and in general I have not seen an equivalent situation where this type of business decision led to IMPROVED quality.

2010 and the release of the 10G Kuros will obviously put all of this to the test.

Once again, this development on the outsourcing of glass panels is really not equivalent to cars or Apple computer products etc.

Just my two cents. I really, really hope that the 10Gs are going to be ok because that is when the 9mm Extreme Contrast, zero luminescence panels are supposed to come out to the masses.

optivity

03-15-08, 02:44 PM

I defer to the many experts here at AVS when it comes to AV equipment. However, most of "other" members us have some other area of expertise. I happen to have a little experience as a business executive (30 years) and also would probably be considered a corporate finance "expert" (I teach the stuff). Therefore, I don't don't understand the gnashing of teeth over Pioneer ceasing production of glass panels and its outsourcing or joint-venture arrangement with Mitsubishi/Panasonic.

Obviously companies make decisions all the time about whether to buy/lease equipment, make or buy components, and outsource assembly and various staff functions. They are seeking an optimal balance of lower costs through economies of scale or scope, quality control, reliability, time to deliver, customer satisfaction, etc. To use the automobile analogy, neither Mercedes NOR GM manufacture ALL parts of a car-- neither are manufacturing tires or radios or windows, for example. Obviously (to me) a company needs to know what it does best and when to outsource. That these two auto companies sell their products for different prices to different target markets is not the point. They each employ different strategies to add value in their chosen markets, yet obviously neither company manufactures and assembles their cars at one plant using all home-made components. Daimler-Benz, GM and B&O are not experts in manufacturing glass or can do it efficiently, I'll bet. So, they seek the component elsewhere from those that can provide it better and cheaper.

Geez, Pioneer execs know a little about the TV business. Either they will maintain their current marketing strategy and control the high quality of the panels sourced elsewhere (while still adding other "special secret sauce"), or they will find a new marketing strategy. My first reaction is that this joint venture will lower costs. My assumption is that Pioneer knows it still needs to manage quality and reliability of supply despite the fact that this component will be outsourced. I think shareholders will benefit and we'll see whether consumers also benefit. Otherwise they will simply vote with their wallets. Ain't free markets grand?I have been an IT guy for 30 years. During that time my experience has been whenever something is outsourced to another entity the quality of the end product tends to be diminished not improved.

Perhaps Pioneer has foreseen the handwriting on the wall & someday a Vizio PDP will render a picture to match a Kuro 'Elite' display.

The only thing I know for sure is the PRO-150FD renders the best picture I have ever seen on any FP, the 9G (still being manufactured in-house) series PDPs are reported to be even better and it remains to be seen what kind of plasma TV, if any, Pioneer will produce during 2009.

If I was in the market right now, I would not hesitate to "snap up" an 8G/9G PDP ASAP, because eventually there may only be various flavors of lesser quality LCDs :eek: @ our local Wal*Mart to choose from.

jollyrogr

03-15-08, 03:53 PM

I don't know where people get this notion that quality or technology in the future will be somehow less than today. It's true there may be a lull in technological innovation for a period of time where things more or less move sideways, but overall the technology trend is up.

Would you rather own a television made in 2008 or one made in 1998 or even 1988?
Would you rather own an automobile made in 2008 or one made in 1998 or even 1988?
How about a computer? Cell phone? Hopefully by now you get the point. What about all the technologies that didn't even exist 10 or 20 years ago? I suppose some of you would rather watch VHS than blu-ray? Maybe you prefer analog mono sound to a DTS or DD soundtrack?

PDP may not be around a few years from now, but so what? It will be replaced by something better. Perhaps something that's already in development i.e. OLED, or perhaps something yet to be conceived.

Why does technology continually evolve? Competition. As long as a free market exists there will always be somebody who put forth the effort to do it better than the competition. Remove competition and free markets (communism), and technological innovation will become stagnant. Prices will also increase. The only innovation the USSR had during the period of the cold war was military related - because they were in competition with the US. The rest of the country suffered.

But I digress...it's possible the next best displays will not be made by Pioneer (OMG!). Maybe Sony or some upstart company will have the best technology in a couple years. I don't really care. I'll buy what's best for me at the time that's best for me.

My current display is a sony wega CRT. My next one will be a Pioneer PDP. After that, who knows? But I'm not going to sit around biting my nails worrying that 10 years from now the displays available will be worse than the one's available today.

Trackman

03-15-08, 05:43 PM

Many are assuming that Panny cannot, once armed with Pio's specs and technology inf, maufacture the same quality of panel. Until the 8G Pioneers, Panny's panels were as good or even better, so I don't know where this pessimism comes from. That Pio and Panny think it can be done is good enough for me for now.

scottsol

03-15-08, 06:45 PM

One of the secrets to the Pioneer's performance is the "no gap" color filter. This is applied to the panel as a separate manufacturing step and would not be done by Matsushita.

D-Nice

03-15-08, 07:47 PM

One of the secrets to the Pioneer's performance is the "no gap" color filter. This is applied to the panel as a separate manufacturing step and would not be done by Matsushita.This is still up in the air as to who is going to do it. However, it will not be lost on the 10G Kuros.

xb1032

03-15-08, 11:00 PM

How does standard Def. look on the 6010??
Does it look as good as the 5080?
I have been wondering if the 5080 does so good with SD becasue it is a lower resolution and doesn't have to scale so much.
Is that the case, or does the 6010 look about the same with SD?
I wonder what the 6020 will be like? I just can't even imagine deeper blacks than the 8G's but the Specs say the 9G's are deeeeeeeeeep black. And I hear the 10G's are TOTAL black.
I was wondering, When they say the 10g's are total black 0 ire, does that mean that deeper blacks are impossible? That would mean with the 11G's Pioneer would have to start picking other areas to improve on. I've heard others say they wished that Pioneer would start to improve on the "bright" side. Personally I thin the 8G's are bright as heck. So I don't see the complaint of the kuro's being "DIM" as accurate.
Also,
I have heard no "buzz" whatsoever with the 5080.
Also, I have fallen asleep numerous times playing PS3 on my 5080 and have not had the slightest hint or I.R. or Burn-in.
I am having a hard time understanding all of the "problems" some are complaing about with the Kuro's.
But maybe its just me.

SD looks good to me. It looks better than my Panny and SXRD and other microdisplays I've had. Of course a 60" TV is going to show more flaws than a 50" TV though.

As far as the brightness goes it's going to come down to personal preference. I wish mine was brighter. The 5010 is noticable brighter than the 6010 and the 5080 is slightly brighter than the 5010. So you'll lose some going to the 60" version.

I can definitely see improvements for black levels. Robert stated the 9Gs were blacker than the 8Gs when both were turned off so that must mean the 9Gs have a darker tint which will help black levels in rooms with ambient lighting. But in a darkened room black levels need help. I'm guessing the 9Gs are halfway between the 8Gs and perfection which should be quite a step up :).

I've heard mine buzz a few times but that's really withthe TV turned on and the volume very low. My guess is that people who have smaller rooms and wood flooring probably are more prone to hearing these types of noise.

Locastor

03-16-08, 01:30 AM

Would you rather own an automobile made in 2008 or one made in 1998 or even 1988?

I wish you'd left this one out. The rest of your post is pure gold, though.

xortam

03-16-08, 01:47 AM

Pioneer also apparently had a hard time meeting the demand for Kuros this year which hurt sales. Pioneer and it's customers could surely benefit by Pioneer outsourcing its panels to a manufacturer who could produce panels that meet the high quality as well as production quantity goals. Pioneer likely would see a substantial rise in profits while customers gain access to the quality Pioneer plasmas that they expect at an even lower price. Let's hope for the best.

cajieboy

03-16-08, 02:12 AM

thomopolis

03-16-08, 03:09 AM

JimP

03-16-08, 08:46 AM

One of the secrets to the Pioneer's performance is the "no gap" color filter. This is applied to the panel as a separate manufacturing step and would not be done by Matsushita.

How do you know that Matsushita won't be doing that step, or even know that some other technology improvement would keep it from being necessary?

DTV TiVo Dealer

03-16-08, 09:15 AM

Anyone who is speculation on the future quality of Pioneer panels I only have one thing to say...

"Once you go Kuro you can never go back"

-Robert

optivity

03-16-08, 09:40 AM

Many are assuming that Panny cannot, once armed with Pio's specs and technology inf, maufacture the same quality of panel.It's not that Panasonic can't produce a high end display, however it is a fact they do not produce a high end display. Panasonic builds inexpensive PDPs, which are targeted for the under $5K buyer. To maintain their retail price levels, fewer features, lesser chip-set technology, etc., are used to construct Panasonic PDPs with. Companies like Fujitsu & a back peddling Pioneer cannot compete with Samsung/Panasonic because there are not enough affluent buyers out there who are willing to spend $8K+ for a FP TV.Until the 8G Pioneers, Panny's panels were as good or even better, so I don't know where this pessimism comes from.Panasonic had the edge regarding black levels during the pre-Kuro era, but this distinction no longer exists. The majority opinion in this Forum has always been that Pioneer PDPs are better overall than Panasonic. The main reason more people choose Panasonic versus Pioneer (myself included the first time) is they do not want to spend the extra money.

spincut

03-16-08, 08:43 PM

One of the secrets to the Pioneer's performance is the "no gap" color filter. This is applied to the panel as a separate manufacturing step and would not be done by Matsushita.

is this basiclaly the feature that makes it so you dont see that shadow if you look at the display on extreme angles?

I mean, i hear alot of fancy terms thrown around, but some of them seem to be exagerations.

granted, Pioneer did something to make such a massive gain in black levels, and interetingly this years Panasonics seemed to have come close to catching up without apparently implementing whatever that was.

Trackman

03-16-08, 09:24 PM

It's not that Panasonic can't produce a high end display, however it is a fact they do not produce a high end display. Panasonic builds inexpensive PDPs, which are targeted for the under $5K buyer. To maintain their retail price levels, fewer features, lesser chip-set technology, etc., are used to construct Panasonic PDPs with. Companies like Fujitsu & a back peddling Pioneer cannot compete with Samsung/Panasonic because there are not enough affluent buyers out there who are willing to spend $8K+ for a FP TV.Panasonic had the edge regarding black levels during the pre-Kuro era, but this distinction no longer exists. The majority opinion in this Forum has always been that Pioneer PDPs are better overall than Panasonic. The main reason more people choose Panasonic versus Pioneer (myself included the first time) is they do not want to spend the extra money.

I disagree with your assertion re the majority forum view in the past. Panny had just as much, if not more, support than Pio until the 7th gen Pios, when many (but by no means a clear majority) thought that Pio had gained the lead. Pios at that point had better scaling and processing but were often crtiicised for yielding a "soft" picture and having vibrant but somewhat overdone colors (on the nonElites). The Panny's superior black levels were the differencemaker for a lot of people (inc. some ISF calibrators) prior to the Kuros, at which point Pio pulled away. Feel free to check some of Rich Harkness' old posts in this regard.