I have a Pio 5080. On all over the air broadcasts I have have backround noise. I have DIRECT HR-21, hooked up with a monoprice 1.3 HDMI cable. It's not signal compression, it's not a bad singnal, it's not pixilation, it's not SDE, it's not motion blur, IT IS seeing pixels or slight noise. This is on almost all content. Don't get me wrong, the stuff in the forefront is mostly clear, but there is a sharpness missing (CRT like) for lack of a better way to put it. Is that just the technology and live with it??? DVD's are much more perfect, but I am slightly bothered when I sit down to watch TV, that the picture IS NOT "blow me away crystal clear". I sit 12 feet away on a 50". This is my first large HDTV (I have a 26" LCD in the bedroom), and I'm not blown away by over the air content. I'm not a videophile, I don't know the difference between a gray scale, or gamma, or any of that stuff. For 2K, I want to take my TV out of the box, adjust some brighness and color settings, and BE DONE, AND BE BLOWN AWAY, and not seeing noise of any kind. I am approaching my 30 days (about a week)..and I need to make an informed decission. IS THIS JUST THE TECHNOLOGY??? I don't want to return my set, unless some other one, without spending significantly more money, will get me what I want. I will get a bunch of people saying "it's your eyes"...yes I know, but when I go the the B&M stores to look..I see it on ALL of the sets, unless a BR or HD DVD is playing. Be it plasma, LCD or whatever, IS THERE A 50"-52" TV WHICH WILL BE CRYSTAL CLEAR, NO NOISE AND BLOW ME AWAY? LETS BE HONEST, we see noise on over the air (DIRECT) broadcasts..HD being 10X better than SD.....sorry for the rant......Thanks for honest replies!!!!!

I do think there might some unrealistic expectations at play here, though probably some settings tweaks might help. There are many settings that artificially boost sharpness at the expense of boosting noise a ton.

Also you said "over the air" content. DirecTV isn't over the air in the true sense. You might find that real OTA looks better than D*.

But I think "For 2K, I want to take my TV out of the box, adjust some brighness and color settings, and BE DONE, AND BE BLOWN AWAY, and not seeing noise of any kind." is really, really unrealistic.

Plus, you took it out of the box, tweaked it, and started picking it apart.

I do think there might some unrealistic expectations at play here, though probably some settings tweaks might help. There are many settings that artificially boost sharpness at the expense of boosting noise a ton.

Also you said "over the air" content. DirecTV isn't over the air in the true sense. You might find that real OTA looks better than D*.

But I think "For 2K, I want to take my TV out of the box, adjust some brighness and color settings, and BE DONE, AND BE BLOWN AWAY, and not seeing noise of any kind." is really, really unrealistic.

Plus, you took it out of the box, tweaked it, and started picking it apart.

I'm not trying to "pick it apart". I am trying to see a sharp crystal clear picture with no noise. Is that unrealistic??? That's what I'm trying to find out. Is that the nature of the technology?? Will another pannel, although not having "the blackest blacks", be more of a "CRT" like picture clarity wise
while having the WOW of HD? I am NOT trying to fight or rip my 5080, in fact partly due to my reasearch on here THATS WHAT I BOUGHT!!! I just find myself watching it, and seeing this "noise"...and I want a big screen, I just don't want to be consumed by what imperfections I am seeing. Again, why is the statement I made "For 2K, I want to take my TV out of the box, adjust some brighness and color settings, and BE DONE, AND BE BLOWN AWAY, and not seeing noise of any kind." unrealistic???? Isn't that what a TV is supposed to be???? The majority of people DON'T calibrate or know the technology like people on here. So what you're basically saying is the technology isn't that good yet...am I wrong????

What type of OTA broascasts are you watching? Are they true HD broadcasts? Are they SD or SD upconverts? You need to be a little more specfic. OTA isnt specfic.

What type of OTA broascasts are you watching? Are they true HD broadcasts? Are they SD or SD upconverts? You need to be a little more specfic. OTA isnt specfic.

D'nice thanks for jumping in. I am not technically inclined. I have Direct and viewing both SD and HD broadcasts. I do stretch my SD, so I KNOW thats distorted. I am using an HDMI cable, and watching HD channels, on whatever "normal signal" they put out. The picture is nice, but there is definite "noise or pixels" I see, mostly in the backround of the picture. I tried your settings, the pic seems a little dull/dim...I needed to make it a little brighter, mostly using "standard" user setting. Will the Noise reduction settings help??? I tried them last night, but couldn't tell if the pic was improved...thanks for chiming in.

Again, why is the statement I made "For 2K, I want to take my TV out of the box, adjust some brighness and color settings, and BE DONE, AND BE BLOWN AWAY, and not seeing noise of any kind." unrealistic???? Isn't that what a TV is supposed to be???? The majority of people DON'T calibrate or know the technology like people on here. So what you're basically saying is the technology isn't that good yet...am I wrong????

Yes, you are unrealistic. You cannot hold the TV responsible for a poor signal. OTA compressed HD will pixelate and show noise in some situations where there is a lot of moving objects or very high detail. For example, if you are watching a nature show with waterfalls into a river, you will see pixelation. Additionally, when you are watching most standard definition channels on cable or satellite (which the vast majority of us do) you will also see noise and pixelation. OTA digital standard definition is better, but those signals are still being compressed to some degree and won't be perfect either.

The reality is, all of this noise/pixelation was already there on your much smaller CRT set and on your 26" LCD TVs. You just didn't notice it because those TVs are literally 1/4 the size of your 50" plasma.

It's like taking a small jpeg picture and increasing the size by 4x. You will notice a bunch of pixelation, noise, scaling artifacts.

The only time you will get a "crystal clear blow me away" picture is if you feed it a high quality signal like a Blu-Ray or HD DVD or if you're watching an OTA HD program that is not as heavily compressed.

Yes, you are unrealistic. You cannot hold the TV responsible for a poor signal. OTA compressed HD will pixelate and show noise in some situations where there is a lot of moving objects or very high detail. For example, if you are watching a nature show with waterfalls into a river, you will see pixelation. Additionally, when you are watching most standard definition channels on cable or satellite (which the vast majority of us do) you will also see noise and pixelation. OTA digital standard definition is better, but those signals are still being compressed to some degree and won't be perfect either.

The reality is, all of this noise/pixelation was already there on your much smaller CRT set and on your 26" LCD TVs. You just didn't notice it because those TVs are literally 1/4 the size of your 50" plasma.

It's like taking a small jpeg picture and increasing the size by 4x. You will notice a bunch of pixelation, noise, scaling artifacts.

The only time you will get a "crystal clear blow me away" picture is if you feed it a high quality signal like a Blu-Ray or HD DVD or if you're watching an OTA HD program that is not as heavily compressed.

Glen - My Directv signal is 96 out of 100, you can't get much better. I do understand if you blow something up, you will see more. I guess I did expect a clearer picture consistantly while I am viewing HD channels, maybe unrealistic, but backround noise is prevelant. Is it (noise) on all technolgies on a TV that size?? Thank you.

I'm not trying to "pick it apart". I am trying to see a sharp crystal clear picture with no noise. Is that unrealistic??? That's what I'm trying to find out. Is that the nature of the technology?? Will another pannel, although not having "the blackest blacks", be more of a "CRT" like picture clarity wise
while having the WOW of HD? I am NOT trying to fight or rip my 5080, in fact partly due to my reasearch on here THATS WHAT I BOUGHT!!! I just find myself watching it, and seeing this "noise"...and I want a big screen, I just don't want to be consumed by what imperfections I am seeing. Again, why is the statement I made "For 2K, I want to take my TV out of the box, adjust some brighness and color settings, and BE DONE, AND BE BLOWN AWAY, and not seeing noise of any kind." unrealistic???? Isn't that what a TV is supposed to be???? The majority of people DON'T calibrate or know the technology like people on here. So what you're basically saying is the technology isn't that good yet...am I wrong????

I didn't say that you were -trying- to pick it apart, just that you are. Once you start down that path then it is difficult to be satisfied.

I watch true over the air, not Directv. I have Directv but antenna OTA is higher quality. I see the noise that I assume you are talking about on my Pioneer Elite RPTV, and it's not as sharp as my 5010. I don't find it bothersome, but it is there if I look for it.

You also said that it's not a compression artifact, but I'm not sure that is entirely true. Digital TV isn't perfect and I think when people expect that they are disappointed. You also mentioned that HD disk media looks better. That is also generally true. You just don't get the bitrate with TV.

Glen - My Directv signal is 96 out of 100, you can't get much better. I do understand if you blow something up, you will see more. I guess I did expect a clearer picture consistantly while I am viewing HD channels, maybe unrealistic, but backround noise is prevelant. Is it (noise) on all technolgies on a TV that size?? Thank you.

He said nothing about the signal level. He's saying that satellite TV is compressed all to hell. I still looks great most of the time anyway, but that's one reason disk media looks better.

If the background noise is "prevalent" then you probably need to tweak some settings on the display and make sure the source is configured properly.

It's very difficult to answer these questions since none of us can see it, and each of us will interpret your comments differently. Heck, we could all be talking about the normal noise present on broadcast TV and for all we know you could have your box set to output 480p. (I'm not saying it is, just that stuff like that happens)

He said nothing about the signal level. He's saying that satellite TV is compressed all to hell. I still looks great most of the time anyway, but that's one reason disk media looks better.

If the background noise is "prevalent" then you probably need to tweak some settings on the display and make sure the source is configured properly.

It's very difficult to answer these questions since none of us can see it, and each of us will interpret your comments differently. Heck, we could all be talking about the normal noise present on broadcast TV and for all we know you could have your box set to output 480p. (I'm not saying it is, just that stuff like that happens)

I understand.....I have my Directv HR-21 set to 1080i. Are there specific settings the eliminate bkrnd noise, which seems to grab too much of my attention??? Will other pannels have the same "noise", or are some stronger in that area giving up something else, for instance black levels???

You mentioned "pixelation" with waterfalls. Try turning your sharpness down - it might just be too much edge enhancement that you're mistaking for noise. I watch a lot of nature programming, and noticed the same thing with shots of trees. The leaves appeared to "pixelate" and shimmer. My ISF calibrator arrived at a value of 1% for sharpness, although each manufacturer differs. I have a 55" plasma, and do not have the issues that you have mentioned. In fact, I am routinely amazed at the quality of, say, crowd shots in a football stadium. Not a hint of noise that I can see, and this is with Noise Control set to "Low". Some bad DVD transfers exhibit some of the characteristics you mentioned (I think it's referred to as moire), but it is definitely not the TV. The HD broadcasts I receive via cable can vary in quality, but noise is never the issue. Signal strength has nothing to do with it.

I understand.....I have my Directv HR-21 set to 1080i. Are there specific settings the eliminate bkrnd noise, which seems to grab too much of my attention??? Will other pannels have the same "noise", or are some stronger in that area giving up something else, for instance black levels???

Post the settings that you are using.

Also, if you are outputting 1080i then consider "native" if that is available. Basically you want to pass whatever the signal is, 1080i or 720p. The way you have it configured now a 720p signal will arrive 720p, get scaled up to 1080i by the receiver, then get scaled back down to 768p by the panel. That can also introduce noise. It's generally better to only scale the signal once.

Glen - My Directv signal is 96 out of 100, you can't get much better. I do understand if you blow something up, you will see more. I guess I did expect a clearer picture consistantly while I am viewing HD channels, maybe unrealistic, but backround noise is prevelant. Is it (noise) on all technolgies on a TV that size?? Thank you.

Signal strength does not matter. DirecTV, like digital cable and Echostar all WAY overcompress their signals so that they can cram 500 channels onto their system. It is the overcompression that results in noise and pixelation artifacts, not a weak signal. Your signal could be 100% and it would have the exact same artifacts because the source signal itself is over compressed and pixelated.

It could also be scaling artifacts, but the Pioneers are known to have high quality scaling. Again, if you are seeing a fantastic picture w/ Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, but not as good of a picture w/ OTA signals, it's a problem w/ the source, not the TV.

Another thing to consider. OTA HD signals are broadcast at up to about 18 Megabits/second. At various times, DirecTV compressed their HD channels to a much lower bitrate. OTOH, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are encoded at up to 40 Mbits/second. So, that is another reason why the disc based HD sources appear much less noisy and pixelated.

Rich, is this "noise" most prevalent on solid backgrounds, like walls or close-ups of faces? If so, I had posted a thread a while ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=971715) asking about this, and I don't think I ever got a solid answer. I notice it primarily on plasmas (LCDs don't seem to have this issue) and if I pause the source (DVD, DVR, etc.) I don't see it either. I also see it more on Pioneer plasmas than, for instance, Panasonics, although it definitely exists on both. I can only explain it as a mix between a flicker and picture crawl, it is much easier to point it out than orally explain it.

Since it does not occur when I pause the source, I am less inclined to think it is the TV itself. I wonder if it is actually in the recording itself, like the camera or production-level processing adds dithering to the video. If so, perhaps the plasmas show it more than LCDs because of their "billions" of colors instead of "millions"? Alternatively, is it actually an artifact of the "flickering" caused by the PCM in plasmas, which is why it is not seen in LCDs? If it is caused by the TV itself, is it due to some sort of motion processing? But if so, I would expect not to see it in Pure mode on the Pioneer with a good source.

I have more questions than answers -- but so far I have not gotten any answers that sound like they really related to this problem.

Hopefully this is what you are asking about -- otherwise, sorry to hijack your post.

I have more questions than answers -- but so far I have not gotten any answers that sound like they really related to this problem.

Hopefully this is what you are asking about -- otherwise, sorry to hijack your post.

He said disk media was "much more perfect" so I think it's safe to assume it's source related.

Post the settings that you are using.



I've tried D'Nice's darker settings, but I have been watching lately on the brighter "standard"
Standard
Contrast - 40
Brightness - 0
Color - 0
Tint - R2
Sharp - 0

Pro Adjust
Picture
DRE - mid
Black level - ON
ACL - ON
Enhancer - 2
Gamma - 2

Color temp - MID
CTI - ON

3DNR - MID
Field NR - MID

Rich, is this "noise" most prevalent on solid backgrounds, like walls or close-ups of faces? If so, I had posted a thread a while ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=971715) asking about this, and I don't think I ever got a solid answer. I notice it primarily on plasmas (LCDs don't seem to have this issue) and if I pause the source (DVD, DVR, etc.) I don't see it either. I also see it more on Pioneer plasmas than, for instance, Panasonics, although it definitely exists on both. I can only explain it as a mix between a flicker and picture crawl, it is much easier to point it out than orally explain it.

Since it does not occur when I pause the source, I am less inclined to think it is the TV itself. I wonder if it is actually in the recording itself, like the camera or production-level processing adds dithering to the video. If so, perhaps the plasmas show it more than LCDs because of their "billions" of colors instead of "millions"? Alternatively, is it actually an artifact of the "flickering" caused by the PCM in plasmas, which is why it is not seen in LCDs? If it is caused by the TV itself, is it due to some sort of motion processing? But if so, I would expect not to see it in Pure mode on the Pioneer with a good source.

I have more questions than answers -- but so far I have not gotten any answers that sound like they really related to this problem.

Hopefully this is what you are asking about -- otherwise, sorry to hijack your post.

Since it's hard to describe, I would think it's the same thing. It's kind of a backround noise that keeps grabbing my attention. Do the Pannys not have this as bad??? OR LCD???? What did you end up doing?? I have about a week, deciding what to do. I don't want to get another one, and be happier with what I brought back. Also what a pain I am anticipating trying to box this thing up to bring it back.

Since it's hard to describe, I would think it's the same thing. It's kind of a backround noise that keeps grabbing my attention. Do the Pannys not have this as bad??? OR LCD???? What did you end up doing?? I have about a week, deciding what to do. I don't want to get another one, and be happier with what I brought back. Also what a pain I am anticipating trying to box this thing up to bring it back.

You said disk media was much more perfect so if that's true then it's not the same thing. PWM noise is present on all signals.

I've tried D'Nice's darker settings, but I have been watching lately on the brighter "standard"
Standard
Contrast - 40
Brightness - 0
Color - 0
Tint - R2
Sharp - 0

Pro Adjust
Picture
DRE - mid
Black level - ON
ACL - ON
Enhancer - 2
Gamma - 2

Color temp - MID
CTI - ON

3DNR - MID
Field NR - MID

Wow those settings sear my eyes without trying them. I will attempt to use these later and let you know what I see on my 5010. Not the same display but close.

For starters I know I'd see a lot of noise with DRE on mid (and not low or off) and with sharpness at 0. I run with sharpness -11 or so and DRE either low or off.

These are sort of the polar opposite of my settings.

Wow those settings sear my eyes without trying them. I will attempt to use these later and let you know what I see on my 5010. Not the same display but close.

For starters I know I'd see a lot of noise with DRE on mid (and not low or off) and with sharpness at 0. I run with sharpness -11 or so and DRE either low or off.

These are sort of the polar opposite of my settings.

Like I've stated before I do like the Pannel to look bright, not Optimum bright, but I want some WOW.

Your settings are a disaster. I can see why you have been complaining about noise. If you want a more punchy image, use the D-Nice Superbowl settings - plenty of punch without the noise. Courtesy D-Nice:

Pioneer 4280/5080

Main Menu:
AV Selection: User
Contrast: 38
Brightness: 0
Color: -9
Tint: Red 2
Sharpness: -15


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Standard
Text Optimization: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 3


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Mid

CTI: Off


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Low
Field NR: Off


Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: On

Your settings are a disaster. I can see why you have been complaining about noise. If you want a more punchy image, use the D-Nice Superbowl settings - plenty of punch without the noise. Courtesy D-Nice:

Pioneer 4280/5080

Main Menu:
AV Selection: User
Contrast: 38
Brightness: 0
Color: -9
Tint: Red 2
Sharpness: -15


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Standard
Text Optimization: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 3


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Mid

CTI: Off


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Low
Field NR: Off


Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: On

Thanks I'll try them

Rich-

Aren't you the same poster who started a thread stating that all sports in HD looked awful on your 5080?

I also have a 5080 and also have DTV HR21.

PQ simply varies with the source. That is a reality with any unit you would have.
I use D-Nice reference settings. Great overall settings.

I might suggest that you visit a friend with a HDTV and Direct TV and see what you think compared to your PQ on the PIO.
It would be a good comparison for you anyway.

I am very happy with mine. Good HD source material looks awesome.
Average HD feeds look very good still.
Good SD feeds look decent.
Bad SD feeds look, well bad. :)

I too have recently noticed noise on my 5080HD, oddly I didn't notice it before. I'm still within my 30 day return window and after breaking it in, I've begun to watch analog cable and Blu-ray through a PS3.

I have no doubt a lot of noise is introduced over the cable feed, my provider is absolutely horrid! But, I was wondering what, if anything, would help clean up the noise? Would a power line conditioner (such as Panamax) help anything?? My 5080HD is hanging on the wall so I don't really have a way to run a filter to it. My cable feed is in my utility room so I could possibly run something to it there in the "home run" box.

It's a shame that HDTV's have such a presence in the retail market but the programming is way far behind and we have yet another year to wait for the switch to digital...not that that promises much in the way of anything better.

Rich-

Aren't you the same poster who started a thread stating that all sports in HD looked awful on your 5080?

I also have a 5080 and also have DTV HR21.

PQ simply varies with the source. That is a reality with any unit you would have.
I use D-Nice reference settings. Great overall settings.

I might suggest that you visit a friend with a HDTV and Direct TV and see what you think compared to your PQ on the PIO.
It would be a good comparison for you anyway.

I am very happy with mine. Good HD source material looks awesome.
Average HD feeds look very good still.
Good SD feeds look decent.
Bad SD feeds look, well bad. :)

The thread you are reffering to was my first time watching sports on the Pio...basketball...I saw todat it still doesn't look good at all...I stick by that. The Superbowl looked great...I'm still in my 30 day period trying to decide, there are lots of things I am unhappy with. The picture to me, at times being AWESOME but often to me, AND OTHERS ON HERE...has a fuzziness to it, slight noise...hard to describe... I know I'll get bashed but it has more "noise" (lack of a better term) than I expected. Let the bashing begin....I'm just being honest.

I too have recently noticed noise on my 5080HD, oddly I didn't notice it before. I'm still within my 30 day return window and after breaking it in, I've begun to watch analog cable and Blu-ray through a PS3.

I have no doubt a lot of noise is introduced over the cable feed, my provider is absolutely horrid! But, I was wondering what, if anything, would help clean up the noise? Would a power line conditioner (such as Panamax) help anything?? My 5080HD is hanging on the wall so I don't really have a way to run a filter to it. My cable feed is in my utility room so I could possibly run something to it there in the "home run" box.

It's a shame that HDTV's have such a presence in the retail market but the programming is way far behind and we have yet another year to wait for the switch to digital...not that that promises much in the way of anything better.

I am not the only one..also another guy above in the thread......everyone can't be seeing razor sharp pictures, from Directv. Don't get me wrong I do see beautiful pictures sometimes, but OFTEN I'm annoyed. Before everyone screams "take it back and shut up"....I don't know what to replace it with. I have a Bravi LCD in my bedroom....it's HALF the size so I know I can't the artifacts, I'm not stupid. Will a Panny, Samsung, OR EVEN AN LCD seem smoother/sharper??

...What, if anything, do I lose if I have 3DNR and Field NR both set to High?

I noticed playing around with these settings that that seemed to clear up a lot of the "noise" on my 5080HD, especially the analog channels. I know this is obvious as that is what these settings are supposed to do.

From my initial observation, it seems to be working for me. If I've lost anything at all, it might be some of the sharpness in the picture. With both 3DNR and Field NR set too high, I want to say the picture appears "just" out of focus, like it's almost in but not quite. However, the trade-off of losing the picture noise is acceptable. I was surprised how much it cleaned up the analog feed. The HD channels look just as good, perhaps slightly better, than they did.

I'm just curious as to why most of the "reference" and other settings posted here have 3DNR and Field NR set to off or low for the most part. I would assume that is because most users have little or no noticeable picture noise.

I did watch some Blu-ray's through my PS3 via HDMI and noticed some noise as well although not as prevalent in the SD analog above.

At some point, I expect to find a happy medium as far as settings for cable and Blu-ray viewing. I don't fault the TV whatsoever. I just think that the better the TV is at displaying whatever content it is served, then garbage in garbage out applies. I was surprised that there appearred to be noise coming from a 1080p Blu-ray (Casino Royale).

Like I've stated before I do like the Pannel to look bright, not Optimum bright, but I want some WOW.

It's not just that tough, if I had to guess I'd say you are trying to clean up inferior sources to the point of having a lot of noise.

Try a less compressed source and use native from you box (vs. 1080i).

The thread you are reffering to was my first time watching sports on the Pio...basketball...I saw todat it still doesn't look good at all...I stick by that. The Superbowl looked great...I'm still in my 30 day period trying to decide, there are lots of things I am unhappy with. The picture to me, at times being AWESOME but often to me, AND OTHERS ON HERE...has a fuzziness to it, slight noise...hard to describe... I know I'll get bashed but it has more "noise" (lack of a better term) than I expected. Let the bashing begin....I'm just being honest.

Rich-

Dunno what to tell you.
I use D-Nice's reference settings and have my DTV HR21 receiver set to 1080i.

I watch a ton of basketball-maybe parts or all of ten games a week.
On some obvious poorly done feeds the PQ is noisy (when ESPN does the sidebar thing which many think is some upscaled thing).
Otherwise the picture is pristine on most ESPN and BTN and other HD broadcasts. The BTN is especially good. I have been in several of those arenas and the picture is just like it is when you are there (lighting/shadows/court color/coloring etc).

Other HD channels vary from good to great. Some have some artifacts or are not that sharp-but it is clearly the source (HD Seinfield reruns for example).

I think you are going to see the same issues more or less on any larger HDTV.

As for SD feeds-they vary from poor to OK, to pretty good-but never great and are better on a CRT.

Good luck. Maybe larger HD TV is not for you. There is not going to be 1080p broadcasts anytime soon in our lifetime so it is what it is.

Like I've stated before I do like the Pannel to look bright, not Optimum bright, but I want some WOW.

Maybe check out the higher end Samsung LCD series (71's on up).
Lots of pop. I prefer the plasma picture presentation, but maybe you are an LCD guy.

Rich,

If you are reading this post while the Grammy's are still on, tune in (even if does not interest you) and tell us what your picture looks like with the D-Nice reference or Superbowl settings. My picture with either setting (especially the Superbowl settings) looks punchy, detailed, and NOISE FREE. BTW, this is a great program to see how good your Kuro is with blacks as there is black all over the place in this program. Simply put, my picture looks stunning!

Since it's hard to describe, I would think it's the same thing. It's kind of a backround noise that keeps grabbing my attention. Do the Pannys not have this as bad??? OR LCD???? What did you end up doing?? I have about a week, deciding what to do. I don't want to get another one, and be happier with what I brought back. Also what a pain I am anticipating trying to box this thing up to bring it back.

Rich -- Agreed with brentsg; if you are only seeing it with a certain source, then no it is not what I'm talking about. If otherwise, and it is visible mostly on mid-brightness to high-brightness "solid-color" scenes, then check out a new post I just found today (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991844). This touches exactly what I was talking about, and there's nothing that can be done about it. All plasmas have it, but perhaps Pios the worst. Pannys are better, and LCD's don't have it at all (but of course both have their own shortcomings). Read my post as well as KuroFan's post, and then decide for yourself if you can deal with it or not.

Rich -- Agreed with brentsg; if you are only seeing it with a certain source, then no it is not what I'm talking about. If otherwise, and it is visible mostly on mid-brightness to high-brightness "solid-color" scenes, then check out a new post I just found today (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991844). This touches exactly what I was talking about, and there's nothing that can be done about it. All plasmas have it, but perhaps Pios the worst. Pannys are better, and LCD's don't have it at all (but of course both have their own shortcomings). Read my post as well as KuroFan's post, and then decide for yourself if you can deal with it or not.While I have no direct evidence I can speculate that PWM noise is not what you are seeing. I say this because most current Plasma displays use continuous subfield driving to avoid inducing false contours. Problem is that this requires large amount of error diffusion and dithering. The visible noise should be less noticeable on higher resolution screens due to the dither pattern being half the size. And if the dither pixels are spread across time (rotated dither) you may notice shimmering. Just speculation though :)

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/xrox/magyarazat-en.gif

Rich,

If you are reading this post while the Grammy's are still on, tune in (even if does not interest you) and tell us what your picture looks like with the D-Nice reference or Superbowl settings. My picture with either setting (especially the Superbowl settings) looks punchy, detailed, and NOISE FREE. BTW, this is a great program to see how good your Kuro is with blacks as there is black all over the place in this program. Simply put, my picture looks stunning!

Funny you should say this, My first reaction to the Grammy's was WOW, the best I've seen, but the more I watched i did get this "noise" or "PWM"..many people are experiencing. See the below thread : "5080" noise. there is a guy who owned 3 Kuros, loves them, but CLEARLY sees this as well.....what to do.... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991844

Rich -- Agreed with brentsg; if you are only seeing it with a certain source, then no it is not what I'm talking about. If otherwise, and it is visible mostly on mid-brightness to high-brightness "solid-color" scenes, then check out a new post I just found today (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991844). This touches exactly what I was talking about, and there's nothing that can be done about it. All plasmas have it, but perhaps Pios the worst. Pannys are better, and LCD's don't have it at all (but of course both have their own shortcomings). Read my post as well as KuroFan's post, and then decide for yourself if you can deal with it or not.

I tried DVD again....I am seeing the same thing. I read the other thread...will LCD make us happier?? Tough to say.

PWM noise is hard to see except in very dim scenes. Are you sure this is what you're seeing?

If it isn't, you're going to see this "noise" on all big TVs, whether they are LCD or plasma.

PWM noise is hard to see except in very dim scenes. Are you sure this is what you're seeing?

If it isn't, you're going to see this "noise" on all big TVs, whether they are LCD or plasma.

Chris, it sounds like we all agree on what the noise looks like, and that it is only seen on plasmas, not LCDs -- and usually in brighter scenes, especially with solid colors like walls, etc. In fact, I do not see this in darker shades at all (possibly because my eyes are not sensitive enough).

If that does not suggest PWM noise, you may be correct, and I'd be interested to know if you can suggest another culprit -- but your argument that either we are only seeing this in dim scenes or that it is visible on all types of displays is untrue.

Funny you should say this, My first reaction to the Grammy's was WOW, the best I've seen, but the more I watched i did get this "noise" or "PWM"..many people are experiencing. See the below thread : "5080" noise. there is a guy who owned 3 Kuros, loves them, but CLEARLY sees this as well.....what to do.... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991844

Where exactly in the picture were you seeing the noise? Ex: faces, tuxedos, stage lighting, etc. My feed was from cable and I must say that it was one of the best feeds I have seen - very clear, sharp, detailed blacks, and ZERO noise. Also, what settings were you using when you were watching? I'm starting to think that you may have a feed quality (not strength) issue here...

Where exactly in the picture were you seeing the noise? Ex: faces, tuxedos, stage lighting, etc. My feed was from cable and I must say that it was one of the best feeds I have seen - very clear, sharp, detailed blacks, and ZERO noise. Also, what settings were you using when you were watching? I'm starting to think that you may have a feed quality (not strength) issue here...

It's not the source, I'm starting to think my eyes are sensitive to this phospher lag...I'm drawn to it. The more I drive myself nuts, the more I think I might learn to live with it. Paid under 2K for my 5080, I prob can't do better anywhere else. I keep going back and forth with LCD, but that would prob drive me nuts as well. :confused:

Chris, it sounds like we all agree on what the noise looks like, and that it is only seen on plasmas, not LCDs -- and usually in brighter scenes, especially with solid colors like walls, etc. In fact, I do not see this in darker shades at all (possibly because my eyes are not sensitive enough).

If that does not suggest PWM noise, you may be correct, and I'd be interested to know if you can suggest another culprit -- but your argument that either we are only seeing this in dim scenes or that it is visible on all types of displays is untrue.

PWM noise is visible at very low picture levels (DLP TVs have a very similar effect, if you're familiar with those). It almost looks like very light static. Unless you're sitting really close to the screen, it really shouldn't be visible at all. I guess if you're right up on the screen (2 feet away, perhaps) it could be visible even in brighter areas.

If you're seeing it elsewhere, I think it's probably in the source material. It's also possible that you're seeing "posterization" (also called color banding, false contouring, etc). This effect exists to a varying extend in LCDs and plasmas but is basically nonexistant in CRTs.

I'm not trying to "pick it apart". I am trying to see a sharp crystal clear picture with no noise. Is that unrealistic??? That's what I'm trying to find out. Is that the nature of the technology?? Will another pannel, although not having "the blackest blacks", be more of a "CRT" like picture clarity wise
while having the WOW of HD? I am NOT trying to fight or rip my 5080, in fact partly due to my reasearch on here THATS WHAT I BOUGHT!!! I just find myself watching it, and seeing this "noise"...and I want a big screen, I just don't want to be consumed by what imperfections I am seeing. Again, why is the statement I made "For 2K, I want to take my TV out of the box, adjust some brighness and color settings, and BE DONE, AND BE BLOWN AWAY, and not seeing noise of any kind." unrealistic???? Isn't that what a TV is supposed to be???? The majority of people DON'T calibrate or know the technology like people on here. So what you're basically saying is the technology isn't that good yet...am I wrong????

You will surely see this same garbage on a smaller set, but much less so. It is that a larger set simply shows it much more than the smaller set due to obvious physics=one set is showing the issues just as it is showing a person's face and text much larger than a smaller set is. I have seen it in larger CRTs vs. smaller CRTs and see it in larger LCD/Plasma vs. smaller LCD/Plasma.

It's not the source, I'm starting to think my eyes are sensitive to this phospher lag...I'm drawn to it. The more I drive myself nuts, the more I think I might learn to live with it. Paid under 2K for my 5080, I prob can't do better anywhere else. I keep going back and forth with LCD, but that would prob drive me nuts as well. :confused:

Phosphor lag isn't related to "noise" in the picture, it's kind of similar to DLP rainbows. Usually you see yellow or green streaks in motion. Some people see it more than others. I can see it, but it's not that big of a deal. Not as bad as rainbows or LCD motion blur. It would be nice to have motion as perfect as you get with CRT, but it's okay.

PWM noise is visible at very low picture levels (DLP TVs have a very similar effect, if you're familiar with those). It almost looks like very light static. Unless you're sitting really close to the screen, it really shouldn't be visible at all. I guess if you're right up on the screen (2 feet away, perhaps) it could be visible even in brighter areas.

If you're seeing it elsewhere, I think it's probably in the source material. It's also possible that you're seeing "posterization" (also called color banding, false contouring, etc). This effect exists to a varying extend in LCDs and plasmas but is basically nonexistant in CRTs.


Exactly...

My vote is a stand that wheels out a 36" CRT for some viewing and the Plasma always in its respected space for other viewing;):):)

It's not the source, I'm starting to think my eyes are sensitive to this phospher lag...I'm drawn to it. The more I drive myself nuts, the more I think I might learn to live with it. Paid under 2K for my 5080, I prob can't do better anywhere else. I keep going back and forth with LCD, but that would prob drive me nuts as well. :confused:

Phosphor lag looks like color separation, not noise.