I understand that there is no limit to how much one can spend on a high-end HT system, however I'd like to get a ballpark for what I would need to spend to have a projection system that would provide an image wall-size. I need to start preparing my better half as we contemplate moving in the next year or so. Am I looking at 20K for a decent system, or 2 or 3 times that? I tend to buy the best, but I don't have an unlimited budget either (paradoxical position I know). Also, how much would I save doing it on my own vs. going with a turnkey installed solution from a local retailer? Thanks, as I feel like the letterboxed image on my 43" is just so limiting and lacking. I don't feel like I'm really 'into' the picture, if you know what I mean.

How big is the wall and how big is your budget?

Take your best guess and multiply by 3 and you are in the ballpark. Sad but true

As you've figured, you've got a lot of variables to consider. a DIY approach can be 5-10% of what a pro installation company can charge. You'll save even more if you look at used equipment.
The downside is of course that you personally need to deal with every glitch, from construction to automation implementation. A pro installer/designer will/should take care of any and all glitches.

Since I deal exclusively in used CRT projectors, virtually all of my customers are of the DIY variety. I've seen some great installs, and I've seen some 'gee, I'd do that a lot different' ones.

If you have the available time and resources, there's a lot more satisfaction (IMHO) in a $10K DIY system over throwing $100K at some installation company that does all the work for you.

budget can only be approximated once expectations are set.

Spend big on screen, spend less on proj initially. spend good on audio processing and hold back a bit on speakers.

Determine if you are happy with great, or revel in the pursuit of awesome.

I do not yet have a theatre in my home but have dealt in this stuff for 20 years, so i will comfortably say that i know more about what sounds and looks good than most. Last weekend i borrowed a run of the mill DaLite white screen 10' wide. i hooked up a 1 chip dlp proj that i borrowed form work (i handle them all, so i borrowed from myself) it was a 2800 lumen mitsubishi XGA proj. not "HD" by any means.

THen i hooked it up component to my cable (AT&T UVERSE) receiver for an HD superbowl.

Point i am making is that this tremendously low end system was friggin awesome.

i could have gone over the many areas it was lacking, but me and all the people who were here were just grinning and giggling. maybe the brightness made up for the lack of resolution, maybe i was blinded by the game (although Bikini destinations the night before was.... YOWSA!)

When i setup my theatre i am going to ensure i get the right screen, and spend what i need on that. Then the audio processor. but all the other stuff, i am going to go cheap on, since when i first get the theatre in i will be ecstatic with whatever i have. then when the natural incline/need to upgrade hits me (As it does EVERYBODY) i will start finessing things out. it will give me the time to really spread the cost out, and get the benefit of increasing improvements.

So the point i am making is if you are building a dedicated theatre, 20K will go bye bye without even blinking. spend it on the screen, the wiring, the seating, some acoustic panels to deaden the room/silence it, and then assume that no matter what you do, you will be upgrading the proj/speakers over time.

But these are just my thoughts.

if you look at 'Isabel' down below, you can see what DIY can cost if you're talking build out - DIY saves you on build out as that is mostly labor, but not much at all on gear/installation. The gear is always at least a bit expensive. Now, a regular couch can cost 1/4 to 1/2 of what theater chairs cost as they just assume you have cash if you want those. So, figure $5K for furniture, $5k-$10k for screen/PJ, $5k-$10k for sound. That's not including any build out or labor costs. We do $5000 turnkey systems and we do $20-$30k turnkey systems (no build out). Others won't do a turnkey system if it's less than $50K or even $100K. Depends on who does it. There's also a lot of pros and a lot of complete screw ups in the industry, so hold onto your wallet tight and don't give anyone too much rope unless they're really well respected. We have to do a do-over for two customers in the coming weeks that shouldn't have to be redone at all for what they spent.

I understand that there is no limit to how much one can spend on a high-end HT system, however I'd like to get a ballpark for what I would need to spend to have a projection system that would provide an image wall-size. I need to start preparing my better half as we contemplate moving in the next year or so. Am I looking at 20K for a decent system, or 2 or 3 times that?

Figure out your budget first, then start planning the room. Unless you have no limit...

Have a good acoustical designer design the room first no matter what (I recommend Rives Audio; my room is a level 2 consultation - if I knew then what I know now, I would have done a level 3 instead). After that, if you have no budget, go wild!

Better to do it right the first time than to have to redo things or live with regrets.

I tend to buy the best, but I don't have an unlimited budget either (paradoxical position I know). Also, how much would I save doing it on my own vs. going with a turnkey installed solution from a local retailer?

DIY isn't necessarily cheaper if you have to hire a carpenter, electrician, HVAC people, etc. Sometimes it is easier to just have someone else do it, because what you save in money might be lost through your own time being used up to build the room yourself. For some people, their personal time makes more money than they would be spending on an independent contractor.

I ended up spending more than I originally planned, but I did a lot more work than I originally planned. Another consideration is, the cost of hiring people to do some or all of the work will rise directly with the cost of living in your area. In some areas that can get pretty steep unless you plan on doing everything yourself with a friend helping.

QueueCumber: I'm in the process of completing my second level 2 Rives system (the drywall is now up). The last room they did for me was amazing and ruler flat from 175Hz up. The bass issues in that room were a function of the existing room size (I had an existing listening room/theater that they had me modify. I did not choose to do a level 3 this time because I was still not starting with a blank piece of paper. By that I mean, while the basement was unfinished, I still had some constraints to work with (primarily the ceiling height). A friend has them do a level 3 but he was literally staring from scratch - he was building a brand new home (his room is flat from 14Hz all the way up)

What do you think a level 3 would have gotten you that the level 2 did not? Just curious? (I guess this is a tad off topic!)

Sounds like what I really should do is pay for one of yours' plane tickets and give you a retainer as my consultant. On this forum I saw someone's HT that simply used a light gray painted wall as a screen. What is being lost in this setup over a dedicated screen? Also, given that there isn't much available in 1440p sources, how good does a 720p source look on a 100" screen? Like if I'm playing COD4 or an upscaled DVD? 480i? Do people with these large screens even watch SD sources? I can't do without my Sci-Fi channel and that's SD. I would think even 1080p might show the individual pixels at this size. What is level 2/3? Maybe I need to buy HT for Dummies, if there is even a book. Obviously, I know little about what I'm talking about so help me out a bit, thanks.

If you're 1.5x screen width away, you can sometimes see the pixels on a 720 PJ, but you're not likely to see any on a 1080p. If you're 10' from the wall, you should have a 6'6" wide screen or 92" diagonal. 8' wide or 110" diagonal at 12'. +/-

Huh, I had mentioned Bob Harley's book - Home Theater for Everyone - in my post, but I must have accidentally erased it.

What do you think a level 3 would have gotten you that the level 2 did not? Just curious? (I guess this is a tad off topic!)

The 175Hz and down FR flatter. ;)

I have the same exact scenario you did. I had a preexisting space and the room dimensions have bass humps. Knowing how much it cost to do everything, despite trying to save money, the extra for the level 3 would have been a drop in the bucket. Not everyone would redo as much as I did though. I rebuilt the entire inside of the room anyway.

Knowing that Rives Audio would be coming out to check specifics of the build and monitor it. That they would talk to the different people involved in the build to plan out the HVAC, electrical and other build details, would have been worth it IMO.

The room shape itself needed to be altered to get rid of my issues in the 40-90Hz range. That isn't included in the level 2. If I understood that then like I do now, I wouldn't even have second thoughts about doing the level 3. Don't get me wrong, the room sounds incredible (worlds better than it sounded before the work), it just could have been better with a level 3 consultation, and I am a perfectionist. :o

I'm currently using room correction to solve the problem and bass management.

Sounds like what I really should do is pay for one of yours' plane tickets and give you a retainer as my consultant. On this forum I saw someone's HT that simply used a light gray painted wall as a screen. What is being lost in this setup over a dedicated screen? Also, given that there isn't much available in 1440p sources, how good does a 720p source look on a 100" screen? Like if I'm playing COD4 or an upscaled DVD? 480i? Do people with these large screens even watch SD sources? I can't do without my Sci-Fi channel and that's SD. I would think even 1080p might show the individual pixels at this size. What is level 2/3? Maybe I need to buy HT for Dummies, if there is even a book. Obviously, I know little about what I'm talking about so help me out a bit, thanks.

IMO, definitely do a 1080p projector. If you do anything less, you won't be able to take full advantage of 1080p movies. I watch SD movies all the time, they don't look as good, but they don't look absolutely terrible (except DVD Disney cartoons so far which have outlines around the moving images (ringing???), but my kids didn't notice it at all). The 1080p projector will upscale as well.

SD channels (480) will eventually be in HD anyway, at some point. I don't watch low quality SD sources anymore. I have a lot of HD channels to choose from, so I watch those. The SD channels are still watch-able though, you will just notice a difference in quality between 1080i, 720p and 480i/p. It is definitely worth it to have a large screen. Use the bedroom to watch your SD fare if it bothers you a lot, that is what I do, right before going to bed.

You don't have to be without your SciFi channel programme, it just won't look as good as your HD content. There are so many 1080i/p choices out there to watch nowadays that I think it would be a bad idea to base your HT criteria on one station. Especially since you can still watch that station, just not in HD (yet...).

It's too bad I didn't see this thread earlier, I just sold my old 1080p PJ for a terrific price the same day I put it up for sale! :eek: I highly recommend the AVS store when you plan on looking for gear, they are great and easy to work with, plus honest.

There is excellent info on these AVS forums re all manner of things HT. The Harley book is a good resource, of course, and going back several years to read the articles about the construction of the WideScreen Review Magazine reference theater would be helpful too.

But you asked about budget without giving much info about your starting point. And many of the answers above reflect very different assumptions re that starting point. It matters a great deal what you are starting with and what you want to finish with.

Are you looking to create a theater in an existiing room and is that room going to be a dedicated theater room or multi-use? If an existing room, it is mostly equipment and retro wiring expenses for which you will be budgeting and, if you want a dedicated theater with a theater "look" then there are accessories and materials (including some build out expense) for that.

If you are starting with raw space where you have no "core" build out expenses that is a different budget. But you get to skip the time and expense of retro fitting. The Rives Audio solution (or other vendors) can be very helpful here but even that has several levels of envolvement. As others have responded above, you are talking about room design/layout/specs (difficult) and room construction (rough carpentry, electrical, low voltage wiring and, maybe, HVAC) and finish work. The latter two are not so difficult when the room design is right because there are a lot more suppliers.

And then there is what I would call "no space" or "blank piece of paper" construction where working with architects and designers may be critical for success. The additional design and construction costs are probably less when building a new home unless you are building a "stand alone" theater on your property.

So, the soundest advice is to establish a budget (recommended above) and then get advice or be very dillegent in your research about maximizing the outcome.

The extent to which DIY is a good alternative depends on: how much you value your own time (because then you think it is free :D), have tools (otherwise you are going to end up buying a tool chest full of stuff), have skills in one or more among carpentry and dry wall, electrical, hvac, or design (which was the skill I started with), and have the time to be your own general contractor.

In any case, it makes sense to establish relationships with specialists in HT retailing, installation and calibration even if you don't go for a turn key solution because they can advise you, provide products difficult to get when you are not "in the trade" and, most importantly, be able to bail you out when you get stuck.

Oh, and welcome to our addiction!

The Rives Audio solution (or other vendors) can be very helpful here but even that has several levels of envolvement.

Not necessarily. The Rives Audio Level 1 (http://www.rivesaudio.com/services/servframe1.html) design is basically just adding treatments to an already finished room plus designing the room layout for speakers and screen, etc. At least that is my understanding of it...

There are some room treatment manufacturer's that do simple consultations for free, recommending which of their products to use. I wasn't extremely impressed by those though...

I guess my budget would be $20K as a starting point, with the home being built so no retrofitting or snaking wires behind walls necessary. But the real priority is being satisfied with the end result being a 100" picture. Can I even do that for $20K assuming that I have average ears and eyesight (in other areas I'm a perfectionist, but I don't know if I could tell the difference between a $10K sound system and a $50K sound system; just a guess really)? Or should I be preparing my better half with periodic hints of a budget north of this? Also, I still don't understand what is being lost by projecting onto a painted light gray wall vs. a screen. The guy on this forum that had pictures of his wall as the screen seemed happy with his setup. Thanks.

It's just like finding a bed for Goldilocks. If a guy is specializing in $50K and up theaters with Runco and $20K speakers, chances are they won't do a $20K system as well as someone who specializes in $15K-$30K systems. If a person says "well, we just sell plasmas and lcds", then that's not going to work either. So, you want to make sure they have 1080p projectors in the $4K-$8K range as a start. And if they act like $20K isn't a normal, healthy budget, run.

You don't want a painted wall, especially when a fixed screen can cost $500-$1000. Painted walls are for trying to pull off a $2K HT system, not a $20k system. Optically just not the same.

Also, if you want inwalls, make sure they're something like Triad or Revel or NHT or PSB/Paradigm or stuff like that. If their main inwall line is Sonance, Speakercraft, Russound, Niles, etc, they're just phoning it in. And make sure, if you can't swing separates, that they at least have something like Cambridge, Arcam, NAD, Rotel. You can tell a lot about a company by the brands they carry.

Also, I still don't understand what is being lost by projecting onto a painted light gray wall vs. a screen. The guy on this forum that had pictures of his wall as the screen seemed happy with his setup. Thanks.

The thing you have to worry about is how flat you can get the paint. Painted walls tend to be porous looking. I used my projector on a wall while my HT was being built and it didn't look bad or anything, but it looks better on a screen...

Can I even do that for $20K assuming that I have average ears and eyesight (in other areas I'm a perfectionist, but I don't know if I could tell the difference between a $10K sound system and a $50K sound system; just a guess really)?

If sound isn't a priority for you, no need to spend a lot on it... I spent a lot on sound in my room because I was building it for two-channel listening first, surround second, and HT as an afterthough (at least initially...). You do want to make sure they are decent quality though and can fill your room appropriately.

Or should I be preparing my better half with periodic hints of a budget north of this?

I'm torn on how to answer this one. Like your questions about HT, it depends on your "better half." If you spend under on a large estimate, will your "better half" feel obligated to spend the extra on him/her self. If not, then estimate way over budget. If so, then estimate under. ;) :D

I think the important thing is to raise your expectations first, then raise the price only if they can't be met. it seems like you're expecting a $2500-$5000 theater for $20K.

Thanks. Maybe I'd be happy with a $5K HT, but a high-end LCD 52" TV will cost me that and I have to think that if you could get a whole HT for the price of one TV, then I have to be missing something in my HT setup.

i'd guess so. Here's a cheapskate $5K theater that is really decent -

Infocus IN76 - $2000
110" fixed Screen - $500
Denon receiver - $1000
BD player - $500
PSB Alpha x 6 - $750
PSB 5i sub - $600
MX500 remote - $100

Get a reasonable discount and you have enough for some needed accessories.

Now, imagine what you can have for 4x that amount and budget maybe $2000 for basic install work. At that point, you're getting excellent stuff. Can you get better for $30K? Sure, if you're careful. Just be careful.

Keep in mind that the IN76 even with 720p will blow away "high-end" LCD panel, especially in motion and contrast. And that's absolute entry level these days. And an MX500 will do all that automation that *most* people need. We're replacing a Crestron remote that a guy hates with an MX810 at <10% of the price. HT is getting cool *and* cheap. Only comuter technology falls as fast.

do not forget that the customer does not dislike the crestron, he hates the programming/UI he has been given. and in that case, the cost of a new universal remote is much less than the reprogramming to agood UI that should have been done in the first place.

a good theatre is about a combination of your budget and your expectations. Like i said, get a few good anchor pieces, then grow over time. but definitely try to find a few folks in your area with theatres, go see, get ideas. only then can you set expecations and match them to a budget.

Now here's one for $20k ish.

PSB Synchrony One front/center - $6500
PSB Synchrony Two side/rears - $3000
PSB sub -$1500
NAD T775 w/Audyssey - $2500
BD player - $500
mx810 remote - $500

That's $14K MSRP

JVC RS1 or InFocus IN82- ~$5K
Fixed screen - $500

That's $19.5K. Now you have $500 for wire.

Then pay the installation charges, which shouldn't be more than about $2k-$2500 in a new house. Wham, you're done.

do not forget that the customer does not dislike the crestron, he hates the programming/UI he has been given. and in that case, the cost of a new universal remote is much less than the reprogramming to agood UI that should have been done in the first place.

This is true. The guy took the money and ran and left him kinda down. All soon fixed.

Sounds like what I really should do is pay for one of yours' plane tickets and give you a retainer as my consultant. On this forum I saw someone's HT that simply used a light gray painted wall as a screen. What is being lost in this setup over a dedicated screen? Also, given that there isn't much available in 1440p sources, how good does a 720p source look on a 100" screen? Like if I'm playing COD4 or an upscaled DVD? 480i? Do people with these large screens even watch SD sources? I can't do without my Sci-Fi channel and that's SD. I would think even 1080p might show the individual pixels at this size. What is level 2/3? Maybe I need to buy HT for Dummies, if there is even a book. Obviously, I know little about what I'm talking about so help me out a bit, thanks.


AVScience forum is the best resource on the planet and is more or less HT for dummies with real time answers.

Around here 100" is not alll that big so yes SD will still look OK at that size.

Can you be more specific about the size of your room seating desires etc. Projection costs have dropped several hundred percent over the last four years and they are better by some margin.

Art

Level 3 service gets you a few dates with Chris Huston. He comes up and checks out the space and optimizes the design for the specific room. Once the room is done Richard Rives-Bird comes and measures and helps setup the speakers in the best spot. My room is height restricted and there were a number of other challenges so I figured the best solution was to get a level 3 service to maximize what my room could do since I just moved here and don't plan on moving for a while. Q is right, the price difference to go up to level 3 was nothing compared to the cost of the construction etc... Hopefully the room will be done in a few weeks.

QueueCumber: I'm in the process of completing my second level 2 Rives system (the drywall is now up). The last room they did for me was amazing and ruler flat from 175Hz up. The bass issues in that room were a function of the existing room size (I had an existing listening room/theater that they had me modify. I did not choose to do a level 3 this time because I was still not starting with a blank piece of paper. By that I mean, while the basement was unfinished, I still had some constraints to work with (primarily the ceiling height). A friend has them do a level 3 but he was literally staring from scratch - he was building a brand new home (his room is flat from 14Hz all the way up)

What do you think a level 3 would have gotten you that the level 2 did not? Just curious? (I guess this is a tad off topic!)

My last room was flat to 175hz after implementing the Rives Level II solution but really bumpy in the 63Hz range. But I had SigTech room correction on all 6 channels so it was OK (at least where I sat). Short of the visit of Chris/Richard, I think I will really get what I need in my current room. A friend did a Level 3 when he built a brand new home (room perfectly flat to 14Hz) and I was able to learn much from the guy that did his room. I too am height restricted (that is my room is height restricted - 9.75 feet!!) so we won't know until all is complete what the bass will actually be. I had a fair amount of leeway in the length-width range so Richard made the room a bit shorter than it was to optimize the bass. Because of the room restrictions (and because I don't have any issues with sound barriers-- I'm single), he had me use 1 layer of drywall versus 2 he used in my last room to minimize some of the bass build up and had the corner traps and sofet traps as part of the room. We built extra traps that are closed off but can be opened if needed.

The SigTech equipment is used to place the speakers in the perfect position (I did that for my friend and when Richard and Chris came to visit him, the speakers were exactly where they needed to be) so an after the build visit may or may not be needed. I would only consider Level III if I had no restrictions on any existing space (e.g. Mike Lavign or my friend).

It will probably be another 2 months before I know what I ended up with (bass wise). A long way to say that for me, I believe the Level II was all I needed.

My last room was flat to 175hz after implementing the Rives Level II solution but really bumpy in the 63Hz range.

What exactly does a 'flat to 175hz' or 'bumpy in the 63 hz range' sound like? I have a $1K Denon/Polk sound system and I just set it up so that it sounded right in terms of balance between the sounds coming from the 5 speakers. I can't imagine being able to notice a 'bump' in the sound. What does that mean? Also, a little off-topic, what does 7.1 buy you that 5.1 doesn't? Can I just add 2 speakers to my system to get 7.1? Thanks.

What receiver? Some are 7.1, some are 6.1, some are 5.1. Gotta have a 7.1 receiver to get 7.1. You get a more surrounding effect for more people.

Remember, you're starting off with a moped, then thinking of getting a Ducati 1098 having never ridden one before. A Ducati isn't an expensive moped and a high-end theater shouldn't be an expensive mass market system. Maybe we should stop talking about your dream system and start talking about what you have now and what it's doing/not doing before immersing you in what $20k buys you.

What equipment do you own now? Got any pics of your setup?

My current setup:

Samsung HLN437W 43" DLP 720p HDTV
PS3 80 Gig for games and BD (which really hasn't wowed me with the few titles I've played on it; really not different from upscaled DVDs I've been watching since I bought my TV originally); HDMI to DVI since TV has no HDMI
Verizon FIOS Dual-tuner DVR; component
Infinity Primus 150 Front Speakers
PolkAudio RM6762 Center Speaker
PolkAudio RM6751 Rear Speakers
PolkAudio RM6750 Sub
Denon RC-978 Receiver; optical
Sony VCR Player (for nostaligic videos)
Xbox 360 Elite 120 Gig; component, for gaming

I will be adding back into the mix my upscaling Samsung DVD player for the sole purpose of playing SD movies with a TV Guardian that filters out language so that I can enjoy movies with my wife - she hates the f bomb, etc.

Room offers 8' viewing distance to screen (about 12' wide by 22' long) with moderate brightness during day, but glaring brightness for about an hour each morning.

My chief complaints:

1) DLP does a horrible job with dark scenes; grays/blacks look awful and 'fake' (hated the LOTR chapter where they go through the mountain)
2) DLP doesn't leverage 1080p resolutions due to 720p native resolution and screen size at my viewing distance
3) My better half can hear the rumbling of the sound system during loud parts of movies from her bed two floors up; I know that good sound doesn't mean loud, and so I think I'd like to hear what really good sound actually sounds like (level 3 sound system compared to mine would be a great educational experience). I don't think I know what I'm missing, hence part of my quest . . .
4) Lack of immersion in the movie viewing experience.

Step 1: near-term (late spring/early summer) improve my experience by purchasing a 52" 1080p set; I'm looking forward to seeing the reviews of the new Samsung 650 sets. Anything bigger would be too big for the room, and probably my viewing distance.

Step 2: longer-term (next year or two; reason for the original post to determine how much cash I should start putting aside) move into a newly-built home with a dedicated HT with a large screen and truly immersive movie viewing experience. I've seen feedback for a $2K system, a $5K system, a $20K system.

That's where I'm coming from, and I know that the sky is the limit when it comes to what one CAN spend, however I'm looking for a realistic budget that I can start planning for that will give me an acceptable experience (I'm not an audiophile/techno-guru with the ability to detect a bump in a Hz range, but I don't want 'layman' quality HT either. Something in between. With a large screen.)

Thanks.

What exactly does a 'flat to 175hz' or 'bumpy in the 63 hz range' sound like?

As an example, I have ~8-5 dB and 10-12 dB humps between 50 Hz and 80 Hz. Not during that entire span, but peaking twice, once at ~5-8 dB at ~50 Hz and the second time at ~10-12 dB at ~70 Hz. How much is the room and how much is the speaker (as well as speaker placement), I'm not certain. The speaker does have a slight bass hump in those regions, but because there are two humps instead of just one, and because they are so large, I believe it is a combination of both simultaneously. Besides the bass hump in the speaker's frequency response, the room, although semi-irregular in shape, does share two partial sides with the same width and height (part of my side wall is 18' long and part of me tray ceiling is 9')...

What it does is give me some radically strong bottom depth kick drum sound. Often this is good, sometimes it is a little much. It does sound more like a "live" event sometimes because of it, albeit a bit unbalanced at other times (though easily corrected because of the low frequency of the affected regions...). It can affect the lowest notes on the piano and bass instruments as well, though these aren't played as often as a kick drum in most modern music. Thankfully it is relatively easy to fix with PEQ, or with crossing over to a subwoofer at 80 Hz.

Here are two 1/6th octave measurement overlays on one graph. The first is without a crossover to a sub, with the bass humps, and the other is with two subwoofers at the side of the room taking the 80 Hz and below via preprocessor crossover (no PEQ through a Meridian 861 - I could actually make the response better on this one, if I raised the volume of the subs some more in relation to the speakers and turned on the built in PEQ on the subs). I also have a digital PEQ I can use to get the same effect without adding separate subs, which measures even flatter.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1186546526.jpg

Okay, I understood about 20% of that :D But what does a 'hump' SOUND like? How do you know that over the range that your sub emits, during the viewing of a movie, that you've experienced a 'hump'? Can you really pick it out while watching a movie given the variety of sounds coming at you? There are some things I don't mind doing myself; the wainscotting in my dining room for example, but there are other things that maybe I wouldn't mind paying someone else to worry about, like the humps in my HT room. This is when I pay for a guru on this forum to come to my home and be the general contractor for putting in place a HT that offers quality that I can enjoy, but not with over the top expenses.

I am going to go on record that a perfectly flat room is a scourge for audiophiles

I am going to go on record that a perfectly flat room is a scourge for audiophiles

How would you define 'flat'? If they manage to kill room gain in the bass, you're right. Flat from about 200 or 300 Hz up is great. But it should have a gentle rise in the bass or it will sound like you're outside. I *assume* they just mean "smooth", but then again, Audyssey goes for "flat" and that sounds like your speakers are 6" away and you are outside.

How would you define 'flat'? If they manage to kill room gain in the bass, you're right. Flat from about 200 or 300 Hz up is great. But it should have a gentle rise in the bass or it will sound like you're outside. I *assume* they just mean "smooth", but then again, Audyssey goes for "flat" and that sounds like your speakers are 6" away and you are outside.


John for once you and I are in agreement

Keep in mind that your viewing distance to a real screen would be about 10' and that would mean a 92" diagonal, over 4 times what you have. That's part of it. your speakers are pretty much a 4 or 5 on a scale of 1-10 (including boom boxes and mini-systems) and they're mismatched. The TV is in the way sonically and is interfering with the sound. So, you may have a $5000 or more system, but you're not getting a $5k experience. Switching to a 720 DLP with a 92" screen, getting entry level high-end speakers - NHT Absolute Zeros, for instance - would make a HUGE difference. HUGE. Getting another RPTV is just more of same.

I would highly recommend finding a dealer who is good with trade ins and trade ups. Get yourself a cheap LCD for bright daylight watching, but get a 92" screen and most any PJ. Even a 720p IN76 will kick your TV in the balls.

your system isn't mediocre because it is inexpensive, it's mediocre because it isn't done from a high-end perspective. High-end is a way of doing things, not a price. That's why i say you need to up your expectations, but also how you approach it. You can waste $20K easier than spend it well, trust me.

Okay, I understood about 20% of that :D But what does a 'hump' SOUND like? How do you know that over the range that your sub emits, during the viewing of a movie, that you've experienced a 'hump'? Can you really pick it out while watching a movie given the variety of sounds coming at you? There are some things I don't mind doing myself; the wainscotting in my dining room for example, but there are other things that maybe I wouldn't mind paying someone else to worry about, like the humps in my HT room. This is when I pay for a guru on this forum to come to my home and be the general contractor for putting in place a HT that offers quality that I can enjoy, but not with over the top expenses.

Like I said, in my particular situation with kick drums in two channel music on my analog section, their deep down boom is overpowering sometimes. If you don't know what a kick drum is and what it sounds like, I don't know how to help you there, except to tell you to listen for the lowest beat drum sound underneath the rest of the music (a dull thud compared to the other drum sounds), the lowest frequency portion of that sound is the portion I am referring to. You can hear when it affects bass and piano because the affected portions become louder than the rest of the bass and piano notes. Often it gives the sound more of a dimensional feel I've noticed, which is why I say it often sounds more "live...."

With HT, I don't have to worry about it because, as I mentioned, I don't have those issues with my preprocessor crossover and subwoofers set up.

Another consideration... If I were 30 years older, the added bass humps would likely counteract a natural loss of bass sensitivity due to aging. So, while it can be a little much for me sometimes, it might be perfectly fine for someone who is older than me, i.e., balancing out the musical frequency response against their natural hearing loss.

John for once you and I are in agreement

We agree more often than that, it's just that neither one of us wants to admit it ;)

But what does a 'hump' SOUND like?Certain bass frequencies will sound much louder than others. For example, before I added some treatments to my room, the Eagle's "Hell Freezes Over" DVD sounded like the bass player was turned up to '11' on Hotel California while the rest of the group was at a lower volume setting. After adding some bass traps the sound became much more balanced.

A very rudimentary start would be to get a RS dB-SPL meter (analog is fine) and a set of test tones in 1Hz increments (freeware on the web). Play the tones through your system at a reasonable level and record the sound pressure level at the seating position for each tone. Plot the graph. You can also plot other seating positions if you want. If your room is untreated, you should see large swings in frequency response (not good). You can add some basics (1st reflection treatments and bass traps) w/o any training. Beyond that you'd need to learn a lot and invest in some tools.

You can hear 'bumps' when a bass player plays a riff and some notes seem to hang longer and are louder. Or a male singer gets chesty and muffled on some notes.

And remember, women don't hate bass, they just hate BAD bass! And most subs put out nothing but bad bass.

Certain bass frequencies will sound much louder than others. For example, before I added some treatments to my room, the Eagle's "Hell Freezes Over" DVD sounded like the bass player was turned up to '11' on Hotel California while the rest of the group was at a lower volume setting. After adding some bass traps the sound became much more balanced.

A very rudimentary start would be to get a RS dB-SPL meter (analog is fine) and a set of test tones in 1Hz increments (freeware on the web). Play the tones through your system at a reasonable level and record the sound pressure level at the seating position for each tone. Plot the graph. You can also plot other seating positions if you want. If your room is untreated, you should see large swings in frequency response (not good). You can add some basics (1st reflection treatments and bass traps) w/o any training. Beyond that you'd need to learn a lot and invest in some tools.

Hotel California is one of my "go to" tracks and I found the same until I got my Gotham subs dialed in

Flat to 175Hz means that from 175Hz to 10K Hz the spectral response was flat (plus or minus 2db). The bump at 63hz was about 8 to 10db above flat, which means that without digital room correction, it sounded like crap. And if your room had that same bump, your room would sound like crap as well. All of the tube traps in the galaxy (or any other passive device) would not fix an amplitude spike of that magnitude. While tube traps (at one time I had about 30 of them in the room) did fix some of the bass overhang, they will not solve a problem of that magnitude

Interesting. I wonder how they determine a "flat" response. Since it's not a transducer, the "response" above about a couple hundred Hz would have more to do with the speaker, its dispersion characteristics and the placement. And, as far as I can tell, you can't have a truly neutral gain room without using the design itself as a trap unless you have infinitely variable room dimensions. So the room itself would have to act as tube traps or certainly be designed to 'lose' bass that is likely to excite the room modes.

So, i guess I'll assume you mean neutral gain.

I too am height restricted (that is my room is height restricted - 9.75 feet!!) so we won't know until all is complete what the bass will actually be. I

Wow, I wish I had 9.75 feet for the ceiling height - stuck with about 7ft 10in after the suspended ceiling.

There were a lot of personalized details about the level 3 that made it worthwhile for me. From what I understand, Chris is only involved in the level 3 rooms. I had the opportunity of hearing a guy's level 2 room and to be honest I didn't like the "sound" of the room despite it measuring very well.

There are a lot of common design elements in the level 2 and level 3 rooms - I've attached a picture of my just-constructed diffusor with cherry planks (not yet varnished).

In my last room, Rives designed a kind of trap behind the screen but it did not look like yours. In this room, no such trap was designed. The common items in this and the last design are: ceiling diffusion and rear wall diffusion, first reflection point diffusion/control and hardwood floors for the first 7 or 8 feet. The first reflection point solution in my last room versus this room is also a bit different. The last room looked very cool (photo attached - like Mike Lavign's room) but cost a bunch to have those "thingies" built. In the new room, we are using a RPG product called BAD ARC.

Alimentall: The room was designed to act as "neutral" as can be. By using diffusion and absorption in places that Rives determined was necessary (as well as mid range and bass traps) they were successful at having a neutral room above 175HZ. The speakers were Dunlavy VI's that had anechoic measurements of flat (plus or minus 2db from the bottom to the top) and hence the design of the room did exactly what is was supposed to. The problem with below 175HZ is that "you can not fool mother nature" You use a rectangular room of inappropriate dimensions, you get crappy bass. The traps that we built helped a lot but no amount of bass traps would solve the problem -- hence digital room correction. My hope is that I won't need it in my new room but we shall see.

Got it. I thought you were saying they were able to build a neutral room without any trapping or passive solutions of any kind.

Here is an excellent article from Electronic House, How Much Will My Home Theater Cost? (http://www.electronichouse.com/article/how_much_will_my_home_theater_cost/).

Soundproofing is not considered in this article and will add considerably to the cost depending on the level of soundproofing and resulting architecture.

Build a detailed budget estimate and multiply 3 as was previously suggested.

Holy sheep crap! Is that in pesos? I need to at least triple my prices I guess if that's the case because that's how far off I think they are.

Here is an excellent article from Electronic House, How Much Will My Home Theater Cost? (http://www.electronichouse.com/article/how_much_will_my_home_theater_cost/).

Soundproofing is not considered in this article and will add considerably to the cost depending on the level of soundproofing and resulting architecture.

Build a detailed budget estimate and multiply 3 as was previously suggested.

Those aren't major coastal city region prices, that's for sure. That or their standard of high-end gear is much lower than mine.

Nice BIG dunlavy speakers!
I like those sidewall diffusors. Mike also told me they were expensive to build. I didn't have space for them anyway so Chris used "sawtooth" diffusors.

In my last room, Rives designed a kind of trap behind the screen but it did not look like yours. In this room, no such trap was designed. The common items in this and the last design are: ceiling diffusion and rear wall diffusion, first reflection point diffusion/control and hardwood floors for the first 7 or 8 feet. The first reflection point solution in my last room versus this room is also a bit different. The last room looked very cool (photo attached - like Mike Lavign's room) but cost a bunch to have those "thingies" built. In the new room, we are using a RPG product called BAD ARC.

Nice BIG dunlavy speakers!

I liked them too but a divorce "prompted me" to have to sell them so I will be using smaller Dunlavy speakers.

I liked them too but a divorce "prompted me" to have to sell them so I will be using smaller Dunlavy speakers.

Ouch, sorry to hear that. :(

They take, and they take, and they take, and then even after they leave you they keep taking... :mad:

I liked them too but a divorce "prompted me" to have to sell them so I will be using smaller Dunlavy speakers.

d'oh!
Audio is an expensive hobby, but divorce is even more so from what I understand. So far I only have experience with the former. :cool: