Alliteration aside, I'd like this to be a serious discussion into what YOU think should be in the perfect pre/pro. Granted it will probably cost $100,000 and take 5 years to develop, but I'd like to know what some of you guys think.

Posts should be on point and not be pro or anti manufacturer, but for example, if you want to explain why you want something and know of a manufacturer who has it, then say so.

Since pre/pros are also including video scaler, don't hold back on that option either.

This should be fun as I expect the normal crowd to chime in along with some new faces. This is also posted in the amp section, but I chose to have it here for two reasons. One, not sure how many people from this section post elsewhere and two, the over $20,000 crowd may yield different answers which is exactly what I want.

Below is my list to get things started, in no particular order.

1. 7.1 bass management
2. 11 band EQ off and on for all modes digital, user choice.
3. THX Ultra2 Cinema mode
4. Dolby Pro Logic IIx mode
5. Audyssey Pro for EQ and room setup ability to turn this off and on.
6. HDMI 1.4 features? Hahahaha.
7. Easy way to allow firmware upgrades.
8. Black and silver (I say stay Silver).
9. Crossover for all channels with 20hz or less increments.
10. LPCM or Bitstream capability for DTS True HD and DTS HD MA
11. Video scaling and de-interlacing - Reon HQV is seen as the best chip right now for upscaling up to 1080p and out.
12. (True video purists' dream) Color Management Software. True RGB and secondaries Cyan Yellow and Magenta color correction.
13. SACD or DVD-A processing.
14. DSD processing.
15. 120Hz processing
16. 12 volt triggers
17. SDI, HD-SDI inputs.
18. LED light control. Glowing logos are cool but you might not want them on.
19. OSD including volume through HDMI.
20. Anamorphic Squeeze for video.
21. Multiple subwoofer outputs

As the list grows I'll sort it out into audio/video sections and keep a tab of it. If there's something you want to see for the future like 15.4 surround, then mark it down with a tag that says "Future - blah blah blah".

Richard

Okay so for as much back and forth as goes on in this section on the forum, no one has an idea?

Richard

I for one would not put the video processing into the preamp/pro. That takes the old console stereo approach, and if something needs updating, you lose the whole system when it gets sent into the manufacturer for upgrading or service.

21) Global Master Clocking
22) 7" OLED Display

I'm not seeing the point of the "kitchen sink" idea.

I'd like one witih 4 hdmis, 4 digital inputs, digital outputs for speakers, room correction and then I've got all i need. Most of the stuff on that list is either on everything already, will be on everything in a year or is pure fantasy, so it's kind of a useless debate.

Independent selection of audio source and video source.

Multiple, individually configurable hdmi outputs. e. g. main projector, tv for talking heads, stand alone supplemental audio or video processors.

Analog pass-through for 2 channel sound.

Thanks for the ideas. Keep em coming!

Richard

Curt, John, where do you see the video processing coming in, then? That is, do you anticipate inserting the video processor after the audio pre/pro, before it, or in parallel using a splitter/switcher? I personally can't decide which is better.

If you put it before the audio pre/pro, then you might lose the ability to adjust audio settings on an input-by-input basis. On the other hand, if you put it afterwards, you might lose the ability to adjust video settings on a per-input basis (which might matter if you have a mixture of true HD and upconverted/transcoded SD sources). Using a splitter adds unnecessary hardware to the mix.

One solution is to make sure that the downstream processor supports multiple, remote-selectable presets on a single input. Then you can use the upstream processor to do switching, and simultaneously select the corresponding preset on the downstream processor.

5. Audyssey Pro for EQ and room setup ability to turn this off and on.

I would rather have the Trinnov setup in order to correct for minor speaker positioning issues, et al.:

http://www.trinnov.com/product_Optimizer.php

Also, at least 6 HDMI inputs, and two HDMI outputs, one for a monitor, and one for the main projector/TV/etc.

Also, don't forget the PEQ, if it isn't already included in one of the other room correction options.

Analog bypass for all of the inputs (5.1 and 2 channel!). Plus analog PEQ with digital controls for the analog bypassed channels. :D

Curt, John, where do you see the video processing coming in, then? That is, do you anticipate inserting the video processor after the audio pre/pro, before it, or in parallel using a splitter/switcher? I personally can't decide which is better.

Well, i don't think it makes sense to have scaling or de-interlacing in a pre-pro since that is redundant and not always an advantage. I do admit that being able to do some basic per source processing such as pixel shifting, black/white level and color could be useful with some sources.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you---it's just that a certain amount of synchronized control has to happen if you separate the audio and video processing. It seems to me that per-source processing needs to be preserved on both audio and video, somehow. But as I said, that can be rectified somehow with a good control system, as long as there are presets to work with.

of course, i'm always surprised by the lack of anything beyond a single sub and the lack of multiple 7.1 inputs on most units. I'd like to see S-video completely dropped and a maximum of about 3 or 4 composite A/V inputs. Tired of swimming through useless inputs to hook up a system!!!!

I have a proposal that i always float for a 12.4 system that is scalable down to as few channels as you have - the standard 7.1 + two front width channels, two front height channels, one overhead channel, an extra sub for stereo, a rear sub (w/possibility of bass cancellation), and a separate visceral effects channel. That covers all existing cinematic systems and ideas that I've seen floated, including Tom Holman's 10.2 system.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you---it's just that a certain amount of synchronized control has to happen if you separate the audio and video processing. It seems to me that per-source processing needs to be preserved on both audio and video, somehow. But as I said, that can be rectified somehow with a good control system, as long as there are presets to work with.

True, though it would be nice to have the *source* be powerful enough in the video department that you can compensate for its suckiness. Kinda a contradiction there, though, isn't it ;)

Oh, two component cable inputs.

Ability to implement active crossovers a-la DEQX (or Tact) for the three front channels, so that there can be three full range three way front speakers.

Don't see any need for this in the other channels

And the cool thing is that different companies have different philosophies, so you choose the one that matches up to yours. I'd like a preamp with no analog *anything* (except pre-outs) and am working hard to convince someone to do it. Well, maybe an optional "legacy" card slot.

Crap, i knew I was going to get sucked into this useless thread.......

.......Crap, i knew I was going to get sucked into this useless thread.......

Thanks for the laugh John!:)

Who said it was useless? ;) You never know who may have asked me to ask such a question.

Richard

Ideally it would be great to have a prepro with multiple HDMI 1.3 inputs, that can switch them and strip the uncompressed audio, but then pass them without affecting the video signal into a video processor (or directly into a projector). That way the video section is effectively removed, but one still gets all the audio capabilites.

What about that is different from what all HDMI 1.3 preamps do?

Well usually there are HDCP problems and such. I install tons of these things and I always come across problems with the prepro-projector switching. Essentially they need to clean it up so it actually works (which is probably why so many companies don't even have HDMI yet).

Well usually there are HDCP problems and such. I install tons of these things and I always come across problems with the prepro-projector switching. Essentially they need to clean it up so it actually works (which is probably why so many companies don't even have HDMI yet).

The Integra DTC 9.8 currently allows you to strip the audio from the HDMI output when going to a front projector versus a television with audio capabilities.

Ah, I get it, you want that "works as advertised" feature. Well, good luck with that!

Bingo! :)

Half the time you either are forced to use the internal scaling to get HDMI to pass (I won't name names) or it plain doesn't work. I am no engineer but it doesn't seem that hard to make! :)

I hear a team of Russian scientists are working on the "Works As Specified" feature, and it will be called the TrinnOn system. It uses 60 Mac computers working in unison to calculate everything that is wrong with HDMI and fix it in real time. It will cost $175,000, take up a small bedroom and will require Hillary Clinton as a cooling system.

I hear a team of Russian scientists are working on the "Works As Specified" feature, and it will be called the TrinnOn system. It uses 60 Mac computers working in unison to calculate everything that is wrong with HDMI and fix it in real time. It will cost $175,000, take up a small bedroom and will require Hillary Clinton as a cooling system.

The McCain Windows version works better, it isn't as user friendly though...

Selectable Digital X-Over (at least 3 points per channel).

Ideally it would be great to have a prepro with multiple HDMI 1.3 inputs, that can switch them and strip the uncompressed audio, but then pass them without affecting the video signal into a video processor (or directly into a projector). That way the video section is effectively removed, but one still gets all the audio capabilites.

Well usually there are HDCP problems and such. I install tons of these things and I always come across problems with the prepro-projector switching. Essentially they need to clean it up so it actually works (which is probably why so many companies don't even have HDMI yet).

Bingo! :)

Half the time you either are forced to use the internal scaling to get HDMI to pass (I won't name names) or it plain doesn't work. I am no engineer but it doesn't seem that hard to make! :)


Echo everything stated in these quotes..... and add

1. The absolute minimum video processing required to allow video overlay of volume and other receiver setup stuff onto any HDMI resolution.

2. 10+ bands of parametric EQ dedicated on the sub channels

3. 10 band independant parametric EQ on all L,C,R, Surr Channels

4. Dual sub outputs with independant EQ

5. Balanced XLR's on all outputs

6. Support all advanced surrond formats

7. Matrix back 2 channels from any 5.1 input format

8. No lip sync issues

9. network/wifi connection

10. web interface

11. Bug free and just work

12. Drop all the useless DSP echo chamber reverb modes



Now what somebody really needs to do is define an IP based interface protocol standard which allows all home AV components to talk to one another.. then have various remotes compatible with the standard.. from simple harmony type remotes all the way to full featured touch screens. Similar to the outdated RS232 that's scarily the standard in use today :eek:. Then add network/wifi support to all things av based on the standard... everything from lighting, screens, Audio, Video... it should all just "talk", advertise it's capability hooks, and easily configure to a remote device.... Did I just say that outloud? :D Forget about all that.... as I go off to the patent dept;) Just remember it was my idea first

5. Balanced XLR's on all outputs

Plus handle everything internally in balanced mode instead of in single ended mode. ;)

Thanks for everything so far!

Don't forget, tonight is the Q & A session with Krell.

Many of you have sent me questions and you'll get all your anwsers tonight! Feel free to log on and participate live, as well.

Richard

Cool, I'm excited to see what kind of feature set they are offering on the new unit. I'm actually in the market for something, be it in pieces or in one large unit. :cool:

This is the most interesting thread I have seen on the forum.

For me the ability to do setup, modify it, load and unload to and from a Mac (and PC for the unwashed) is far superior to a remote with on-unit or on-screen display. AND the pre/pro ethernet interface, whether to the Mac/PC or the internet must be usable over wi-fi.

That said, I still have reservations about combining audio and video processing in the same unit. I think there are benefits in companies specializing and focusing on one or the other.

Oh yes... another

like humbug states

13. Ability to store a few different configurations EQ etc internally and also to save them off via computer/network for unlimited options and backup. With the ability to easily choose which one for A/B comparisons of changes. Could also let a installer configure various profiles/templates offsite and then quickly load them while onsite.

I wonder... If it took 5 years to build this piece of equipment, how much of what we are asking for would still be relevant?

I was kidding about the 5 years. But this is awesome.

I'm glad people find this an interesting thread and are willing to take the time to answer.

Richard

It seems that many manuf. are very close to the list I outlined. Just that they always seems to miss a key few features that another manuf gets but is missing something else. Everyonce in awhile someone comes along and offers 95% of what you need but then it turns out to be riddled with bugs and despite advertising the features you desire only half actually work as advertised.

Is it too much to ask for something to work? Or do the things it says it does?

Lastly, once someone does come out with a good collection of the whole package don't bend over and price gouge the customer. None of these features are really all that costly.. It shouldn't be a 20k piece.. It should be under 1k without amps... maybe 1.5k with standard mediocre integrated amps.

Look at the pro gear.... funny how they can offer tons of wiz bang DSP options and configuration.... balanced outputs... endless storage settings and expandability.... All in a nice road worthy chassis and with power supply (probably the most expensive part) all for a few hundred bucks to start.

Everyone's entiled to a profit in this world... but some of the high end audio gouging is just sickening.

I wonder... If it took 5 years to build this piece of equipment, how much of what we are asking for would still be relevant?

In five years, there will be HDMI 2.0 with up to 2160 x 5184 capability

Processors will support up to 16 channels of sound.

Digital speaker outputs will be the norm.

RF capability with 2-way touch screen remotes will be standard

Wireless speaker capability will also be standard, especially for multi-zone

Speaker/room correction will be active and adaptive well beyond todays

HDMI 1.3 inputs will be the "legacy" input

Multi-zone HDMI outputs will be standard.

Wireless digital A/V inputs will be standard so you don't 'plug in' a source, you attach it with the touch of a button

Wired ethernet will be all over the back, but mainly for the 2-3 year old stuff.

Touch pads will plug into a wall outlet and transmit 2-way control data over the power cord for longer distances.

All units will have built in hard drives for music storage and/or USB 3.0 ports

Speech recognition will be built into the remotes

The remotes will have a headphone jack and act as a wireless headphone/portable/marriage saver.

The unit will display photos and movies over the remote control's touch screen as well as take photos that will be saved to the hard drive.

A paging/intercom system will be built into the remote.

Basic home control will be built in and operated by speech - 'water plants in 2 hours" "shut down house, i'm going to bed" "parental locks on"

Here's some fun concept art for our new perfect pre/pro.



Richard

Here's some fun concept art for our new perfect pre/pro.



Richard

How about a magic 8-ball case? When you don't know if you should buy a new piece of source equipment to add to your setup, you can shake it and ask the 8-ball. :D

1. stepped attenuator for volume control

[bonus points to the company that uses them for manual channel adjustments as well - imagine 8 knobs on the front panel ha! not sure if this is possible, but in my brain it could work! - or allows a variety of bypasses depending on user config - - - eg. A) bypass all post processing/channel volumes and take signal after D/A/C straight to the volume control for those of us who can set all speakers equally away from the listening position an maybe sacrifice up to about .5dB difference between speakers for the sake of sound quality - - B) bypass of individual channel volume adjustments but use of bass management still applied and then send to volume control - - C) bypass bass management but utilize channel volume adjustments and then send to volume control, just like most do today.]

2. Fully balanced design (differential balanced or dual-differential...whatever you want to call it)

3. A subwoofer output PER CHANNEL with a selectable crossover in small increments)

The McCain Windows version works better, it isn't as user friendly though...


You just need to Obama that with a hammer

Sorry, it had to be done...

You just need to Obama that with a hammer

Sorry, it had to be done...

Who can afford the hammer?!? All the money went to healthcare and welfare... :D

But at least obama don't look like road kill...

Peter, you should talk, you look like McCain's younger, chubbier brother.

oh boy, i can see where this is going......

Yeah let's keep it on track.

Or something.

Richard

Peter, you should talk, you look like McCain's younger, chubbier brother.

oh boy, i can see where this is going......

At least this is not my demo material of choice:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QV6BXR5EL._SS500_.jpg

Though retorts are rebounding through my head like pin balls, I choose not to escalate on this one.