Was over at my nephews and just watched the Apple Dumpling Gang.
Decided to check out the Audio commentary and we heard nothing.
Tried a different DVD player and it worked.
His DVD player is a Norcent DVD player just purchased last year.
So, it's pretty new/recent but could not play the Audio commentary but a 3-4 year old Sony DVD player could.

Then we looked at the DVD and what do you know, it has a disclosure about some players may not be able to access all features.
This DVD came out on 2003.

Even with modern final spec DVD players, people can't access all features on DVD's.
What makes Blu-ray profiles any different when people won't have access to web features or PiP on 1.0 profile players ?
If is good enough that the player can play movies ?

No promises are made that a player supports all features on a DVD even on DVD players sold today but we all assume that the movie can be played.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/zx3maniac/AppleDumplingGang-disclosure.jpg

Unlike bluray dvd was specs complete from day one. My first dvd player was a 1st gen Pioneer Dv-500 and had no issues whatsoever. DVD was dual layer from the start so this Bill Hunt nonsense about players not being able to do a layer change is absolute BS!!! Usually on a dvd there are multiple audio tracks. Accessing a commentary is as simple as changing audio options. This doesn't make sense. You would have just as difficult a time accessing a spanish language track.

Was over at my nephews and just watched the Apple Dumpling Gang.
Decided to check out the Audio commentary and we heard nothing.
Tried a different DVD player and it worked.
His DVD player is a Norcent DVD player just purchased last year.
So, it's pretty new/recent but could not play the Audio commentary but a 3-4 year old Sony DVD player could.

Then we looked at the DVD and what do you know, it has a disclosure about some players may not be able to access all features.
This DVD came out on 2003.

Even with modern final spec DVD players, people can't access all features on DVD's.
What makes Blu-ray profiles any different when people won't have access to web features or PiP on 1.0 profile players ?
If is good enough that the player can play movies ?

No promises are made that a player supports all features on a DVD even on DVD players sold today but we all assume that the movie can be played.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/zx3maniac/AppleDumplingGang-disclosure.jpg

I think the real fear is that newer titles might use BD Java in such a way as to trigger a complete lockup on older players when the disc is first loaded. Hopefully the titles will get tested heavily to make sure they don't run into this, but with the myriad of firmwares out there something is bound to go wrong (like with BD+ and the recent Samsung lawsuit).


As for your nephews DVD player, are you sure it wasn't some PCM vs bitstream issue in the player setup?

Was over at my nephews and just watched the Apple Dumpling Gang.
Decided to check out the Audio commentary and we heard nothing.
Tried a different DVD player and it worked.
His DVD player is a Norcent DVD player just purchased last year.
So, it's pretty new/recent but could not play the Audio commentary but a 3-4 year old Sony DVD player could.

Then we looked at the DVD and what do you know, it has a disclosure about some players may not be able to access all features.
This DVD came out on 2003.

Even with modern final spec DVD players, people can't access all features on DVD's.
What makes Blu-ray profiles any different when people won't have access to web features or PiP on 1.0 profile players ?
If is good enough that the player can play movies ?

No promises are made that a player supports all features on a DVD even on DVD players sold today but we all assume that the movie can be played.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/zx3maniac/AppleDumplingGang-disclosure.jpg


DVD was introduced in 1997 and it was the first digital format for video to be made into mainstream.
Blu-ray came to market in 2006; which is at least 9 years after the introduction of DVD. In these span of 9 years a lot of technologies have advanced and Sony, Panasonic and others should have gained enough experience to prevent those shortcomings. Toshiba got it right from day one; BDA didn't.
Just because DVD couldn't get DTS or some features right from day one it doesn't mean it's okay for Blu-ray to be the same.
Blu-ray is supposed to be the most advanced optical format; it shouldn't repeat the mistakes that DVD made (if you can call them mistakes; that part is subjective)

That's a pretty standard disclosure. But, frankly, I've never been greatly affected by such glitches with DVD. The Toshiba DVD player I purchased in 1997 understandably had a couple of odd bugs like that -- we had trouble with a special feature on a Snow White disc and a music video on a James Bond disc, as I recall -- but with over five hundred other DVDs, we encountered no other problems that I recall.

Sorry, but I'd have to say that Blu-ray's profile issues are a lot larger than the occasional odd bug that may pop up on a DVD.

Sorry, but I'd have to say that Blu-ray's profile issues are a lot larger than the occasional odd bug that may pop up on a DVD.

I've never ever had a DVD video not play every single feature on any DVD player I've stuck it in. If I ever encountered something on a disc that didn't play in a "DVD" logo'd player.. I'd take it back to the store and ask for a refund.

With my very first DVD player -- a Phillips -- that I still own.. layer changes make a 1/2 second pause and it won't play DVD+R... but other than that.. I can put the latest "Dead Man's Chest" into it.. and it still plays beautifully -- every single feature.

I have the same experience from my HD-A2.. I've heard others haven't been so lucky.. but for me and my experience.. not a single disc has had issues for me. (over 100 played so far)

If I buy a DVD player -- I expect it to play any disc that has DVD on it.
If I buy a HD-DVD player -- I expect it to play any disc that has HD-DVD on it.
If I buy a XBOX 360 -- I expect it to play any disc that has XBOX 360 on it.

Why is it wrong of me to expect that If I buy a Blu-ray player -- I expect it to play any disc that has Blu-ray on it.

By Play I mean EVERYTHING they put on the disc.

DVD was introduced in 1997 and it was the first digital format for video to be made into mainstream.
Blu-ray came to market in 2006; which is at least 9 years after the introduction of DVD. In these span of 9 years a lot of technologies have advanced and Sony, Panasonic and others should have gained enough experience to prevent those shortcomings. Toshiba got it right from day one; BDA didn't.
Just because DVD couldn't get DTS or some features right from day one it doesn't mean it's okay for Blu-ray to be the same.
Blu-ray is supposed to be the most advanced optical format; it shouldn't repeat the mistakes that DVD made (if you can call them mistakes; that part is subjective)

In my opinion bluray isn't making the mistakes that dvd made. It is making brand new ones. In dvd's defense DTS to this day is not a mandatory codec. It is optional. These players should have been 2.0 out the gate or have the same features as hddvd since they were 2-3 times the price.

People that bought pre-2.0 BD knew what they were getting into....kind of. They knew they may not be able to access certain extras on future discs and made their decisions. With that being said, not being able to play the main movie because your particular vender (wink, wink Samsung) decides they could care less about supporting their product is total BS.

Extras are one thing, the main movie is an entirely different matter.

People that bought pre-2.0 BD knew what they were getting into....kind of. They knew they may not be able to access certain extras on future discs and made their decisions. With that being said, not being able to play the main movie because your particular vender (wink, wink Samsung) decides they could care less about supporting their product is total BS.

Extras are one thing, the main movie is an entirely different matter.

This "people knew what they were geting into" crud is just that ...crud.. If these players were only available to he tech savvy or enthusiast I would say Agreed !. But they are not.

They are available to anyone who walks into a store and wants to fork out the $$ for them.

This does Not mean "they knew what they were getting into". Dont believe everything the BDA says in their defense. I realise that might be difficult for some - but come on think like a consumer thinks not like a format war / defender thinks.

People that bought pre-2.0 BD knew what they were getting into....kind of. They knew they may not be able to access certain extras on future discs and made their decisions. With that being said, not being able to play the main movie because your particular vender (wink, wink Samsung) decides they could care less about supporting their product is total BS.

Extras are one thing, the main movie is an entirely different matter.

Bull$hit!!!!!!!!

People expect when a product launches that they have finalized the specs!! Which the BDA clearly did not do. They easily could have made every player 2.0 out the gate and chose not to screwing the consumer in the process and charging them $1000-$1500 to boot upon launch!!

I have yet to see one salesperson tell me that the 1.0 obsolete bluray player will not play all the features on the disc. I have yet to see any advertising on a 1.0 player or box that tells the consumer it will not access features on future discs. This is a triple dip by the BDA and is absolute nonsense that boils down to one word greed. Consumers are not deciding this war corporate payoffs are.

Look at this from another perspective in 1996 Toshiba and Warner design Super Density Disc. Sony and Phillips design Multimedia Compact Disc. Since most manufacturers are behind SDD Toshiba offers Sony an olive branch and accepts EFMPlus modulation from the MMCD and implements it into dvd. This helps prevent scratching and fingerprint playback problems.

9 years later Sony has the most support with bluray. All Toshiba asks is for a 2.0 compliant player out the gate with secondary audio and video encoders, 1gb persistent storage memory and an ethernet port. They also ask for HDi to be used instead of BD-J. In their arrogance the BDA refuses, consumers are left buying 1.0 obsolete players at ridiculous prices, BDJ is so problematic it is the reason for many lawsuits against Sony and Sansung right now as many newer discs and features will not play on the players, due to stiff competition from hddvd the BDA releases 2.0 players anyway. HDi on the other hand has worked flawlessly out of the gate and if HDi was accepted 25gb blurays when first launched would have used VC1 instead of the artifact prone MPEG-2 that all the studios have abandoned except "20th Century"(no pun intended) Fox and would have looked great out of the gate like hddvd did.

People that bought pre-2.0 BD knew what they were getting into....kind of. They knew they may not be able to access certain extras on future discs and made their decisions. .

I just don't buy that..........
If that were the case there would be no lawsuit against Samsung right now.

I can't understand how anyone could believe that most people were fully aware of the limitations of 1.0 spec Bluray players and yet STILL chose to pay twice as much for that player over the HD DVD version.

I here the Panasonic BD50 will be the first 2.0 spec S/A player from Bluray in March and will retail for $999? Wasn't the very first Bluray player $999? Shouldn't prices be going down? I suppose for Bluray, full disc compatability is a "special feature" and should command a premium.

Let me ask you this: Have you seen those huge 5 disc versions of the LOTR movies? Can you imagine if that came out on BD how pissed people would be if they spent the big bucks for it only to find out later that ALL those extras can't be viewed with their 2 month old Bluray player?

That has never happened on DVD, but it is happening to Bluray and will only get worse.

All HD DVD has to do is stay alive long enough till Bluray implodes.

Interesting thought.

I removed that from my original post because I wanted to stick to the topic of the OP and not turn it into a Bluray vs HD DVD thread however, yes those are my thoughts.

In my opinion bluray isn't making the mistakes that dvd made. It is making brand new ones. In dvd's defense DTS to this day is not a mandatory codec. It is optional. These players should have been 2.0 out the gate or have the same features as hddvd since they were 2-3 times the price.

I agree with you. DTS is not needed to enjoy the 5.1 sound. The reason I brought it up is because people here are enthusiasts so to them DTS might be a big deal back in the day.
I find it quiet amusing that how one company like Toshiba single handedly manages to deliver players with final spec from day one but a group of CE companies with big names like Sony, Panasonic and Philips fail to do the same; considering the Blu-ray technology has been out since 2003 for recorders. Didn't they have enough time to get their act together and come with finalized players from day one?
The philosophy from BDA has been pricing their products high enough to make a profit and I'm fine with it. But now that people have to pay premium for their products, why can't they deliver the same spec that even their competitor is offering at a lower price?

Boy, people seem to have forgotten the multiple problems with early DVD players, which I'm sure are archived around here somewhere. Every first-generation player, with the possible exception of the Sonys -- which may be ironic, depending on your view -- had incompatibilities with one or more discs, because either the CE manufacturers or the DVD producers failed to adhere to the spec. The Matrix was particularly problematic because it pushed the boundaries of the spec, using a bunch of options that many early players balked at. It ran perfectly on my Sony but not on my PC with whatever software I was using. (WinDVD, I think.)

My early Sony didn't read DVD-R, which wasn't an issue at the time. When it became an issue, I had to get a newer player. Of the four SA players I bought between my Sony and my Toshiba HD A3, all had problems with different DVD-Rs, the Oppo being the most finicky.

Boy, people seem to have forgotten the multiple problems with early DVD players, which I'm sure are archived around here somewhere. Every first-generation player, with the possible exception of the Sonys -- which may be ironic, depending on your view -- had incompatibilities with one or more discs, because either the CE manufacturers or the DVD producers failed to adhere to the spec. The Matrix was particularly problematic because it pushed the boundaries of the spec, using a bunch of options that many early players balked at. It ran perfectly on my Sony but not on my PC with whatever software I was using. (WinDVD, I think.)

My early Sony didn't read DVD-R, which wasn't an issue at the time. When it became an issue, I had to get a newer player. Of the four SA players I bought between my Sony and my Toshiba HD A3, all had problems with different DVD-Rs, the Oppo being the most finicky.

Right out of the Sony manual:

This player supports BD-ROM Profile 1 only. Playback of later versions of BDs other than BD-ROM is not guaranteed

Since the Blu-ray Disc specifications are new and evolving, some discs may not play depending on the disc type and the version..."

Sony released 3rd gen 1.0 players 2 weeks prior to the 1.1 spec being mandatory knowing full well the possible consequences.

If thats not planned obsolescence then I don't know what is.


http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/sony-blu-ray-specification-deadline

I agree with you. DTS is not needed to enjoy the 5.1 sound. The reason I brought it up is because people here are enthusiasts so to them DTS might be a big deal back in the day.
I find it quiet amusing that how one company like Toshiba single handedly manages to deliver players with final spec from day one but a group of CE companies with big names like Sony, Panasonic and Philips fail to do the same; considering the Blu-ray technology has been out since 2003 for recorders. Didn't they have enough time to get their act together and come with finalized players from day one?
The philosophy from BDA has been pricing their products high enough to make a profit and I'm fine with it. But now that people have to pay premium for their products, why can't they deliver the same spec that even their competitor is offering at a lower price?

Their philosophy is milking the consumer for all they are worth!!! Hence the 3 player profiles. I am format neutral by gunpoint.

Boy, people seem to have forgotten the multiple problems with early DVD players, which I'm sure are archived around here somewhere. Every first-generation player, with the possible exception of the Sonys -- which may be ironic, depending on your view -- had incompatibilities with one or more discs, because either the CE manufacturers or the DVD producers failed to adhere to the spec. The Matrix was particularly problematic because it pushed the boundaries of the spec, using a bunch of options that many early players balked at. It ran perfectly on my Sony but not on my PC with whatever software I was using. (WinDVD, I think.)

My early Sony didn't read DVD-R, which wasn't an issue at the time. When it became an issue, I had to get a newer player. Of the four SA players I bought between my Sony and my Toshiba HD A3, all had problems with different DVD-Rs, the Oppo being the most finicky.

My 1st gen Pioneer DV-500 played every disc and feature without a hitch and it was purchased in Mar. of 97.

In all the advertising and loops I've seen playing on displays at retail, I've never....not once... seen any advertising mention profiles. I've seen "interactivity" and "special features" being touted to the high heavens (even last year!!) but nowhere was it ever mentioned that the current players, or even the ones next year (at that time) would be able to play them. I've never heard sales people mention it either.

Saying "people knew what they were getting in to" is quite disingenuous, to put it mildly.

People that bought pre-2.0 BD knew what they were getting into....kind of. They knew they may not be able to access certain extras on future discs and made their decisions. With that being said, not being able to play the main movie because your particular vender (wink, wink Samsung) decides they could care less about supporting their product is total BS.

How did they know that? It's not on the player boxes and it's not on the signage in stores either.

How did they know that? It's not on the player boxes and it's not on the signage in stores either.

Just face it. Blu-ray and the profile issues were all designed to do one thing. Sell PS3 units. Nothing more. Nothing less.

How hard is it for technology companies to build a profile 2.0 unit right from the start? Toshiba did it (at half the price) -- It's not hard. They just knew they needed to use this as leverage to increase PS3 sales to help recoup the millions of dollars they had lost trying to get this thing off the ground. They could care less about the owners of ANY other Blu-ray device -- that's not the PS3.

Best quote ever:


Frank Simonis, the European chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, was the one who spoke out about why new standards (such as Profile 1.1) took so long to hit the market.

"We needed to create momentum and get the players on the market", he said.

"If we had postponed launch to add in the hardware for the latest features, we would not be in the situation we have today."

Most early adopters who do not have the latest "Final Profile" will not be able to take full advantage of the format and its additional bonus features, without purchasing a new Blu-ray player. The new profile will not be available as a firmware update for older players, he added.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12619.cfm

Look on the back of your DVDs for something called "Interactual". You cannot use these features on your DVD player. All of the Star Wars discs have them. I don't know if you can get a refund but you can certainly try.

All the discs I've seen with that on the back are also noted as requiring a computer with a DVD drive to access that content.

Many people who bought profile 1.0 players knew that they would not have access to the special features on future discs but the fact that discs may not play has been kept rather quiet. Of course the average person who bought a player to go with their new HDTV and doesn't frequent places like AVS Forum probably wouldn't know that.

There is a serious problem if you have to open the box and read the manual to discover that what you just purchased may not even play the movie portion of future Blu-ray discs.
Once you open that box many retailers will hit you with that 15% restocking fee because the product has been opened. So you are faced with either keeping a product that may not be able to play all future content or you pay ~$60 to return a $400 player (and obviously more for more expensive players).

This is the type of information that needs to be clearly written on the box and not stuck in the manual, it is information that could affect the consumer's decision whether or not to purchase the player. Business laws require this type of information to be disclosed prior to purchase because it is material enough to affect a persons decision on the purchase. From a legal standpoint it is no different than a car dealer knowing that a car has a blown head gasket and withholding that information from you when you purchase that car.


I'd like to know how 720p TVs are now obsolete?

Its been kept quiet because its not true. All discs play in all players and always will.

If you are thinking about Samsung they made a shoddy product which happens all the time in every industry. And they are paying for the price for it now with a well deserved lawsuit.

I supposed that you missed the post where someone quoted from the Sony manual. It said that some discs may not play. They didn't say they won't they said may not.

Of course it is not true right now, but Sony is apparently trying to cover themselves because apparently they either cannot guarantee that all future discs will be able to play in their player.

Can you guarantee that all 2.0 discs will play in a 1.0 player? I am only speaking about the movie itself, not the special features such as BD-Live etc....

Once you have the first disc that will not play, Sony opens themselves up to a lawsuit as well becuase that information was not disclosed prior to purchasing the product.

There are lots of extra warnings these days in our lawsuit driven society. My 1st gen DVD player certainly needed such a warning since it does not play many discs. Should I sue Pioneer?

It only needed a warning if in fact they knew that there could be a problem when the unit was sold. If Pioneer was unaware of any potential problems with discs not being able to play in their 1st gen player, then there is nothing to disclose. You are required by law to disclose what you know, not what you don't know.

By sticking the warning in the manual, Sony knows there might be a problem in the future. The issue is that since the warning is in the manual, it should be posted on the box because the potential problem is material enough to influence a consumers decision.
Where Sony and other CEs open themselves up to being sued is as soon as there is one disc that will not play in a first gen player, and it cannot be corrected through new firmware. If that never happens then you will never see that lawsuit.

Could you imagine if Nintendo started selling discs where the main game worked on all Wiis, but the mini-games only played on a minority of consoles?

What about a PS3 game that works just fine, but the cinematics just play on the new 80GB model?

As for your nephews DVD player, are you sure it wasn't some PCM vs bitstream issue in the player setup?
The player only has composite outputs.
It's 3 composite cables connected to the rear of the TV.
The movie played but no audio at all. Picture with complete silience.

The player only has composite outputs.
It's 3 composite cables connected to the rear of the TV.
The movie played but no audio at all. Picture with complete silience.

I have never heard of a DVD player that would not play audio over RCA jacks.
My bet is that there is a bug in the Norcent SW. Kind of like all the issues with Blu-ray players. You should see if you can get a firmware update. I just hope that CE makers are not following HDMs lead and lowering their standards.

this disclaimer may be intended for features that could only be accessed on a computer's dvd-rom drive - interactive features, web enabled content. were there such features on the disc or perhaps the disclaimer was put on discs that did not contain such content?

HD-DVD spec has been changed...

Nov. 16th, 2007 2:44 pm

At its 40th Steering Committee Meeting, the DVD Forum has approved the triple-layer HD DVD ROM (read only) specification proposed by Toshiba. The new HD DVD ROM disc has a three-layer structure, with each layer storing 17GB of data, offering a total disc capacity of 51 gigabytes. Currently, HD DVD ROM has a single-layer capacity of 15 GB, with dual-layer discs offering 30 GB.

The new disc, which can store up to 7 hours of high-definition video, shares the same disc structure as standard DVD and previously announced HD DVD formats: two 0.6-mm thick discs bonded back-to-back. This time-tested physical structure offers proven volume manufacturing at little cost increment.

With this latest development, the HD DVD camp is able to offer a product that matches the capacity offered by a dual-layer Blu-ray Disc.


... Wait you said it was finished and complete (P.S. This is OLD news.)

HD-DVD spec has been changed...



... Wait you said it was finished and complete (P.S. This is OLD news.)

And where does it say you'd need to buy a new player to play 51 GB disks ?

Everyone who is complaining about BD Profiles should also be complaining about HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, about 1080p TVs with no 1080p input, and about 720p TVs that are now obsolete.

True but topics for different forums and threads.

I am already up one receiver. The one year old one is going to good use in a bedroom mini theater.

Everyone who is complaining about BD Profiles should also be complaining about HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, about 1080p TVs with no 1080p input, and about 720p TVs that are now obsolete.

Wow, 720p TVs are now obsolete? So when you buy a portable 10 inch TV it has to be 1080p? Did FOX, ABC and ESPN change their HD broadcast format to something other than 720p?


btw, EVERYONE complains about HDMI and its various versions. Just like BD 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0, HDMI specs are a huge mess.

If you want to fully enjoy 90% of the content out there that is 1080i or 1080p then certainly it is obsolete.
OT- It's commonly known that passed a certain, fairly close viewing distance (I believe 7-9 ft), your eyes can not tell the difference between 720 and 1080 on a typical 50" display. According to the ISF, resolution is the fourth most important factor for picture quality.
1. contrast ratio 2. color saturation 3. color accuracy 4. resolution
If I was buying a new TV today, I'd buy a Pioneer 5080 before anything 1080p in its price range.

Right out of the Sony manual:

This player supports BD-ROM Profile 1 only. Playback of later versions of BDs other than BD-ROM is not guaranteed

Since the Blu-ray Disc specifications are new and evolving, some discs may not play depending on the disc type and the version..."

Sony released 3rd gen 1.0 players 2 weeks prior to the 1.1 spec being mandatory knowing full well the possible consequences.

If thats not planned obsolescence then I don't know what is.


http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/sony-blu-ray-specification-deadline

And how am I suppose to read the manual before I bought the thing. I don't see the manual sitting next to the box at Best Buy. Not everyone reads countless reviews online before going to the store.

Boy, people seem to have forgotten the multiple problems with early DVD players, which I'm sure are archived around here somewhere. Every first-generation player, with the possible exception of the Sonys -- which may be ironic, depending on your view -- had incompatibilities with one or more discs, because either the CE manufacturers or the DVD producers failed to adhere to the spec. The Matrix was particularly problematic because it pushed the boundaries of the spec, using a bunch of options that many early players balked at. It ran perfectly on my Sony but not on my PC with whatever software I was using. (WinDVD, I think.)

My early Sony didn't read DVD-R, which wasn't an issue at the time. When it became an issue, I had to get a newer player. Of the four SA players I bought between my Sony and my Toshiba HD A3, all had problems with different DVD-Rs, the Oppo being the most finicky.

You speak the truth, my friend. But people have selective memories when it comes to things like this and will continue to make mountains out of molehills because it conveniently furthers their particular agenda and accentuates their format of choice's one strength, no matter how insignificant.

Brandon

Could you imagine if Nintendo started selling discs where the main game worked on all Wiis, but the mini-games only played on a minority of consoles?

What about a PS3 game that works just fine, but the cinematics just play on the new 80GB model?

... or if an Xbox 360 title that couldn't be played online unless you had a model with a hard drive?

http://www.videogamer.com/news/30-01-2008-7383.html

And how am I suppose to read the manual before I bought the thing. I don't see the manual sitting next to the box at Best Buy. Not everyone reads countless reviews online before going to the store.

Tha same can be said about DVD players incapable of playing certain disc types.

"Some CD-R/CD-RW discs may be incompatible due to laser pick-up and disc design. DVD-R discs recorded by DVD Video method can be played. Some DVD-R discs may be incompatible due to laser pick-up and disc design. WMA, MP3 and JPEG discs may be incompatible due to different recording format or condition of disc."

SOURCE (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=sd-6980)


And how about this disclosure in the HD DVD manual AFTER someone has bought the player. Why not put this in bold letters on top of the box ?

"Because HD DVD is a new format that makes use of new technologies, certain disc, digital connection and other compatibility and/or performance issues are possible.
This may, in rare cases, include disc freezing while accessing certain disc features or functions, or certain parts of the disc not playing back or operating as fully intended."

The issue here is some discs, not yet released, might not play; which even Sony at least recognizes that there might be a problem with those discs yet to be released, even though the way they disclosed it can still open themselves to lawsuits.



I believe that's one of the reasons they(BDA) created the BluFocus company/division.
Their sole purpose is to assure 100% compatibility with of all new releases with all Blu-ray players. If they do their job well, we should see 100% compatibility of 1.1 & 2.0 profile disc releases on 1.0 profile players.

Does the DVD spec include the ability to play WMA, MP3, and JPEG? I don't believe it does. This isn't about support for different file formats being stamped on the box. If the player supports those formats and they explain in the manual how the disc needs to be set up so those files can be read, they are covered, because they are giving the necessary information to the consumer.
Aren't CD-R and CD-RW different specifications than DVD or standard CD? It comes down to the file format on those CD-R and CD-RW discs. If the player does not suppot MP3, you cannot expect it to play a CD-R with MP3s on it.

Also keep in mind, as long as any problems can be correct by a firmware update, they cannot be sued, because they are fixing the problem. The issue arises when they cannot correct the problem through a firmware update.

... or if an Xbox 360 title that couldn't be played online unless you had a model with a hard drive?

http://www.videogamer.com/news/30-01-2008-7383.html

Exactly. Funny how people get upset about that, but not the Blu-ray profile mess...or the Samsung players that can't Blu-ray discs.

I believe that's one of the reasons they(BDA) created the BluFocus company/division.
Their sole purpose is to assure 100% compatibility with of all new releases with all Blu-ray players. If they do their job well, we should see 100% compatibility of 1.1 & 2.0 profile disc releases on 1.0 profile players.

Unlike the in past with Samsung, LG, etc.

They also need to address that whole BD-Java/2+ minute load time issue.
The fact that Disney now has disclaimers that say it may take over 2 minutes for the disc to load is very telling. Its one thing to have to wait for a player to turn on (just leave it on all the time like I do with my PS3), but to then have to wait 2+ more minutes to load? That's terrible. Of course with Disney, you then have to wait 5 more minutes to get past all their advertisements!:eek:

Do you have a Disney movie that takes over 2 minutes?

I know Ratatouille has the screen but I can get to the movie very quickly. Just hit triangle to skip the previews and fire it up. PS3 is my player. Pretty sure still faster than any of my HD DVD's load in my A3.

I believe that's one of the reasons they(BDA) created the BluFocus company/division.
Their sole purpose is to assure 100% compatibility with of all new releases with all Blu-ray players. If they do their job well, we should see 100% compatibility of 1.1 & 2.0 profile disc releases on 1.0 profile players.

If that group is able to get any problems addressed before the discs hit the street, then there is no problem at all and a bunch of us profile 1.0 owners will be happy campers.

I'll eventually buy a 2.0 player, once the price is reasonable. I cannot see me playing nearly a grand for a profile 2.0 player though. That will let me move my profile 1.0 player to the bedroom to use on my 3 year old 720p DLP HDTV.

I believe that's one of the reasons they(BDA) created the BluFocus company/division.
Their sole purpose is to assure 100% compatibility with of all new releases with all Blu-ray players. If they do their job well, we should see 100% compatibility of 1.1 & 2.0 profile disc releases on 1.0 profile players.

impossible.

Not in this reality. 100% is unacheivable just from the sheer fact of manufacturing. They are not going to test every single disc out the door. The BEST that I have seen out of any manufacturing was a 99.2% out the door and this was with Implantible Cardiac Defibrilators which a persons life depend on them.

Do you have a Disney movie that takes over 2 minutes?

I know Ratatouille has the screen but I can get to the movie very quickly. Just hit triangle to skip the previews and fire it up. PS3 is my player. Pretty sure still faster than any of my HD DVD's load in my A3.

That is because you and I were smart and bought PS3s instead of crippled stand-alones. I saw one guy post in the blu-ray HW forum that BD-J discs take 5 minutes to load on his stand-alone.

You don't have to test EVERY SINGLE disc. They are not looking for physical defects.

it does not matter.

100% is unachievable. The aforementioned company I mentioned DID test all thier products out the door and they still could only manage a 99.2%.

impossible.

Not in this reality. 100% is unacheivable just from the sheer fact of manufacturing. They are not going to test every single disc out the door. The BEST that I have seen out of any manufacturing was a 99.2% out the door and this was with Implantible Cardiac Defibrilators which a persons life depend on them.

They just need to test for compatibility with the individual players, and they could probably do it just using current firmware. Only 1 copy of each seperate product would need to be tested.

I'm amused that so many who believe in competition can't recognize it in action. DVD was pretty much standardized out of the gate because there was no time pressure or competing feature set. Blu-ray is adding features from HD DVD just like HD DVD has been investigating a 50+ GB move. No real difference.

I'm doubly amused st all the fears of compatibility issues with new titles. Sure, there will be minor glitches and fixes, but a profile 2.0 title that won't work at all in a player without a network connection? That would be suicide for a studio. Players without Ethernet can do everything a player blessed with BDLive can do - if you don't connect it to a network. I'm betting that'll be a sizable market for some time to come.

They just need to test for compatibility with the individual players, and they could probably do it just using current firmware. Only 1 copy of each seperate product would need to be tested.

I am not talking about the test :) Testing is easy as long as they already have procedures in place which I am sure they must.

I am talking about "100%" that was mentioned by 42Plasmaman. That is impossible to do. Regardless of how much you test.

I am not talking about the test :) Testing is easy as long as they already have procedures in place which I am sure they must.

I am talking about "100%" that was mentioned by 42Plasmaman. That is impossible to do. Regardless of how much you test.

I am pretty sure that is not what he meant when he made that statement and I think you are splitting hairs now. :p

I am pretty sure that is not what he meant when he made that statement and I think you are splitting hairs now. :p

meant and what he posted are two differing things.

In black and white.


Their sole purpose is to assure 100% compatibility with of all new releases with all Blu-ray players. If they do their job well, we should see 100% compatibility of 1.1 & 2.0 profile disc releases on 1.0 profile players.


There is no room for interpretation.

100% will Blu-Ray's HDM will work on 100% (all) of Blu-ray players.

It will never happen. What will happen is that the BDA can minimize cust. support calls on issues but to state that there will be 100% is really an extremly BAD choice of words.

I don't think 42Plasmaman is an official spokesperson for the BDA. Cut him a break. He still made his point.


And when all is said and done I think more people will be upset about buying a player for a dead format that is increasingly having less and less content, than they will with not being able to connect their discs online with Profile 2.0. But I guess you could say that "they knew what they were getting into" too. :rolleyes:

I won't and never said he was. One last time. My detailed response was based on real life numbers. Not "if/ could /should / would / et al.

Those type of post is exactly what starts the bickering in this fine forum in the first place. Vagueness or posting information as fact when it is an opinion.

as to your second sentence........ dead format is IRRELEVANT to the topic on hand. The topic is blu-ray profiles any different than current final spec DVD profile, not HDM (HD-DVD or Blu-ray)........

Oh we are getting back on topic now. Good. Go back and read my previous post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13076304&postcount=27) which seems to have been ignored and then come back and talk about BD profiles, where you at least have clear knowledge of what works and what doesn't.

I will address it as someone basing thier opinion on heresay. I take blog entries with a grain of salt as they neither speak officially for the organization or corporation or even the company they work for. It is their opinion only.

The blu-ray profiles was known from the get go, at least to the tech savvy folks such as the likes here. The ordinary citizen does not know and will not know until after the fact. Because you can bet your bottom dollar that the seller (BBY, TGT, etc) won't say "This player will not play EVERY feature on future blu-ray discs". They will close the sell.

HAHA. Did you even read the article? HINT: Its 9 years old and talking about well known issues with DVDs.

Heres a link to the Wired piece:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1999/09/31560


BTW I don't remember having any problems playing it in my 1st gen player. But I DO remember lots of people, including myself, being upset at the fact that the majority of the special features were only accessible on a PC with a DVD-ROM drive. Which no one had at the time. You couldn't even watch the trailers in your standalone.

True, but the reality here is that the firmware updates are much more prevalent. How many PS3 upgrades to get to 2.0? How many upgrades just to 1.1? Now, how many with my first Onkyo.

J6P at large doesn't have the ability or the desire to do this...most don't have high-speed internet. And if they do get high-speed internet....I suspect it will be used for a point and click download system not "fixing" a what in their minds will be a broken player. It's sad but the industry still doesn't get it. It's almost like with American cars there for a while. It is easier to get it right than repair a tarnished image.

All of the Profile 1.1 and 2.0 discs also clearly state that you need such a player to access these features. There is no difference.

Unfortunately, the average consumer wouldn't be able to tell you what BD Profile their new player has. They'll simply go back to the store and speak with the salesperson and tell them the new movie they bought doesn't play {insert feature here} and either will ask to replace the disc (only to discover it doesn't work either) or suddenly be informed after the fact that they're brand new BD Profile 1.0 player which they bought on the cheap won't play it. Lots of yelling and screaming will ensue, they will try to find the receipt (which is always thrown out or misplaced) and forced to bite the bullet and upgrade. 'nuff said.

I will address it as someone basing thier opinion on heresay. I take blog entries with a grain of salt as they neither speak officially for the organization or corporation or even the company they work for. It is their opinion only.

The blu-ray profiles was known from the get go, at least to the tech savvy folks such as the likes here. The ordinary citizen does not know and will not know until after the fact. Because you can bet your bottom dollar that the seller (BBY, TGT, etc) won't say "This player will not play EVERY feature on future blu-ray discs". They will close the sell.

I work in the electronics dept. of a large Sears store. I always explain the BD profile situation to anyone who comes in wanting to purchase a BD player, but most of my fellow salespeople are totally ignorant of it. I've had a number of folks take the free standalone that was offered with the Sharp LCD sets, but those who were actually going to pay for a BD player either decided to wait or got a PS3.

At least you actually have firmware upgrades now. There was no such thing for those early dvd players. In some cases you could ship it back to the manufacturer for an upgrade. And the rest of us just moved on and bought new players that were cheaper and better.

Most Americans have no high-speed internet to hook their box up to for an update!! Am I the only one that sees this as a big issue?

For the love of pete, going Hi-Def is getting more expensive all the time. Cost is such a central issue that I see folks just buying the tv and being happy with cable/ota or dvd upconversion.

If you go out and look for DVD complaints 2 years after they came out, you just won't find many. I looked. For the most partin the '98, '99 timeframe, you bought a disc, put it in the player and it played. People have gotten used to that, and that is the way it is going to have to get with Blu-Ray. Fixes and work-arounds and firmware upgrades will make Blu-Ray the American automobile of the technology race in HDM. Good Lord, can't they just get it right? :confused:

Do you know how many people pay attention to the Interactual features they can't watch? Thats exactly how many will pay attention to PiP and online.

Not when Sleeping Beauty comes out and all of its features are advertised everywhere.

Not when Sleeping Beauty comes out and all of its features are advertised everywhere.

How many people have an internet connection capable of accessing all of these features? For that matter, how many have a connection that can update their player? :o

True, but the reality here is that the firmware updates are much more prevalent. How many PS3 upgrades to get to 2.0? How many upgrades just to 1.1? Now, how many with my first Onkyo.

J6P at large doesn't have the ability or the desire to do this...most don't have high-speed internet. And if they do get high-speed internet....I suspect it will be used for a point and click download system not "fixing" a what in their minds will be a broken player.

And yet, they want to download ringtones or have a forum discussion/chat online through their player/disc. :rolleyes:

Brandon

I suppose you missed the part where I said this:



I notice you skipped over this in your reply. Would you care to tell me how this is different from the interactual features on DVD? No player ever tells you on the box that it can't use these features. I know you and Figgie have left the thread since all of your points have been debunked but still.


Actually I have better things to do than hang around here all day and evening, maybe you don't.
I did not skip that, and I did address that deflection as well. We are talking only about the movie playing not the special features such as PiP, downloadable content, or even the BD-Java games they might put on the disc.
The quote from the Sony manual does not state that you may not be able to access special features it states discs may not play. Just to make sure I even went to the Sony website and checked the wording. It is right there at the bottom of page 5 of the BDP-S300 and S301 manual. "Since the Blu-ray Disc specifications are new and evolving, some discs may not play depending on the type and the version."

I am done responding to you, all you do is continue to deflect and bring up issues that do not pertain to the discussion. If you want to claim some type of victory, go ahead because I am tired of repeating myself.

And yet, they want to download ringtones or have a forum discussion/chat online through their player/disc. :rolleyes:

Brandon

Ringtones can be easily downloaded using your phone. I'm not sure of the relevance. And online chatting has been a stable of the internet since the ubquity of the 56k modem with an AOL telephone connection. It has no relation to what I am saying.

Firmware updates aren't made by 56k modem cards, they use ethernet ports. As far as I know, ethernet ports used to connect to the internet require some type of broadband speed or it would just time out. My point is that the latest generation of players has required myriad number of updates and the mass market consumer needs it just to work, out of the box, the first time, and a high percentage of the time (better than 90%).

And if they don't just work and you need to do a bunch of "fixing" stuff, some CE will make a product that does "just work." This would be very much like how IPOD took over music downloading. There were other players out before Apple, but the IPOD just worked even though many would argue that other players were better in sound, etc. All I am saying is that the technology which is successful today just works...mass consumer doesn't care how or why, they just expect it to. :)

His point was that if someone can't figure out how to do a firmware update then they are not likely to be using online features such as we've seen on HDDVD, like buying ringtones and "community screening". Meaning no one will care about what profile their player is.


That's a valid point....now I will extend that rationale to its logical conclusion.

But my vantage is more expansive and my point is that for those that struggle with firmware updates or don't like doing update...the entire crop of players is NOT an option. To date, every single player (and the best one, the PS3) has required some type of update on occassion, and many folks simply do not have the option of broadband to update a player to get it to play. Because of this profile scheme, many will choose to forgoe HDM for a DVD that will just simply plug and play. That is all I am saying. I think we forget that it is easy for the tech savy...for my grandmother who is healthy and will likely live another 10 years....DVD is her pinnacle experience. She doesn't want anything to do with firmware or specs, it just has to work. ANd too often now, it doesn't.

Name one machine that I can purchase right now out of the store and give to a person without any broadband access that will play 97% of HDM [plug and play] - either side HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. To my knowledge, there is not one. It is not the online features we need to worry about...it is having players that plug and play!! :D

But you are confusing the issues. Firmware updates have nothing to do with BD Profiles. Otherwise HDDVD wouldn't need updates either with its supposed finished spec. Firmware updates are just due to general incompatibilities with discs, no matter what profile they are and no matter what format they are. But your point stands and I agree with it. Which is that the constant need for updating both formats will prevent average joes from adopting them. But it is not the Profile issue that is preventing them, which is the point of this thread.

But since we are all beta testing these formats right now maybe they will figure it out before mass adoption happens. ;) And who knows maybe your average joe will wise up too. Every new technology requires a learning curve.

I was simplifing the past several arguments made previously by lumping everything into a formatting scheme. The average consumer (my dad - 50 year old man) looks at it as all one issue. He sees that I need internet at broadband speeds to even get the thing to fully work, and further, if I want the benefit of my profiles I need internet...well, I can't get broadband internet...now what?

Several years into deployment and sales, there are still technical issues. Profiles will sit largely in the minds of consumers as part of those technical issues. Further, I believe that lumped in with that will be those firmware updates by folks that don't even have broadband access. This, to me, is at the very least problematic and has not been well-considered.

Firmware updates aren't made by 56k modem cards, they use ethernet ports. As far as I know, ethernet ports used to connect to the internet require some type of broadband speed or it would just time out. My point is that the latest generation of players has required myriad number of updates and the mass market consumer needs it just to work, out of the box, the first time, and a high percentage of the time (better than 90%).

Yes, I agree with what you're saying and you are correct in that I wasn't directly responding to your point. I was trying to illustrate the issue of what you're describing in another context.

My point is that, responding to what you said above, the type of people you're speaking of are the type of people that just want the movie to play. That's all. They want the movies they like, the highest video quality their hardware and budget will allow and ditto for audio.

So in short, it goes both ways. The topic of this thread is a general discussion of blu-ray profiles and predictably has strolled down the path of what J6P wants/needs/can understand. The argument can't be made the J6P isn't as technologically advanced as the early adopter and wants the cheapest thing around without it reasonably following that he also isn't interested in all of the features (read: bells and whistles) that the early adopters are clamoring for.

Brandon

Name one machine that I can purchase right now out of the store and give to a person without any broadband access that will play 97% of HDM [plug and play] - either side HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. To my knowledge, there is not one. It is not the online features we need to worry about...it is having players that plug and play!! :D

I agree with that to an extent, but I think there are already players out there capable of such. I guess I wouldn't know for sure unless I never updated my PS3 firmware, but I've never had a single problem with a disc to date. Other stand-alones on both sides have, and I acknowledge that.

Nevertheless, I get your point and I think it's one that we are both stressing but for different reasons. And I think this is exactly why Samsung is getting some bad PR right now. It's not about profiles or internet features, it's about the movies not being able to play.

Brandon

I agree with that to an extent, but I think there are already players out there capable of such. I guess I wouldn't know for sure unless I never updated my PS3 firmware, but I've never had a single problem with a disc to date. Other stand-alones on both sides have, and I acknowledge that.

Nevertheless, I get your point and I think it's one that we are both stressing but for different reasons. And I think this is exactly why Samsung is getting some bad PR right now. It's not about profiles or internet features, it's about the movies not being able to play.

Brandon

I totally agree with you regarding Samsung and its bad press. I think it has further implications however. I suspect that we will see some significant delays in the deployment of other players by op end manufacturers. Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony and others have big time reputations to protect. A tech snafu like Samsung's could bring the whole house of cards down, and they will conduct more testing to make sure there are no missteps with profiles.

I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think you could play every disc without updating your PS3. Further, I think it is important to note that getting consumers technically savy enough to know about profiles risks valuable time that BD just doesn't have to win against VOD/Apple TV/etc. Just because a good formula isn't there now for DD doesn't mean it won't come knocking. Rest on your laurels and you soon get passed in the world of tech. Of that much, we can be sure. BD get busy. :D

Most Americans have no high-speed internet to hook their box up to for an update!! Am I the only one that sees this as a big issue?

For the love of pete, going Hi-Def is getting more expensive all the time. Cost is such a central issue that I see folks just buying the tv and being happy with cable/ota or dvd upconversion.

If you go out and look for DVD complaints 2 years after they came out, you just won't find many. I looked. For the most partin the '98, '99 timeframe, you bought a disc, put it in the player and it played. People have gotten used to that, and that is the way it is going to have to get with Blu-Ray. Fixes and work-arounds and firmware upgrades will make Blu-Ray the American automobile of the technology race in HDM. Good Lord, can't they just get it right? :confused:


So they have the money for a HDTV and one of the few in the US with a HD player and yet have no high speed internet? Highly unlikely, the people with high speed internet far, far, far outweigh people with HD players.

There are lots of extra warnings these days in our lawsuit driven society. My 1st gen DVD player certainly needed such a warning since it does not play many discs. Should I sue Pioneer?

Funny, I had the DV-500 and had none of these issue. What discs did you have that wouldn't play?

How many people have an internet connection capable of accessing all of these features? For that matter, how many have a connection that can update their player? :o

I don't know how many HDTV households have internet access available in their main viewing area. Do you know? Does anyone here even have a clue what the number is now or what the future holds?

I don't know how many HDTV households have internet access available in their main viewing area. Do you know? Does anyone here even have a clue what the number is now or what the future holds?

I don't know how many HDTV households have 1080p sets either. The fact is.. they are building a format for the future. 10 more years. A lot can happen in 10 years and internet connectivity is where it's at.

Already almost anyone who owns a gaming console has a net connection (wireless or not) at the back of their TV.

As it stands, I will recommend nobody buy into Bluray until the profile 2.0 players are the standard. Until then, I will tell everyone I know to sit out (especially now that HD-DVD isn't an alternative).

So they have the money for a HDTV and one of the few in the US with a HD player and yet have no high speed internet? Highly unlikely, the people with high speed internet far, far, far outweigh people with HD players.


They probably have high speed internet in their homes but do they have it where their player is located? I think the answer to that for a very high percentage of people is no. Also burning firmware can be a bit too technical for the average consumer and they, for lack of a better term, are simply ignorant.
These forums are typically visited by people who have a better understanding of the technical issues surrounding things like buring firmware and BD profiles.

This is an interesting thread. One thing I find interesting in the retail stores is there isnt a single label telling you what profile the player is. The many HDTV+BD combo's over the holidays were profile 1.0 players attached to a 1000+ tv. I had to get a sales person to ask a manager who then looked it up somewhere to tell me the Samsung unit was profile 1.0 and I said no thanks.

But if I browse the hardware aisles none of them explain which profile the player will play. The backlash if any is deserved if the players wont do even the most basic function of playing the movie. And I dont think many people who got 1.0 players with their HDTV have any idea about profiles. So they didnt know what they were getting into.

Tha same can be said about DVD players incapable of playing certain disc types.

"Some CD-R/CD-RW discs may be incompatible due to laser pick-up and disc design. DVD-R discs recorded by DVD Video method can be played. Some DVD-R discs may be incompatible due to laser pick-up and disc design. WMA, MP3 and JPEG discs may be incompatible due to different recording format or condition of disc."

SOURCE (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=sd-6980)


And how about this disclosure in the HD DVD manual AFTER someone has bought the player. Why not put this in bold letters on top of the box ?

"Because HD DVD is a new format that makes use of new technologies, certain disc, digital connection and other compatibility and/or performance issues are possible.
This may, in rare cases, include disc freezing while accessing certain disc features or functions, or certain parts of the disc not playing back or operating as fully intended."

Yes this comes with every HD-DVD disc and it explains how to update your firmware. With HD-DVD players it is easy to update, plug it into an ethernet port and have it update. Though to date, I havent run across a movie that has required an updated firmware on my A2.

So they have the money for a HDTV and one of the few in the US with a HD player and yet have no high speed internet? Highly unlikely, the people with high speed internet far, far, far outweigh people with HD players.

You do know there are some places in this country where you can't get High Speed internet unless you want really expensive satellite internet. Like I tell the people who talk about digital downloads. Just because your a farmer and have 100 acres between you and the house next to you doesn't mean you wouldn't like to watch a movie when the sun goes down.

You do know there are some places in this country where you can't get High Speed internet unless you want really expensive satellite internet. Like I tell the people who talk about digital downloads. Just because your a farmer and have 100 acres between you and the house next to you doesn't mean you wouldn't like to watch a movie when the sun goes down.

I'm glad to see that someone recognizes the dilemma that advanced players face. Why go 2.0 when you aren't going to get highspeed internet or you have no possibility except for an expensive satellite connection?

It is a valid question, but few folks want to tackle tough questions on industry strategy. These are important because it determines uptick in interest and adoption trends. If someone in BD has a master gameplan, they might want to let the rest of the public in on it. :)

I just don't buy that..........
If that were the case there would be no lawsuit against Samsung right now.

I can't understand how anyone could believe that most people were fully aware of the limitations of 1.0 spec Bluray players and yet STILL chose to pay twice as much for that player over the HD DVD version.

I here the Panasonic BD50 will be the first 2.0 spec S/A player from Bluray in March and will retail for $999? Wasn't the very first Bluray player $999? Shouldn't prices be going down? I suppose for Bluray, full disc compatability is a "special feature" and should command a premium.

Let me ask you this: Have you seen those huge 5 disc versions of the LOTR movies? Can you imagine if that came out on BD how pissed people would be if they spent the big bucks for it only to find out later that ALL those extras can't be viewed with their 2 month old Bluray player?

That has never happened on DVD, but it is happening to Bluray and will only get worse.

I was under the impression the Samsung lawsuit stemmed from the inability to play the main movie, not extras. That's a huge problem and I think Samsung should get dragged into the pit.

You have two BD player demographics -
1. PS3 owners
Fortunately, the majority fall into this group. This may be 2.0 compliant, therefore a moot point.
2. Standalone owners
The vast majority of standalone owners are early adopters/enthusiasts, hence they should be aware of the climate. Maybe some people have no problem dropping $500-$1,200 on a CE that they don't fully understand, but I wouldn't. I do agree the marketing and packing materials should be better labeled, but in the end, it's your money. Would you run out and buy the first car that catches your eye - or do you do some homework? I feel no sympathy for this group that bought pre-2.0 players.

I don't know why it's so hard to fathom that BD owners might not care about 2.0 when many polls indicate the majority, at least around here, mostly just want the main feature, the extras are just that - extras.

Do you know how many people pay attention to the Interactual features they can't watch? Thats exactly how many will pay attention to PiP and online.

The problem is that the attraction of going with either HD format are the interactive features of PIP and online. These are being put front and center in the marketing. More people will know about it in the new format versus DVD.

One other thing...there were many BD hardware players out there that couldn't play '3:10 to Yuma' (BD Profile 1.1), so even a point step in the elusive BD standard broke many first (and second) gen players.

3:10 to Yuma is not a Profile 1.1 disc so your whole point goes out the window. There have been plenty of discs on both HDDVD and Blu-ray that required firmware updates. It has nothing to do with Profiles. I think this is about the 10th time I've said that in this thread.

Really? I suppose you haven't played any of the PIP items and pop-up scripts/storyboards while the movie is playing. Try that on a BD Profile 1.0 player.

HAHA. Did you even read the article? HINT: Its 9 years old and talking about well known issues with DVDs.

Heres a link to the Wired piece:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1999/09/31560


Snippet from the article that strikes me as the most important issue at hand:

"Hunt said that sources within DVD mastering houses have told him that every DVD player on the market is in one way or another not fully up to the DVD technology specification. DVD software vendors are further complicating things by pushing their titles to do more PC interactivity. Hunt said many early generation DVD players simply weren't developed with these technologies in mind."

Can this be said about blu-ray players on the market today? If all blu-ray players work according to spec we should not see profile issues materialize since according to the specs, a 1.1 disc will still allow the main feature to play in a 1.0 player. That's a lot of ifs, though and not a lot of certainty. How many 1.1 discs exist, how many of them have issues with 1.0 players? Which players? Will 2.0 discs present different problems?