hey guys. i am running psb alpha t1's and psb alpha c1 for front stage. i would LOVE to buy the av123 mfw-15, or epik knight/caliber - but i really do not feel like waiting another 2 months to make a subwoofer purchase.

i can get the psb SubSeries 6i for $560 delivered. i am a little flexible on budget but want to order today or tomorrow and want to buy something that is in stock.

the svs pb12-nsd appears to be available at $656 delivered.
the hsu vtf-3 mk3 for $799 delivered (doesn't seem worth the money).
i have also looked at some of the dayton DIY kits at parts express.

need some input. right now the psb 6i is at the top of the list - as i know i will have it quickly and the price is low.

Please read the sticky at the top of this forum and re-post your question.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=989316

How can anyone offer advice if they know nothing of your requirements?

What makes you say that the VFT3-MKIII is not worth the money? I own an older VFT3-MKII and VFT3-MKI and I'm still enjoying them.

I have a HSU 3.3 Turbo & MBM-12 and it fills my 6000 cubic foot room.

Bill

based on my research and craigsub ratings the hsu seems overpriced for the performance when compared to the av123 mfw-15 and epik offerings - i'd rather spend less and get less w/ the PSB 6i then spend $800 knowing I could have had better for the same money if I waited.

It's you money and you can do whatever you want. You said that you have done your research already so what else are you waiting for?

hey guys. i am running psb alpha t1's and psb alpha c1 for front stage. i would LOVE to buy the av123 mfw-15, or epik knight/caliber - but i really do not feel like waiting another 2 months to make a subwoofer purchase.

i can get the psb SubSeries 6i for $560 delivered. i am a little flexible on budget but want to order today or tomorrow and want to buy something that is in stock.

the svs pb12-nsd appears to be available at $656 delivered.
the hsu vtf-3 mk3 for $799 delivered (doesn't seem worth the money).
i have also looked at some of the dayton DIY kits at parts express.

need some input. right now the psb 6i is at the top of the list - as i know i will have it quickly and the price is low.

If your application is HT I recommend PB12-NSD. It was even improved for music. Based on the improved Pb12 it meets or beats VT3-mk3.

hey guys. i am running psb alpha t1's and psb alpha c1 for front stage. i would LOVE to buy the av123 mfw-15, or epik knight/caliber - but i really do not feel like waiting another 2 months to make a subwoofer purchase.

i can get the psb SubSeries 6i for $560 delivered. i am a little flexible on budget but want to order today or tomorrow and want to buy something that is in stock.

the svs pb12-nsd appears to be available at $656 delivered.
the hsu vtf-3 mk3 for $799 delivered (doesn't seem worth the money).
i have also looked at some of the dayton DIY kits at parts express.

need some input. right now the psb 6i is at the top of the list - as i know i will have it quickly and the price is low.

For HT I'd say the PB12-NSD is your best "in-stock" option at the moment if you consider price/performance.

based on my research and craigsub ratings the hsu seems overpriced for the performance when compared to the av123 mfw-15 and epik offerings - i'd rather spend less and get less w/ the PSB 6i then spend $800 knowing I could have had better for the same money if I waited.

Don't get too consumed with all the hoopla around the "forum fav's". There's lots of capable subs out there at various price points. IMO, there's more to it than just boiling it down to a point per dollar analysis...different sizes, different finishes, different extension...

That said, even if your only criteria was low end extension, you're comparing a PSB sub that hits down to 29Hz (according to their website--is that a typo?) vs two subs that are tuned to 18Hz. For an HT application...I'd consider that to be a pretty significant difference.

Just my 2c.


Scott

i'm not sure what the deal w/ the spec of 29hz on the website is

sound and vision liked the 6i
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/663/seismic-subs-page9.html

they claim 94db @ 20hz

and i listen to just as much music as i do movie material.

...it meets or beats VT3-mk3.

That's not true, especially in terms of frequency response linearity. When we measured the -3 Mk3 outside with all radiating surfaces equidistant from mic, the frequency response was +/- 1db from 15-200Hz in extended bass mode, and +/- 1db from 20-200Hz in max output mode :)

That's not true, especially in terms of frequency response linearity. When we measured the -3 Mk3 outside with all radiating surfaces equidistant from mic, the frequency response was +/- 1db from 15-200Hz in extended bass mode, and +/- 1db from 20-200Hz in max output mode :)

Impressive numbers!

My impression is that both the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3 MK3 are great performers that are too easily forgotten in the influx of subs from young companies. Ultimately, I would be thrilled with either sub. My opinion was that for strictly HT applications, the PB12-NSD might have a small advantage in the price/performance category with regard to sheet slam and depth. That said, I don't doubt the VTF-3 MK3 might be slightly more linear. Again, both are great subs that are too often overlooked in favor of the "new kids on the block," IMO.

i'm not sure what the deal w/ the spec of 29hz on the website is

sound and vision liked the 6i
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/663/seismic-subs-page9.html

they claim 94db @ 20hz

and i listen to just as much music as i do movie material.

That number was from Noussaine's tests. Just to compare, he got these max output (10% THD limited) for the other subs as well:

PSB Subsonic 6i
25 - 62 Hz average is 108db and it can hit 94db at 20Hz.

HSU VTF3-MKIII Turbo
25 - 62Hz average is 105db and it can hit 93db at 20 Hz

SVS PB12-NSD
25 - 62Hz average is 106db and it can hit 96db at 25Hz
However, he tested an older iteration of this subwoofer.

check Hometheatreshack for ikka's tests on latest version of PB12-NSD

check Hometheatreshack for ikka's tests on latest version of PB12-NSD

Because they use two different environments, it would hard to directly compare Noussaine's numbers to Ilkka's numbers.

That number was from Noussaine's tests. Just to compare, he got these max output (10% THD limited) for the other subs as well:

PSB Subsonic 6i
25 - 62 Hz average is 108db and it can hit 94db at 20Hz.

HSU VTF3-MKIII Turbo
25 - 62Hz average is 105db and it can hit 93db at 20 Hz

SVS PB12-NSD
25 - 62Hz average is 106db and it can hit 96db at 25Hz
However, he tested an older iteration of this subwoofer.

am i missing something - or does that place the psb 6i well against the competition

That number was from Noussaine's tests. Just to compare, he got these max output (10% THD limited) for the other subs as well:

PSB Subsonic 6i
25 - 62 Hz average is 108db and it can hit 94db at 20Hz.

HSU VTF3-MKIII Turbo
25 - 62Hz average is 105db and it can hit 93db at 20 Hz

SVS PB12-NSD
25 - 62Hz average is 106db and it can hit 96db at 25Hz
However, he tested an older iteration of this subwoofer.

Based on those numbers, it would seem to be a bit more of an interesting comparison. I'm kind of surprised that PSB would post such conservative numbers on their website....but I have to admit, I find that kind of refreshing.

IIRC, wasn't there something weird about the 20Hz number for the 3.3 WITH Turbo in that test? It performed similar if not better @16Hz than it did at 20Hz? I suppose that would be in line with what Pete was saying...

Maybe it was the Ilkka test...maybe I'm just hallucinating....


Scott

am i missing something - or does that place the psb 6i well against the competition

I would say that the PSB holds it own against SVS and HSU. I am guessing that the SVS and HSU will go deeper with authority.

Keep in mind that these measurements represent a part of the picture.

Based on those numbers, it would seem to be a bit more of an interesting comparison. I'm kind of surprised that PSB would post such conservative numbers on their website....but I have to admit, I find that kind of refreshing.

IIRC, wasn't there something weird about the 20Hz number for the 3.3 WITH Turbo in that test? It performed similar if not better @16Hz than it did at 20Hz? I suppose that would be in line with what Pete was saying...

Maybe it was the Ilkka test...maybe I'm just hallucinating....


Scott

According to Noussaine's test the HSU 3.3 with turbo hit 83db at 16Hz.

Here are a list of subwoofers that he has tested: http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

Just to reiterate, Noussaine's testing methodology is different from Ilkka's and they are conducted in a different environment. Their results are not directly comparable. Noussaine does his testing in a 7500 cubic foot room and his maximum output measurements are with a 10% THD limit.

Ilkka does his measurements outdoors and IIRC, his maximum output measurements are not THD limited. He reports THD separately.

According to Noussaine's test the HSU 3.3 with turbo hit 83db at 16Hz.

Well...that would qualify as a hallucination on my part then.


Scott

so are we in conclusion that the psb holds its own against the other subs? it does seem that the hsu can dig down deep to 16hz - but it is also $240 bucks more!

Scott, I think what you might be recalling is that the VTF-3 Mk3 max output mode numbers were strange, because the 25-62Hz output was 2 or 3db lower than max extension mode, which is clearly not right. The reason had to have been due to mic placement at the front face of the sub, which seriously gives a disadvantage for a deep rear-ported subwoofer.

The -3 Mk3 in max output mode should have 2-3db higher THD-limited output from 25-62Hz compared to max extension mode (with turbo or with port plugged).

Impressive numbers!

My impression is that both the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3 MK3 are great performers that are too easily forgotten in the influx of subs from young companies. Ultimately, I would be thrilled with either sub. My opinion was that for strictly HT applications, the PB12-NSD might have a small advantage in the price/performance category with regard to sheet slam and depth. That said, I don't doubt the VTF-3 MK3 might be slightly more linear. Again, both are great subs that are too often overlooked in favor of the "new kids on the block," IMO.

Thanks for the kind words! Regarding slam, I think that the -3 Mk3 in max output mode should more than hold it's own with respect to slam and impact in the 20-80Hz range. Also, it doesn't have a rolled off deep bass response like the competitive model. And in max output mode with dual 4" ports open, port turbulence-related noise will almost never be an issue too. These are all things to keep in mind.

Scott, I think what you might be recalling is that the VTF-3 Mk3 max output mode numbers were strange, because the 25-62Hz output was 2 or 3db lower than max extension mode, which is clearly not right. The reason had to have been due to mic placement at the front face of the sub, which seriously gives a disadvantage for a deep rear-ported subwoofer.

The -3 Mk3 in max output mode should have 2-3db higher THD-limited output from 25-62Hz compared to max extension mode (with turbo or with port plugged).

Aha. That's it...so...good news is I wasn't hallucinating...bad news is I was just talking about the wrong numbers. I remembered there being something screwy, just couldn't remember what exactly it was. I'm not nuts...I'm just an idiot. Thanks Pete...I think.

Just for the sake of full disclosure, I use an older VTF-3.2 and find it to have plenty of impact in the 20-60Hz region. Not sure how it compares to the SVS or PSB or the current sub forum darlings...but it's a very capable sub. Consistent with what Pete is saying, I also find it to be pretty much flat to 15Hz in room (call it -3dB somewhere between 14-15Hz). Not that the others aren't good examples...but in my experience HSU is a good example of what good engineering will get you.

To the OP, if it were me and I was looking for predominantly HT, I'd probably go with the one that cleanly digs deepest. You don't want to put on that Lightning Strike scene in War of the Worlds and think...what the hell are they talking about? There's no bass there at all...


Scott

i ordered the psb 6i - it should hold me over until i can get my hands on one of the "forum darlings"

based on my research and craigsub ratings the hsu seems overpriced for the performance when compared to the av123 mfw-15 and epik offerings - i'd rather spend less and get less w/ the PSB 6i then spend $800 knowing I could have had better for the same money if I waited.

Dual MFW's or an Epik Tower would easily outpace the Hsu.

Many new sub companies have sprung up lately and have been reviewed favorably on the net.

It seems like well established companies like Hsu are not getting their due from some. Hsu subs have received universally good reviews with many positive reviews from the pros especially for the VTF-3 MK III.

I purchased the sub in December (I did not want to wait either) and have been very happy with it. In my 21 X 13 foot room, I only have to turn the knob up to 9 o'clock and I have enough bass to get the job done. I do not see the need to replace it just because the MFW-15 or another sub like it may have outperformed it in Craigsubs list (Love the list btw). Do I really need a more powerful sub when the Hsu is more than powerful itself?

That is the question you have to ask yourself. If you are willing to wait and don't mind that there have not been many professional reviews of the new subs, then you have other choices beyond the Hsu. If you want the sub now, the Hsu is an excellent choice. I very much doubt once you hear and experience it for yourself, you will feel like you are missing anything at all.

The VMPS Larger Subwoofer starts at $699 and tops out at $839 with upgraded drivers.

The VMPS Larger Subwoofer is highly under rated.


Distortion is 0.5% with a 1 watt input and sensitivity is 92 dB with 1 watt input.

This sub can reproduce maximum undistorted output levels of 115 dB+ @ 1m at 20 Hz with 2.5% distortion. The -3 dB point is 17 Hz and it is 0 dB down at 20 Hz.


Most high end subwoofers can only play 100 dB, or less, at 20 Hz and are usually over 10% distortion.


NASA's Langley Research Center purchased two Larger VMPS Subwoofers as a source of 118+ dB, 20 Hz tone bursts. The Larger Subwoofer was the only commercially available system in the world capable of so doing.

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/subwoofers.htm


This is a very musical sub that will play fast and deep with lots of impact and low distortion.

Probably one of the best kept secrets out there.

Here are some comparison charts showing what some HIGHLY regarded subs are capable of in comparison, remember the VMPS will play over 115 dB @ 20 Hz and over 112 dB @ 17 Hz with very low distortion...

http://www.earthquakesound.com/supernova15.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

Also for comparison the Elemental Designs A7-900 plays 113.5 dB @ 20 Hz.

And here are some reviews. Look at the subs that this sub is replacing in their systems...

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/vmps/PRD_120738_2741crx.aspx

I own one and the sound is truly amazing.

Don't get too consumed with all the hoopla around the "forum fav's". There's lots of capable subs out there at various price points. IMO, there's more to it than just boiling it down to a point per dollar analysis...different sizes, different finishes, different extension...

Ditto on the above and please read my post on the JBL L8400 ..I kid you not :)

I wouldnt even trust "professional" reviews on various sites as much as I trust Craig's. If theres nothing to miss with a midrange sub why are there $2k+ subs and people buying multiples of them for relatively small rooms? Is it just that some people like to make their ears bleed? I don't know.
But yeah when a person can't stand the wait, hsu/svs seem to be among the best choices. Another option would be mwf-15 in moho for $700+$100 shipping. Thats an extra $100 for wooden finish, not as much of a bargain as the black one.

well - i've had the 6i in my possession for a few days now. overall i'm pretty impressed. i still wish i had more head room - so i will still probably upgrade to a epik or av123 subwoofer when they are finally available without a 2 month wait. this subwoofer would probably satisfy most people.

the 6i will most definitely hold me over until then!

well - i've had the 6i in my possession for a few days now. overall i'm pretty impressed. i still wish i had more head room - so i will still probably upgrade to a epik or av123 subwoofer when they are finally available without a 2 month wait. this subwoofer would probably satisfy most people.

the 6i will most definitely hold me over until then!

Just out of curiosity, did you properly place and calibrate your subwoofer? Did you also measure it's frequency response. If what you are hearing is room related (e.g. you have a huge null at 40 - 50 Hz), then getting a larger or more powerful subwoofer may not be the solution.

it is currently corner loaded - and i ran the multieq xt calibration that my denon avr-3808ci has built in - but haven't gone any further.

the room is of decent size and is open to the rest of the apartment - so i think i need rather substantial low end to pressurize the room. i also think the fact the floor is tile on top of concrete slab is working against me.

what would be the best method for measuring the frequency response? (at reasonable cost)

i do feel like i might have a null in the higher frequencies - and it probably is room related.

I noticed an epik kinght in the ads today. MFW-15 also.

I noticed an epik kinght in the ads today. MFW-15 also.
Saw that too, as long as warranty is transferrable in case of any amp problems, I see no problem with buying slightly used. For the MFW-15 though, there is a current sale going over at AV123 (hint, hint).