I have been enjoying the some-what higher end of audio since I got an Onkyo 805, Panny 50PZ77U, and 7.1 set-up of PSB Image speakers for HT use. I went to Circuit City and it was like finding a needle in a haystack for a SACD... While I havent followed the hi-rez audio trend...I do remember roughly when it started and CC started carrying the discs. Finally found one I could see myself listening to, Herbie Hancock "Head Hunters" Multi-ch SACD. I get home and pop it in my PS3...nothing!... a quick google search reluctantly discovers my 40GB PS3 doesnt support SACD :mad: :mad: :mad: but other PS3 versions do!
Now I'm all fired up to get some sort of SACD player worked into my system...and I was thinking, might as well bring DVD-A into the fold also.

So my questions are:
From early to recent adopters, what trend have you seen in hi-rez audio? It doesnt seem the general retailers are pushing it to your average consumer. I really thought after Acura put DVD-A in the TL, other manufacturers would follow.
Has sales and availability been steadily increasing, hobbling along, or falling off? Do you think the new advancements in Hi-Def movie audio such as Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA and the greater affordability of equipment that can accurately process it will spur newcomers to seek out dvd-a/sacd too?
Should I try and find an used PS3 (20GB- supports SACD) or go with an Oppo?
Since I am only interested in hi-rez audio, will the lower priced DV-980H suffice? I already have PS3 as mentioned and a shiba HD-A2.
Help me out, now that I have been to the movie theater from my couch... its time I go to a concert/live show from the same spot.

I went to Circuit City and it was like finding a needle in a haystack for a SACD... No surprise.

From early to recent adopters, what trend have you seen in hi-rez audio? It doesnt seem the general retailers are pushing it to your average consumer. I really thought after Acura put DVD-A in the TL, other manufacturers would follow.
Has sales and availability been steadily increasing, hobbling along, or falling off? Falling off.

Do you think the new advancements in Hi-Def movie audio such as Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA and the greater affordability of equipment that can accurately process it will spur newcomers to seek out dvd-a/sacd too?Doubtful. The market for hi-rez audio-only is too small.

Since I am only interested in hi-rez audio, will the lower priced DV-980H suffice? Why not? Especially if you can use the HDMI output!!! See: http://stereophile.com/musicintheround/108mitr/

DVD Audio is pretty much dead. When was the last new release?

SACD will likely survive as niche format. There are new releases steadily trickling out with classical music and probably jazz too.

Check out www.sa-cd.net for all the latest information about SACD.

No surprise.

Falling off.

Doubtful. The market for hi-rez audio-only is too small.

Why not? Especially if you can use the HDMI output!!! See: http://stereophile.com/musicintheround/108mitr/

yes... it seems the 805 supports it.... correct me if im wrong... it supports the 96/24 and DSD over HDMI? I will read the link you provided. thanks for your multi-reply... it will be really disheartening to invest in the Oppo with dying formats.... I'm already knocked to my knees with the HD-A2 purchase...but only for $100 @ Wally world. I did some searching on avs...and found someone mentioned elusivedisc[dot]com for some decent selection. Any other sites for DVD-A/SACD wide selection would be helpful. Thanks and Thank you Kal

DVD Audio is pretty much dead. When was the last new release?

SACD will likely survive as niche format. There are new releases steadily trickling out with classical music and probably jazz too.

Check out www.sa-cd.net for all the latest information about SACD.

with DVD-A dead...now I am even more upset I just didnt get a 60 or 80GB PS3 with SACD support... :mad: could have saved coin AND space! :rolleyes:

Before deciding, go to www.sa-cd.net and look at the offerings. If there are enough to interest you, go with it and get the Oppo. I have >1000 SACDs and, even if the medium dies, I will always have a player to enjoy them. So far, imho, there ain't nothing better.

DVD-A is not dead[yet]Porcupine Tree has their Lightbulb Sun DVD-A coming out in April btw[and i'll bet there'll be more PT discs in the future as well].And maybe some King Crimson DVD-A'S coming at some point[fingers crossed].

I'm hoping to see some new jazz sacd's from 50s and 60s recordings. Seems like there is a lot coming on vinyl. I hope that someone tests the waters with sacd versions.

At the present...Where do you see DVD-A SACD heading?

Down and under! (No, not to Australia!) :D

Before deciding, go to www.sa-cd.net and look at the offerings. If there are enough to interest you, go with it and get the Oppo. I have >1000 SACDs and, even if the medium dies, I will always have a player to enjoy them. So far, imho, there ain't nothing better.
I did quickly find a handful of discs I know I would enjoy...and I already have the Herbie Hancock disc [congrats to his 2008 AotY Grammy]

DVD-A is not dead[yet]Porcupine Tree has their Lightbulb Sun DVD-A coming out in April btw[and i'll bet there'll be more PT discs in the future as well].And maybe some King Crimson DVD-A'S coming at some point[fingers crossed].

You seem to be correct to a point. A DVD-A browse @ musicdirect[dot]com shows 6 discs due for March 08 release. Thanks kev!

The funny thing with DVD-Audio is that the odd "big" mainstream title is trickling out.

LOTR soundtracks, Beatles Love...And Now this Ringo CD/DVD-Audio release.
If it was truly dead these titles wouldn't continue to come out. And as someone pointed out above, there are some interesting and potentially exciting releases coming out.

I don't think it's dead. I think it's just hanging in there, there's a little rumbling of interest for it

It's downloads that will replace both DVD-A and SACD in the long run anyway. Linnrecords, Music giants, iTrax, sites like those are indicating the future of hi-res audio.

DVD Audio is pretty much dead. When was the last new release?

SACD will likely survive as niche format. There are new releases steadily trickling out with classical music and probably jazz too.

Check out www.sa-cd.net for all the latest information about SACD.

This week (11th February) Bsss communion Pacfic Codex

Also looking forward to Ringo 5.1 in march and Porcupine Tree Lightbulb sun in April.

AIX keep releaseing stuff.

It may be close to expired but its still bumbeling along

So i see DVD-A as very much a niche almost a hobby market.

Neil Wilkes a regular contributer to this site will tell you its a lot cheaper that SACD because of licenecing costs. I have seen on CD Baby's web site a number of very good self produced DVD-A's.

If people are willing to keep producing then i am happy to buy. the price can go up and i am sure it will a bit but a small number of regular releases suits my pocket better anyway.

I love playing multi channel SACD's in my PT Cruiser on my Sony MEX-DV2000. It also plays the multi channel DVD-A disks as DD and DTS and high resolution audio on the few audio DVD's out there. Recently I considered purchasing a new Honda Accord or one of a few other vehicles but none would offer multi channel playback nor would the MEX-DV2000 fit, so I'm keeping my PT Cruiser for now.

it will remain a niche till they are gone sadly.

Lets not forget the excellent stuff coming out of AIX records. I belive there is enough material out there to justify picking up a universal player especially if multichannel is of interest to you.

Has sales and availability been steadily increasing, hobbling along, or falling off?

I don't think RIAA knows what they're doing when trying count hi-rez sales using its Soundscan system. Apparently, RIAA only counts single-layer SACDs as SACD; hybrids are counted as regular CD :eek: It doesn't help that titles such as the Rolling Stones SACD has the same UPC numbers as the later DSD-remastered CD version.

As for availablilty. I crunched some numbers on SACD based on titles added to sa-cd.net....

2004 - 891 (excluding January 2004)
2005 - 806
2006 - 757
2007 - 744

Yes, there's certainly a downward trend in titles released. However, there are a number of SACD titles not represented on sa-cd.net....such as some of the Isomike titles. Given the fall in music sales on physical media, I actually think SACD is doing quite good. You may not like the music released on SACD, but the format is surviving nicely even without much help from the major labels.

I've slowed down my purchase of hi-res audio, largely owing to cost. Not that it has gotten suddenly too expensive, but rather because my latest "toy", an HD DVD player, has been gaining software and I'm in a position to buy a fair amount of one or some of each and the latter is the option I've selected lately. There are still many, many available titles in SACD, especially, that interest me but I am a bit annoyed that some are OOP (and many more DVD-As that I want are also OOP). I have enough hi-res to make my hi-res audio player a worthwhile part of my gear, but my initial hopes for hi-res audio (particularly MCH) have not been met.

Since I am only interested in hi-rez audio, will the lower priced DV-980H suffice?

the lower priced 980H is the audio machine (as opposed to its 981 video-tuned sibling)


on a somewhat related note, please let me know via the link in my sig if you guys hear of any DVD-A releases

Thanks everyone... Your posts gave me the confidence to pull the trigger on an Oppo 980...Fedex delivery next Thursday. In the meantime, I'll visit some of the websites of the mentioned retailers and studios. Multichannel surround music... should be fun.

No surprise.

Falling off.

Doubtful. The market for hi-rez audio-only is too small.



I agree that SACD/DVD-a wont be bringing any new comers to Hi-rez audio. However I fully hope (clicks heals together three times) That Bluray opens up hi-rez audio to new comers. The Dave Matthews Tim Reynolds Bluray concert, audio matches that of any SACD that I've ever heard. To bad it's just two guys playing guitar on stage.I would LOVE to hear how DMB sounds on a LPCM or Tru HD track.

This week (11th February) Bsss communion Pacfic Codex

Also looking forward to Ringo 5.1 in march and Porcupine Tree Lightbulb sun in April.

AIX keep releaseing stuff.

It may be close to expired but its still bumbeling along

So i see DVD-A as very much a niche almost a hobby market.

Neil Wilkes a regular contributer to this site will tell you its a lot cheaper that SACD because of licenecing costs. I have seen on CD Baby's web site a number of very good self produced DVD-A's.

If people are willing to keep producing then i am happy to buy. the price can go up and i am sure it will a bit but a small number of regular releases suits my pocket better anyway.

I'm grateful for all these releases, but I have my doubts about whether this will be able to continue. I was both thrilled and slightly worried when I heard about the potential King Crimson DVD-As: KC are loved by many and their catalogue being re-released in surround would be an incentive for quite a lot of fans to purchase the needed equipment, but only if this equipment's not too hard to find. If I hadn't run into DVD-A by coincidence because I'm a fan of Steven Wilson's work, I wouldn't have known this format existed. And even now I know it exists, it's ridiculously hard to get a DVD-A player (other than buying one online). Good thing there's such a thing as eac3to and FLAC or I wouldn't even be able to listen to my DVD-As at all.

My point is, DVD-A is pretty much dead. It may hang around for a while as a small niche, but it won't be resurrected and pushed into the mainstream, ever. It's just too damn hard to find the equipment you need. And it's not likely at all manufacturers will magickally start supporting DVD-A in their upcoming players.

This is a shame as surround music could be a whole revolution if only people would try it. But sticking to DVD-A or SACD won't help us get anywhere. I say switch to Blu-Ray and its HD audio formats right now and have consumers discover the wonders of HD music along with their favorite movies on the Blu-Ray player they'll almost certainly be buying somewhere in these next few years. Release stuff people will actually have access to easily (and market it well) and it may all get off the ground. Sticking to DVD-A (or SACD) will just drive surround music deeper into the niche.

There's always the problem of the production cost of Blu-Ray vs those for DVD-A, of course, and I obviously don't have a solution to that. Just throwing in my thoughts on the matter.

So in reply to the OP: DVD-A is my format of choice for the moment, so if you really want to get into the whole surround music business I'd go for an universal player like the Oppo. However, I have no hope that DVD-A and SACD will do anything but decline further. I fervently hope Blu-Ray will offer an alternative that will reach more people, but it's much too early to tell...

I agree that SACD/DVD-a wont be bringing any new comers to Hi-rez audio. However I fully hope (clicks heals together three times) That Bluray opens up hi-rez audio to new comers. The Dave Matthews Tim Reynolds Bluray concert, audio matches that of any SACD that I've ever heard. To bad it's just two guys playing guitar on stage.I would LOVE to hear how DMB sounds on a LPCM or Tru HD track.Agreed. My most impressive, though brief, demo is the Copland/SFSO snippet on the Dolby TrueHD demo disc. We need more!!

I drive Acuras so I'm happy to see the upcoming (April) 09 TSX is adding DVD-A. The current TL, MDX, RDX, and RL and updated upcoming 09 RL will have it too. works for me. I think the TSX is their biggest seller and it's significant they added it for 09. they play DTS too.

Yeah, you know as a hi-res surround lover, I'm very happy that we at least have blu-ray to titillate our ears with some 24-bit goodness...even if it's not quite 'music'. There are some pretty amazing movie mixes out there... AND, call me crazy, but I'm never going to let that mysterious audio-only "Blu-ray Profile 3" leave the back of my mind. Sony might have left that profile option open for reattempting a hi-res CD format, and with blu-ray's success I actually hope they do.

SACD is unreasonable for the consumer. Too much cost to produce => too expensive to buy, and too limited in playback options (among other annoyances). And since BD is backupable, and play-in-a-PC'able (HTPC people), I'd welcome it from Sony. There's no way they could possibly screw up a Blu-Cd format like they did with their SACD attempt.

One thing's for sure, hi-res "sound" is not going to leave us, it is not going to diminish. Certain formats might, but we do have blu-ray, we do have downloads (which doesn't have the cost risk that physical formats do) and you never know what's going to happen with a 'Blu-CD" format one day. C'mon, it's Sony - they'll probably try it. :cool:

We've just finished our Chamber Music Palisades - Shostakovich, Debussy and Brockman project and plan at least another 10 releases this year.

Maybe it's my stubborn nature...but I'm constantly asked to keep doing what we do. I just returned from 4 days in Tucson demoing on a $250,000 McIntosh system and a room with Anthem and B&W 803Ds and people were amazed. The last guy that came in the room told me he thought SACD's were the best he'd ever expected...until he heard native HD Audio in 96/24 PCM. I'm not giving up.

The iTrax.com web site is offering REAL HD Audio downloads and is doing very well. I have a number of artists and labels that will be transcoding their DSD recordings to 96 kHz/24-bit PCM to make them available.

I'm not giving up.

We certainly hope not!!

I wish more labels would put out more surround music

Dr. AIX, thank you!

Chamber music, to me, is the most rewarding, intimate, enjoyable and special form of music. The next best thing to playing with musician friends yourself (as I do), or listening close by as a friend and music-lover, is DVD-Audio.
It beats listening to the Tokyo String Quartet in Carnegie Hall, because chamber music was meant to be enjoyed in a room, like when Haydn, Dittersdorf, Mozart and Vanhal played quartets together. It is something best enjoyed among friends, among musicians and music-lovers, in a house. Not from a distance.

So thank you, I look forward to seeing what AIX releases this year! Help keep the true "format" that lives within DVD-Audio alive - 24-bit 96kHz surround. And I'm glad to see more records being converted to downloads - especially DSD ones.

I drive Acuras so I'm happy to see the upcoming (April) 09 TSX is adding DVD-A. The current TL, MDX, RDX, and RL and updated upcoming 09 RL will have it too. works for me. I think the TSX is their biggest seller and it's significant they added it for 09. they play DTS too.

And along those lines....I just read in Car Audio that Sony has released a new Dual Din In dash CD/DVD/ SACD player for the aftermarket stereo market. Sony XAV-W1. It seem Sony still isnt giving up on SACD as they continue to relase new products with SACD in them...:confused:

Riiight, Sony has long ago abondoned this format, mostly from the software POV. Yes they still come out with hardware, because it's very easy to add to disc players that they would release anyway. These formats are on life support from the small labels like AIX, and the classical "arms" of the some of the major ones. The fact that viny still outsells these combined, tells a story of it's own and one need not elaborate any further of the state of these formats. I've been a collector for over 5 years, but there is no need deny the fact there isn't much to pick from that isn't classical music.

. I've been a collector for over 5 years, but there is no need deny the fact there isn't much to pick from that isn't classical music.

:mad: You said it, I cant find Beck-Sea Change, David Bowie-Heathen, Kraftwerk-Maximum Minimum, and a number of other well-done MCs anywhere!
Guess I'll be culling my local CircuitCitys for gems amongst the other regular CDs. :rolleyes:

:mad: You said it, I cant find Beck-Sea Change, David Bowie-Heathen, Kraftwerk-Maximum Minimum, and a number of other well-done MCs anywhere!
Guess I'll be culling my local CircuitCitys for gems amongst the other regular CDs. :rolleyes:

I seriously doubt you'll find anything worthwhile at Circuit City. Besides, the Kraftwerk SACDs weren't released in the US. You may have to go overseas for that....

Kraftwerk-Maximum Minimum SACD (http://www.hifi-cd.com/en/product/item/8051/product_detail.html)

Riiight, Sony has long ago abondoned this format, mostly from the software POV. Yes they still come out with hardware, because it's very easy to add to disc players that they would release anyway.

I think it's the other way around. Besides the PS3, Sony hasn't released any new SACD capable hardware in a long time. Meanwhile, Sony Music has released some more classical SACD titles and announced another "re-performance" SACD for this year. While a completely separate company from Sony/BMG, Japan Sony Music has released over 20 SACD titles in the half of 2007....including those from Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, and Leonard Bernstein.

I seriously doubt you'll find anything worthwhile at Circuit City. Besides, the Kraftwerk SACDs weren't released in the US. You may have to go overseas for that....

Kraftwerk-Maximum Minimum SACD (http://www.hifi-cd.com/en/product/item/8051/product_detail.html)

For cc try their on-line store thats where i got half of mine.

You may have to go overseas for that....

Wow, that's dedicated. :p

I think it's the other way around. Besides the PS3, Sony hasn't released any new SACD capable hardware in a long time. .

I just pointed out that Sony DID release new hardware. Not only that. It's on the Mobile side of the house, an In car SACD/DVD/CD player. Maybe they have some leftover SACD chips they are trying to get rid of and threw them in the PS3 and this new Car SACD player. I dunno know WHAT they are doing. Where was this in car SACD player when I was building my mobile stereo 4 years ago??
And along those lines....I just read in Car Audio that Sony has released a new Dual Din In dash CD/DVD/ SACD player for the aftermarket stereo market. Sony XAV-W1. It seem Sony still isnt giving up on SACD as they continue to relase new products with SACD in them...

well, it's almost the end of february. i wish "i wish you were here" were here. but i'm guessing that's a pipe dream now.

Vinyl records were dead also, until the current revival.

I will not support a high end Blu-Ray player unless it is truly universal (SACD / DVD Audio). Just a basic player will suit me.

Well, hopefully Oppo retains SACD/DVD-A capability in their BD player. Denon has also said they are going to put SACD/DVDA back in in their second generation BD players

Wow, that's dedicated. :p

LOL yes. However, SACD is more popular overseas, especially in Asia, than in the US. And I go where the titles are. For example, just received yesterday in the mail, the SACD of "New York City" by the Peter Malick Group featuring Norah Jones (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/3124). The SACD was purchased on (I think) a UK website but it was send from Germany. The SACD was released by American label Koch, but it was only released in Taiwan. :eek:

I'm hoping to see some new jazz sacd's from 50s and 60s recordings. Seems like there is a lot coming on vinyl. I hope that someone tests the waters with sacd versions.

No worries, the "Living Stereo" collection (RCA?) takes care of this.

No worries, the "Living Stereo" collection (RCA?) takes care of this.

I have a number of the early Living Stereo SACD releases, but aren't they nearly all classical?

Riiight, Sony has long ago abondoned this format, mostly from the software POV. Yes they still come out with hardware, because it's very easy to add to disc players that they would release anyway. These formats are on life support from the small labels like AIX, and the classical "arms" of the some of the major ones. The fact that viny still outsells these combined, tells a story of it's own and one need not elaborate any further of the state of these formats. I've been a collector for over 5 years, but there is no need deny the fact there isn't much to pick from that isn't classical music.

Unfortunately they don't seem to have taken that approach with their newer Blu-ray players. No SACD on them :-(

I seriously doubt you'll find anything worthwhile at Circuit City. Besides, the Kraftwerk SACDs weren't released in the US. You may have to go overseas for that....

Kraftwerk-Maximum Minimum SACD (http://www.hifi-cd.com/en/product/item/8051/product_detail.html)

Thanks a bunch for the Kraftwerk link... have you ordered from them before?!
Got any more overseas website links for SACD?

Thanks a bunch for the Kraftwerk link... have you ordered from them before?!
Got any more overseas website links for SACD?

Ordered from them many times over the last several years. I was able to get some fantastic titles for relatively low prices....such as the Alison Krauss "Now That I've Found You" SACD I got from them last month for $25.00. Many of the SACDs in the link of my signature were from hifi-cd.com since they can't be found anywhere else.

The only other overseas vendors I have ordered from was HMV Japan. Excellent, like hifi-cd.com.

I think it's the other way around. Besides the PS3, Sony hasn't released any new SACD capable hardware in a long time. Meanwhile, Sony Music has released some more classical SACD titles and announced another "re-performance" SACD for this year. While a completely separate company from Sony/BMG, Japan Sony Music has released over 20 SACD titles in the half of 2007....including those from Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, and Leonard Bernstein.
They currently have 4 different models not including the PS3, they might not be new but they are current. Once again classical music is not everyone's cup of tea, and it's just a small fraction of music being sold today on any format. Sony has a huge pop/rock catalog to choose from, but they choose not to release, what may of us would want. Too bad.

Ordered from them many times over the last several years. I was able to get some fantastic titles for relatively low prices....such as the Alison Krauss "Now That I've Found You" SACD I got from them last month for $25.00. Many of the SACDs in the link of my signature were from hifi-cd.com since they can't be found anywhere else.

The only other overseas vendors I have ordered from was HMV Japan. Excellent, like hifi-cd.com.

You the best ematcion! I'm new to multichannel audio and I thought I was doomed in finding Kraftwerk MM sacd. Going to pick up Dire Straits BIA ($18 vs $33 amazon :eek: ) and Peter Gabriel Up. Thanks again! ..."We are the robots..." :D

Well, hopefully Oppo retains SACD/DVD-A capability in their BD player. Denon has also said they are going to put SACD/DVDA back in in their second generation BD players

Has Oppo announced plans for a BD player? Wow...an all-in-one, I would probably cancel my panny BD player future purchase if there was some substance to that. I hope Denon carries though but its the mainstream and popular big-box manufacturers that need to support SACD/DVD-A. I think BD and multichannel audio in video games will really drive the home theather experience more so than DVD did. That should open more folks up to SACD/DVD-A...but only if the equipment they already have bought for their hi-def set-up already supports it. Once the passive consumer watches Chris Botti Live Blu-ray or their favorite artist perform on BD in 5.1/7.1 PCM... that should spark the interest. I know that how it happened for me...but I was set aside to learn that neither my PS3 or HD-A2 supported neither. :mad:

OPPO will not announce its formal plans until this Summer. Informally it would like to introduce a BR/multichannel SACD/DVD-A player with internet capability and 7.1 analog and HDMI and stereo PCM optical output. OPPO depends upon the availability of mature, quality chip sets and mechanical devices and then gets to work on custom firmware improvements. It is not clear what it will be able to produce by this Summer or early Fall since the latest chip sets and laser assemblies are still in pre or very early production cycles.

I think SACD will continue to limp along but any future hi-res MCH audio will likely be Blu-ray with 24/96 or 24/192 recordings (essentially DVD-A "plus" if done in Dolby TrueHD --ironic, given the DVD-A/SACD competition--or in uncompressed PCM). There is a trickle of such releases (almost all classical IIRC) at the moment. More interesting (in terms of marketing) is that all concerts can be released with an uncompressed PCM MCH soundtrack (there is a Dave Matthews release that, whatever one thinks of the music--not universally loved, I admit, though I like it--is considered an excellent audio presentation from every review I've encountered). As long as the concert producers take the trouble to do so, we can have HD video and lossless/uncompressed MCH audio at hi-res resolutions. That MIGHT (might) keep the hi-res MCH audio flame flickering long enough to get wider releases in MCH hi-res audio (with or without video) in genres other than classical and jazz on a wide basis.

any future hi-res MCH audio will likely be Blu-ray with 24/96 or 24/192 recordings (essentially DVD-A "plus" if done in Dolby TrueHD --ironic, given the DVD-A/SACD competition--or in uncompressed PCM).

Maybe for live concert/performance recordings, but extremely unlikely for studio albums.

SACD is very well alive in the Classical music genre, with RCA Living Classics, Pentatone, et al.

Unless the retarded concert video recordings can be made with interactive free zoning camera (and audio), it's a huge distraction to music. I mean, common, wtf do they want to make concert recordings like a dancing gig.

I think SACD will continue to limp along but any future hi-res MCH audio will likely be Blu-ray with 24/96 or 24/192 recordings (essentially DVD-A "plus" if done in Dolby TrueHD --ironic, given the DVD-A/SACD competition--or in uncompressed PCM). There is a trickle of such releases (almost all classical IIRC) at the moment. More interesting (in terms of marketing) is that all concerts can be released with an uncompressed PCM MCH soundtrack (there is a Dave Matthews release that, whatever one thinks of the music--not universally loved, I admit, though I like it--is considered an excellent audio presentation from every review I've encountered). As long as the concert producers take the trouble to do so, we can have HD video and lossless/uncompressed MCH audio at hi-res resolutions. That MIGHT (might) keep the hi-res MCH audio flame flickering long enough to get wider releases in MCH hi-res audio (with or without video) in genres other than classical and jazz on a wide basis.

The War Memorial Opera House in San Francisco has a new media studio with funds from the Koret foundation and a partnership with Sony featuring robotic 1080P digital cameras. The first recorded opera is La Rondine being played for the first time this weekend around the country at select DLP theaters. I wouldn't think that it's to much of a stretch to think that we're going to see some discs for sale fairly soon. I hope they're BR and not SD-DVD. I'm planning on going Sat. It's only 6 bucks for the matinee in Fairfax.

Agreed. My most impressive, though brief, demo is the Copland/SFSO snippet on the Dolby TrueHD demo disc. We need more!!


You should give Chris Botti: Live (With Orchestra and Special Guests) [Blu-ray] a try, great sound - uncompressed 24/96

You should give Chris Botti: Live (With Orchestra and Special Guests) [Blu-ray] a try, great sound - uncompressed 24/96Yeah but the music bores me.

I guess hi-res audio can't cure EVERYTHING. :D

AVRev article about bluray audio (http://www.avrev.com/news/0308/06.bluraylabels270.shtml)

AVRev article about bluray audio (http://www.avrev.com/news/0308/06.bluraylabels270.shtml)

good article... he sure didn't hold back his thoughts...
btw... I'm not a jazz fanatic, but I throughly enjoyed Chris Botti Live Blu-ray...
Hopefully Blu-ray-Audio takes off... we need something to rescue the youths of today from the "dumbing down" mp3 download generation.

edit: just read this:
Trent Reznor has revealed, via his website, that the latest Nine Inch Nails album "Ghosts I-IV" will receive deluxe edition packaging that will include a Blu-ray release of all 36 tracks in stunning 96kHz/24-bit quality. When the disc is played in your Blu-ray player, it will display a slide show to accompany the music.

edit: just read this:
Trent Reznor has revealed, via his website, that the latest Nine Inch Nails album "Ghosts I-IV" will receive deluxe edition packaging that will include a Blu-ray release of all 36 tracks in stunning 96kHz/24-bit quality. When the disc is played in your Blu-ray player, it will display a slide show to accompany the music.

I think the $300 deluxe set has been sold out :p

I'm really starting to think that blu-ray might be the future of dvd-audio and sacd (at least from the point of view that some people will always want a disc and be reluctant to adopt downloads). regardless of whether you hate sony or not, blu-ray's obviously going to have SOME success in mainstream. maybe blu-ray could finally finish the need for both formats and unite both sides of the field. and I'm liking VERY MUCH the capability of pcm surround without need for codecs. and if you're thinking, sony wouldn't allow this - they have their sacd... well the sheer fact that sony kept open a future "profile 3.0" option for audio-centric releases dispells that altogether. how ironic then. the question is, will sony see more money in blu-ray cd than sacd, and therefore let sacd's sales be cannibalised, or will they think downloads will be too strong to try and push yet another hi-res audio format out the door?

AVRev article about bluray audio (http://www.avrev.com/news/0308/06.bluraylabels270.shtml)

wow. what a great article. that pretty much sums up my feelings regarding hi-rez audio. i have to believe that there are many more who would love to see blu-ray be the wave of the future for quality music.

Nowhere. Fast.

More and more SACDs in my collection, reaching 500 soon, love it, jazz addict but also rekindled my classical, and made me improve my musical knowledge.

Surround sound is the future of music reproduction in the home. Most Gen X'ers and Millenials love their iPods, but will never own a 2-channel high end audio system. That said, most of them, once they get a house, will lust after a decent home theater, including 5.1 surround sound. Add in a Blu-Ray player and a surround sound processor receiver with an Ethernet port, and you have a format flexible, hi-rez surround sound system in a mainstream consumer product grouping.

The only thing missing is content, but that will come soon, either on Blu-Ray or download. SACD is still the hi-rez King in my book, and may be the "new vinyl", but Blu-Ray Dolby TrueHD is very, very good.

In ten years, we will look at stereo as the "iPod format", and a LOT of very expensive 2-channel stuff will end up in pawn shops and garages sales, as their reactionary owners die-off or become deaf.

Kudos to Kal R. for keeping the faith for all of us audio progressives !!

From March 7, 2008 edition of Audiophile Audition (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=3901) (audaud.com)

Blu-ray for Audio-Only Recordings? - Now that the absurd HD format war is finally over, one of our fellow online AV publications is urging the major labels to begin issuing surround sound audio-only Blu-ray DVDs of top music performers. (This is also one of the publications constantly referring to the “failure” of SACD - in spite of over 4000 releases and new labels coming out regularly.) Their idea is that those with Blu-ray players wouldn’t need six-channel analog connections but could use the single digital bitstream output for either Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD hi-res lossless surround sound. The hope is to see the best SACD and DVD-A albums reissued again on audio-only Blu-ray discs, followed by new audio-only surround releases.

We couldn’t be more supportive of video music programs on Blu-ray. Just as adding 16:9 widescreen and surround sound made concerts on DVD so much more involving and exciting, having the images in 1080 HD and the audio in lossless surround or uncompressed PCM surround can make any genre of music performance a breathtaking experience. At the beginning of the laserdisc era many wonderful music concert programs were issued, but with the saturation of that format being so small they didn’t sell well and labels held off until recently doing the same with DVD. We hope to see lots more pop, jazz, classical and dance video concerts on Blu-ray. See some of our Blu-ray DVD music reviews for our opinions on how much the format heightens enjoyment of the material. Being able to discern all the details in long shots of ballet and opera is just one of the HD advantages.

But audio-only Blu-rays? Furgetaboutit. Just as with most DVD-As - one of the big cons with that format - Blu-ray players as well as the programming on the actual discs demand that the player be hooked up to a video display in order to navigate the disc. The PS3, which now constitutes a large portion of Blu-ray penetration, has no direct play/stop/fast wind/pause buttons. All Blu-ray players take a very long time to load a disc (compared to SACD & CD players) before you can access it. The Blu-ray software makes you have to sit thru all the FBI warnings, no-copying clip, and on most movie discs endless previews, before you ever finally get to the movie. Want to deal with all that when you can slip in a SACD and hear your music instantly? Why use Blu-ray for something it wasn’t designed for when we have a near-perfect format for pure-music-only in HD surround = SACD? Plus it’s compatible for CD playback anywhere as well; Blu-ray discs don’t offer standard DVD playback - many Blu-ray players don’t even play standard CDs.

My only rebuttal to that would be somewhat minor--but the vast majority of my DVD-As (I have about 40 of them--I would say ALL, but a couple of them are, as yet, unopened) do NOT require me to turn on a video monitor to play what I want (unless I want to access some of the VIDEO content some of them have, obviously). So there is no INHERENT reason why an audio-only Blu-ray disc could not be authored to "auto play" upon insertion.

My only rebuttal to that would be somewhat minor--but the vast majority of my DVD-As (I have about 40 of them--I would say ALL, but a couple of them are, as yet, unopened) do NOT require me to turn on a video monitor to play what I want (unless I want to access some of the VIDEO content some of them have, obviously). So there is no INHERENT reason why an audio-only Blu-ray disc could not be authored to "auto play" upon insertion.
Exactly. A Blu-ray music format would in fact be NO different at all, technically, to what we already have (I'm quite certain it has all the advanced features there to allow straight music playback like a CD). and the theoretical profile 3.0 ONLY applies to players which would not have the requirement to support BD java, etc. But I imagine even Blu-ray music players would want to have full Blu-ray movie capability anyway, and by the time such a music format would be introduced, every player would have 2.0 as standard.

So, the ONLY thing involved in this, would be the marketing of it as a hi-def CD format, like a "Blu CD" or something. You'd have to make the average joe think it was something completely different.

IMO it has a good opportnity here to ride on the success of the Blu name (although you can't say DVD-Audio successfully rided on the DVD name)

advantages this time, are that:

- there's much more penetration of HDMI/iLink and surround audio gear than when DVD-Audio was introduced.
- You can author high-res, and even surround content WITHOUT the need for expensive codecs such as MLP, which requires an expensive encoder and then expensive tool (costing at least $5000). Just good old PCM. you DON"T need trueHD or DTS Master Audio for a music only format. I repeat, a music-only format.

In fact, if blu-ray takes off, I REALLY think the music industry should take advantage here to try and reinvigorate physical music formats. (at least today I do. :) I keep on switching between downloads/physical disc format love ). Every blu-ray player out there ALREADY has the ability to play this future "format", all they have to do is slap another nice logo on the box and market it to people.

How easy is that!

They've proven to everyone, and hopefully themselves, that being all scared of people copying the content doesn't help. they need to be bold this time and save themselves.

From March 7, 2008 edition of Audiophile Audition (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=3901) (audaud.com)

The author is really reaching to make his point here... not all blu-rays have the "copy is stealing" clip and the blu-rays I have with "endless previews", [especially Disney] you can repeatedly press SKIP FORWARD until you get to the main movie. Usually arriving at top menu in about 10-15 seconds.

But as for either of the two current hi-rez surround formats...their future existence or resurgence will be dependent on which one of the blu-ray players will support it. For Sony to drop SACD support on current PS3s to "bag a little more profit" (excluding the 80GB) worries me that they will concentrate on a format (blu-ray) that is capable of handling any kind of hi-rez duties.

The author is really reaching to make his point here... not all blu-rays have the "copy is stealing" clip and the blu-rays I have with "endless previews", [especially Disney] you can repeatedly press SKIP FORWARD until you get to the main movie. Usually arriving at top menu in about 10-15 seconds.

But as for either of the two current hi-rez surround formats...their future existence or resurgence will be dependent on which one of the blu-ray players will support it. For Sony to drop SACD support on current PS3s to "bag a little more profit" (excluding the 80GB) worries me that they will concentrate on a format (blu-ray) that is capable of handling any kind of hi-rez duties.
I didn't notice that article. I strongly disagree with that author, it is not MANDATORY to put FBI warnings on, and, what, he's saying that they'll put previews of other music albums on? To put stupid false information on like that is only childish and indulgent.

And it is simply FALSE that DVD-A requires a video display. Perhaps someone like Neil Wilkes can clarify but I think it's out of spec for a DVD-A disc to REQUIRE a TV set to be connected, in order to play the album. Unless record companies have actually been creating hybrid-type discs and calling them DVD-As. At the very least, press the play button and the album will start playing.

He's either an SACD zealot who doesn't want to see that format be diminished by blu-ray/other formats, or he has forgotten about "profile 3.0" and the obvious fact that they have that in place to market a music-oriented format, just like DVD-A.
That whole website is SACD-lop-sided, there's so much unique and significant content on DVD-A that they simply don't have on that website. Yet they have all sorts of obscure SACD titles.

That whole website is SACD-lop-sided, there's so much unique and significant content on DVD-A that they simply don't have on that website. Yet they have all sorts of obscure SACD titles.Very amusing. Isn't this just a matter of perspective?

Haha, yeah, it is.
But they should state/show more clearly that they are more of an SACD resource than DVD-A, otherwise the reader should assume it has a balanced amount of reviews for both hi-res formats.

...I mean, of course SACD has many more titles on the market, but it is a fact that most of the stuff that makes up SACD is stuff by lesser-known classical artists (I know cause I'm a classical musician by profession) as well as jazz titles and probably, when you round it out, both formats have about the same amount of "significant" titles and artists. So, I think that is the way they should treat their coverage, IF they intend to be an overall hi-res disc review site, which they clearly do by their slogan.

Anyway, I have nothing against SACD of course, I'm just saying their site isn't very neutral. If they mainly did DVD-A and scamped on SACD reviews I'd be annoyed too. It's just there's a lot of great DVD-A titles not on that site, it's almost like they're avoiding them...so I wouldn't recommended the site to a new-timer to hi-res music, it would give them the wrong impression. There's a lot of great unique content on DVD-A, and people should know about it.

Nicely balanced response. Of course, it is hard to be even-handed and not be affected by one's biases, at least it is for me. ;)

OTOH, it is important to recognise one's biases.

Yeah, well it's obvious I'm a DVD-A follower and I hate DSD with a passion (which, put it this way, is a contributing factor to my preference against SACD), but I respect the format very much, and think it has many merits DVD-A does not have. In fact, I go so far as to say it is a more "noble" effort and format (except with major screwings up by Sony).

OTOH The no. 1 thing I'm annoyed at with DVD-A, is actually its ability to have video on the same disc. For many reasons. Which is why, eventually in my life, when I have a good enough connection etc, I'll be at home with simple downloads, straight to my lounge room I hope.

Well, as I have said before, my preference for SACD is determined by the available repertoire rather than by technical issues. In fact, I just unloaded a few dozen DVD-As that were duplicates of SACDs or were of low interest. The only ones I kept are, imho, unique releases.

Ironically, I enjoy non-classical music in hi-res/surround more than classical, maybe cause it's not so much my daily job, and so it's something diverse and different to enjoy at home. So, I know it sounds heretical, but I often don't see the need to get a hi-res classical title, I'll just get the CD (except for my favourite ones of course).
Boy, that's being honest, especially for this forum. Wearing fire-proof jacket for extra precaution (lol)!

Wish I'd known when you were clearing out your "unloved" and "unappreciated" DVD-As...:p...might have got some discs for the cheap!

Why are we always "eating our young?" In my system I have a dedicated SACD/DVD-A player and a dedicated Blu-Ray/sDVD player. While I have a preference for SACD...I really don't care what format is used...I got it covered. For instance, Lord of the Rings soundtrack (Return of the King) was just released in DVD-A. Sounds great!!! I bought it and absolutely love it. I only wish some of my other favorite soundtracks were released in Hi-Rez...any Hi-Rez...please.

What's truly important is getting content fed in to my system that makes me feel as if I wisely spent all those $$$ buying the electronics.

What we need are artists (like Howard Shore) who are actually interested in having their art displayed in the best way possible. If an artist is content with mass marketing their CD or MP3...well, that tells you a lot about the artist...just a bunch of commercial hacks. But, every now and then we get artists who are actually vitally concerned about their craft. For example, Ray Sings and Basie Swings is out in SACD and is a testament to technology and art coming together in a vital and important way.

Marcus

And it is simply FALSE that DVD-A requires a video display. Perhaps someone like Neil Wilkes can clarify but I think it's out of spec for a DVD-A disc to REQUIRE a TV set to be connected, in order to play the album. Unless record companies have actually been creating hybrid-type discs and calling them DVD-As. At the very least, press the play button and the album will start playing.
Where this idea breaks down is with DVD-A titles that have 2 channel and multichannel versions. Most of my DVD-A titles are like this, and for me to select between 2 channel or multichannel, I need to put the tv on and navigate the menu. I think that all of my DVD-As default to the multichannel mix, which is usually not the one I want to hear.

Wish I'd known when you were clearing out your "unloved" and "unappreciated" DVD-As...:p...might have got some discs for the cheap!Nah. I gave them all to a friend......along with a player.

Where this idea breaks down is with DVD-A titles that have 2 channel and multichannel versions. Most of my DVD-A titles are like this, and for me to select between 2 channel or multichannel, I need to put the tv on and navigate the menu. I think that all of my DVD-As default to the multichannel mix, which is usually not the one I want to hear.
How about the audio/language button on the remote?

Or alternatively select the correct group. That should usually be doable without the display on a sensible player. The trick is to know which group is which - the tracklisting for the DVD-Audio really should list the main groups, but they don't do this.

Or alternatively select the correct group. That should usually be doable without the display on a sensible player. The trick is to know which group is which - the tracklisting for the DVD-Audio really should list the main groups, but they don't do this.
Often DVD-As have very complicated groupings and order, with half the multi-channel, then half the stereo, then the second half of multi-channel followed by the rest of the stereo. Don't ask me why...
The easiest way is to choose the language (not the group), and the player will automatically read from the disc which group and track it corresponds to, from the disc structure menu.

And it is simply FALSE that DVD-A requires a video display. Perhaps someone like Neil Wilkes can clarify but I think it's out of spec for a DVD-A disc to REQUIRE a TV set to be connected, in order to play the album. Unless record companies have actually been creating hybrid-type discs and calling them DVD-As. At the very least, press the play button and the album will start playing.
Where this idea breaks down is with DVD-A titles that have 2 channel and multichannel versions. Most of my DVD-A titles are like this, and for me to select between 2 channel or multichannel, I need to put the tv on and navigate the menu. I think that all of my DVD-As default to the multichannel mix, which is usually not the one I want to hear.Or alternatively select the correct group. That should usually be doable without the display on a sensible player. The trick is to know which group is which - the tracklisting for the DVD-Audio really should list the main groups, but they don't do this.Where this "breaks down" is in the fact that all DVD-As do not utilize the same or even correct grouping method.

With some DVD-As it IS possible to navigate them without using an OSD, however in order to navigate directly to the tracks one wishes to utilize usually requires some prior knowledge of the layout of the disc one is navigating, otherwise you sort of randomly switch groupings until your player's front display (if capable) tells you you have found the tracks you are looking for. With a player with a limited front display that, for example, doesn't tell you how many channels the track one has arrived at has, navigating "blindly" around the disc is problematic. Of course, you CAN try out a track to see how many channels are being utilized, but having to do so simply illustrates the problem in the first place.

And, unfortunately, because there is no uniformity in the way that DVD-As are layed out, there ARE many DVD-As with which it is absolutely impossible to navigate to the correct tracks without an OSD.

Where this "breaks down" is in the fact that all DVD-As do not utilize the same or even correct grouping method.

With some DVD-As it IS possible to navigate them without using an OSD, however in order to navigate directly to the tracks one wishes to utilize usually requires some prior knowledge of the layout of the disc one is navigating, otherwise you sort of randomly switch groupings until your player's front display (if capable) tells you you have found the tracks you are looking for. With a player with a limited front display that, for example, doesn't tell you how many channels the track one has arrived at has, navigating "blindly" around the disc is problematic. Of course, you CAN try out a track to see how many channels are being utilized, but having to do so simply illustrates the problem in the first place.

And, unfortunately, because there is no uniformity in the way that DVD-As are layed out, there ARE many DVD-As with which it is absolutely impossible to navigate to the correct tracks without an OSD.
But...*disregarding which language it chooses (for now)*, won't every disc just play the tracks in the right order from the first track? If you don't turn the TV on, and just press the play button. It will at least do that with every disc, right?

But...*disregarding which language it chooses (for now)*, won't every disc just play the tracks in the right order from the first track? If you don't turn the TV on, and just press the play button. It will at least do that with every disc, right?Most players have a global setting which allows one to set it to play the DVD-A (or the DVD-V) tracks by default. And yes, most DVD-As default to the multichannel tracks initially, however I have some that default to the 2-channel tracks (this is obviously dictated by the layout of the disc). But, it is navigating BEYOND this initial default choice that is problematic. And this is where the unfortunate lack of uniformity in layout becomes a problem. For example, with some of my DVD-As, navigating to "Group2" will take you from the multichannel DVD-A tracks to the 2-channel DVD-A tracks. However, with other DVD-As, navigating to "Group2" will take you to the lossy DD or DTS tracks.

As I said, once one is familiar with a particular disc's layout it DOES becoime easier to navigate around it with no OSD. But there are still some DVD-As which are impossible to navigate if the player's front panel display is not informative enough.

Most players have a global setting which allows one to set it to play the DVD-A (or the DVD-V) tracks by default. And yes, most DVD-As default to the multichannel tracks initially, however I have some that default to the 2-channel tracks (this is obviously dictated by the layout of the disc). But, it is navigating BEYOND this initial default choice that is problematic. And this is where the unfortunate lack of uniformity in layout becomes a problem. For example, with some of my DVD-As, navigating to "Group2" will take you from the multichannel DVD-A tracks to the 2-channel DVD-A tracks. However, with other DVD-As, navigating to "Group2" will take you to the lossy DD or DTS tracks.

As I said, once one is familiar with a particular disc's layout it DOES becoime easier to navigate around it with no OSD. But there are still some DVD-As which are impossible to navigate if the player's front panel display is not informative enough.
I am not familiar with the ability for a DVD-Audio player to display the "groups" on its display screen...it seems very techy and a bit complicated for the average consumer. (as they intended for there to be an average consumer anyway!) I don't have access to my Pioneer 696 right now, but but if most players do, I'll take your word for it. However, wouldn't they display the track numbers as well, or instead? Like a CD player? That's what I thought the standard was. So you don't even have to worry about groups, even if it shows.

And what about my idea, my method of changing the soundtrack with audio button on remote? THAT seems like an absolute standard setting on any DVD-A player, at least ones these days. However I've never tried pressing it to get to DTS/DD tracks...(since I don't care for them but to only compare sound quality)...don't know how that works.

I am not familiar with the ability for a DVD-Audio player to display the "groups" on its display screen...Most don't but that is not really a problem. The problem is that what is represented as "Group2" on a disc varies from disc to disc. There is no uniformity.

With a player with a fully informative display, what you can see is how many channels the track may have (5 versus 2) as well as whether it is DVD-A versus DD/DTS. So, with a player that has this info, you CAN usually blindly navigate the disc until you get to what you are looking for. But the lack of uniformity in the layout from disc to disc is the problem. As I pointed out, with some discs if you use your remote control to navigate to "Group2", you may end up at the DVD-A's 2-channel tracks, the DD multichannel tracks, or maybe even some "bonus" video material. So, you can't really navigate directly to what you want on any particular disc unless you are already familiar with its exact layout. Otherwise all you can do is "surf" the disc until you arrive where you wish but, as I pointed out, with a player without a fully informative front panel display, this becomes even harder if not impossible without actually listening to the tracks one arrives at to determine how many channels one is listening to. My Denon2200, for example, displays the number of tracks as well as whether one has arrived at the DVD-A or DD or DTS tracks. But my Denon DVD-757 does not display the number of channels present on the tracks one has arrived at; only the type of track (DVD-A, DD, or DTS). So, although I can see whether a track is DVD-A or DD or DTS, I still can't be certain whether I have arrived at the 5.1 or 2 channel tracks without giving a listen, which as I said, if one has to do that, demonstrates the whole problem in the first place.


However, wouldn't they display the track numbers as well, or instead? Like a CD player? That's what I thought the standard was. So you don't even have to worry about groups, even if it shows.The track numbers are not useful. For example, the track number displayed is the same for an album's 4th track whether you are listening to the DVD-A, DD, or DTS, multichannel OR 2 channel tracks.


And what about my idea, my method of changing the soundtrack with audio button on remote? THAT seems like an absolute standard setting on any DVD-A player, at least ones these days.No. It's not standard. Sometimes the "Audio" button won't do anything. Sometimes it will change from the multichannel DVD-A tracks to the 2-channel DVD-A tracks. Sometimes it will change from the multichannel DVD-A tracks to the multichannel DD tracks. And the same is true with the "Group" button. What it does varies from disc to disc, depending upon how the disc is layed out. If whoever was responsible for the disc's layout made Group2 = the 2-channel DVD-A tracks, that is what using the "Group" button will get you. But if whoever was responsible for the disc's layout made Group2 = 5.1 DD tracks, that is what you will get by using the "Group" button. And that is the whole problem. There is no uniformity. As I said, if one is already familiar with a particular disc's layout, it is usually possible to navigate reasonably well to exactly what one is looking for. Otherwise you are left just poking at buttons until you arrive where you wish to arrive.


Additionally, there ARE some discs that just completely defy ALL known conventions for layout and they are COMPLETELY impossible to navigate without an OSD.

Most don't but that is but one of the problems. More importantly, what is represented as "Group2" on a disc varies from disc to disc. There is no uniformity.

With a player with a fully informative display, what you can see is how many channels the track may have (5 versus 2) as well as whether it is DVD-A versus DD/DTS. So, with a player that has this info, you CAN usually blindly navigate the disc until you get to what you are looking for. But the lack of uniformity in the layout from disc to disc is the problem. As I pointed out, with some discs if you use your remote control to navigate to "Group2", you may end up at the DVD-A's 2-channel tracks, the DD multichannel tracks, or maybe even some "bonus" video material. So, you can't really navigate directly to what you want on any particular disc unless you are already familiar with its exact layout. Otherwise all you can do is "surf" the disc until you arrive where you wish but, as I pointed out, with a player without a fully informative front panel display, this becomes even harder if not impossible without actually listening to the tracks one arrives at to determine how many channels one is listening to. My Denon2200, for example, displays the number of tracks as well as whether one has arrived at the DVD-A or DD or DTS tracks. But my Denon DVD-757 does not display the number of channels present on the tracks one has arrived at; only the type of track (DVD-A, DD, or DTS). So, although I can see whether a track is DVD-A or DD or DTS, I still can't be certain whether I have arrived at the 5.1 or 2 channel tracks without giving a listen, which as I said, if one has to do that, demonstrates the whole problem in the first place.


For these reasons, I wouldn't prefer to "surf" a disc in this method anyway, I'd rather the much simpler method of tracks and languages.



The track numbers are not useful. For example, the track number displayed is the same for an album's 4th track whether you are listening to the DVD-A, DD, or DTS, multichannel OR 2 channel tracks.

Ah - but then you can easily see on your receiver what format it is (if using digital HDMI which is the only option I would ever consider for DVD-Audio these days). And of course you have the DVD-Audio case to refer to, just like a normal CD.


No. It's not standard. Sometimes the "Audio" button won't do anything. Sometimes it will change from the multichannel DVD-A tracks to the 2-channel DVD-A tracks. Sometimes it will change from the multichannel DVD-A tracks to the multichannel DD tracks. And the same is true with the "Group" button. What it does varies from disc to disc, depending upon how the disc is layed out. If whoever was responsible for the disc's layout made Group2 = the 2-channel DVD-A tracks, that is what using the "Group" button will get you. But if whoever was responsible for the disc's layout made Group2 = 5.1 DD tracks, that is what you will get by using the "group" button. And that is the whole problem. There is no uniformity. As I said, if one is already familiar with a particular disc's layout, it is usually possible to navigate reasonably well to exactly what one is looking for. Otherwise you are left just poking at buttons until you arrive where you wish to arrive.
I can imagine the only time the audio button won't do anything, is when it's loading a track, but when playing a track, it's in the "zone" figuratively, and it may require a 'little' knowledge, but it shouldn't be too hard to get used to, once you know what your player's dvd remote functions do.


Additionally, there ARE some discs that just completely defy ALL known conventions for layout and they are impossible to navigate without an OSD.This is where I think such discs are out of spec. I'll have to dig up some info on that, but I'm sure I've read in one of those massively-long press-releases/introduction guides from around 2000-2001 that every disc will start playing when you put it in. That was the "original intent" of the format, and the extra features were, well, extra features. But, the format has been watered down, weakened by lack of consumer traction over the years and so the record companies have tried to make these discs as appealing and full-featured as possible. IMO, not the way to go and disappointing. Keep vid for DVD-Video, I say.
But at least, discs such as these are not in the majority. I usually check out the video stuff anyway, as you do, but increasingly, I just like to listen to the music for goodness sake...so I'll have to see...

+ I have heard from Wilksey that some commercial discs (I think) have actually been out of spec (in the "technical" sense) and that it's a disgrace. And I think these discs are included in that.

Ah - but then you can easily see on your receiver what format it is (if using digital HDMI which is the only option I would ever consider for DVD-Audio these days). And of course you have the DVD-Audio case to refer to, just like a normal CD.You may prefer HDMI (I would too if I had the capability), but there are many of us who still use analog multichannel connections for our players. The DVD-A's case is not informative at all as to the method used by whoever authored the disc to layout the track "groupings". That's the problem.


I can imagine the only time the audio button won't do anything, is when it's loading a track, but when playing a track, it's in the "zone" figuratively, and it may require a 'little' knowledge, but it shouldn't be too hard to get used to, once you know what your player's dvd remote functions do.

This is where I think such discs are out of spec. I'll have to dig up some info on that, but I'm sure I've read in one of those massively-long press-releases/introduction guides from around 2000-2001 that every disc will start playing when you put it in. That was the "original intent" of the format, and the extra features were, well, extra features. But, the format has been watered down, weakened by lack of consumer traction over the years and so the record companies have tried to make these discs as appealing and full-featured as possible. IMO, not the way to go and disappointing. Keep vid for DVD-Video, I say.
But at least, discs such as these are not in the majority. I usually check out the video stuff anyway, as you do, but increasingly, I just like to listen to the music for goodness sake...so I'll have to see...

+ I have heard from Wilksey that some commercial discs (I think) have actually been out of spec (in the "technical" sense) and that it's a disgrace. And I think these discs are included in that.I would recommend you try out navigating several of your discs by the same method and you will quickly see that there is a lack of uniformity as to how they are authored group/track-wise.

You may prefer HDMI (I would too if I had the capability), but there are many of us who still use analog multichannel connections for our players. The DVD-A's case is not informative at all as to the method used by whoever authored the disc to layout the track "groupings". That's the problem.


I would recommend you try out navigating several of your discs by the same method and you will quickly see that there is a lack of uniformity as to how they are authored group/track-wise.

Will do.

Well now that I know you use an analog connection, I can definitely understand how difficult it is navigating a DVD-A disc without screen's feedback. And, I suppose, in the early days (I'm more a newer DVD-A appreciator) there would have been this problem, when they had a stronger sense of it being a "CD replacement" format (CD being a keyword there).

Gah, so many 'problems'! It's a real shame. I love the format but it really is a tragedy with everything that combined to keep it from rising above boutique status.

Let me add though that the majority of DVD-A owners now, I'm sure, use HDMI (especially with players with HDMI 1.2 and SACD playback, they're a dime a dozen for someone interested in high-end audio). There's a second generation of DVD-A lovers (of which I am one) that has come with the second generation of cheaper, and, let's put it, considering you have a digital preamp/pro/ etc, superior players. (as wrong as that sounds...I would love to own one of those ginormous black first-gen players, if I could afford one...I'd feel very nostalgic, in a funny way).

Gah, so many 'problems'! It's a real shame. I love the format but it really is a tragedy with everything that combined to keep it from rising above boutique status.Yeah, I never really understood why they (maybe that there is no "they" is the problem) couldn't achieve more uniformity in the way it was done, or even better yet, if that uniformity could be achieved, go so far as to implement something that, button-wise, works identically to the method employed for SACDs. IT is truly an unnecessary annoyance.


Let me add though that the majority of DVD-A owners now, I'm sure, use HDMI (especially with players with HDMI 1.2 and SACD playback, they're a dime a dozen for someone interested in high-end audio). There's a second generation of DVD-A lovers (of which I am one) that has come with the second generation of cheaper, and, let's put it, considering you have a digital preamp/pro/ etc, superior players. (as wrong as that sounds...I would love to own one of those ginormous black first-gen players, if I could afford one...I'd feel very nostalgic, in a funny way).Ah, but you see, it is not the player that is necessarily stopping me or most people in my shoes from going to HDMI. I need an HDMI-capable receiver or processor, which is much more expensive than most players, especially if I want to replace my current receiver with something at least equal in quality if not, most likely, better. Given that, and the fact that I do not have a limitless budget, and the fact that I will most likely be replacing my 4:3 CRT television first, I will be using the multichannel analog connection to my receiver for a while, yet. :( Heck, by the time I'm able to replace my receiver, there will probably be a whole new interface beyond HDMI. :eek:

Yeah, I never really understood why they (maybe that there is no "they" is the problem) couldn't achieve more uniformity in the way it was done, or even better yet, if that uniformity could be achieved, go so far as to implement something that, button-wise, works identically to the method employed for SACDs. IT is truly an unnecessary annoyance.It is understandable if you recall that this is really a DVD, not an audio disc. Movie DVDs are remarkably inconsistent in their menu options with, for example, audio track selection sometimes under "Languages" and sometimes under "Additional Features." The ordering and items in the main menu, too, are inconsistent. It is only plug-and-play for those who don't care how it is played.

It is understandable if you recall that this is really a DVD, not an audio disc. Movie DVDs are remarkably inconsistent in their menu options with, for example, audio track selection sometimes under "Languages" and sometimes under "Additional Features." The ordering and items in the main menu, too, are inconsistent. It is only plug-and-play for those who don't care how it is played.Yeah, I know. That doesn't mean that that same lack of uniformity had to necessarily translate over to DVD-As as well, although I realize that DVD-As differ in organization precisely because they do offer a flexibility not offered by SACDs, and that the SACD format, and lack of that sort of flexibility, dictates how (easily) SACDs are navigated. But, still, I think that some sort of uniformity might/should have been possible. That people DO think that there WAS, at some point, some standard suggested setup, indicates that at least someone tried. "Suggested" being the operative word, there. Nothing you can do about a rogue engineer who either refuses to follow or just doesn't know of such "suggestion". I guess that if the DVD format offers the flexibility, people will (mis)use it.

The other problem is that DVD-Video/Audio players don't offer a "DVD-Audio only" mode. They insist on going through the graphical menus.

A pure DVD-Audio player, of which there are a few, doesn't support the menus, or the DD/DTS tracks, or the videos. It only offers group and track selection. This makes the discs much easier to navigate without the display, assuming the discs are in spec :rolleyes:.

One example of such a player is the Linn Akurate CD (http://www.linn.co.uk/music_systems_akurate_cd), which is a CD/SACD/DVD-Audio player with no video output. But it's silly that one has to go to such a high-end product to get pure DVD-Audio capability. Standard players should have an "Audio-only" option added for DVD-Audio.

Then all you need as a list of the groups, which should be seen as vital a part of the booklet for a DVD-Audio as the list of tracks. (Wouldn't you get complaints about CDs being hard to navigate if they didn't list the track numbers in the booklet?) The authors of the DVD-Audios seem to forget that audio-only players exist. Some people won't see the menus and will rely on the group selection.