I need some help matching room & speakers to sub.
Here's the info:
1. Your budget: Under/around $900

2. Size requirements/limits: It has to fit between my real front wall and false wall (about 2'2" btw)

3. Room dimensions: 16.5'x22.5'x8'

4. Primary uses. 100% HT

5. Listening habits: Action movies mostly

6. Appearance requirements: Don't care, it's in a wall and no one will ever see it.

Here's my setup thus far:
Paradigm Monitor 9 V.2's fronts
Paradigm CC-350 center
Paradigm ADP-190 Dipoles for rear/side of 7.1 setup
Yamaha RXV-1800 (just ordered today)

Here's some possibilities I've looked at:
Paradigm DSP-3200 (brand new - isn't even on site yet)
Velodyne SPL-1000
HSU VTF-2 MK3 (I know this received 92 pts in another thread, but the previous 2 I've mentioned aren't there to put up against.

I wired so one sub would go in the front to start and I can add a second (not necessarily the same - maybe 8") later on.

Thanks!

I don't know anything about the Paradigm, but I'd pass on the Velodyne for HT. The HSU would do better. Also, why not consider the AV123 MFW-15 or an eD A5-350?

I don't know anything about the Paradigm, but I'd pass on the Velodyne for HT. The HSU would do better. Also, why not consider the SVS MFW-15 or an eD A5-350?A little slip on the MFW15, Mike?

Yes, thank you. Corrected.

Epik Castle / Dual mwf-15's
a little over the budget but worth it

a7s-450/caliber/knight single mwf15 if you must stay under $900

I don't know anything about the Paradigm, but I'd pass on the Velodyne for HT. The HSU would do better. Also, why not consider the AV123 MFW-15 or an eD A5-350?
Would you please explain why you'd pass on a Velodyne? I haven't looked @ those, but I will. Why would you go with those over the HSU?

Epik Castle / Dual mwf-15's
a little over the budget but worth it

a7s-450/caliber/knight single mwf15 if you must stay under $900

The $900 is for 1, I'll have a different budget (smaller) for the second one maybe in a couple years.

Would you please explain why you'd pass on a Velodyne? I haven't looked @ those, but I will. Why would you go with those over the HSU?

they, along with options I recommended, give you more bass for the money than hsu

Would you please explain why you'd pass on a Velodyne? I haven't looked @ those, but I will. Why would you go with those over the HSU?

I would pass on that particular Velodyne (SPL-1000) for HT purposes. It's can't do deep bass with any significant power. It's just too small. A Velodyne worth looking at in your price range might be the DLS-5000R.

I'm not necessarily recommending the others over the HSU. I'm just suggesting them as possible alternatives within your budget.

Do you guys think a 15" will be as responsive as a 10" or 12"? Since this is for movies, I'll need something VERY responsive.

BTW: Here are th links for some of the subs mentioned:
MWF-15 (http://**********/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=178&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37)
AVS-450 (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=640)
Epik Castle (http://store.epiksubwoofers.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=30)

Do you guys think a 15" will be as responsive as a 10" or 12"? Since this is for movies, I'll need something VERY responsive.

BTW: Here are th links for some of the subs mentioned:
MWF-15 (http://**********/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=178&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37)
AVS-450 (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=640)
Epik Castle (http://store.epiksubwoofers.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=30)

What do you mean by "responsive?" That doesn't really mean anything :rolleyes:.

I will personally vouch for the Castle. Absolutely awesome in my 1700 cubic ft room.

I'm not necessarily recommending the others over the HSU.

I am.

I'm not necessarily recommending the others over the HSU. I'm just suggesting them as possible alternatives within your budget.

I am.

You are speaking dogmatically about different subs as if you have actually heard them all to compare them. Is that the case?

No, but few people have. Available specs and reviews are enough to make a conclusion.

No, but few people have. Available specs and reviews are enough to make a conclusion.

You see, there is a problem with that theory. All subs have different strong points, weak points, and sonic characteristics which may cause one or another to appeal to different folks with different tastes. The specs and reviews may make choices clear for you, but might not be the best possible choice for someone else. To reach a cut-and-dry conclusion that one sub or another is better for someone that you don't even know is shortsighted in my opinion.

What do you mean by "responsive?" That doesn't really mean anything :rolleyes:.

When I say responsive, I mean that if there's machine gun fire, or a bunch of explosions right after one another, the sub will be able to keep up (theoretically would be more difficult to do the larger the woofer).

When I say responsive, I mean that if there's machine gun fire, or a bunch of explosions right after one another, the sub will be able to keep up (theoretically would be more difficult to do the larger the woofer).

So you're mostly worried about the sub's transient response? It's a common misconception that larger woofers are "slower" than smaller woofers. It's just not true. A well designed sub with a large woofer (say 15" or 18") can have equal or superior transient response to a sub with a smaller 10" or 12" woofer. If I were you, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on woofer size. Larger woofers are generally more efficient and can many times have better transient response than smaller woofers, because the woofer needs less excursion to produce the same SPL at a given frequency. At any rate, don't worry about a 15" sub being "slow".

I'm sure other far more knowledgeable forum members can enlighten you further if you desire more clarification.

You see, there is a problem with that theory. All subs have different strong points, weak points, and sonic characteristics which may cause one or another to appeal to different folks with different tastes. The specs and reviews may make choices clear for you, but might not be the best possible choice for someone else. To reach a cut-and-dry conclusion that one sub or another is better for someone that you don't even know is shortsighted in my opinion.

2. Size requirements/limits: It has to fit between my real front wall and false wall (about 2'2" btw [the shortest dim must be 26" or less] )
4. Primary uses. 100% HT
6. Appearance requirements: Don't care, it's in a wall and no one will ever see it.
12. Hsu VTF-3.3 (With and without Turbo)...
Measured results: 20 Hz: 100-101 dB (depending on configuration) ... 20-63 Hz average ... 107 dB Amp Power (RMS) 350 Watts Woofer Size 12 Inches
AV-123 MFW-15...
Measured results... 20 Hz - 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112 dB Amplifier: Custom 350 watt Driver: 15"
Epik Castle
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108.5 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB Amplifier: Custom 500 watt RMS Driver: Custom 15 inch extreme excursion design

If your opinion is that HSU vtf-3 is as good of a recommendation as the others in this particular case, can you elaborate what you are basing that on? You asked me if I heard them all - no I haven't, have you? Perhaps there is some secret specification that I missed that makes up for the disadvantages in driver size and output, and prohibits me from recommending others over it? Don't keep me in the dark if you know it. Until you do I'm gonna look at it this way
http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/misc/avslogo_sm.jpg = http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/death_camp_tolerance_south_park.jpg

Come to think of it, may be he can't wait and needs the sub immideatly. In that case vtf-3 becomes one of the best available choices. But if I ever recommend it to anyone I'll mention - "if you cannot wait"

If your opinion is that HSU vtf-3 is as good of a recommendation as the others in this particular case, can you elaborate what you are basing that on? You asked me if I heard them all - no I haven't, have you? Perhaps there is some secret specification that I missed that makes up for the disadvantages in driver size and output, and prohibits me from recommending others over it? Don't keep me in the dark if you know it. Until you do I'm gonna look at it this way
http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/misc/avslogo_sm.jpg = http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/death_camp_tolerance_south_park.jpg

Come to think of it, may be he can't wait and needs the sub immideatly. In that case vtf-3 becomes one of the best available choices. But if I ever recommend it to anyone I'll mention - "if you cannot wait"

First of all, the Epik Castle you are suggesting is $999 plus shipping which is probably another couple of hundred. The OP's budget was $900.

The single MFW-15 sounds like a pretty good option which is why I suggested it in the second post in this thread, but as you pointed out, what if the OP wants a sub soon?

You said you can judge subs purely from tests and reviews ("Available specs and reviews are enough to make a conclusion"), yet in above posts you recommend subs that have no formal tests or reviews to back them up (a7s-450/caliber/knight). Why do you assume that they are automatically better sounding than the HSU when you have seen no formal test results, have read no formal reviews, and haven't heard them yourself? What exactly are you basing your judgement on? Do you automatically assume that because they have a larger cone, they sound better? As you asked me above, "Can you elaborate what you are basing that on?"

I'm not arguing here for the sake of criticising your choices. You choices are most likely pretty sound choices, many of which I would suggest myself, but you tend to make it sound as though everyones preferences, tastes, needs, and priorities in a sub should be the same as yours. That's not always going to be the case.

First of all, the Epik Castle you are suggesting is $999 plus shipping which is probably another couple of hundred. The OP's budget was [Under/around $900 ( shipping included?)]
a little over the budget but worth it

The single MFW-15 sounds like a pretty good option which is why I suggested it in the second post in this thread, but as you pointed out, what if the OP wants a sub soon?

You said you can judge subs purely from tests and reviews ("Available specs and reviews are enough to make a conclusion"), yet in above posts you recommend subs that have no formal tests or reviews to back them up (a7s-450/caliber/knight). Why do you assume that they are automatically better sounding than the HSU when you have seen no formal test results, have read no formal reviews, and haven't heard them yourself? What exactly are you basing your judgement on? Do you automatically assume that because they have a larger cone, they sound better? As you asked me above, "Can you elaborate what you are basing that on?"


Thats just nitpicking. Of course you know that the Valor is rated as high as vtf-3 and the Knight will surely have a lot more output in a big vented box with same amp and driver. Being cheaper than vtf-3. a5-350 was rated higher than vtf-3, a guy who owned both said he prefered a5 because of identical SQ and more output, and a7s-450 according to ED rep has more output throughout and better SQ than a5-350..Again, looking at the specs I don't see a reason to doubt that. It is a shame that craig has not tested it because who knows - may be it has some kind of design or sound issues - but looking at the specs and the track record of ED it is likely to be great. I'm all for recommending specific subs based on requirements/preferences, but what I see all the time is seemingly inferior choices being recommended without any of those requirements or preferences being stated in the question or mentioned in the answer.



I'm not arguing here for the sake of criticising your choices. You choices are most likely pretty sound choices, many of which I would suggest myself, but you tend to make it sound as though everyones preferences, tastes, needs, and priorities in a sub should be the same as yours. That's not always going to be the case.

Not everyone's. Only those looking for the best perfomance for their money. And judging from the amount of posts asking an advice on a $300 or less subs, not many people are rolling in money. So I don't tell them "you can't go wrong with any of them" listing every sub with a matching price I can remember. Of course there are people with contrainsts and specific requirements, small rooms and low SPL listening habits etc, but unless it is stated I'm gonna assume they want loud and clear - like me.

Of course I'm no pro or expert, I'm just a noobie sound enthusiast and an internet addict. But I do like to have and express my own opinions on every known to me subject.

Thats just nitpicking. Of course you know that the Valor is rated as high as vtf-3 and the Knight will surely have a lot more output in a big vented box with same amp and driver. Being cheaper than vtf-3. a5-350 was rated higher than vtf-3, a guy who owned both said he prefered a5 because of identical SQ and more output, and a7s-450 according to ED rep has more output throughout and better SQ than a5-350..Again, looking at the specs I don't see a reason to doubt that. It is a shame that craig has not tested it because who knows - may be it has some kind of design or sound issues - but looking at the specs and the track record of ED it is likely to be great. I'm all for recommending specific subs based on requirements/preferences, but what I see all the time is seemingly inferior choices being recommended without any of those requirements or preferences being stated in the question or mentioned in the answer.Emphasis mine.

Hyperbole .... speculation ... hearsay ... antecdotes ...

What ratings? By whom?

Mojo is right.


Tim

CADOBHuK

Let's use a specifc example. HSU VTF-3 Mk3 vs Epik Caliber. Price: $699.

Which one sounds better and what do base it on?

Have you listened to both? No
Have you seen frequency response curves on both to compare? No
Have you seen tests on both to compare? No
Have you read any valid reviews on both to compare? No
Can you even tell me what the claimed frequency response or tuning is on the Caliber? No

Tell me again why you assume the Caliber sounds better than the VTF-3?

Of course I'm no pro or expert . . .

Sorry, but all I can think of is those Holiday Inn Express commercials.

I'm no audio expert, but I did read the Craigsub ranking list last night...



Scott

ssteel01 - Now that's funny.

Wow! I didn't mean to open up a hornets nest. I will not go w/ the castle as it is out of my price range (I need to try and keep SOMETHING w/in my budget here...). Transient response is important, but not necessarily extreme volume (I don't need to try and vibrate the sconces on my walls here). I'm not doing DD in my room, but am doing some other things to reduce sound transmission. My kids room is on the other side of the house (ranch), so I'm not going to be able to turn the sub to the point where it attempts to rattle my foundation.

SPDSpappy, I like hornets' nests! :D

I have an MFW-15 and yes it is "responsive". The lobby scene from The Matrix sounds amazing. It plays deep, clean enveloping bass and fills my 27 X 12.5 X 7.5 space more than effectively. I have never experienced a sub like this before until last week I love it. I'm sure you will not regret an MFW-15 if you choose to go that route. Best of luck in the search.

CADOBHuK

Let's use a specifc example. HSU VTF-3 Mk3 vs Epik Caliber.

You already used a specific example of a7s-450 and I explained how I estimated it's comparative performance. I did the same for the Knight, and it applies to the Caliber too. Of course it all may be Hyperbole .... speculation ... hearsay ... antecdotes ... but until something contradictory appears, it's the best we have to base our opinions on. It all must be false, right? Craig doesn't really evaluate subwoofers he just throws random numbers on his list. ED representative lies to me. Because looking at the specs, it's just not possible is it, that they could be right?
I'm no audio expert, but I did read the Craigsub ranking list last night...
And I chose to not ignore it. If you chose to ignore it, what's your reason? Please give me at least a speculation, a hearsay or an antecdote that disproves or at least opposes it. All I hear so far is "hath you hord zem both?!!" kind of stuff.

As to the OP I can tell you this. The ED A7S-450 with 1,300 watts is an excellent choice for your 3,000 cubic foot room. It is under $900 delivered. It plays clean, deep and loud. It is a great sub and with it being a sealed sub, I think it is easier to integrate (blend) with your speakers. Yes I have heard this sub. I have owned one since last November.

CADOBHuK

Let's use a specifc example. HSU VTF-3 Mk3 vs Epik Caliber. Price: $699.

Tell me again why you assume the Caliber sounds better than the VTF-3?

You already used a specific example of a7s-450 and I explained how I estimated it's comparative performance. I did the same for the Knight, and it applies to the Caliber too.

...and somehow from all this you feel comfortable drawing the conclusion that the Caliber sounds better than the VTF-3? Not logical. It's ok drawing that conclusion for yourself, but preaching it to others who are seeking sound advice as though it's accurate and based on something substantial is misleading, no?

I am pretty comfortable in my belief that Caliber has similar sound quality and more output than vtf-3. It could be less linear or not as good at reproducing very high frequencies, but since OP was looking for 100% HT performance and didnt care about the looks or the size, it sounded like Caliber would be a better choice than HSU. Now that he mentioned that hes not looking for extremely high output, may be HSU would be loud enough for him.
Now I will let those who have heard both speak their minds :