The more I study and learn about what TRUE subs are supposed to do, the more confused I have gotten. I am coming from an Onkyo SKW204 subwoofer that only cost me $199 shipped, so I am taking a big leap here because I believe that anything worth doing, is worth doing well.

However, since I cannot, and will not wait for 2 whole months, I have narrowed it down to 3 available subs.

My room size is 4480 cubic feet. My main interest is using it for HT.

1) SVS PB12-NSD
2) VTF-3 MK3
3) Outlaw LFM-1 EX

Which one, and why? Please stay away from price: Just tell me the specs and why. Thanks a lot for your help.

Your three choices will be pretty close in performance, but I'd give the edge to either the HSU or the Outlaw for having greater porting and different tuning options. I'd choose of of those unless you prefer a front firing sub. The HSU and the Outlaw should be almost identical in performance.

The more I study and learn about what TRUE subs are supposed to do, the more confused I have gotten. I am coming from an Onkyo SKW204 subwoofer that only cost me $199 shipped, so I am taking a big leap here because I believe that anything worth doing, is worth doing well.

However, since I cannot, and will not wait for 2 whole months, I have narrowed it down to 3 available subs.

My room size is 4480 cubic feet.

1) SVS PB12-NSD
2) VTF-3 MK3
3) Outlaw LFM-1 EX

Which one, and why? Please stay away from price: Just tell me the specs and why. Thanks a lot for your help.

#2 and #3 are similar as they are designed by Dr. HSU. #3 is more versitle as it will physically fit better in the room then #2. #1 is good and my personal preference in for HSU as I have the 3.3 Turbo and MBM-12.

Bill

If you preference is HT go with PB12-NSD. If it is music either outlaw or HSU will do.

Outlaw is on sale so I would go with that.

If you preference is HT go with PB12-NSD. If it is music either outlaw or HSU will do.

Outlaw is on sale so I would go with that.
Yes, my main interest is in HT not music. So the NSD is better with HT?

Outlaw is on sale? Where?

Yes, my main interest is in HT not music. So the NSD is better with HT?

Outlaw is on sale? Where?
Outlaw Audio is only sold online at:
LFMEX (http://outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html)

If you preference is HT go with PB12-NSD. If it is music either outlaw or HSU will do.

Outlaw is on sale so I would go with that.
What's your basis on your recommendation?

What's your basis on your recommendation?

REsults from HTshack and subjective impression from the following link.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12685154#post12685154

I see. When I read the whole thread, it pointed me to this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9506551&&#post9506551

I see. When I read the whole thread, it pointed me to this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9506551&&#post9506551

That review was from Jan 2007! Pdadi's review was from last month.

The PB12-NSD has a new amp now. The new review, they say, is based upon the new PB12-NSD's amp.

Ok, I've had a couple days now to listen to the SVS PB12-NSD with original amp, then swap it out for the revised amp that SVS has been shipping for the last few months, and compare both to the HSU VTF-3.3 in my 2500c.f. sealed room...

Thanks. I think I'll place my trust on Craig and wait till he gets a hold of one to review.

That review was from Jan 2007! Pdadi's review was from last month.

The PB12-NSD has a new amp now. The new review, they say, is based upon the new PB12-NSD's amp.

I think the PB12-NSD gives the best performance for your money. If you haven't already, see Ilkka's thread on HT shack. PB12-NSD's with both the old and new amp are shown, and the new amp shows significant improvements in both output and sound quality. The new PB12-NSD looks to give better extension than the VTF-3 MK3 in max output mode, while giving better output than the VTF-3 MK3 in max extension mode. It seems to be the best of both worlds, and costs considerably less. The Outlaw performs pretty similarly to the Hsu. If it were me, I'd go for the PB12-NSD. Good luck with your decision.

I think the PB12-NSD gives the best performance for your money. If you haven't already, see Ilkka's thread on HT shack. PB12-NSD's with both the old and new amp are shown, and the new amp shows significant improvements in both output and sound quality. The new PB12-NSD looks to give better extension than the VTF-3 MK3 in max output mode, while giving better output than the VTF-3 MK3 in max extension mode. It seems to be the best of both worlds, and costs considerably less. The Outlaw performs pretty similarly to the Hsu. If it were me, I'd go for the PB12-NSD. Good luck with your decision.

I want to thank you. You were the first one to stir me toward the PB12-NSD, but I was a little leery because of price. It took me awhile to realize that I would have to pay for the quality that I want.

I just talked to the SVS people and they swear by their sub.

Can you please post a link for me to Ilkka's thread on HT shack? Thanks again.

I think the PB12-NSD gives the best performance for your money. If you haven't already, see Ilkka's thread on HT shack. PB12-NSD's with both the old and new amp are shown, and the new amp shows significant improvements in both output and sound quality. The new PB12-NSD looks to give better extension than the VTF-3 MK3 in max output mode, while giving better output than the VTF-3 MK3 in max extension mode. It seems to be the best of both worlds, and costs considerably less. The Outlaw performs pretty similarly to the Hsu. If it were me, I'd go for the PB12-NSD. Good luck with your decision.

It looks like you are only looking at CEA 2010 data. You can't look only at that data without looking at frequency response too. Look more carefully at the frequency response sweeps at increasing SPL levels. The VTF-3 Mk3 in max output mode actually has higher output capability, less output compression, and more linear frequency response based on those sweeps.

Now I realize that Ross was comparing VTF-3 Mk3 in a relatively small (2500 ft^3) sealed room, where there is probably a lot of room gain. In that type of situation, I can see why a rolled off deep bass response would be good for him. In a larger room with openings like Blulover's room, I wouldn't expect there to be a huge amount of room gain that would bring up the rolled off frequency response, and the VTF-3 Mk3 should start to show some nice advantages in a room like that.

It looks like you are only looking at CEA 2010 data. You can't look only at that data without looking at frequency response too. Look more carefully at the frequency response sweeps at increasing SPL levels. The VTF-3 Mk3 in max output mode actually has higher output capability, less output compression, and more linear frequency response based on those sweeps. Also, I wouldn't consider a sub that is 5 or 6db down in the deep bass compared to the mid-bass as having better extension.

Now I realize that Ross was comparing VTF-3 Mk3 in a relatively small (2500 ft^3) sealed room, where there is probably a lot of room gain. In that type of situation, I can see why a rolled off deep bass response would be good for him. In a larger room with openings like Blulover's room, I wouldn't expect there to be a huge amount of room gain that would bring up the rolled off frequency response.

Hey Pete,

Just so you know, I totally respect Hsu and all Hsu has done in the subwoofer world. Hsu subs are high quality, high performance products. I agree that the CEA 2010 tests aren't the only measurements to consider. However, the PB12-NSD and VTF-3 MK3 do compare very closely, no matter the test I've seen. Given the $100 difference in price, I am recommending the PB12-NSD. Again, both subs are great subs and I think BluLover and others would be happy with either one. Price/performance is my main reason for suggesting the SVS. Anyway, just wanted you to know I'm not a rabid SVS fanboy trying to steal potential Hsu customers, as I have absolutely nothing against Hsu. I think it's safe to say that regardless of his decision, BluLover will be treated to bass far surpassing any he has experienced before :)

Respectfully,
Stephen

Stephen, I suppose my point is to not cherry pick data. If we are going to point people towards the HT Shack data, then don't selectively pick only CEA 2010 thd-limited output simply because that matches our opinion. The funny thing is that even the CEA 2010 data is underestimated on the VTF-3 Mk3 below 30Hz because of the mic orientation, as having the mic close to the port will always be an advantage for the other subwoofer.

If we ignore frequency response linearity, then naturally the VTF-3 Mk3 doesn't look any better, but why would we want to do that?

BluLover has a large open room, so I wouldn't expect him to benefit from a rolled off deep bass response.

For the almost $150 difference in price, I would think that the SVS is the better value.
But if the HSU were shipped for free, then the price advantage would be moot in my opinion.

I suppose that value is always in the eye of the beholder. If budget is tight, then one could always consider a VTF-2 Mk3 too, which has an extremely flat frequency response, and does a nice job filling fairly large rooms too.

Can you please post a link for me to Ilkka's thread on HT shack? Thanks again.

check your PM.

I suppose that value is always in the eye of the beholder. If budget is tight, then one could always consider a VTF-2 Mk3 too, which has an extremely flat frequency response, and does a nice job filling fairly large rooms too.

It's not about budget anymore, it's about getting the most sub for my money.
But isn't the SVS stronger than the VTF-2.3 in both max extention and max ouput modes? It seems to me that the SVS is comparable with the VTF-3.3.

I suppose the question to ask is, stronger in what respect?

The VTF-2 Mk3 frequency response when measured outside (port centroid and driver equidistant from mic) is +/- 0.5db from 16-200Hz in extended bass mode, and +/- 0.5db from 25-200Hz in max output mode. So it is a very linear subwoofer. In terms of max output capability, it compares quite favorably to the VTF-3 Mk3 in terms of output above 25Hz.

This was Craigsub's answer when the same question was put to him yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13099054&postcount=6335

Hey Pete,

What are the measurements for the 3.3?

So the 2.3 is close the 3.3 above 25 hz.
Below 25 hz how much of an advantage does the 3.3 have over the 2.3?

Hi juice,

The VTF-3 Mk3 frequency response when measured outside (port centroid and driver equidistant from mic) is +/- 1.0db from 15-200Hz in extended bass mode, and +/- 1.0db from 20-200Hz in max output mode. I'm not sure about the precise output differences between the -2 Mk3 and -3 Mk3 in the deeper bass, but the latter should be several db stronger in terms of max output.

I somehow doubt the +/- 1dB from 15-200Hz for the VTF-3. What volume is that when you measured it? Even the SVS PB13U in 15Hz mode can't do a 15-200Hz sweep with a +/- 1.0dB window, which is a considerably more powerful subwoofer than the VTF-3.

I'm looking at the measured response curves right now, it's definitely accurate! This was just an arbitrary sweep level, 90db @ 1m, but only at well beyond 110db @ 1m would there be any output compression for the subwoofer in max output mode at and above port tuning. In max extension mode, there would be some output compression when measuring louder than 105db @ 1m. Note that the current VTF-3 HO is even flatter than the -3 Mk3. The VTF-3 HO frequency response when measured outside (port centroid and driver equidistant from mic) is +/- 1.0db from 14-200Hz in extended bass mode, and +/- 0.5db from 18-200Hz in max output mode.

Stephen, I suppose my point is to not cherry pick data. If we are going to point people towards the HT Shack data, then don't selectively pick only CEA 2010 thd-limited output simply because that matches our opinion. The funny thing is that even the CEA 2010 data is underestimated on the VTF-3 Mk3 below 30Hz because of the mic orientation, as having the mic close to the port will always be an advantage for the other subwoofer.

If we ignore frequency response linearity, then naturally the VTF-3 Mk3 doesn't look any better, but why would we want to do that?

BluLover has a large open room, so I wouldn't expect him to benefit from a rolled off deep bass response.

Pete,

You have brought up an excellent point. I honestly didn't intend to "cherry pick" only the CEA 2010 measurements. In fact, I'll advise people to look at all of Ilkka's test results on HT Shack (hope I don't get kicked off AVS for recommending HT Shack AND Ilkka in one post! :rolleyes:). They are all valid tests and should be considered together in picking a subwoofer.

I don't know that I agree with the port/driver/microphone point, only because I see that Ilkka's tested other subs with the port and/or driver facing perpendicular to the microphone (actually, the PB10-ISD was one of them). My assumption would be that a guy as knowledgeable as Ilkka, as careful as he is with calibration and setup, wouldn't let something like that slip. Though I'll admit my personal knowledge of the issue is lacking :o.

The full gamut of tests indicates that both the PB12-NSD and VTF 3.3 (in both modes) have their strengths and relative weaknesses. My personal opinion (attention folks: do not take this to be the definitive word regarding the PB12-NSD vs. the VTF 3.3) after reviewing the tests is that I would probably opt for the PB12-NSD because of the substantially lower price. As I said before, both subs have many things going for them, and they're both excellent choices! I'll be the first to admit (ok, second, behind you Pete ;)) that the VTF 3.3 measures EXTREMELY linear. It's amazing that it can achieve a response that's a virtual flat line! Major props to Dr. Hsu in achieving that sort of response.

I in no way intended to speak poorly of Hsu, and if I came off that way I apologize. Again, my respect for both the PB12-NSD and the VTF 3.3 is very high, and I think they are both viable options in many situations. Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to clarify any misunderstandings.

Stephen

Pete,

You have brought up an excellent point. I honestly didn't intend to "cherry pick" only the CEA 2010 measurements. In fact, I'll advise people to look at all of Ilkka's test results on HT Shack (hope I don't get kicked off AVS for recommending HT Shack AND Ilkka in one post! :rolleyes:). They are all valid tests and should be considered together in picking a subwoofer.

I don't know that I agree with the port/driver/microphone point, only because I see that Ilkka's tested other subs with the port and/or driver facing perpendicular to the microphone (actually, the PB10-ISD was one of them). My assumption would be that a guy as knowledgeable as Ilkka, as careful as he is with calibration and setup, wouldn't let something like that slip. Though I'll admit my personal knowledge of the issue is lacking :o.

The full gamut of tests indicates that both the PB12-NSD and VTF 3.3 (in both modes) have their strengths and relative weaknesses. My personal opinion (attention folks: do not take this to be the definitive word regarding the PB12-NSD vs. the VTF 3.3) after reviewing the tests is that I would probably opt for the PB12-NSD because of the substantially lower price. As I said before, both subs have many things going for them, and they're both excellent choices! I'll be the first to admit (ok, second, behind you Pete ;)) that the VTF 3.3 measures EXTREMELY linear. It's amazing that it can achieve a response that's a virtual flat line! Major props to Dr. Hsu in achieving that sort of response.

I in no way intended to speak poorly of Hsu, and if I came off that way I apologize. Again, my respect for both the PB12-NSD and the VTF 3.3 is very high, and I think they are both viable options in many situations. Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to clarify any misunderstandings.

Stephen
I, for one, appreciated your, and a few other members' input. It was refreshing to hear different points of view. It was especially important for me to learn that the Craigsub rating of the PB12-NSD in The Official Craigsub List was based solely upon the old amp and the old version; and to see that he too had heard that the new version of the sub was very similar to the VTF-3.3 in almost every aspect.

Being a buyer, I must make my buying decision based upon value. You didn't try to sell me anything, you and a few otheres, provided me with enough information to make a well informed decision. And that is the best help that anyone can render to a layman in the subwoofer world as I am. Whatever decision that I make now would be a well informed one. Thanks again.

I, for one, appreciated your, and a few other members' input. It was refreshing to hear different points of view. It was especially important for me to learn that the Craigsub rating of the PB12-NSD in The Official Craigsub List was based solely upon the old amp; and to see that he too had heard that the new version of the sub was very similar to the VTF-3.3 in almost every aspect.

Being a buyer, I must make my buying decision based upon value. You didn't try to sell me anything, you and a few otheres, provided me with enough information to make a well informed decision. And that is the best help that anyone can render to a layman in the subwoofer world as I am. Whatever decision that I make now would be a well informed one. Thanks again.

No problem - glad I was able to give you some food for thought :). Judging by the subs you're considering, I think you'll be thrilled with whatever sub you end up with. Keep me posted in PM's.

Good luck blu lover.
BTW I'm I've always been on blu ray's side too. The fact that its winning reassures me in my evaluating abilities. The fact that 1 format is better than 2 reassures me that it's good to have winners and losers.

I'm looking at the measured response curves right now, it's definitely accurate! This was just an arbitrary sweep level, 90db @ 1m, but only at well beyond 110db @ 1m would there be any output compression for the subwoofer in max output mode at and above port tuning. In max extension mode, there would be some output compression when measuring louder than 105db @ 1m. Note that the current VTF-3 HO is even flatter than the -3 Mk3. The VTF-3 HO frequency response when measured outside (port centroid and driver equidistant from mic) is +/- 1.0db from 14-200Hz in extended bass mode, and +/- 0.5db from 18-200Hz in max output mode.

Not to hijack the thread, but whatever happened to Peter Marcks? Sorry, I haven't been around for awhile. :o

Anyway, getting back on topic... To the OP, I don't think you can go wrong with either the HSU or SVS.

Not to hijack the thread, but whatever happened to Peter Marcks? Sorry, I haven't been around for awhile. :o

Anyway, getting back on topic... To the OP, I don't think you can go wrong with either the HSU or SVS.

Peter Marcks uses the name Pete_Hsu on this Forum.

I want to thank you guys ( Especially Lalakersfan, and Pete_Hsu) for all of your help and input.
After a long reflection and research, my wife and I have settled on the more expensive VTF-3 MK3. She was really blown away by it, and we both felt that it would be easier to upgrade by adding a Turbocharger and the MBM-12 Mid-bass Module later, when we finish the building of our new theater.

Thanks again for you help.

Hey Blu - great choice! Looking forward to your impressions of it once it's in place.

I had decided on the HO, and was looking at an MBM as well for near field. I think $ for $ a HO turbo with MBM near field would be bass heaven in most rooms for movies. Music I don't know, maybe too much bass.

Unfortuntely, HSU does not ship the HO outside the US, so I was forced to go with my 'second' choice which was a PB Ultra. Can't say I'm disappointed with my decision, but I sure would like the opportunity to get my hands on a HO with Turbo and an MBM and see which is better. Hopefully Hsu changes their mind on Canada and starts shipping through here again.

I want to thank you guys ( Especially Lalakersfan, and Pete_Hsu) for all of your help and input.
After a long reflection and research, my wife and I have settled on the more expensive VTF-3 MK3. She was really blown away by it, and we both felt that it would be easier to upgrade by adding a Turbocharger and the MBM-12 Mid-bass Module later, when we finish the building of our new theater.

Thanks again for you help.

Congrats BluLover. I think you'll really enjoy your new sub :). Let us know your impressions when you get it all set up.

Congrats BluLover. I think you'll really enjoy your new sub :). Let us know your impressions when you get it all set up.

Definitely will do. Thanks for your help Lalakersfan.

I just got my sub in and the thing is a beast! It is way bigger and heavier than I thought. I had to pick it up and move it...wow.
This baby is beautiful. The packing and the fit and finish is absolutely first class.
I put it in your recommended position (the front right corner ), and I am currently testing it out.

All i can say is OMG!!!:eek:

I had no idea what a true sub was supposed to be able to do. I am utterly blown away! I set Audessy on my Onkyo 705, and was good to go.
I put on Matrix Reloaded on HD DVD because my former sub would make death sounds whenever I played this movie because it is so LFE rich.

The Hsu handled it like a champ. I can now feel the vibrations from the ships landing now, than hearing them!!

This is the best $800 I have ever spent! I am a HSU man for life now.:D

Hsu makes great subs...since you moved up in class just about all that you considered would have a similar effect. Enjoy...

All i can say is OMG!!!:eek:

I had no idea what a true sub was supposed to be able to do. I am utterly blown away! I set Audessy on my Onkyo 705, and was good to go.
I put on Matrix Reloaded on HD DVD because my former sub would make death sounds whenever I played this movie because it is so LFE rich.

The Hsu handled it like a champ. I can now feel the vibrations from the ships landing now, than hearing them!!

This is the best $800 I have ever spent! I am a HSU man for life now.:D

Glad you're satisfied :). When you compare any sub from Hsu, SVS, Epik, eD, AV123, etc. to a sub in its price range (or even considerably higher) from a big box store, this is the reaction that's likely to occur. Congratulations on your new sub.

All i can say is OMG!!!:eek:

I had no idea what a true sub was supposed to be able to do. I am utterly blown away! I set Audessy on my Onkyo 705, and was good to go.
I put on Matrix Reloaded on HD DVD because my former sub would make death sounds whenever I played this movie because it is so LFE rich.

The Hsu handled it like a champ. I can now feel the vibrations from the ships landing now, than hearing them!!

This is the best $800 I have ever spent! I am a HSU man for life now.:D

I doubt you'd be less impressed with other available choices but I'm still happy for you. Congrats.