It's getting down to crunch time as I know my current bulb probable does not have more than 6 months of life left, providing it makes it to 3000 hours. I have owned an Infocus 4805 for 3 years now and it has been an awesom pj. I project onto a 106" screen and in the process of buildiing a 123" screen. I feed the thing a blue ray signal or any HD and the picture is just great.

But as I said it's time is nearing the end.

So as we all know reading thread after thread causes my brain to numb. I know there are many great pj out there but I want to make sure that I don't get into the wrong one, if at all possible. I have been reading about the LCD pj and like the lens shifting ability, contrast and such. But since I have owned a DLP I am a little concerned about LCD. I also read LCD panels can have problems with color staining and dust blubs because they are not sealed systems. 1080p is getting down in price that makes it a lot more affordable but will I really notice that big of a difference on a 123" screen 14' back? If not should I go for just a 720p. I have thought about getting my hands on a infocus 7210 because of the darkchip 3 and they can be had for a good price. Or do I go into a mits 4900 LCD 1080p or Optima HD80 DLP 1080p.

Man this drives me crazy

Yeah I know many of these questions have been asked in so many threads so I am hoping I can narrow it down for myself in just one thread.

Thanks in advance

I went from DLP to LCD and have no regrets. Go for the Mits 4900, I don't think there's a better bargain out there at present!

123" screen? Are you going to have some gain from it?

123" at 1.0 gain or less and the HC4900 is getting iffy, especially as the lamp ages.

...I have thought about getting my hands on a infocus 7210 because of the darkchip 3 and they can be had for a good price. Or do I go into a mits 4900 LCD 1080p or Optima HD80 DLP 1080p.

Good choices, all around. You've done your research. :)

My personal choice would be the SP7210 given your parameters.

John denver: The gain on my screen is 1.16 and my theater can be completely dark

Spyder: Yeah I like all of them too but the reason I have considered LCD is mainly the lens shift ability. My HT is 18x27 and the projector is mounted about 16' back from the screen(currently) I have a beam tha goes across the room that drops down about 14" in front of of the pj. Keep in mind the pj is about 3' back from the beam. This is where I was considering LCD lens shift. Right now my pj drops about 14" down from the ceiling and my mount allows me to angle it up down side to side which allows for min keystoning.

Bah. I hate, hate, hate misconvergence. That and while all projectors have their problems, the 'built in' degeneration factor in LCD's with their progressively deteriorating polarizers would keep me away from LCD's like the plaque. You would not be disappointed with the HD80.

There is a bit of a difference between the "look" of a DLP and an LCD though. I don't know that I can really describe it. Perhaps the LCD looks a little more... "edgy"? Not that it's a bad thing, just different.

I was initially very underwhelmed by the 4900's black levels after coming from a machine similar to your 4805. I then went up from a 71" to a 91" screen and now the lamp has over 100 hours on it. Perhaps these two things in conjunction with your eyes probably just adapting over a period of a month has me wondering what I was ever disappointed with. :) I can't say the shadow details and black levels are great due to the low native contrast ratio. but I'm certainly satisfied.

The longer I go with a machine like the 4900 I realize that it's forte is a bright, razor sharp image that is very well suited for HDTV and gaming with some non critical movie viewing thrown in as well. If you are any kind of a video purist that really eyes your black levels, shadow detail and absense of image noise while watching a movie- then you best look elsewhere or at least try a 4900 from someone with a generous return policy.

The motorized zoom, focus and lens shift is pretty cool. After you get things setup and aligned you don't really use it though. I know some are doing a "poor mans CIH" with the power zoom and shift features and I suppose that would make it a bigger deal.

No misconvergence on my unit- even at maximum lens shift...

I find it hard to watch a LCD pj after extended viewing on a DLP. Just doesnt look right.

the 4900 will be way too dim for you.

The 7210 for $999 would have been your best bet, but hard to find one now.

Scooterdog,

I just upgraded my 4805 with the Epson Home Cinema 720. The LCD definitely has a different look to it but overall I am very happy. So much more detail and the blacks are much darker on the new Epson. My home setup is very much like yours, projector at 16 feet, 110" screen, seating at around 14 feet. I decided the premium for 1080P wasn't worth it for me at this time and now that I see the image 720P gives me I am sure I made the right decision for me.

I find it hard to watch a LCD pj after extended viewing on a DLP. Just doesnt look right.

the 4900 will be way too dim for you.

The 7210 for $999 would have been your best bet, but hard to find one now.

Nah Ive used the 4900 on a 120" screen, at his range the output is fine in reg mode, unless he's got some ambient light. I saw the 7210 too, its nice but it isnt any brighter...and its loud.

scooterdog, I don't believe there has been a single person who came from the 4805 to the 7210 that was disappointed, myself included. You will love the PQ. Be cautious of PJs that were designed for the entry level budget market vs. those that were designed for the high end market. There are still too many negatives associated with LCD FP technology and I do not like the look of their PQ.

scooterdog, I don't believe there has been a single person who came from the 4805 to the 7210 that was disappointed, myself included. You will love the PQ. Be cautious of PJs that were designed for the entry level budget market vs. those that were designed for the high end market. There are still too many negatives associated with LCD FP technology and I do not like the look of their PQ.

Agreed. I also went from the 4805 to the 7210. Extraordinary, commanding image. And no tweaking necessary other than an ND2 filter for the first couple hundred hours. If it's not directly over your head (noise factor) then you simply cannot go wrong with the 7210 if you enjoyed the look the 4805 gave you. Best deal out there (if you can find one).

Nah Ive used the 4900 on a 120" screen, at his range the output is fine in reg mode, unless he's got some ambient light. I saw the 7210 too, its nice but it isnt any brighter...and its loud.

You mean it isn't listed as being any brighter. IF doesn't bloat their numbers like others do.

You mean it isn't listed as being any brighter. IF doesn't bloat their numbers like others do.

No. Please actually read my post-Ive seen it, it looked the same.

Wow great responses guys and well appreciated.

I know I have been chomping the bit at going 1080p especially since I got into Blue Ray. heck the pic I get from BR just from my 4805 is truely amazing and when I look at screen shots of the new ones I go ga ga. I know the 7210 is a great machine but I guess I am conncerned with the noise. I have lived with my 4805's noise and would like something a bit more quiet. LCD's kinda of scare me and I don't want to end up in 2 years time with problems. I'm hoping thenew pj I get into will go for 5 years before another rereplacement. The optoma looks really promising to me as well. I know how fast 6 months will pass thats why I'm starting to look really hard now. Isn't the new optima HD81 a 3 chip DLP? if so by July or August it may just be down enough to fit into the budget otherwise I may just go the HD80. Anyone know how the noise factor is on the 80 ay compared to my good ol 4805

Wow great responses guys and well appreciated.

I know I have been chomping the bit at going 1080p especially since I got into Blue Ray. heck the pic I get from BR just from my 4805 is truely amazing and when I look at screen shots of the new ones I go ga ga. I know the 7210 is a great machine but I guess I am conncerned with the noise. I have lived with my 4805's noise and would like something a bit more quiet. LCD's kinda of scare me and I don't want to end up in 2 years time with problems. I'm hoping thenew pj I get into will go for 5 years before another rereplacement. The optoma looks really promising to me as well. I know how fast 6 months will pass thats why I'm starting to look really hard now. Isn't the new optima HD81 a 3 chip DLP? if so by July or August it may just be down enough to fit into the budget otherwise I may just go the HD80. Anyone know how the noise factor is on the 80 ay compared to my good ol 4805


Optoma doesn't make any 3-chip DLP's. If rainbows aren't an issue (and it's very rarely an issue with 5x or 6x wheels), then IMHO DLP is the way to go.

Optoma doesn't make any 3-chip DLP's. If rainbows aren't an issue (and it's very rarely an issue with 5x or 6x wheels), then IMHO DLP is the way to go.

Sorry I think you misunderstood. I meant the TI Darkchip 3. I thought this was a 3 chip design...anyone?

Wow great responses guys and well appreciated.

I know I have been chomping the bit at going 1080p especially since I got into Blue Ray. heck the pic I get from BR just from my 4805 is truely amazing and when I look at screen shots of the new ones I go ga ga. I know the 7210 is a great machine but I guess I am conncerned with the noise. I have lived with my 4805's noise and would like something a bit more quiet. LCD's kinda of scare me and I don't want to end up in 2 years time with problems. I'm hoping thenew pj I get into will go for 5 years before another rereplacement. The optoma looks really promising to me as well. I know how fast 6 months will pass thats why I'm starting to look really hard now. Isn't the new optima HD81 a 3 chip DLP? if so by July or August it may just be down enough to fit into the budget otherwise I may just go the HD80. Anyone know how the noise factor is on the 80 ay compared to my good ol 4805

Let me say this about the 1080p I've experienced: after having the Mits 4900 and the Epson 1080UB for some extended periods and then "downgrading" to the 720p Infocus 7210, I honestly feel like I see more on the 720p. Shadow detail is just SO MUCH BETTER...what good are the extra pixels if they're an amorphous gray blob?

Resolution ain't everything, even when watching Blu Ray and HD DVD. Once you reach 720p contrast becomes much more important that extra pixels, at least in my experience.

Let me say this about the 1080p I've experienced: after having the Mits 4900 and the Epson 1080UB for some extended periods and then "downgrading" to the 720p Infocus 7210, I honestly feel like I see more on the 720p. Shadow detail is just SO MUCH BETTER...what good are the extra pixels if they're an amorphous gray blob?

Resolution ain't everything, even when watching Blu Ray and HD DVD. Once you reach 720p contrast becomes much more important that extra pixels, at least in my experience.

Carl Zeiss lens, anyone? :D

As Kras said, "One of these things is not like the other..." :)

Oh for Crissakes, why can't people just admit that with the 4900 Mits hit a home run? The PJ does so many things right, and for the majority of people there will be NO ISSUE with the contrast and shadow detail, I'm sure! Unless you have a bat-cave the great contrast numbers on some PJs will not mean a significantly better image, but the higher resolution, sharp picture, quiet operation, and terrific placement flexibitity and user convenience of the Mits will be head and shoulders above most of the competition. In case you forgot, it's available for UNDER $1400 after rebate! Face it, Mits done good with this one!

Sorry I think you misunderstood. I meant the TI Darkchip 3. I thought this was a 3 chip design...anyone?

The HD81 uses a single Darkchip3 chip, and the HD80 uses a single Darkchip2 chip. They are different revisions of TI's DLP chips. In theory, the Darkchip3 should be a little better, but there are many other factors affecting image quality (lens, processor, etc).

I heard a rumor that the HD80 Darkchip2 was actually a larger one (the chips come in various physical 'sizes') --- .9" vs .8" or smaller, then other Darkchip2's. Though bigger is usually not more desireable in semiconductors, this may be what accounts for the HD80 being so bright (bigger mirrors can gather and reflect more light).

Anyway, all things being equal, a single chip DLP is sharper then a 3-chip DLP since with the single chip there is no chance of the colors being out of alignment like there is with seperate chips for the primary colors. There are other advantages with 3 chip units, but that's a seperate discussion, and a much higher price range.

Scooterdog,

I just upgraded my 4805 with the Epson Home Cinema 720. The LCD definitely has a different look to it but overall I am very happy. So much more detail and the blacks are much darker on the new Epson. My home setup is very much like yours, projector at 16 feet, 110" screen, seating at around 14 feet. I decided the premium for 1080P wasn't worth it for me at this time and now that I see the image 720P gives me I am sure I made the right decision for me.

I'd like to hear more about your comparison, I've had a SP4805 and loved it, The Epson HC 720 has me concerned over screen door and black levels. At $999 if you can find one, if it compares to say a SP7205 and maybe a tad under the SP7210 then the quite fan and warranty for 2 years and the fact that you could then put it on the bay and get half what you paid has me looking harder at it. I just can't stand the blue look of the older LCD blacks, but I have seen a few of the Epsons that were last years that mad me think they were DLP until I realized they were lcd(very rich colors) so I'm open to lcd but only if it lives up to every dollar I pay for it. Screen door is not good for me either I sit 1.2x seating distance.

Oh for Crissakes, why can't people just admit that with the 4900 Mits hit a home run? The PJ does so many things right, and for the majority of people there will be NO ISSUE with the contrast and shadow detail, I'm sure! Unless you have a bat-cave the great contrast numbers on some PJs will not mean a significantly better image, but the higher resolution, sharp picture, quiet operation, and terrific placement flexibitity and user convenience of the Mits will be head and shoulders above most of the competition. In case you forgot, it's available for UNDER $1400 after rebate! Face it, Mits done good with this one!

I have seen the HC5000, supposed to be better than the HC4900, not impress whatsoever. Not sure what Mits did right here, but I just don't like the look of LCD PJs and maybe that is why.

The 4900 is a fine projector.

The biggest problem I have with it is the contrast. I think it's noticeable to anyone who's seen a superior projector with better contrast. It's a BIG difference...and considering you can get superior contrast for cheaper than the already "cheap" $1400 price (which, it should be noted is after a mail in rebate...you'll be paying the full retail upfront), the price isn't as good a deal as many seem to indicate, at least for me.

Sharp? Sure, but the contrast hurts this in scenes that aren't bright and we all know that not all scenes are bright.

I don't think the assertion that most people won't notice the contrast deficiencies is accurate. Most people who haven't seen better won't notice, sure, but most people who've seen superior contrast will notice the 4900's lack here. It's not subtle. And it's not just in dark scenes...light scenes have more depth and 3D feel. I don't like it when people trivialize this vital part of the picture.

Easy placement? Absolutely. But once you figure out a way to place your DLP you're all set. Only set up once. If you're constantly having to move your projector or just find it absolutely impossible to make a DLP without lens shift work in your room, then yeah, the easy placement becomes a more obvious advantage.

And, as I said above, the resolution doesn't mean much when the contrast negates it. I see more on my 720p DLP.

I'm not trying to hate on the LCD, and I did enjoy my time with the 4900. Now that I've seen a good DLP for less, I'm not turning back. It's still a fine projector but it's no homerun.

Let's get real here, we're not talking PJ reviewers who see a hundred PJs in a years time. Most people are lucky to own one or two per 3 year period, and if they have some videophile friends maybe they see two more! No one would turn down the picture of a 1080P projector, regardless of make. Thumbing your nose at the 4900 is just sour grapes, for those who spent double (or more!) on a 1080 pj with incrementally better blacks, or worse, on a 720 machine with hyped contrast figures. Real world, real results, until a machine appears with better features and a demonstrably beter picture for the same price then the Mits 4900 is the winner!

at 1.2 I would stay away from the epson 720. go DLP at 720P or get the ax200 or mits 4900. at 1.5 and over... the Epson 720 is fine. But I recommend 1.8 to 2.0 to get the keep the SDE out of the picture. I may return my Epson 720 because I have an infocus 7210 that I am going to do a side by side with. everybody and there brother says I will keep the 7210 and want to return the epson 720. I will update this when I get the 7210.

I'd like to hear more about your comparison, I've had a SP4805 and loved it, The Epson HC 720 has me concerned over screen door and black levels. At $999 if you can find one, if it compares to say a SP7205 and maybe a tad under the SP7210 then the quite fan and warranty for 2 years and the fact that you could then put it on the bay and get half what you paid has me looking harder at it. I just can't stand the blue look of the older LCD blacks, but I have seen a few of the Epsons that were last years that mad me think they were DLP until I realized they were lcd(very rich colors) so I'm open to lcd but only if it lives up to every dollar I pay for it. Screen door is not good for me either I sit 1.2x seating distance.

Let's get real here, we're not talking PJ reviewers who see a hundred PJs in a years time. Most people are lucky to own one or two per 3 year period, and if they have some videophile friends maybe they see two more! No one would turn down the picture of a 1080P projector, regardless of make. Thumbing your nose at the 4900 is just sour grapes, for those who spent double (or more!) on a 1080 pj with incrementally better blacks, or worse, on a 720 machine with hyped contrast figures. Real world, real results, until a machine appears with better features and a demonstrably beter picture for the same price then the Mits 4900 is the winner!

This isn't sour grapes. I could still own the 4900 right now if I had wanted to. And, again, I'm not saying it's a bad projector and that the people who own/like it don't know what they're looking at...I'm saying they either prefer the look of LCD over DLP in general or they're making sacrifices at the alter of resolution. I think it's more of the latter than the former.

You don't have to be a videophile to notice the difference. And if you're plopping down this kind of money (even if it is a "cheap" $1400) for a projector, you're at least one kind of videophile.

No one would turn down a 1080p pj at that price because they don't understand that 1080p isn't the only thing that makes a picture. The fact that it's 1080p doesn't matter much unless one is making a very large screen with close seating distance (and some folks are still seeing pixel structure). The reason I bought it to begin with was I was seeing some SDE from my seating distance...sure, the 1080p helped with that, but at the expense of my dark scene viewing.

We're not talking about spending "double" for a 720p DLP. We're talking the same price and less. And the contrast numbers are not hyped...in the case of DLP they're actually real as opposed to the claims of the 4900/other LCD's using irises. In the case of the 4900 the iris was horribly noticeable in action and I wasn't the only one who noticed it.

I'm basing all my talk on these projectors based on real world, real results. I haven't measured a single thing. I would have been (and was) fine recommending the 4900 to anyone until I got the 7210 for $400 cheaper (after the Mits rebate; a cool grand cheaper up front) with a picture that blew away (see, I can use hyperbole, too) the 4900.

Hey, I'm glad you're enjoying your 7210, good luck with it. It certainly wouldn't be my choice, but to each their own. The small offset of the 7210 would require a drop tube for me to ceiling mount it without having my screen too high, which would place it right above my head. The loud fan would then be even more annoying, as I hate the sound of loud fans to begin with! The review I read spoke of lackluster color saturation and excessive dithering, but if contrast is your main goal I guess you could ignore this. The point is, no PJ is perfect, and we all must choose our poison. I would much rather have a quiet, flexible, higher rez machine with excellent color and motorized control of all lens functions. Trading away all that for the sake of higher contrast doesn't work for me. So you may be right about some people placing resolution above all else, but don't, in turn, get overly hung up at "the alter of contrast"!

you're taking it to the other extreme.

The color on my 7210 is spot on straight out of the box. Same as the 4900, except it looks richer due to the improved contrast. I haven't noticed any dithering (though, I thought we were talking about non-videophile viewing ;) ). The only adjustment I had to make was an easy color adjustment that's already laid out in the 7210 thread (the 66/39 settings) and they only need to be used on some HDMI inputs...but when used I get the same beautiful, colorful image. The reviewer you read probably did not make that easy adjustment and can't be faulted for it; I would not have known if I hadn't read the thread.

Noise and placement (I'm using a drop tube) are a problem. Already admitted. They are minor to me.

I'm not trading anything away for higher contrast.

And the 7210 isn't the only 720p machine out there in this price range. Heck, we don't even know if the 7210 will be available much more now as woot seems to have run out. I hear similar things about the performance of the Sharp DT-500/510. There's also, of course, the Marantz and the Sharp 12K. I'm sure there are others who can suggest similar machines in this price range.

I've looked at the Sharp 12K and the DT-500, and both came up lacking. You need to understand that to many, including me, placement issues and noise are far more important than eeking out the last bit of contrast. As I said, I'm glad you like your PJ, it just isn't for me. Since you are able to overlook these problems it would seem you found your ideal PJ. Here's one example I just went through, my 96" screen was mounted at the height required for my Optoma PJ to square up without keystoning. My wife never liked the location, she said it was too low. Last week I decided to surprise her by raising the screen. After raising it up about 8 inches I simply dialed in the picture with my Epsons lens shift, took all of 10 seconds. Once you get used to that kind of flexibility it makes it tough to go back to fixed lens DLPs. Too each his own, enjoy!

...but don't, in turn, get overly hung up at "the alter of contrast"!
Sorry- but even as a satisfied 4900 owner I'm gonna have to go with clever on this one. Two projectors side by side- both with accurate, well saturated colors and good black level performance, the one with the substantially higher native (not iris tricked up) contrast wins hands down, regardless of resolution advantage. So I do subsribe to the altar of contrast theory much more than the altar of resolution theory.

That said- I really am enjoying my "low contrast" 4900 for its positive elements, but I can clearly see its weaknesses and will live with them.

My $0.02 FWIW

Cheers!

The posts in this thread have put the nail in the coffin on me getting the HC4900. I cannot stand the grayish black and for me, contrast is a much bigger ticket than resolution.

I do however, need to replace my HD70 with something "better".... as soon as someone posts some real throw and offset information for the DT-510 and I confirm that it will fit well in my theater, I may jump on that.

In the meantime, I am still clueless on what to upgrade to.

Sorry- but even as a satisfied 4900 owner I'm gonna have to go with clever on this one. Two projectors side by side- both with accurate, well saturated colors and good black level performance, the one with the substantially higher native (not iris tricked up) contrast wins hands down, regardless of resolution advantage. So I do subsribe to the altar of contrast theory much more than the altar of resolution theory.

That said- I really am enjoying my "low contrast" 4900 for its positive elements, but I can clearly see its weaknesses and will live with them.

My $0.02 FWIW

Cheers!

that's my biggest problem with these conversations. The contention by many that there's a "marginal" difference in contrast is just plain wrong. It's significant.

There are trade offs with everything and you have to decide what's more important to you individually. I'd just rather people understand that side by side, you're going to probably see a better pic on most of the 720p DLP's; if you're willing to trade off on the difference for placement flexibility that's fine, but new folks to the game should understand that the picture difference isn't near as small as some like to indicate before they decide.

Placement flexibility with lens shift plus inflated LCD contrast numbers always sound mighty enticing, especially when people start reading about RBE and placement problems. For first time buyers, it's a lot to take in.

Yea, it's very rare that nubys or even the somewhat informed are disappointed by a decent DLP image, I mean look at the SP4805. They all have issues here or there but for now imo DLP for the bargain dollars is still supreme. Just my .02. I'll buy a LCD when the time is right, it's closing but it's not here yet.

I started out DLP but recently went to a Panny AX200 and I'm glad that I did. What bothers me the most about DLP is the mosquito noise. At the BOSE outlet store in my mall they have an Infocus IN82. When watching the picture I was reminded of why I went to LCD. Yes the ansi contrast is better but it is so distracting with the amount of noise in the picture. This is also a very expensive projector. I'm never going back to DLP.

mosquito noise is a huge issue with DLP, I think I'm headed up to my local Ultimate and make them fire up a LCD for me hopefully they have a 720P on the floor. Thats the final word thats always repeated and repeated and repeated - You need to SEE the pj your buying then you know for sure. I'm going to digg a little further on the Epson HC 720P I'd hate to not be current on my understanding of the newer LCD's.

...making sacrifices at the alter of resolution...

Thanks! You just made me spit up a bit of Coke on the keyboard! :D

With permission, I'm going to steal that and put it in my sig with a (slight modification). :)

...as soon as someone posts some real throw and offset information for the DT-510 and I confirm that it will fit well in my theater, I may jump on that....
I waited around for that information on the 510 as well and was really close to pulling the trigger on it. I don't think you're going to see any info other than owner impressions, etc. It was an incremental upgrade from the 500 as far as I can tell and probably won't merit a professional review.

As far as I have been able to gather it is the same throw and offset as the 500. A very sort throw with low offset, especially compared to an H70. Check out the DT-500 projection calculator at PC and maybe scan the 500 thread for offset. Seems to me it was something on the order of 15% of image height as opposed to something like 30-33% for a typical Optoma DLP.

Now will a DT-510 be a substantial upgrade from an H70?? Hmmmm... I don't know about that. I would be interested to hear your feedback should you make the leap.

Cheers!

My Optoma had that great DLP contrast, and my Epson has the typical LCD blacks. Guess what, the Epson wins! Without a side by side comparison it just isn't a big deal, at least not to me. Enjoy your loud DLPs, with their annoying color wheel whine, color flashes, and absolutely horrendous placement issues (not all, but most). Whatever floats your boat!

I waited around for that information on the 510 as well and was really close to pulling the trigger on it. I don't think you're going to see any info other than owner impressions, etc. It was an incremental upgrade from the 500 as far as I can tell and probably won't merit a professional review.

As far as I have been able to gather it is the same throw and offset as the 500. A very sort throw with low offset, especially compared to an H70. Check out the DT-500 projection calculator at PC and maybe scan the 500 thread for offset. Seems to me it was something on the order of 15% of image height as opposed to something like 30-33% for a typical Optoma DLP.

Now will a DT-510 be a substantial upgrade from an H70?? Hmmmm... I don't know about that. I would be interested to hear your feedback should you make the leap.

Cheers!

I managed to come across some material that explains the throw distance and offset for the DT-510. It's located HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=989743)

"We were (s)trolling along..."

If someone buries their head in the sand, is there a difference between black and grey? :confused:

"We were (s)trolling along..."

If someone buries their head in the sand, is there a difference between black and grey? :confused:

Oh please, "trolling"? Gimme a break! The OP was asking between the Mits 4900 and the Infocus 7210. I took the 4900 side, based on higher resolution, better color, much quieter operation, ultra-flexible mounting options, motorized lens control, and a stupid good price. You and your DLP cheerleader crew went with the 7210, a 3 year old design with a loud fan, dithering issues, no lens shift, rigid mounting requirements, and lower rez. Your entire argument hinges on "contrast", which in most rooms isn't a big deal. Yes, a higher contrast machine can look terrific in a batcave, but in real rooms with white ceilings and light colored walls the difference is really only incremental. Be honest with the OP, most would find the Mits superior after comparing both with a list of pros and cons. Unless, of course, the only thing you care about is contrast...!

Major Tom to Ground Control:

"It's all true. The 4900 looks pretty darn good here on the surface of the sun, light cascading all around us. Being surrounded by the pitch-black backdrop of space, the darkness now scares us to death, so it's comforting to only endure shades of grey inside our little capsule. It's dead silent, which is quite soothing amidst all the LFE pouring out of our twin turbine subs. Since the artificial gravity only works sporadically and it's impossible to move our dilithium-encased screen pre-mounted by NASA, we're pleased that we can move our projector around every five minutes. The higher resolution allows us to watch cable TV...uh, I mean...play our Wii...oops, I meant...view HD-DV...oh, nope, the discs got tossed out as we lifted off...hey, I got it now...it really, really makes a huge difference on those two PS3 games we brought along that actually do 1080p."

"P.S. We've also enclosed a video for our families and other loved ones in case we die out here. Please show it to them on NASA's DLP monitors. It's the least you can do in our honor."

End of Transmission.

Major Tom to Ground Control:

"It's all true. The 4900 looks pretty darn good here on the surface of the sun, light cascading all around us. Being surrounded by the pitch-black backdrop of space, the darkness now scares us to death, so it's comforting to only endure shades of grey inside our little capsule. It's dead silent, which is quite soothing amidst all the LFE pouring out of our twin turbine subs. Since the artificial gravity only works sporadically and it's impossible to move our dilithium-encased screen pre-mounted by NASA, we're pleased that we can move our projector around every five minutes. The higher resolution allows us to watch cable TV...uh, I mean...play our Wii...oops, I meant...view HD-DV...oh, nope, the discs got tossed out as we lifted off...hey, I got it now...it really, really makes a huge difference on those two PS3 games we brought along that actually do 1080p."

"P.S. We've also enclosed a video for our families and other loved ones in case we die out here. Please show it to them on NASA's DLP monitors. It's the least you can do in our honor."

End of Transmission.
Who here DOESNT have a 1080 source? Hell there are 1080 sources over broadcast. Also, the lamps in DLPs are much more expensive.

Major Tom to Ground Control:

"It's all true. The 4900 looks pretty darn good here on the surface of the sun, light cascading all around us. Being surrounded by the pitch-black backdrop of space, the darkness now scares us to death, so it's comforting to only endure shades of grey inside our little capsule. It's dead silent, which is quite soothing amidst all the LFE pouring out of our twin turbine subs. Since the artificial gravity only works sporadically and it's impossible to move our dilithium-encased screen pre-mounted by NASA, we're pleased that we can move our projector around every five minutes. The higher resolution allows us to watch cable TV...uh, I mean...play our Wii...oops, I meant...view HD-DV...oh, nope, the discs got tossed out as we lifted off...hey, I got it now...it really, really makes a huge difference on those two PS3 games we brought along that actually do 1080p."

"P.S. We've also enclosed a video for our families and other loved ones in case we die out here. Please show it to them on NASA's DLP monitors. It's the least you can do in our honor."

End of Transmission.

Wow, are you weird or what.....?

"Sherman, set the way-back machine to 2003". "No one really knew about hi-def then, and so our lower rez PJ will still be worth something!" "Don't forget the earplugs, as the fan noise is deafening." "And bring along the calculator, as we'll still have to figure out the angle of descent of the projected image in order to mount our screen." "Golly Mister Peabody, why don't we just stay here and get a Mits 4900?" "Sherman, you silly goose, it's ALL about the contrast!"

again, just to sum things up without the hyperbole:

4900:

positives - 1080p (that, despite what many will try to push, doesn't mean nearly as much as you would think), lens shift, quiet, excellent color (until those pesky scenes with less light show up again...and again and again and again in normal viewing), sharp.

negatives - poor contrast in everything but bright scenes. LCD haze. Milky gray blacks. Much less shadow detail. In summation, on everything but bright scenes an inferior picture to many DLP's with higher contrast (or if you'd like to make the price jump, the Epson 1080UB from the LCD side of things, which performs admirably compared to the DLP's).

7210 [or, other equal 720p DLP's to or lower than 4900's price range of "$1400" (that's still before a MIR, so, again it's significantly more upfront)]:

positives - excellent contrast, great color (please stop listing that as a weakness for the 7210, it simply isn't), better depth/3D look to the picture, sharp, no LCD haze.

negatives - placement issues, loud fan (it's there on the 7210, can't speak for it on the other 720p DLP models), some complaints of dithering (again, haven't seen that myself). There's always the rainbow issue if you're sensitive to that. Some people are unlucky enough to have their color wheel whine...never had it happen for me but it sounds about proportional to the number of people who have dust blobs on their LCD's.

As for the batcave comments, I simply don't know what to make of them. So, it's ok to buy a projector you'll know will throw an inferior picture with the lights out if you know it'll look similar to most other projectors with the lights on (in other words, bad)? Even if you're buying it over a projector that will look better if you can control your light (and "batcave" is the extreme...at night any living room can come close to a "batcave" by simply turning off all the lamps)?

And contrast in "most rooms isn't a big deal"? Do you have glow in the dark paint?

This thread got bigger than I thought.

I can see that we have folks from both camps with great opinions and offerings. This has been my dilemma. To make matters worse its hard to find a dealer near me that has both. You see there are more cows in my neck of the woods then people so I highly rely on the feedback from all of you. My biggest concern is as follows between the two

DLP
Fan Noise
Placement

Remember I have been living with a 4805 for 2 1/2 years and would love something a little more quite. If the noise is less than the 4805 and its DLP thats ok. I really like the way DLP looks, but thats what I have and have not seen in person a LCD

LCD

LCD panel burn
No light tunnel
Possible dust issues.

Now the pics I have seen of the Mits are awesome no doubt. The 7210, all though a good machine everyone is right, it is a 3 year old product. What I have not heard much about for comparison reasons is how does the Optoma HD80 stack up to the 4900 given my concern. Man there are pros and cons to both and it is driving me nuts

I recently updated my InFocus IN72 (a 480p DLP projector similar to the 4805) with the 4900 and I am very pleased. I really love the picture that the 4900 puts out! I also am projecting on a 120 inch screen and sit about 15 feet back. I can’t say enough good things about my experience so far in the 6 weeks and 120 hours I have on my projector at this point.

After saying that though, and having read the entire 4900 thread there have been some issues with some people’s projectors though and that should be a concern. If you do buy one, make sure you get one from a place that has a good return policy because although the vast majority have no problems, there are still many that do and you would want to be able to get a replacement. The customer service from Mitsubishi is first rate - they actually called me the day after I filled out my online registration to make sure that I liked my projector and to ask if I had any questions!

So many excellent points already made above. Preference plays such a huge part. but value is also inportant. After two SD DLP projectirs, I took my time picking the best for the buck. I am completely happy with my decision to purchase a Panny LCD AX100U, The picture is stunning right out of the box. It is so so very versatile, witha high contrasrt ration (6000:1), big lumen output, and the smoothest most natural picture I have ever seen under $4000.00. Resoloution is hugely over rated, and many 720P projectors produce superior images than other 1080 projectors. So, if you are uncertain what to do, and money matters, pick up an AX100 for around $1000.00 bucks. At around 400 hours the iris fails and you invest $25.00 to ship it to Heartland for a new iris, lens and filter cleaning, firmware update, and adjutment up to specs.All my test patterns are perfect now. I would have paid $200.00 or more for the 6 month tune up!. For fun, I compare my 4805 to the AX100 for SD and to my delight the AX100 does a splendid job. This in my opinion is the bargain of the decade. I use a 150 inch custom screen, 'Silverscreen" grey, at 20 feet, fed by an Oppo 981 and a Toshiba HD DVD, and Denon 2910.
Forget about resoloution. It is all about picture quality naturalness (contrast and color rendition), and fearures like the lens shift, silent fan, econo mode, and a complete tune up for $25,00! Don't buy the AX200, fnd an AX100, Barry.

The higher rez of the Mits is just icing on the cake, as it offers all that the Panny does and more. The important point here is that so many people are reporting how pleased they are with LCD machines in general. Just like me, they found the pictures thrown to be perfectly fine, and saw no need to suffer with all the limitations of DLP for the sake of added contrast. Forget that junk about milky gray blacks and LCD haze, these are new generation machines that will look really great. Leave 3 year old DLPs to those diehards that still think vinyl is better than CDs!

This thread got bigger than I thought....

LOL. And there we have it ladies and gentlemen... :)

If you hang around here long enough, you'll see your share of threads such as this one where the OP asks an innocent question looking for advice on what to buy. Should the potential purchase options straddle the DLP/LCD fence- the inevitable Hatfield vs McCoy feud boils over. It gets to be good entertainment after awhile, as long as people are keeping it civil.

No one is right, no one is wrong- it's just differences of opinions.

So is everything as clear as an unmudded lake for you now laddy? :D

It's amazing how many 4900 owners have to justify their purchase of a low grade LCD PJ by blasting a PJ they have not seen. Check it out for yourself, not only does the 4900 have many issues of it's own (read the reviews and check the thread), it has all the issues inherent of older LCD machines. Those who say 3-year old PJ cannot be better than it are only lying to themselves.

It's amazing how many 4900 owners have to justify their purchase of a low grade LCD PJ by blasting a PJ they have not seen. Check it out for yourself, not only does the 4900 have many issues of it's own (read the reviews and check the thread), it has all the issues inherent of older LCD machines. Those who say 3-year old PJ cannot be better than it are only lying to themselves.

I think you are being a little harsh. The 4900 is not a low grade projector. The 4900 is definitely not perfect either. It obviously is not the be all end all of projectors, but let's be honest no projector in the 3K and under price range is perfect. I had originally budgeted $3K on a projector and screen, but have since had to re-adjust that budget to $2K. I ended up buying the 4900 since it met my needs and budget. Being a heavy Blu-Ray and HD DVD watcher, I wanted a 1080p projector since I will be sitting close enough to notice the difference (approx 10ft w a 100" screen). I wanted a projector that had solid color accuracy and one that offered flexibility with regards to placement. Since the projector was to be located very close to the main seating I wanted a unit that was very quiet. The 4900 met all those requirements.

There is no question that the 4900 is somewhat lacking with regards to black levels. However, it is not abominable either. Most of the reviews that I read rated it as average. If you are somebody who really likes dark black levels, then the 4900 is most likely not the right projector for you. However, it is above average with regards to brightness and image sharpness. It also handles shadow details well. It does not support 24fps, or HDMI 1.3, as some other 1080p projectors do, but again, it is priced more favorably.

If budget were no object, I would have gotten the new Epson 1080p UB or perhaps the upcoming Sony VW40. But, I am very happy with the 4900 at $1399. At the end of the day there are a ton of great projectors out there. Each have advantages and disadvantages. As long as someone does their research and knows what they need and want in a projector, there is no reason to bash them for their choice. Whether it be DLP or LCD. 720p or 1080p.

Well said!

Having owned - serviced - calibrated - and having three projectors hanging from my ceiling in my theater I can safely say that it takes a 'high end' DLP like my sharp 20000 to give a significant advantage to choosing a DLP machine over the amazing lineup of modern 1080p LCD models.

Sorry for mentioning my sharp 20000 in the under 3000$ threads but the DLP projectors being pushed here are 'NOT' better than the upper end 1080p LCD units.

I have had 'loaners' hanging from my ceiling so I can give a very accurate representation of just what is a good projector for a entry level person which is looking for an honest and unbiased opinion. There are just way too many 'biased people' on the forum to give a justifiable reason to go DLP or LCD from a pure subjective standpoint.

The Panasonic 200 hanging from my ceiling for the kids PS3 makes you wonder why the other models I have had cost so much.

JVC RS2

Panasonic AX2000

Marantz 15S1

Take the mits 4900 or the Epson UB. They will not be as negative on there performance as some may think.

Well said!

Having owned - serviced - calibrated - and having three projectors hanging from my ceiling in my theater I can safely say that it takes a 'high end' DLP like my sharp 20000 to give a significant advantage to choosing a DLP machine over the amazing lineup of modern 1080p LCD models.

Sorry for mentioning my sharp 20000 in the under 3000$ threads but the DLP projectors being pushed here are 'NOT' better than the upper end 1080p LCD units.

I have had 'loaners' hanging from my ceiling so I can give a very accurate representation of just what is a good projector for a entry level person which is looking for an honest and unbiased opinion. There are just way too many 'biased people' on the forum to give a justifiable reason to go DLP or LCD from a pure subjective standpoint.

The Panasonic 200 hanging from my ceiling for the kids PS3 makes you wonder why the other models I have had cost so much.

JVC RS2

Panasonic AX2000

Marantz 15S1

Take the mits 4900 or the Epson UB. They will not be as negative on there performance as some may think.

Key words emphasized to obviously exclude the 4900 from the statement.

Comparing a $1,000 DLP against a $10,000 LCD is apples and oranges.

It's getting down to crunch time as I know my current bulb probable does not have more than 6 months of life left, providing it makes it to 3000 hours. I have owned an Infocus 4805 for 3 years now and it has been an awesom pj. I project onto a 106" screen and in the process of buildiing a 123" screen. I feed the thing a blue ray signal or any HD and the picture is just great.

But as I said it's time is nearing the end.

So as we all know reading thread after thread causes my brain to numb. I know there are many great pj out there but I want to make sure that I don't get into the wrong one, if at all possible. I have been reading about the LCD pj and like the lens shifting ability, contrast and such. But since I have owned a DLP I am a little concerned about LCD. I also read LCD panels can have problems with color staining and dust blubs because they are not sealed systems. 1080p is getting down in price that makes it a lot more affordable but will I really notice that big of a difference on a 123" screen 14' back? If not should I go for just a 720p. I have thought about getting my hands on a infocus 7210 because of the darkchip 3 and they can be had for a good price. Or do I go into a mits 4900 LCD 1080p or Optima HD80 DLP 1080p.

Man this drives me crazy

Yeah I know many of these questions have been asked in so many threads so I am hoping I can narrow it down for myself in just one thread.

Thanks in advance


I have owned a Mits 65"DLP 1080P RPTV for over 1yr and I have now owned a Mits 4900 projected over a 100" 16:9 screen. With total ambient light control the 4900 has excellent pq (just a notch below the DLP RPTV). I know I am comparing different display techs than what you asked.

I have never seen a DLP front projector, but my Mits 4900 provides an excellent picture and the size factor just blows my 65" DLP RPTV. Light control is the key here.

I did not answer your question, but I am giddy about the 4900.

gasdoc

Key words emphasized to obviously exclude the 4900 from the statement.

Comparing a $1,000 DLP against a $10,000 LCD is apples and oranges.

The "upper end" LCD he mentions is the Epson 1080UB, which is $2999, plus $200 rebate right now.

Dan

I've looked at the Sharp 12K and the DT-500, and both came up lacking

floridapoolboy, just wondering, what came up short for you on the 12000?

The epson 1080UB is one of the hottest projectors going at the moment.;)

The epson 1080UB is one of the hottest projectors going at the moment.;)

Seen it. Love it. Might buy it this week.

Dan

it's a great projector. If the CIH bug hadn't bit me I wouldn't have sold mine as I was pretty dang happy with it...though then I never would have discovered the 7210 and "deluded" myself ;) .

floridapoolboy, just wondering, what came up short for you on the 12000?


The 12000MII had some great reviews, but it had several issues for me. The fan noise was always commented on as being loud in all the reviews I read, for starters. The placement was problematic, because although the PJ has vertical lens shift, it still needed to be mounted within the screen limits, either high or low. This would mean a low ceiling mount for me using a drop tube, which would place the PJ that much closer to my head! Coupled with the huge size of the PJ (which would seem to indicate good noise control, but apparently not) the reviews all commented on a lack of lumens, limiting the screen size and/or requiring a HP screen. All in all, the great contrast wasn't worth the trade-offs for me.

I dont consider myself to be a audiophile but the picture quality on my VP4001 (DLP) blows away my friends AX100 (LCD).........the only advantage his AX has over mine is the lack of pixel visibility virtually from anywhere.

Frag

The "upper end" LCD he mentions is the Epson 1080UB, which is $2999, plus $200 rebate right now.

Dan

$1K versus $3K is quite a quantum leap. Thanks for the clarification.

$1K versus $3K is quite a quantum leap. Thanks for the clarification.

a very valid point in this discussion.

Trying to throw the 1080UB in with the 4900 isn't fair. The 1080UB is twice the price after rebate and it shows in it's performance. I have no problem with people comparing it to the DLP's discussed in this thread, but it's still twice to three times the price.

let's be honest no projector in the 3K and under price range is perfect.

Agreed, that is why it does not make sense when someone who has not seen the likes of PJs designed for 8K and above like the 7210 to blatantly attack it with the likes of a 4900. One can make arguments that it might be 3 years old or whatever, but the PQ of it or even a DC2 like the VP4001 will be much better than the 4900 and I make this claim after viewing the HC5000.


I wanted a 1080p projector since I will be sitting close enough to notice the difference (approx 10ft w a 100" screen).

Well, I sit about the same from the 7210 without the need for the 1080p resolution.

Say what you will, the 4900 was designed as an entry level 1080p PJ.

Agreed, that is why it does not make sense when someone who has not seen the likes of PJs designed for 8K and above like the 7210 to blatantly attack it with the likes of a 4900. One can make arguments that it might be 3 years old or whatever, but the PQ of it or even a DC2 like the VP4001 will be much better than the 4900 and I make this claim after viewing the HC5000.



Well, I sit about the same from the 7210 without the need for the 1080p resolution.

Say what you will, the 4900 was designed as an entry level 1080p PJ.

An entry level 1080 PJ in 2008 is a better buy than a 3 year old DLP design, regardless of original MSRP. Trotting out that argument is silly, it only shows how inflated the prices were 3 years ago! It was the LCD camp that drove prices down across the board, but even today machines like the Optoma H80 still have all the same limitations that the PJs had 3 years ago, when will they learn? These days people want affordable, quiet pjs with easy placement flexibility, great color and sharpness, and believable contrast, which the new LCDs deliver.
If you want to give all that up for your super contrast DLPs go ahead, but don't bash the rest of us who think that modern machines offer a better value.

Say what you will, the 4900 was designed as an entry level 1080p PJ.
I don't know that anyone was debating this... An entry level 1080p that has some very good qualities and features, but some weaknesses as well. :)

Cheers!

An entry level 1080 PJ in 2008 is a better buy than a 3 year old DLP design, regardless of original MSRP. Trotting out that argument is silly, it only shows how inflated the prices were 3 years ago! It was the LCD camp that drove prices down across the board, but even today machines like the Optoma H80 still have all the same limitations that the PJs had 3 years ago, when will they learn? These days people want affordable, quiet pjs with easy placement flexibility, great color and sharpness, and believable contrast, which the new LCDs deliver.
If you want to give all that up for your super contrast DLPs go ahead, but don't bash the rest of us who think that modern machines offer a better value.

Let's not go off and make this an argument. My main concern is with PQ, and hardly anything else that's why I have a drop tube from my 10 ft ceiling and for some reason, the so called loud noise this PJ has does not bother me one bit when I am viewing something on the screen. If these are the two limitations of the PJ (and from every single review, opinion etc), it is, then I am more than happy to live with it for what it offers. Bob Williams and his team did not set out to design an entry level PJ. Say what you will with the prices back then, but their design with components and technology used is top notch. I'm more than happy to live with DC3, all glass Carl Zeiss lens, DCDi, better shadow detail, no dust blobs, no mis-convergence, no haze, no milky blacks, no organic panels etc.) As I said, the PQ is most important in my decision. As Art said:

The HC4900 is economy version, costing significantly less, but, at the same time, offering rather mediocre black levels, more reminiscent of low cost 720p projectors than typical 1080p projectors.

the Mitsubishi HC4900, which definitely comes up short in both shadow detail and blacks.

No argument, you like your PJ, good luck with it! I was just trying to steer the OP towards newer technology, which I feel is a better value. If contrast was all I cared about I would have recommended a crt PJ, but who wants to live with such limitations just for contrast....!

I don't know that anyone was debating this... An entry level 1080p that has some very good qualities and features, but some weaknesses as well. :)

Cheers!

In terms of PQ, good color and sharpness. The point being, an entry level PJ will make sacrifices as this PJ has done and the weaknesses you referred to will we the deciding factor for a potential purchaser. It sure was something I could not live with as well as others who have posted in this thread.

$1K versus $3K is quite a quantum leap. Thanks for the clarification.

You mean $2800.

You're welcome. I guess I forgot that this is the UNDER $3000 projector forum. Silly me.

Dan

Unless you are only watching Blu-ray movies the biggest challenge is finding a good source. I personally think that spending money on processing equipment is a good investment. There is nothing more frustrating than spending 2k-3k on a projector and feeding it a compressed cable signal.

No argument, you like your PJ, good luck with it! I was just trying to steer the OP towards newer technology, which I feel is a better value.

If you like and value your so-called "newer technology" in the antiquated LCD world, good luck with it!

I also suppose a brand new Yugo beats out a 3 year-old Lamborghini by that same line of thinking.

You mean $2800.

You're welcome. I guess I forgot that this is the UNDER $3000 projector forum. Silly me.

Dan

Still, $1000 versus $2800 is an astronomical jump. No silliness involved. ;)

If you like and value your so-called "newer technology" in the antiquated LCD world, good luck with it!

Thanks! For the record, LCD is now the technology that is showing the greatest advances in performance, while simutaneously bringing prices down across the board. Without LCDs the current crop of affordable 1080P machines would be thin indeed!

Still, $1000 versus $2800 is an astronomical jump. No silliness involved. ;)

Your use of quantum and astronomical seem inappropriate for a 2-3X price difference. A bit much don't you think. :)

BTW, have you actually seen the Epsaon 1080 UB in action, live?

Dan

The 12000MII had some great reviews, but it had several issues for me. The fan noise was always commented on as being loud in all the reviews I read, for starters. The placement was problematic, because although the PJ has vertical lens shift, it still needed to be mounted within the screen limits, either high or low. This would mean a low ceiling mount for me using a drop tube, which would place the PJ that much closer to my head! Coupled with the huge size of the PJ (which would seem to indicate good noise control, but apparently not) the reviews all commented on a lack of lumens, limiting the screen size and/or requiring a HP screen. All in all, the great contrast wasn't worth the trade-offs for me.

Do you mean you considered it as an option for you but then never saw it in person? Thats too bad. For your next purchase, you should really try to demo yourself instead of blindly following reviews which may or may not be good.

I understand how each of us have different priorities.

Some are concerned mainly about the picture, and some with placement of the projector.

Thats too bad. For your next purchase, you should really try to demo yourself instead of blindly following reviews which may or may not be good.

What utopia do you live in? Maybe "The Land of Low Margins"...? The business model for most retailers will not support what you propose for low margin projectors.

If you had the luxury of said demo side by side, same source, same lighting, same screen....then make sure you purchase from that retailer....

Or more accurately make sure you DON'T buy from said retailer as they will not be in business for long, and thus will not be able to provide after sale support.

Do you mean you considered it as an option for you but then never saw it in person? Thats too bad. For your next purchase, you should really try to demo yourself instead of blindly following reviews which may or may not be good.

I understand how each of us have different priorities.

Some are concerned mainly about the picture, and some with placement of the projector.


When it comes to PJs the available demos are few and far between. In the case of the z12000MII they simply did not exist, period. Also, unlike speaker reviews, which only represent one person's subjective opinion on sound quality, a projector review is much more objective. If 2 or 3 reviews mention a loud fan, then the fan is loud! If the lumen output is measured as low, then it is a dim PJ. If the lens throw and offset won't work in your room, then it's a done deal. Unless you simply do not trust reviewers I don't see how using PJ reviews as a basis for research is a bad thing. In this case it really is the only way.

...and believable contrast, which the new LCDs deliver.

you've trotted this out a couple of times now and I just can't get over it.

If anything, the LCD's have trumped up contrasts made to look fantastic that are measured using tricks with irises that most people will turn off because they find them distracting...and even when they don't, the iris dims the entire image, not just the blacks.

The 4900 boasts a 7500:1 contrast ratio, I believe. It is nowhere near that in actual practice. I think cine4home actually measured it's native contrast without the iris in the 600:1 range (? it's been a while since I read that stuff, may be a little off on that number but definitely less than 1000:1).

I know you don't care about contrast; despite that, it's a vital part of the picture and we aren't the only ones who believe so, apparently, since LCD makers are falling all over themselves to publish trumped up contrast numbers to fool people into believing they're getting superior pictures.

Why don't you let others decide for themselves if the newest generation of LCDs are worthwhile? You state that "most people", but what you really mean is "you"! So many have posted about how happy they are with their new LCDs, including the 4900, what, are they lying or delusional? If you're a dyed in the wool DLP guy so be it, but let others choose what they want, without all the LCD bashing!

I'm not a dyed in the wool DLP guy. Look at my 1080UB post above.

I'm a dyed in the wool picture guy.

As you outlined above, I'd wager a good many folks who have LCD's haven't even had the chance to see a DLP in person. I've personally seen the Sanyo z4 (LCD), Mits HD1000U (DLP), Mits HC3000 (DLP), Mits HC4900 (LCD), Epson 1080UB (LCD), and Infocus 7210 (DLP) and the only LCD that even competes with the DLP's I've seen is the Epson 1080UB (and it competes admirably!).

I don't "hate" LCD. The 1080UB is a very definite step in the correct direction. I could own it without qualms (and did...the only qualm I had was non-picture related; it simply didn't do the stretch I needed for CIH). I "hate" inferior picture.

I'm not a dyed in the wool DLP guy. Look at my 1080UB post above.

I'm a dyed in the wool picture guy.

As you outlined above, I'd wager a good many folks who have LCD's haven't even had the chance to see a DLP in person. I've personally seen the Sanyo z4 (LCD), Mits HD1000U (DLP), Mits HC3000 (DLP), Mits HC4900 (LCD), Epson 1080UB (LCD), and Infocus 7210 (DLP) and the only LCD that even competes with the DLP's I've seen is the Epson 1080UB (and it competes admirably!).

I don't "hate" LCD. The 1080UB is a very definite step in the correct direction. I could own it without qualms (and did...the only qualm I had was non-picture related; it simply didn't do the stretch I needed for CIH). I "hate" inferior picture.

By the very nature of things there can be only one "best", so by extension you hate every PJ you've ever seen save one! Nice to hear that the Epson pleased you, maybe there's hope for you yet! All I was saying is that many (most?) people will be happy with the performance of the newest generation of LCDs, and so will be able to enjoy all the other features they offer as well. No, they aren't going to provide blacks that are superior to DLPs, but they will give "believable" contrast, which is all most people will require. Hard core videophiles need not apply!

By the very nature of things there can be only one "best", so by extension you hate every PJ you've ever seen save one! Nice to hear that the Epson pleased you, maybe there's hope for you yet! All I was saying is that many (most?) people will be happy with the performance of the newest generation of LCDs, and so will be able to enjoy all the other features they offer as well. No, they aren't going to provide blacks that are superior to DLPs, but they will give "believable" contrast, which is all most people will require. Hard core videophiles need not apply!

ok, you've finally exhausted me on this. This will be my last post in the discussion.

I wish you wouldn't only talk in extremes. The first sentence of the quoted post makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

I don't know what you mean by "believable" contrast. I've given up trying to understand that.

You don't have to be a hard core videophile to notice the differences between these projectors.

Come on, don't you speak english? "Believable" contrast means that, although it might not be as good as some, it still is sufficient to thoroughly enjoy the movie. In other words, while you could see the difference in a side by side comparison, in the real world of movie enjoyment it is simply not an issue. Get it? NOT AN ISSUE! The picture looks fine, the viewer enjoys the show, the PJ is a good value, the customer is happy...clear yet?

Your use of quantum and astronomical seem inappropriate for a 2-3X price difference. A bit much don't you think. :)

If 3X price differences were no biggie, we could freely throw a Toyota Corolla and a Lexus LS460 in the same ring and rate them on luxury, features, and performance. Or, if you prefer a PJ-raleted duel, the SP7210 could square off against a Zoombox and we'll call it a fair fight in regard to PQ. :rolleyes:

Yes, 3X price differences are a bit much.

Come on, don't you speak english? "Believable" contrast means that, although it might not be as good as some, it still is sufficient to thoroughly enjoy the movie. In other words, while you could see the difference in a side by side comparison, in the real world of movie enjoyment it is simply not an issue. Get it? NOT AN ISSUE! The picture looks fine, the viewer enjoys the show, the PJ is a good value, the customer is happy...clear yet?

Can you define the word "is" for us while you're at it? :rolleyes:

I guess I should just have brought home an old business PJ from work and be content with it. It'll completely suck at PQ, but what the heck, that's not important :rolleyes:

What utopia do you live in?

Two-rocks,
I live in what is called a "city".

Its really neat. See, it has a lot of people living in close proximity, so there are many different services to choose from. If you get a chance, you should try to visit one.

I had no shortage of pj's to look at. Literally, over a half-dozen or so places had demo's within a short drive of my house. I feel for you guys who cant demo first. Maybe try visiting a friend in a major city?

Hey scooterdog!

As the OP asking what you should get to replace your 4805... do you feel all your questions have been answered? LOL

:p:p:p:D

Or, if you prefer a PJ-raleted duel, the SP7210 could square off against a Zoombox and we'll call it a fair fight in regard to PQ. :rolleyes:

.

that would be a killer shoot out .:D

let me get the popcorn.

it may be true Lcd has come a long ways .

but it always seems it's great advancement in performance is being

compared to what ???

I believe the answer is DLP.

why is that??

cheers:)

Murph

If 3X price differences were no biggie, we could freely throw a Toyota Corolla and a Lexus LS460 in the same ring and rate them on luxury, features, and performance. Or, if you prefer a PJ-raleted duel, the SP7210 could square off against a Zoombox and we'll call it a fair fight in regard to PQ. :rolleyes:

Yes, 3X price differences are a bit much.

I know where you are coming from, don't get me wrong. Yes, 3x is a big difference. But we're not talking $10k vs $30k, it's $1k vs $3k. I consider that all within at least the same ballpark, and affordability of many. The $3k may be stretching it though.

What I keep thinking in my mind is the relative cost of the various models in this part of the forum. To me, I'm shocked that you now get good performance out of a $1k FP, when you can't even find a very good RP for that price. This is just my opinion, but the average consumer is expecting to pay $1500-$2500 for a RP system. I always expected to pay more a FP, but maybe that's just me. I look at it as a step up from RP. So when I see a $1k projector versus a $3k projector, cost is not nearly as important as performance. If it was $3k versus $9k, then yeah, cost would play a HUGE factor.

Dan

I had no shortage of pj's to look at. Literally, over a half-dozen or so places had demo's within a short drive of my house. I feel for you guys who cant demo first. Maybe try visiting a friend in a major city?

Different source material
different screen
Different enviornment
Calibration?
etc..
Oh, yeah - profit too.

A review by a credible source and the general consensus of the masses is not something to snuff.

Then to top it off you run out and buy from an internet retailer?

Got it city slicker? Or was it too hard to read over the siren noise?

If anything, the LCD's have trumped up contrasts made to look fantastic that are measured using tricks with irises that most people will turn off because they find them distracting...and even when they don't, the iris dims the entire image, not just the blacks.

...

I know you don't care about contrast; despite that, it's a vital part of the picture and we aren't the only ones who believe so, apparently, since LCD makers are falling all over themselves to publish trumped up contrast numbers to fool people into believing they're getting superior pictures.


Time out, DLP manufacturers are just as guilty of publishing "trumped up" contrast numbers, just like LCD and LCOS manufacturers. Let's also be clear that LCD manufacturers are not the only companies to use irises to increase their published contrast specifications. Take the Optoma HD81, which is a DC3 DLP that uses an iris as an example.

I am not taking sides in this DLP versus LCD discussion as I own BOTH and recognize the fact that BOTH have strengths and weaknesses over the other, as I am sure most of the reasonably minded people that read this forum understand. That said, let's stop with the misrepresentations and agree on this fact, shall we? :rolleyes:

Hey scooterdog!

As the OP asking what you should get to replace your 4805... do you feel all your questions have been answered? LOL

:p:p:p:D


Somehow this has gone much further then I ever anticipated.

Like I said early on. I have know way of seeing these technologies side by side so I ask honestly for opinion from those that have owned both and what they felt was the determining factor for moving from one tech to the other. I own a DLP but it is an older 480p and it has been great. Even when I play a BR disc or watch HD channels its awesome. This tells me I am missing out on the new hi rez pj and I know I have to make a move soon.

The discussion that lower cost models lack way to much has some truth. Take a 4900 and yeah it can be had for a great price but does that mean it can't compete with something that is a grand more...I don't know thats why I ask.

I want to get the best bang for my buck and something that will hold up for 4-5 years. When I bought my 4805 I took a leap of faith because it was the cheap kid on the block with some cool technology and I'm glad I did. Now I am in the same boat but there are crap load more options and my head is spinning. The ones I'm mainly interested in from what I can put together out of all of this are the Optoma HD80, Mits 4900 and the Epson HC1080u.

I just want honest opinions to help me out here. I don't care if one is 1000.00 more or less because cost does not always tell the whole story. Throwing in high end machines does not count. If you own one over the other why did you buy it. Cut and dry...Thanks it has been a great ride so far and can we all agree we love this stuff

Scooter, check out Jason's reviews in the above $3K forum (remember, everything is based on list here, so some of the PJs you will be interested in are technically in the other forum) and projectorreviews.com as well. Pay particular attention to the reviews on the three models you mention and you might research the new Sony VW40 as it is in the same category. The other thing to note is that you can glean good information by reading all of the reviews as often times, the reviewers will throw in a comparison to one or several of the projectors your mention.

...I want to get the best bang for my buck and something that will hold up for 4-5 years...

:eek: That's an awfully long commitment in the projector world! With that in mind, you can rule out the SP7210, as you'd always be inundated with resolution worshippers trying to convice you that you're missing out on something at 720p. Also, absolutely rule out the 4900, as you're bound to see something far, far (FAR!) superior in the next 24 months at the same price or less. After the Optoma H7X bulb debacle, ya takes yer chances with them.

Given your parameters, that leaves the Epson as your best choice as of today.

Thanks spyder. This is exactly the type of feedback that helps with the decision.

Yeah I know 4-5 years is a long time but I can see with a DLP getting this much out of with just a bulb replacement maybe two. Heree is the question regarding the 4-5 years. I know technologies will change some and we will see pj that once cost a lot more come down but in all honesty will I notice so much of an increase in pq on a 123" scren to jsutify having to change out in 2 years. Any feedback on the HD80 from Optoma?

I'll sell ya my Optoma H31 for $250. Low bulb hours, high contrast, perfect DVD reproduction. Let me know!

I'll sell ya my Optoma H31 for $250. Low bulb hours, high contrast, perfect DVD reproduction. Let me know!

Thanks for the offer but going into new 1080p machine lol

I'm not sure this dilemma will be around much longer. Just a few years ago most of the available projectors in all of the price ranges were DLPs. Today most of the big sellers are LCDs like Panasonic and Epson. The high end and expensive projectors now seem to be LCOS machines.

The 480 segment is rapidly dying for all technologies. The most favorably reviewed 1080 machines are LCOS. The high end 720s are mostly LCDs. Only in the bargain 720 market segment do DLPs seem to prosper.

My guess is that DLP will soon go the way of 8 Track tape, Beta video, vinyl LPs, and tube amplifiers. There are still hobbiests who praise the superiority of each of these defunct technologies. But it hardly matters if they aren't sold anymore.

Thanks for the offer but going into new 1080p machine lol


Good choice, resolution wins out over contrast!

I'm not sure this dilemma will be around much longer. Just a few years ago most of the available projectors in all of the price ranges were DLPs. Today most of the big sellers are LCDs like Panasonic and Epson. The high end and expensive projectors now seem to be LCOS machines.

The 480 segment is rapidly dying for all technologies. The most favorably reviewed 1080 machines are LCOS. The high end 720s are mostly LCDs. Only in the bargain 720 market segment do DLPs seem to prosper.

My guess is that DLP will soon go the way of 8 Track tape, Beta video, vinyl LPs, and tube amplifiers. There are still hobbiests who praise the superiority of each of these defunct technologies. But it hardly matters if they aren't sold anymore.

Many inaccuracies here. Many high end 720p are DLPs. What is Marantz technology of choice for all their 720p and new 1080p products? DLP may go the way of HD-DVD, not because it concedes anything in terms of PQ, but because budget manufacturers are desperately trying to make higher margins which they can only do with LCD it seems. Those with DLPs, especially with higher end units should thank their blessings that they have one. Even budget DLPs like the HC1500 are better than many entry level 1080p.

Let's get real here, we're not talking PJ reviewers who see a hundred PJs in a years time. Most people are lucky to own one or two per 3 year period, and if they have some videophile friends maybe they see two more! No one would turn down the picture of a 1080P projector, regardless of make. Thumbing your nose at the 4900 is just sour grapes, for those who spent double (or more!) on a 1080 pj with incrementally better blacks, or worse, on a 720 machine with hyped contrast figures. Real world, real results, until a machine appears with better features and a demonstrably beter picture for the same price then the Mits 4900 is the winner!

In your case it simply amounts to that love for one's own PJ is blind :rolleyes:

1080p is useless if you can't makeout the black details, its just gonna look like an edge enhanced hollow ghostly picture.

Wow! I only drop in to this forum every few months as I am settled in and happy now. I had the luxury of being able to demo almost every well known unit as I live in The Bay area. I had owned two DLP projectors, but chose an LCD projector for my home made 150 inch screen. I even got to bring several units home overnight to audition, but in my room, with my screen, the Panny AX100 gave me the natural movie like picture I was looking for. Price didn't matter much as I am a surgeon, but I don't like to pay more than is needed. I feel I have a natural movie like picture and my friends tell me my HD video is better than a theater! (I have a perfect room, with 100% control of light and everything, I mean everything is black. Viewing distance is 16 to 20 feet (2 rows of seats). My sources are Comcast HD (Motorola), where I watch lots of sports (720P), a Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player, and the Oppo 981 upconverting DVD player. I am in heaven and I didn't spend much. BTW, if you can find an AX100 now, they are about $1000.00 and they go in for an iris replacement and free tune up at around 1000 hours, which is a great freebie. This is just my experience, but I have had quite a bit of PJ exposure, and used to be a DLP person. The only important thing is that you like what you get and all the above arguments mean nothing, in my opinion. Best wishes, Barry.

If you like and value your so-called "newer technology" in the antiquated LCD world, good luck with it!

I also suppose a brand new Yugo beats out a 3 year-old Lamborghini by that same line of thinking.

And your argument is better. With your line of thinking. I suppose a four year old $15,000 720P plasma TV is better than a $4,000 1080P plasma. I mean the $15,000 TV was an expensive high end TV so it must be better than a cheap 1080P TV now.

Two-rocks,
I live in what is called a "city".

Its really neat. See, it has a lot of people living in close proximity, so there are many different services to choose from. If you get a chance, you should try to visit one.

I had no shortage of pj's to look at. Literally, over a half-dozen or so places had demo's within a short drive of my house. I feel for you guys who cant demo first. Maybe try visiting a friend in a major city?

You can have your big city. I will take the disadvantage of having to go to a big city to see projectors. I guess I will have to stick with my disadvantages such as looking out the back of my house and seeing a nice big lake. Another one of my major disadvantages is that long walk (200 feet) to my boat dock, flip a lever to lower my boat in the lake for wakeboarding and skiing. It is such a disadvantage to be able to do these things any day of the week. Something that many of you city dwellers only get to do on weekends or vacation. Just to let you know skiing during the week is 10 times better than on weekends. The lake is so smooth.

Hiya ScooterDog,

I also own a 4805, and am looking to upgrade to 1080P. ..Had been considering the Optima HD80, but then noticed that Infocus is releasing the X10, a 1080p DLP front projector for around $2200 SRP. While some will squawk at it's 'lowly' Darkchip 1 specs, Infocus has stated it is not the same TI Darkchip 1 technology that was used in the 4805. One of the things I have really liked about my Infocus is it has excellent gamma tracking and pretty decent color right out of the box, spec'd close to D6500. So I will be very interested to hear some reviews on the X10, which I believe ships in a week or so...