Hi all-

I have had a Mac Mini (intel core duo 1.67 GHz) hooked into my entertainment system for quite a while now. Indeed, I've been using it as a "Super AppleTV" for longer than there has been an AppleTV.

Now that the AppleTV can get HD rentals, and they appear to have pretty darn good PQ, I'm interested in renting those too. All I have to do is somehow convince Apple to let me buy them, and display them on my Mac Mini!

Does anyone know of any good tricks to do this? Is there an ID field that can be set somewhere? A software module that can be transferred from an AppleTV take2 installer over to the mini?

I assume I'm not the only one in this boat, considering all the Home Theater Mac Mini threads. Let's brainstorm!

I copied a HD rental and although it looks fine in itunes which was authorized to the same account, when I tried to play it I got a "not authorized on this device" error.

Yeah...I'm in the same boat, but definitely NOT holding my breath. Apple's video DRM is pretty strong and to be respected.

But I'd love to be proven wrong!

Well, I'm not looking to "break DRM", I just want Apple to think my Mac Mini is an AppleTV, because I've been using like an über-AppleTV.

I seem to remember that there were people taking (pre-Leopard) the original AppleTV software and moving it over to a "regular" Mac OS X machine. Has anyone tried that on "Take 2"? Maybe I should find that AkwardTV website (full of AppleTV hacks) and look up on there....

Maybe I should find that AkwardTV website (full of AppleTV hacks) and look up on there....

Sounds like a great plan! :D

You guys do realize who imlucid works for, don't you? Anything you could come up with would likely get shutdown fairly quickly.....

You guys do realize who imlucid works for, don't you? Anything you could come up with would likely get shutdown fairly quickly.....

Uh-oh!

Well, Exponent DID specifically say he wasn't looking to "break DRM", so maybe that counts for something.

Yeah, I don't want to do any DRM breaking.... I only have limited input ports on my TV - with a HT Mac Mini, Cable Box, Camcorder input, and Blu-Ray, the last thing I want is yet another device to manage, when I have already bought (for more money) AppleTV's older & stronger big brother.

If being able to rent HD movies means means temporarily (while in rental mode) "dumbing down" the mini to AppleTV level so as to allow for maximum copy protection, well, I can understand the need for that....

Anyone remember how when all those consumers tried to buy the "education only" eMac, thus causing Apple to sell them to the general population? It would be nice if the same could happen for HD rentals.

Clearly, Hollywood studios limited Apple TV's DRM licensing to exclude HD movie playback on computers, so that content could not easily be copied.

What I want to know about Apple TV is this: can I use it to merely play back movies (over a wired or wireless network) for display on my new, 24-inch Eizo display (with dual DVI ports and HDCP). During some parts of the day, I use this display for computing work (it's connected to a new Mac Pro). However, it also is an HDTV (it's connected -- via Ethernet -- to a new HDHomeRun ATSC/QAM HD tuner).

It seems to me that if you've paid for a computer display with HDCP, you should be allowed to at least play back Apple TV content on a dual-use display.

How would the studios, Apple, and imlucid respond to this consumer connectivity argument?

Yeah, I don't want to do any DRM breaking.... I only have limited input ports on my TV - with a HT Mac Mini, Cable Box, Camcorder input, and Blu-Ray, the last thing I want is yet another device to manage, when I have already bought (for more money) AppleTV's older & stronger big brother.I understand where you're coming from; I'd actually like to do this also.

How would...imlucid respond to this consumer connectivity argument?

I'm pretty sure he doesn't post here representing a company or their policies.

Same issue here. We don't watch enough movies to make a separate AppleTV purchase worthwhile, and I don't want yet another component + hub on our AV shelf.

The profits are in rentals, not in AppleTV hardware. I hope Apple, Inc., can negotiate broader playback choices for us.

Count me in as another who would gladly fill Apple's coffers for HD rentals, if I can play them back in iTunes (full screen, ac-3 audio) from my HTPC. I'd probably be renting one or two movies a week.

But I cannot justify buying more hardware since I have an HTPC on each TV in the house already! :)

Count me in as another who would gladly fill Apple's coffers for HD rentals, if I can play them back in iTunes (full screen, ac-3 audio) from my HTPC. I'd probably be renting one or two movies a week.

But I cannot justify buying more hardware since I have an HTPC on each TV in the house already! :)
I agree that we have to set some rational limits on how many devices we are going to make a part of our HT systems. Nevertheless, yesterday I bit the bullet and ordered an Apple TV. Here’s why: for reasons that have been beat to death in the HD DVD and Blu-Ray Forums, I have decided to avoid both formats. My decision left me with no way to see movies in HD until they showed up on HBO and the other premium movie channels. That was not good. With the advent of Apple TV’s recent software upgrade, HD movies and 5.1 sound are now available via iTunes. This is good, despite the price, $4.99 per HD movie rented, which does seem a bit high but not insupportable.

I agree that we have to set some rational limits on how many devices we are going to make a part of our HT systems. Nevertheless, yesterday I bit the bullet and ordered an Apple TV. Here’s why: for reasons that have been beat to death in the HD DVD and Blu-Ray Forums, I have decided to avoid both formats. My decision left me with no way to see movies in HD until they showed up on HBO and the other premium movie channels. That was not good. With the advent of Apple TV’s recent software upgrade, HD movies and 5.1 sound are now available via iTunes. This is good, despite the price, $4.99 per HD movie rented, which does seem a bit high but not insupportable.

I think it's a great way to get HD - convenient-realtime-no gas;
$4.99 new release, but $3.99 catalogue...

ken

I agree that the Apple rental price would be the highest rental price I have paid for a movie in many years (since really the old Laserdisc days when renting a Criterion special edition could cost $10). But I can stomach that for the convenience factor given that the actual quality is better than any other method available other than Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (both of which I own; another factor in my not wanting yet another device), or a few HD channels (not HBO, etc., which use low bitrates and pan-scan 2.35:1 movies to fit on a 16:9 screen, but HDNET movies, and some VOOM transfers).

I believe I can rent quite a few BDs from Netflix for the cost of an Apple TV and $4.99 per... not worth it to do the math, but it's got to be quite a few movies before the costs equal. Meanwhile, my more-than-capable mini sits feeling rejected by Apple...
IOW put me down as someone who would cancel my Netflix and rent HD from Apple if they'd let me do it on the mini.

I believe I can rent quite a few BDs from Netflix for the cost of an Apple TV and $4.99 per

Economically, I agree. And in terms of quality, I wouldn't mind waiting a day or three for a disc to reach me in the mail.

In reality, I find that Blu Ray sits in my queue FOREVER with a "long wait", which means I turn to inferior quality (DVD, 720p online purchases, etc.) just for availability reasons.

Apple would be my "second choice" after netflix even though it costs more and offers less quality simply because availability would be better -- as long as I can watch it on my htpc.

I'm another Core Duo Mini HTPC user. For what it's worth, I would like to have the HD rental option too.

I'm another Core Duo Mini HTPC user. For what it's worth, I would like to have the HD rental option too.Me too.

However, once Netflix gets their Blu-ray inventory up to snuff their HD delivery model and pricing will tough to beat.

I'm another Core Duo Mini HTPC user. For what it's worth, I would like to have the HD rental option too.
I suspect the reason Apple doesn't offer its HD movies to Mac Mini owners is related to the limitations imposed by the movie makers. I seem to remember that making HD movies available for use on computers is prohibited.

However, once Netflix gets their Blu-ray inventory up to snuff their HD delivery model and pricing will tough to beat.

Netflix has indicated they will likely raise their prices for plans that include HD content, now that the war is over. (This was reported on EngagetHD.)

Personally I'd be happy to pay an additional $10 a month if it means great availability of the titles I want, when I want.

Economically, I agree. And in terms of quality, I wouldn't mind waiting a day or three for a disc to reach me in the mail.

In reality, I find that Blu Ray sits in my queue FOREVER with a "long wait", which means I turn to inferior quality (DVD, 720p online purchases, etc.) just for availability reasons.

Apple would be my "second choice" after netflix even though it costs more and offers less quality simply because availability would be better -- as long as I can watch it on my htpc.

Me too.

However, once Netflix gets their Blu-ray inventory up to snuff their HD delivery model and pricing will tough to beat.

Netflix has indicated they will likely raise their prices for plans that include HD content, now that the war is over. (This was reported on EngagetHD.)

Personally I'd be happy to pay an additional $10 a month if it means great availability of the titles I want, when I want.

OT... sorry, but this makes me think... I just joined Netflix in December, and while I was in the 1st-month trial period I had no wait on HD-DVD or BD, new releases or old. As soon as the trial period was over I switched to 2/month and all my queue went to long or very long wait... hmmm

Did you try to boot your Mac Mini from the system install CD/DVD, with an AppleTV HDD in an external box and the Mac Mini’s original disk inside, launching Disk Utility and trying to "restore" the system on the internal HDD from the AppleTV one?

Any news or success? I cannot believe I am groveling to give Apple my money.... but I am! :)

It very likely won't happen.

You need an HDMI connection for the HDCP 'handshake' to your TV set, all that copy protection crapola is in the signal, particularly with HD footage.

If someone gets HD rentals working on a Mini I'll eat my hat.

Lots of the issues with protected paths for HD content via HDCP have been resolved in the Windows world (look at what's is going on with Blu-Ray playback on PCs) where one must have an HDCP monitor, so I'd guess that a protected path (and therefor reliable DRM) is not too much of a pipe dream in the Mini world.

Sure hope so!

a lot of the issues in Vista and the like are related to the HDCP crap the studios likely bugged Microsoft to put on there. If Apple wants something similar on their OS it'll take a bit of work under the hood, I'd imagine.

If Apple wants something similar on their OS it'll take a bit of work under the hood, I'd imagine.I doubt Apple will gut OS X, Vista-style, to support AACS. Just because Hollywood duped Microsoft into it, doesn't mean Apple will go along. Apple will do HD on OS X on its own terms in its own time, sigh.

My bet is that Apple is waiting for hardware HD decoding chips that will allow them to slipstream the signal off the HD chip to the video port without having to traverse the OS. I hear the upcoming GM45 chipset from Intel does just that.

Just because Hollywood duped Microsoft into it...


My recollection is that it was the other way around -- Microsoft went to the studios and said they (MS) will have the only secure system for playback so the studios should distribute their goods in a format playable only on Windows. I believe this applied only to films distributed over the Internet, not to DVDs.

Note this is only my recollection: I could be wrong.

Whether, it was Microsoft's idea or not, they were a VERY eager participant. Microsoft has a history pushing DRM to defend the WIndows monopoly -- their WMV DRM has been Windows only long before the advent of HD (Apple's FairPlay meanwhile is cross-platform).

Ultimately I think that the draconian DRM will backfire on Hollywood by pushing their best customers to DRM free, pirate options. Unfortunately, in the meantime we Apple users have to suffer through the present reality -- be that the unavailability of HD beyond the AppleTV, or the rental only HD policy, or the shortage of films available through iTunes (the 1000 promise wasn't met due to studio games).

It is all a story that we know the ending of -- the trip of the audio industry towards DRM free downloads (while still trying to kick Apple in the teeth along the way) -- but will have to wait a few more years for it play itself out on the video side.

My recollection is that it was the other way around -- Microsoft went to the studios and said they (MS) will have the only secure system for playback so the studios should distribute their goods in a format playable only on Windows. I believe this applied only to films distributed over the Internet, not to DVDs.

Note this is only my recollection: I could be wrong.End result is the same in either case. It was probably a little bit of both.

Looks like there are new talks going on about getting Blu-Ray playback on the Mac, according to this article about xbox and blu-ray.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/06/sony-in-talks-with-microsoft-about-a-xbox-360-blu-ray-d/

links to the article at FT.com where the us electronics head of Sony, Stan Glasgow, was speaking at a media dinner, and said "that discussions were also taking place with Apple, which has not offered Blu-ray drives on any of its computers so far and has focused on digital media via downloads and streaming through devices such as its Apple TV."

Count me as another person that wants HD rentals on their Mac mini. I'm not sure if the AppleTV requires HDMI for playing back HD content. Remember, there is a set of component connectors on the AppleTV too.

Has anybody tried playing HD content over component yet? If that works then there is hope for putting the AppleTV OS on a Mac mini.

If Apple doesn't open up HD rentals with iTunes then I just won't buy any from them. I sure won't buy an AppleTV just for this purpose. Netflix + Blu-ray will serve me fine. I would've liked to rent an HD movie from Apple on occasion, but I guess they can live without me. I spend enough on their other products as it is anyway. Oh well.

Count me as another person that wants HD rentals on their Mac mini. I'm not sure if the AppleTV requires HDMI for playing back HD content. Remember, there is a set of component connectors on the AppleTV too.
Component works well with Apple TV, that's what I use. My HDTV is 5 years old and has only a DVI digital input, not HDMI. Thus, component is the only game in town for me where HD input is concerned.

My HDTV is 5 years old and has only a DVI digital input, not HDMI. Thus, component is the only game in town for me where HD input is concerned.
Can't you just use an HDMI to DVI cable? Wait, is it an HDCP thing?

If Apple doesn't open up HD rentals with iTunes then I just won't buy any from them. I sure won't buy an AppleTV just for this purpose. Netflix + Blu-ray will serve me fine.
It's not totally clear from your post if you already own Blu-ray or if you are speaking hypothetically.

Right now you can buy an AppleTV and can use it to watch "near HD" quality movies for the next year.

In one or two years the price of the Blu-ray players and disks will have declined enough to make this strategy worthwhile.

sHuh? It's possible to find Blu-ray players for $50 more than an Apple TV. And the (blu-ray) HD rentals are cheaper (and higher quality) than the Apple TV. And there's more movies. Sounds like it's a great strategy already -- except that AVAILABILITY of rentals is better via Apple TV, since Netflix is struggling to keep up with demand.

Don't get me wrong, I would be renting from Apple frequently if it didn't require buying yet another redundant CE device. But it would be for convenience and availability, and I'd be taking a hit on cost and quality.

sHuh? It's possible to find Blu-ray players for $50 more than an Apple TV. And the (blu-ray) HD rentals are cheaper (and higher quality) than the Apple TV. And there's more movies. Sounds like it's a great strategy already -- except that AVAILABILITY of rentals is better via Apple TV, since Netflix is struggling to keep up with demand.

Don't get me wrong, I would be renting from Apple frequently if it didn't require buying yet another redundant CE device. But it would be for convenience and availability, and I'd be taking a hit on cost and quality.

Me 2

Can't you just use an HDMI to DVI cable? Wait, is it an HDCP thing?
No, alas, I found that a DVI to HDMI cable wouldn’t work. My HDTV (a 2003 50 inch RCA) is not HDCP compliant. Thus, it can’t communicate with HDMI devices,even with a conversion cable. Too bad, but there it is.

In one or two years the price of the Blu-ray players and disks will have declined enough to make this strategy worthwhile.
I bought a 60Gb Apple TV a couple of weeks ago. It works well, as one would expect with an Apple product but I am nonetheless disappointed so far.

There are only about a hundred HD movies available via Apple HD thus far and only a fraction of those are new releases. The rental for new releases is $4.99 per movie and you can only keep one for the 24 hours following the time you first start to watch it. Even older HD movies cost $3.99. This combination of limited time and choice, and high price has meant that I have only rented three movies so far. That’s not very good utilization of gear for which I paid in excess of $300. Color me underwhelmed. Maybe the choice will improve and the price come down, both certainly need to happen.

No, alas, I found that a DVI to HDMI cable wouldn’t work. My HDTV (a 2003 50 inch RCA) is not HDCP compliant. Thus, it can’t communicate with HDMI devices,even with a conversion cable. Too bad, but there it is.My 2003ish "vintage" Sony WEGA has no problem with an HDMI to DVI cable outputted from my cable STB and DVD player through my AVR. Now if you're talking HDCP, that's a different story.

I bought a 60Gb Apple TV a couple of weeks ago. It works well, as one would expect with an Apple product but I am nonetheless disappointed so far.

There are only about a hundred HD movies available via Apple HD thus far and only a fraction of those are new releases. The rental for new releases is $4.99 per movie and you can only keep one for the 24 hours following the time you first start to watch it. Even older HD movies cost $3.99. This combination of limited time and choice, and high price has meant that I have only rented three movies so far. That’s not very good utilization of gear for which I paid in excess of $300. Color me underwhelmed. Maybe the choice will improve and the price come down, both certainly need to happen.

the selection should increase dramatically given full studio support. But I doubt the price will change at all (maybe a monthly subscription but not for a long time). the 24 hours has been a fairly common complaint but not overwhelming. It's possible this could get some relief in the future. Otherwise, this doesn't sound like your cup of tea; Maybe return it or sell it - demand is reportedly pretty high... Then wait for your preferred conditions to appear in the future...

ken

This person was able to install Take 2 on his MacBook Pro but he doesn't say if he was able to download a movie.

http://www.macgeekblog.com/blog/archive/2008/03/08/apple-tv-take-2-running-on-macbook.html

rudiger

the selection should increase dramatically given full studio support. But I doubt the price will change at all (maybe a monthly subscription but not for a long time). the 24 hours has been a fairly common complaint but not overwhelming. It's possible this could get some relief in the future. Otherwise, this doesn't sound like your cup of tea; Maybe return it or sell it - demand is reportedly pretty high... Then wait for your preferred conditions to appear in the future...
I toyed with returning my Apple TV to Amazon but the hassle of having to ship it back on my own nickel and a restocking fee dissuaded me.

Apple, to its credit, has been adding additional HD movies at a pretty good clip so I am hopeful that its current inventory will soon increase. If Amazon Unbox had HD movies I never would have bought an Apple TV in the first place. Speaking of Unbox, its movies are only $2.99 each, instead of the $3.99 Apple charges for SD movies. For obvious reasons, I have not rented any SD movies from Apple and don’t plan on doing so.

Speaking of Unbox, its movies are only $2.99 each, instead of the $3.99 Apple charges for SD movies. For obvious reasons, I have not rented any SD movies from Apple and don’t plan on doing so.

That's strange. I just looked at Amazon and the movies rent for $3.99, not $2.99. I just went to Unbox and rental and that's the price I saw at least on the first page.

Actually iTunes - all catalogue rental ARE $2.99; New release is $3.99;
HD is $1 extra in both categories...

Maybe that explains the confusion...

ken

One other note on rentals and DRM.. I purchased a movie rental this weekend, and without thinking I did the transaction on my MacBook Pro (as I do with most music purchases, buy it on my laptop and later move it over to my main media center box - my Core Duo Mini).

But, when I copied my movie over to the Mini, I got an error message when I tried to play it saying that the movie was authorized on a different machine.

Not a big deal.. but worth noting that the DRM behavior is different with music and movies.

I am not sure which to buy, ATV or a MM. I was set on the Mini because of access to Hulu which carries HD content streamed from most of the major networks. And the ATV won't let you access Hulu not even with some of the hacks. But now that I have learned that the Mini won't play HD I am not sure I want either. Put me down for wanting apple to allow the Mini to playback the HD content on iTunes...

Yeah, that's a significant hurdle.

We know they can implement a "protected path". So why HD is limited to ATV is not clear.

I am not sure which to buy, ATV or a MM. I was set on the Mini because of access to Hulu which carries HD content streamed from most of the major networks. And the ATV won't let you access Hulu not even with some of the hacks. But now that I have learned that the Mini won't play HD I am not sure I want either. Put me down for wanting apple to allow the Mini to playback the HD content on iTunes...

i agree, i'm sort of in the same position. neither the mini, nor the apple tv seem to be capable of doing what i want. the only thing the apple tv has are hd rentals and hdmi out, while the mini has (potential) dvr functionality as well as much wider support for web based content. apple needs to get this stuff sorted out, or i'm going to look elsewhere, like windows media center (though i don't know if that will be what i want either...)

although, for the record, hulu has almost no hd content. last i looked they had 5 tv shows in hd, and dr. horrible, and it hadn't been updated in months.

Looks like Apple claims this is resolved. Anyone try it yet?

You can now buy HD for any PC or Mac but you still can't rent HD (only the AppleTV can)... When will you if ever?

You can now buy HD for any PC or Mac but you still can't rent HD (only the AppleTV can)... When will you if ever?

About 2 weeks ago. According to Apple, you can buy or rent HD since then. Read the press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2009/03/19itunes.html) if you don't believe me.

Interesting press release. On iTunes however I can find many HD movies to purchase, many SD movies to purchase, and many SD movies to rent. But no HD movies to rent.

Interesting press release. On iTunes however I can find many HD movies to purchase, many SD movies to purchase, and many SD movies to rent. But no HD movies to rent.
Ever since Apple first made HD movies available from iTunes, the only way you could order them was via an Apple TV. I have an Apple TV and rented a few HD movies shortly after they became available but soon stopped because they were WAY too expensive: $4.99 for a newly released movie in HD, which had to be watched within 24 hours of when you first started to play it. Renting BDs from BB or NF is far cheaper and more flexible, to boot. Further, the PQ of a 1080p BD is state of the art, whereas that of a 720p movie downloaded from iTunes falls somewhere between that of cable HD and 480p DVDs.

Well I bit the bullet and got a MM. I figure right now I can use it to watch SD on Hulu and then purchase a few HD movies through iTunes until they start renting them. I am not thrilled to hear that the HD quality is really not HD... After spending $1000 on a MM I may end up buying a BD player after all... nah not really. Guess I am stuck somewhere between HD and SD for now. I am going to purchase an antenna for my attic and pull down local HD that way. Until Hulu can get there HD act together.

I Consider 720p to be HD, I've watched ATV's rental on my 47inch and it looks great, I'm sure it would up to a 60" or so, for a Projector 1080p will always be better.

I Consider 720p to be HD, I've watched ATV's rental on my 47inch and it looks great, I'm sure it would up to a 60" or so, for a Projector 1080p will always be better.
I agree that 720p is HD. In fact, I enjoy HD shows in 720p very much and almost never remember that they are not 1080i. Nevertheless, to my eyes at least, 1080p BDs have better PQ on my 60 inch Pioneer Kuro 6020 than do either 720p or 1080i programs shown on cable or OTA. How much of that difference is the result of the superior resolution of 1080p and how much of it is caused by cable and OTA bandwidth starvation is, of course, anybody's guess.

iTunes 8.1.1 adds HD rentals.

iTunes 8.1.1 adds HD rentals.

+1.

From Apple:


iTunes 8.1.1 adds support for renting HD movies and provides a number of bug fixes, including addressing issues with VoiceOver and syncing with iPhone or iPod touch.

I'm a bit confused. Does the advent of HD purchases and rentals on the iTMS using a Mac or PC mean that these files do not enforce HDCP-type encryption to the display device? If that's true, that means pretty much any Mac and display could be used to purchase and view the content. If it's not true, meaning you need a very recent Mac that is HDCP capable, and you need an attached display that is HDCP compliant, when in the process do you find that out? More specifically, if I have an older generation Mac, say a previous gen mini with full-sized DVI connector, and I have iTunes 8.1.1 installed and I go to purchase an HD movie, will I get barred from the purchase? Or will I get a warning that the movie may not play in HD on my system? Or will the purchase go through only for me to find out that the file won't play? If that's the case, Apple is going to have a lot of irate customers.

There is a real dearth of proper information that I can find from Apple on this. The press release was useless in this regard. If legacy Macs are able to download and play these movies in HD, then I am confused how Apple got agreement from the studios to expose the content in this manner. Could it mean that Apple's definition of HD is so low-def that the studios don't care?

I believe that the only potential source of trouble is a HDCP complaint Mac with a non-HDCP complaint display. All other possible combinations should work fine. If they started selling/renting stuff that wouldn't play on most Macs out there, without even a warning label, I'd be a bit surprised. Thus I think that non-HDCP complaint Macs will be fine.