Today I got a deal on a Klipsch RW12-d from Ultimate Electronics - $480 for the floor model. (with 30 day return if it's blown - it is a floor model, after all) My question is, down the road I'll get a 2nd sub, probably an HSU VTF3 HO to get me down to that bone rattling 16Hz. Will having two different brands of subs create an issue?

This is for a Home Theater.

Thanks

Simple answer - no.

I personally don't think it's worth it to buy a budget sub and then get a twice more expsensive one - the budget one won't add a whole lot, and they will not match well. Besides, both those subwoofers have better counterparts at their price levels, you should probably read around before you settle on what you want.

Simple answer - no.

Actually, the simple answer is yes. Two different subwoofers will yield unpredictable results at the listening position. Since the frequency response will be different for each subwoofer, calibration may also be problematic.

Using one inferior subwoofer in conjunction with a more powerful one can be a problem especially if the one overloads before the other. Then it is a matter of redundancy. My advice would be to stick to identical subwoofers.

Hey QQQ, it's been awhile. Haven't seen any of the "old" posters around here for a long time.

--Regards,

What if you have the same type of sub's....just with sealed and ported mix? how would that affect everything??

Properly mixing and matching different subs...whether ported, sealed, whatever... is difficult and tricky. It can be done, I've done it, but it's a bit of a PIA. Matching subs are much easier to work with.

well im coming from a DIY background but the concepts should stay the same...if i have two of the same drivers in a sealed enclosure...if i use that same driver in a ported box...will i be able yo make that work?? given that their frequency repsonse is the same...thanks!

Do you mean you would have two subs...one ported, one sealed...but each using the same kind of driver? For all intents and purposes, they are two totally different subs. They will not sound at all alike, even with the same drivers.

Can you make it work? Yes you can, but it will be a PIA.

if i use that same driver in a ported box...will i be able yo make that work?? given that their frequency repsonse is the same...thanks!

The frequency response will not be the same.

--Regards,

Two different subwoofers will yield unpredictable results at the listening position.
So will identical subs. That's why you properly position and calibrate them.
Since the frequency response will be different for each subwoofer, calibration may also be problematic.
It may be, but that would depend on a number of criteria. In general, I'd happily use multiple good subwoofers even if they are not identical. (edit: DEPENDS on the subs in question, the greater the difference in low end response the less likely I would do so)
Using one inferior subwoofer in conjunction with a more powerful one can be a problem especially if the one overloads before the other.
You are less likely to overload them because you have two subwoofers. That's also why you calibrate them. If one subwoofer clips much earlier than the other, that's an issue, but it means you've got an underpeforming sub, not that different subs cannot be used.

I did BTW say the simple answer :).

What's with all the people thinking I'm going to be matching something with a cheap sub? Out of the $700 SW-12d and the $810 HSU VTF3 HO, which one is the cheap sub? The VTF3 HO is the one I eventually want to pair the Klipsch up with. As far as I know, it's not a cheap sub.

So will identical subs. That's why you properly position and calibrate them.

Properly positioning and calibrating two completely different subwoofers with different output capabilities and frequency response characteristics will still yield unpredictable results.

It may be, but that would depend on a number of criteria. In general, I'd happily use multiple good subwoofers even if they are not identical.

So even if the frequency response capabilities are all over the map for each subwoofer, you would still happily use them ? Okay. :)

that's an issue, but it means you've got an underpeforming sub, not that different subs cannot be used.

Since when do two different subwoofers have similar output capabilities and frequency response characteristics ? One will underperform in some way. And using two subwoofers, one deficient in a particular output and frequency range (and the other strong down to the teens) will have little to no benefit, especially once calibrated.

I did BTW say the simple answer .

The answer is not simple, son. :)

--Regards,

goneten,

Please stop putting words in my mouth. One assumes that one uses some common sense when reading a post, but some are more interested in arguing points that have little relevance to the thread.

The thread starter wants to pair two subs that are about $700 each. If you'd like to debate the effects of using subs with "frequency responses all over the map", group delay, intermodulation distortion et al, feel free, "son", but it really doesn't help the poster much.

According to the reputation of Klipsch subs around here, the klipsch sub will be substantially inferior to HSU. So even though the prices are close, performance-wise it will still be "cheap + expensive".
And have you considered another options at all? What made you choose these two?

I'm glad to see this thread - because I have a VTF-3 HO that I am having trouble selling for a reasonable price and two MFW-15 subs coming soon.

My thought is that if I can't get what I want for the HSU I will keep it and run three subs with the HSU crossover set at 50 and the MFW-15 set for full LFE output.

I have sub EQ in the form of a RDES.

I've attached a sketch of my loft - I was thinking of using the MFW-15 as stands for my bookshelf speakers since there is not a lot of room and keeping the HSU HO w turbo in the corner. The squiggly lines on the left is a stairwell opening leading to the second floor. (No door)

The other thought was adding a MBM instead of the MFW-15.

What do you guys think?

Sell your HSU to the OP

QQQ, just because you don't like what I wrote does not mean it lacks relevance. :rolleyes: The "advice" given in this thread by you is simply misleading.

If you want to educate people then you need to understand the issue and the implications of that issue. You obviously have little clue.

--Regards,

Will having two different brands of subs create an issue?

It's not necessarily so much the brand that matters, (not that it doesn't) but that both subs have different frequency characteristics. You can use two differently tuned subs from the same manufacture collocated and your going to have cancellations, thus defeating your intention. Your gonna make gains and loose, give and take as they say. In the end it's up to you in deciphering if the gain outweighs the loss? You might gain 5dB in headroom from 25-30hz on up, but then be minus 5dB in headroom from 24-29hz on down from what you could achieve with the single lower tuned? Over simplified, but relevant. There are ways to minimize the down side, but imho, not worth the hassle. One thing you can be sure of though, your going to be sacrificing your lower frequency. If you were a loved one asking the question of me, I would say.. don't do it.;)

Steve nn, excellent post.

--Regards,

And have you considered another options at all? What made you choose these two?

I chose the Klipsch because I saw it in Ultimate Electronics at $210 off and I needed a sub. But I couldn't pay for it up front, so I financed it 6 months same as cash. Looking at the HSU page, it doesn't look like they have financing options.

Ideally I would have gotten a VTF3 HO and then added a second later on. But to do that I'd have to go without a sub of any kind for quite a while.

So I don't really want to return the Klipsch. If I had to, I could probably sell it for close to what I paid for it once I can get an HSU.

So then the question becomes "Would one VTF3 HO alone be better than a VTF3 HO and SW-12d?" And is the turbocharger really worth it?

It's not necessarily so much the brand that matters, (not that it doesn't) but that both subs have different frequency characteristics. You can use two differently tuned subs from the same manufacture collocated and your going to have cancellations, thus defeating your intention. Your gonna make gains and loose, give and take as they say. In the end it's up to you in deciphering if the gain outweighs the loss? You might gain 5dB in headroom from 25-30hz on up, but then be minus 5dB in headroom from 24-29hz on down from what you could achieve with the single lower tuned? Over simplified, but relevant. There are ways to minimize the down side, but imho, not worth the hassle. One thing you can be sure of though, your going to be sacrificing your lower frequency. If you were a loved one asking the question of me, I would say.. don't do it.;)
To the thread starter, I believe that Steve has done an excellent job of explaining the opposing view. It is indeed a trade-off, as just about everything is. Ultimately, it depends on the subs in question as to whether you find the trade-off in your favor.

In case his explanation is not clear, here's an example. If you have one sub that is flat to 30 hz, and one that is flat to 20 hz, you want to calibrate them for proper level, and because you are using two the level on each will be lower than if they were being used standalone.

In that instance, you've gained headroom in the region that both operate in, from 30 HZ to 80 HZ (let's assume you cross them over at 80 HZ). You've also achieved another benefit of using multiple subs which is more even bass response throughout the room. More even response throughout the room can also be perceived as deeper bass, since you have less variation as you move about the room.

However, you've now actually lost some headroom in the region from 20 HZ to 30 HZ, because the sub that works in that region is actually calibrated at a lower level than it would be if it were used alone.

It's not necessarily so much the brand that matters, (not that it doesn't) but that both subs have different frequency characteristics. You can use two differently tuned subs from the same manufacture collocated and your going to have cancellations, thus defeating your intention.

Why would there be cancellations? I understand that it would more difficult to calibrate two different subs but if they are co-located how does one cancel they other just because they have a different native tuning point?

Why would there be cancellations? I understand that it would more difficult to calibrate two different subs but if they are co-located how does one cancel they other just because they have a different native tuning point?
What would be a good analogy??mm.. OK lets say you can run the 100 yard dash in 5 seconds flat and I can run it in 10 seconds flat. Now if I tie a rope between us, and we both run the 100 together, how fast do you think you will be able to run the 100? This is partially the reason without getting into other aspects. It can come out worse than 10 seconds my time (standing wave cancellations) Physics is my week point, but learning by experience has made up for it. I understand the questioning, trust me I do. Thanks guys

I see what's going on. So the lower frequency floor that the VTF3HO would give me wouldn't be as loud. So the ideal would be to VTF3HOs. But given what people have said, I think the Klipsch, and later that paired with a VTF will work very well until such time as I can afford the "ideal".


In that instance, you've gained headroom in the region that both operate in, from 30 HZ to 80 HZ (let's assume you cross them over at 80 HZ).

That brings a new question. I always figured you just hook the sub up to the Sub Pre-Out and just let it play everything on the LFE channel instead of letting the receiver send anything above the cutoff to the mains. Is there a reason freqs above a certain point should go to the mains instead of the sub?

Conversely, I have small speakers as mains right now. The horns are about 4.5". I got these a couple years ago because I couldn't afford the Klipsch mains I wanted. (RF82s) I have them set as "large" in the receiver setup so that their freqs don't go to the sub. I did this because one they were set to low and a lot of the voice was going to the sub, and it was quite annoying.

I did try setting them back to small and set the crossover in the receiver to 100hz. I then played a scene, then switched it back and played the same scene. I noticed that there were certain sound effects in the scene that would produce a bass hit when the crossover was active, but not when my mains were set as large. So I'm wondering which is more desirable. A bass hit on things that maybe the director didn't intend as a LFE, or just send everything below 100Hz or so to the sub. But then I suppose if I did have a pair of RF82s as my mains, I would be getting a bass hit anyway...

On another note, looks like I need to get a db meter from Radio Shack and a sweep CD and cal my sub. What I really need to do is set up bass traps...

First many folks get along fine with a single sub and you would want to assess the result with one for a while. If then you found something not to your liking you would want to start from there with this question. You might find that the combined cost of the two subs paired would buy you a single sub with qualities that would solve your problem better than the two you mention in your post combined.

In my room it is really just about impossible to get two subs working together nicely with an even response, much easier to work with a single in the one really good position I have. It is not a set up you can just assume will be better. Your room may be totally different of course but I guess the idea would be not to get stuck on using a pair. That said this post caught my eye because with the availabilty of nice measuring tools like the Velodyne equalizer I'm going to give setting up a pair another try.

In general using two different subs is simply not a good idea. I think it would be very unlikely to get the matched response you need for quality sound.

Regards,
Larry R
Seattle

To the thread starter, I believe that Steve has done an excellent job of explaining the opposing view. It is indeed a trade-off, as just about everything is.

Why would one recommend a trade-off that could be avoided ? If the OP wants the least amount of trade-off then using dissimilar subwoofers is simply not recommended.

In that instance, you've gained headroom in the region that both operate in, from 30 HZ to 80 HZ (let's assume you cross them over at 80 HZ).

You will not necessarily gain headroom using two dissimilar subwoofers either. The coupling benefits of using two dissimilar subwoofers is again, largely unpredictable.

You've also achieved another benefit of using multiple subs which is more even bass response throughout the room.

Yes, smoother response if using identical subwoofers.

--Regards,

I chose the Klipsch because I saw it in Ultimate Electronics at $210 off and I needed a sub. But I couldn't pay for it up front, so I financed it 6 months same as cash. Looking at the HSU page, it doesn't look like they have financing options.

Ideally I would have gotten a VTF3 HO and then added a second later on. But to do that I'd have to go without a sub of any kind for quite a while.

So I don't really want to return the Klipsch. If I had to, I could probably sell it for close to what I paid for it once I can get an HSU.

So then the question becomes "Would one VTF3 HO alone be better than a VTF3 HO and SW-12d?" And is the turbocharger really worth it?
performance/price-wise, I'm not sure about this particular Klipsch sub, but in general Klipsch is considered weak in that regard. More likely than not that sub is not worth half its price in comparison with the best ID brands.
HSU on the other hand, has good perfomance for its price, but still not the best. If you can wait 2 months there are really good subs from Epik (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/Products.html), elemental designs (http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=2_41) and av123 (http://**********/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=9&Itemid=37)