just visited my local best buy and was told about their television calibration service:

1. $300
2. not an isf calibration, but same guys do it (or something like that)
3. they use a laptop connected to $7,000 of gear
4. all settings are recorded and you are given a printed graph showing before and after comparisons.

this is the one that make me go hmm...

5. all settings are done on the user menu NOT in the service menu.

now, please correct me if im wrong. but without going into the service menu, and using only the settings that are available to all of us, this sounds far more like a glorified avia/dvd essential calibration to me, doesnt it?

opinions?

opinions?

I would never pay a Best Buy employee to be in my home. I think they would have to pay me.

I would never pay a Best Buy employee to be in my home. I think they would have to pay me.

.....And they would have to pay ME even more to let them touch my TV:D

.....And they would have to pay ME even more to let them touch my TV:D

I used to work in the electronics dept at Sears, which just happens to be right across the street from Best Buy where I'm from. People would come in all the time, comparing TV's of course, and they would start mentioning the stuff the Best Buy salesmen were telling them.

Among them were:

1. You NEED to have the TV calibrated.
2. You can't get 1080p, or the 120hz refresh in LCD's without Monster HDMI cables (LOL).
3. Monster Power Centers will clean up that signal realllllll nice ;)
4. And finally, you NEED TO HAVE THE TV CALIBRATED.

I can understand the need to have the TV calibrated, as obviously it makes the picture a little better (or a lot in some cases) but the way that some people would come in, and tell me the horror stories that the Best Buy guys tell them made me sick. And now that the OP on this thread said that Best Buy doesn't even get into the service menu? That makes me even angrier.

The Best Buy salesmen would tell them that LCD is the way to go for best overall PQ (which it isnt, as anyone who has seen a Pioneer would know). They also push those Monster Cables like there is no tomorrow. There has to be something that the BBB can do to make Best Buy be a little more honest with what info they give customers; telling customers that the 120hz refresh on the Samsung LCD's wont work without those $200 Monster HDMI cables is a bunch of BS. The average person obviously wouldn't know that, so they are suckered into paying $200 for a cable that Best Buy paid $5 for.

I used to work in the electronics dept at Sears, which just happens to be right across the street from Best Buy where I'm from. People would come in all the time, comparing TV's of course, and they would start mentioning the stuff the Best Buy salesmen were telling them.

Among them were:

1. You NEED to have the TV calibrated.
2. You can't get 1080p, or the 120hz refresh in LCD's without Monster HDMI cables (LOL).
3. Monster Power Centers will clean up that signal realllllll nice ;)
4. And finally, you NEED TO HAVE THE TV CALIBRATED.

I can understand the need to have the TV calibrated, as obviously it makes the picture a little better (or a lot in some cases) but the way that some people would come in, and tell me the horror stories that the Best Buy guys tell them made me sick. And now that the OP on this thread said that Best Buy doesn't even get into the service menu? That makes me even angrier.

The Best Buy salesmen would tell them that LCD is the way to go for best overall PQ (which it isnt, as anyone who has seen a Pioneer would know). They also push those Monster Cables like there is no tomorrow. There has to be something that the BBB can do to make Best Buy be a little more honest with what info they give customers; telling customers that the 120hz refresh on the Samsung LCD's wont work without those $200 Monster HDMI cables is a bunch of BS. The average person obviously wouldn't know that, so they are suckered into paying $200 for a cable that Best Buy paid $5 for.

I agree with everything you said. Remember their overhead is outrageous and although their cost is better than most companies they are paying management and their staff on an hourly, weekly, monthly, and yearly basis as well as benefits. Their margins aren't that great on their TV's considering that they have huge buying influence. The only resort is to sell higher priced accessories (which are now being driven down) because of the market. So all in all, it makes for one high pressure sales environment that can be very difficult for individuals that want to get the most non-persuasive information.

Chris

I would never pay a Best Buy employee to be in my home. I think they would have to pay me.

Post of the century!:)

thanks guys for the post on the cable.

wow, i did not intend this to become a "buy more" bashing :)

any one have any info regarding calibrating with and without using the service menu?

for example, is there something that can not be adjusted unless you go into the service menu? perhaps grey-scale or the like?

I used to work in the electronics dept at Sears, which just happens to be right across the street from Best Buy where I'm from. People would come in all the time, comparing TV's of course, and they would start mentioning the stuff the Best Buy salesmen were telling them.

Among them were:

1. You NEED to have the TV calibrated.
2. You can't get 1080p, or the 120hz refresh in LCD's without Monster HDMI cables (LOL).
3. Monster Power Centers will clean up that signal realllllll nice ;)
4. And finally, you NEED TO HAVE THE TV CALIBRATED.

I can understand the need to have the TV calibrated, as obviously it makes the picture a little better (or a lot in some cases) but the way that some people would come in, and tell me the horror stories that the Best Buy guys tell them made me sick. And now that the OP on this thread said that Best Buy doesn't even get into the service menu? That makes me even angrier.

The Best Buy salesmen would tell them that LCD is the way to go for best overall PQ (which it isnt, as anyone who has seen a Pioneer would know). They also push those Monster Cables like there is no tomorrow. There has to be something that the BBB can do to make Best Buy be a little more honest with what info they give customers; telling customers that the 120hz refresh on the Samsung LCD's wont work without those $200 Monster HDMI cables is a bunch of BS. The average person obviously wouldn't know that, so they are suckered into paying $200 for a cable that Best Buy paid $5 for.Like the guy from Sears knows any more about PDPs than a kid @ BB. :p

is there something that can not be adjusted unless you go into the service menu? perhaps grey-scale or the like?
Many TVs are now offering the necessary controls for calibration in the user menus. However, many also still limit such adjustments to a service-level menu. Reliability of information heard at Best Buy is probably slightly less than what can be encountered on public forums or in the media. Cross check everything to see if it's opinion, misinterpretation of the facts, or solidly founded upon imaging science and display industry standards and recommended practices.

Best Buy fills a legitimate need in the marketplace. The electronics consuming masses consider price first and foremost, then convenience a close second. They will suffer the abuse of third-rate advice and third-rate performance for the sake of saving a few bucks and/or getting it at the local big box store (ie. Visio). The pursuit of excellence is not valued by the general populace.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." H. L. Mencken

Excellence and expertise at Best Buy is the exception rather than the rule, a notch better than WalMart or Costco. Some employees do try harder, particularly in the Magnolia departments. They still don't pay very well because of the harsh realities of internet pricing and their brick and mortar overhead.

Many of Bestbuy's sales staff don't really know what Bestbuy actually offers for services. The calibrators may or may not train the floor staff as to the benefits of video calibration and what is performed by the calibrator. Outside of the calibrator, there is no formal training for Bestbuy sales staff. I am assuming that the original poster spoke with a salesman and not one of Bestbuy's calibrators. The calibrators are trained by a Bestbuy employee who is an ISF certified instructor. Bestbuy's calibrators are trained to make adjustments in the service menu.

Scary thought a BB employee in the service menu of my brand new plasma. No thanks.

If Best Buy employees went into the service menu as a matter of policy, Best Buy would have a hard time explaining to its manufacturing partners why it should have warranty coverage when something breaks. Seriously, I would expect manufacturers to overlook a few of the smaller dealers doing this, but not someone at Best Buy's scale.

Let's hope that this helps push manufacturers to include greater levels of control in the user menu so that we don't have to resort to going into the service menu anymore.

Bill

If Best Buy employees went into the service menu as a matter of policy, Best Buy would have a hard time explaining to its manufacturing partners why it should have warranty coverage when something breaks. Seriously, I would expect manufacturers to overlook a few of the smaller dealers doing this, but not someone at Best Buy's scale.

Of course the freakin' CE manufactures could easily avoid the whole problem by putting in a menu item called "Standard" and actually have it calibrated to the proper d65 greyscale, gamut, color matrix, et al. But nooooo! ;)

Well I got the calibration from Best Buy for free. Guy came yesterday, was isf certified, knew what he was doing, definately used the service menu, took his time, and got the tv perfect. Not saying this is the norm but they only have 2 of these techs in the Maryland, Deleware, PA area and at least the one I met knew what he was doing. It helped that I did too so their is always that. Some customers may be treated differently.

The fact that Best Buy has even started to recommend calibration is a giant step in the right direction for them. As GeorgeAB said, the market for large CE Stores has evolved from where it was in the past.

Best Buy could not survive if they were only selling high-end Audio and Video services. Unfortunately, there's a certain level of service that you're going to get when the place you're buying your TV also sells microwaves, movies, and board games.

That being said, with boards like this one, the amount of research that the average consumer can do it phenomenal. The downside is, of course, those of us who read this board are not the average consumer. There is a reason why Samsung LCD's come out of the box so bright they'll blind your cat.

Would I let a Best Buy installer calibrate my set? Yes. At this point in time, the BBY Calibraters only calibrate systems. They don't do anything else. These are not the same people who hook up HDMI cables 40-hours per week.

You get the service for which you pay. There are some really great CC, Fry's, BBY employees out there, who really know there stuff. There are also college students who don't. If you don't like your salesperson, there is probably another person in the store who does know better. Simple.

Well, I just bought a new TV from Vanns, but a couple week ago, I did go to Circuit City and Best Buy to see if I can get a deals on it. Here is what I found out at Best Buy from a Sales person. He showed me a comparison on 2 same model tv, one calibrated and one without. Obviously, the calibrated one was a lot better. He told me that the way they do the calibration is going into the service menu and after that I can adjust the normal menu any way I like or unplug the TV or reset the power and the calibrated setting won't change. He told me that the calibration is a permanent changed in the TV.

Now the monster cables issue. I know the reason why they push that. My brother used to work at Best Buy a few years ago, and they push that cables because of the profit margin and ALSO because it was a guaranty way of telling the customers that they get the BEST cables FROM the store. This way, they cannot go back and blame it on the cables. The profit at Best Buy is not the larger electronic items, but their accessories AND services plans. That is why they are pushing those.

Greetings

Gregg and I were in SF last week teaching the THX class and during the pack up day, we headed to the local BB for fun.

Asked the sales guy about the calibration thing ...

"oh the ICF thing ... we get about one taker on every 7 to 8 tvs sold."

Us ... "Well if you keep calling it ICF, then no wonder people don't know what it really is about." :)

He did say he was a low level person and the best people to talk to were the guys in the Magnolia section.

Regards

If Best Buy employees went into the service menu as a matter of policy, Best Buy would have a hard time explaining to its manufacturing partners why it should have warranty coverage when something breaks. Seriously, I would expect manufacturers to overlook a few of the smaller dealers doing this, but not someone at Best Buy's scale.

Let's hope that this helps push manufacturers to include greater levels of control in the user menu so that we don't have to resort to going into the service menu anymore.

Bill

I don't think that they will bother unless they make problems. The manufacturers are pretty disconnected from what happens in the field.

I was in BB the other day playing around with the settings on a Samsung 5271 when the kid who worked there came up to me and grabbed the remote from me. He then proceded to tell me that this set had been calibrated and I should not change the settings. Actually the set looked like c$#p with the settings they had and looked much better after I adjusted it. I just kept my mouth shut.

I had heard of the BB calibration before but yesterday for the first time I went into my local BB and they had 2 Samsung LCD 71 series (small size, I think it was 37" or so) side by side in the Magnolia section promoting the calibration service. The TVs were playing Ice Age, one was calibrated and the other was not. Obviously the difference was huge, the non calibrated set had the colors all out of whack and the brightness set so high it looked foggy. Nonetheless, the calibrated one looked pretty good regardless of the comparison. I am sure that whoever did it, did a fine job. I am no tech expert but I believe the quality of the calibration depends on the ability of the technician and his experience with the particular set, so your mileage my vary.
If I was buying my TV at BB (which I am not) I would probably give them a shot for the calibration since they seem to offer a big discount on the service, I may be wrong but I think they offer it for free on some sets.

Among them were:

1. You NEED to have the TV calibrated.
2. You can't get 1080p, or the 120hz refresh in LCD's without Monster HDMI cables (LOL).
3. Monster Power Centers will clean up that signal realllllll nice
4. And finally, you NEED TO HAVE THE TV CALIBRATED.

I'm not convinced the Monster Surge Protectors are as much of a fabrication as the other points. A salesman threw one of the $80 Monster units free back in '03 when I bought an XBR910 from him. Recently, I replaced it (moved it to use with another display) with your standard $20 Surger from Home Depot or Wal-Mart, and the exact same set up produces a ground loop buzz in the TV where as the Monster did not. Is there an explanation for this?

The unit is likely defective. You are correct, however, that the inexpensive monster surge suppressors are not necessarily a bad value. We sell a $50 unit that is a good alternative to the more expensive Panamax. Similar, but not as elaborate protection. You can often find cheaper units with similar protection, but at least as many of them are a joke. Hard to tell unless you take them apart to find out what they have in them.

just visited my local best buy and was told about their television calibration service:

1. $300
2. not an isf calibration, but same guys do it (or something like that)
3. they use a laptop connected to $7,000 of gear
4. all settings are recorded and you are given a printed graph showing before and after comparisons.

this is the one that make me go hmm...

5. all settings are done on the user menu NOT in the service menu.

now, please correct me if im wrong. but without going into the service menu, and using only the settings that are available to all of us, this sounds far more like a glorified avia/dvd essential calibration to me, doesnt it?

opinions?

I work back in home theater at BB and we just started offering calibration a few months ago. The people who do the calibration are ISF certified, and they do go into the service menu to perform a full calibration, so the person you talked to must not have known what they were talking about. Pretty soon one of our own installers is going to be certified so we have someone local who can do it (right now someone from Kansas City comes down to calibrate).

Previous posters talking about the over priced HDMI cables are right: they're a big source of revenue, and, as far as I know, make no difference in the picture quality. Alot of people are trying to spread the whole idea of "you need this cable if you have a TV with a 120 hz refresh rate." :rolleyes: I usually just reccomend the basic most basic ones that are hdmi certified, and ignore Monster's claims.

I also work for best buy and completly believe in the calibraiton we offer. I researched for as much information as I could on calibrations and put them towards my sales. I had sold many calibrations before I bought my Samsung LNT5271 with a calibration. And after it was done you can clearly see the difference. The calibration has many advantages to it. First of all what it does to your picture is incredible. It makes your tv reproduce the actual colors it is supposed to display unlike the toned up colors out of the box. You see alot more defiintion as well as depth. Whites can really tend to look unrealistic and too bright, where as this will fix that. Outside of picture, a calibration can really save you money in the long run. One because it makes your tv run at a lower temperature. I know it did on my Samsung. The ISF certified guy had a thermometer with him and before it ran at like 95 degrees and after it clocked in at 85. We actually have meters now that we have on our calibration display that calculate how much money it would cost you between the two. And depend on your tv it can save you over 100 bucks a year on power alone, as well as air conditioning costs with the heat the tv's give off. You can actually save money in the long run by getting your tv calibrated. I would highly recommend anyone wanted the best picture and performance to have this done. As long as someone who knows what their doing is performing the calibration, your going to be very happy with it.

And as far as the HDMI cables go, monster cables and surge protectors do make a difference. Connect two blu ray players side by side, one with a 50 dollar hdmi cable and the other with a 100 dollar monster 800 series and you will see a huge difference. Cheap cables are made with cheap materials with like 3 wires inside, where as monster cables have about 12 wires, some with gold connections, some silver, the shielding in the cables is what can make a big difference as well.

Guy saying you work in home theatre and don't realize there is a difference. COntact your monster rep cause thats pretty ridiculous.

And as far as the HDMI cables go, monster cables and surge protectors do make a difference. Connect two blu ray players side by side, one with a 50 dollar hdmi cable and the other with a 100 dollar monster 800 series and you will see a huge difference. Cheap cables are made with cheap materials with like 3 wires inside, where as monster cables have about 12 wires, some with gold connections, some silver, the shielding in the cables is what can make a big difference as well.

Wow.... just wow...

The level of misinformation in that post was just staggering.

I am not a BB fan but here is what the say about their calibration--note the ISF certified claim.

We'll calibrate your HDTV for optimal video performance, using the latest tools and techniques to create the most true-to-life high-definition experience for you. In addition to stunning picture quality, you'll benefit from reduced eye strain, longer TV life and significant energy savings. We'll also check your home theater system for proper operation, and organize and dress the wiring for a clean, professional look.

Product Features
Our highly trained, ISF-Certified Elite Service Specialists will:
Calibrate your TV to ISF standards for top video performance and create dedicated settings for two differet inputs (emphasis added).
Adjust the surround sound levels of the A/V receiver to ensure all the effect speakers are working optimally
Review and check the speaker system; verify that all speakers are properly positioned and working
Review and recommend any remote control features or capabilities that might be helpful to you now or in the future
Ensure that all wires and cables are neatly dressed, using wire ties as needed
Clean up work area and remove installation debris
Approximate time: 2 hrs.

I also work for best buy...

And as far as the HDMI cables go, monster cables and surge protectors do make a difference. Connect two blu ray players side by side, one with a 50 dollar hdmi cable and the other with a 100 dollar monster 800 series and you will see a huge difference. Cheap cables are made with cheap materials with like 3 wires inside, where as monster cables have about 12 wires, some with gold connections, some silver, the shielding in the cables is what can make a big difference as well.

Guy saying you work in home theatre and don't realize there is a difference. COntact your monster rep cause thats pretty ridiculous.

Really you should take a look at the HDMI spec. No cable with just 3 wires will work at all. NO cable with about 12 wires will work either. There is no "about" in the standard--every HDMI cable has exactly the same number and type of wires.

http://www.hdmi.com.au/Images/HDMI%20cable%20cross%20section.jpg

Here's a good comparison for Monster vs Mono-Price.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/feature/the-truth-about-monster-cable-part-2-verdict-cheap-cables-keep-upusually-268788.php

For 6 ft runs, it does not make a lick of difference. Makes a difference on long run cables and if you look at the tests, Monster failed on the long run futureworld scenario (as did monoprice).

And as far as the HDMI cables go, monster cables and surge protectors do make a difference. Connect two blu ray players side by side, one with a 50 dollar hdmi cable and the other with a 100 dollar monster 800 series and you will see a huge difference. Cheap cables are made with cheap materials with like 3 wires inside, where as monster cables have about 12 wires, some with gold connections, some silver, the shielding in the cables is what can make a big difference as well.

Guy saying you work in home theatre and don't realize there is a difference. COntact your monster rep cause thats pretty ridiculous.

Utter hogwash and flapdoodle!

Here is yet another telling expose':

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/packing_the_deal/

We actually have meters now that we have on our calibration display that calculate how much money it would cost you between the two. And depend on your tv it can save you over 100 bucks a year on power alone, as well as air conditioning costs with the heat the tv's give off. You can actually save money in the long run by getting your tv calibrated.

shano0603 you might as well just delete your user name & re sign up under a different name for a fresh start as everyone who has read your post has already added you to their block list.

I have no time for your Best Buy/Monster spam

Welcome to the block list.

One because it makes your tv run at a lower temperature. I know it did on my Samsung. The ISF certified guy had a thermometer with him and before it ran at like 95 degrees and after it clocked in at 85. We actually have meters now that we have on our calibration display that calculate how much money it would cost you between the two. And depend on your tv it can save you over 100 bucks a year on power alone, as well as air conditioning costs with the heat the tv's give off. .

There is some truth in this, at least for a plasma display.

The factory/showroom settings tend toward what some call torch level. The brighter the display the more power consumed (and the more waste heat generated) and a calibrated display will almost certainly be set to a lower level. Of course the user could do that much without any ISF training. There are many threads about this in the display forums.

Greetings

It should be noted that calibration is not about saving energy. You want to save energy ... turn the TV off and go ride a bike. :)

If it ends up saving energy ... it is simply a fortunate happenstance / by product. There is no assurance of such a thing happening anyway because it has everything to do with what the owners do to the TV themselves and the viewing environment where the TV is placed and when most of the viewing takes place.

Regards

If you have a plasma or CRT, then your consumed power will also vary with content. You’d save energy by surfing AVS with a dark background rather than the new white background. As AVS can have thousands of eyeballs looking at it at any given moment, the miniscule (but non-zero) energy saving would compound to larger miniscule energy savings.

There is a black background version of google using this notion that has an energy savings counter on it. Presently is shows 713,000 W/hrs of savings globally.

http://www.blackle.com/about/

Dave

Greetings

It should be noted that calibration is not about saving energy. You want to save energy ... turn the TV off and go ride a bike. :)

If it ends up saving energy ... it is simply a fortunate happenstance / by product. There is no assurance of such a thing happening anyway because it has everything to do with what the owners do to the TV themselves and the viewing environment where the TV is placed and when most of the viewing takes place.

Regards

I bow to an expert however, but no one said that energy savings was the goal of calibration. And your point about changes made by the end user is true of all settings, but that is not an argument against calibration.

I would rather that sales staff make claims that are at least possibly true based on the science involved, rather than the absurd and fantastic claims that are made about interconnects and power cleaners, for example.

By the way I ride a bike and use the AVS dark background--I've done my bit to combat global warming.;)
.

And as far as the HDMI cables go, monster cables and surge protectors do make a difference. Connect two blu ray players side by side, one with a 50 dollar hdmi cable and the other with a 100 dollar monster 800 series and you will see a huge difference. Cheap cables are made with cheap materials with like 3 wires inside, where as monster cables have about 12 wires, some with gold connections, some silver, the shielding in the cables is what can make a big difference as well.



Holy Crap Best Buy now uses Jedi Mind Tricks on their employees:p

just visited my local best buy and was told about their television calibration service:

3. they use a laptop connected to $7,000 of gear
4. all settings are recorded and you are given a printed graph showing before and after comparisons.


If you or anyone else has had this performed by Best Buy, out of more than idle curiosity, do you happen to know what calibration devices and software they use to come up with the $7000 figure.

I imagine it is standardized throughout the Best Buy Chaiin and is most likely one of the 3 Sencore Models, but would be curious as to exactly what they are using.

Well I got the calibration from Best Buy for free. Guy came yesterday, was isf certified, knew what he was doing, definately used the service menu, took his time, and got the tv perfect. Not saying this is the norm but they only have 2 of these techs in the Maryland, Deleware, PA area and at least the one I met knew what he was doing. It helped that I did too so their is always that. Some customers may be treated differently.

Same Question as you actually had the calibration done. Was it a circular "pod" that sat on the TV or was it a device that was most likely rectangular on a tripod in front of the TV?

All ISF Techs for Best Buy use either the Sencore CP3 and CP4 Pods, or the new CP5. Along with VP40* series generators and an array of calibration discs.

Had BB calibration done today on my Panny Plasma. This is in the Kansas City Area (Overland Park). He did any excellent job and did go into the service menu. He corrected the red push on the set that I was unable to do after much reading and attempts with the DVE Blu Ray disc. Also, the gray level settings are now very close to perfect. Next set I get I will certainly use them.

I've been following HD technologies for years and just wrapped up a short stint working at Best Buy in between jobs. I can tell you that there is pressure from supervisors and management to try selling the more expensive cables because there are higher profit margins.

What you might be disappointed to know is that most of the Home Theater department employees truly believe the rubbish that's out there about the "picture quality" difference between Monster and other manufacturers' cables.

Just so it makes you feel a bit better, when I sold HDMI cables I was very open and honest with customers. I told them that for fairly short distances, any brand of cable would be fine because the signal is all 1s and 0s anyway. I did point out that the higher the cost the better the build quality. But most customers were quick to point out -- and I'd agree that if you set up your home theater once and leave it that build quality doesn't have to be that great.

Had BB calibration done today on my Panny Plasma. This is in the Kansas City Area (Overland Park). He did any excellent job and did go into the service menu. He corrected the red push on the set that I was unable to do after much reading and attempts with the DVE Blu Ray disc. Also, the gray level settings are now very close to perfect. Next set I get I will certainly use them.

I read what you are saying, and it's not the first positive thing about BB cal jobs I've read.
But saying you will 'certainly' use them next time really has me wondering.

I think on the whole, they can not afford to screw anything up, but I've read where it's happened. And the proficiency and experience of the individual doing the work is always going to be a question.

Bottom Line: Who do you want in your home repairing or adjusting your electronics (assuming both had the same training)?

1) Somebody sent over from Best Buy or other 'GeekSqaud'.

2) Someone with years of experience and personal recommendations and referrals?

It's an easy choice for me.

And as far as the HDMI cables go, monster cables and surge protectors do make a difference. Connect two blu ray players side by side, one with a 50 dollar hdmi cable and the other with a 100 dollar monster 800 series and you will see a huge difference. Cheap cables are made with cheap materials with like 3 wires inside, where as monster cables have about 12 wires, some with gold connections, some silver, the shielding in the cables is what can make a big difference as well.

Guy saying you work in home theatre and don't realize there is a difference. COntact your monster rep cause thats pretty ridiculous.

Dude...you drank the BB koolaid. Shame on you for believing the retail marketing hype. Shameful.

I read what you are saying, and it's not the first positive thing about BB cal jobs I've read.
But saying you will 'certainly' use them next time really has me wondering.

I think on the whole, they can not afford to screw anything up, but I've read where it's happened. And the proficiency and experience of the individual doing the work is always going to be a question.

Bottom Line: Who do you want in your home repairing or adjusting your electronics (assuming both had the same training)?

1) Somebody sent over from Best Buy or other 'GeekSqaud'.

2) Someone with years of experience and personal recommendations and referrals?

It's an easy choice for me.


I am sure there are some good people working for BB and some bad ones. Same goes for calibrators whether they work for BB or themselves.

I for one would be skeptical of a plasma calibrated with pods these days, but if the end customer is happy with the result, who am I to tell him what he is missing (especially having not seen the set or the job).

Just like most things in life, the buyer needs to do his homework. If he/she/it doesn't, then no telling what they will get. The best thing for ISF/THX Calibrators (imo) is an informed consumer. If a calibrator will not answer your questions or gets upset at you asking questions prior to calibration (as some well known ISF calibrators on AVS have been known to do), better to move on.

On a related note...I can't even believe BB (or any brick and mortar) is still doing strong business with online shops pretty much destroying their pricing. I got a 37" 1080p LCD for about $600 less online (free shipping and no tax, as well) then what BB or CC could come close to for the same model. And I don't even have to mention cables and accessories.

I am sure there are some good people working for BB and some bad ones. Same goes for calibrators whether they work for BB or themselves.

I for one would be skeptical of a plasma calibrated with pods these days, but if the end customer is happy with the result, who am I to tell him what he is missing (especially having not seen the set or the job).


.


That's why you ask for referrals or recommendations.

I don't really care either, but calling a pod to do the work again based on one tech and one time, is really flipping a coin IMO. I guess if you could request a specific tech you know is good might help.

I always go with the independent contractor. Anybody with that kind of smarts and know-how to run his own business will likely have a good following of previous customers, and he is willing to let you call for referrals. No list, no job.

There's no magic involved here, it's just another service. Choose wisely.

HDMI is a digital solution. 1's and 0's. With digital, there is no degredation of signal like there is with analog. You either get it or you don't. If you've ever had a bad hdmi cable, you know what I'm talking about. A $10 cable you can get from monoprice will give you the exact same quality picture as a $100 cable you get at BB. Don't let anyone tell you any different. And if you don't believe me, just do a quick search and you'll find plenty of articles on this subject to back me up.

Also, I'm a computer engineer in my day job, so I know a little about 1's and 0's. ;-)

HDMI is a digital solution. 1's and 0's. With digital, there is no degredation of signal like there is with analog. You either get it or you don't. If you've ever had a bad hdmi cable, you know what I'm talking about. A $10 cable you can get from monoprice will give you the exact same quality picture as a $100 cable you get at BB. Don't let anyone tell you any different. And if you don't believe me, just do a quick search and you'll find plenty of articles on this subject to back me up.

Also, I'm a computer engineer in my day job, so I know a little about 1's and 0's. ;-)

You'd think so, considering it makes logical sense, but this recent Audioholics shoot-out proved otherwise. Their testing methodology and equipment sure seem on the level.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/long-hdmi-cable-bench-tests/?searchterm=Long%20HDMI%20Cable%20Bench%20Tests%20-%20Monster%20Cable%20Shootout

This has been an enlightening post. I'll stick with the $30 AVIA and DVE BR discs I own and do my own calibrations.

You'd think so, considering it makes logical sense, but this recent Audioholics shoot-out proved otherwise. Their testing methodology and equipment sure seem on the level.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/long-hdmi-cable-bench-tests/?searchterm=Long%20HDMI%20Cable%20Bench%20Tests%20-%20Monster%20Cable%20Shootout

This has been an enlightening post. I'll stick with the $30 AVIA and DVE BR discs I own and do my own calibrations.

The point of the review was to not to purport the idea that some HDMI cables pass a "better" picture than others. What it did illustrate is that once a cable's capabilities are exceeded, it becomes painfully apparent in the form of major data loss or complete picture loss. Basically, if a cable works as advertised, you'll see the whole picture bit for bit - if not, the picture will be unwatchable. There's no middle ground.

This is a completely different idea than the one pushed by some of the more "over-marketed" cable manufacturers - that somehow a better HDMI cable will pass a sharper, more saturated, or more 3D picture. True, one should pick a cable designed and engineered for the purpose which it is intended, but that hardly means that you're not getting all you can from your system if you didn't pay out the nose for ridiculously overpriced HDMI cables.

My point was that the "all-or-nothing" view does not hold out when testing longer runs. Signal degradation CAN exist in longer runs for HDMI, regardless of it being a digital signal, and that doesn't mean the picture will just disappear. But since causing that degradation requires pushing the cable to extreme lengths, a user is less likely to notice in most cases. I know I might be splitting hairs here, but this notion that the signal is either perfect or simply disappears completely isn't true in all cases, as is evident in their testing. You can see the snow on the Die Hard sample image they posted and I've listened to an interview with Clint Deboer where he states that yes, in fact, a signal delivered via HDMI can show degradation but still be watchable. It happened in their testing.

I agree with you point Hog Pilot, I might just be stating it differently. If so, I apologize.

The point of the review was to not to purport the idea that some HDMI cables pass a "better" picture than others. What it did illustrate is that once a cable's capabilities are exceeded, it becomes painfully apparent in the form of major data loss or complete picture loss. Basically, if a cable works as advertised, you'll see the whole picture bit for bit - if not, the picture will be unwatchable. There's no middle ground.

This is a completely different idea than the one pushed by some of the more "over-marketed" cable manufacturers - that somehow a better HDMI cable will pass a sharper, more saturated, or more 3D picture. True, one should pick a cable designed and engineered for the purpose which it is intended, but that hardly means that you're not getting all you can from your system if you didn't pay out the nose for ridiculously overpriced HDMI cables.


HDMI is a digital solution. 1's and 0's. With digital, there is no degredation of signal like there is with analog. You either get it or you don't. If you've ever had a bad hdmi cable, you know what I'm talking about. A $10 cable you can get from monoprice will give you the exact same quality picture as a $100 cable you get at BB. Don't let anyone tell you any different. And if you don't believe me, just do a quick search and you'll find plenty of articles on this subject to back me up.

Also, I'm a computer engineer in my day job, so I know a little about 1's and 0's. ;-)
I was surfing through the avs forums after a long time away, and just had to respond to this, and other similar posts.
HDMI is a digital solution, yes, but thinking it suffers no degradation if there is a picture is absolutely incorrect.
Just like Ethernet, which uses Differential Manchester Encoding, the cable medium actually carries an encoded signal. That is, dips and peaks in the electrical signal at a set oscillation. However, these are more of what you would call a logical dip and peak, with the actual signal actually having quite a bit of sloping and other non-uniform structures to the signal. The encoding and decoder then use a particular tolerance level for judging the main underlying signal.
Thing is, wires are not made of super conductive material (unless you live in liquid Nitrogen ;) ), so they suffer from resistance. Even more, they still suffer from cross-talk. Examining the HDMI cable structure, it seems they have attempted to minimize cross-talk, but outside influences can still affect them. The result? Periodic fluctuations in the signal along with, at times, incorrect decoding of the signal if the resistance of the wires, over a certain distance, start to decrease the difference between the peaks and dips in the encoded signal.
The signal may be digital, but it still uses electricity to carry the signal between sources. If the signal gets degraded, like mentioned above, you'll still get a picture (assuming the signal degradation doesn't mess with the security handshaking) but it could very well affect the information on the pixel level. This may represent itself in incorrect color representation, flickering pixels...etc, while still receiving a full image. Some of which, i have experienced personally.

My point was that the "all-or-nothing" view does not hold out when testing longer runs. Signal degradation CAN exist in longer runs for HDMI, regardless of it being a digital signal, and that doesn't mean the picture will just disappear. But since causing that degradation requires pushing the cable to extreme lengths, a user is less likely to notice in most cases. I know I might be splitting hairs here, but this notion that the signal is either perfect or simply disappears completely isn't true in all cases, as is evident in their testing. You can see the snow on the Die Hard sample image they posted and I've listened to an interview with Clint Deboer where he states that yes, in fact, a signal delivered via HDMI can show degradation but still be watchable. It happened in their testing.

I agree with you point Hog Pilot, I might just be stating it differently. If so, I apologize.

Okay, I see where you're coming from - yes, I agree, the fact that HDMI is a digital transmission medium doesn't make it 100% or 0%.

Just to clarify, when I said "unwatchable" I meant any of the major picture degradation like the kind that the reviewer noted - sparkles, snow, the lower half of the picture lighter than the upper half, etc. Sure, you can still see what's going on, but I wouldn't find that acceptable for watching and enjoying a movie.

The ignorance on this board is beyond comprehension. Please do not post false information.

First of all, on the monster cables. You pay extra for better shielding, higher bandwidth (in most cases), better color depth, and a lifetime guarantee on all their cables. Most other HDMI's you're looking at are about 3mbps, 4-bit color, and 90 days to a year on the warranty, not to mention very little shielding. Those things are what make the monster cables more expensive and yes, depending on the device hooked up to the cable, you may or may not see a difference. Of course there are some cables out there that offer these things too, but their price is right up there with the monster cables.

Secondly, on calibrations. Calibrations are something that WILL benefit you in the long run. Best Buy employees are ISF certified. The reason they are able to come out to the home and adjust your tv's without the manufacturers getting pissed is because:

1) Best Buy is the #1 electronic retail store in the U.S. so it's pretty smart for the manufacturers to allow them to calibrate their tv's since Best Buy makes them so much money.
2) Best Buy calibrators are ISF certified and their work is insured, so if anything happens to the TV, Best Buy will replace it for you, which just puts more money in the manufacturers pockets.


The calibration service has been proven to work. First Glimpse magazine has recently published an article on the importance of calibrations on TV's. IT IS NOT NEEDED. The calibration is entirely up to you, but it will improve the picture by removing some of the digitizing you see around the edges, the colors are adjusted so that the TV looks good in your particular viewing environment, you save money on your electrical bill every month, the TV WILL last longer by about 3-5 years, and yes, if you have ever had either a plasma or LCD TV, these things are like heaters and it will lower the temperature on the TV by about 10 degrees F. They do access the service menu, but they have been trained on how to adjust the settings in that menu. There's a reason why the manufacturers don't allow the owners themselves to have open access to this menu, because chances are YOU WILL BREAK THE TV.

The eye strain claim is also true. Try watching your TV in a room at night with no lights on, especially from 10 feet or less away. If you're close to the tv and viewiing it with no lights on, the TV will put strain on your eyes and cause them burn mildly and in some cases they will start to water. The calibration reduces this strain so when you are viewing the TV at night and trying to create a real Home Theater environment, you will be able to watch it from start to finish without blinking your eyes every half a second.

Go into a Best Buy (preferably Magnolia) and have an associate give you a demo on the calibration. Make sure to ask in advance if they are knowledgable around the calibration service so as not to get false information. See for yourself how a calibration will benefit you and based on the results, make your own decision as to whether or not it's worth it.

Those are potential byproducts of having your display calibrated. And I mean POTENTIAL. It is not the reason you get a television calibrated. If you want to save money on your electric bill you can start by turning off some lights. You calibrate a set to achieve accurate and stunning results. Also sounds like someone has drank some standard Koolaid. I have yet to see published studies regarding sets lasting longer by 3-5 years. So let you ask you a question. What is the standard lifespan for a television and if that lifespan is not increased by at least 3 years will BB give me a refund? I'm not totally disagreeing with you, i'm just saying those are very bold statements to make.

...you save money on your electrical bill every month, the TV WILL last longer by about 3-5 years....

The ignorance on this board is beyond comprehension. Please do not post false information.

First of all, on the monster cables. You pay extra for better shielding, higher bandwidth (in most cases), better color depth, and a lifetime guarantee on all their cables. Most other HDMI's you're looking at are about 3mbps, 4-bit color, and 90 days to a year on the warranty, not to mention very little shielding. Those things are what make the monster cables more expensive and yes, depending on the device hooked up to the cable, you may or may not see a difference. Of course there are some cables out there that offer these things too, but their price is right up there with the monster cables.

Ok, Mr. Obviously A Best Buy Employee,

First, there's no reason to get inflamatory just because you've bought into marketing hype.

Second, the only reason that Monster cable is more expensive is because you're paying for the name. Unless you're talking about a 50' plus HDMI run, you are not going to see any degredation in the signal between a Monster cable or a $10 cable from Monoprice. This has been scientifically tested many times. So long as the information from one end of the cable to the other end stays the same, you see the exact same picture.

I have both Monoprice and Big Box cables in my setup (before I knew of Monoprice) and I can assure you, there is no difference whatsoever between them.

The "Most other HDMI's you're looking at are about 3mbps, 4-bit color" is completely wrong. HDMI cables have a standard and certification for a reason. You get the same performance from an HDMI 1.3b ceritified cable from Monoprice as you do an HDMI 1.3b certified cable from Monster plain and simple.

If you are right and I am wrong, show me independant testing that proves otherwise. And by independant, I mean testing that wasn't sponsered or done by BB or Monster. I've definitely seen plenty of testing results that support my side of the argument.

first of all, if I worked for Best Buy I would simply say buy the calibration. Instead I recommend doing what is best for you.

I do agree to some extent it is the Monster name. But several manufacturers do that. Sony is probably the most over-priced manufacturer out there, but they still make a good product the same as monster.

Secondly, I didn't say anything about cable length. That's just common knowledge. So I don't see how that's relevant to my post.

Depending on the device you are hooking up, you may or may not see a difference. Difference devices are capable of faster transfer rates than others and that's where you may want to spring for the extra bandwidth.

And the fact that you say most HDMI cables have a standard is ridiculous. Go out and look at the packaging on an HDMI cable. The $10 cables won't even mention what kind of speeds they're capable of and the ones that are up in the $70-80 will display it in big bold print. There isn't a standard. And all it means when a cable is 1.3B certified is that it has met the testing standards. It doesn't have anything to do with the overall performance of the cable.

And where are these "scientific studies" you're talking about.

Ok, Mr. Obviously A Best Buy Employee,

First, there's no reason to get inflamatory just because you've bought into marketing hype.

Second, the only reason that Monster cable is more expensive is because you're paying for the name. Unless you're talking about a 50' plus HDMI run, you are not going to see any degredation in the signal between a Monster cable or a $10 cable from Monoprice. This has been scientifically tested many times. So long as the information from one end of the cable to the other end stays the same, you see the exact same picture.

I have both Monoprice and Big Box cables in my setup (before I knew of Monoprice) and I can assure you, there is no difference whatsoever between them.

The "Most other HDMI's you're looking at are about 3mbps, 4-bit color" is completely wrong. HDMI cables have a standard and certification for a reason. You get the same performance from an HDMI 1.3b ceritified cable from Monoprice as you do an HDMI 1.3b certified cable from Monster plain and simple.

If you are right and I am wrong, show me independant testing that proves otherwise. And by independant, I mean testing that wasn't sponsered or done by BB or Monster. I've definitely seen plenty of testing results that support my side of the argument.

Those are potential byproducts of having your display calibrated. And I mean POTENTIAL. It is not the reason you get a television calibrated. If you want to save money on your electric bill you can start by turning off some lights. You calibrate a set to achieve accurate and stunning results. Also sounds like someone has drank some standard Koolaid. I have yet to see published studies regarding sets lasting longer by 3-5 years. So let you ask you a question. What is the standard lifespan for a television and if that lifespan is not increased by at least 3 years will BB give me a refund? I'm not totally disagreeing with you, i'm just saying those are very bold statements to make.

I should have said "on average." The average LCD/Plasma TV lasts 12-14 years (or 60,000 hours). Chances are BB will not give you a refund if your TV does not last 15 years minimum because there are other factors to take into account. Manufacturer defects, wear and tear, how much the TV is actually being used, other damages that may occur. And yes, if you want to save money, turn off some lights. But if you want to have a fantastic looking TV, get a calibration.

Here are a few:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDw2ZSDzlMw

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11276_7-6845988-3.html?tag=lnav

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hdmi-cable-battlemodo/the-truth-about-monster-cable-part-2-268788.php

http://www.pcworld.com/article/121777/the_cable_game.html

I can post many more if you'd like. :-)

Okay so now we're determining HDMI standards based on what the packaging says :rolleyes:
I'm afraid you are showing your lack of knowledge regarding HDMI standards. One of the testing standards you mention for HDMI certification is throughput. See below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HDMI_and_Blu-ray_Disc_players

...And the fact that you say most HDMI cables have a standard is ridiculous. Go out and look at the packaging on an HDMI cable. The $10 cables won't even mention what kind of speeds they're capable of and the ones that are up in the $70-80 will display it in big bold print....

Alright,
#1) Best Buy calibration technicians DO go into the service menu to make adjustments to the picture, TRUST ME! I work at Best Buy (unfortunately), and I've seen TV's calibrated in my store. They do things that you CANNOT do in the TV menu.

#2) Calibration doesn't save you that much $$$ over the course of a year. An average annual savings of maybe $30 on a plasma if you watch an average of 6 1/2 hours a day. This means that calibration will pay for itself over the course of about 10 years.

#3) Calibration significantly cuts down the amount of heat that is produced by plasma screens. This will help the TV last longer and reduce the risk of blown pixels. LCD's don't generate much heat to begin with so it makes little difference.

#4) You CAN calibrate the TV yourself TO A CERTAIN POINT. Go to CNET.com and follow their basic calibration instructions. Honestly, you can get the TV about 80% calibrated if you have a sharp eye. The color levels are still going to be somewhat inaccurate and you won't see quite as much detail in dark areas, but considering you didn't spend $300 to do it... you be the judge.

If you really strive for perfect detail, then it might be worth getting your TV calibrated. If you just like to casually watch TV and don't care as much if it's perfect, then by all means, save yourself $300 and visit CNET.com.

One of the idiots at a Magnolia told me...and I kid you not.....that front projectors cannot produce real HD because the light spreads out as soon as it leaves the lens. 1080P is impossible with a front projector. Best Buy store on Airport HGY, Toledo Ohio.

Seriously...he argued with me. Why would you even consider using these fools to do anything in your home?

One of the idiots at a Magnolia told me...and I kid you not.....that front projectors cannot produce real HD because the light spreads out as soon as it leaves the lens. 1080P is impossible with a front projector. Best Buy store on Airport HGY, Toledo Ohio.

Seriously...he argued with me. Why would you even consider using these fools to do anything in your home?

I had one tell me a cablecard tuner did NOT have a QAM tuner in it. I said, how does it tune the cable channel then? and got a blank stare.

Clearly, the salespeople do not need to be ISF trained (though they should).

Alright,
#1) Best Buy calibration technicians DO go into the service menu to make adjustments to the picture, TRUST ME! I work at Best Buy (unfortunately), and I've seen TV's calibrated in my store. They do things that you CANNOT do in the TV menu.

#4) You CAN calibrate the TV yourself TO A CERTAIN POINT. Go to CNET.com and follow their basic calibration instructions. Honestly, you can get the TV about 80% calibrated if you have a sharp eye. The color levels are still going to be somewhat inaccurate and you won't see quite as much detail in dark areas, but considering you didn't spend $300 to do it... you be the judge.

This is not correct. Anyone who knows what they are doing can calibrate a display. I have my Samsung LN-T4661F completely D65 calibrated in the service menu so that I don't have to touch anything but the backlight in the user menu. Granted, that model of TV doesn't have anything beyond greyscale controls, so you can't set the gamut on the TV, but to say that your average Joe can't "completely" calibrate a TV is patently false.

Anyone who knows what they are doing can calibrate a display .

to say that your average Joe can't "completely" calibrate a TV is patently false.

ergo, the every average joe has the know how to calibrate a display (and has the proper equipment to do it) :eek:

Greetings

"need pro calibration to see more detail in the dark area" ... paraphrased.

hmmmm ...

anyone with the Free THX optimode can setup contrast and brightness properly. Don't need a pro to do that unless you are alone and without arms. (Or illiterate)

The challenge is knowing that the setting you arrive at is the correct one ... and that nothing along the way is messing with the signal. (Like the DVD player crushing black on the output signal)

regards

ergo, the every average joe has the know how to calibrate a display (and has the proper equipment to do it) :eek:

Exactly. I've calibrated my sets after years of "part time" study on the topic through websites like these and used an Eye-One LT to do it. But am still having a pro come by in October to get my new Samsung "perfect" and hopefully learn so much more (and figure out how much of what I think I know is simply wrong!)! ... thank you Mr. TLV!

Edit: Oh, and by "exactly", I mean that the "average joe" has no idea how to calibrate a set even remotely close to "correct". The "not so average" joe's like myself may get their sets say 70 or 80% of the way there with some inexpensive equipment and hours and hours and hours of reading over the web, but probably still don't know 10% of what a good ISF trained pro understands.

Exactly. I've calibrated my sets after years of "part time" study on the topic through websites like these and used an Eye-One LT to do it. But am still having a pro come by in October to get my new Samsung "perfect" and hopefully learn so much more (and figure out how much of what I think I know is simply wrong!)! ... thank you Mr. TLV!

Edit: Oh, and by "exactly", I mean that the "average joe" has no idea how to calibrate a set even remotely close to "correct". The "not so average" joe's like myself may get their sets say 70 or 80% of the way there with some inexpensive equipment and hours and hours and hours of reading over the web, but probably still don't know 10% of what a good ISF trained pro understands.

You are lucky you have such a knowledgable person to learn from.

I had one tell me a cablecard tuner did NOT have a QAM tuner in it. I said, how does it tune the cable channel then? and got a blank stare.

Clearly, the salespeople do not need to be ISF trained (though they should).

*Facepalm*

Mod's, can we ban the idiotic employees that have posted in this thread? If I read another post about our calibrations extending the lifespan of the TV or cutting down on your air conditioning costs, I think blood will shoot out my nose.

Hopefully some of you guys know me from the Amp, Receiver and Processor thread. If not, take a look in the Harman/Kardon threads...I just want to make sure everyone understands that I'm not your typical Best Buy employee. I have never drank the Kool-Aid from my employer, and neither do my employees.

When we first got the in-store advertising stating that calibrations reduce your energy costs, we called our district manager and told him we were pulling that signage. It's not true. As previously stated in this thread...any energy savings are a nice side effect, but not a main benefit. Calibrations are great, as anyone posting in this thread undoubtedly knows. If you're unsure whether to go with Best Buy or not, ask to speak to their calibrator. Ask him what kind of equipment he uses, was he trained by ISF or was he in the second wave of calibrators? It's just like picking a contractor for your house...you wouldn't just pick the big guys in town without finding out more about them, would you? I know I wouldn't. If you don't like the answers you're getting, then move on to someone else.

As far as the Monster Cables...independent testing has pretty much put all those claims to rest. In extreme circumstances, including long runs and above 1080p video, high end "boutique" brand cables can make a difference. The average person, though, will never see a difference when hooking up a Blu Ray player and their surround sound. There is just no difference, plain and simple.

When we first got the in-store advertising stating that calibrations reduce your energy costs, we called our district manager and told him we were pulling that signage. It's not true. As previously stated in this thread...any energy savings are a nice side effect, but not a main benefit.


You are absolutely incorrect stating that a calibrated TV will NOT reduce your energy consumption.
As an ISF instructor and participant in the research grant we conducted for the California Energy Commission regarding energy usage with Plasma and LCD Flat Panel TVs, it was very common for displays that came out of the box, connected to signal, and viewed in the OOB default preset to use 20% more enegry during operation than a set that was in a mode that manufacturers designate as a reduced Contrast mode (Movie, or Cinema, for example).

The methodology was to adjust Contrast and Black Level in the default mode for correct viewing (even that was perhaps an unfair advantage as it likely lowered the consumption slightly, compared to the manufacturer's defaulted settings) and then measure wattage consumed using a Brand Electronics E127 OneMeter Digital Power Meter.
The meter was connected to the wall outlet the display would be connected to, and the display was connected to the meter.
Power consumption was monitored and recorded starting with the default settings (adjusted as described above) and then post-calibration to ISF reference standards.
Plasma displays on average offered a 20% reduction in energy comsumption, in the 42"-50" sizes, and LCD's varied (especially with Backlight adjustment) depending on screen sizes with 15% to as much as 30% energy reductions.

The State of California was supremely keen to learn of the potential reduction to drain of the "grid" with these results. So much so, that you shouldn't be surprised if in the near future, out-of-of the box default will be the polar opposite of the current (no pun intended) norm: Reduced Contrast will be the default, as most people conclude that is the most logical setting for them, if that is how the manufacturer has shipped the unit. For ramping up the Contrast, the consumer will be forced to make adjustments (as a fourm person, you couldn't perhaps put your head around the notion that most consumers are timidly afraid to adjust things that make absolutely no sense to them). Speaking of opinion with this next statement and no basis in fact, I would estimate that of the 27 million TVs sold in the past 12 calendar months, 80% or greater are as they came out of the box.
To not believe that a state like California would legislate to earn a reduction in grid consumption by 5-10% (most households have multiple sets in use simulaneously) is naive. Look at the CAFE standard they legislatively imposed on Ca. destined autos and emissions requirements of non-Ca. cars moved into the state.
Let me make it clear that the ISF was commissioned to conduct the research grant, and in no manner made conclusive suggestions to influence decision- making. We merely supplied the contracted data with the arrived at results.

And to speak to the second point made by jayhawk, we would not advocate calibrating a display merely for the derived energy savings. As was said, it is a pleasant by-product as an after-affect of improved image fidelity that energy savings can be reaped, however, that is not the raison d'etre to do so.

Jayhawk, if you are connected to Best Buy, please cease to denounce that energy savings can not be netted. In a short period of time, you will be proven to suffer a demerit to your credulity. It needn't be mentioned or stressed whatsoever, though going out of your way to appear more brilliant than the folks in Mn. may have a deleterious affect on your career.

If anyone would care to discuss this in person and would be occasioning to visit CEDIA, I can be found at the ISF seminar location on Sunday, September 7th preparing the room for the seminar the 8th and 9th.

ergo, the every average joe has the know how to calibrate a display (and has the proper equipment to do it) :eek:

I phrased my response to GCmusic22 poorly. I was NOT saying that anyone can just pick up their remote and properly calibrate a display - they have to have the equipment and knowledge to do it.

The tone of GC's post was that end users cannot fully calibrate displays. This is NOT true, again assuming the end user has the know-how and basic equipment.

Do I think what I do is as good as what a professional with gear that costs many times more than my display can do? Absolutely not. Do I think I can get a close solution that will make me happy? Yes - and the best part is that I get to learn every time I calibrate a display. I have quite a bit of admiration and respect for professional calibrators who have forgotten more than I know about the subject - maybe some day with some hard work and a lot of patience, I can be in their shoes - everyone has to start somewhere.

You are absolutely incorrect stating that a calibrated TV will NOT reduce your energy consumption.
*snip*

I cut the rest of that response for space reasons, but I think you misunderstood the point of my post...while at the same time catching it later in your response. I picked a poor choice of words when I said that it's not true, but re-stated it in the same paragraph. The main benefit of an ISF-certified tech calibrating your display is the improved image quality. Energy savings are a nice side benefit of it, but shouldn't be the sole reason for an end user to get their set calibrated. That's the point I was trying to make with my post...the average Best Buy employee will hammer the energy savings home as a huge benefit to the consumer walking in, when anyone who works with calibrations on a regular basis knows that every set is different. One person may see a relatively huge difference on a power meter reading, while his neighbor's energy savings may be negligible at best.

We protested putting up the signs in store due to the signage itself being misleading in stating that every customer would see x amount of energy savings. When corporate took a step back and though twice about how they phrased it, they pulled those signs and re-did the advertising for them.

Your suggestion that I not attempt to make myself appear more intelligent than my colleagues in Richfield, Minnesota is misguided at best, and downright offensive at worst. I wasn't attempting to make myself appear better than anyone in the company. We all have our roles to play, and we all make mistakes. In this case, our advertising team made a poor decision, we pointed that out to them and the problem was fixed. Hardly, as you so eloquently put, "deleterious" on my career. I would hope that any of my co-workers would be willing to point out problems in my decision making process, as well.

Not being afraid to step outside the box is something that typically gets one noticed in a career path. I hope that staying in lock-step with each other and being unwilling to point out flaws in judgement are not qualities that ISF encourages it's members to have.

I feel like I have waxed a bit poetic here, but the underlying fact is this: You fired from the hip on your reply to me. You obviously are quite knowledgeable regarding ISF techniques and procedures, but don't mistake your professional knowledge as a "holier than thou" card to instantly cut down anyone who has an opinion...especially when that opinion is the same one that you voiced in your reply.

Do I think what I do is as good as what a professional with gear that costs many times more than my display can do? Absolutely not. Do I think I can get a close solution that will make me happy? Yes - and the best part is that I get to learn every time I calibrate a display. I have quite a bit of admiration and respect for professional calibrators who have forgotten more than I know about the subject - maybe some day with some hard work and a lot of patience, I can be in their shoes - everyone has to start somewhere.

From one DIY calibrator to the next, HI-FIVE! :p

I cut the rest of that response for space reasons, but I think you misunderstood the point of my post...while at the same time catching it later in your response. I picked a poor choice of words when I said that it's not true, but re-stated it in the same paragraph. The main benefit of an ISF-certified tech calibrating your display is the improved image quality. Energy savings are a nice side benefit of it, but shouldn't be the sole reason for an end user to get their set calibrated. That's the point I was trying to make with my post...the average Best Buy employee will hammer the energy savings home as a huge benefit to the consumer walking in, when anyone who works with calibrations on a regular basis knows that every set is different. One person may see a relatively huge difference on a power meter reading, while his neighbor's energy savings may be negligible at best.

We protested putting up the signs in store due to the signage itself being misleading in stating that every customer would see x amount of energy savings. When corporate took a step back and though twice about how they phrased it, they pulled those signs and re-did the advertising for them.

Your suggestion that I not attempt to make myself appear more intelligent than my colleagues in Richfield, Minnesota is misguided at best, and downright offensive at worst. I wasn't attempting to make myself appear better than anyone in the company. We all have our roles to play, and we all make mistakes. In this case, our advertising team made a poor decision, we pointed that out to them and the problem was fixed. Hardly, as you so eloquently put, "deleterious" on my career. I would hope that any of my co-workers would be willing to point out problems in my decision making process, as well.

Not being afraid to step outside the box is something that typically gets one noticed in a career path. I hope that staying in lock-step with each other and being unwilling to point out flaws in judgement are not qualities that ISF encourages it's members to have.

I feel like I have waxed a bit poetic here, but the underlying fact is this: You fired from the hip on your reply to me. You obviously are quite knowledgeable regarding ISF techniques and procedures, but don't mistake your professional knowledge as a "holier than thou" card to instantly cut down anyone who has an opinion...especially when that opinion is the same one that you voiced in your reply.

Your original post was constructed of terse, point driven statements:
"When we first got the in-store advertising stating that calibrations reduce your energy costs, we called our district manager and told him we were pulling that signage. It's not true."

You then muse that there is a side benefit -
"As previously stated in this thread...any energy savings are a nice side effect, but not a main benefit. Calibrations are great, as anyone posting in this thread undoubtedly knows." - but proceed into postulating the merits of a Best Buy calibration: "If you're unsure whether to go with Best Buy or not,..."
I acknowledge that in your retort you feel you were misunderstood, however if you re-read your own words, your statement portending any reaped energy savings due to calibration is declaratory, seemingly unequivocal, and suggests little or no room for anything contrary to what you state to be possible. And continuing on, you present an aire of espousing your local authority by stating "we called our district manager and told him we were pulling that signage" implying, and speaking to my point, that you were taking the law into your own hands despite, perhaps, "corporate's" wishes otherwise.

How you interlace with the BB culture and management style is not my concern, and I retract and apologize for any inference pertaining to your abilities thereof. I sought only to clarify that your initial stated stance was and is fundamentally untrue.

As for "holier than thou"...no. More knowledgeable, perhaps, and you weren't being "cut down" for your opinion, you were being cited for declaring your opinion as definitively factual, less of course your further qualification regarding energy savings as a residual benefit. The identical opinion, as you state, is stressed in class that we would calibrate anyway - and have been for 13 years.

jeees, louise.....why don't you both let go - Mr ISF because your 'holier than thou' gold membership reeks stronger than the mightiness of your high horse, and Jayhawk, because yes, your statements needed clarification after the fact, were initially untrue, but fully qualified at the bottom line, and shouldn't have had to defend yourself against such a pompous and assumptive (and lying) academic.
Mr. ISF - there was absolutely NO HINT of any effort on JHawk's part to go out of his way to appear more brilliant by calling his district manager. I call my boss on the phone frequently, as JHawk did and as I do when I am going to do something which I feel needs expressing because of it's import. You, on the other hand clearly projected your own issues which in this case, specifically betrays your issues with addressing authority. hmmm....don't have a chatty relationship with your Boss?
You retraction and apology pertaining to JHk's abilities at his work, well..., nice try, but your bitterness and cat claw scratching was far greater than what JHk discretely and reservedly called a cut down, not even relevant to a 'citing' and was more accurately drenched in....well....for lack of....ByOtchiness. Jhk's career is not the sum of his demerits, and your visious attacks seemed to fly out from left field. (And who cares about my spelling or my typos, I'm a concert pianist, not an English prof, and English is not my native tongue.) JayHawk -- you can make my Mac snap anytime.

jeees, louise.....why don't you both let go

I think they probably have let it go considering the nearly two weeks since the last post in this thread.

And as far as the HDMI cables go, monster cables and surge protectors do make a difference. Connect two blu ray players side by side, one with a 50 dollar hdmi cable and the other with a 100 dollar monster 800 series and you will see a huge difference. Cheap cables are made with cheap materials with like 3 wires inside, where as monster cables have about 12 wires, some with gold connections, some silver, the shielding in the cables is what can make a big difference as well.

Guy saying you work in home theatre and don't realize there is a difference. COntact your monster rep cause thats pretty ridiculous.

Wait, i think he means there's 12 wires inside of every other wire instead of 3 wires inside of every other wire.. Did you actually cut cables for this? or you just looked it up in the picture that's on the back of the monster cable package?

When did they start doing this?

I purchased the Best Buy TV calibration service earlier in the week. Aaron from the Best Buy store in Lake Charles, LA came out yesterday and performed the work on my Sony KDS-R60XBR1 LCD rear projection set. I was hoping it would improve my set and I am not disappointed. I have used the AVIA disc to calibrate this set and the picture was good but now it is spectactular. The colors are much more realistic, the picture has a more clean 3D realistic look. Watching the NFL in hd is even better than it was before and blu ray movies on my PS3 are amazing, they always looked like they weren't living up to their potential but now I see what they can do. Aaron told us that our factory grayscale was off his meter and he got it back down to near the 6500K standard. I highly recommend the service.
Kevin

I'll tackle this thread later =D

A buddy of mine used their services here in NY and he said it was worth it.

And as far as the HDMI cables go, monster cables and surge protectors do make a difference. Connect two blu ray players side by side, one with a 50 dollar hdmi cable and the other with a 100 dollar monster 800 series and you will see a huge difference. Cheap cables are made with cheap materials with like 3 wires inside, where as monster cables have about 12 wires, some with gold connections, some silver, the shielding in the cables is what can make a big difference as well.

Guy saying you work in home theatre and don't see there is a difference. COntact your monster rep cause thats pretty ridiculous.

.....Unbelievable, do you understand anything about digital signals and wiring. I feel as if you are trying to sell me something right now. All you have done is proven to me that best buy salesman have no idea what they are doing.

Wait, i think he means there's 12 wires inside of every other wire instead of 3 wires inside of every other wire.. Did you actually cut cables for this? or you just looked it up in the picture that's on the back of the monster cable package?

How many times do people have to say this. It doesn't matter if there are a thousand wires or one. Either the signal gets through or it doesn't.

With digital signal transmission there can be issues with cross-talk and interference. Decent shielding found on any HDMI 1.3x spec cable should meet this. There's no need to pay more than $10 for a 1m HDMI cable.

jeff

My dad purchased a new Samsung LCD and Best Buy is supposed to come out and calibrate it in a few weeks. At the sale, they sold my dad a set of Monster HDMI cables which kind of made me angry. Especially when Big Lots has HDMI's for $6.00 down the street.

I plan on being around when they arrive to calibrate his set and, after they are done talking about how great his set looks after their calibration work, I'll take them upstairs to see my 34XS955 that I calibrated myself using the service menu, my knowledge of their parameters from Kentech's thread, my own discoveries, and a tablet PC with a cheap colorimeter. I also plan on letting them hear my 7.1 Pio Elite system too.

I'm just not sure what Bluray movie to show (I'm considering I Am Legend, I really like the deer chase scene) and I'll probably set up a hidden camera to record the whole thing too. Cause unless these guys are ISF certified or, truly know what they are doing, I'm betting they will be a little stunned.

Now if they claim they can get my geometry better, and fix a few other nitpick issues I have with my set then maybe I'll be stunned and spending $300 :)

Greetings

The ISF says they are ISF certified. If you have a problem with that ... then it is with the ISF and not BB. ISF allows them to fly the banner.

Regards

CJsellsTVs,

There is a reason why Samsung LCD's come out of the box so bright they'll blind your cat.

Thanks, I needed that . . . . ROFLMAO

Nutt

So BB came out today and calibrated my parents Samsung. I'd have to say I'm impressed, the guy obviously knew more than I did from a technical standpoint and did a good job with the TV. Keep in mind though, this calibration only lasted about 2 hours so the set isn't perfect but, for the time he was there it made a pretty tremendous difference for the TV (LCD Samsung). The experience also made me feel more confident about my calibration skills. This guy was ISF certified and had 10 thousand bucks worth of equipment and did a fine job. However, I could still see that there were things that needed to be corrected, which isn't saying anything bad about the calibration but, tells me that I do actually know a little about what I'm doing with my own calibration. For instance, there is a bubbly looking fringe that shows up on one side of the screen, the colors still don't look perfect, and the overscan isn't 0% but, the set really does resemble the calibration I've done on my tv. Whites look great like mine, primaries look great too, like mine, secondaries don't look perfect but are extremely close, mine are pretty much spot on but, it could simply be that the CMS in the Samsung isn't capable (as even with the primaries I see a tiny hint of green in the yellows) though all this could just be the broadcasting material as I'm basing my findings from the Dish Network HD channel I was watching. Of course it's an LCD so the geometry and convergence look really good, better than my CRT, but my set has a bit better overscan. (The samsung has some kind of auto setting that sets the overscan based on the video content but it isn't perfect as the bottom still gets about 1/4 inch cut off.)

I'd have to say it was a great experience and for people that don't have the time or patience to do any calibration on their own I think the service is worth it. Although, I'm sure these guys don't have enough time to sit around and tweak specific codes tailored for the TV, (such as adjusting some of the internal focus tweaks I found on my xs955) it would have been nice to see what else they could do to the samsung if time permitted. It also saved me the countless hours of hunting down service code charts and setting up the tablet pc and colorimeter.

My only complaint wouldn't be with the calibrator but with BB sales reps for selling my parents an LCD and not a Plasma or Panny. Even after an ISF calibration that Samsung LCD just doesn't look as nice as my CRT. If you set the Samsung to 1080p and my CRT to 480p they look comparable. Run my set at 720p or 1080i and there just isn't any contest, the clarity, resolution, and black levels just rip the Samsung apart. For an LCD the set still looks great, but there's no way I'd settle for it in my living room.

As for the BB calibration, they guy was fast, very knowledgeable, and had a fantastic attitude. Although, I'm not sure spending $300 would be worth it for someone as myself it was absolutely worth every penny for my parents.

They get my two thumbs up.

Just my two cents... I realize there is a lot of Best Buy bashing here. I'm a Best Buy employee and have been with the company since Nov. 2005. There is no way that I would ever try to speak for the company, but I do want to say that there are a lot of employees who do know what they are talking about and will guide you to a system to meet your needs. When we picked up calibration as a geek squad service, I thought it was just a sales pitch. Doing some research, I realize the benefits of calibration, but for most people, a simple user menu adjustment will do fine. I believe in the service we do, I personally have met all 4 of our calibrators in our district, and I believe in their work. I'm just a college kid working there to help pay for school. I've gone through the trainings and tests and I am magnolia certified according to the company, but even then I'm not going to say that I'm the best. I do my job as best I can, and my job is to find a setup that fits a customer's needs.

I got a 25' hdmi cable for $20.00 here locally... it's a really nice cable too.. it runs 1080p24 just fine between a denon dvd transport and a sony vpl-hw10... Save your flippin money and tell best buy to take a hike.. they don't have a clue.... I take that back.. the clue they do have is.. how to rip the consumer off....

I was recently in best buy looking at their screen demonstration and heard some employee telling him how he would still have to use the rca red/white with a dvd player to his tv because his old dvd player didn't have hdmi and his new receiver did... wow

Calibrationg an LCD is a complete waste of time and money! Calibrating a Plasma reaps significant benefits in performance. The TV will run cooler and consume up to 30% less energy! It will look better, more accurate, more detail and the colors will just jump out at you. Different plasma respond differently to a full calibration. Don't expect to see anything better on an LCD calibration. It most likely will look worse if you calibrate an LCD!

Calibrationg an LCD is a complete waste of time and money! Calibrating a Plasma reaps significant benefits in performance. The TV will run cooler and consume up to 30% less energy! It will look better, more accurate, more detail and the colors will just jump out at you. Different plasma respond differently to a full calibration. Don't expect to see anything better on an LCD calibration. It most likely will look worse if you calibrate an LCD!

And how did you come up with this conclusion?

Greetings

It's the same drone that keeps resigning up under yet another name to spew the same drivel. Another person to the ignore list.

regards

Calibrationg an LCD is a complete waste of time and money! Calibrating a Plasma reaps significant benefits in performance. The TV will run cooler and consume up to 30% less energy! It will look better, more accurate, more detail and the colors will just jump out at you. Different plasma respond differently to a full calibration. Don't expect to see anything better on an LCD calibration. It most likely will look worse if you calibrate an LCD!

And the world is flat as well....don't go too far away or you will fall off the edges....

i wouldnt normally call anyone an idiot, but wow what an idiot

HDMI is a digital solution. 1's and 0's. With digital, there is no degredation of signal like there is with analog. You either get it or you don't. If you've ever had a bad hdmi cable, you know what I'm talking about. A $10 cable you can get from monoprice will give you the exact same quality picture as a $100 cable you get at BB. Don't let anyone tell you any different. And if you don't believe me, just do a quick search and you'll find plenty of articles on this subject to back me up.

Also, I'm a computer engineer in my day job, so I know a little about 1's and 0's. ;-)

The digital signal could get extremely corrupted [invert] as it accumulates noise over a long length of cable. Just buy a hdmi certified logo cable to be safe better than sorry. Buying $$$$ PJ to couple with cheapo hdmi cable just to save a few $$ does not make sense, does it. Sony 1.3a 5m run length comes at just about 60$ so why expose & frustate oneself with the consequences of Murphy's Law just to save say what a 30$?

I was surfing through the avs forums after a long time away, and just had to respond to this, and other similar posts.
HDMI is a digital solution, yes, but thinking it suffers no degradation if there is a picture is absolutely incorrect.
Just like Ethernet, which uses Differential Manchester Encoding, the cable medium actually carries an encoded signal. That is, dips and peaks in the electrical signal at a set oscillation. However, these are more of what you would call a logical dip and peak, with the actual signal actually having quite a bit of sloping and other non-uniform structures to the signal. The encoding and decoder then use a particular tolerance level for judging the main underlying signal.
Thing is, wires are not made of super conductive material (unless you live in liquid Nitrogen ;) ), so they suffer from resistance. Even more, they still suffer from cross-talk. Examining the HDMI cable structure, it seems they have attempted to minimize cross-talk, but outside influences can still affect them. The result? Periodic fluctuations in the signal along with, at times, incorrect decoding of the signal if the resistance of the wires, over a certain distance, start to decrease the difference between the peaks and dips in the encoded signal.
The signal may be digital, but it still uses electricity to carry the signal between sources. If the signal gets degraded, like mentioned above, you'll still get a picture (assuming the signal degradation doesn't mess with the security handshaking) but it could very well affect the information on the pixel level. This may represent itself in incorrect color representation, flickering pixels...etc, while still receiving a full image. Some of which, i have experienced personally.

Even in lick nitro, the cable would still be afflicted with random noise. Only at 0 Kelvin[a theoretical ideal temperature at which all atomic motion is supposed to cease] can the noise be zero. So, you could have only random parts of the image affected with any signal- digital or analog. Those random parts would show up as noise[snow/flicker etc] or as image deformities. No cable is free from noise, though digital [hdmi] can take all noise bashing at moderate levels of noise with no distortion, up the noise & the info contained reverses!! For low noise medium/cable, digital will have minimal imperfections. With high noise levels, digital will be totally grotesque & for somewhat median noise levels some bits[ picture/sound carrying bits] can be in error & some error free. Hope this clears up the digital mythos.

On Calibration:

In my district, there are two ISF techs; Brian and Gregg. Both are excellent. They calibrate the demo models in the store from time to time and they look superb. Post-calibration color delta readings are below 3% on higher-end sets. So, if you expect your TV be in top PQ form, get a calibration.

On Monster:

I've written at this forum a number of times that the superiority of Monster cables is a very well-sold lie. Anyone with a shred of knowledge of A/V knows that when "120Hz Certified" is marked on a cable, you're dealing with outright dishonesty. Monster hosts training meetings now and then, and I am telling you what, its like sitting in Sunday service with a cult.

On random and unnecessary insults:

One of the idiots at a Magnolia told me...and I kid you not.....that front projectors cannot produce real HD because the light spreads out as soon as it leaves the lens. 1080P is impossible with a front projector. Best Buy store on Airport HGY, Toledo Ohio.

Seriously...he argued with me. Why would you even consider using these fools to do anything in your home?

So, let's look at the reasoning, here.

Premise: One (presumably green) Magnolia Pro made a false assertion about front projection. That is, ∃x∃y(Fxy & Mx) (read, there exists some x (the salesman), who made false statement (F) about y (front projection technology); and that same x is a Magnolia employee.

Therefore: All Best Buy/Geek Squad employees are inept. Id est, ∀x(Bx → Ix) (read, for any x, if x is BB/GS employee, then x is inept).

This inference doesn't look like it is going to be accommodated by a consistent decision procedure, so if you don't mind, please either retract your rash and rude generalization or deliver a full proof for the rule of inference to which you've appealed.

If you'd like me to affix semantic values to each node of the omitted construction trees (assume MIT school syntactical analysis), I'd be happy to render a Montague-school currying of the predicate calculus expressions, with full recursive definitions in set theoretic terms.
__

The argument is constructed this way in an attempt to demonstrate that Best Buy employees are very often articulate, well-informed, and capable of offering logically/scientifically up-to-par advice and analysis.

I am a Magnolia Pro, and I am not going to be shy about this: in most respects, I am damned clever. Calling me and all of the other sharp BB employees "fools" is stupid.

Even in lick nitro, the cable would still be afflicted with random noise. Only at 0 Kelvin[a theoretical ideal temperature at which all atomic motion is supposed to cease] can the noise be zero.
To go a bit more indepth, I brought up liquid nitrogen because i was speaking of super conductors. I did not bring up absolute zero because it was not relevant. The point with the super conductors was to talk about a theoretical zero resistant cable. This removes cable distance from the equation, as resistance increases with distance, and slowly reduces the amplitude of a signal. However, since we're on the topic of az, if we were to reach absolute zero (though it is impossible), it affects the molecular level, not the atomic level, or else electricity would cease at or near absolute zero. But the opposite is true, the closer we get to absolute zero, the better a material is as a conductor.
But, back on topic, while it is impossible to make a completely noise free cable, it is highly possible to create a cable that is 100% accurate at transferring its data. Digital transference, while still using electricity, uses a threshold. If you make the cable super conductive, you then only have to worry about crosstalk, however, there are methods to deal with that. And then you have outside induced interference, however this can be dealt with by differential signaling methods. So, with these things added together, you can make a very accurate transfer cable.
Though, this is not practical, so we have our regular hdmi and other digital cables. Here, we make cables that work under a minimum of standards for practicality sake. Now, because we have no super conductive wires, we must take distance into consideration, because of this, digital signals CAN and WILL succumb to interference as their signal voltage level drops. Digital signals are not immune to interference as i have stated before. However, there is some merit in buying the better (read "better" not more expensive) cables, as they often have better shielding. However, the cheaper cables will more than likely work for most people.
My point is that you shouldn't sway too much one way or the other. Don't tell people to avoid cheap cables like the plague, and always go for the expensive cables and that those 1's and 0's are immune to be altered (the annoying, either it gets there or it doesn't argument). However, don't go around telling people that those expensive cables are useless and always go the cheap route. I say it depends on your needs, look at your cable run length, look at how many and what sources of possible interference you may have...etc, then make your choice.

I am a Magnolia Pro, and I am not going to be shy about this: in most respects, I am damned clever. Calling me and all of the other sharp BB employees "fools" is stupid.
While i agree stereotyping all employees of bb as "fools" is not right, logically or otherwise. However, the great majority of them, seem to be misinformed and illogical (from personal experience). Sure, there are some bright ones here and there, but imo, if they don't know their stuff, why the hell do you have them out there? Maybe its just hard to find good people, but why would you place someone who obviously does not know what they're talking about in that section at bb? I feel its as much a bb management problem as much as it is an employee one. However, while you may take offense to what is said about bb and its employees, you cannot fault someone for sharing the experience. And it just so happens that the majority of the bb employees that we, here, happen to run into are inexperienced and ill/uninformed.

To go a bit more indepth, I brought up liquid nitrogen because i was speaking of super conductors. I did not bring up absolute zero because it was not relevant. The point with the super conductors was to talk about a theoretical zero resistant cable. This removes cable distance from the equation, as resistance increases with distance, and slowly reduces the amplitude of a signal. However, since we're on the topic of az, if we were to reach absolute zero (though it is impossible), it affects the molecular level, not the atomic level, or else electricity would cease at or near absolute zero. But the opposite is true, the closer we get to absolute zero, the better a material is as a conductor.
But, back on topic, while it is impossible to make a completely noise free cable, it is highly possible to create a cable that is 100% accurate at transferring its data. Digital transference, while still using electricity, uses a threshold. If you make the cable super conductive, you then only have to worry about crosstalk, however, there are methods to deal with that. And then you have outside induced interference, however this can be dealt with by differential signaling methods. So, with these things added together, you can make a very accurate transfer cable.
Though, this is not practical, so we have our regular hdmi and other digital cables. Here, we make cables that work under a minimum of standards for practicality sake. Now, because we have no super conductive wires, we must take distance into consideration, because of this, digital signals CAN and WILL succumb to interference as their signal voltage level drops. Digital signals are not immune to interference as i have stated before. However, there is some merit in buying the better (read "better" not more expensive) cables, as they often have better shielding. However, the cheaper cables will more than likely work for most people.
My point is that you shouldn't sway too much one way or the other. Don't tell people to avoid cheap cables like the plague, and always go for the expensive cables and that those 1's and 0's are immune to be altered (the annoying, either it gets there or it doesn't argument). However, don't go around telling people that those expensive cables are useless and always go the cheap route. I say it depends on your needs, look at your cable run length, look at how many and what sources of possible interference you may have...etc, then make your choice.

Are you kidding me. Crosstalk, interference are all structured info, they can be eliminated completely through training[remember them bulky noise cancelling headphones], noise you cannot do away with, there is no way a digicable can transmit 100% correct bits over any length of wire without sufficient coding. A perfectly transferable cable cannot be guaranteed as the display source/receiver do not incorporate error correction capabilities.

Are you kidding me. Crosstalk, interference are all structured info, they can be eliminated completely through training[remember them bulky noise cancelling headphones], noise you cannot do away with, there is no way a digicable can transmit 100% correct bits over any length of wire without sufficient coding. A perfectly transferable cable cannot be guaranteed as the display source/receiver do not incorporate error correction capabilities.
You need to do some learning in electrical engineering. Especially lookup differential signaling. My point if that if you use an electrical encoding scheme (like Manchester encoding), combined with sufficient shielding applied in the right way, combined with a differential signaling method, and without distance as part of the equation, you can make a really accurate cable, short of some catastrophic failure of some sort. Heck, you could even do high voltage differential signaling, on a super conductive cable, over a shirt distance, with good shielding... it would be near impossible to induce any type of sufficient noise into the signal, unless you really tried. The point is that you don't need to get rid of all the noise, what you can do is raise the noise immunity a cable system has.

"A perfectly transferable cable cannot be guaranteed as the display source/receiver do not incorporate error correction capabilities."
That is not entirely true either. You could easily have a something like a buffer for the signal feed. This would allow plenty of time to allow some ecc to be practical. Streaming video does this.

You need to do some learning in electrical engineering. Especially lookup differential signaling. My point if that if you use an electrical encoding scheme (like Manchester encoding), combined with sufficient shielding applied in the right way, combined with a differential signaling method, and without distance as part of the equation, you can make a really accurate cable, short of some catastrophic failure of some sort. Heck, you could even do high voltage differential signaling, on a super conductive cable, over a shirt distance, with good shielding... it would be near impossible to induce any type of sufficient noise into the signal, unless you really tried. The point is that you don't need to get rid of all the noise, what you can do is raise the noise immunity a cable system has.

"A perfectly transferable cable cannot be guaranteed as the display source/receiver do not incorporate error correction capabilities."
That is not entirely true either. You could easily have a something like a buffer for the signal feed. This would allow plenty of time to allow some ecc to be practical. Streaming video does this.

Diff encodes only makes signaling polarity insensitive.

Any line signaling scheme cannot guaranatee error free performance.
Try achieve bit perfect transmission[BER = 0] over any cable then[assuming ideal shielding from external noise].

We were talking about hdmi, which does not incorporate ecc.

Well, I would consider a BB calibration if I knew FOR SURE they could correct the color decoder on my Panny 42PX80U. I've adjusted the settings the best I can from my DVE and it looks great, but I can tell that the decoder is off. The reason I'm skeptical that they'd be able to correct the issue is because the service menu doesn't seem to have an option to adjust the reds or greens.

No decoder adjustments on this set. The 800/850U is a much more accurate performer...

Diff encodes only makes signaling polarity insensitive.

Any line signaling scheme cannot guaranatee error free performance.
Try achieve bit perfect transmission[BER = 0] over any cable then[assuming ideal shielding from external noise].

We were talking about hdmi, which does not incorporate ecc.
Are we speaking of differential encoding or differential signaling? They're not the same as far as my understanding goes. I was speaking of differential signaling. With differential signaling you're taking a signal, and transmitting it through two wires (generally twisted together), one wire is carrying the signal with one phase, and the other wire is transmitting the signal with the opposite phase. When the signal gets to the device, the difference is taken to find the actual signal. What this allows is a large rise in noise immunity, as any noise that enters one wire also enters the other (for the most part), and when the difference is taken, the noise is pretty much subtracted and removed.
Although, i admit i might have exaggerated when i stated it as a "perfect" cable, as perfect is hard to prove. However, i would like to restate that as "almost perfect" under the above stated conditions.

"over any cable then"
But i never stated it would be possible with "any" cable, only the theoretical one i stated in my above post.

Are we speaking of differential encoding or differential signaling? They're not the same as far as my understanding goes. I was speaking of differential signaling. With differential signaling you're taking a signal, and transmitting it through two wires (generally twisted together), one wire is carrying the signal with one phase, and the other wire is transmitting the signal with the opposite phase. When the signal gets to the device, the difference is taken to find the actual signal. What this allows is a large rise in noise immunity, as any noise that enters one wire also enters the other (for the most part), and when the difference is taken, the noise is pretty much subtracted and removed.
Although, i admit i might have exaggerated when i stated it as a "perfect" cable, as perfect is hard to prove. However, i would like to restate that as "almost perfect" under the above stated conditions.

"over any cable then"
But i never stated it would be possible with "any" cable, only the theoretical one i stated in my above post.

You don't need differential signaling for this, you just need a balanced line. A balanced line need not be differential, but can be.

You don't need differential signaling for this, you just need a balanced line. A balanced line need not be differential, but can be.
After some research you're right. I guess i've just always seen diff systems paired with balanced lines.

So this may be off topic (it's about calibration in this anti-BB HDMI cabling thread ;) )

From what I've been able to ascertain, a calibrated tv actually uses more power than an uncalibrated tv.

So this may be off topic (it's about calibration in this anti-BB HDMI cabling thread ;) )

From what I've been able to ascertain, a calibrated tv actually uses more power than an uncalibrated tv.
Its inaccurate to use a blacket statement that a display will use less/more energy after calibration.
On many lamp based displays, you can get a great calibration, but never touch any type of lamp power settings. So, in this case, your power will be the same before and after. In other cases with plasma, it may be more or less, but there is no guarantee it which it will be, and from some of the plasma's i've seen, power savings will only be realized if you touch the "power savings" options, which puts it in the same place as lamp based displays. Lcd displays, purely the panel based ones, will only get a power difference if you boost or lower the backlight... and again, there is no guarantee this setting will be altered at all during a calibration.
The whole "power savings" thing is just a selling point, and is only a possibility, not a guarantee.

I would say based on the large majority of owner's that currently watch their display in "torch" mode, power savings will be achieved through calibration. Especially with regards to plasma display panels and to a slightly lesser extent, LCD's.
Not to mention, extended operating life.

I would say based on the large majority of owner's that currently watch their display in "torch" mode, power savings will be achieved through calibration. Especially with regards to plasma display panels and to a slightly lesser extent, LCD's.
Not to mention, extended operating life.

I am kinda new here....what is torch mode?

Probably not good to have/be in , but what is it?

Greetings

It is the mode the TV comes out of the box in. As shipped from the factory.

Vivid
Dynamic
Sports

The brightest possible image ...

regards

I went ahead and let BB calibrate my 42PZ700U. I must say I was impressed. Was at the job for 3-4 hours, and was using the service menu to do the job. He knew what he was doing, and even offered to calibrate my smaller LCD (26g40) for only an additional $50. I'm sure that not all BB techs are near this good, and some might be downright horrible, but I was impressed. In Indianapolis, it was worth it to me to have BB do the job. Now if they could only figure out how to stop BS-ing people on cables and their protection plans.

Many TVs are now offering the necessary controls for calibration in the user menus. However, many also still limit such adjustments to a service-level menu. Reliability of information heard at Best Buy is probably slightly less than what can be encountered on public forums or in the media. Cross check everything to see if it's opinion, misinterpretation of the facts, or solidly founded upon imaging science and display industry standards and recommended practices.

Best Buy fills a legitimate need in the marketplace. The electronics consuming masses consider price first and foremost, then convenience a close second. They will suffer the abuse of third-rate advice and third-rate performance for the sake of saving a few bucks and/or getting it at the local big box store (ie. Visio). The pursuit of excellence is not valued by the general populace.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." H. L. Mencken

Excellence and expertise at Best Buy is the exception rather than the rule, a notch better than WalMart or Costco. Some employees do try harder, particularly in the Magnolia departments. They still don't pay very well because of the harsh realities of internet pricing and their brick and mortar overhead.
Which TV' s(plasma) offer the necessary controls for calibration in the user menu? Thanks.

Greetings

Plasma with grascale in user controls ...

Higher end panasonics only
Any Samsung Plasma
Any LG plasma
Pioneer Elite plasma

regards

Greetings

Plasma with grascale in user controls ...

Higher end panasonics only
Any Samsung Plasma
Any LG plasma
Pioneer Elite plasma

regards

I would add to that NEC plasmas (old now)

Of course the freakin' CE manufactures could easily avoid the whole problem by putting in a menu item called "Standard" and actually have it calibrated to the proper d65 greyscale, gamut, color matrix, et al. But nooooo! ;)

You can't do it at the factory, because a proper calibration has to be done in the room under the same general conditions under which you watch that tv.

This is not correct. Anyone who knows what they are doing can calibrate a display. I have my Samsung LN-T4661F completely D65 calibrated in the service menu so that I don't have to touch anything but the backlight in the user menu. Granted, that model of TV doesn't have anything beyond greyscale controls, so you can't set the gamut on the TV, but to say that your average Joe can't "completely" calibrate a TV is patently false.

So, if you're leaving settings untouched that may or may not be at D65 ref levels, then how are you 100% calibrating it?

;15951569']So, if you're leaving settings untouched that may or may not be at D65 ref levels, then how are you 100% calibrating it?
When i first started, he offered help with me setting up my colorimeter. So, based on that i'm assuming he also uses a spectrophotometer or colorimeter of sorts.

I went ahead and let BB calibrate my 42PZ700U. I must say I was impressed. Was at the job for 3-4 hours, and was using the service menu to do the job. He knew what he was doing, and even offered to calibrate my smaller LCD (26g40) for only an additional $50. I'm sure that not all BB techs are near this good, and some might be downright horrible, but I was impressed. In Indianapolis, it was worth it to me to have BB do the job. Now if they could only figure out how to stop BS-ing people on cables and their protection plans.

Good to hear. I got a deal on a Best Buy Calibration but am somewhat worried how good of a job it will be. This somewhat eases my fears.

It completely depends on who you get. Some of their calibrators are likely very good, within the limitations of the system and their equipment, which is adequate for a Panasonic to do basic gray scale.

Think of Best Buy like fast food. Don't expect too much and you will not be surprised.

It completely depends on who you get. Some of their calibrators are likely very good, within the limitations of the system and their equipment, which is adequate for a Panasonic to do basic gray scale.

Think of Best Buy like fast food. Don't expect too much and you will not be surprised.

Well I only paid $150 for the calibration (normally $300 US). What do you imagine my chances are that I'm just flushing the $150 down the toilet? Would I be better off spending the money elsewhere? (It's only paid for and not even scheduled so I can still cancel.) Any tips on finding a reputable calibrator?

Go to the ISF and ISF forum web sites, call the people listed in your area and have them tell you why they are the best choice.

Best Buy does service menu adjusts (assuming white balance controls aren't in the menu). I've seen 3 calibrators first hand from Best Buy. Experience wins out in this case. If you can find a good ISF from Best Buy, which is likely, go for the one with the most experience. The training is very well thought-out, but there is no replacement for hands-on, I.E. experience. I'm personally using my store as guinea pig and I'm calibrating the new LED Samsungs and the new LG's with ISFccc controls, to get the experience to do the job right. Calibrators have access to Best Buy websites that have info from other BB calibrators on how to access service menus and what does what. The tools are there, it just depends on the calibrator on how they use them.

Yes I am a Geek Squad calibrator as of a month ago but I won't go into a customers home until I'm 100% confident to do the job right. I'm currently also doing ride alongs with other BB calibrators to get as much info and experience as I can. This was my choice so maybe some people care more than others.

And calibration rarely has huge benefits in power consumption. Let's assume that it does. Contrast adjust (Plasmas) and Backlight adjustment (LCD) have the biggest impact on power consumption. So from a Vivid, Hi-bright, etc.. standpoint, yes more than likely you'll save a little money, assuming it isn't going in an extremely bright room in the home. Your talking $5 to $15 a year though. That's not going to fast food for one day. Not the monumental savings that some people believe. Maybe I'm crazy, but isn't the whole point of calibration is to have an accurate picture?

BB calibrators do not do CMS alignments on the sets that have it. Their equipment is limited and is useful primarily for gray scale, not measuring primaries and secondaries on all technologies.

As for power consumption, significant savings can be realized over OOB settings after calibration, but calibration is not needed to get these savings. Simply turn down contrast on PDPs and CRT units, and turn down backlight levels on LCDs.

BB calibrators do not do CMS alignments on the sets that have it. Their equipment is limited and is useful primarily for gray scale, not measuring primaries and secondaries on all technologies.

Maybe this is going beyond what I may be realizing, but primary colors maintaining accuracy and grayscale accuracy are two very similar, if not the same thing correct? Now in terms of adjusting secondary colors, what do you mean by adjustments? What would have to be done by BB that would constitute to you as secondary color adjustment/accuracy? Not trying to be a a-hole, just really wanna know what you expect them to do?

I would venture that most BB calibrators have "never" seen a properly calibrated system that could be considered a reference display. Many of the professional independent calibrators have the experience and the ability to work through difficulties that arise. The lesser experienced calibrators will depend on their equipment measurements and rarely can visually tell if there is a problem, let alone, knowing how to resolve it.

The BB calibration equipment can have difficulties measuring some of the current displays and no telling what the future brings with LED and Laser technology.

The professional calibrator generally won't do your calibration for $150, however he didnt get the balance of the calibration fee in the sale of equipment. When I sell a display locally, I include the calibration.

If BB is willing to give a $150 discount on the calibration, have them give the discount on the display (lower sales tax) and decide on the calibration later. Don't get pressured into a calibration without doing your homework.

Maybe this is going beyond what I may be realizing, but primary colors maintaining accuracy and grayscale accuracy are two very similar, if not the same thing correct? Now in terms of adjusting secondary colors, what do you mean by adjustments? What would have to be done by BB that would constitute to you as secondary color adjustment/accuracy? Not trying to be a a-hole, just really wanna know what you expect them to do?

With a color management system you can manipulate the primaries and secondaries, up to the degree that the primaries can saturate. This is different than gray scale. Some sets will not allow you to do much more than gray scale, and their equipment and procedures can possibly be OK for that. They could also botch it badly, depending on the display and the system.

BB is like Jiffy Lube or McDonalds. For a quick oil change they may be fine. Then again, you many end up with an over or underfilled crankcase, a leak from careless installation of a filter or drain plug or washer, and you get the cheapest oil and filter than they can find. Some McDs have great service, others stink. Some of their menu items are OK, but you don't go in expecting a great meal or something that is not on the menu.

I hear what your saying, but if Best Buy as a whole to get the same results using the Sencore equipment and with a Colorpro V, why would automatically jump all over it and say its trash. I understand what most people's problem with it is though. Mass producing anything, whether it's calibration or a hamburger, generally will yield more profits but quality control will go down. I intend to give customers printouts of CIE chart plotting before and after and more info so they can understand I didn't just change the color and brightness and now to have a Pioneer Elite.

If the CMS controls for secondary colors (I actually saw these settings on some of the new LG's and the new LED Samsungs) but if it isn't in universally on alot of displays then I think it's a hard gripe to make against it. I'm not trying to sip up the Kool-aid and spread the word we are better, but I wouldn't knock something that most of guys are unfamiliar with (Geek Squad Calibrations) until you at least got more info on what we actually do.

As with anything in the life, you get what you pay for...

If an individual wants the most from their ENTIRE video system, they will hire an experienced, competent video calibration professional.
If they are uninformed, want the cheapest deal they can get or just don't really care about image fidelity, they will settle for less.

I hear what your saying, but if Best Buy as a whole to get the same results using the Sencore equipment and with a Colorpro V, why would automatically jump all over it and say its trash. I understand what most people's problem with it is though. Mass producing anything, whether it's calibration or a hamburger, generally will yield more profits but quality control will go down. I intend to give customers printouts of CIE chart plotting before and after and more info so they can understand I didn't just change the color and brightness and now to have a Pioneer Elite.

If the CMS controls for secondary colors (I actually saw these settings on some of the new LG's and the new LED Samsungs) but if it isn't in universally on alot of displays then I think it's a hard gripe to make against it. I'm not trying to sip up the Kool-aid and spread the word we are better, but I wouldn't knock something that most of guys are unfamiliar with (Geek Squad Calibrations) until you at least got more info on what we actually do.


Unfamiliar with? Look at the number of calibrations that there have been complaints about just here on AVS. BB accounts for the vast majority of them in the short time that they have been offering the service. Hardly a pro anywhere has not gone behind BB to fix a mess. Why would one expect them to be any ore competent at something as complex as calibration, that is very different from system to system and model to model, when they cannot even get basic installations right. I think the Jiffy Lube/McDonalds comparison is perfect.

With respet to the Sencore products, virtually no pros who do their homework are buying it anymore and most are replacing it with higher resolution spectros. You can do some things perfectly well with it, and other adjustments and displays will be done poorly.

I hear what your saying, but if Best Buy as a whole to get the same results using the Sencore equipment and with a Colorpro V, why would automatically jump all over it and say its trash. I understand what most people's problem with it is though. Mass producing anything, whether it's calibration or a hamburger, generally will yield more profits but quality control will go down. I intend to give customers printouts of CIE chart plotting before and after and more info so they can understand I didn't just change the color and brightness and now to have a Pioneer Elite.

If the CMS controls for secondary colors (I actually saw these settings on some of the new LG's and the new LED Samsungs) but if it isn't in universally on alot of displays then I think it's a hard gripe to make against it. I'm not trying to sip up the Kool-aid and spread the word we are better, but I wouldn't knock something that most of guys are unfamiliar with (Geek Squad Calibrations) until you at least got more info on what we actually do.The BB equipment can get most grayscales done, but there are a few displays that cause problems. I had to move away from the "pods" to get more accurate results. As CMS gets more mainstream, the tri-stimulus based analyzers will fall even further behind. They just cannot measure primaries to the degree of accuracy any paying customer should have.

Well they moved to a ColorPro V here very recently so I think as a company, best buy wants to stay ahead of the curve or at least stay with it so they aren't left behind. I'll send some info to my higher ups so we keeping high quality standards. Any particular displays? and y?

To be honest, most of BB's customers aren't buying the top of the line displays, aren't buying any projectors, etc etc. Going to the nines with CMS isn't something I think someone would naturally expect from BB. Even if equipped and trained to deal with CMS, the opportunity to even calibrate a display with CMS is not the most common these days (though admittedly this is changing). The extra time is also significant. CMS is covered very briefly in BB's training, and to be honest I think that's fine. Unleashing briefly-trained techs on CMS systems can waste a lot of time and end up with chaos while calibrating if you don't have a really good grasp of what's going on and what you're doing.

I think it's also fair to point out that we here at AVS have something of a bias because many of the most knowledgeable and experienced calibrators frequent this forum, but keep in mind that the vast majority of ISF techs out there (not including Best Buy) are not up to this caliber, and frankly are at or below what Best Buy is doing. They are unlikely to have service-menu access unless they pursue information significantly on their own, are unlikely to be equipped any better than BBY guys are, and frankly may charge significantly more. A mom-and-pop integrator is probably on par with what BB gives you in terms of a basic ISF calibration.

And to be honest, bringing calibration to the masses is still a good thing. We love to advocate test discs for the novice who is short on cash, that won't match what a basic grayscale adjustment by a BB guy will do, yet we don't trash that.

Further, we all have to realize the back-end benefits of a massive company like BB pushing calibration services. When BB goes to their major manufacturers and tells them that their gamma sucks, or they have no access to greyscale controls, or their service menu is a nightmare, those manufacturers will act fast to listen. That benefits the dedicated calibrators too, who have long fought for decent menus and controls, and I think we'll continue to see greater and greater access to all the controls we need to really whip a TV into shape, and less and less spurious "features" that lead to an inaccurate image.

So in the bigger picture, I think you have to realize that the 900lb gorilla in the TV business is telling not only their customers, but their manufacturers that accuracy matters. That they can sell both more TVs and more calibration services on accurate televisions. That is a big big change, and in a larger sense benefits the pursuit of better images. In other words, no a BB calibration is unlikely to get the absolute best out of a display (on the other hand that's probably true of most ISF jobs with the exception of many of the folks around here who basically only do calibrations and are the pinnacle of it), but it pushes the entire range of images towards better, and IMO in not a small way.

I agree Chris. BB has increased the interest in calibrating displays and that awareness benefits the industry. Jiffy Lube increased awareness of the importance of oil changes, too. For many people that level of service is perfectly acceptable. The fact is, however, that it is easy to find much better service for the same price, from people with more knowledge and better equipment. All it takes is talking to the prospective service provider and it becomes clear that you can get better service for similar or less money in many markets.

Greetings

Somethings are easier for us to say, but ask the masses to look stuff up on a search engine and things get a little or a lot tougher. And then where do you go on that search engine ... who do you believe? ... and how much research time is that going to take a person?

There is a reason that a Jiffy Lube exists. It serves a purpose. I use it because it is fast and my time is worth more to me than the cost of the oil change. The emphasis is always on the cost of my time. Time to research ... time to do it yourself ... time to clean up the mess ... time to dispose of the oil ... and so forth.

regards

Well they moved to a ColorPro V here very recently so I think as a company, best buy wants to stay ahead of the curve or at least stay with it so they aren't left behind. I'll send some info to my higher ups so we keeping high quality standards. Any particular displays? and y?

Moving to a ColorPro V is staying ahead of the curve? :D

At the very least they should have moved to a OTC-1000/Hubble if they wanted to come even close to the current generation of meters that have surpassed the OTC/Hubble. The ColorPro V has the same age technology of a 720p Native HDTV.

I am not a BB fan but here is what the say about their calibration--note the ISF certified claim.

We'll calibrate your HDTV for optimal video performance, using the latest tools and techniques to create the most true-to-life high-definition experience for you. In addition to stunning picture quality, you'll benefit from reduced eye strain, longer TV life and significant energy savings. We'll also check your home theater system for proper operation, and organize and dress the wiring for a clean, professional look.

Product Features
Our highly trained, ISF-Certified Elite Service Specialists will:
Calibrate your TV to ISF standards for top video performance and create dedicated settings for two differet inputs (emphasis added).
Adjust the surround sound levels of the A/V receiver to ensure all the effect speakers are working optimally
Review and check the speaker system; verify that all speakers are properly positioned and working
Review and recommend any remote control features or capabilities that might be helpful to you now or in the future
Ensure that all wires and cables are neatly dressed, using wire ties as needed
Clean up work area and remove installation debris
Approximate time: 2 hrs.NOT TRUE. My guy did not even know pioneer had ISFccc modes to activate. He couldn't even activate it and he used Standard as the benchmark for his calibrations.

Also, ISF does not set standards at all. It is an educational organization, simply promoting good video practices. It offers an introduction to what that means and motivates many people to achieve greater adherance to industry standards.

Best Buy has done the industry a service by promoting calibration services, but its name is simply misleading. There are far better values in services provided by more reputatble professionals performing the service.

Soon, your local High School might be providing your calibrator . . . Read more... (http://www.cepro.com/article/best_buy_employee_high_school_kids_will_replace_skilled_magn olia_staff?utm_source=CEPWeekly&utm_medium=email)

I stand by my fast food and Jiffy Lube comparisons...

I need some advice, I had a best buy tech calibrate my panasonic 58-800u, when he did it he calibrated normal-thx instead of warm-thx,well i asked him to come back and calibrate warm-thx and it looks great for movies, but he could not get normal back to factory settings and that is what my wife really likes watching during daytime. I want to know how to get the tv back to previous settings, and what should i ask best buy to do? Thanks for any help

Greetings

Normal ... Cool ... Warm. They are all merely placeholders for values.

Make the Normal mode more blue by adding more BDRV and B cut. It's that simple. Keep adding blue until you like it. Cool is always more blue than normal.

regards

It is hard for me to accept any calibration services from Best Buy when their employees freely admit that NONE of their display TVs are calibrated, even the "Magnolia" area units.

Has anyone conducted an independent review of a Best Buy calibration? It would be interesting to see how well or poor they did.

Dan

It is hard for me to accept any calibration services from Best Buy when their employees freely admit that NONE of their display TVs are calibrated, even the "Magnolia" area units.

Has anyone conducted an independent review of a Best Buy calibration? It would be interesting to see how well or poor they did.

DanThis could be said for all calibrators. The only option one really has it to become familiar with calibration services, then interview your calibrator.

It is hard for me to accept any calibration services from Best Buy when their employees freely admit that NONE of their display TVs are calibrated, even the "Magnolia" area units.

Has anyone conducted an independent review of a Best Buy calibration? It would be interesting to see how well or poor they did.

Dan
I've seen a few TVs calibrated at Best Buy. They have a display demo where they place two identical Samsung LCD TVs side-by-side. One is calibrated and one is out of the box. The calibrated one looks much better to my eyes. However, I recently saw this demo at another Best Buy and the calibrator did a lousy job.

I've seen a few TVs calibrated at Best Buy. They have a display demo where they place two identical Samsung LCD TVs side-by-side. One is calibrated and one is out of the box. The calibrated one looks much better to my eyes. However, I recently saw this demo at another Best Buy and the calibrator did a lousy job.The one that is not calibrated is in Dynamic mode. That's why it looks extreme compared to the one that theoretically calibrated. I'm betting it's not calibrated in simply in Pure mode.

I cannot express how unprofessional and horrible is the Best Buy calibration service.

I need some advice, I had a best buy tech calibrate my panasonic 58-800u, when he did it he calibrated normal-thx instead of warm-thx,well i asked him to come back and calibrate warm-thx and it looks great for movies, but he could not get normal back to factory settings and that is what my wife really likes watching during daytime. I want to know how to get the tv back to previous settings, and what should i ask best buy to do? Thanks for any help

Greetings

Normal ... Cool ... Warm. They are all merely placeholders for values.

Make the Normal mode more blue by adding more BDRV and B cut. It's that simple. Keep adding blue until you like it. Cool is always more blue than normal.

regards

so is what you are saying i cant have the factory defaults back in normal that best buy changed?

Greetings

Mainly because all the sets are different from the factory anyway. There is no factory default as you believe. Some TVs come with normal set at 10 ... some at 9 .. some at 11 some at 12 ... and the cool setting is out at 20 +/- 3 ... (relative numbers ... but I hope you get the idea.)

You can get it back in the ball park where it started out ... but you don't need them to do that ... you can do it yourself. Like bickering that you don't want this wrong answer ... but want another wrong answer ... (never really wanting the right answer)

regards

Believe me I am not trying to bicker and I am wanting the right answer,But after buying a 3000 dollar tv and another 299 to get if calibrated i am just a little frustrated(wife not happy) about this.And after spending this much I guess I am wanting more than getting it in the ballpark. I would have no idea where to start.
Thank you for your help

Greetings

If you want ... merely copy the numbers from normal temp over to warm. That makes them the same.

Now take Normal ... and boost the BDRV to make it more blue. You might want to see where the cool BDRV is set first and simply arrive at some middle ground between where the correct setting is and where the extreme blue of cool is. That would be a good place to leave it. Normal was always someplace between warm and cool anyway.

The doing part is easy ... the moving around the service menu part is the time consuming thing. So learn to get in there and get yourself back that bluer normal mode.

Too bad no education was involved in the calibration process. When that component is present ... people simply no longer choose blue. :(

regards

so is what you are saying i cant have the factory defaults back in normal that best buy changed?

I want to know how to get the tv back to previous settings

As per your post 2 months ago:



deMaster

All of my defaults are the same as yours except for B-DRV=86, what would you suggestion be for the offset?

You simply use the the settings in his signature except for B-DRV=86 and you are back to where you started according to your previous post.


Believe me I am not trying to bicker and I am wanting the right answer,But after buying a 3000 dollar tv and another 299 to get if calibrated i am just a little frustrated(wife not happy) about this.And after spending this much I guess I am wanting more than getting it in the ballpark. I would have no idea where to start.


Then you get Gregg who posts in the other thread you asked the questions in (and deMaster who you appear to respect already gave you a reference on him) - or his partner Michael which gave you advice in this thread - and have them calibrate your TV if you want it spot on - that is the place to start.

Unfamiliar with? Look at the number of calibrations that there have been complaints about just here on AVS. BB accounts for the vast majority of them in the short time that they have been offering the service. Hardly a pro anywhere has not gone behind BB to fix a mess. Why would one expect them to be any ore competent at something as complex as calibration, that is very different from system to system and model to model, when they cannot even get basic installations right. I think the Jiffy Lube/McDonalds comparison is perfect.

With respet to the Sencore products, virtually no pros who do their homework are buying it anymore and most are replacing it with higher resolution spectros. You can do some things perfectly well with it, and other adjustments and displays will be done poorly.

Your logic fails. Of course there will be more complaints with BB calibrations as they perform umpteen hundreds more than professionals from Mom and Pop shops.

Let's throw out the fact that we are talking about calibrations and just talk about a product or service in general. The more you sell, the more complaints you will have. That's just plain common sense. If I sell 100 of one product and get complaints on 10 of them, that's 10%. If Mom and Pop sell 10 of that product and get complaints on 2, that's 20%. Obviously 10 complaints sounds like an awfully lot more than 2 complaints but you need to look at how many units are moving. That's business 101 guy, it's not about quantity, it's about percentages.

It's not fair to say that everyone hates BB calibrations and they are terrible because for all we know, for every one complaint, there could be 50 or 60 satisfied customers.

I will end with the comment everyone makes about BB calibrations: It is without a doubt, 100%, all about who you get to perform the service for you.

Your logic fails. Of course there will be more complaints with BB calibrations as they perform umpteen hundreds more than professionals from Mom and Pop shops.

Let's throw out the fact that we are talking about calibrations and just talk about a product or service in general. The more you sell, the more complaints you will have. That's just plain common sense.I'm not a person who considers everyone should pay for a calibration unless they have money to spare as I think it's a very low bang for the buck, but from personal experience...

if my BB calibrator did not know anything about my Pioneer Elite ISF modes
if he did not have ControlCal to activate my ISF modes
finally, if he used Standard mode as the basis for his calibration

then you're talking about a systematic issue at large (including volume) for Pioneer owners; BB does not have the tools to get the job done and there are very low standards for quality and experience. I see there is no "If-And-Or-But" about not having the tools to calibrate a display. It does not matter if BB calibrated 1 to 1MM displays; it just means they did not calibrate 1MM displays correctly in this example.

Never mind the fact that he never returns my calls and email as I'll consider that an individual issue. Never mind the fact that I was charged in Nov 2008 and still have not been refunded yet. Never mind the fact that the calibrator only went into the Service Menu for 2 minutes to theoretically "restore" my settings.

Your logic fails. Of course there will be more complaints with BB calibrations as they perform umpteen hundreds more than professionals from Mom and Pop shops.

Let's throw out the fact that we are talking about calibrations and just talk about a product or service in general. The more you sell, the more complaints you will have. That's just plain common sense. If I sell 100 of one product and get complaints on 10 of them, that's 10%. If Mom and Pop sell 10 of that product and get complaints on 2, that's 20%. Obviously 10 complaints sounds like an awfully lot more than 2 complaints but you need to look at how many units are moving. That's business 101 guy, it's not about quantity, it's about percentages.

It's not fair to say that everyone hates BB calibrations and they are terrible because for all we know, for every one complaint, there could be 50 or 60 satisfied customers.

I will end with the comment everyone makes about BB calibrations: It is without a doubt, 100%, all about who you get to perform the service for you.


A Dentist can remove a tooth properly - or someone can do it with a vice grip. Both remove the tooth. One does it somewhat better than the other.

Doesn't mean it can't be done - just makes the job more challenging without the proper tools and most times the results are not anywhere as satisfactory.

If you are willing to have your tooth taken out with vicegrips, perhaps you would be happy with the same crude tools that BB uses.

Best Buy Calibration = $300/hr, $200/hr more than your auto dealerships or mechanics:rolleyes:.

Your logic fails. Of course there will be more complaints with BB calibrations as they perform umpteen hundreds more than professionals from Mom and Pop shops.

Let's throw out the fact that we are talking about calibrations and just talk about a product or service in general. The more you sell, the more complaints you will have. That's just plain common sense. If I sell 100 of one product and get complaints on 10 of them, that's 10%. If Mom and Pop sell 10 of that product and get complaints on 2, that's 20%. Obviously 10 complaints sounds like an awfully lot more than 2 complaints but you need to look at how many units are moving. That's business 101 guy, it's not about quantity, it's about percentages.

It's not fair to say that everyone hates BB calibrations and they are terrible because for all we know, for every one complaint, there could be 50 or 60 satisfied customers.

I will end with the comment everyone makes about BB calibrations: It is without a doubt, 100%, all about who you get to perform the service for you.You fail to see the fact that BB preys on the unknowing. I would guess that 90% or more of the BB calibration customers know nothing of AVS, furthermore most have no idea what a proper picture should look like or what a calibration should provide. A satisfied customer can also be a "cheated" customer if they don't know what they are getting.

A calibrator doing a 1000 improper calibrations only gets proficient in doing poor calibrations. A professional should improve with each calibration he does. An independent calibrator has his own reputation and livelihood to protect. If you want references and further business, you better do a good job. Even if your customer cannot tell a good calibration from a bad calibration, someone who later sees that display might be able to.

There are multiple reasons calibrators are switching from Sencore equipment. Cost is one factor, however those calibrators wanting accurate measurements on all types of displays are switching for different technologies in test equipment to more accurately measure the newer display technologies.

An independent calibrator is selling you himself and his services, a BB salesman is selling for a commission, no intention of "customer satisfaction" or ever hearing from or seeing that customer again. The are more like a used car salesman......

You are so wrong in thinking that the more calibrations one does, the more complaints they should/would naturally have. I have zero complaint record over all my calibration years, I expect to make 100% of my customers happy with their calibration results and my services. Complaints equal poor work/service. The cause may be any combination of the company's goals, guidelines and instructions, the employee's experience, capabilities and attitude, lack of or inadequate training, and quality and condition of the equipment.

Your logic fails. Of course there will be more complaints with BB calibrations as they perform umpteen hundreds more than professionals from Mom and Pop shops.

Let's throw out the fact that we are talking about calibrations and just talk about a product or service in general. The more you sell, the more complaints you will have. That's just plain common sense. If I sell 100 of one product and get complaints on 10 of them, that's 10%. If Mom and Pop sell 10 of that product and get complaints on 2, that's 20%. Obviously 10 complaints sounds like an awfully lot more than 2 complaints but you need to look at how many units are moving. That's business 101 guy, it's not about quantity, it's about percentages.

It's not fair to say that everyone hates BB calibrations and they are terrible because for all we know, for every one complaint, there could be 50 or 60 satisfied customers.

I will end with the comment everyone makes about BB calibrations: It is without a doubt, 100%, all about who you get to perform the service for you.

It is not a matter of logic. It is a matter of behavior and priorities in doing business. You assume that the professionals that are an alternative to BB are treating service like BB does, which is just another commodity. The fact is that if you search out the best calibrators and interview them the way most of us have suggested, you will find, as Glen pointed out, that the real pros treat each client very individually and value their satisfaction. They do so to the point that they usually will not take a job calibrating a set for someone who is not a good candidate for it. BB on the other hand is selling a service to anyone whom they can close a deal with. The service is a commodity and as you point out, a certain percentage of unhappy customers is to be expected. This is a completely different perspective and method of providing service.

That's business 101 guy, it's not about quantity, it's about percentages.

spoken like someone who is definitely not self-employed... :rolleyes:

the couple previous posters did a good job of outlining the 2 different business models that are employed...

different models for different businesses serving different customer bases... y'know... business 101...

........That's business 101 guy, it's not about quantity, it's about percentages.For the independent professional calibrator, it's all about the image and the customer. Quantity and percentages don't apply. Think of it more like "self-employment 101" Referrals (next weeks food on the table) come from "happy customers"

Those who equate what we do to the marketing of services by BB would also have a hard time understanding why most of us are HAPPY to have them in the business. They have raised awareness greatly. The same goes for the most successful specialty retailers. They love the big box stores because the generate lots of interest and expand the market. That makes for more customers with custom needs that can't be met by operations like BB.

Well this is obviously a lost cause since everyone in this thread loves to hate on anything big box... but I will give it one last go just for fun. I have no intention of winning this argument as it is obviously impossible. But anyway.. here we go...

a BB salesman is selling for a commission, no intention of "customer satisfaction"
Not a single employee of Best Buy has been on commission for well over a decade. We don't make a single dime more if you walk out of the store with a $6 coax cable, or a Pioneer 6020.

I have zero complaint record over all my calibration years, I expect to make 100% of my customers happy with their calibration results and my services.
I obviously work for BB or I wouldn't be here defending them so heavily. Yes, I am a Home Theater Supervisor. The ISF calibrator that works out of our store I have worked with for 2 years. He has done roughly 1,800 calibrations in his career and has had one returned out of them. I'm curious as to how many you have done. I don't care whether you have done more or less, I'm just wondering.

You fail to see the fact that BB preys on the unknowing. I would guess that 90% or more of the BB calibration customers know nothing of AVS, furthermore most have no idea what a proper picture should look like or what a calibration should provide. A satisfied customer can also be a "cheated" customer if they don't know what they are getting.
Customers aren't stupid. They can see through BS. We aren't trained to take advantage of people. Are you kidding me? If only I could show you BB's retail operating model. It's the EXACT opposite of what you think it is.

There are multiple reasons calibrators are switching from Sencore equipment. Cost is one factor, however those calibrators wanting accurate measurements on all types of displays are switching for different technologies in test equipment to more accurately measure the newer display technologies.
BB is moving away from Sencore for the same reasons you just mentioned. We are in a test market for the new equipment. I don't remember the exact name of it but I will be sure to get back to you and let you know what it is.

Those who equate what we do to the marketing of services by BB would also have a hard time understanding why most of us are HAPPY to have them in the business. They have raised awareness greatly.
You're welcome. I was around when BB first launched the calibration service, again, I was one of the test markets. The reason we began to offer the service is because customers wanted us to.

To everyone: Please stop assuming that 100% of BB employees are incompetent morons. I would agree with you that a large majority are, but it's not all of them. There are some of us out there that actually care about our jobs and legitimately want to help people get the right solution and have a great setup that works for them.

Customers aren't stupid. They can see through BS. We aren't trained to take advantage of people. Are you kidding me? If only I could show you BB's retail operating model. It's the EXACT opposite of what you think it is.$300/hr Nothing personal, but as an "actual human being" who had a calibrator who did not know how to calibrate my set, was not able to calibrate my set and did not have the software to calibrate my set and he never ever ever ever responded to my messages, I'd say it is a systematic problem at BB.

These customers, including myself, are pretty clueless if you ask me.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8586559&type=product&id=1190677437119#tabbed-customerreviews

Everyone, please rate how unhelpful their reviews are.

To be honest, I knew the BB calibrator was not going to be able to get the job done before he started. But since there is a refund policy, I gave it a shot.

To everyone: Please stop assuming that 100% of BB employees are incompetent morons. I would agree with you that a large majority are, but it's not all of them. There are some of us out there that actually care about our jobs and legitimately want to help people get the right solution and have a great setup that works for them.I'm sure there are a few good guys, but a large majority are clueless kids - referencing to the calibrators. $300/hr for a poor job, any customer who falls for this, including me, is clueless. $300/hr

$300/hr Nothing personal, but as an "actual human being" who had a calibrator who did not know how to calibrate my set, was not able to calibrate my set and did not have the software to calibrate my set and he never ever ever ever responded to my messages, I'd say it is a systematic problem at BB.

These customers, including myself, are pretty clueless if you ask me.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8586559&type=product&id=1190677437119#tabbed-customerreviews

Everyone, please rate how unhelpful their reviews are.

To be honest, I knew the BB calibrator was not going to be able to get the job done before he started. But since there is a refund policy, I gave it a shot.

I'm sure there are a few good guys, but a large majority are clueless kids - referencing to the calibrators. $300/hr for a poor job, any customer who falls for this, including me, is clueless. $300/hr

It's $300 flat rate regardless of time... not $300 an hour. Stop it. You more than likely got at least $100 off the service as well since there is usually always a promotion on it. The only way you paid that price for it is if you A) didn't get a TV from BB, or B) you purchased a TV less than $999.

And just because you had one bad experience does not make it a systematic problem. You probably got a some new guy who was just working for a pay check and didn't really care. I said it before and I'll say it again.. it's 100% about who you get.

It's $300 flat rate regardless of time... not $300 an hour. Stop it. You more than likely got at least $100 off the service as well since there is usually always a promotion on it. The only way you paid that price for it is if you A) didn't get a TV from BB, or B) you purchased a TV less than $999.

And just because you had one bad experience does not make it a systematic problem. You probably got a some new guy who was just working for a pay check and didn't really care. I said it before and I'll say it again.. it's 100% about who you get.I have a $6500 plasma 60". Yes, it's systematic because BB does not have the software to calibrate it.

It's 100% who you get, but 95% of all BB calibrators are clueless so those odds are not favorable.

Well this is obviously a lost cause since everyone in this thread loves to hate on anything big box... but I will give it one last go just for fun. I have no intention of winning this argument as it is obviously impossible. But anyway.. here we go...

You responded to my post later in your comment where I point out that independents generally love the fact hat BB is in the market. You are making the assumtion that everyone hates big box stores while whining that we should not assume 100% of their employees are morons.


To everyone: Please stop assuming that 100% of BB employees are incompetent morons. I would agree with you that a large majority are, but it's not all of them. There are some of us out there that actually care about our jobs and legitimately want to help people get the right solution and have a great setup that works for them.

You are the one making assumptions about what "everyone" here thinks. No one is saying that all of their employees are morons. It is just unlikely that one will get as complete and as personalized service when dealing with a large vendor as compared to dealing with an independent specialist, particularly if you interview the individual and come to an understanding about what is being provided.

Congrats that you are ethical and concerned for the value that you provide your clients. Chances are that if you choose to make a long career in this business, however, you will end up being rather unsatisfied with the limitations that are inherent in the kind of operation that BB sustains. As independents, we can define the level of service that we provide based on what is best for the client. That is often not possible within the business model of a big box operation like BB. The serve a purpose in the market, just like the internet dealers and every other type of provider of products and services. They are not so much of a threat to us independents as many would assume and those of us who are successful usually do not see them as such.

For the independent professional calibrator, it's all about the image and the customer. Quantity and percentages don't apply. Think of it more like "self-employment 101" Referrals (next weeks food on the table) come from "happy customers"

But you suggest, in your blanket statement, that BB calibrators do not care about the quality of their work or their customers...that is a pretty ignorant generalization. Maybe people have good work ethics regardless of who they work for:confused:

$300/hr Nothing personal, but as an "actual human being" who had a calibrator who did not know how to calibrate my set, was not able to calibrate my set and did not have the software to calibrate my set and he never ever ever ever responded to my messages, I'd say it is a systematic problem at BB.

These customers, including myself, are pretty clueless if you ask me.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8586559&type=product&id=1190677437119#tabbed-customerreviews

Everyone, please rate how unhelpful their reviews are.

To be honest, I knew the BB calibrator was not going to be able to get the job done before he started. But since there is a refund policy, I gave it a shot.



I'm sure there are a few good guys, but a large majority are clueless kids - referencing to the calibrators. $300/hr for a poor job, any customer who falls for this, including me, is clueless. $300/hr

and was certainly not mine. After taking the time to explain everything along the way he returned after a move and fw upgrade to recalibrate (and I live in rural Alaska). He pulled up my file compared the changes to setting after upgrade and redid the calibration from scratch and then compared the changes from all stages.

But you suggest, in your blanket statement, that BB calibrators do not care about the quality of their work or their customers...that is a pretty ignorant generalization. Maybe people have good work ethics regardless of who they work for:confused:

Where did he suggest that? I must have missed it.

But you suggest, in your blanket statement, that BB calibrators do not care about the quality of their work or their customers...that is a pretty ignorant generalization. Maybe people have good work ethics regardless of who they work for:confused:I said what? Someone else mentioned quantity and percentages, I merely stated an independent calibrator is interested in the image and the customer. I have many years of experience in corporate management positions, I have seen how employees, work ethics, accountability, responsibility have dwindled over the years. I would never hire a young employee and send them out with my truck or equipment. It is a generalization, however I have seen how "employees" abuse company equipment and get by on as little effort as possible including shortcuts. There may be a few good ones, but in general, it's the one with the most risk who generally tries or does the best work.

It is good that BB is promoting calibrations. There is not nearly enough "press" on the benefit of calibration. I would guess that a majority of BB customers, sold a calibration, never heard of calibration before entering the store. They were given a pressure sales pitch to include it with their TV purchase, similar to an extended warranty. The customer who seeks a independent calibrator has some prior knowledge about calibration and is generally shopping for results. There are also those who want the "professional" for the BB price........

I would guess that a majority of BB customers, sold a calibration, never heard of calibration before entering the store.
This is true. Most customers have no idea what it is before we tell them about it. There are a small amount that have read about it, heard it on the news, or have a friend/relative who had it done, but generally they have no prior knowledge. Most customers can see and understand the benifit on calibration, while again, a small portion think it's smoke and mirrors.

I have a $6500 plasma 60". Yes, it's systematic because BB does not have the software to calibrate it.
I'm assuming you have a Pioneer 6020? If that is true then yes you are correct. There was a time period where we did not have the correct software and training to calibrate the new Kuro plasmas when they arrived (as it should have been the case with every calibrator in the country). However, it has been resolved and we are equipped to fully calibrate them (in our market anyway)
Congrats that you are ethical and concerned for the value that you provide your clients. Chances are that if you choose to make a long career in this business, however, you will end up being rather unsatisfied with the limitations that are inherent in the kind of operation that BB sustains. As independents, we can define the level of service that we provide based on what is best for the client. That is often not possible within the business model of a big box operation like BB. The serve a purpose in the market, just like the internet dealers and every other type of provider of products and services. They are not so much of a threat to us independents as many would assume and those of us who are successful usually do not see them as such.
Thank you. I pride myself on being what I consider to be an ethical person and not being in the business for the wrong reasons. Now don't get me wrong, I would much rather work (better yet own) a smaller independent operation but it's just not in the cards. If I was offered a position at one, you better believe I would take it. In my area, there isn't a big enough market for that type of business and the only smaller company in our area hasn't hired in the five years I've been here so it's just not going to happen. BB happens to be the only place that I can work at that I'm passionate about.

Back to the topic at hand, like I said, our calibration guy gets back from vacation next week and I will be sure to inquire as to what the new equipment he is testing is called. I'm sure all of you are very interested. He is finally calibrating my TV once he gets back so hopefully I will get to see it first hand.

I said what? Someone else mentioned quantity and percentages, I merely stated an independent calibrator is interested in the image and the customer. I have many years of experience in corporate management positions, I have seen how employees, work ethics, accountability, responsibility have dwindled over the years. I would never hire a young employee and send them out with my truck or equipment. It is a generalization, however I have seen how "employees" abuse company equipment and get by on as little effort as possible including shortcuts. There may be a few good ones, but in general, it's the one with the most risk who generally tries or does the best work.

It is good that BB is promoting calibrations. There is not nearly enough "press" on the benefit of calibration. I would guess that a majority of BB customers, sold a calibration, never heard of calibration before entering the store. They were given a pressure sales pitch to include it with their TV purchase, similar to an extended warranty. The customer who seeks a independent calibrator has some prior knowledge about calibration and is generally shopping for results. There are also those who want the "professional" for the BB price........

"An independent calibrator is selling you himself and his services, a BB salesman is selling for a commission, no intention of "customer satisfaction" or ever hearing from or seeing that customer again. The are more like a used car salesman......"

I guess I equate customer satisfaction in the service industry as the goal for a serviceman.

"For the independent professional calibrator, it's all about the image and the customer"

You can argue the same for some BB Calibrators - pride in work and service? Either way it doesn't matter and you may not have been eluding to this, but there is this elitist atitude the BB calibrators are not capable of knowing how to do a proper calibration or that that they do a good job. Maybe most don't but there are some like above that do.

"An independent calibrator is selling you himself and his services, a BB salesman is selling for a commission, no intention of "customer satisfaction" or ever hearing from or seeing that customer again. The are more like a used car salesman......"

I guess I equate customer satisfaction in the service industry as the goal for a serviceman.

"For the independent professional calibrator, it's all about the image and the customer"

You can argue the same for some BB Calibrators - pride in work and service? Either way it doesn't matter and you may not have been eluding to this, but there is this elitist atitude the BB calibrators are not capable of knowing how to do a proper calibration or that that they do a good job. Maybe most don't but there are some like above that do.Are you saying the "BB Calibrator" is actually making the sales pitch and sale of his services, or is it a BB salesman selling a product that a BB employed calibrator will sent out to perform. There is a bit of a difference here. True, there may be some BB calibrators who take pride in their job and eventually may migrate to an independent calibrator. "In general" big store electronics sales personnel sell what they are told and how they are told. I have heard some awful, misleading, clueless replies and pitches to unknowing customers..... I have also asked some technical questions and have been walked away from. I have heard that if the sales personnel get the feeling/indication one is not going to buy or just shopping, move on to someone else.

The issue I have with many "new" calibrators is the fact many have never seen a truly calibrated reference system, nor do they spend much time watching one to get the background to "see" if something is off. Doing 1000 calibrations has no meaning towards calibration abilities.

As many have stated here there may be some good BB calibrators, but the percentages may be against being able to make a general statement. Not all independent ISF or THX calibrators are guaranteed to be able to give you the best calibration. How do you get the best in a calibration? First, interview your calibrator.......

Fair enough - I don't rely on Magnolia or BB's knowledge. I am not that knowledgable and I have yet to find anyone at my BB that understands more than I do. I constatntly hear falsities and outright lies from their sales staff. My local calibration guy has changed my generalized opinion - he may be the exception, but I am sure there are others that are really into their BB jobs and undertake it passionately with a zeal for quality. Does he know what a good calibration looks like? I would hope so after the ISF training and the 100's he has calibrated, but hen again...maybe not.

Does he know what a good calibration looks like? I would hope so after the ISF training and the 100's he has calibrated, but hen again...maybe not.This is where a lot of false impressions materialize. The ISF class and probably the THX class don't fully cover what a "reference" image is. First thing, you need a display and components capable of creating that image, then, the proper equipment to calibrate it. Next you need to watch it, live with it, for quite some time to get used to the picture. Many calibrators don't own this level of resource. I have heard too many stories of calibrators who "trust" their instruments over their eyes.

Fuel for thought here (http://www.cepro.com/article/best_buy_employee_high_school_kids_will_replace_skilled_magn olia_staff?utm_source=CEPWeekly&utm_medium=email)

I have a $6500 plasma 60". Yes, it's systematic because BB does not have the software to calibrate it.

I'm assuming you have a Pioneer 6020? If that is true then yes you are correct. There was a time period where we did not have the correct software and training to calibrate the new Kuro plasmas when they arrived (as it should have been the case with every calibrator in the country). However, it has been resolved and we are equipped to fully calibrate them (in our market anyway)I have a 151-FD which basically doesn't require a calibration from a bang for the buck basis. It was only less than a week ago that they still don't have the software to activate my ISF modes.

I believe negative generalizations hold true as a majority of BB calibrators are clueless and this will have a reflection on all employees there. Spoil it for the 1 or 2 good guys there, but that's the way it works. BB could change this by ensuring standards to make the majority of calibrators are high quality, but that's not how it is and the odds are currently very unfavorable that a customer will get a good calibration.

and was certainly not mine. After taking the time to explain everything along the way he returned after a move and fw upgrade to recalibrate (and I live in rural Alaska). He pulled up my file compared the changes to setting after upgrade and redid the calibration from scratch and then compared the changes from all stages.Definitely not the case with mine, no before and after and especially in 45mins of work, he wouldn't even have time to do anything. I bet most customers are in this boat.

"An independent calibrator is selling you himself and his services, a BB salesman is selling for a commission, no intention of "customer satisfaction" or ever hearing from or seeing that customer again. The are more like a used car salesman......"

I guess I equate customer satisfaction in the service industry as the goal for a serviceman.

"For the independent professional calibrator, it's all about the image and the customer"

You can argue the same for some BB Calibrators - pride in work and service? Either way it doesn't matter and you may not have been eluding to this, but there is this elitist atitude the BB calibrators are not capable of knowing how to do a proper calibration or that that they do a good job. Maybe most don't but there are some like above that do.


So the bottom line is...interview your calibrator before contracting to have service done. This is what most of the independent pros will tell you. This is not an elitist attitude at all. The point is that you are unlikely to get the level of service from a BB calibrator that you can from one of the best of the independents. If you compared the best of the BB guys with the best of the independents, there would be no contest. If you compare the best of the BB guys with a mediocre independents, you may have more similar service, but it will vary greatly with the specific individuals and location. I don't think it is elitist to recognize the differences in business models and the trends in service.

You get what you pay for, but only if you are lucky or doing your homework.

So the bottom line is...interview your calibrator before contracting to have service done.It does not work that way at Best Buy. I tried it to verify if the kid could calibrate my display. Best Buy does not have a method for you to contact the calibrator and they don't know who it will be. I persisted and told dispatch to leave my message to the kid, but month after month no one called me back. It's a chop shop.

If your ever bored one day all you HDTV guys, walk into a BB and walk around the tvs untill one of the sales guys/clowns asks you for help. Then try and throw everything you know about HDMI calibrations tv's EVERYTHING out the window and act like you have no clue what is going on. If you are ever in need of killing 45 minutes of your time, go this route. You wouldnt believe some of the BS that comes out of these guys mouths. Former seasonal BB employee myself, back when the xbox's first came out, not sure what year that was. But we were told the company makes more money off of selling you there warrenty plans, accessories and pretty much anything else that doesnt have big company name all over it. When it comes down to it, they will rob you either way. The turning point in your "you have absolutly no idea what an hdmi cable is" conversation with the poor BB employee, should always be when that mofo walks you over to those HMDI cables that will set you back about 90 bucks, but dont worry, your 120hz 1080p will look so much better. As soon as this happens, thats when you start busting out your knowledge of HDMI cables, differences between plasmas, lcd, dlps crts the whole works...... For some odd reason the "omfg who is this guy" reaction that happens everytime is worth the wasted time you spent listening to his garbage. Support the smaller tv chains and online companies, best buy is great for a good bathroom if needed and a sprite on the way out! Dont mind that guy who just got bent on a 46" lcd walking out with a smile on his face. Little does he know, bubba will be waiting for his return:p

Best Buy serves a purpose in the market. It is not necessary to make such generalizations. Yes, it is true that their people are often misinformed and in general less well educated than most of us here, but what do you expect from that kind of business.

There are times that I buy things from BB and recommend that others do when they have a decent value. As long as you do your homework you will know the difference.

I'm assuming you have a Pioneer 6020? If that is true then yes you are correct. There was a time period where we did not have the correct software and training to calibrate the new Kuro plasmas when they arrived (as it should have been the case with every calibrator in the country). However, it has been resolved and we are equipped to fully calibrate them (in our market anyway)



Just curious, I'm an ISF calibrator out of the one of the BB stores and I'm curious what kind of equipment they are using for calibrating 6020FD's. I've gotten 2 pioneers so far. I personally showed the customer some other references to go to, to get it calibrated. We use the Sencore Colorpro V (but no ControlCAL). Which isn't terrible, but without ControlCAL, I don't see how any calibrator can honestly put his seal of approval on one of these displays without using it. So I'm curious what your calibrator is using to calibrate the 9G pioneers.

And if you are aware of what new equipment they are going to, please inform me. I've tried to get with a few higher ups to see if they are making any changes and they either have no idea, or say nothing is changing as far as I know. So any info my way is appreciated immensely. Thanks

I've already gotten a few people mad at the store because I wouldn't calibrate certain displays. It is not that I wouldn't do it, but I think the same way a lot of the non-BB calibrators do on this forum. You are basically putting your name and reputation on the line when you do a TV. I for one, am not going to throw my reputation down the toilet because it makes my store money.

If I feel I can't do a great job and have customer satisfaction backed up with accurate results (calibration reports) then I won't do the display. I'd personally lump the 9G Pios in that category is all.

If people don't know about calibrating it's doubtful they are going to see the subtle differences a calibration can make. Generally most flat screens can be "calibrated" to a large extent in the user menu.

Back in the days of CRT rear projection sets calibrations made vast improvements over the stock settings, not so much with flat panels. To REALLY calibrate a plasma the back normally needs to come off to adjust the panel voltages. Small changes to the panel drive voltages (especially VSUS) make big differences in the picture.

If people don't know about calibrating it's doubtful they are going to see the subtle differences a calibration can make. Generally most flat screens can be "calibrated" to a large extent in the user menu.

Back in the days of CRT rear projection sets calibrations made vast improvements over the stock settings, not so much with flat panels. To REALLY calibrate a plasma the back normally needs to come off to adjust the panel voltages. Small changes to the panel drive voltages (especially VSUS) make big differences in the picture.
I'm assuming this is normally done through potentiometers?

If people don't know about calibrating it's doubtful they are going to see the subtle differences a calibration can make.Try telling your wife/girlfriend that it doesnt make a difference which shade of lipstick she wears, "it's doubtful they are going to see the subtle differences" Generally most flat screens can be "calibrated" to a large extent in the user menu.Doesn't matter where the calibration controls are, you need to be able to make the correct adjustments.....Back in the days of CRT rear projection sets calibrations made vast improvements over the stock settings, not so much with flat panels. To REALLY calibrate a plasma the back normally needs to come off to adjust the panel voltages. Small changes to the panel drive voltages (especially VSUS) make big differences in the picture.Really.......... I've never seen anything like that.

It is not all that uncommon to have to tweak the voltages in a PDP. To do some of them right you need a scope, some can be done visually. None should be done in the first few hundred hours of operation. Most calibrators would not even attempt it, as the symptom would not be one of the things they normally address, just like a panel with poor gray scale or needing CMS alignments would largely be ignored by most service techs. The worlds of the service tech and the calibration specialist do not cross over very much, unfortunately. IMO, every service tech should be as qualified as your average calibrator when it comes to aligning displays. Most could not care less what it looks like if there is an image on the screen. I think most calibration specialists would do well to review service and training information on the sets that they calibrate as well. It surprises me how few actually do.

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.
Admittedly, calibrators are hit or miss. I'm hoping you requested your money back after he "calibrated" it by eye?

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.If it was done "by eye", I would assume you might have paid for a consultation but not a full calibration....

Admittedly, calibrators are hit or miss. I'm hoping you requested your money back after he "calibrated" it by eye?I have not.

If it was done "by eye", I would assume you might have paid for a consultation but not a full calibration....It was the "full" calibration.

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.
Adjusting the grayscale by eye??!

Grr... That makes me :mad:

In my humble opinion, anyone who "calibrates" a TV without going into the service menu and using professional equipment, is a fraud who's only doing it for a quick buck. Such a person has no real passion for the science of video display calibration.

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.

What year? 10 years ago, that would not have been uncommon. Today, there are much better ways.

In my humble opinion, anyone who "calibrates" a TV without going into the service menu and using professional equipment, is a fraud who's only doing it for a quick buck. Such a person has no real passion for the science of video display calibration.

The THX Calibration course teaches to use the Service Menu only if it cannot be adusted properly in the User Menu (in fact, no Service Menu training is taught during the 3 day course - same with ISF). Does that mean ISF and THX are frauds?

Well...I've also had a "professional" calibrator on this forum who didn't do anything but adjusted the grayscale by eye. Even my BB calibrator did a better job, though it's not saying much.

What year? 10 years ago, that would not have been uncommon. Today, there are much better ways.

(in fact, no Service Menu training is taught during the 3 day course

Randy, perhaps you missed the section on Samsung CCA manipulation, or working on the Panasonic industrial plasma? Also working on the Westinghouse and the Sylvania LCD panels? Both of these also require service mode entry.

The THX Calibration course teaches to use the Service Menu only if it cannot be adusted properly in the User Menu

the above is basically true. The calibrator has to balance the need to perform a level of tweeking vs consumer convenience vs the potential to screw something up.

As Randy has indicated, there is no need on many displays, to enter the service menus to perform a 100% calibration (including CMS manipulation - where applicable).

Randy, perhaps you missed the section on Samsung CCA manipulation, or working on the Panasonic industrial plasma? Also working on the Westinghouse and the Sylvania LCD panels? Both of these also require service mode entry.



the above is basically true. The calibrator has to balance the need to perform a level of tweeking vs consumer convenience vs the potential to screw something up.

As Randy has indicated, there is no need on many displays, to enter the service menus to perform a 100% calibration (including CMS manipulation - where applicable).I agree with Gregg, furthermore, I learned the SM color decoder and grayscale adjustments for a Sony CRT in the ISF class. Many of the professional calibrators participate in a "private" forum, where they can discuss, learn and share calibration info. This is a big advantage for both the calibrator and customer.

I agree with Gregg, furthermore, I learned the SM color decoder and grayscale adjustments for a Sony CRT in the ISF class. .

Guess I should have gone to your ISF Class. I went to a special 3 day course Joel taught himself in Boca with as much hands on time as the THX class and no info on the Sony Color Decoder Errors/management was ever taught. Furthermore, I guess the 10 minute demonstration on CCA with the Samsung with no hands on time with that unit @ THX, I guess I am not surprised I don't remember that was the one option in the SM on that unit.

Furthermore, I am aware of multiple warranty claims that Sony has rejected because of statements a calibrator had gone into the SM. Now granted, that had nothing to do with OB failures and the like, but they like to use that as an excuse to deny warranty claims.

But regardless, Joel and Gregg both stated in very certain terms in the classes, only go into the SM unless you cannot adjust the set in the UM.

Thus regarding Shawn1's statement:

In my humble opinion, anyone who "calibrates" a TV without going into the service menu and using professional equipment, is a fraud who's only doing it for a quick buck. Such a person has no real passion for the science of video display calibration.

If he thinks Gregg and Joel fit that description, he might need to re-examine his opinion.

What year? 10 years ago, that would not have been uncommon. Today, there are much better ways.Recently.

I've come to the conclusion that a Best Buy calibration is a pretty good value compared to a 'professional' calibrator here.

I've come to the conclusion that a Best Buy calibration is a pretty good value compared to some 'professional' calibrators.That is totally dependent on "your" definition of a professional calibrator. Just taking a ISF class does not automatically make a "professional calibrator"

From stories I've heard, the person who claimed to do a ISF calibration by eye (no calibration equipment), could probably do better than some BB calibrators. But we are just talking about skill sets developed by "calibrators" who have taken the ISF class. Some become great calibrators and some not so good. Someone really into "calibration" can probably tune their skills by starting at BB, however, the time to do a really through calibration is not in the BB guidelines......

Here's a bit of an argument for all of the people babbling nonsensically about how Monsters are a rip-off, BBY is a scam, and calibration sucks.

I was an audio engineer at Interscope Records and am an MHT Pro at BBY. Monster HDMI cables, are in fact, overpriced. However, you do need a faster speed HDMI cable to get a cleaner picture. The Ultra 1000 is way too much, same with the M series. But the cheap Blu-Ray Kit HDMI or the Rocketfish is more than enough. You need a 120hz HDMI, or you will see judder, pixelation, and a loose image. Plain and simple.

Monster PowerCenters regulate your energy and keep power surges from causing problems with your TV sources. Once again, plain and simple. They turn it off and back on, and regulate energy. That's about it.

TV Calibration is absolutely worth it. ISF Certified, and it increases your black levels. You get a cleaner, darker, more realistic image that saves you energy. Lastly, plain and simple.

Go ahead, rag on about how you will "block" me and I am drinking the BBY koolaid and that you know all.

But coming from a person that has worked at MHT for 3 years and before that an independent HT store for 6 years, I think it's fair to say I know more than armchair "Home Theater experts" on AVSForum and the internet as a whole. $10 HDMI don't work like a Monster or RF. Plain and simple.

People like you come into our Best Buys and think you know everything about HT, TVs, and you look down on us when you judge us. Just because you sit in a cubicle all day and type up reports doesn't make us lesser than you. So when you start screwing with our calibrated sets or try to undermine what we're recommending for you, expect nasty service. You did it to yourself. And if you really think those sharks at Sears know better, once again, good for you.

Sorry for the rant, idiots like I see far too often on this site irritate me.

However, you do need a faster speed HDMI cable to get a cleaner picture. The Ultra 1000 is way too much, same with the M series. But the cheap Blu-Ray Kit HDMI or the Rocketfish is more than enough. You need a 120hz HDMI, or you will see judder, pixelation, and a loose image. Plain and simple.

You need to do some more research... nothing more to say.

But coming from a person that has worked at MHT for 3 years and before that an independent HT store for 6 years, I think it's fair to say I know more than armchair "Home Theater experts" on AVSForum and the internet as a whole. $10 HDMI don't work like a Monster or RF. Plain and simple.

Years of experience don't mean crap. I can give you a person who has been "programming" for 10+ years, and put him next to a person who has been programming for 2 years... You'd be surprised to find sometimes the ones with less "yearly" experience know quite a bit more.


Sorry for the rant, idiots like I see far too often on this site irritate me.
A comment like that makes me think you're the arrogant one.

You need a 120hz HDMI, or you will see judder, pixelation, and a loose image. Plain and simple.

Just a thought, but you may want to look more at your source than your cable.

Well, I've hooked a Dynex 6 ft HDMI to my Toshiba, then a 4 ft BluRay Kit Monster to it, and night and day.

Well, I've hooked a Dynex 6 ft HDMI to my Toshiba, then a 4 ft BluRay Kit Monster to it, and night and day.
I'd guess a defective cable. At 6 feet there should be no difference. Though do you know what category it is certified for?

Well, I've hooked a Dynex 6 ft HDMI to my Toshiba, then a 4 ft BluRay Kit Monster to it, and night and day.

How did you establish this difference? What test patterns were you observing and how did they measure or appear different? What content, specifically, were you observing, and what specifically appeared different?

TV Calibration is absolutely worth it. ISF Certified, and it increases your black levels. You get a cleaner, darker, more realistic image that saves you energy.

I agree, except with the saving you energy part. That really depends. It may or may not. If you choose an eco mode out of the box on some of the newer TVs, a calibrated TV may use more energy. On some displays, like projectors, calibration will have no effect at all on power consumption. The power-saving angle is a stretch, as even BBY says. The essence of calibration is about image accuracy, hence image quality. As a calibrator, one does not concern themselves with power use, and it doesn't necessarily correlate with power savings. Often, compared to out of the box vivid settings on a TV, it may happen to correlate with less power, but that is not a goal of a calibrated image.


Further:
But coming from a person that has worked at MHT for 3 years and before that an independent HT store for 6 years, I think it's fair to say I know more than armchair "Home Theater experts" on AVSForum and the internet as a whole.

I hope you realize that this is a fairly insulting, and ignorant assertion. I hope you realize that many of the engineers behind the displays you sell, or displays a good deal more advanced than you carry, are members and participate in this forum. I hope you realize that many of the studio engineers, video compressionists, mastering engineers, mixers, codec developers, and many more who are behind all the technologies in your products and the content you sell, participate in this forum as well. So if you're going to come on here trying to claim that there is a visible performance difference among functioning HDMI cabling on a forum where there are people intimately involved with the design and engineering of HDMI cables and HDMI technology claiming that you know more than the entire internet, you're going to get laughed right the heck out of here for such absurdities.

On this forum are engineers, founders, etc, from the likes of Dolby, Denon, Marantz, JVC, Triad, Audyssey, Microsoft, Accupel, etc etc etc. The list of professionals around AVS is quite long. The amount of knowledge you can dig up, if you dig, is VAST. I suggest you drop the attitude, FAST, because you'll not learn anything if you think you know more than the very people who designed and built your products and technologies from the ground up.

If an HDMI cable is functioning for the bandwidth you are requiring of it without dropping pixels, then you are getting 100% of everything and it is not distinguishable in any way from another functioning HDMI cable. This is not to say that HDMI cabling is not a serious concern at high bandwidths or at distance, but when an HDMI cable fails, it fails rather spectacularly. There are no shades of differentiation as there are with analog cabling. It either works, or it does not work.

I'd guess a defective cable. At 6 feet there should be no difference. Though do you know what category it is certified for?

I wouldn't guess that. If the cable were defective it would most likely show no picture at all, or some variation of the sparklies. If you're getting a picture on both, there will be no difference at all. The category certification isn't really relevant for this, and 6 feet is extremely short, so hitting bandwidth for 1080p60 should be no problem. If you were going say 30feet, then it's a whole other ballgame, and cabling quality can be quite critical indeed, but again, if it's working then it's 100%. If the cabling is an issue, it is painfully obvious.

"People like you come into our Best Buys and think you know everything about HT, TVs, and you look down on us when you judge us. Just because you sit in a cubicle all day and type up reports doesn't make us lesser than you. So when you start screwing with our calibrated sets or try to undermine what we're recommending for you, expect nasty service."

Resentful staff and nasty service. Glad you do not work in a restaurant. You only get annoyed because you care about what they think - judging you. Be magnamous, rise above it, let it go like water of a ducks back. Alternatively just do not give a damn and if you want to be annoying try being patronizing, more irratating than being nasty, and will not get you sacked, you were just trying to be helpful.

Sorry for the rant, idiots like I see far too often on this site irritate me.

If you are going to break the rules and make personal attacks and insults, at least direct it to someone specific.

I wouldn't guess that. If the cable were defective it would most likely show no picture at all, or some variation of the sparklies. If you're getting a picture on both, there will be no difference at all. The category certification isn't really relevant for this, and 6 feet is extremely short, so hitting bandwidth for 1080p60 should be no problem. If you were going say 30feet, then it's a whole other ballgame, and cabling quality can be quite critical indeed, but again, if it's working then it's 100%. If the cabling is an issue, it is painfully obvious.
I agree with everything you stated. Hence why i said at 6 feet there should be no difference, as that is short enough for 1080p even if it is only certified for 720p... but that is not always a guarantee, sometimes the cheapest of the cheap cert for category 1 may not do well when going 1080p. And as you also stated, he failed to mention the specifics of what "night and day" are, so i figured if there is any difference it would be because the cable is defective, and perhaps he is seeing those sparklies and periodic dropouts.
If he replies and states that he is seeing lacking contrast/saturation...etc then of course thats bs.

How did you establish this difference? What test patterns were you observing and how did they measure or appear different? What content, specifically, were you observing, and what specifically appeared different?

The sharpness of the image and judder was worse with the Dynex when watching The Dark Knight.

Not directed at you Chris, but when people degrade the company that's been great to me and the people I work with (can't speak for other stores, my store is Top 5 in the company in pretty much everything, so it is possibly different for me), I do get offended quickly.

The sharpness of the image and judder was worse with the Dynex when watching The Dark Knight.

Can you be specific? What image, specifically were you looking at, and how did you ascertain a change in sharpness? Did you check this observation on any test patterns?

As for motion judder, how specifically did you test this and did the system remain the same? There is not a way that one can explain that HDMI cabling would have any bearing on motion judder issues, so I am not understanding how it is you are attributing motion judder to an HDMI cabling issue. It is contrary to the design of the system, there isn't a way for this to occur with HDMI.

You have to understand that given the function of HDMI signaling and how HDMI actually functions, your assertions as to a visual quality difference in sharpness and judder are not reasonable. This is not to say that they aren't true, but if the actually did occur, and were objectively quantified as having occurred, it would be extremely intriguing to investigate just how in the heck that happened. Because what you suggest you saw is not reasonably attributable to a change in HDMI cabling. Therefore, I suggest that either you did not actually see a change objectively, or that more than just the HDMI cabling was changed in the system.

Again, unless the HDMI cable is actually failing in the application, there will not be any visible difference between functioning HDMI cables. And an HDMI cable failure will never appear as the visual changes/artifacts that you describe. I hope you understand my skepticism.

Not directed at you Chris, but when people degrade the company that's been great to me and the people I work with (can't speak for other stores, my store is Top 5 in the company in pretty much everything, so it is possibly different for me), I do get offended quickly.

Well you shouldn't be offended, and even if you are, offending other people is not a suitable response. Further, you assume certain things about others which may or may not be true. I have a rather significant affiliation with your company, for instance, so assuming things about other people whom you do not know is not a fair thing to do, just as it isn't when people assume wrongly things about you, or BB, or whatever.

calibration i think is total bs i mean ya you are extending the life of your tv 5 to 6 years but hell the tv already last a while and i dont wanna take away from my picture quality!!!!!:)

calibration i think is total bs i mean ya you are extending the life of your tv 5 to 6 years but hell the tv already last a while and i dont wanna take away from my picture quality!!!!!:)

Calibration has nothing to do with the life of your display. It has everything to do with picture quality. Unless you have calibrated your display, your PQ sucks, to put it bluntly.

Greetings

Why does a person that does not believe in calibration come to post in a calibration forum?

More to banish to ignore lists.

regards

Here's a bit of an argument for all of the people babbling nonsensically about how Monsters are a rip-off, BBY is a scam, and calibration sucks.

I was an audio engineer at Interscope Records and am an MHT Pro at BBY. Monster HDMI cables, are in fact, overpriced. However, you do need a faster speed HDMI cable to get a cleaner picture. The Ultra 1000 is way too much, same with the M series. But the cheap Blu-Ray Kit HDMI or the Rocketfish is more than enough. You need a 120hz HDMI, or you will see judder, pixelation, and a loose image. Plain and simple.

Monster PowerCenters regulate your energy and keep power surges from causing problems with your TV sources. Once again, plain and simple. They turn it off and back on, and regulate energy. That's about it.

TV Calibration is absolutely worth it. ISF Certified, and it increases your black levels. You get a cleaner, darker, more realistic image that saves you energy. Lastly, plain and simple.

Go ahead, rag on about how you will "block" me and I am drinking the BBY koolaid and that you know all.

But coming from a person that has worked at MHT for 3 years and before that an independent HT store for 6 years, I think it's fair to say I know more than armchair "Home Theater experts" on AVSForum and the internet as a whole. $10 HDMI don't work like a Monster or RF. Plain and simple.

People like you come into our Best Buys and think you know everything about HT, TVs, and you look down on us when you judge us. Just because you sit in a cubicle all day and type up reports doesn't make us lesser than you. So when you start screwing with our calibrated sets or try to undermine what we're recommending for you, expect nasty service. You did it to yourself. And if you really think those sharks at Sears know better, once again, good for you.

Sorry for the rant, idiots like I see far too often on this site irritate me.

if you'd like people to take your post seriously, you might want to consider that your first statement is pretty much completely and totally incorrect... :rolleyes:

especially when you follow it with the comment about "armchair home experts, claim greater knowledge than those experts, and in the sentence that immediately follows, prove that you don't understand how hdmi works...

The sharpness of the image and judder was worse with the Dynex when watching The Dark Knight.

Not directed at you Chris, but when people degrade the company that's been great to me and the people I work with (can't speak for other stores, my store is Top 5 in the company in pretty much everything, so it is possibly different for me), I do get offended quickly.

I know it's been said, but working at BB does not, an expert, make. Not to say there aren't some wonderfully informed and good HT people there.

When I worked there, part time, years ago (was a black shirt "techie"), we found that the level of computer competance was all over the place. And, the HT people were in the same boat...many drank the marketing kool aid that BB shoved down their throats at the morning "clap" meetings.

Anyway, some of your statements about HDMI cables are just blatantly wrong. And it's been proven.

I would concur with some of the others on this site and consider stepping back and consider doing more research outside of BB marketing packets.

You need a 120hz HDMI, or you will see judder, pixelation, and a loose image. Plain and simple.



really? what 120hz sources might you have at bb that don't exist anywhere else in the world? :rolleyes:

it's rather amusing that you posted to "defend mht/bb's honor", and the only thing you accomplished was to prove to many that we are correct in believing that many who work there are clueless....

No, you've successfully made yourself look like one of the many people who think Monster HDMI aren't worth it because you're too cheap, or ignorant, for that fact, to do your own research. The bloggers do it for you.

And if I'm not a HT expert, then what is an HT expert to you? I've dedicated most of my life to HT, I'm pretty sure I'm an expert. But if you'd like to prove me wrong, then go ahead, attempt.

I'll personally find it amusing.

I've dedicated most of my life to HT, I'm pretty sure I'm an expert. But if you'd like to prove me wrong, then go ahead, attempt.

I'll personally find it amusing.
I'm training to be an electrical engineer... and there are people here who are electrical engineers (hint: the people who design the systems you're talking about). Along with this, if they're at these forums they too have probably dedicated a lot of their time to home theaters.
Even further, how does "dedicating" most of one's life to home theaters make them an expert on a fairly new system?

No, you've successfully made yourself look like one of the many people who think Monster HDMI aren't worth it because you're too cheap, or ignorant, for that fact, to do your own research. The bloggers do it for you.

And if I'm not a HT expert, then what is an HT expert to you? I've dedicated most of my life to HT, I'm pretty sure I'm an expert. But if you'd like to prove me wrong, then go ahead, attempt.

I'll personally find it amusing.

Will you answer the question about how you determined there to be a visual or measurable performance difference among two functioning HDMI cables?

This is an AVScience forum, just FYI.

And if I'm not a HT expert, then what is an HT expert to you? I've dedicated most of my life to HT, I'm pretty sure I'm an expert. But if you'd like to prove me wrong, then go ahead, attempt.


experts generally understand what they are talking about... since you've made it very clear for us that you don't understand what you are talking about, it's safe to say you don't fall in that category...

you don't need any help from me (or anyone else, for that matter)... you are doing a fine enough job on your own proving your lack of expertise... :p

i'm waiting for you to tell us what 120hz sources you have... :rolleyes:

unfortunately for my wallet, "cheap" is one adjective that cannot be used to describe me... :o that's also true of many of the others that you are attempting to denigrate...

others have attempted to get across to you that you aren't dealing with a bunch of bench racers here... you ought to consider that...

No, you've successfully made yourself look like one of the many people who think Monster HDMI aren't worth it because you're too cheap, or ignorant, for that fact, to do your own research. The bloggers do it for you.

And if I'm not a HT expert, then what is an HT expert to you? I've dedicated most of my life to HT, I'm pretty sure I'm an expert. But if you'd like to prove me wrong, then go ahead, attempt.

I'll personally find it amusing.

HDMI is simply passing data. The data either gets to its destination or it doesn't. If it gets there you get a picture. If it doesn't you get corruption of the picture. This can vary depending on the amount of data loss but usually takes the form of green and white blocks on the picture (sparklies). Not judder not softness.

I've personally tested lots of hdmi cables of varying prices from many different manufacturers. I've yet to find one that exhibited any problems including the cheapest of the lot.

Where you may want to consider spending a bit more money on an hdmi cable is over very long runs ( more than 5 metres) although again I've found inexpensive hdmi to be far more robust than inexpensive dvi cables for example.

As for your comments about armchair enthusiasts. Throw a rock in here and you'll hit someone far more knowledgible that yourself regardless of whether they proclaim themselves experts or not.

Seriously Miss you should try and be little more civil.

How have I proved that I know nothing?

Because I believe in Monster HDMI?

You have done nothing to prove that there isn't a difference other than re-affirm that there are no 120hz sources yet. So what's so say when we have 120hz sources that it won't make a difference?

Even though 120hz cables visually make a difference with judder and pixelation. Also, if you have an HDMI that's not 10-bit, you won't get 10-bit color processing. That's a fact.

Prove me wrong with real sources not some self-righteous person's blog. As Trent Reznor said, the internet gives the minority the majority's voice, and I really feel that on this forum a lot. Real, documented sources if you want to prove me wrong, if you can't find any, then guess that proves I'm right.

But whatever.

There is no 120Hz in the HDMI spec. Equating data rate with frame rate capability is msleading and meaningless.

Exactly what rationale do you have for thinking that your mystical 120Hz cable improves judder and pixellation? This I would love to hear.

Color processing precision has nothing to do with source bitdepth. Your comments in this area demonstrates a serious lack of understanding about these issues.

Maybe you should stick with regassing plasmas or taking candy from babies or something.

How have I proved that I know nothing?

Because I believe in Monster HDMI?

Frankly, yes.

You have done nothing to prove that there isn't a difference other than re-affirm that there are no 120hz sources yet. So what's so say when we have 120hz sources that it won't make a difference?

Because the cable has very little to do with this. If the cable has the bandwidth to send a 120hz signal, then there is no issue. If it doesn't, then you have no picture, or rather obvious cabling failure in terms of the sparklies. Again, unless the cable is failing and the sink is unable to recover the data, you get very visible errors on the screen. It is, essentially, all or nothing.

Even though 120hz cables visually make a difference with judder and pixelation.

No, they absolutely do not. I asked you specifically for what testing illustrated any visible difference other than complete cable failure and you can't answer the question. The cable is a passive device and has no bearing at all on what the device is sending. Judder is not affected since the cable has no impact at all on what framerate a source is outputting. That is to say, the devices in question have no knowledge of the performance of the cable that is being used to connect them. Only the viewer may experience problems with poor cabling over long distances when they experience no picture or the sparklies.

Also, if you have an HDMI that's not 10-bit, you won't get 10-bit color processing. That's a fact.

If you mean an HDMI cable rather than a particular HDMI interface, then you are absolutely incorrect. Yes it is very much true that there are many HDMI inputs and outputs which do not support anything beyond 8-bit depth. But the cabling is a passive device and has no bearing on what is supported or not supported by the equipment it is being used to connect, unless of course, it has insufficient bandwidth for the distance and signal being sent and the cable fails. Further, the video signaling with HDMI is always padded to 10-bit words, even for 8-bit video, so there is not an increase in bandwidth requirements if you choose to send 10-bit video versus 8-bit video. In other words, there is no change in cabling requirement at all whether sending 8 or 10-bit video.

http://www.hdmi.org/download/HDMISpecification13a.pdf

See section 5.4.4

Prove me wrong with real sources not some self-righteous person's blog. As Trent Reznor said, the internet gives the minority the majority's voice, and I really feel that on this forum a lot. Real, documented sources if you want to prove me wrong, if you can't find any, then guess that proves I'm right.

But whatever.

You may not have realized for instance, that Mr D. is a mastering engineer. He knows what he's talking about.

You may not have realized for instance, that Mr D. is a mastering engineer. He knows what he's talking about.

Actually I'm a film compositor. However these days I'm also the head of the compositing department and a VFX supervisor although I still actually do shots myself.

I know a bit more about the techie side of things than your average comper because one of my specialisms is color grading and pipeline. I'm not from an engineering background I've actually got a BA in Animation of all things.

How have I proved that I know nothing?

Because I believe in Monster HDMI?

You have done nothing to prove that there isn't a difference other than re-affirm that there are no 120hz sources yet. So what's so say when we have 120hz sources that it won't make a difference?

Even though 120hz cables visually make a difference with judder and pixelation. Also, if you have an HDMI that's not 10-bit, you won't get 10-bit color processing. That's a fact.

Prove me wrong with real sources not some self-righteous person's blog. As Trent Reznor said, the internet gives the minority the majority's voice, and I really feel that on this forum a lot. Real, documented sources if you want to prove me wrong, if you can't find any, then guess that proves I'm right.

But whatever.


The only justification that you have provided is your personal belief that there is a difference. This difference you describe as relating to judder and pixelation. It is entirely possible that you have a misplaced belief that relates to some other difference that you perceived that in reality has nothing to do with judder and pixelation but you have attributed it to such. If you are unwilling to consider that there are greater understandings than your own on the matter, then you may as well go post on the AVBelief or AVFaith forums rather than here.

The notion that in order to refute a nonsensical belief one should have to provide evidence, while that belief requires no more justification than being stated by the individual that holds it is not science. It is, in fact, the most egregious abuse of fact and science to demand such evidence yourself.

It has been pointed out to you by more than one knowlegeable person that your attribution of improvements in judder and pixelation are very unlikely due to the factors you claim. Please try to understand the underlying science and technology before arguing otherwise or demanding evidence to prove a negative assertion, while providing none to support your own. To do otherwise will further confuse naive readers and further embarrass you to those who do understand the technology.

You may, indeed, have experienced some improvement in image quality. It may very well be that you are using the terminology wrong or have some other factors involved that are not noted nor understood. It may also be that you are mistaken or have been subject to a placebo or expectation bias. It would be useful and enhance the understanding of the technology to get to the bottom of the matter, but recriminations and arguments like you have provided simply make you look like you belong on Usenet, not a forum that is intended to be focused on the science of AV.

:rolleyes:

Will you answer my question? How did you determine this difference? What testing methodology and test material did you use? Did you know what cables were being used and were merely making a sighted subjective decision without any actual objective measurements?

If you are going to enter a science forum and claim that the sun goes around the earth, don't expect to be taken seriously unless you have some hard data to back it up.

Or do you still claim that you need a "10-bit cable" for 10-bit (or greater) signals? If so, could you explain to us what part of the cable makes it a 10-bit cable and how that differs from other (presumable non-10bit capable) HDMI cables?

Do you even know what's inside an HDMI cable, or the aspects of TP cabling that are important for this kind of application? Do you even know what I'm talking about?

It was purely eyesight. I hooked a Blu Ray Kit HDMI cord up to one of our Sony demo TVs, and then a Dynex HDMI to the one on the right. The gradients on the right one were much more visible, and judder was much more pronounced. Whether it was an issue with the TV or not, it was obviously better on the Monster HDMI.

Was it a different TV...? Were the TVs setup the same? Were you using the same BD player setup the same way with the same output to both TVs? You really haven't provided any information at all. It was purely eyesight of specifically WHAT!? What EXACTLY was it that you saw that was different.

I mean, you're drawing conclusions here that are just totally beyond the pale of what is supported by what you're looking at, and are totally impossible to attribute to HDMI cabling issues. None of what you describe will ever be caused by HDMI cabling failures.

All I can gather is that you may have had two completely different systems, and they looked different. Well gee, big surprise there. And you somehow believed that the HDMI cable had anything to do with that.

It was purely eyesight. I hooked a Blu Ray Kit HDMI cord up to one of our Sony demo TVs, and then a Dynex HDMI to the one on the right. The gradients on the right one were much more visible, and judder was much more pronounced. Whether it was an issue with the TV or not, it was obviously better on the Monster HDMI.

Your assumption is that it was better on the particular HDMI cable. Objective reading of the information provided does not support the HDMI cable as the cause of your perception. There are obviously more variables that would need to be islated to come to this conclusion. It is not uncommon for people to attribute what they perceive to a particular difference while not attending to all the variables. Very experienced researchers make these mistakes all the time.

Look a little harder for the why. If you spent as much effort isolating variables and understanding the technology as you have arguing your point you would understand why there is such skepticism for your conclusion. You might also find that there are more appropriate terms to describe the effects you are seeing.

Whether it was an issue with the TV or not, it was obviously better on the Monster HDMI.

Doesn't the first half of your sentence contradict your conclusion?

:confused:

been looking over this thread and would like to point out a few things.

1. monster power centers and other power products are no better than the competitor. that includes panamax, tripplite, etc. i can actually put APC above all of them from a personal standpoint. Seems monsters niche is making their products look aesthetically superior to the competitior. much like their cables.

2. The MAJORITY of best buy workers are not AV intelligent to an intermediate degree. If there are any enthusiasts who know what they are talking about then ive never met that person.

3. hdmi cables are one in the same across any brand. the signal transmitted is nothing but binary ones and zeroes. the information either gets there or it doesent.

hdmi cables are one in the same across any brand. the signal transmitted is nothing but binary ones and zeroes. the information either gets there or it doesent.

This is as naive and incorrect as the assumption that the percieved differences discussed above have to be due to HDMI cable differences. There are indeed differences, and digital signals do get altered in ways that can lead to image problems other than an all or nothing result. Digital signals are subject to the same effects as high frequency analog signals as far as cabling goes. The difference is that digital signals have a threshold that has to be reached before effects are significant. Losing or distorting some bits can have effects that look like noise or pixelation of other symptoms before it gets to the point of losing the image altogether. Generally, the TMDS that is used in HDMI and DVI signalling is rather robust at reasonable distances.


The more accurate point to be made is that for most short length applications, inexpensive HDMI cables will perform identically to more expensive ones. As lengths increase the differences may become more important, but not necessarily favoring Monster or any other brand over more reasonably priced products. The differences that one will ususally see, however, do not relate to the kind of issues that were attributed to HDMI above.

This is as naive and incorrect as the assumption that the percieved differences discussed above have to be due to HDMI cable differences. There are indeed differences, and digital signals do get altered in ways that can lead to image problems other than an all or nothing result. Digital signals are subject to the same effects as high frequency analog signals as far as cabling goes. The difference is that digital signals have a threshold that has to be reached before effects are significant. Losing or distorting some bits can have effects that look like noise or pixelation of other symptoms before it gets to the point of losing the image altogether. Generally, the TMDS that is used in HDMI and DVI signalling is rather robust at reasonable distances.


The more accurate point to be made is that for most short length applications, inexpensive HDMI cables will perform identically to more expensive ones. As lengths increase the differences may become more important, but not necessarily favoring Monster or any other brand over more reasonably priced products. The differences that one will ususally see, however, do not relate to the kind of issues that were attributed to HDMI above.

well id like to agree, but i dont. this has been discussed in threads years ago on these very boards. the transition of hdmi signals is once again binary data. the degraded results in longer lengths usually comes in lip sync issues and so forth. there are differences in quality analog cables with high quality shielding and so forth. there is absolutley no cable one can turn to for purchase to remedy a long run. i guess we will have to agree to disagree and ill leave it at that.

the degraded results in longer lengths usually comes in lip sync issues and so forth.

lip sync issues? nope... not possible... sparklies and complete loss of picture, yes...

well id like to agree, but i dont. this has been discussed in threads years ago on these very boards. the transition of hdmi signals is once again binary data. the degraded results in longer lengths usually comes in lip sync issues and so forth. there are differences in quality analog cables with high quality shielding and so forth. there is absolutley no cable one can turn to for purchase to remedy a long run. i guess we will have to agree to disagree and ill leave it at that.

A functioning HDMI cable will look totally identical to any other functioning HDMI cable. However this is not the same thing as saying that all HDMI cables are created equal. They most certainly are not. However, there is a very very small window where the failure of the cabling is not yet total, so in general it is fair to say that HDMI either works 100% or it doesn't.

But saying that since it's a binary digital signal that it either gets there or it doesn't is not totally accurate. Cabling does have an affect on jitter due to the capacitance of the cable.

The construction of an HDMI cable becomes very very crucial at long distances and at high bandwidths, just as it is for any data cabling. However, it might be interesting to note that in critical applications, I would never reach for one of the more popular and pricey name brand cables out there. I reach for a known cable, like Belden. If you want the absolute best, you go to a professional cable manufacturer, not a clown-college like Monster cable. You'll never see Monster in a studio, and there is a good reason for that...

I find it amusing everytime somebody tries to say, "hey hdmi cables are all the same" the only argument they have is "digital signal is 0s and 1s."

:rolleyes:

I find it amusing everytime somebody tries to say, "hey hdmi cables are all the same" the only argument they have is "digital signal is 0s and 1s."

:rolleyes:

If the 0s and 1s make it through the cable to the other end you have a perfectly fine HDMI cable regardless of cost.

The fact you find this amusing is something I find frankly hysterical.

Tell me do you also sell premium ethernet cables that improve judder and sharpness for the internet? Maybe they speed up download times or make google quicker?

If the 0s and 1s make it through the cable to the other end you have a perfectly fine HDMI cable regardless of cost.

The fact you find this amusing is something I find frankly hysterical.

Tell me do you also sell premium ethernet cables that improve judder and sharpness for the internet? Maybe they speed up download times or make google quicker?

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-GameLink-Cat5-Ethernet-Cable/dp/B00008VF9A

:rolleyes:

Gotta love it.

The reason I find it hysterical is because all you smartasses can't show me any proof about the "0s and 1s" theory. Some things conduct better than others, dumbasses.

The reason I find it hysterical is because all you smartasses can't show me any proof about the "0s and 1s" theory. Some things conduct better than others, dumbasses.

That's right. That's why some HDMI cables are much better than others. However that doesn't lead to the conclusion that when functioning for the task at hand with the given equipment, that there will be any difference at all.

You understand the difference between these two statements I hope:
1) HDMI cables differ in performance
2) Due to #1, some HDMI cables will provide a better quality image than others

Point one is absolutely true.

Point two is absolutely false.

All that differences in cabling quality will change is the length and bandwidth at which the cable will fail. If the cable is functioning, however, there is no affect at all on the image. It is, basically, an all or nothing proposition.

You have claimed that point 2 is true, and you are not correct about that.

tribestros,

There is no need to resort to namecalling and vulgarity. The simple fact is that most HDMI cables perform identically and neither the theory nor extensive experience suggests differently at short distances. There certainly are differences in cables, but there is little, if any, evidence to suggest that Monster products have any value over others. At longer lengths the design of the cables, in terms of wire size, geometry, dielectric, and shielding can make the difference between working and not working, or working with sparkles or without.

The 1s & 0s arguments are simply naive, but closer to reality than suggesting improvements in image quality and judder due to HDMI cables. Judder is an artifact that has nothing to do with the type of transmission in HDMI, image "sharpness" similarly, is not affected by dropout in HDMI connections. You can get sparkles, hash, or other noisy looking artifacts, but sharpness is associated with contrast and frequency repsonse, and there is no relation between losing bits and either in the way HDMI signaling is accomplished. You simply need to learn a little about the terminology that you use and the technology involved or you will continue to be corrected.

That's right. That's why some HDMI cables are much better than others. However that doesn't lead to the conclusion that when functioning for the task at hand with the given equipment, that there will be any difference at all.

You understand the difference between these two statements I hope:
1) HDMI cables differ in performance
2) Due to #1, some HDMI cables will provide a better quality image than others

Point one is absolutely true.

Point two is absolutely false.

All that differences in cabling quality will change is the length and bandwidth at which the cable will fail. If the cable is functioning, however, there is no affect at all on the image. It is, basically, an all or nothing proposition.

You have claimed that point 2 is true, and you are not correct about that.

This, is an excellent explanation. Thank you.

a functioning hdmi cable will look totally identical to any other functioning hdmi cable. However this is not the same thing as saying that all hdmi cables are created equal. They most certainly are not. However, there is a very very small window where the failure of the cabling is not yet total, so in general it is fair to say that hdmi either works 100% or it doesn't.

But saying that since it's a binary digital signal that it either gets there or it doesn't is not totally accurate. Cabling does have an affect on jitter due to the capacitance of the cable.

The construction of an hdmi cable becomes very very crucial at long distances and at high bandwidths, just as it is for any data cabling. However, it might be interesting to note that in critical applications, i would never reach for one of the more popular and pricey name brand cables out there. I reach for a known cable, like belden. If you want the absolute best, you go to a professional cable manufacturer, not a clown-college like monster cable. You'll never see monster in a studio, and there is a good reason for that...

well if were talking manufacturing errors in cables then its just a defective cable. You cant count that as one being better than the other. Thats just one lemon cable vs. One good one. Im speaking from a technical standpoint on how the signal is transmitted. If the cable is faulty, thats a whole other category and im not debating that.

well if were talking manufacturing errors in cables then its just a defective cable. You cant count that as one being better than the other. Thats just one lemon cable vs. One good one. Im speaking from a technical standpoint on how the signal is transmitted. If the cable is faulty, thats a whole other category and im not debating that.

No, again, the cable's performance absolutely will differ. However, because the signal is digital, as long as the cable is good enough for the task at hand, then there won't be any difference in terms of the transmission of the signal per se, so there will not be any difference in the data as it is recovered. It either is recovered or it is not. (ignoring cable jitter which is not really an issue with HDMI).

But just as with any twisted pair data cabling, the design of the cable has very big impacts on the performance of the cabling. The differences between cat 5, cat 5e, and cat 6 can be significant, and indeed different manufacturers of TP cabling can do different things in order to improve the stability of the cable which can be crucial for long distance runs. You can get bonded-pair cat from Belden for instance, and it is godawfully more expensive than other cat designs, but the impedance stability of the cable is like no other because the pairs are bonded together. Do you need that kind of cabling performance? Maybe. For short distances or low bandwidth, then no it gets you no benefits at all.

But if you're going very far, and trying to push gig ethernet far, then pulling cheesy cat 5 is a recipe for failure.

The same is true with HDMI cables. There absolutely are differences in cabling performance beyond just a faulty construction altogether. But in terms of it having any impact on the image, there won't be any unless it simply fails for the task at hand. In other words, while what is going down the cable will differ between cables, whether it makes a difference is not a matter of degree, it is simply all or nothing.

The reason I find it hysterical is because all you smartasses can't show me any proof about the "0s and 1s" theory. Some things conduct better than others, dumbasses.

Okay you've already had this explained to you.

The DATA either gets to the other end of the cable with sufficient margin for error to be decoded in a meaningful way or it doesn't. This is how digital video transmission works.

IF the data gets corrupted to a high enough degree then you get corruption on the picture , sparklies, missing blocks of image up until the point that nothing meaningful can be decoded and display at which point you no onger have a picture.

Loss of data does not manifest itself as softening or judder.

Jitter is NOT an issue with video over hdmi.

If you cannot get your faculties around these VERY SIMPLE easily understandable facts of digital transmission practicality I recommend you look for alternative employment in some other industy more suitable for your skillset , perhaps Burger King or McDonalds can take advantage of someone with your particular talents.