As a former project owner. I experienced both the joy of watching a 100" hdtv picture but also the pain of owning a projector (setup, daylight viewing etc..)

I think everyone agree in term of just picture, plasma is the better choice as it offers signifcantly better pq with light on and slightly more convenient to setup/maintain - like i can just turn it on to watch half hr news.

The main advantage of the projector of course is screen size and price. But with the 1080p 60" plasmas now under 4k, do you guys think it's just a matter of time before the 70-80" comes down to the same price level? By then the gap between plasma vs projector in term of size/value would almost disappear.

I mean even now, i am beginning to lean towards just gettin a 60" plasma instead of a projector as the screen size isnt that big a difference anymore.

What do you guys think, will home theater projectors eventually become obsolete or only kept in the dedicated dark rooms?

As a former project owner. I experienced both the joy of watching a 100" hdtv picture but also the pain of owning a projector (setup, daylight viewing etc..)

I think everyone agree in term of just picture, plasma is the better choice as it offers signifcantly better pq with light on and slightly more convenient to setup/maintain - like i can just turn it on to watch half hr news.

The main advantage of the projector of course is screen size and price. But with the 1080p 60" plasmas now under 4k, do you guys think it's just a matter of time before the 70-80" comes down to the same price level? By then the gap between plasma vs projector in term of size/value would almost disappear.

I mean even now, i am beginning to lean towards just gettin a 60" plasma instead of a projector as the screen size isnt that big a difference anymore.

What do you guys think, will home theater projectors eventually become obsolete or only kept in the dedicated dark rooms?
I am dazzled to read such a comment. Front projectors are making a resurgence as the prices plummet and it is just a matter of time until the owner of a 50 inch flatscreens realizes they can get more than 100 inches of beautiful image for much less that a medium size flat scree,. I went from a 58 rpt and 42 inch plasma to a 150 inch projected image and there is no comparison. Size really does matter. I am using a panasonic AX100U (street $1000.00) and acheiving a stunning image, even in modest light. (2000 lunens). All seem to agree that one goes from watching TV to being "at the movies' as one crosse sthe 100 inch screen size. Please take another look, Barry

Until there are affordable plasmas in the 100"+ range, it's not even a consideration. After having a 106" screen, I'd see a 70" to 80" plasma as a small screen TV.

Yep. When the price of 120" plasmas dip below $3K I'll make the move. Only $127,000 or so to go.

While I wouldn't mind having a nice quality 60" plasma in the house, it still would hardly "close the gap" compared to my 110" screen. Heck, even 110" seems small now (sometimes), but I really can't go any bigger with my setup.

As a former project owner. I experienced both the joy of watching a 100" hdtv picture but also the pain of owning a projector (setup, daylight viewing etc..)

I think everyone agree in term of just picture, plasma is the better choice as it offers signifcantly better pq with light on and slightly more convenient to setup/maintain - like i can just turn it on to watch half hr news.

The main advantage of the projector of course is screen size and price. But with the 1080p 60" plasmas now under 4k, do you guys think it's just a matter of time before the 70-80" comes down to the same price level? By then the gap between plasma vs projector in term of size/value would almost disappear.

I mean even now, i am beginning to lean towards just gettin a 60" plasma instead of a projector as the screen size isnt that big a difference anymore.

What do you guys think, will home theater projectors eventually become obsolete or only kept in the dedicated dark rooms?

BIG and cheap is a hard combination to dethrone.
80 inches? Bah! That's not theater.
With laser projection on the horizon you may wish to rethink your position.

I think everyone agree in term of just picture, plasma is the better choice as it offers signifcantly better pq with light on and slightly more convenient to setup/maintain

I may have missed something but I thought the black level on the affordable plasmas still have a way to go. I give you the convenience factor. That's why I have a TV room and a movie run.

A cheap 120 plasma won't cut it. It'd be impossible to get it in most rooms and it'd produce way too much heat.

I'd be interested in a 80" plasma though, as a secondary TV, but never to replace my projector.

I'll stay with a projector. Even if a 100" plasma became affordable, I'd pass for 2 reasons:

1) I'd never be able to maneuver it down the stairs to my basement as the turns are too tight.

2) I have a 9' wide CIH setup and could never go back to having to watch scope films on a 16:9 screen.

Good points. I also like the clean setup that a projector/screen combo provides. All that is up front in my setup is the screen and 3 speakers. All other equipment is in the back of the room.

Exactly what i have done here....

I was getting tired of my 52in DLP and started looking for a new TV..

Then i realized how nice the PQ is now with a front projector and decided to keep the 52 and install a projector with a 92in screen that drops down in front of the 52in TV.

For me this is the best setup i could do. Like that, the daytime watching and regular TV shows + kids gaming will be done on the TV while movies and HDTV shows, i use the projector.

Even if i change my tv for a 62 or 70in Plasma one day, the setup will probably stay the same.

If you can handle the downgrade then it would be a choice, as the ease of ownership of a flat panel is a nice thing.
I loved my Marantz PJ, but the fact that I couldn't treat it like a t.v. was not enjoyable.

If I could afford my expensive t.v. and a ~$1500 PJ, then it would be a no brainer to do so.
But I cant, I suspect many others can't as well.

resqguy....the 5080 Pio plasma has those blacks as well.

Although a vast majority of folks ceiling mount their devices, I like the portability of my unit, I will be using it mainly as a tabletop device in various rooms with my soon-to-arrive portable screen - I would not be able to do that with my 100" flat screen TV :D

Some day there will be an LCD TV that can be easily rolled up sort of in a fedex tube, I will have to think hard and long before investing in a Projector then :D :D Work is already underway, check out this LG-Philips link (http://www.theage.com.au/news/technology/first-a4-colour-epaper-unfurled/2007/05/14/1178995043132.html) folks :D :D

This thread is a poor attempt for a prank , I would never own a plasma or lcp I like my projector setup too much to go back.

I am dazzled to read such a comment. Front projectors are making a resurgence as the prices plummet and it is just a matter of time until the owner of a 50 inch flatscreens realizes they can get more than 100 inches of beautiful image for much less that a medium size flat scree,. I went from a 58 rpt and 42 inch plasma to a 150 inch projected image and there is no comparison. Size really does matter. I am using a panasonic AX100U (street $1000.00) and acheiving a stunning image, even in modest light. (2000 lunens). All seem to agree that one goes from watching TV to being "at the movies' as one crosse sthe 100 inch screen size. Please take another look, Barry

".... and it is just a matter of time until the owner of a 50 inch flatscreens realizes they can get more than 100 inches of beautiful image for much less that a medium size flat scree,."

HAHAHAHAA!!! I am SOOO that guy. Look at my last post in the thread I just started yesterday. Goodbye LCD/Plasma - HELLO PJ!!

OOOH yeah - bump for the guy who mentioned PJ portability. Imagine how HEAVY and hard to move/mount/deliver a 100"+ Plasma or LCD would be? HOLY COW!! You'd need an army to mount it too!!!!

I'm just about to go buy my first PJ - I think its a GREAT decision. Generally I like to buy new TV's every 5 years or so. In 5 more years I'll re-visit the decision, but for now, I think that I'm safe with the tech for 5!!!!

Aside from price, power consumption, and the logistics of moving and mounting a very fragile, very heavy thing, I see one other big drawback with large fixed panel screens ... they're hard to hide. The plasma frame come roll down picture devices are rediculously expensive for even the 42" displays, let alone 80 - 100". Your pictures as pretty limited too unless you want a near full size replica of The Night Watch.

This isn't a problem if you're installing one in a dedicated theatre room, but if you want to keep it in a livingroom or multipurpose room it basically takes over the room. Very low WAF there. Whereas a projector, screen combo can be easily disguised when not in use.

Also, if it breaks, I would much rather ship a 7lb small box than un-mount and transport a huge flat panel dispay. I cringe when I walk by a tv service department and see rows of plasmas / lcds / RPTV's lined up on the floor.

Just my opinion.

Jonathan

I mean even now, i am beginning to lean towards just gettin a 60" plasma instead of a projector as the screen size isnt that big a difference anymore.


60" is not home theater.:eek:

If you only have the room or funds for one screen, you need to make choices.

However, I suspect there are lots of folks like me who have projectors in a dedicated room and plasmas (LCDs, etc.) in other rooms.

It will be interesting to see what Pioneer does with the ultra slim and light Kuro. It may be another 3-4 years before there are 100" Plasmas that weigh 30-40 pounds.

60" is not home theater.:eek:

If you only have the room or funds for one screen, you need to make choices.

However, I suspect there are lots of folks like me who have projectors in a dedicated room and plasmas (LCDs, etc.) in other rooms.

No, no-one would do that. ;)

The biggest problem is the other displays seem to have shrunk a lot since I put in the theater room. :) I've been looking at getting a bigger TV to replace my tiny 51" RPTV.

i tried an 80" screen out for my projector.
even if you sit close... it is kind of small.

I think 100" would be the minumum that I like.

for my set up... I am going 104" just a BOC screen for now... but need something that will do better with ambient light. maybe a DIY Black Flame.

If you have a lot of light in your room and can't control it.
A good 60" Plasma will smoke any projector setup!

the PJ has the weight advantage which is great for transportation or if you want to sell the PJ.

60" is not home theater.:eek:

If you only have the room or funds for one screen, you need to make choices.

However, I suspect there are lots of folks like me who have projectors in a dedicated room and plasmas (LCDs, etc.) in other rooms.

Once you go big you never go back!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=740119

I can't even imagine trying to deal with this behemoth:

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/0...08-keynot.html

Video: http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/v...efies-reality/

Interesting subject...

It's true that flat screen TVs are creeping up in average size and a projected image, for the most part, has no limit... but people in this thread who are proclaiming how no one will ever compete with their 120" or 150" image are also in the vast minority; about 100" is the average screen size with 110" generally being the max for good reasons!

I'd guess it's mostly because, in your average home, any larger than that starts to look ridiculously out of proportion for the size of the room. Also, images that big need a lot of lumens, and output that high usually comes at a sacrafice in quality.

Still, no matter how much better projectors get, I think 100" is always going to be the average screen size for asthetic and practical reasons.

So will 100" plasmas make projectors obsolete?

I doubt it; first of all 100" plasmas are probably never going to be very affordable, if not only for the reason very few people would want to deal with the nightmare of getting one home and hanging it on the wall. So there won't be the quantity to bring the price down. Besides, I'm sure the materials alone in one of those will always be considerably more expensive that almost any high-end projector!

I can see 70" screens becoming the high-end of the plasma spectrum, but I'd be very surprised if they ever came below ten grand.

But we're forgetting one very important factor; the asthetic of the projected image!

First of all, a projected image has characteristics all it's own, just as a CRT, rear projector, LCD and Plasma all have a "look." Personally, I think a front projector has a more pleasing, natural image, so even if I could snap my fingers and have a 100" plasma on the wall, I'd still perfer the projector.

On top of that, there's just something about watching a projected image on a big screen that feels better; maybe it's that it puts you in that "movie theater" state of mind, so you watch with a little more fun; no matter how good a TV is, you still are always aware that you're watching a TV set, so I find movies feel less like movies.

Maybe once theaters get 100" plasmas I'll feel differently!

Interesting subject...

It's true that flat screen TVs are creeping up in average size and a projected image, for the most part, has no limit... but people in this thread who are proclaiming how no one will ever compete with their 120" or 150" image are also in the vast minority; about 100" is the average screen size with 110" generally being the max for good reasons!

I'd guess it's mostly because, in your average home, any larger than that starts to look ridiculously out of proportion for the size of the room. Also, images that big need a lot of lumens, and output that high usually comes at a sacrafice in quality.



Still, no matter how much better projectors get, I think 100" is always going to be the average screen size for asthetic and practical reasons.

So will 100" plasmas make projectors obsolete?

I doubt it; first of all 100" plasmas are probably never going to be very affordable, if not only for the reason very few people would want to deal with the nightmare of getting one home and hanging it on the wall. So there won't be the quantity to bring the price down. Besides, I'm sure the materials alone in one of those will always be considerably more expensive that almost any high-end projector!

I can see 70" screens becoming the high-end of the plasma spectrum, but I'd be very surprised if they ever came below ten grand.

But we're forgetting one very important factor; the asthetic of the projected image!

First of all, a projected image has characteristics all it's own, just as a CRT, rear projector, LCD and Plasma all have a "look." Personally, I think a front projector has a more pleasing, natural image, so even if I could snap my fingers and have a 100" plasma on the wall, I'd still perfer the projector.

On top of that, there's just something about watching a projected image on a big screen that feels better; maybe it's that it puts you in that "movie theater" state of mind, so you watch with a little more fun; no matter how good a TV is, you still are always aware that you're watching a TV set, so I find movies feel less like movies.

Maybe once theaters get 100" plasmas I'll feel differently!

I think you have captured the really important concept about projected images in comparisson to flat screens. Projected images seem natural, life like and believable. All plasma TVs are just that, TVs, with bright colors and rich scenes, that do not look like anything I recognize in real life. I have a friend with a 50 inch plasma and a 55 inch projection, and he always watches movies on the front projector, but not because of size. For the news, commercials and the business channel, who cares about the image. But while watching a plasma (or LCD), compare the image on the screen to what you see when you look around. No comparrison. Life isn't that "good". Then, during a movie from a good front projector, do the same: people look like people, shadows look real, and colors don't look like someone spilled the paint! Projected images, especially if technologies like Panasonic uses are employed, create the most realistic and natural representation of the real world. Front projection is the closest thing to film, and film is the closest thing to real life we have. Barry

As a former project owner. I experienced both the joy of watching a 100" hdtv picture but also the pain of owning a projector (setup, daylight viewing etc..)

I think everyone agree in term of just picture, plasma is the better choice as it offers signifcantly better pq with light on and slightly more convenient to setup/maintain - like i can just turn it on to watch half hr news.

The main advantage of the projector of course is screen size and price. But with the 1080p 60" plasmas now under 4k, do you guys think it's just a matter of time before the 70-80" comes down to the same price level? By then the gap between plasma vs projector in term of size/value would almost disappear.

I mean even now, i am beginning to lean towards just gettin a 60" plasma instead of a projector as the screen size isnt that big a difference anymore.

What do you guys think, will home theater projectors eventually become obsolete or only kept in the dedicated dark rooms?


You have to be kidding... plasma screens are small (unless you have $100K to spend) and the image looks too digitized and un-natural. Yes, the difficulties of setting up a projector system can be difficult but the reward is worth the effort.

You have to be kidding... plasma screens are small (unless you have $100K to spend) and the image looks too digitized and un-natural. Yes, the difficulties of setting up a projector system can be difficult but the reward is worth the effort.

I also think he must be fooling with us. Projectors are becoming the hot item and as every plasma owner realizes very quickly that they need bigger, and bigger must be at least 100 inches to create the movie feeling. They will all be hunting for front projectors. No hassle, either. Cost less too. I have a 150 inch screen, home made for $50.00, a $1500.00 HD FPJ, and $1000.00 worth of 7.1 carefully chosen audio equipment to back it up. It is first grade math to see I spent less than a quality 60 inch now, and WAY less than a 70 might/does cost. But more than that, the plasma picture is not realistic. When one separates the "wow" effect of plasma (I watch it every night in the bedroom) and settles into the natural look of FPJ, the battle is over. I have both, all 4 actually,(58"HD RPJ, 42"Plama, 37"LCD and I am on my 3rd FPJ. The movie room with the HD FPJ is the place to be. Just my opinion, but I have had home theaters for over 20 years and spend a lot of time on personal research, Barry.

I just bought a new TV. I never considered a front projector. I went with an LCD.

That's my kitchen TV. It has a 7" screen. It also has a built in egg timer. Even the highly praised JVC DLA-HD1 lacks an egg timer. There's no question for the kitchen an LCD flat screen is superior.

In my bedroom I have a 20" CRT TV. It has a built in VHS player. I have a number of very rare VHS tapes which I seldom watch but I still want to to be able to see every now and then. These tapes are like my hundreds of vinyl LPs which make me keep a turntable. I could convert everything I suppose to digital media but in my opinion that's crazy. Lots of LCDs and plasmas have built in DVDs but none as far as I know has a built in VHS deck.

In my den I have a DLP front projector. I also have some recliners, a big retroflective screen and light proof drapes. I don't watch TV in bed anymore - the recliners are more comfortable. I guess I'm a sort of recliner potatoe.

So should I buy a big flat screen plasma? I probably could afford a $1,500 set without too much trouble. That would get me about a 50" plasma or LCD at today's prices. It would be too big for the kitchen (and it would lack an egg timer). It would be too big for my bedroom furniture (and it would lack a built in VHS player). However in my den/HT it would be much, much too small. My projected image is currently 4.84 times bigger (110" vs. 50").

So what would I do with a plasma?

I think its clear that the new bigger, cheaper plasmas make ideal dining room TVs.

Okay - I am responding to the originator's first post without wading through all the other verbiage.

IMO
No comparison of any type of television to the magic of front projection.

We enjoy tv viewing on our 56in RP HD 1080p gadget but NO TV available today or in near future can compare to Front Projection for a WOW Home Theater experience. We start with a 120 inch image diagonal and then it gets bigger if it suits us.

Our front projector gives us a true Cinema experience while avoiding being elbow-to-elbow with the regular movie viewing cell phone talking rude and inconsiderate unwashed masses at the Commercial Theater!

Ya'll enjoy your TV - I'll take our BIG SCREEN!!!!

As a former project owner. I experienced both the joy of watching a 100" hdtv picture but also the pain of owning a projector (setup, daylight viewing etc..)

I think everyone agree in term of just picture, plasma is the better choice as it offers signifcantly better pq with light on and slightly more convenient to setup/maintain - like i can just turn it on to watch half hr news.

The main advantage of the projector of course is screen size and price. But with the 1080p 60" plasmas now under 4k, do you guys think it's just a matter of time before the 70-80" comes down to the same price level? By then the gap between plasma vs projector in term of size/value would almost disappear.

I mean even now, i am beginning to lean towards just gettin a 60" plasma instead of a projector as the screen size isnt that big a difference anymore.

What do you guys think, will home theater projectors eventually become obsolete or only kept in the dedicated dark rooms?

Sorry, but a 60" plasma is still just a "large" tv. It can't hold a candle to a 100"+ projector image as far as overall experience is concerned.

Sorry, but a 60" plasma is still just a "large" tv. It can't hold a candle to a 100"+ projector image as far as overall experience is concerned.

I agree.

plus when summer time comes and the kids what to watch movies outside while cooking hot dogs and making smores I would hate to drag out a big plasma.

we really do enjoy our summer movie nights.

the entire neighborhood comes over and watches the movies on our 20 foot screen.



Cheers
Murph:)

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5011/smallpicvd0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:) Outdoor theater kicks ass! Murph, you're not using your InFocus fot that setup, are you?

"The gap is narrowing, is there still a future for projectors?"

Bikes now come with disc brakes, and carbon fiber frames too, but I still think I will keep my car.

Was this honestly a serious thread?

Go from a 120 inch screen down to 60-70-80 even 100 at a ridiculous difference in price with no real difference in performance. Seems insane to me.

:) Outdoor theater kicks ass! Murph, you're not using your InFocus fot that setup, are you?

Spyder,
I used the IN72 last year with great results. (no inky blacks of course ):D
This year I will be using the Sp-7210 .( i hope it goes well)

My Main set up in the theater room is very user friendly.
You just unplug the wires then spin the Pj counter clock wise off the mount.
Inside I have a Labeled audio switch.
And I welded up a strong stand so all you do is drop the threaded tube in the outdoor mount and spin until tight.
I wired the outside with stereo speakers .( Wharfdales ).I also wired a box outside for plug and play for the video .For Bass you just open the slider face the Sub outside.
even the wife can do it by herself. ( no disrespect to the ladies).

cheers

Murph:)

Spyder,
I used the IN72 last year with great results. (no inky blacks of course ):D
This year I will be using the Sp-7210 .( i hope it goes well)

My Main set up in the theater room is very user friendly.
You just unplug the wires then spin the Pj counter clock wise off the mount.
Inside I have a Labeled audio switch.
And I welded up a strong stand so all you do is drop the threaded tube in the outdoor mount and spin until tight.
I wired the outside with stereo speakers .( Wharfdales ).I also wired a box outside for plug and play for the video .For Bass you just open the slider face the Sub outside.
even the wife can do it by herself. ( no disrespect to the ladies).

cheers

Murph:)

It will be interesting to hear your impressions on the SP7210 vs. IN72 on a 240" screen. :)

Even if I could get a 92" flat panel display for US$3000, I wouldn't be able to roll it up out of the doorway as with my projector's screen. But it wouldn't be a plasma display anyway, it would be an LCD.

What would be the power consumption be on a 100" plasma:eek: I'm sure that someone who could afford a plasma that large wouldn't care, but sheesh. They would have to be a power hog(picturing commercial)

As a fairly new AV enthusiast I tread carefully here but the best picture my untrained eyes have ever seen was on a 60 inch professionally calibrated Kuro Elite at a friends house. It was simply breathtaking. Although I can afford it, I crave size and I don't think they are going to make a 100 inch Kuro for $8,000 anytime soon - so i guess I will look for a front projector. My question is - is there a FP/screen setup out there that rivals or exceeds the pq of that Kuro? How much pq are we sacrificing by opting for sheer size -

As a fairly new AV enthusiast I tread carefully here but the best picture my untrained eyes have ever seen was on a 60 inch professionally calibrated Kuro Elite at a friends house. It was simply breathtaking. Although I can afford it, I crave size and I don't think they are going to make a 100 inch Kuro for $8,000 anytime soon - so i guess I will look for a front projector. My question is - is there a FP/screen setup out there that rivals or exceeds the pq of that Kuro? How much pq are we sacrificing by opting for sheer size -

While the Kuro is certainly a nice "little" TV, you can get a FP that will blow your mind for the same price.

A flat panel no matter how big will never completely displace projectors for a few reasons:

1) A flat screen does not look at all like a projected image, so it will never be like watching in a theater.
2) It won't be long before CIH takes over the dedicated theater realm, I doubt we'll ever see 2.35:1 flat screens!
3) There is just something "magical" about the projected image that flat screens cannot capture.

While the Kuro is certainly a nice "little" TV, you can get a FP that will blow your mind for the same price.

You can say that again. Scoll down on this link to the Infocus IN82 for results. http://www.highendpalace.com/HEP%20Projectors.htm

Here's 110 inches of eye candy.

You can say that again. Scoll down on this link to the Infocus IN82 for results. http://www.highendpalace.com/HEP%20Projectors.htm

Here's 110 inches of eye candy.

All I can say about those screenshots is, "Oh...my...gaw...!" :eek:

Sleek, sexy, and stunning...all in the same unit. I had my eye on the SP777 last year. The HD82 is just as gorgeous. It's like trying to decide between two Victoria's Secret models, both lying naked on your bed.

The Kuro, by comparison, is the girl from the Sears catalog. Still cute, but...

ok fellas, settle down :) i think most of you misunderstood. I am not saying replacing the 100+" screen in your theater room with a 60" plasma. Obviously noone would do that.

What i was asking is using projector as a everyday tv. For example i live in an apartment in the city, the place is decent sized but still an apartment. So there is no theater room. I had a projector with a 100" screen in the living room, yes the picture is jaw dropping especially the first time you see it. But there were tons of problem with it - You cant view it during the day. When friends came over you cant just turn it on to watch like a plasma tv, gotta shut off all the lights, make the room dark first etc.. and people who didnt want to watch tv now cant do anything else. Family member who just wants to turn it on to watch news or the weather for a little bit, now are told they need to leave it on for 1 hr before shuttin it down again to protect the bulb.

Everyone except me was complaining, but i loved the picture too much to care.

All i was saying is now that 60" plasma are cheap enough, maybe the difference of a 100" vs 60" isnt big enough to warrent all the additional headachs of owning a projector.

Again if you have a theater room, none of this applies, of course you going to have a projector in there not a plasma..

Just get a plasma AND a pj then!

All i was saying is now that 60" plasma are cheap enough, maybe the difference of a 100" vs 60" isnt big enough to warrent all the additional headachs of owning a projector.

Sure, but the increased size of picture is 90-95% of the reason to get a projector in the first place. A 100" diagonal is significantly larger than 60".

And has been mentioned, a 100" diagonal plasma would have its own set of "headaches" for most people.

All i was saying is now that 60" plasma are cheap enough, maybe the difference of a 100" vs 60" isnt big enough to warrent all the additional headachs of owning a projector.


whatever floats your boat, but the reason most of us are in this forum is because 60" simply is NOT big enough. Dedicated room or not. I'm sure lots of folks would agree with you though, just not in this forum ;)

I know there are at least a few in here who have a projector screen that drops down in front of their bigscreen TV, that sounds like the best solution for you. 60" plasma in the day with other stuff going on, 100" projector for movies.

For me, my projector is in a dedicated room with no other TV, but it doubles as our formal family room so having a big ass TV on the wall full time would not be aesthetically acceptable. The projector and retracted screen (covered by a nice valance) blend well enough to get away with, from a WAF perspective.

I have 4 plasma/LCD's of various size. They are nice for watching TV but when it comes to movies or gaming it's projection all the way. I had some friends over to play call of duty 4. We had four players and the screen was split 4 ways. We each essentially had our own 50" screen to work with. It was great. Last time I did this on my 50" plasma and everything was too small to see. I only spent $800 on my Mits HC1500 and I am still blown away by what the $800 bought me as far as picture quality. I know I'm happy.

Murph,

We are just down I-95 from you, here in Delaware, and are planning a pig pickin this summer, ya more than welcome to come (and dont forget the Setup!) I wonder if the screen would double for a Trampoline? that setup is just WAY too Cool!

Rick Delaware

Just get a plasma AND a pj then!

That's one of my two options. I had the toshiba MT-something 720p projector. But as some of you remember, it had a defect that blew the bulbs every month or so. So after 3 bulbs replacement and without tv in the living room during xmas+new year, i finally caved in to family pressure - returned the projector and got a 42" plasma instead.

Now i need to decide either 1) put the 42" plasma in the bedroom and get a 60" 1080p for the living room. 2) wall mount the 42" then get a 1080p projector with a pull down screen in front of the plasma.

Price is about the same, but obviously 2) is a lot more work, not to mention dealing with the families due to the bad experience they had with the toshiba projector.

How do you exactly install a pull down screen though? the motorized ones are definitly out of the questions because i dont have a power outlet up there. For the manual pulldown ones, how do you reach that high to pull it? also do you need to make a hole on the ceiling to put the screen in? as i live in an apt the ceiling is pretty much concrete, so cant really drill much...

here' are 2 pics i dug up of my layout with the old projector setup. How do you mount the pull down screen? Is there a way to do it from the side instead of ceiling?

http://207.126.49.104/image/condo/condo3.jpg

http://happyreward.com/images/condo2.jpg

That looks great and I'd hate to see you have to tear it down. Why not try getting a more reliable projector? Or one with a good warranty. Epson comes to mind as being fairly reliable and also having great support should a problem arise.

And pull-down screens can be wall mounted or ceiling mounted - their brackets work both ways. An electric screen is sexy, but not needed.

Manual pull-down screens also come with a metal loop on the bottom bar and have a supplied lanyard which can be attached to pull the screen down. I opted for a metal "pull-down rod" (about $15 from Da-Lite) which I can use to reach the metal loop (the lanyard is ugly IMHO). The rod sits in the corner, ready for use when needed.

NOTE: I use a 32" LCD HDTV set for my regular (24/7) TV watching (the maximum size that fits with the bookshelf set that it sits on). When I turn on my PJ, it stays on for at least 4 hours. I watch TV on it as well as DVD movies. Good, quality, HD programs look very good on a 106" screen (Discovery HD Theater, Smithsonian Channel, etc.). IMHO any flat panel set larger than around 42" is a waste of money for most TV programming - I'd rather put the extra money into a better PJ and a better (100"+) screen (I can't go any bigger than about 128").

PS - I also have the Toshiba MT700 PJ with the bad lamp/ballast design. It's the only bad PJ I've owned (out of 5). My next PJ upgrade will be a 1080p one, most likely the new Epson Home Cinema 1080UB (with the money I saved by not buying a 50" flat panel TV :D).

Im really up in the air I have a Hc3000 with a little over 1000 hours that still looks really great. But I have seen the benq 5000 which is getting great reviews for a little over 2 grand. I figure I could get maybe 700 for my hc3000 and it would only cost me a little over a grand to upgrade to 1080p. The problem is family simply wants a tv, they like being able to have it on at all times, they are familiar with it, they dont have to worry about the bulb they can watch in daytime. I really dont know what to do.

When friends came over you cant just turn it on to watch like a plasma tv, gotta shut off all the lights, make the room dark first etc.. and people who didnt want to watch tv now cant do anything else.

It's a very rare person who can do something else when a TV is on in the room.

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

I've been at the HT craze since the mid 80's and I love my rear projector for 2 main reasons...

All A/V equipment becomes obsolete eventually.. would you rather deal with the headache of upgrading a 100" plasma TV or a toaster sized projector? I've had my share of behemoth, tube and RPTV's I've had to uninstall and get rid of and it's no fun..

...and to those that have never watched a movie on a rear projector system, there's just some quality about it that makes you feel like you are actually at a movie theater.. it's a feeling I enjoy and I've never been able to duplicate watching it on a front facing display..

--mike

Murph,

ya more than welcome to come (and dont forget the Setup!) I wonder if the screen would double for a Trampoline? that setup is just WAY too Cool!

Rick Delaware

Rett
I take it you like my Redneck backyard screen.:)

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3540/smallscreenph2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Delaware
Hmm,, I like Pig!!!!!:D

Thanks for the invite I,ll keep it in mind.

If I need to pass .

grab A 9x12 0r 12X15 ( what ever size you like ) canvas drop cloth from home depot .
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4889/12x15dropclothjl6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
also A Grommet punch kit ( sold at most hardware stores )
http://www.amazon.com/Punch-Grommets-Leatherworking-Tent-Fabric/dp/B000RB3ZFY
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3310/punchkitzw4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Some pvc pipe and connectors , glue ect.
regular nylon rope
or you can use a small container of mini Bungee cords from Wally world ,makes set up and brake down fast and easy.


Not all that hard to build .

Just lay out canvas on ground.
Insert grommets evenly around entire bottom of canvas.
Lay PVC around canvas.( and middle as well ) cut PVC evenly to length
( sides the same ,top/bottom same, middle's same.)
add a extra foot from your measured Pvc lengths so the bungee's have room to tighten up the canvas around your frame.
glue what you can but keep in mind the size for storage of your unit.
I made mine so it was able to come apart in 8 pieces.
Once all pieces are cut and glues pull the canvas over frame and rope or bungee to frame ,and get some one to help raise your screen ( if its windy I would attach some rope to the top and anchor in ground.

I was going to buy the blow up kind but it wasn't big enough and kind of loud from the fan.

this redneck screen will cost around $100 .
But WELL worth it if you like outdoor movies .

cheers

Murph:)

I guess I am of the opposite view: I wonder if there is a future for flat screen TVs as a theater experience since 1080P PJs are coming way down in price. I also think Plasmas are going to diminish in popularity as LCDs become cheaper. Personally, I don't like the weight and the strong SDE of a Plasma. LCDs look better to me.
I haven't read all of the responses. But here are my thoughts:

I think that people who don't have a dark room for a PJ are in a difficult position. Our HT is in a 100% light controllable room - no windows. We sit 10' (my wife likes it a little closer than me) from a 100" screen. The effect is Imax-like - we love it! We've had an HD70 for over a year now and brfore that we had an Infocus X1 for 3.5 years.

We use a 32" LCD in the bedroom and a small (20") LCD on the coffee table in the Living room. We tend to watch movies downstairs in the HT. In the LR we might watch the news or an occasional movie. Our LR has a beautiful view outside a wall of windows so we use the LR for company and music mostly. But, it is nice at Christmastime to watch a Christmas movie with a snowy scene outside and a fire in the fireplace. :D

...and to those that have never watched a movie on a rear projector system, there's just some quality about it that makes you feel like you are actually at a movie theater.. it's a feeling I enjoy and I've never been able to duplicate watching it on a front facing display..

--mike

I have had the same thought. We had an RPTV box in our HT (Living Room) for 12 years. I really liked its PQ. There is something magical about the image that looks like a projected image but with no light path. It didn't have that electronic look of a big tube TV. And the lenticular screen added its own good texture to the picture. However, I got really tired of the gigantic box. I know RPTVs are lighter and thinner now but they are still way too big, IMO.

I would like to have a home theater that used an adjacent room (or large closet) as an RPTV. The screen would be expensive as I still want a 100" screen but I think the image would be great. And the room wouldn't have to be nearly as dark to get a good image. (One of the nice things about RPTV.)

Another HT idea I would like to pursue someday is to have a front projector enclosed in a small room behind the viewing room. The total silence would be nice and having all the gear out of sight would be good as well.

ok fellas, settle down :) i think most of you misunderstood. I am not saying replacing the 100+" screen in your theater room with a 60" plasma. Obviously noone would do that.

What i was asking is using projector as a everyday tv. For example i live in an apartment in the city, the place is decent sized but still an apartment. So there is no theater room. I had a projector with a 100" screen in the living room, yes the picture is jaw dropping especially the first time you see it. But there were tons of problem with it - You cant view it during the day. When friends came over you cant just turn it on to watch like a plasma tv, gotta shut off all the lights, make the room dark first etc.. and people who didnt want to watch tv now cant do anything else. Family member who just wants to turn it on to watch news or the weather for a little bit, now are told they need to leave it on for 1 hr before shuttin it down again to protect the bulb.

Everyone except me was complaining, but i loved the picture too much to care.

All i was saying is now that 60" plasma are cheap enough, maybe the difference of a 100" vs 60" isnt big enough to warrent all the additional headachs of owning a projector.

Again if you have a theater room, none of this applies, of course you going to have a projector in there not a plasma..

I too live in an apartment in the city. Our Panny 700 is our primary display, and it's in the living room. The only time it's ever a problem watching is during the day on weekends, and even then we can close the blinds or dial down the image size from 110" down to 65" or so to pump up the brightness. But other than that we don't turn off all the lights...unless we're watching a movie and want the theater effect. Granted, you can't have the place ablaze with light, but a little doesn't bother us at all. True, we don't turn it on if we want to watch for 5 minutes, but with the internet who really does that anymore? Sure, if a 60" plasma was $1000 I'd probably pick one up...but even then it would probably still go in the bedroom. It's still way too small for our main viewing display. I've said it before and I'll say it again...I wouldn't trade my projector for anything less than the 103" panny plasma. But feel free to ask me again when they come out with an 80" model ;)

PS...You do realize that a 100" screen is still 178% larger (total viewing area) than a 60" right?

I can get rid of the people, control the ambient light (I only watch at night anyway) and all the other stuff - I just wanna know - is the image projected by a quality projector just as good or better than the best plasma (Kuro elite from what i have seen). I don't think anyone is amswering the question - people keep saying the projector's image is "jaw-dropping, fantastic, will blow you away" - but I would like to know is that jaw-dropping image as good as or better than the flat-panel jaw-dropping image. I am gonna buy a projector anyway because size is more important to me but it would give me great comfort if I could get a projector (under $10,000) that is gonna give me a superior image. I am not trying to be a thorn, just obssessed with finding this out.

I too live in an apartment in the city. Our Panny 700 is our primary display, and it's in the living room. The only time it's ever a problem watching is during the day on weekends, and even then we can close the blinds or dial down the image size from 110" down to 65" or so to pump up the brightness. But other than that we don't turn off all the lights...unless we're watching a movie and want the theater effect. Granted, you can't have the place ablaze with light, but a little doesn't bother us at all. True, we don't turn it on if we want to watch for 5 minutes, but with the internet who really does that anymore? Sure, if a 60" plasma was $1000 I'd probably pick one up...but even then it would probably still go in the bedroom. It's still way too small for our main viewing display. I've said it before and I'll say it again...I wouldn't trade my projector for anything less than the 103" panny plasma. But feel free to ask me again when they come out with an 80" model ;)

PS...You do realize that a 100" screen is still 178% larger (total viewing area) than a 60" right?


So what you are saying is if the 103" plasma was affordable - you think it would have a superior image than a quality projector projecting on a 103" screen?

I too live in an apartment in the city. Our Panny 700 is our primary display, and it's in the living room. The only time it's ever a problem watching is during the day on weekends, and even then we can close the blinds or dial down the image size from 110" down to 65" or so to pump up the brightness. But other than that we don't turn off all the lights...unless we're watching a movie and want the theater effect. Granted, you can't have the place ablaze with light, but a little doesn't bother us at all. True, we don't turn it on if we want to watch for 5 minutes, but with the internet who really does that anymore? Sure, if a 60" plasma was $1000 I'd probably pick one up...but even then it would probably still go in the bedroom. It's still way too small for our main viewing display. I've said it before and I'll say it again...I wouldn't trade my projector for anything less than the 103" panny plasma. But feel free to ask me again when they come out with an 80" model ;)

PS...You do realize that a 100" screen is still 178% larger (total viewing area) than a 60" right?


So what you are saying is if the 103" plasma was affordable - you think it would have a superior image than a quality projector projecting on a 103" screen?

The future may produce "roll up" screens that will displace projectors - but lets not talk about what might show up 25 years from now.

The here and now would be either an LCD or Plasma at 120" and up to replace front projectors. As some have mentioned size is a problem. For one, it will be very hard to get a 120" plasma in your house, let alone move it from room to room.

Will your studs hold a 120" plasma? Considering Panasonic's 103" plasma weighs 474 lbs and 120" is 50% larger than a 103" plasma - you're looking at a product that weighs over 700 lbs. Does anyone know if a 2x4 wood framed house could support 700lbs?

Just imagine the shipping costs - even if it was already at Best Buy. Less than $300 would be a bargain.

Now, you're going to need a plasma mount - considering the one's out today that can support 200lbs are in the $200 and up range, one is looking at around $400 for one massive enough to hold a 120" plasma.

So without even paying for the plasma yet, I couldn't imagine getting it into your house and having the mount would cost much less than $700. For $700 today I can get a 15 lb projector - table mount it on a $100 screen and be done. Moving it from room to room with be significantly less challenging.

I predict by the time they mass produce 120" plasma's, 1080p projectors will be under $1k. And for $4k, a 1080p projector that is bright enough for a 200" screen will be available.

So without even buying the plasma - the wall mount and the shipping

All i was saying is now that 60" plasma are cheap enough, maybe the difference of a 100" vs 60" isnt big enough to warrent all the additional headachs of owning a projector.A 100" screen is has 277% more surface than a 60" screen. If that isn't enough to warrant the 100", I don't know what would be.

A 100" screen is has 277% more surface than a 60" screen. If that isn't enough to warrant the 100", I don't know what would be.

Wouldn't picture quality be a deciding factor for some people?

Wouldn't picture quality be a deciding factor for some people?

wmassie,

You've obviously been reading all the hype on the Kuro, and, from your posts, we might conclude that you may have seen one in person, as you seem to be using it as an absolute on the sliding scale of PQ. If the Kuro looks that great to you and you can live with an itty-bitty image (compared to one you can get with a PJ) then you should absolutely go with it.

Personally, I think the Kuro is a fine machine...but only for gaming and some TV, but not at all for movies. As others have said, no matter how large plasma gets, it's just not the same. For me, nothing reproduces "the look and feel" of film like a DLP projector can at 100" or more. I can't stand the "processed" look of plasma/LCD. To me, extra resolution means nothing if looking at the image reminds me of one of those "find the boat/cross your eyes" pictures. The (almost tactile) feel of the technology used is as much, if not more, a part of PQ as resolution or contrast.

That said, you need the proper room to achieve good results. If you live in a solarium and can't survive without getting a tan indoors, then a PJ isn't for you. If you've got a bit of LeStat in you, it's the only way to go. If you can sit down and actually watch the content on the screen, go with a projector. If you and your guests have an insatiable need to play tiddlywinks while a movie is on, go with a TV.

Pitting the two types of displays directly against each other is folly, as the mitigating factors involved play a much larger role than the contenders themselves. Only you can decide what's best for you based upon these variables.

wmassie,

You've obviously been reading all the hype on the Kuro, and, from your posts, we might conclude that you may have seen one in person, as you seem to be using it as an absolute on the sliding scale of PQ. If the Kuro looks that great to you and you can live with an itty-bitty image (compared to one you can get with a PJ) then you should absolutely go with it.

Personally, I think the Kuro is a fine machine...but only for gaming and some TV, but not at all for movies. As others have said, no matter how large plasma gets, it's just not the same. For me, nothing reproduces "the look and feel" of film like a DLP projector can at 100" or more. I can't stand the "processed" look of plasma/LCD. To me, extra resolution means nothing if looking at the image reminds me of one of those "find the boat/cross your eyes" pictures. The (almost tactile) feel of the technology used is as much, if not more, a part of PQ as resolution or contrast.

That said, you need the proper room to achieve good results. If you live in a solarium and can't survive without getting a tan indoors, then a PJ isn't for you. If you've got a bit of LeStat in you, it's the only way to go. If you can sit down and actually watch the content on the screen, go with a projector. If you and your guests have an insatiable need to play tiddlywinks while a movie is on, go with a TV.

Pitting the two types of displays directly against each other is folly, as the mitigating factors involved play a much larger role than the contenders themselves. Only you can decide what's best for you based upon these variables.


Ok forget about the Kuro. I did see one - it did look awesome to my untrained eyes but I will never buy another flat panel because I desire large images (92" or greater). What I hear you saying is that comparing projectors to flat panels is like comparing apples to oranges. What I am saying is that at some point someone must have compared a professionally calibrated projector/screen setup in ideal an ideal viewing environment with a professionally calibrated flat panel in its ideal viewing conditions and say:

1) this projector set-up is the reference for projectors
and
2) this flat panel is the reference for flat panels

or this (projector or flat panel) is the reference for image quality.

What I am hearing is there is no gold standard. I am new to the AV hobby so I may not be making sense but I just want to know if the answer is out there and buddy of mine said the AVS forum has the most knowledgeable people on the planet - so I ask - respectfully.

Ok forget about the Kuro. I did see one - it did look awesome to my untrained eyes but I will never buy another flat panel because I desire large images (92" or greater). What I hear you saying is that comparing projectors to flat panels is like comparing apples to oranges. What I am saying is that at some point someone must have compared a professionally calibrated projector/screen setup in ideal an ideal viewing environment with a professionally calibrated flat panel in its ideal viewing conditions and say:

1) this projector set-up is the reference for projectors
and
2) this flat panel is the reference for flat panels

or this (projector or flat panel) is the reference for image quality.

What I am hearing is there is no gold standard. I am new to the AV hobby so I may not be making sense but I just want to know if the answer is out there and buddy of mine said the AVS forum has the most knowledgeable people on the planet - so I ask - respectfully.
Not quite sure what you mean by no gold standard - so much has to do with your preferences. For example, I personally have an AT screen because I want the sound to emanate from behind the screen - but others would rather get a high gain screen. It's a personal preference. Of course this option isn't available in flat panel televisions.

Here's something you'll never see - a 60" Stewart Firehawk screen mated to a JVC RS2 projector. My best guestimate would be that the JVC could put out so many lumens for such a small image that it would blow away any plasma on the market. Is that the gold standard you're looking for?

Ok forget about the Kuro. I did see one - it did look awesome to my untrained eyes but I will never buy another flat panel because I desire large images (92" or greater). What I hear you saying is that comparing projectors to flat panels is like comparing apples to oranges. What I am saying is that at some point someone must have compared a professionally calibrated projector/screen setup in ideal an ideal viewing environment with a professionally calibrated flat panel in its ideal viewing conditions and say:

1) this projector set-up is the reference for projectors
and
2) this flat panel is the reference for flat panels

or this (projector or flat panel) is the reference for image quality.

What I am hearing is there is no gold standard. I am new to the AV hobby so I may not be making sense but I just want to know if the answer is out there and buddy of mine said the AVS forum has the most knowledgeable people on the planet - so I ask - respectfully.

I was about to (and sort of did) say the same thing that SimpleTheater posted above. The variables involved in the room and personal preference play such a large role in choice that nobody on Earth can say, "There can be only one!" ala Highlander.

Some people make sacrifices at the altar of resolution. Some prefer contrast above all. Some like DLP's real-world look and feel. Some need an LCD light cannon. Some go 90", some 200". Some...well, you get the point.

In the world of PJs, the choices are plentiful, the differences wide, and the decision can be rather confusing...even to AVS junkies. With a conventional TV, it's much easier to define the lead horse, but even then, the race is full of potential winners.

Personally, I can't even watch a "regular" TV at all anymore without a bit of bile coming up.

From a guy who owns 4 plasma/LCD TV's in his house happily mounted on the wall I must say nothing brings me more joy than my projector and 120 inch screen. I love projectors so much, it's made my enjoyment of movies go up 100%. I never would have thought my personality would ever be interested in buying crap like Blue Ray players and HDMI receivers. Now I am hooked, I owe it all to my projector.

From a guy who owns 4 plasma/LCD TV's in his house happily mounted on the wall I must say nothing brings me more joy than my projector and 120 inch screen. I love projectors so much, it's made my enjoyment of movies go up 100%. I never would have thought my personality would ever be interested in buying crap like Blue Ray players and HDMI receivers. Now I am hooked, I owe it all to my projector.

Maybe I am asking the wrong question and I apologize having you guys put up with me but since being bitten by the AV bug (2 years ago) I have looked far and wide, asked many people (including a couple of ISF calibrators) "what is the best image you ever saw (either a projector or flat-panel)" and could never get a definitive answer-never. I don't know where else to look but this obsession with finding the "answer" is driving me nuts. I'll spend thousands of dollars buying a projector, getting it calibrated and putting it in the "ideal" environment and I'm sure I will enjoy it - but the question "is this the best image I can get?" will always be in the back of my head. I guess I am going insane.

I have looked far and wide, asked many people (including a couple of ISF calibrators) "what is the best image you ever saw (either a projector or flat-panel)" and could never get a definitive answer-never.
Best image I ever saw, bar none (and it wasn't even freakin' close) was the Sony CRT 34 XBR.

Of course I don't own one, because 34" is so darn small, but nothing has ever come close.

I don't know where else to look but this obsession with finding the "answer" is driving me nuts. I'll spend thousands of dollars buying a projector, getting it calibrated and putting it in the "ideal" environment and I'm sure I will enjoy it - but the question "is this the best image I can get?" will always be in the back of my head. I guess I am going insane.Even if you bought the "best image possible", something would come out tomorrow that was better. Worse yet, 2 years later something will be better and significantly cheaper.

You remind me of some friends who used to ask - "What is the best computer?" Then answer is the same for computers as display devices - "First determine your budget, then what you need it to do. Until then the conversation is pointless." In the case of flat-panels they just can't get big enough (excluding those never seen in store 100" monsters) to achieve a cinematic experience. If you want a home theater, then you have started on the quest for screen (AT or not) and which projector. Until you come up with a budget, the combinations are endless.

"Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises? "

Yes indeed. So sad. I would think a $12,000 buget (projector and screen) would get me close.

I meant budget. No excuse for mispelling. My apologies to the group

From a guy who owns 4 plasma/LCD TV's in his house happily mounted on the wall I must say nothing brings me more joy than my projector and 120 inch screen. I love projectors so much, it's made my enjoyment of movies go up 100%. I never would have thought my personality would ever be interested in buying crap like Blue Ray players and HDMI receivers. Now I am hooked, I owe it all to my projector.

That quote above is exactly what the projector has done in my home. I have never cared about movies until now. I didn't have the flat panel - CRT RPTV. Which was 'good enough' until I stumbled upon AVS and saw the pictures of what people have done. I've not posted mine, since it is pedestrian compared to many here, but it wows everyone that comes over (that is an obvious benefit of projectors).

"Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises? "

Yes indeed. So sad. I would think a $12,000 buget (projector and screen) would get me close.The sad fact is that some people spent over $50k on projector/screen combinations back in the early 1990's and now have to watch people spending $3k and blowing there stuff out of the water.

Where in a tech hobby, everything will continue to get better and cheaper. Even if you did find the holy grail today it won't do 3D.

Maybe I am asking the wrong question and I apologize having you guys put up with me but since being bitten by the AV bug (2 years ago) I have looked far and wide, asked many people (including a couple of ISF calibrators) "what is the best image you ever saw (either a projector or flat-panel)" and could never get a definitive answer-never. I don't know where else to look but this obsession with finding the "answer" is driving me nuts. I'll spend thousands of dollars buying a projector, getting it calibrated and putting it in the "ideal" environment and I'm sure I will enjoy it - but the question "is this the best image I can get?" will always be in the back of my head. I guess I am going insane.

What everyone else has already said. There is no "best" out there, given such a broad scope. There is only "best for you" and nothing more with those parameters in mind. As with SimpleTheater, I also caught a few moments of a Sony XBR CRT (can't recall the model) that obliterated everything I've ever laid eyes on in reagrd to PQ. But...it was a 4:3 native TV, it weighed about a zillion pounds, it required the purchase of a $400 stand to look decent and put it at eye level, etc. Plus, it was SMALL by today's standards.

If you just wait and wonder what's the best, you'll have the best...of nothing.

What's the absolute gold standard flavor of ice cream? That question can't be answered in absolute terms because it is so subjective. Same deal here and that's why you can't get solid answers.

Rett
I take it you like my Redneck backyard screen.:)

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3540/smallscreenph2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Delaware
Hmm,, I like Pig!!!!!:D

Thanks for the invite I,ll keep it in mind.

If I need to pass .

grab A 9x12 0r 12X15 ( what ever size you like ) canvas drop cloth from home depot .
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4889/12x15dropclothjl6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
also A Grommet punch kit ( sold at most hardware stores )
http://www.amazon.com/Punch-Grommets-Leatherworking-Tent-Fabric/dp/B000RB3ZFY
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3310/punchkitzw4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Some pvc pipe and connectors , glue ect.
regular nylon rope
or you can use a small container of mini Bungee cords from Wally world ,makes set up and brake down fast and easy.


Not all that hard to build .

Just lay out canvas on ground.
Insert grommets evenly around entire bottom of canvas.
Lay PVC around canvas.( and middle as well ) cut PVC evenly to length
( sides the same ,top/bottom same, middle's same.)
add a extra foot from your measured Pvc lengths so the bungee's have room to tighten up the canvas around your frame.
glue what you can but keep in mind the size for storage of your unit.
I made mine so it was able to come apart in 8 pieces.
Once all pieces are cut and glues pull the canvas over frame and rope or bungee to frame ,and get some one to help raise your screen ( if its windy I would attach some rope to the top and anchor in ground.

I was going to buy the blow up kind but it wasn't big enough and kind of loud from the fan.

this redneck screen will cost around $100 .
But WELL worth it if you like outdoor movies .

cheers

Murph:)

I love it . what do you illuminate it with?

It's all about the application. Do you get reference sound from your ipod/ipod clone? Heck no. But for convenient on-the-go musiic, it's fine.

For watching TV news, my 12" tube TV in the kitchen does the job just fine. I could upgrade to a small sleek LCD but it's hardly worth the cost. For watching American Idol and assorted TV programming, I like my old 65" CRT RPTV. If I had dough to spare, I'd upgrade to a good 60" plasma. For watching movies, or special events like Superbowl and the Oscars, I fire up my $2700 PJ on a DIY 135" screen and have a good time.

There's no substitute for size. A 60" Kuro may have better blacks and contrast, but it's still a TV. I don't think we will ever see an affordable 80" plasma, not because it's technically impossible -- it just won't make sense economically because by that time, some cooler breakthrough technology like OLED or flexible rolled up display will have supplanted plasma. Of course by that time, we may have LED/laser front projector with 20,000 hrs life and 4000 lumens and we'll be having the same discussion as we have now. Those OLEDs sure look nice but they're only 80". My wall is 200" across! What do I do with all that space?

I love it . what do you illuminate it with?

Murph has an IN72 and a SP7210 that he uses for his outdoor theater.

(Just in case he doesn't show up here for a while, I thought I'd stick my big nose ina nd answer for him. ;))

My only question to Murph is how does he keep the insects that will swarm all over it (due to it's bright light) from being sucked into the fans intake? He'll have bug guts splattered all over the inside of his pj. :D

...plus when summer time comes and the kids what to watch movies outside while cooking hot dogs and making smores I would hate to drag out a big plasma.


You must be a moth's best friend when you turn a light canon towards that screen!! Seriously, how are the bugs?

You must be a moth's best friend when you turn a light canon towards that screen!! Seriously, how are the bugs?

mlang46,,, spyder is correct !!!:D
I used A IN72 last year But this year I will be using A Sp7210.

orion456 & Smithfarmer Actually the bugs Are not a problem ,With the screen or Getting sucked up in my Projector ( it's under warranty ) so no worries.:D

I will snap some pIcs when the screen is in action this spring .
The PQ is actually Pretty good.:eek:

cheers

Murph:)

The future "is" front projection. After watching a 120" screen for a couple days everything else just seem like "toys"...:) I could never go back to watching anything under 100" to 140" ...:D

Murph,

Sounds like a great idea, especially for the kids.

I guess having an outdoor theater depends an awful lot on where you live and what time of the year it is that you want to use it. The summers are simply way too hot and humid in South Florida. Usually everyone wants to be inside where the AC keeps you nice and cool.

Winters here are a different story though with temps at night averaging in the mid 60's from Nov. thru March. My 7210 is staying inside the house but I could see breaking out the 4805 for an outdoor theater in our mild winter months. I'd still build a screened enclosure for it. There are plenty of bugs down here and they love the bright lights at night. The 4805 may be old but it still works great and I wouldn't want any bug guts getting inside and mucking up my backup pj. ;)


Enjoy your summer theater! :)

The future "is" front projection. After watching a 120" screen for a couple days everything else just seem like "toys"...:) I could never go back to watching anything under 100" to 140" ...:D

Yeah, the coolness, wow factor, space saving, and low cost of using front projector makes everything else almost irrelevant. Once the technology improves and people catch on (this is the key here), the question will be....is there a future for anything else?

I like my 49 by 115 inch screen but it will never have an image with the resolution and intra scene contrast of large plasma display. this is simply because you are projecting the image of a small reflective chip through a lens with a limited resolution.

One day within 10 years, I will replace my projector with a 49 by 115 inch oled panel which will be as thin as my projection screen and that will be the end of projectors.

One day within 10 years, I will replace my projector with a 49 by 115 inch oled panel which will be as thin as my projection screen and that will be the end of projectors.
Lets not forget, plasma hit the streets at 42" ten years ago in 1998.

Sony just unveiled an 11" OLED display at $2,500 - if they announce a 26" display within a year it will be a huge advancement and I truly doubt it will happen within 18 months.

By the time they get to the size you're talking about - and a price anywhere near a front projector - twenty years would be more like it, IMO.

Okay - lot of posts in this thread and I won't begin to read them all.

IMO - even a 73in diagonal tv or whatever type and size just CAN'T compete with a front projection system with minimum of 120inch diagonal in a properly set up Home Theater room.

We have never had problems with simple use of our projector. It was and is simple to control ambient light and, again, NO tv can compete with a front projection system for Home Theater.
goodluck

almost every other post is " i love my 120" screen", "i'll never go back to less than 14' screen", " i love my 2 mile wide screen".. so i have to wonder

since a 60" screen at 8 ft is exactly the same apparent size as a 120" screen at 16', what's the difference? Movie theatre screens are only larger so that more people can sit in front of them. Do most people have 3 or more watching at once? or do you just like to have an image that completely fills your field of view? if thats the case, why do studios and professionals recommend a viewing angle of about 23-40 degrees? are all the "big screen" lovers sitting closer?

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

DragonSixGolf,

While you are correct about the apparent size based on viewing angle with different screen sizes and seating distances, there is a HUGE difference in perception of size and scale when watching a smaller screen from short distance vs. a larger screen from a longer distance.

In our theatre, we sit about 13' from a 165" screen, resulting in a viewing angle of about 50deg., similar to about 1/3rd back in a modern stadium seating movie theatre. When we do occasinally go out for a movie, and sit in the middle row, the screen looks bigger (to me at least ) than ours at home even though the viewing angle is smaller.

Jonathan

Okay - lot of posts in this thread and I won't begin to read them all.

IMO - even a 73in diagonal tv or whatever type and size just CAN'T compete with a front projection system with minimum of 120inch diagonal in a properly set up Home Theater room.

We have never had problems with simple use of our projector. It was and is simple to control ambient light and, again, NO tv can compete with a front projection system for Home Theater.
goodluck

Can't compete in size but not picture quality right?

since a 60" screen at 8 ft is exactly the same apparent size as a 120" screen at 16', what's the difference?

I'm currently looking at my 19" computer monitor at 6" and it is so big I can't imagine needing anything larger. :)

Seriously, to say 60" at 8 ft is the same as 120" at 16 ft is wrong. A 120" screen has 440% more surface area than a 60" screen.

Back to the 60" screen: a 60" 16:9 screen is 52.3 inches wide. The average person will (including their arms) requires 30" of space to sit comfortably. Adding just one other person to the room and you have each person's direct vision located at the edge of the screen. Add a third person and the two people sitting on the outside are now looking directly at the frame of the television, not the picture.

Movie theatre screens are only larger so that more people can sit in front of them. Do most people have 3 or more watching at once? or do you just like to have an image that completely fills your field of view? if thats the case, why do studios and professionals recommend a viewing angle of about 23-40 degrees? are all the "big screen" lovers sitting closer?
THX recommends a viewing angle between 26º - 36º, which requires your seets be no closer than 7 ft and no further than 9 ft from the 60" tv. It is not possible to have two rows of seating with a 60" screen and stay within rec'd distances. Yet to deal with the problem mentioned above, you would need two rows with two seats per row to allow three people to watch a movie and stay within the borders of the television.

A 120" screen allows for seating distances between 13' to 19'. The width of a 120" screen (16x9) is 104" - three people could sit side by side and all be within the frame of the screen.

Normally I have three to five people to watch a movie or sporting event. This January I had people sitting on the steps and a couple kids using bean bags during the NFL playoffs as i attempted to squish 12 people in the room.

Can't compete in size but not picture quality right?

Again with the PQ. Please, wmassie, tell us what YOU have to work with. Specifics are needed, such as, but not limited to; room size, lighting controls, seating distance, budget, number of viewers/players, paint colors, etc. The more specific you can be, the better.

Only then are you going to get an informed answer.

I am new to front projection. I have now had my Mitsu HC4900 (1080p) setup exactly one week on a 100" screen. After some tweaking and calibration there is simply no going back to a smaller screen for me. I was coming from a 56" Samsung DLP (720p native) and can definitely tell a difference with 1080p sources (HD DVD/Blu-Ray) on the 100" screen from 11-12ft away. I (well, mostly my wife) love the convenience of being able to raise the screen into the ceiling. The PJ is in a light controlled room and even with some ambient lighting in the middle of the day the PQ is outstanding. And you just cannot beat the price. I was looking at $3-5K Plasma and LCD HDTV's in the 50-60" price range (really wanted something bigger than 60") and finally decided on a front projector @ $1399. I am hooked on front projectors now. Nearly everyone who has seen my setup is now considering a front projector and Blu-Ray.

>Seriously, to say 60" at 8 ft is the same as 120" at 16 ft is wrong. A 120" screen has 440% more surface area than a 60" screen.< ???

Using simple geometry, the apparent size is exactly the same. Yes, i realise a bigger screen is bigger (i.e. more surface area). My point was in a darkened theatre where you can't actually tell the distance to the screen, a screen twice as large but twice as far away appears exactly the same width.
One reason for a physically larger screen is to fit more viewers near the center of the viewing cone.
Another reason is a preference for 50 deg. FOV like sitting in the front of a movie theatre.This is about 1 screen width seating distance.
This is getting a bit offtopic, but I was just curious as to why a larger screen was better if it didnt appear to be. I suspect just knowing the sceen is massive plays some role in the "theatre experience" like this quote from a popular vendor here.

>If you want to put real "theater" in your home theater, the projector and movie screen approach delivers it. RPTVs are just big televisions.<

or this:
There is a mania among home theater fans to quest after the biggest screens possible, regardless of whether they fit into a domicile's décor or provide a more pleasing image to the average viewer's eye. Fortunately, these are boom days for the “bigger is better” crowd, which wants to leap over the constraints of flatpanel displays directly into a home theater projection system because as technologies with greater image density come onto the scene, much of yesterday's “new” is becoming today's “old.”

If that is a typical attitude, then the OPs question "Is there a future for projectors?" Yes, of course. Projector and screen tech will advance as well as, or because of, direct view technology. But I doubt projectors will ever be more than small fraction of the 34 million televisions sold in the US last year. And emerging direct view tech will offer competition. 80" in 5 years. 120" in 10 years if you want it. No ambient light issues. No shadows. 1000000:1 contrast. And there will still be those insisting they are just glorified TV and do not offer a true "home theater" experience. That is until a new generation arrives with no memory of what a movie theatre is.

links:
http://svconline.com/residentialav/products/avinstall_home_theater_projectors_2/
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revisions/downloads/tv_vcr/Preliminary_TV_Market_Research012006.pdf

Using simple geometry, the apparent size is exactly the same. Yes, i realise a bigger screen is bigger (i.e. more surface area). My point was in a darkened theatre where you can't actually tell the distance to the screen, a screen twice as large but twice as far away appears exactly the same width.
To a SINGLE person, sitting exactly in the middle of the screen, that is true - assuming that person never moves their eyes. Because if your argument is simple geometry, then I would ask you "What's the difference between a 15" tv at 2 ft compared to a 60" tv at 8 ft?". I'm not joking, I'd like to see the response to that question based on simple geometry in a darkened room.

..I was just curious as to why a larger screen was better if it didnt appear to be. I suspect just knowing the sceen is massive plays some role in the "theatre experience" like this quote from a popular vendor here.
It's far beyond "knowing" it's looking. My neigbors have a big 50" LCD, and when watching a movie over there, my eyes will not stay fixed, they will wander. I will see the picture hanging on the wall, the table the tv is propped up on and the speakers sitting on both sides of the tv. But wait, that shouldn't be because I'm only sitting 6 ft from the screen so it should appear to be as big as 120" from 15'.

I take a great deal of pleasure knowing people who come to my theater see almost an entire wall of nothing but screen.
There is a mania among home theater fans to quest after the biggest screens possible, regardless of whether they fit into a domicile's décor or provide a more pleasing image to the average viewer's eye.
First, I suspect most people are like myself, I designed my room to be a theater - I'm not just shoving a big screen in it. I'm planning to buy a big flat panel soon for my living room - as I've told the OP already, each product has its pro's and con's. As for the "average viewer's eye", I think that site you linked to is for the "average viewer" - we're a little above average here at AVS.

I concur with what SimpleTheater said above, but with one lone exception.

As for the "average viewer's eye", I think that site you linked to is for the "average viewer" - we're a little above average here at AVS.

Replace "above average" with; "more obsessed, more informed, or more critical" than average, and we have a winner.

(Just trying to keep the peace. ;))

I am new to front projection. I have now had my Mitsu HC4900 (1080p) setup exactly one week on a 100" screen. After some tweaking and calibration there is simply no going back to a smaller screen for me. I was coming from a 56" Samsung DLP (720p native) and can definitely tell a difference with 1080p sources (HD DVD/Blu-Ray) on the 100" screen from 11-12ft away. I (well, mostly my wife) love the convenience of being able to raise the screen into the ceiling. The PJ is in a light controlled room and even with some ambient lighting in the middle of the day the PQ is outstanding. And you just cannot beat the price. I was looking at $3-5K Plasma and LCD HDTV's in the 50-60" price range (really wanted something bigger than 60") and finally decided on a front projector @ $1399. I am hooked on front projectors now. Nearly everyone who has seen my setup is now considering a front projector and Blu-Ray.

You are hooked because of the size, the PQ or both? If the plasma or LCD was available in 80 inches -would you buy that over the FP?

Again with the PQ. Please, wmassie, tell us what YOU have to work with. Specifics are needed, such as, but not limited to; room size, lighting controls, seating distance, budget, number of viewers/players, paint colors, etc. The more specific you can be, the better.

Only then are you going to get an informed answer.

I gather you are getting irritated at my questions. If I am in the wrong thread, I'll leave. I am a new member and I may not know all the "rules" yet - I just want to learn. To answer some of your questions:

I have a budget of $10,000
Nearly complete light control -I will only watch the projector at night with no more than 1 fc of ambient lighting.
I have room for a 106-110" screen
I will be sitting about 12' from the screen
I will be the only viewer ( I have a 73" Mits for guests, casual/daylight viewing)
My apartment walls are a painted in flat white

I have a budget of $10,000
Nearly complete light control -I will only watch the projector at night with no more than 1 fc of ambient lighting.
I have room for a 106-110" screen
I will be sitting about 12' from the screen
I will be the only viewer ( I have a 73" Mits for guests, casual/daylight viewing)
My apartment walls are a painted in flat white
There is nothing better than trying to spend other people's money. I'm assuming your $10k is for a complete system (e.g. you don't have an A/V receiver or speakers yet).

1) Invest in some paint. If you are truly going to be the only one in the room - paint ALL the walls flat black. You want to reduce reflections. If this was a home, I'd think about a different color, but since its an apartment you won't be there forever and don't need to worry about making the wife happy.
$50 for paint and paint supplies

2) Invest in a nice chair. You only need one.
$400

3) Acoustic panels - available on line (http://www.realtraps.com/)
[3] MiniTrap 2' by 4 - '$600

4) Bass traps - available on line (http://www.realtraps.com/)
Mondo Trap $300

More questions:
1) Do you want the speakers behind the screen or do you want to see the speakers? For the prior you'll need an acoustically transparent screen.

2) Will you be building your own screen frame?

3) You can save money by painting your screen onto the projection wall - not a bad idea for apartment and a great money saving option.

I'll let everyone else help you with equipment.

Hi wmassi,

I think what you're struggling with is the question of will a projected image be as good as the best plasma. I think the other members here have been trying to answer that question, but, it's hard to give a resounding yes without knowing what type of enviornment you plan. Now that you've stated that, and your budget, I think that people would be willing to give you a 'qualified' yes to your answer.

The picture quality of any display is defined by it's ability to faithfully reproduce the image fed to it without adding artifacts, AND to produce an image with sufficient brightness and contrast for enjoyable viewing in a specific environment. The latter is the most controversial in the flat panel vs projector comparison. Most of todays sub 3k projectors will come close on the former and not quite as close on ANSI and On/Off contrast compared to plasma given a perfect ( blackout ) viewing enviornment and dark walls / ceiling / floor near the screen. The current crop of ~5K machines will be closer on both fronts to the best plasma, again, based on perfect viewing conditions.

The biggest remains how 'you' feel about the image. Even 1fc of light will compromise the on / off contrast of even the best projector made, but, you may not even notice. You really have to go out and see some projectors in good and not so good enviorments to tell how you feel about the technology. The main point is that if you have a blackout enviornment and dark screen surroundngs you will get a picture quality that competes with the best plasma. While a little ambient light will compromise the contrast of the image, you may not care or notice. If you do, just watch in a blackout.

As many have stated before, the immersivness of a 100"+ screen adds much more to the experience of movie watching compared to a smaller display with possibly better contrast. If you don't want to watch in total darkness, and the slight elevation in black caused by some indirect ambient light drive you bonkers ... well, the plasma is probably a better choice for you.

Go see some projectors and decide for yourself.

Jonathan

Wouldn't picture quality be a deciding factor for some people?

Alright, I just got my Epson Home Cinema PowerLite 550 replacement for the one that came in this weekend with a broken HDMI port. Therefore, I can finally answer you with a straight answer instead of other people's dodgy ones.

The new one works perfectly, and let me tell you, even on a beige wall with enough ambient light to just barely read by comfortably, it looks INSANELY good compared to my N3751W 37" 720P LCD HDTV. There is simply no comparison even with the projector at a screen size of roughly 60" just to test functionality and a minor amount of calibration vs. tons on the LCD.

Detail, shadows/black details, overall sharpness, depth of image ("punch"-3D factor, I guess), and overall quality are in another league comparatively, for the better. I can't wait to get my 84" Elite Manual Pulldown in on Thursday and the other couple of items such as speakers/receiver in soon, to really experience this in a fully dark room.

Simply put, any decent projector is likely going to exceed the quality of an LCD in both overall size, experience, and detail to the average technically-informed viewer. No, perhaps on Reference DVD #417 test 271-A, the projector will have a 10% degradation vs. the LCD in the bottm-left, but in real-life viewing, the "whole package" so to speak, will be far better.

EDIT: P.S. to the people saying that the apparrent size should be all that matters based on viewing distance, look at a billboard. Sure, it may have an aparrent size mathematically the same as XXXX at YYYY viewing distance, but you KNOW it is bigger, and it appears bigger to your mind as well. Humans judge size innately despite the apparrent size, that's why you know a car looking out the window is bigger than the curtain-string in front of you by a couple of inches.

There is nothing better than trying to spend other people's money. I'm assuming your $10k is for a complete system (e.g. you don't have an A/V receiver or speakers yet).

1) Invest in some paint. If you are truly going to be the only one in the room - paint ALL the walls flat black. You want to reduce reflections. If this was a home, I'd think about a different color, but since its an apartment you won't be there forever and don't need to worry about making the wife happy.
$50 for paint and paint supplies

2) Invest in a nice chair. You only need one.
$400

3) Acoustic panels - available on line (http://www.realtraps.com/)
[3] MiniTrap 2' by 4 - '$600

4) Bass traps - available on line (http://www.realtraps.com/)
Mondo Trap $300

More questions:
1) Do you want the speakers behind the screen or do you want to see the speakers? For the prior you'll need an acoustically transparent screen.

2) Will you be building your own screen frame?

3) You can save money by painting your screen onto the projection wall - not a bad idea for apartment and a great money saving option.

I'll let everyone else help you with equipment.


Already have speakers (klispch)
chair
reciever
video processor (VP-50)
HD player - PS3

10K budget is for screen and projector. Apartment won't let me repaint the walls - I'll be there another 2 yearsthen I'll buy my house and build a dedicated theater - no wife to please so everything will be geared to getting the biggest picture with the highest PQ. Once kids are out of college -nothing else will matter -big picture - pristine picture quality.

10K budget is for screen and projector. Apartment won't let me repaint the walls - I'll be there another 2 yearsthen I'll buy my house and build a dedicated theater - no wife to please so everything will be geared to getting the biggest picture with the highest PQ. Once kids are out of college -nothing else will matter -big picture - pristine picture quality.
The best quality comes with a fixed frame screen, but you're moving, and taking down a fixed frame screen can be a pain.

Projector for your price range is a no brainer - JVC DLA-RS2 $5,795 - PM me if you can't find it this cheap

Screen is a tough one - $4k will buy you a nice AT screen from Stewart or Screen Research.

You are hooked because of the size, the PQ or both? If the plasma or LCD was available in 80 inches -would you buy that over the FP?

The size, the PQ, the fact that I can make that 100" screen disappear into the ceiling, the cost factor, etc.

For me (coming from a 56" 720p native set) there is a noticeable jump in PQ with the 4900 (1080p) when viewing Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies. And it is not just the screen size. This is why I am hooked. I cannot even put into words how amazing it is to sit in my media room and watch Planet Earth (Blu-Ray) on a 100" screen on a 1080p projector. You can clearly see details that you just cannot on a 720p DLP from the same distance away. I find it harder and harder to justify going to the movie theater these days.. Another thing that really surprised me is how standard def programming looks on Dish on the PJ vs the Samsung DLP. It actually looks better. I think the Samsung did a really poor job handling standard def TV, but even my wife commented last night how the PJ looks sharper than our previous HDTV.

If there was an 80" plasma/LCD available (1080p) for under $2K (my budget) I would have definitely considered that as an option. However, going from a 100" screen to an 80" screen now may not be an option :) And I suspect it will be some time before 80" 1080p plasma/LCD HDTV's are going to be selling for $2-3K. And I cannot even imagine what an 80" plasma would weigh. I am not even sure if you would be able to mount it on the wall...

Projector for your price range is a no brainer - JVC DLA-RS2 $5,795 @ ******

Screen is a tough one - $4k will buy you a nice AT screen from Stewart or Screen Research.

You've been here long enough to know better. Please remove what appears to be your self-promoting link. AVS provides us this forum and they have better prices, return policies and support.

I gather you are getting irritated at my questions. If I am in the wrong thread, I'll leave. I am a new member and I may not know all the "rules" yet - I just want to learn. To answer some of your questions:

I have a budget of $10,000
Nearly complete light control -I will only watch the projector at night with no more than 1 fc of ambient lighting.
I have room for a 106-110" screen
I will be sitting about 12' from the screen
I will be the only viewer ( I have a 73" Mits for guests, casual/daylight viewing)
My apartment walls are a painted in flat white

I'm not irritated at all, just stating that without parameters, it's impossible for ANYONE to give you an informed opinion. Now that we have your info, your choice is painfully crystal clear. You NEED a projector. Period. You've heard it here again, and again, and again...forget itty-bitty plasmas and LCD TVs.

So you live in an apartment. Big deal. Paint the walls. Paint them back when you move out. No maintenance man on Earth is going to deny you from doing his job when you move. No apt. manager is going to pass up a free paint and $$200-$400 savings when they turn a unit. (I've been both, btw.)

For 10,000, I can get an image that will obliterate any puny plasma on the market. (Sorry, Kuro, you might look great and seem big to kids and Oompa Loompas, but us men need a BIG screen.)

And yes, I mean in regard to PQ! :D

>Seriously, to say 60" at 8 ft is the same as 120" at 16 ft is wrong. A 120" screen has 440% more surface area than a 60" screen.< ???

Using simple geometry, the apparent size is exactly the same. Yes, i realise a bigger screen is bigger (i.e. more surface area). My point was in a darkened theatre where you can't actually tell the distance to the screen, a screen twice as large but twice as far away appears exactly the same width.


No offense intended, but that's ridiculous :). What theater have you been in where you aren't aware of anything but the screen? Your eye and your brain absolutely know from external cues the difference between something small up close, and something large further away. I remember reading a funny post on the topic a while ago (I think by darinp2) - basically making the point that any human who could not differentiate between large and far away, and small and up close, was probably weeded out of the gene pool back in the Jurassic era and became some creature's lunch! :D

A larger screen, viewed from further away simply has more impact than a smaller screen up close - in just about any real condition you'd care to imagine. It provides more impact of scale, and that is what people try to achieve in their HT.

I'm not irritated at all, just stating that without parameters, it's impossible for ANYONE to give you an informed opinion. Now that we have your info, your choice is painfully crystal clear. You NEED a projector. Period. You've heard it here again, and again, and again...forget itty-bitty plasmas and LCD TVs.

So you live in an apartment. Big deal. Paint the walls. Paint them back when you move out. No maintenance man on Earth is going to deny you from doing his job when you move. No apt. manager is going to pass up a free paint and $$200-$400 savings when they turn a unit. (I've been both, btw.)

For 10,000, I can get an image that will obliterate any puny plasma on the market. (Sorry, Kuro, you might look great and seem big to kids and Oompa Loompas, but us men need a BIG screen.)

And yes, I mean in regard to PQ! :D

10K will buy a lot projector. You don't need nearly that much. The Optoma HD70 could be had for as little as $600 and a Toshiba A30 for $100. Add a screen for $200. A $1000 setup such as this easily beats most flat displays.

As long as the technology can produce something that weighs 4 lbs and is as small as an hd65 their will always be a future for front projection. When they get rid of conventional lamps this technology is going to take off. Many more people will have dedicated theater rooms with total light control. A beautiful 100 inch plus picture for 1k is a great bargin. A beautiful 100 inch picture where you don't have to buy a 400 dollar bulb will easily trump the other technologies.

A beautiful 100 inch picture where you don't have to buy a 400 dollar bulb will easily trump the other technologies.
I hope this day comes soon. I do think the PJ lamp business is akin to the printer ink business. They practically give printers away because the ink makes so much revenue.

I hope this day comes soon. I do think the PJ lamp business is akin to the printer ink business. They practically give printers away because the ink makes so much revenue.

Your prayers are being answer as you read.
Mits rolls out first gen laser RPTVs THIS year. It's only a matter of time til we see FP setups. JVC supposedly had a private viewing in LV at CES of their FP prototype. Figure a couple or three years and the "bulb" will be history.

Your prayers are being answer as you read.
Mits rolls out first gen laser RPTVs THIS year. It's only a matter of time til we see FP setups. JVC supposedly had a private viewing in LV at CES of their FP prototype. Figure a couple or three years and the "bulb" will be history.:cool:

I'm not irritated at all, just stating that without parameters, it's impossible for ANYONE to give you an informed opinion. Now that we have your info, your choice is painfully crystal clear. You NEED a projector. Period. You've heard it here again, and again, and again...forget itty-bitty plasmas and LCD TVs.

So you live in an apartment. Big deal. Paint the walls. Paint them back when you move out. No maintenance man on Earth is going to deny you from doing his job when you move. No apt. manager is going to pass up a free paint and $$200-$400 savings when they turn a unit. (I've been both, btw.)

For 10,000, I can get an image that will obliterate any puny plasma on the market. (Sorry, Kuro, you might look great and seem big to kids and Oompa Loompas, but us men need a BIG screen.)

And yes, I mean in regard to PQ! :D


Thanks - after reading this post I was able to sleep comfortably for the first time in weeks. I was offered an Epson 1080UB (still boxed) by a friend who has to sell his because of relocation. I have never seen the Epson in action - but the price might make it hard to pass up since my apartment setup will only have to last about 2 years. The projectors I have seen (Sony VW-50,60) and the RS1 leave me a little underwhelmed as far as brightness - which brings me to another perplexing question - why on earth would a projector manufacture make a projector with anything less than 1200 lumens (this is from a guy who avoids movie theaters because I find their screens to dim). I thought the technology had advanced enough to not make contrast and brightness mutually exclusive.

I hope this day comes soon. I do think the PJ lamp business is akin to the printer ink business. They practically give printers away because the ink makes so much revenue.

I just wished they made the lamps brighter!

The size, the PQ, the fact that I can make that 100" screen disappear into the ceiling, the cost factor, etc.

For me (coming from a 56" 720p native set) there is a noticeable jump in PQ with the 4900 (1080p) when viewing Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies. And it is not just the screen size. This is why I am hooked. I cannot even put into words how amazing it is to sit in my media room and watch Planet Earth (Blu-Ray) on a 100" screen on a 1080p projector. You can clearly see details that you just cannot on a 720p DLP from the same distance away. I find it harder and harder to justify going to the movie theater these days.. Another thing that really surprised me is how standard def programming looks on Dish on the PJ vs the Samsung DLP. It actually looks better. I think the Samsung did a really poor job handling standard def TV, but even my wife commented last night how the PJ looks sharper than our previous HDTV.

If there was an 80" plasma/LCD available (1080p) for under $2K (my budget) I would have definitely considered that as an option. However, going from a 100" screen to an 80" screen now may not be an option :) And I suspect it will be some time before 80" 1080p plasma/LCD HDTV's are going to be selling for $2-3K. And I cannot even imagine what an 80" plasma would weigh. I am not even sure if you would be able to mount it on the wall...


Thanks for your reply - your experience has given me hope as I start on this journey to achieve big picture-oustanding image

The best quality comes with a fixed frame screen, but you're moving, and taking down a fixed frame screen can be a pain.

Projector for your price range is a no brainer - JVC DLA-RS2 $5,795 - PM me if you can't find it this cheap

Screen is a tough one - $4k will buy you a nice AT screen from Stewart or Screen Research.

I saw the RS1 at a friend's house (calibrated) - I found it to dim. Is the RS2 any brighter? Why does the fixed frame have better quality?

"Make the projectors brighter!"

Alright, I just got my Epson Home Cinema PowerLite 550 replacement for the one that came in this weekend with a broken HDMI port. Therefore, I can finally answer you with a straight answer instead of other people's dodgy ones.

The new one works perfectly, and let me tell you, even on a beige wall with enough ambient light to just barely read by comfortably, it looks INSANELY good compared to my N3751W 37" 720P LCD HDTV. There is simply no comparison even with the projector at a screen size of roughly 60" just to test functionality and a minor amount of calibration vs. tons on the LCD.

Detail, shadows/black details, overall sharpness, depth of image ("punch"-3D factor, I guess), and overall quality are in another league comparatively, for the better. I can't wait to get my 84" Elite Manual Pulldown in on Thursday and the other couple of items such as speakers/receiver in soon, to really experience this in a fully dark room.

Simply put, any decent projector is likely going to exceed the quality of an LCD in both overall size, experience, and detail to the average technically-informed viewer. No, perhaps on Reference DVD #417 test 271-A, the projector will have a 10% degradation vs. the LCD in the bottm-left, but in real-life viewing, the "whole package" so to speak, will be far better.

EDIT: P.S. to the people saying that the apparrent size should be all that matters based on viewing distance, look at a billboard. Sure, it may have an aparrent size mathematically the same as XXXX at YYYY viewing distance, but you KNOW it is bigger, and it appears bigger to your mind as well. Humans judge size innately despite the apparrent size, that's why you know a car looking out the window is bigger than the curtain-string in front of you by a couple of inches.


Thanks GoldenTiger. Your comment about "depth of image" has me encouraged. Maybe there is hope afterall.

I saw the RS1 at a friend's house (calibrated) - I found it to dim. Is the RS2 any brighter?
They both use the same bulb, but the RS2 has, according to JVC, twice the contrast ratio. This will make blacks blacker and the image will appear brighter. The JVC is amazing because it will put out about 650 ANSI lumens after being ISF calibrated. A very bright projector is the Optoma HD-81LV (I own the the plain 81). Both units are bright, but the ANSI lumen output drops BELOW the RS2 after being ISF calibrated.

That said - you want between 12 - 20 ft lamberts coming off your screen. 650 lumens hitting a 1.0 gain 120" 16:9 screen will come in at 15. As the bulb dims you may drop below 12, but not much. This assumes total darkness in the room.

Why does the fixed frame have better quality?
A fixed frame will hold the screen tight in all locations for many years - probably around 10 - 15 years, if not longer. It can be taken down and tightened in the future if necessary. Over time roll up screens, even with tension rods, will start to lose their perfect flatness and affect picture quality. A painted wall - assuming the taping job on the drywall was done perfectly, is an excellent option because it will remain flat. Any imperfections in the flatness of the wall will be noticeable - but some sanding and repainting can take care of that.
"Make the projectors brighter!"
While I won't argue this point (I want them brighter too), I'll take 650 lumens with 10,000:1 contrast ratio over 1,300 lumens and a 2,000:1 contrast ratio. Don't get caught up totally in lumen output. It's only one piece of the puzzle.

As a former project owner. I experienced both the joy of watching a 100" hdtv picture but also the pain of owning a projector (setup, daylight viewing etc..)

I think everyone agree in term of just picture, plasma is the better choice as it offers signifcantly better pq with light on and slightly more convenient to setup/maintain - like i can just turn it on to watch half hr news.

The main advantage of the projector of course is screen size and price. But with the 1080p 60" plasmas now under 4k, do you guys think it's just a matter of time before the 70-80" comes down to the same price level? By then the gap between plasma vs projector in term of size/value would almost disappear.

I mean even now, i am beginning to lean towards just gettin a 60" plasma instead of a projector as the screen size isnt that big a difference anymore.

What do you guys think, will home theater projectors eventually become obsolete or only kept in the dedicated dark rooms?

Without reading 118 responses to see if this has been mentioned before, I have to say the greatest difference between the projector and the gigantic flatscreen TV, regardless of relative technology, is the Wife Acceptance Factor.

My projector screen rolls up into the ceiling to reveal an entire room corner behind it, complete with several bookcases, a window, and even a small screen TV. On movie night it is my super-theater, but by day it is a mild-mannered recreation room. The projector is a small box mounted on the ceiling across the room.

How many wives are going to sign up to a 100 inch, black, hulking, behemoth taking over their house? Flat screen TVs are ugly. We enthusiasts don't see it that way, but the fact is, they are ugly, and they keep getting bigger, so now they are big and ugly. Even I can agree with my wife on that point, so I am planning my next projector purchase for when I see a clear 1080p unit at my price point. Actually, the Epson 1080 UB and the Sony VW40 are both tempting me, but the real winner is that retracting screen.

+1 on the WAF

wmassie,

If you find commercial theatres dim, then you should probably be considering a high gain screen. The Dalite HiPower is about 3x gain and very popular with forum members. It is 'retro reflective' meaning that the projected light bounces back at the source. To take advantage of the gain you'll have to shelf mount your projector as close to eye level as practical. Retro screens have a narrower viewing cone than regular 1.0 gain screens. You have to be seated between the edges of the screen to be in the high gain sweet spot. It doesn't sound like this would be an issue for you. Retro screens are also better than regular 1.0 gain screens in rooms with light coloured walls, as they don't scatter as much light to the walls, and also bounce stray light back at the source, so the screen doesn't wash out as much during mixed / bright scenes.

Jonathan

+1 on the WAF

wmassie,

If you find commercial theatres dim, then you should probably be considering a high gain screen. The Dalite HiPower is about 3x gain and very popular with forum members. It is 'retro reflective' meaning that the projected light bounces back at the source. To take advantage of the gain you'll have to shelf mount your projector as close to eye level as practical. Retro screens have a narrower viewing cone than regular 1.0 gain screens. You have to be seated between the edges of the screen to be in the high gain sweet spot. It doesn't sound like this would be an issue for you. Retro screens are also better than regular 1.0 gain screens in rooms with light coloured walls, as they don't scatter as much light to the walls, and also bounce stray light back at the source, so the screen doesn't wash out as much during mixed / bright scenes.

Jonathan


Thanks Mr. Jonathan but what about hot spots?

Thanks Mr. Jonathan but what about hot spots?I've used the DaLite WIDE POWER before. It has a gain of 2.2 but still maintains a wide viewing angle. I observed no sparkles because there are no glass beads and the material used that gives it such a wide viewing angle also eliminates hotspots.

looks like everyone is staying with pj then

looks like everyone is staying with pj thenThose of us in this forum? Yes. In the $20,000 and up forum? They might be interested in a 100" panel but since the cinema effect is such a unique experience, you might not get any takers over there either.

Hi wmassie,

We sit about 12' from a 92" HiPower with the projector mounted directly behind the couch. No observable hot-spotting in the high gain cone at this distance. If you move in to about 9', you can clearly see it.

The eye will notice hot-spotting when one point on the screen is twice as bright as another point. This is why the half-gain angle of the screen material is published. As long as the angle between your point of view at a specific screen point, and the projector lens, and another POV / screen / lens position do not have a delta beyond the half gain angle of the screen material, you won't see hot-spots.

This is rather tedious to calculate manually, thankfully another memeber here, FLboy, created a neat little app to do all the calculations for you. Wish I had found it before I did all the tangental math myself!

FLboy's screen gain calculator thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=966057&highlight=gain+angle+calculator)

Jonathan