Ok, I am going to be getting a Epik Valor subwoofer in about a week. So I have been preparing for its arrival. Which includes trying to figure out how I can calibrate/EQ it with the rest of my system.

I found a somewhat simple solution (or so I thought). I got the analog Radio Shack SPL meter, and ordered Rives test audio CD. Which from I read is corrected to work with the Shacks SPL meter. So that works great for me. All is well until I start to think a little deeper, looking at the PDF of Rives 20-20,000hz in 1/3 octave I see a huge gap in the process. My receiver.

I have the Onkyo TX-SR605. Upon rummaging through its settings in the past, I noticed that I could EQ each speaker and subwoofer. But what I didn't realize until after I ordered everything, is that its only a 5-band EQ. Hardly the 31-band 1/3 octave EQ I would need in order to make any use of Rives test CD.

So this is why I am here. What are my options? Is it even possible for me to EQ my sub, or even my speakers with just the 605 and no external equalizer? Or do I have to buy something like this for around $300. ART 352 31 band graphic equalizer (http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?type=91&cat=14&id=39)

Any help is appreciated. And please be gentle, I am a newbie at this EQ stuff, most terminology goes way over my head. I am surprised I got as far as I have :D Also, if the solution could involve using the Shack meter and Rives test CD, that would be a lot easier...since I already bought both.

You should look into free software such as Room EQ Wizard (http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/) (also supported on this forum). It can be used to analyze your sub and room response and to setup a Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro models DSP1124P and FBQ2496 or to model the effect of filters that you set using other hardware. It is very nice software--give it a try.

The Behringer hardware is not world class but is more than adequate for setting up a subwoofer.

The RS SPL meter is not a full range meter. It is a good tool for balancing your system using pink noise and for using Room EQ Wiz.

The EQ built into your Onkyo is, as you suspected, not likely to do the job.

You might be a good candidate for the Velodyne SMS-1 for a sub EQ. It's more expensive than the SPL meter/REQ/Behringer feedback destroyer combo, but much easier to use. It has an 8 band parametric EQ specifically for the sub. You connect it inline between your sub out on the receiver and the sub, and you can view the EQ curve right on your TV screen. You can see the adjustments you're making in real time. It's very effective for getting rid of peaks at the listening position. Bass traps are still necessary to smooth out the response throughout a room however (as is the case for any EQ).

http://velodyne.com/products/product.aspx?ID=15&sid=177f682o

You should look into free software such as Room EQ Wizard (http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/) (also supported on this forum). It can be used to analyze your sub and room response and to setup a Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro models DSP1124P and FBQ2496 or to model the effect of filters that you set using other hardware. It is very nice software--give it a try.

The Behringer hardware is not world class but is more than adequate for setting up a subwoofer.

The RS SPL meter is not a full range meter. It is a good tool for balancing your system using pink noise and for using Room EQ Wiz.

The EQ built into your Onkyo is, as you suspected, not likely to do the job.

Thanks for the help. So I do need a separate EQ, darn. :(

But yeah, the things you mentioned seem extremely complicated. And designed for sound engineers and people who set-up professional sound stages. Both the Behringer's are priced somewhat cheap, and thats nice. But the first one is only a 24-band EQ, and the second one seems like it would take me all of three years to figure out.

If at all possible, it would be nice to just get something simple like the 31-band EQ I mentioned, just maybe a wee-bit cheaper...because for all I know, I spend close to half of what my sub cost me, and it ends up not making any difference whatsoever.

Could you suggest where I could look, or even a product that is simple to use? One that has analog sliders instead of everything digital?

Example:
http://www.artproaudio.com/images/products/lg_352.jpg

If at all possible, it would be nice to just get something simple like the 31-band EQ I mentioned

A third-octave EQ is not appropriate for room EQ. I'd argue that no equalizer is appropriate, but at least a parametric EQ has half a chance at hitting the correct frequencies.

--Ethan

Another option for you may be the Elemental Designs eQ.2. It will allow you to boost or cut at two frequencies in the sub range. In my case I have peaks in my room response at 30Hz and 60Hz, both about 1/3 octive wide, and that matches up pretty nicely with the capabilities of that processor. You can put it between pre-amp and sub so it's not in your source-to-main-speaker signal path. It's new and they're probably just about ready to start shipping the first units. $100.

A third-octave EQ is not appropriate for room EQ. I'd argue that no equalizer is appropriate, but at least a parametric EQ has half a chance at hitting the correct frequencies.

--Ethan

So using the Rives Audio test CD is useless then? I am confused, if a parametric EQ would work, then the one in my Onkyo would do just fine right?

EDIT: Also, if I do have to buy a external EQ something, this is pretty darn cheap, and would work perfectly with the Rives Test CD
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ART351

While it would not be appropriate...would it work?

Or you could simply use the Audyssey EQ built into your AVR.

A third-octave EQ is not appropriate for room EQ. I'd argue that no equalizer is appropriate, but at least a parametric EQ has half a chance at hitting the correct frequencies.

--Ethan

Agreed. When I measured my room, all of my bass problems were in frequencies in between what the 1/3 octave EQ has for selections, rendering such a device useless.

For example, 110hz, 92hz, 140hz, 70hz, 45hz are all not covered by that device, but where problems in my room.

Agreed. When I measured my room, all of my bass problems were in frequencies in between what the 1/3 octave EQ has for selections, rendering such a device useless.

For example, 110hz, 92hz, 140hz, 70hz, 45hz are all not covered by that device, but where problems in my room.

Well, this is pretty lame. Then how do you guys EQ your subs? With a parametric EQ? (is that the same as on my Onkyo?)

Cause your all making it sound like a futile attempt to try and EQ my sub to my room...what gives?

Well, this is pretty lame. Then how do you guys EQ your subs? With a parametric EQ? (is that the same as on my Onkyo?)

Cause your all making it sound like a futile attempt to try and EQ my sub to my room...what gives?

Your situation might be different, but I was just giving you an idea of the battle I have in my room :(

My solution was to be as careful as possible with speaker position, subwoofer position, listening position to minimize those problems. I still have problems, but I am unwilling to pay for a PEQ that will optimize the FR in 1 spot forcing me to listen with my head in a vice and having very-crap FR just a few inches away!

Before you worry about eq and such, I would encourage you, once you get your subwoofer, to really pay attention to putting your listening position where room modes stack least (38% of length dimension), to place speakers appropriately (away from room boundaries (>2') and away from 1/4 intervals of room dimensions), and to place your subwoofer where it measures the best (this will take quite a bit of trial and measurement).

By placing the subwoofer in my listening chair, and measuring 5 candidate locations for my subwoofer with a microphone (running sine sweeps), I was able to find a location that was reasonably flat from 16hz-48hz (the range I use my subwoofer).

My speakers do not measure flat in my room, but I've opimized their location which has yielded a much better sound quality. I happen to not be in a position where room treatments are practical, but that would be the next logical step and ethan can help with advice for that :)

Well, this is pretty lame. Then how do you guys EQ your subs? With a parametric EQ? (is that the same as on my Onkyo?)

Cause your all making it sound like a futile attempt to try and EQ my sub to my room...what gives?
Spending all this in addition to the inexpensive AVR is silly since you could have bought a better AVR with, incidentally, a higher resolution version of Audyssey. If you think you can use the PEQ in the 605 for anything useful, other than a tone control, you need to do a lot more reading about EQ.

Again. The version of Audyssey you have is probably at least as good as any of the alternatives if you use it correctly.

Your situation might be different, but I was just giving you an idea of the battle I have in my room :(

My solution was to be as careful as possible with speaker position, subwoofer position, listening position to minimize those problems. I still have problems, but I am unwilling to pay for a PEQ that will optimize the FR in 1 spot forcing me to listen with my head in a vice and having very-crap FR just a few inches away!

Before you worry about eq and such, I would encourage you, once you get your subwoofer, to really pay attention to putting your listening position where room modes stack least (38% of length dimension), to place speakers appropriately (away from room boundaries (>2') and away from 1/4 intervals of room dimensions), and to place your subwoofer where it measures the best (this will take quite a bit of trial and measurement).

By placing the subwoofer in my listening chair, and measuring 5 candidate locations for my subwoofer with a microphone (running sine sweeps), I was able to find a location that was reasonably flat from 16hz-48hz (the range I use my subwoofer).

My speakers do not measure flat in my room, but I've opimized their location which has yielded a much better sound quality. I happen to not be in a position where room treatments are practical, but that would be the next logical step and ethan can help with advice for that :)

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am kind of out of luck when it comes to sub arrangement...I have 2 places at best that I can use it in. (cramped studio apartment) so if it didn't sound really good off the bat, a EQ was my only choice. Plus I would want to EQ it anyway just so I am getting the best of the best I can.

So basically, with all other options aside, the only real way for me to get my sub properly EQ'ed is to get one of those Behringer feedback destroyers (I have no idea what they even do) and the REQ software? I have heard you need laptop for this, is that true? Cause I basically have a one-room apartment here, and my desktop computer is in the same area as my HT.

Spending all this in addition to the inexpensive AVR is silly since you could have bought a better AVR with, incidentally, a higher resolution version of Audyssey. If you think you can use the PEQ in the 605 for anything useful, other than a tone control, you need to do a lot more reading about EQ.

Again. The version of Audyssey you have is probably at least as good as any of the alternatives if you use it correctly.

Your right, I don't know **** about EQ, thats why I am asking for help. Also, like I already said, the Audyssey is absoluter crap when it comes to subs.

And in all honesty, its probably pretty much useless altogether anyway. I used it last night just for the heck of it, and the only difference I noticed was that it screwed up the balance levels on my speakers...there was NO positive difference in SQ other than that, in fact it actually made things sound worse and the sound just doesn't have any 'impact' anymore.

If your seriously trying to tell me, the Audyssey is the absolute best thing I can do to EQ my sub/speakers without spending 2 grand on fancy EQ equipment...then I really doubt your knowledge of EQing. A 31 band EQ with Rives test CD (if you know what that is) should at least help improve things better than the damn crappy Audyssey. Give me a break.

Firstly, you need to calm down. Kal has quite a bit of experience with this stuff in general. I sent you a pm so that I can understand your limitations a bit better. Fixing room acoustics with electronics is not very easy. Understanding room acoustics and what you are up against is already somewhat difficult for the laymen. There are several ways to battle room acoustic problems. EQ is the final step, not the first.

Your right, I don't know **** about EQ, thats why I am asking for help. Also, like I already said, the Audyssey is absoluter crap when it comes to subs.

And in all honesty, its probably pretty much useless altogether anyway. I used it last night just for the heck of it, and the only difference I noticed was that it screwed up the balance levels on my speakers...there was NO positive difference in SQ other than that, in fact it actually made things sound worse and the sound just doesn't have any 'impact' anymore.

If your seriously trying to tell me, the Audyssey is the absolute best thing I can do to EQ my sub/speakers without spending 2 grand on fancy EQ equipment...then I really doubt your knowledge of EQing. A 31 band EQ with Rives test CD (if you know what that is) should at least help improve things better than the damn crappy Audyssey. Give me a break.

A 31 band EQ with Rives test CD (if you know what that is) should at least help improve things better than the damn crappy Audyssey. Give me a break. Give US a break and try to learn something. :) If Audyssey can't fix it, a 1/3 octave graphic EQ won't do any better. The Audyssey has WAY more resolution than 31 bands. That 5 band thingy in the receiver is an alternate manual EQ to the Audyssey. All that said, Audyssey isn't perfect and there are definitely some tricks to getting good measurements with it. There are threads about it in the receiver forum and Kal has contributed a lot to those. But the same applies to manually measuring and setting up an EQ, only more so. If you can't make Audyssey work, you for sure can't make manual EQ work so try to learn. Search for Audyssey and set aside some time for reading. :)

Give US a break and try to learn something. :) If Audyssey can't fix it, a 1/3 octave graphic EQ won't do any better. The Audyssey has WAY more resolution than 31 bands. That 5 band thingy in the receiver is an alternate manual EQ to the Audyssey. All that said, Audyssey isn't perfect and there are definitely some tricks to getting good measurements with it. There are threads about it in the receiver forum and Kal has contributed a lot to those. But the same applies to manually measuring and setting up an EQ, only more so. If you can't make Audyssey work, you for sure can't make manual EQ work so try to learn. Search for Audyssey and set aside some time for reading. :)

Yes, sorry for getting a bit bend out of shape, I just don't like the fact that I wasted my money on the Rives CD and a Shack meter, even though they don't cost much. And since I haven't heard anything good about the Audyssey I got upset that he kept suggesting it.

Since a lot of reviewers report it as taking the overall 'impact' away from the sound, and that its horrible with subs. After last night, I am willing to believe that. But I will read some more into a detailed setup with it, cause I guess anything is better than nothing.

Thanks for all the help guys. I am slowly learning more and more as time moves on.

You've now had some really expert opinions; I give great weight to what Ethan, Kal et al have to say. Listen to these guys. :cool:

I urge you to try Room EQ. Its free. You can use your desktop and the RS meter. If you have questions there are many who will help you here or over at hometheatershack.

Why use this software? It allows you to see the interactions of your room and sub and to quickly see the impact of any changes you make. It is designed to setup a FBD, but you don't have to get one. It will show you both the peaks and valleys in your room response, as well as the decay times of various frequencies. You can immediately see what happens if you change a cross over point, phase setting or engage your receiver's on board eq. You can also see the need for sound control/bass traps and test any that you install.

I ran this software, discovered that nulls and ringing were more of an issue than peaks. After adjusting things a bit and adding some sound control I never did buy a BFD. EQ of any kind really can't be used to raise nulls and I can live with what is now a much better sounding room.

And since I haven't heard anything good about the Audyssey I got upset that he kept suggesting it. Well, maybe you should read some of Kal's reviews in Stereophile (he's a contributing editor). :) Audioholics has also had some good in-depth reviews about what Audyssey can and can't do. Most of the 'bad' reviews, I'd compare to 'I just bought a Ferrari and now you tell me I have to learn to drive a stick shift? What a bunch of cr*p!' :) There are problems no EQ can fix and there are plenty of ways to mess up room measurements like noise (traffic, fridge, kids) and reflections from nearby surfaces (walls, leather couch backs).

Well, Adyssey does me absolutely no good for my sub since I have the Onkyo 605. Just read this on their site, the one I have is a crap version of Adyssey and doesn't apply filters to the subwoofer (whatever the hell that means). It is also limited to only 2 positions in the room, compared to 8 or more with other receivers. (I thought the 3 positions I took last night were good enough...I guess not) So the Adyssey does Onkyo 605 users absolutely no good whatsoever.

Good going Adyssey, what the **** is the point of even implementing it to the receiver if its a pile of worthless junk version of the real thing? Absolutely ridiculous, I guess I have to pay $15,000 to get the real deal on the monster of all receivers to make use of this sub-par product.

Geez, leukoplast, take a chill pill! "D*mn it, I bought a Yugo and it won't do 0-60 in 4 seconds. Man am I pi$$ed!" :) I didn't know your Onkyo had the crippled version of Audyssey. I guess you would have had to spend a couple hundred more to get the next higher model, the 705. Can you trade it? How much does that external EQ you wanted to buy cost?

lol, yeah thats me :D. At any rate I really don't think I am going to be buying another receiver anytime soon. I mean I got the 605 because (I thought) it had enough features to sort of 'future proof' my system for a long time. And after a few months I keep hearing/reading about more and more reasons why its a horrible receiver. That it cant do this, it cant do that. Its quite frustrating. When you think you have everything you want/need covered, turns out your still only half-way there.

As for the EQ, I found a ART 31-band for about $100 at Sweetwater/Musicians friend. But if the two positions of Adyssey don't do me any good (when I get my new sub and test it) I would probably just be wasting my time trying to EQ it with a limited 31-band EQ. Since after all, if the problem is my room placement/positioning, or even a frequency the EQ doesn't cover, I'm out of luck.

If you want subwoofer EQ, listen to trekguy and buy a $100 Behringer unit + download free REW software. Audio reproduction is imperfect, and probably forever will be. There will always be next year's model, and sometimes it will actually have a useful technological advance rather than just more useless features. :)

Technology often seems like a plague rather than a benefit. I'm reading Barbara Tuckman's A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century (http://www.amazon.com/Distant-Mirror-Calamitous-14th-Century/dp/0345349571/sr=1-1/qid=1160832681******sr_1_1/002-3888160-2985609?ie=UTF8&s=books). Now there was a plague! :D

Regards,
Terry

Give me a break.Granted.:p

If you want subwoofer EQ, listen to trekguy and buy a $100 Behringer unit + download free REW software. Audio reproduction is imperfect, and probably forever will be. There will always be next year's model, and sometimes it will actually have a useful technological advance rather than just more useless features. :)

Technology often seems like a plague rather than a benefit. I'm reading Barbara Tuckman's A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century (http://www.amazon.com/Distant-Mirror-Calamitous-14th-Century/dp/0345349571/sr=1-1/qid=1160832681******sr_1_1/002-3888160-2985609?ie=UTF8&s=books). Now there was a plague! :D

Regards,
Terry

I guess I could try and learn how those things work, but the software and the Berhinger seem overly complicated.

With the REW software and the Behringer, would that give me 'better' results that the Rives CD and a 31-band EQ? Because I already bought the CD, so its either buy a 31-band EQ, or go with the REW and Behringer. Whatever would yield me better results I would go for.

Also, is there a thread about this that I could goto for full details on how the REW + Behringer work? Because I don't have a laptop, nor do I have a fancy audio card. Just the standard.

Ha, glad I didn't just go out and buy this useless feedback destroyer. IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE RCA INPUTS!!

So I would have to re-buy a subwoofer cable (which I just recently bought a 25' one from monoprice) so it is a RCA to 1/4. How ****ing lame. Stop recommending this crap without telling people what they are getting into.

Also, I think I have to have MIDI as well. And last I checked...not many computers have MIDI, at least not the common ones.

With the REW software and the Behringer, would that give me 'better' results that the Rives CD and a 31-band EQ?
Yes. A 31 band equalizer only has 1/3 octave resolution, and that's not nearly fine enough to smooth room modes. A parametric equalizer is necessary for this job.

Ha, glad I didn't just go out and buy this useless feedback destroyer. IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE RCA INPUTS!!

So I would have to re-buy a subwoofer cable (which I just recently bought a 25' one from monoprice) so it is a RCA to 1/4. How ****ing lame. Stop recommending this crap without telling people what they are getting into.

Yes, you are getting into the exotic RCA to 1/4" adapter, available at any Radio Shack. :eek:

He's all yours Terry. Apparently his momma taught him that insulting people is the way to get them to help him. :)

Yes, you are getting into the exotic RCA to 1/4" adapter, available at any Radio Shack. :eek:

Point being, I already ordered a RCA to RCA subwoofer cable, 25 feet worth, a few weeks back. But since the Behringer is pure crap, and doesn't have RCA inputs (what a pile of junk) I am not even going to bother buying another cable, no matter how easy it is. Its all about adapting to what I have, not having to re-buy a entire stock of cables, wires, and all sorts of other junk.

Also, I already bought the ART 31-band EQ. With Rives test CD, it should be far more than enough EQing than I need. I am, after all, not in some professional studio EQing a sub for some fancy Hollywood shindig. I seriously doubt the 31-band EQ with Rives cant give me the same results as the alternative, pain in the ass way.

Point being, I already ordered a RCA to RCA subwoofer cable, 25 feet worth, a few weeks back. But since the Behringer is pure crap, and doesn't have RCA inputs (what a pile of junk) I am not even going to bother buying another cable, no matter how easy it is. Its all about adapting to what I have, not having to re-buy a entire stock of cables, wires, and all sorts of other junk.

Also, I already bought the ART 31-band EQ. With Rives test CD, it should be far more than enough EQing than I need. I am, after all, not in some professional studio EQing a sub for some fancy Hollywood shindig. I seriously doubt the 31-band EQ with Rives cant give me the same results as the alternative, pain in the ass way. Translation, "I'm dumb, I don't want to learn anything, and I'm damn proud of it, so screw you guys for trying to help me." :)

Translation, "I'm dumb, I don't want to learn anything, and I'm damn proud of it, so screw you guys for trying to help me." :)

I'll admit some were helpful. But some others were just arrogant, providing nothing in terms of real help.

Help would be telling me what I would need, where I need to go for information, what cables, hardware or any other things that would be useful. All I got was the absolute worst help possible "Use this, everything else is crap"

You guys really need to work on your 'helping others' because for a forum specifically for asking questions, its pretty bad here. Swarming with arrogant flaming know-it-alls.

And yes, I did learn something, I learned that some of the more 'respected post whores' aren't really that bright.

I seriously doubt the 31-band EQ with Rives cant give me the same results as the alternative, pain in the ass way.

I will say this and then quickly and quietly back out of this thread:

Physics is not your bitch, you are its. Until you learn this, you will not be successful with tackling room related acoustical phenomena.

We all start off as ignorant fools, why don't you take the first step and check out FA Everest's Master Handbook of Acoustics, or start listening to what the professionals like Terry have to say and get out of that intellectual rut.

Not everybody has the gift of being able to communicate in completely non-offending ways. Don't wear your heart on the cuff of your shirt especially when you are the learner and there are many others who are comparatively more learned.

Man, the only flamer is you. If having to buy a $4 adapter from RS can throw you into a rage proclaiming everything you see as "crap", I hate to think what your personal life must be like. Your thread title says it all. You have backed yourself into a corner buying products that can't work, won't work, not ever. Your bass is bad and it will always be bad because of your attitude. For the same money and a bit of work, you might have actually helped your bass but you chose not to. Your loss.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103711&cp=&sr=1&origkw=rca+1%2F4%22+phone+adapter&kw=rca+1%2F4+phone+adapter&parentPage=search

I guess you don't need our help then........:rolleyes:

2/17/08 -- Or do I have to buy something like this for around $300. ART 352 31 band graphic equalizer

2/19/08 -- Also, I already bought the ART 31-band EQ.

He really wanted your approval guys, and nothing else.

2/17/08 --

2/19/08 --

He really wanted your approval guys, and nothing else.
He ain't gonna get it. He bought the wrong tool for the job -- a screwdriver to pound in nails! :)

Contrary to most amatures. I am a skilled professional Audio engineer with hundreds of album creds. Here's the real deal. You can RTA and eq yourself to death. If the room sounds good that is the key. If the room sounds bad... fix the room. When it comes right down to it your listening environment has to please you period. When you mix for the public at large you have to worry about what peice of garbage some kid is going to play your work on. Here the end user is you. So please yourself. A perfectly eq'd room sounds like a perfectly eq'd room and if you think that sound good you're wrong. It just sounds like a perfectly eq'd room