http://lh4.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7onM9oK2YI/AAAAAAAAASc/7LpLRD-ovC8/SV400280.JPG?imgmax=512


The picture above is of digital captions using the worst-looking font from a coupon-eligible digital-to-analog converter box. Imagine if you were to spend your $40 coupon on a coupon-eligible converter box (CECB) where all the caption choices looked as hard to read as those captions do. It could happen.

The purpose of this thread is to provide a central place for evaluations of how well closed captioning issues have been addressed in the different coupon-eligible converter boxes (CECBs). While all CECBs are required to relay CEA-608 caption data to analog TVs, only some of them offer the option of decoding CEA-708 caption data, which provides the user the ability to adjust the captioning to one's own preferences.

The main focus of this thread is on evaluating CECBs that decode CEA-708 captions to provide advanced captioning features. However, if CECBs that don't decode CEA-708 captions have any problems relaying the CEA-608 captions used by analog TVs, that's important information as well.

Collecting such evaluations is highly desirable as there have been many problems reported with captioning for some set-top boxes used for pay TV services, and it is important to evaluate how well captioning is implemented before people who rely on captioning use $40 coupons on converter boxes with poorly designed captioning features. (Once the $40 coupon is used, the customer may not be able to get the value of the coupon back, and there may be no other good converter boxes suitable for the customer at the retailer.)

Advantages of Advanced Closed Captioning

Well-implemented advanced closed captioning can significantly improve the lives of consumers who currently have problems with their existing televisions or other equipment:

Many older TVs had very poorly designed analog caption fonts that are difficult to read and which require being seated close to the TV.
People with impaired vision may not be able to read the analog captions on their current TVs at all but could find that some digital caption fonts can be clear and large enough for them to read easily.
Being able to choose a translucent or transparent background for captions can allow sports fans and their friends to watch televised games without having to miss information that would otherwise be obscured by the solid background of analog captions.
Using colored captions or background can help people identify more quickly where the captions are, especially when the captions are showing up in unpredictable places on a screen with competing text.
Large captions can allow people to view television from longer distances than they could before.
CECBs that provide digital captions can also provide captions for analog TVs that do not have built-in captions, such as small ones less than 13 inches or very old TVs, or even monitors that have composite video inputs.
CECBs with digital captions may even be able to do a better job of receiving captions over digital channels than some HDTVs do; I have found this to be the case for my own Sharp HDTV.
If desired, CECBs with digital captions can produce open-captioned video signals that can then be recorded on TiVos, DVDs or other electronic media, and potentially be converted to a form that can be viewed on computers, portable video players, etc. For example, the TiVo Desktop software which transfers TiVo recordings to the user's computer has not provided decoding of captioned programs, but open-captioned recordings could provide access to such recordings for the first time to many deaf and hard of hearing TiVo users.

CECBs with Digital (Advanced) Closed Captioning

Which coupon-eligible converter boxes (CECBs) are supposedly offering advanced closed captioning? This information is still being collected as information becomes available. (Manufacturers often aren't specifying whether they provided advanced closed captioning, CEA-708 or DTVCCs; simply saying they provide closed captioning isn't adequate information as all CECBs are required to pass through the "analog" caption data that should be in the televised signal.) The following are two source of information that are still being updated, and which also list additional features of interest:

http://octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_list_wip.xls

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13959917#post13959917
(Updated May 27, 2008)

(The posting above contains a zipped Excel file.)


Here's my own current and not necessarily complete list of CECBs with advanced closed captioning (and some other features):
Apex DT250 Link is to negative review on separate thread.
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14328435#post14328435)Artec T3APro (http://www.freedtvshop.com/fdtv/converters/t3aproUM.pdf)Caption button does not work with digital captions decoded by box
CASTi CAX-01 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/CASTi_CAX-01.html) (CC button on remote)
Channel Master CM-7000 (http://www.freedtvshop.com/fdtv/converters/cm7000.php) (S-video, 24-hr EPG) First review of captioning
Daewoo DAC-100 (https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=897929&native_or_pdf=pdf)
DigitalSTREAM D2A1D10 (S-video)
DigitalSTREAM D2A1D20 (S-video)
DigitalSTREAM DTX9900 (http://www.mediafire.com/?4d0olvrj3lt) (8-hour EPG) First review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14031577#post14031577)
GE 22730 (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/DTVconverters.html) (Eight-day EPG)
Goodmind DTA1000 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/support-files/goodmind_dta1000_user_manual.pdf) (Eight-day EPG, Smart antenna interface)
Insignia NS-DXA1 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Insignia_NS-DXA1.html) CC button on remote First review of captioning
Kingbox K8V8
Magnavox TB100MW9 (http://www.funai-corp.com/6pdf/om/TB100MW9.pdf)
MicroGEM MG2000 (http://ezdigitaltv.com/support-files/microgem_2000_dtv_converter_box_user_manual.pdf)
MicroProse MPI-500 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Microprose_MPI-500.html) (Can pass through analog channels, has buttons on box for menu, channels, etc.)
Philco TB100HH9 (http://ezdigitaltv.com/support-files/philco_tb100hh9_user_manual.pdf)(Can pass through analog channels, no CC button on remote) First Review of Captioning (incomplete)
Philco TB150HH9 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Philco_TB150HH9.html) (Can pass through analog channels, Smart Antenna interface)
RCA DTA800
RCA DTA800B (Smart Antenna interface) First review of captioning CC button, no caption preview, no SAP button
TATUNG TDB3000 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Tatung_TDB3000.html) (Smart Antenna interface)
Tivax STB-T9 (http://www.tivax.com/manual/STB-T9%20%28AT2008%29%20%20English%20User.pdf) (Smart Antenna interface)
Zenith DTT900 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Zenith_DTT900_DTV.html) Same as Insignia NS-DXA1 above
Zentech DF2000 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Zentech_DF2000.html) (7 day EPG, CC button, analog pass-through?)

The links for the different CECBs are generally to documents or postings that show that the CECB has digital (CEA-708) closed captioning decoding.

Many of the above CECBs may have other noteworthy features, and may have CC buttons on the remote control, but this information was not available at the time of this writing. All reported features should be confirmed prior to purchase by examining the user manual or other public documents. Please note that the menus for some CC buttons may not be well-designed.

Note: S-video should provide sharper digital captions, but many analog TVs do not have S-video pass-through. If you have a TiVo or other recording device with S-video inputs, however, you may be able to use the S-video output from the CECB for higher-quality analog recordings.

Evaluating Digital Closed Captioning

Some of the issues to consider in evaluating the captioning features associated with a CECB are:


Which digital closed captioning features are available, including enhanced ones such as changing the alignment of the captions and adding an edge to the text to make it thicker and bolder, and the number of colors available.
Whether or not a button is available on the remote control to operate closed captions directly
The choices in the menu activated by the CC button and how usable the menu is
If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font provided for those analog captions
The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions, particularly the default font
The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for the digital captions, and how well this predicts the largest font style.
How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming: do the longest lines of the largest captions fill the entire width of the screen, and if not, please describe what proportion of the screen is filled by the largest captions.
How usable the optional translucent background is in providing sufficient contrast to the characters used in the captioning (if it is too transparent, it will be difficult to read the captions)
Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect analog captions automatically if there are no digital captions, jerky movements of captions, cut-off captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.
Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button to switch to a second audio channel (for descriptive video services), a raised dot on the 5 button, raised dots on the Power button or other buttons (useful for low vision or blind users), or other accessibility issues.
How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings; please indicate whether it advises choosing Service 1 or explains how to choose it. If you have found the user manual online, please provide the URL if it is not already provided in the first posting.
Whether the CECB has crashed or otherwise malfunctioned, and what the circumstances were; this question is best answered after extensive use of digital closed captioning with different channels. Please indicate how many hours or days you've been testing the CECB with digital closed captioning turned on.

Note: On some pay TV set-top boxes, changing the font or the manner of display has resulted in severe captioning problems. This is why I've recommended below that evaluators be very systematic and change the settings as little as possible until a baseline has been established for the proper functioning of the different captioning features. I've also geared the suggestions towards evaluators who will want to know whether the box is suitable for their own captioning needs. Evaluators who already have a digital TV or who don't need captioning for themselves will probably want to do a shorter evaluation by not checking for captions on all the channels, but please answer the questions above.

Suggested Evaluation Process

Please look at the other evaluations that have been done to get an idea of some of the issues that have been seen.

If evaluating a converter box for the first time, I suggest not changing any of the display settings on the converter box after completing the initial set-up, the auto-tuning, and the addition of any channels that weren't automatically detected. It's probably best to use the better video cable available to you, which would be either S-video, if available, or composite video. Please indicate what kind of cable you're using in your evaluation. Please also indicate what size TV you are using, its manufacturer and the approximate year or period of manufacture, and whether it has any relevant known features like advanced comb filtering (which can improve the display of the captions). Also indicate if you're using a DVR like Tivo. Analog captions decoded by analog TV: The converter box should send to the analog TV any analog closed caption data (CEA-608 captions) that is being transmitted by the television station, and may do this automatically. Leave the analog captioning activated on your analog TV and determine if closed caption data is being transmitted from the programs (not the commercials, which don't have to be captioned) on all the digital channels. Make a record of any digital channel that is not transmitting analog caption data as this will be rare. If you don't see captions on the TV, doublecheck the user manual to see whether it is necessary to turn this feature on and how to do so.

CC button on remote in analog caption mode: Push the relevant button on the remote to learn what it does (if it exists). It may be called something other than CC or CCD, like "Subtitle." The button may place words on the screen that are covered up by the TV's analog captions. If so, turn off the TV's captions. Make a note of the menu choices for the caption button when the converter box is in analog mode. For example, you may see something like OFF, CC1, CC2, Text1, Text2, OFF display successively at the bottom of the screen to indicate the current status of the caption decoding. (CC1 is the standard setting for receiving analog captions in the broadcast language; CC2, CC3 and CC4 and the Text options are rarely used.)

Evaluate digital captions and existence of "Caption Preview:" Make sure the analog captions from the TV are turned off. Look at the user manual's section on digital closed captions to find out how to activate the digital captions, and follow the instructions for activating the digital closed captions from the converter box. (Do not assume the CC button will let you do this; you will probably have to get into the menu system of the CECB using the Menu button on the remote.) Select Font 0 or the default font, Service 1, and CC1 for the analog CC. Note whether there is a "Caption Preview" immediately shown when you change and select a feature. Make sure to leave the other settings on the default settings, and exit the menu.

Presence of digital captions on digital channels: Check whether you receive digital captions from the programs on all the major digital channels, especially those that were transmitting analog captions. Make a note of which channels do not appear to be broadcasting digital captions and which ones are. You may find that some stations are broadcasting both digital and analog captions as required by law, while some stations are not properly broadcasting both types of captions (which is not the fault of the converter box), and in some other cases, some stations may be exempted from being required to broadcast any captions at all. You'll need to know which stations to use for testing all the captioning features of your converter box and not to blame the converter box for being unable to decode captions that aren't being broadcast.

Check how large the "large" setting is, optionally for different fonts: After checking all the digital channels for digital captions, then change the size of the font to Large if you have not already done so. Observe whether there is any abnormal display with long lines of characters. Please change the font styles and observe whether the captions are adequately large in all the different font choices (there may be significant differences in size between some of the font styles). Determine which font choice provides the largest captions, and if the largest captions are larger than the captions your analog TV can already provide. Estimate what proportion of the width of the screen is taken up by the longest lines of captions (32 characters) and whether the captions display completely and properly.

Change other digital captioning features: Go ahead and try changing other features. Option: If you have a digital camera, consider taking pictures of the "caption preview" when you change the font, and then snapping several shots of the captions. (To avoid jitter, put the camera on a tripod or still surface.) Take another shot of the "caption preview" for the font you just photographed, and then a new shot of the caption preview for the next font, and so forth. Doing this helps you track what fonts were being displayed on the pictures. (I used the free Picasa program from Google to crop the pictures, create descriptive captions for each picture, and to upload the pictures; it can be downloaded from http://picasa.google.com)

CC button on remote in digital caption mode: Check whether the menu for the CC button changed when you activated digital captioning, and note what the menu choices are. For example, you may now see "CS1" which indicates digital captions using Service 1 (using the primary language broadcast by the station).

Other evaluation issues: Please address the other issues raised in the numbered list above, and create a separate posting on this thread with the name of the CECB that you've evaluated. An evaluation of one CECB has already been posted following this post. Your posted evaluation can be updated with new input by editing your own posting.

FYI, I recommend buying a converter box for evaluation purposes during a trial period and NOT using the $40 coupon until you're sure that you're pleased with the converter box. It may even be useful to evaluate several converter boxes. I also found it very helpful to evaluate the converter box next to an HDTV so that I could see whether captioning was any different on the HDTV. (Of course, lots of people won't be able to do that.)

Before buying a converter box, however, you may want to doublecheck whether there are actually any TV stations in your area broadcasting digital captions for their digital channels. To do this, you may need to use a neighbor's HDTV, turn on their digital closed captions, and take a note of which digital channels appear to be receiving digital closed captions. You can also go to http://www.antennaweb.org and get specific information about your own address. Finally, you can use http://www.tvguide.com/listings with your zip code to look for digital channels that use decimal points (like 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 7.2).

Thanks for reading this far, and I hope you'll help out! Tons of people need help to figure out which converter box will work best for them, and it's going to be very difficult for them to get this information except through detailed evaluations from people who fully understand the importance of good captions.

To find out where to buy the converter boxes, try:

http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box_Retailers.html

*If there are CECBs without digital closed captioning features that do have a CC button, please feel free to mention those boxes here.

Dana Mulvany

Here's my evaluation of the Insignia digital-to-analog converter box, which I purchased at Best Buy on 2/14/08. (This is the same CECB as the Zenith, but is simply produced under a different name.)

NOTE: I have used some pictures here, but it should be understood that these pictures are not high resolution (the camera used had only 4 mb pixels) and do not accurately represent how the captions actually look in reality. The pictures should only be used as an approximation of what the captions look like. I would much rather see pictures from professional photographers of these captions, so if someone else can take better pictures, please do so. (What would be even better is for the manufacturers to provide pictures of different captioning options on their web sites so that customers can judge for themselves what they might expect to see.)

I copied the list of issues from the first post and inserted my answers between the numbered issues:


1. The availability of digital closed captioning features:

Yes. The Insignia offers the following features for customizing digital captions:

Style, Size, Font, Text Color, Text Opacity, Background Color, Background Opacity, Edge Type, Edge Color.

Eight font choices were available, with Font 0 appearing to be the one for receiving font styles selected by the program or broadcaster.

Eight colors were available: White, Black, (bright) Red, (bright) Green, (dark) Blue, (light mustard) Yellow, (bright) Magenta, (bright) Cyan.

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control:

Yes (marked as CCD)

3. The usability of the menu activated by the CC button:

Poor (changed from very, very poor because other remote controls for other CECBs may be worse!). The first push of the button shows the current setting at the bottom of the screen. If using Service 1 (the setting for English digital captions), each push steps through the next Service (up through Service 6), then through CC1, CC2, CC3, CC4, Text1, Text2, Text3, Text4, Off. It thus takes FOURTEEN pushes of the CCD button to go to the OFF position, and there is no way to go back one step if you've gone too far. When the channel is changed, the captions go back to what was programmed (i.e., Service 1 if using digital captions).

4. The ease of reading the font provided for analog captions decoded through the converter box:

Poor to Fair. I think a font with clean lines is much easier to read. See the picture of the analog captions below (darker than normal due to flash from camera):

http://lh6.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7omadoK2MI/AAAAAAAAAQ4/dj78laQN6_c/SV400265-1.JPG?imgmax=512


5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions:

Many of the fonts are too thin and seem to flicker, even when they're large, so I would judge them as poor. There are about three out of eight fonts that I would judge as very usable when using a solid black background:

http://lh5.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7ooHNoK2nI/AAAAAAAAAUY/j-iaaxtnka0/SV400265-2.JPG?imgmax=512

Font 0

http://lh3.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7oo0toK22I/AAAAAAAAAWs/hgVUMnfsRy4/SV400288.JPG?imgmax=512

Font 3

http://lh3.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7onptoK2fI/AAAAAAAAATU/XHaENph7cqc/SV400291.JPG?imgmax=720

Font 7

6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for the digital captions, and how well this predicts the largest font style:

Yes. However, the caption preview doesn't accurately indicate how large the size of the captions would actually be, and there can be significant differences in size according to the choice of the font. The preview showed the effect of making changes in the edges, in the color of the text, etc., which is very important, since the process of making changes in the settings already takes a lot of steps.

http://lh5.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7onWNoK2aI/AAAAAAAAASs/WEJmlRmRkwc/SV400283.JPG?imgmax=640

Caption Preview of Font 7

http://lh3.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7onftoK2cI/AAAAAAAAAS8/i7aV6am8tiM/SV400286.JPG?imgmax=640

Font 7 (You can see the maximum number of 32 characters take up the entire width of the screen, which is actually good; other fonts didn't seem to get this large)

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision viewers):

Font 7 appeared to be the font that could become the largest and spanned the entire width of the screen (see picture above). The large-sized characters were much bigger than the ones provided by my Sharp HDTV.

8. How well the optional translucent background provides a contrast to the characters used in the captioning:

Poor (for basic fonts). However, one can compensate by adding a uniform, depressed or raised edge to the characters in the same color of the font, which provides better contrast. Otherwise, it is difficult to read the characters against the translucent background, in part because the fonts tend to be too thin and can't provide enough contrast.

9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect analog captions if there are no digital captions, jerky movements, cut-off captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.:

a. The Insignia did not detect analog captions automatically when there were no digital captions (from the SD channels produced by a local PBS station). I either had to switch manually to CC1 in order to get analog captions decoded, or I had to turn on my TV's captions in order to see the analog captions.

b. When there were long sentences using Font 7 in large size, there would be sudden, jerky movements of all the captions to the left so that they could all be seen. This was because the captions would start off indented but then have to be jerked back to the left margin when the lines of text got very long. (I don't know if this is a converter box problem, a transmission problem, or simply an oversight in standards for captions.)

c. The Insignia would display captions so low on my convex Magnavox TV that the captions on the left and right would not be completely visible on the bottoms even when using letter-box. (However, the captions were still legible, so this would not be a deal-breaker for me.) This might not happen with flat TVs.

d. When I took pictures of Font 0 and Font 7 captions, a close examination of the pictures showed that the solid background behind some characters had unexpectedly become transparent or clear, which made some of the characters illegible. I only noticed this in the pictures, and not during live viewing. I'm not sure how much of a problem this is or will be.

http://lh3.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7oljtoK2FI/AAAAAAAAAUg/RosT-scDjB4/SV400267-2.JPG?imgmax=1024

Font 0: Look closely at last word

http://lh5.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7ooKNoK2oI/AAAAAAAAAUk/T16uSbXhg5c/SV400268-2.JPG?imgmax=1024

Font 0: Look at the background behind the "T" in the last word; it's missing but a faint "T" can be seen.

http://lh5.google.com/dana.mulvany/R7ontNoK2gI/AAAAAAAAATc/r2Bdp1RZzZg/SV400292.JPG?imgmax=640

Font 7: Look closely at "21st" and "Century"

e. There is no option to specify the alignment of the digital captions, although my Sharp HDTV provides this option. This would have allowed the viewer to move captions away from an area that is important to watch (such as the bottom of the screen during football games).

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP button, a raised dot on the 5 button, and dots on the Power button (useful for low vision or blind users):

The control has an SAP button, a raised dot on the 5, and dots on the Power button. The remote looks usable by low vision and blind users as the buttons are well spaced. The SAP button shows the current language of the audio on the bottom of the screen. I personally have not yet verified whether the SAP button actually worked to provide a secondary audio program.

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings.

This user manual takes less than half a page of the manual and doesn't explain that most users should select "Service 1." I've now seen some other user manuals that do much better job explaining the different features, such as that of the CASTi CAX-01. I'd judge this manual as poor.

12. Whether the CECB has crashed and what the circumstances were.


The Insignia crashed five times within three weeks. I was able to take pictures of three of the crashes, and it appeared that commercials were showing during those crashes. During the last crash, there was a black screen, so I'm not sure whether a commercial was happening or if there was a transition to a commercial. I think three crashes occurred on the my20 channel, and another occurred with WJLA (local ABC affiliate) and either WTTG (local Fox affiliate) or WETA (local PBS affiliate using SD channel). All those stations have problems transmitting captions over digital channels in some way, so I suspect that something about the way those stations transmitted captioning may have precipitated the crashes (though of course, the CECB shouldn't be crashing anyway).

Overall opinion:

In my opinion, the most important thing to evaluate about captions is how easy they are to read on the screen and whether it's possible to come up with an arrangement that works well for the individual. (Having the ability to use a translucent background can be important for people who don't want the captions to block out information on the screen, such as that present during a football game.) With enough tweaking, I was able to get fairly good captions.

I liked that the large-size captions actually are fairly tall and much larger via the Insignia than they are on my Sharp HDTV (which seems to do a poor job in this respect).

Font 0 worked well with the following setting: white text, white uniform edge, large size, translucent black or blue background.

Font 3, despite my earlier description of it being usable, still isn't perfect. Uppercase "M"s and "W"s look polluted by nearby black pixels and "busy" due to "dot crawl." It looks much more even in large size than in standard size, however.

Font 7 did not work well in the large size because the automatic indentation from the left side present for some channels required long sentences to jerk suddenly to the left margin when the words reached the right side. In the standard size, which I hadn't tried until 2/20/08, the "T" is below the height of the other letters and makes the text look uneven.

Thus I'd probably end up using Font 0 unless I was at a significant distance from the TV, in which case I might switch to Font 7.

The menu for the Insignia's CCD button is far too cumbersome, but it is still better to have a CC button than none at all. When there were no digital captions being transmitted, I would click the CC button seven times to get to the CC1 setting to see whether there were analog captions available. (My analog TV's remote does not have a CC button at all, so the Insignia's remote was better for getting to analog captions.)

The converter box doesn't automatically display analog captions when there are no digital captions. (However, TV stations are supposed to broadcast both digital and analog caption data for their digital programming, though at least four stations in the Washington, DC area are not doing so. )

The manufacturer did a poor job of selecting fonts for the captions, but at least there are some fonts that can be tweaked to be okay, and at least the captions can actually be large. It is troubling that the background apparently dropped out partially for the Font 0 as this font (probably the one that defaults to the font used by the program) may be the most popular one used, but this does not seem to be happening often at this time.

Another problem with the Insignia (not related to captioning) was that it didn't seem to automatically detect the best way of showing the picture, unlike my HDTV. I would frequently have to hit the Zoom button to pick a better display for the picture. However, this problem seems to have gone away the longer I used the Insignia, perhaps because I ended up manually setting channels to letterbox.

The picture quality is marvelous, but hopefully other converter boxes will do a great job with this as well. I'm hoping that converter boxes from other companies have been better designed to address the captioning issues. Unfortunately, despite all its problems, it could be that the Insignia is the best converter box out there for users of captions----because engineers may have done even worse at addressing captioning issues in other brands of converter boxes.

I returned the Insignia on March 13th, but also evaluated the Zenith, which has the same chip and remote control and functions just like the Insignia. As other people have noted, the Insignia and Zenith are the same products manufactured under different names; the only difference is in the user guides.


Added notes:

As of May 7th, the Insignia/Zenith CECBs appear to be the only CECBs I know of which can provide digital captions larger than the analog captions provided by my TV.

When I fast-forward a Tivo'ed program, the digital captions from the Zenith remain legible, while the captions from the DigitalStream CECB become incomplete and illegible.

Thus if I want to hurry up through a Tivo'ed program, I'm in luck if I'm using a Zenith/Insignia CECB but not if I'm using the DigitalStream CECB (which may depend on comb-filtering to look sharper).


Dana Mulvany
Rockville, MD


Here's a link to a video of the 708 captions provided by the Zenith DTT-900 CECB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORS0tC8JFw

Great points. Actually, the Insignia seems to have a nice font 0. Perhaps you can try the SAP with a PBS signal.

Great points. Actually, the Insignia seems to have a nice font 0.

Thanks, Dave. I had presented Font 0 as one of the three fonts that were very usable. For the other fonts, my camera often made them look thicker and better than they really were.

Perhaps you can try the SAP with a PBS signal.

I'm hard of hearing, so I may not be able to evaluate that feature well anyway. I'm also finding it difficult to find programs that use SAP.

You say in your piece, I recommend buying a converter box for evaluation purposes during a trial period and NOT using the $40 coupon until you're sure that you're pleased with the converter box.

Keep in mind that the coupon cannot be used after the purchase -- it can only apply to a box at the point of purchase. Of course, you can always buy a box without the coupon, then return it for a full refund, then buy a new box with the coupon.

Also, boxes bought with a coupon can be exchanged for another box, or returned, but only the out-of-pocket payment can be refunded.

-agc

You say in your piece,

Keep in mind that the coupon cannot be used after the purchase -- it can only apply to a box at the point of purchase. Of course, you can always buy a box without the coupon, then return it for a full refund, then buy a new box with the coupon.

Also, boxes bought with a coupon can be exchanged for another box, or returned, but only the out-of-pocket payment can be refunded.

-agc

The coupon CAN be used after the purchase (before its expiration date) if you follow the procedure above. If you're a person with a disability who uses the coupon without making sure the converter box will work for your needs, you can lose the value of the coupon, particularly since no other converter box at the store may work well for you either.

The Insignia has now crashed twice within the first week of purchase, and that might even be because I was using closed captioning. Unfortunately, engineers simply might not have run the box through its paces with all the different captioning features being turned on.

I put up a post and picture about the last crash at the following high-traffic AVS thread to get more input; I also noticed problems with the audio and video going out of sync, and the captions getting delayed the longer the box was on:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13176692#post13176692

Here's a picture of the crash (the second one):

http://lh4.google.com/dana.mulvany/R70NgNoK26I/AAAAAAAAAX8/rV7UZpd2B9Q/SV400261-3.JPG?imgmax=512

Dana

I got an HDTV Tuner several years back, Motorola HDT101, for my SD TV.
I wanted to enjoy DTV, but my wife who is hard of hearing needs CC.
The problem was that some of the stations do CC OK over analog,
but on the HD feed, the CC was all screwed up.

I sure hope that by the time the analog shutoff come around,
the stations figure out how to do DTV CC correctly.

Bob Diaz

I got an HDTV Tuner several years back, Motorola HDT101, for my SD TV.
I wanted to enjoy DTV, but my wife who is hard of hearing needs CC.
The problem was that some of the stations do CC OK over analog,
but on the HD feed, the CC was all screwed up.

I sure hope that by the time the analog shutoff come around,
the stations figure out how to do DTV CC correctly.

Bob Diaz

I'm afraid many TV stations won't fix their captioning problems until people take the time to contact them and let them know there's a problem. Some TV stations probably don't even know they have a problem.

Getting a digital-to-analog converter box and turning on the captions can show you what the current state of affairs is.

I'm going to have to do a massive letter-writing campaign myself now that I understand that some TV stations in my area are not transmitting both 608 (analog) and 708 (digital) captions as required by law. When they don't transmit both, that's when various people are going to have problems receiving captions. I can't get captions on my Sharp HDTV for some programs on digital channels even though I can get captions from the converter box for those same programs. That's probably due to problems with transmissions from the TV station. :(

I'm afraid many TV stations won't fix their captioning problems until people take the time to contact them and let them know there's a problem. Some TV stations probably don't even know they have a problem.

Getting a digital-to-analog converter box and turning on the captions can show you what the current state of affairs is.

I'm going to have to do a massive letter-writing campaign myself now that I understand that some TV stations in my area are not transmitting both 608 (analog) and 708 (digital) captions as required by law. When they don't transmit both, that's when various people are going to have problems receiving captions. I can't get captions on my Sharp HDTV for some programs on digital channels even though I can get captions from the converter box for those same programs. That's probably due to problems with transmissions from the TV station. :(

Your Sharp has an ATSC tuner, right? If it's getting a good signal, then CC'ing should be working. Maybe the problem is with your TV.

Your Sharp has an ATSC tuner, right? If it's getting a good signal, then CC'ing should be working. Maybe the problem is with your TV.

The Sharp HDTV gets analog and digital captions just fine for most channels, like NBC and CBS. That means that the transmission from the station is making a difference in whether the TV receives captions. It also seems from other sources that ABC, FOX and PBS stations have frequently had problems nationwide with their captions, though there are non-broadcast networks that also have problems.

The inability to get captions on some channels is probably a reflection of a problem at the station end.

Dana

The Sharp HDTV gets analog and digital captions just fine for most channels, like NBC and CBS. That means that the transmission from the station is making a difference in whether the TV receives captions. It also seems from other sources that ABC, FOX and PBS stations have frequently had problems nationwide with their captions, though there are non-broadcast networks that also have problems.

The inability to get captions on some channels is probably a reflection of a problem at the station end.

Dana

Oh, so you mean the problem is with the digital CC encoder somewhere upstream. I thought you were talking about the RF waves being sent by a station.

Oh, so you mean the problem is with the digital CC encoder somewhere upstream. I thought you were talking about the RF waves being sent by a station.

I don't mean that, although that might be the case. I think the affiliates of a network may tend to use the same equipment (that's true for Fox as all Fox stations nationwide had or need to upgrade equipment to fix a problem causing a delay with captions), so they could have similar problems with captions on their digital channels even if there's no problem with the feed. We don't know if the network feed is the problem, if it's the stations' equipment or something else. The point is, however, that captioning problems that show up on a TV can be the result of problems outside the TV, and not be an indication that there's something wrong with the TV.

Many American viewers who are not necessarily "hearing impaired" use closed captioning at certain times. Closed captioning is particularly effective in public lounge areas of restaurants, bars and other locations with a lot of ambient noise. Even in the home, some viewers prefer viewing as well as seeing the spoken dialogue.

While the broadcasters may bear much of the blame for these problems, I recall NTIA's specifications referred to the importance of the "robustness" of the STB design. While that may have referred to hack-resistance, it also presumably means the CECBs should be freeze-resistant and crash resistant.

Very interesting stuff - the fields of closed captioning, audio description and sign language interpretation are areas where digital TV offers potential for huge improvements over analogue - but also huge pitfalls.

Over here in the UK our OTA system uses a new closed caption system called DVB Subtitles - which works like DVD subtitles, with the broadcaster sending a bit image, not text that is rendered by the receiver.

This means we can't alter our type size as it appears you guys can, but it does mean that broadcasters decide the typeface not the box makers, so viewers get the same result irrespective of box. The UK broadcasters worked with disability organisation to produce the "Tiresias" typeface that is really clear for those who are both hard of hearing and suffer reduced vision.

http://www.tiresias.org/fonts/index.htm

The broadcasters decides the size and position of the characters (they are usually relocated to accommodate name captions) and the system supports colours, so different characters in drama have their dialogue in different hues, making it easier to follow quick dialogue. It is possible to have multiple subtitle streams, with most boxes, like DVD players, having a default language choice for channels with multiple language streams (In Wales thre are shows made in Welsh language with both optional English translatin and Welsh hard-of-hearing subtitles) Normally you just press a "Subtitles" button and it shows the subtitles of the selected language (or if there is only one stream it shows that)

The very sensible US "Closed Caption on Mute" facility isn't widespread in the UK - though this may stem from our analogue TV system where subtitles were just a page number (888) on the multiple page number teletext system (News on 100s, Sport on 300s, Weather and Travel on 400s)

Satellite broadcasters are using the older character based technology - more similar to closed captions - though the main satellite platform uses a much better typeface to render it in the box.

I wonder if any US boxes will adopt Tiresias - it is already widely used not just for subtitles but for a lot of public signage in buildings, on train station indicator boards etc.

This means we can't alter our type size as it appears you guys can, but it does mean that broadcasters decide the typeface not the box makers, so viewers get the same result irrespective of box. The UK broadcasters worked with disability organisation to produce the "Tiresias" typeface that is really clear for those who are both hard of hearing and suffer reduced vision.

http://www.tiresias.org/fonts/index.htm



Great input here, and thanks for the reference to the Tiresias font!

The choice of font makes such a huge difference. I'm concerned that many caption fonts could cause eye strain.

On a different topic, I'm realizing now that when I look at my Magnavox TV's analog captions, there's no flickering---the captions are absolutely still. With the captions from the Insignia, there's a sense of movement; the captions are somehow created and fundamentally look differently than the ones from the TV. The characters don't look completely white. This can't be captured though photos, I'm afraid, and it would be hard to capture through video.

The captions from my HDTV are crisp and "still" like the Magnavox's. The ones from the Insignia somehow look like they're made by moving pixels while the other ones don't.




The very sensible US "Closed Caption on Mute" facility isn't widespread in the UK


This can be a handy feature on my TVs' remote controls. For example, when I'm not getting captions on a digital channel from the Insignia, I can put the TV's remote control on MUTE, which turns on the analog captions, and then press the Insignia's CC button six times to go to the CC1 mode, then turn off the Mute and get sound and CCs again. (The Insignia does not offer the CC on Mute option.)


I wonder if any US boxes will adopt Tiresias - it is already widely used not just for subtitles but for a lot of public signage in buildings, on train station indicator boards etc.

It would certainly be helpful to offer that as a choice. I haven't heard about or seen that font before.


Dana

With regard to the "movement" of the captions on the Insignia box - I suspect this may be because the Insignia is inserting the captions in the composite domain, whereas TVs may insert them in the RGB domain after composite decoding, resulting in a much cleaner result.

(UK analogue TVs insert their subtitles in the RGB domain usually - meaning they are very clean and clear)

As for the Tiresias fount - it was developed in the UK by UK broadcasters in association with the RNIB (Royal National Institute for the Blind) so that it was as clear as possible for visually impaired viewers who also had a hearing impairment and I believe the RNID (Royal National Institute for the Deaf) were also, of course, involved.

I think the typeface may have been a more commercial proposition initially than it is now - it is certainly becoming pretty widespread in the UK. It has a clean, sans serif, appearance, with improved distinction between similar characters like i, l, 1 etc. (First impressions remind me of the London Underground typeface - also very clear and classic)

For info - this is what UK satellite viewers get (it is a hybrid, I believe, using World Systems Teletext packet data, the same text based system as used on analogue TV, but rendered in a more modern manner) on the dominant UK satellite platform (Sky Digital) :
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1682/p1000472uw4.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1000472uw4.jpg)

(You can see the use of multiple colours for different speakers)

And this is the same broadcast on OTA Digital, with the DVB subtitles system using Tiresias. The OTA receiver is now about 6 years old, and is one of the first small SD DVB-T adaptors from Pace, though the subtitles look the same on all OTA DTVs as the fount is bitmapped by the broadcasters. This box is pretty much the same in performance terms to the UK DVB-T adaptors now selling for around US$30-50 in UK supermarkets.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/769/p1000474fx6.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1000474fx6.jpg)

IMHO the second is clearer and easier to read - though less bold.

Both screenshots were from my 8 year old 16:9 SD CRT TV (am not in my usual location!) - and the in-vision signing is because the overnight the BBC repeat public service shows with added in-vision BSL (British Sign Language). BSL signing for a proportion of broadcasts is a requirement for all UK digital OTA broadcasters. Both are from the BBC One London SD 576/50i network feed - the first via satellite DVB-S, the second via OTA DVB-T.

Both satellite and OTA set top boxes were connected RGB analogue SD (576/50i) not composite PAL, hence no chroma/luma interference and sharp chroma on the receiver rendered graphics.

(Apologies for photos - taken quickly on a compact)

With regard to the "movement" of the captions on the Insignia box - I suspect this may be because the Insignia is inserting the captions in the composite domain, whereas TVs may insert them in the RGB domain after composite decoding, resulting in a much cleaner result.

Wow! I'm so glad you were able to share the cause of this difference here. Do you know if all converter boxes and other external devices would have to insert the captions in the composite domain? Or do the manufacturers have a choice about where and how to insert the captions?

Physiologically, I think there'd be a different effect on the eyes after reading the two different kinds of captions for several hours.


I think the typeface may have been a more commercial proposition initially than it is now - it is certainly becoming pretty widespread in the UK. It has a clean, sans serif, appearance, with improved distinction between similar characters like i, l, 1 etc. (First impressions remind me of the London Underground typeface - also very clear and classic)

All of that makes a good deal of sense. In the U.S., the manufacturers have a lot of latitude about what kind of fonts they can use. Unfortunately, it will be difficult for people to see what the captions actually look like in the store; most stores aren't set up with antennas so that the captions can be displayed in real-time, and the manufacturers don't provide pictures of the caption fonts that they've selected. That makes shopping for converter boxes with good captioning features pretty difficult. All the more reason for more U.S. residents to help out by sharing their evaluations here, if at all possible.

Dana
Rockville, MD

Wow! I'm so glad you were able to share the cause of this difference here.


I'm not saying it is the definite cause - just an educated guess. The screen grabs at the top of the thread show a lot of composite chroma/luma interference on the edges of the text that suggests that the it might be.


Do you know if all converter boxes and other external devices would have to insert the captions in the composite domain?


If the box connects using RF or composite then the captions are composite when they reach the receiver (though do DVD players connected composite exhibit the same artefacts?)

A component (or S-video for that matter) connection would minimise this (remove it in the case of component) - as, I suspect, does insertion in the TV rather than an external box. (I'm assuming US analogue TVs insert captions in the RGB / Component not composite domain - as European teletext subtitles are handled - I may be wrong. HDTVs are entirely component so should be fine)


Or do the manufacturers have a choice about where and how to insert the captions?


If the box only has composite/RF outputs then they have no choice - they are composite.


Physiologically, I think there'd be a different effect on the eyes after reading the two different kinds of captions for several hours.


Yep - I find the second, with Tiresias, much easier to read. All the OTA Digital Interactive text services are also using it, as does the BBCi Digital Text service on satellite, and it has been used on BBC DVD releases for years. It is just easier to read, and more comfortable to read.

As they say on the site - good design for visually impaired viewers is good design for us all...


All of that makes a good deal of sense. In the U.S., the manufacturers have a lot of latitude about what kind of fonts they can use. Unfortunately, it will be difficult for people to see what the captions actually look like in the store; most stores aren't set up with antennas so that the captions can be displayed in real-time, and the manufacturers don't provide pictures of the caption fonts that they've selected. That makes shopping for converter boxes with good captioning features pretty difficult. All the more reason for more U.S. residents to help out by sharing their evaluations here, if at all possible.

Dana
Rockville, MD

Yep - it looks like you have more choice in typefaces than we do - but that brings more latitude for good and bad. 'twas ever thus. Be very dull if every country was the same - we can all learn something from each other - which is why I enjoy hanging out here, and hope my posts from this side of the pond are occasionally of interest.

For info - this is what UK satellite viewers get (it is a hybrid, I believe, using World Systems Teletext packet data, the same text based system as used on analogue TV, but rendered in a more modern manner) on the dominant UK satellite platform (Sky Digital) :
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1682/p1000472uw4.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1000472uw4.jpg)

(You can see the use of multiple colours for different speakers)

This is the first time I've seen how the multiple colors are used. (And probably for anyone else reading this thread!) Thanks!




And this is the same broadcast on OTA Digital, with the DVB subtitles system using Tiresias. The OTA receiver is now about 6 years old, and is one of the first small SD DVB-T adaptors from Pace, though the subtitles look the same on all OTA DTVs as the fount is bitmapped by the broadcasters. This box is pretty much the same in performance terms to the UK DVB-T adaptors now selling for around US$30-50 in UK supermarkets.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/769/p1000474fx6.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1000474fx6.jpg)

IMHO the second is clearer and easier to read - though less bold.

Both satellite and OTA set top boxes were connected RGB analogue SD (576/50i) not composite PAL, hence no chroma/luma interference and sharp chroma on the receiver rendered graphics.

(Apologies for photos - taken quickly on a compact)

Your camera beats my camera, I think! :)

Note: I wrote the following bracketed sentences before seeing the response above:
[The new digital-to-analog converter boxes can only be connected via RF or composite, or in some cases, S-video.
Do you know if that will bode ill for captions in the composite domain? ]

BTW, the background behind the subtitles in the second picture is translucent, providing less contrast, while the background in the first picture is solid black. That's one reason why the second picture's subtitles would seem less bold, though I agree they look sharper than the subtitles in the first picture.

I bought it at Wal-Mart. I have tried 3 boxes and found that channel 6.1 has problems of displaying CC. When I first plug it in, all channels are ok.

BTW, the background behind the subtitles in the second picture is translucent, providing less contrast, while the background in the first picture is solid black. That's one reason why the second picture's subtitles would seem less bold, though I agree they look sharper than the subtitles in the first picture.

The other issue that may be relevant is aspect ratio.

AIUI the receiver ignores the aspect ratio of the underlying video - and so in some cases the font for the subtitles appears stretched when overlaid over 16:9 video and not stretched when over 4:3.

AIUI this is the case with SD satellite broadcasts - where 16:9 material is broadcast in 16:9 and 4:3 content is broadcast in 4:3 (with a few exceptions) rather than pillarboxed. Networks with mixed aspect ratio content actually alter the MPEG2 header to signal that the pixel aspect ratio has changed as they flip ratios.

However with OTA, the BBC pillarbox their 4:3 content (i.e. always broadcast a 16:9 raster, but fill the edges with black when pillarboxing - and also send an AFD to indicate that only the central portion is active) and I suspect the DVB subtitles are added over the pillarbox content in the receiver, so the DVB subs are always going to be considered to be rendered in 16:9, but have to be 4:3 safe so that once overlaid over 4:3 content, if the receiver goes into a 4:3 centre cut it also centre cuts the subtitle overlay, rather than squeezing the subtitles horizontally. Not sure.

Either that or the BBC have optimised their DVB fount for 16:9 content (pretty much everything is 16:9 apart from older reruns and the odd movie) as the Tiresias typeface as well as being a lighter typeface also appears the right shape, whereas the satellite subtitles always appear horizontally stretched in 16:9 and look better in 4:3...

Another thing I meant to mention - is the use of all caps. All but one of the closed caption screengrabs in this thread seems to use all capital letters - is this the norm? My understanding is that mixed case is less tiring to read for long periods, and also faster to read, but it is also more difficult to render aesthetically in a mono-space fount, rather than a proportional one.

Another thing I meant to mention - is the use of all caps. All but one of the closed caption screengrabs in this thread seems to use all capital letters - is this the norm?

Most of the screenshots have been of "live" closed captions for things like newscasts. These are done in real time by a trained person with a stenotype (like a court reporter) system. This does not have capital letters. Pre-recorded TV shows are more likely to have conventionally typed captions, which may or may not have mixed case. The analog CC standard over here always had upper and lower case letters as an option, but using all-capitals became a habit.

Most of the screenshots have been of "live" closed captions for things like newscasts. These are done in real time by a trained person with a stenotype (like a court reporter) system. This does not have capital letters. Pre-recorded TV shows are more likely to have conventionally typed captions, which may or may not have mixed case. The analog CC standard over here always had upper and lower case letters as an option, but using all-capitals became a habit.

That's interesting. We use also stenographers who type phonetically for live subtitling (many with a courtroom background), as well as a system called Re-speak (where an operator repeats dialogue into a voice recognition system trained to their voice only, and thus is much more reliable) as well. However our system has no problems with uppers and lowers - though it could be the UK and US stenography systems are different, or we have a system that intelligently capitalises? Just checked the Rugby coverage, and that is live subtitled in uppers and lowers.

I suspect there will be more and more live subtitling in the UK - as the BBC have committed to 100% subtitling by the end of this year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/policies/subtitles.shtml

We're at 95% for the main analogue services (BBC One and BBC Two) with 80% of the digital services (BBC Three, BBC Four, CBBC, CBeebies, News 24) I'm not sure if BBC Parliament is included...

We don't have the smooth scrolling that CC offers. For pre-subtitled content the text just cuts on and off - though sometimes two lines will be displayed at different times, but the first will stay up when the second has appeared, to better explain fast dialogue pacing. For live subtitling one word appears at a time, so it gives the impression of being typed as you watch. (This is effectively done by constantly re-sending the entire subtitle as each word is added)

The live operators also dynamically switch the colours so that the colour coding of speaker in interviews is still present on live shows, and also have the ability to reposition the subtitles to avoid obscuring name captions, sport scores etc.

One interesting aspect is that many subtitlers now work from home using an off-air feed of the channel they are subtitling, combined with a PC and a broadband or ISDN connection to send their live subtitles back to the broadcast station, and also to gain access to guide scripts which are often e-mailed by productions prior to transmission, so that the subtitler is aware of the spelling of names of guests and places that may appear, what the format of the show is going to be, and in some cases where pre-recorded elements are included in live shows there may be scripts for these provided electronically. There are subtitlers on remote islands in Scotland who do live subs for the BBC I believe.

The BBC is also working to ensure that its download and streaming programmes are accessible, with subtitles and audio description options being trialled. think subtitles on downloads and streaming is an area that is often overlooked - and will be increasingly important as we move away from channels to VOD etc.

I bought it at Wal-Mart. I have tried 3 boxes and found that channel 6.1 has problems of displaying CC. When I first plug it in, all channels are ok.

Thanks for the feedback that there's a problem.

Are you talking about problems with the pass-through of analog captions? Does the RCA DTA800 offer digital caption decoding?

What kinds of problems do you see with the captions from channel 6.1?

What is the network for the station that is broadcasting on 6.1?

Added note:

There's a chance that there's something about the transmission of the captions from the station that is causing a problem as time goes on. If we know what the network is of the affiliate that is broadcasting on 6.1, other users of the RCA DTA00 could try tuning to affiliates of that particular network just in case other affiliates of that same network have the same problem.


Dana

Thanks for the feedback that there's a problem.

Are you talking about problems with the pass-through of analog captions? Does the RCA DTA800 offer digital caption decoding?

What kinds of problems do you see with the captions from channel 6.1?

What is the network for the station that is broadcasting on 6.1?


Dana

The RCA DTA800B has digital CC'ing.

With regard to the "movement" of the captions on the Insignia box - I suspect this may be because the Insignia is inserting the captions in the composite domain, whereas TVs may insert them in the RGB domain after composite decoding, resulting in a much cleaner result.

(UK analogue TVs insert their subtitles in the RGB domain usually - meaning they are very clean and clear)



I happened across a mention of "dot crawl" which linked to the Wikipedia entry at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl

There's a picture illustrating dot crawl there.

Here's a quote from the entry above:

"Dot crawl can also make narrowly-spaced text difficult to read.

"Dot crawl has long been recognized as a problem by professionals since the creation of composite video, but was first widely noticed by the general public with the advent of Laserdiscs.

"Dot crawl can be greatly reduced by using a good comb filter in the receiver to separate the encoded chrominance signal from the luminance signal. However, the only complete solution to dot crawl is to not use composite video, and to use S-Video or component video processing instead."

I haven't come across any converter boxes that definitively have both S-video and digital closed caption decoding, but the features of many converter boxes aren't known yet. It would certainly be nice to be able to evaluate the quality of digital closed captions when using S-video, and hopefully there'll be at least one such converter box with both features (particularly for people whose analog TVs don't have captions that are easy for them to read and who have an S-video port on the TV, VCR or DVD recorder---the digital captions can be recorded, if desired).

Dana

It's PBS. The problems is that it only displays one letter on the screen each time.

sneals2000 writes:

> My understanding is that mixed case is less tiring to
> read for long periods, and also faster to read, but it
> is also more difficult to render aesthetically in a
> mono-space fount, rather than a proportional one.

Back in the 1970s, word was that Bell Labs had done a study
and found that mixed case is easier to read. Which may
have had something to do with Unix using mixed case.
I don't know what they used in the study, but back then
most computer equipment had fixed width font, other than
the (rare?) photo-typesetter.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_technical.htm

says:

"Equipment must display ... (3) Close Captioning information as required
by the FCC Rules in 47 C.F.R. S:15.122 and incorporate the CEA 708/608
standard."

So CEA 708/608 is the analog captions?

Assuming for the moment that the answer is "yes", does "Equipment must
display" mean that the box must decode and display the captions, or
merely pass them through, depending on the TV to decode and display them?
Older TVs don't have captions, so you could still be stuck without captions
even with a shiny new converter box?

So CEA 708/608 is the analog captions??

Good info here: http://www.evertz.com/resources/eia_608_708_cc.pdf

It's PBS. The problems is that it only displays one letter on the screen each time.

Is this digital closed captioning or analog closed captions decoded through the converter box, or closed caption data passed through to the analog TV and decoded by your TV?

The answer is useful because it would help us know whether your PBS affiliate is having trouble transmitting digital closed captions or analog closed captions.

Many people have reported problems with PBS stations on digital networks, so I suspect that many PBS affiliates don't realize they need to be transmitting both digital and analog captions for their digital programming.

In a survey I set up for the captioning@yahoogroups.com, PBS is the network with the most problems showing captions for people who have HDTVs.

That suggests that the problem that you have receiving captions for PBS is not a problem of the converter box but shows a problem with the stations' transmission of captions. If it's not transmitting digital captions properly, of course you're not going to get good digital captions through your converter box. However, if you manually switch to analog captions (use the CC button to switch to CC1 for that channel only), you may be able to get by in the interim with analog captions for that program. I don't know, however, if the CC button for the converter box will work only temporarily for the channel, however, or if it changes all captioning for all channels you receive. It would really be helpful if you could do a systematic evaluation of the converter box as outlined in the first posting of this thread.

Dana

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_technical.htm

says:

"Equipment must display ... (3) Close Captioning information as required by the FCC Rules in 47 C.F.R. S:15.122 and incorporate the CEA 708/608 standard."

So CEA 708/608 is the analog captions?

No. CEA-708 captions are digital. CEA-608 captions are analog.



Assuming for the moment that the answer is "yes", does "Equipment must
display" mean that the box must decode and display the captions, or
merely pass them through, depending on the TV to decode and display them?
Older TVs don't have captions, so you could still be stuck without captions
even with a shiny new converter box?

Despite this document from NTIA, the practice seems to be that only some converter boxes will decode the captions via the converter box itself. All of them will pass through CC1 data to the analog TV, but since analog TVs can't decode digital captions, digital captions can't be viewed if there is no decoder within the converter box itself.

I personally don't understand why the practice is NOT to automatically include decoding of digital closed captions within the converter box as this seems inconsistent with other FCC rulings and is very confusing to the public. I'm afraid many people will look at the NTIA document, which clearly indicates that all coupon-eligible converter boxes should display digital captions, and will understand from this that all converter boxes will be able to display digital closed captions, and waste their $40 coupon on an online converter box that doesn't provide the digital closed captioning features they assumed it had. Once the $40 coupon is used, the consumer may not be able to apply the value of it to a converter box that DOES provide them the features desired (since so few retailers are providing more than two different kinds of converter boxes, neither of which may have digital closed captioning).

This is very, very misleading to people who need captions, and I think all the coupon-eligible converter boxes should have been required to provide access to the digital closed caption features in the first place.

In the meantime, however, if more people would do systematic evaluations of the boxes that do offer the digital closed caption features, the more people with hearing loss can find out about how the CECBs with digital closed captions meet their needs.

Dana

Good info here: http://www.evertz.com/resources/eia_608_708_cc.pdf

Thanks. That's interesting and well-illustrated info.

My Sharp HDTV is sometimes not decoding digital captions that the Insignia is decoding for "Lost" and some re-runs of "Law and Order" on the MyNetworkTV network. I'm puzzled as to how this could happen. The opposite situation happens sometimes; the Sharp HDTV shows 608-style captions for SD channels from a local PBS station but the converter box doesn't decode any digital captions from the station.

There's a need for a document to explain the various possibilities for why captions might not show up over digital programming. If anyone could find something like that, or even start one, that would be terrific. (I myself don't have the necessary technical expertise in audio visual science to fully understand the interactions between all the equipment.)

Dana

I've provided some significant updates to the first posting of this thread, including information about which CECBs appear to have the ability to decode digital closed captions.

Most of that information was gleaned by looking at descriptions of the CECBs which stated the box had "EIA-708," "advanced closed captions," or "digital closed captions." When there was only a statement that "closed captioning" was provided, I would examine the user manual, if it was available. (BTW, the user manual for the CASTi CECB does an exceptionally nice job of explaining digital closed captions, while the table of contents for the COSHIP's manual looks like they initially were going to use section 2.6 for digital closed captions but decided not to offer this feature at all. Troubling---and very undesirable---decision on their part.)

It's been confirmed by another user on this thread that the RCA DTA800B box provides digital closed captions (but he had problems receiving DCCs on a channel from PBS).

I emailed the web site for the MaxMedia CECB and received an email back on March 4th from info@memsen.com saying, "Our box does decode digital closed captions."

There's always the chance that a manufacturer will decide to drop an advertised feature; this has apparently already happened with at least one CECB. Before ordering a CECB, therefore, you should doublecheck whether the box does in fact have the features you think it does. If buying it online, we probably ought to print out the feature list before completing the order.

If possible, let's all try to ask the online stores selling the boxes to state clearly on the description of features whether their boxes decode EIA-708 captions (especially if they do). It worries me that they're not doing so already. Customer service people could be so confused that they provide the wrong information via email just because they really don't understand the difference between EIA-608 and EIA-708 captions. I'd feel more assured if I could examine the user manual and see a direct reference to digital closed captions and other advertised features there. If possible, then, let's try to find out how to get the online user manuals for all of these boxes.

For now, six user manuals can be found through:

http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter_Box.html

The CECBs described by those manuals are:

CASTi CAX-01
COSHIP N9900T
Insignia NS-DXA1
MicroGEM MG2000
Microprose MPI-500
Zenith DTT900

Dana - not strictly relevant to the thread - but thought the way live subtitles are now produced in the UK might be of interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp070.shtml

Because the BBC have live subtitlers in every local TV station in the UK to live-subtitle the local news, they are also able to deploy these staff, and also those working from home (who can watch an off-air feed of the show they are subtitling!) to ensure all output is subtitled efficiently. It also gives an insight into how live subs are done.

Apologies for off-topic-ness.

I have been evaluating the converter box by trying the
box with four different analog TV sets that I have at
home.

The TV power on function button on the converter remote only
works with the Sony but not on the other two that have
the RF function. Why? I have reset the box each time to
factory settings to no avail for the other TV sets. Is it true,
that the TV power on function is very limited on the remote?

I have one TV set (Sylvania) with a broken remote. I
am in the process on trying different universal
remotes. I have one with the learning feature but I
wanted to reserve that with the Sony which is my main
TV unit that is hooked up to Cable. (BTW, the Cable
hookup is only connected to the Sony and does not have
a Cable box)

The biggest issue that I have is the DTX9900 is not
sizing the digital CCD (708) font properly. By that I
mean, the CCD font is so small even when compared with
the analog CC font is large and easy to read. I can't
even select the largest font setting. I can select the
color and font styles. BTW, only two channels are
passing the 708 CC which is the PBS channels in my
area.

I don't know if the box is not working in that regard
with the CCD menu functions (in terms of font sizing)
or if it is channel provider. I'll have to find a
neighbor who has a HDTV set who can tune in the OTA
signal. Meanwhile, I'm looking for another converter
box. Any suggestions as what to get since I do not
want to duplicate the same findings?

The biggest issue that I have is the DTX9900 is not
sizing the digital CCD (708) font properly. By that I
mean, the CCD font is so small even when compared with
the analog CC font is large and easy to read. I can't
even select the largest font setting. I can select the
color and font styles. BTW, only two channels are
passing the 708 CC which is the PBS channels in my
area.

I don't know if the box is not working in that regard
with the CCD menu functions (in terms of font sizing)
or if it is channel provider. I'll have to find a
neighbor who has a HDTV set who can tune in the OTA
signal.

It *is* important to find out if you're getting digital captions for the digital channels in the area. Many people have reported problems with captions from PBS stations, so you may not even be getting fully digital captions from that station. For example, I get captions from the SD channels of my local PBS stations that appear in the style of analog captions (black and white with solid black background), and my digital caption settings for those captions aren't applied. That's caused by the PBS station. If you're getting fixed captions from PBS, for example, then you can't change the appearance of those captions, let alone the size of the captions. If that's what's happening, that's not the fault of the converter box.



Meanwhile, I'm looking for another converter
box. Any suggestions as what to get since I do not
want to duplicate the same findings?

If you're not getting any real digital captions in your area, you may need to hold off on getting a converter box and to work with your local TV stations to get them to broadcast both 708 and 608 captions over their digital channels sooner rather than later. Otherwise, you could be cut off from your local TV broadcasts if they never get around to fixing these problems. Your converter box won't be able to deliver you access to digital programming if no TV station is providing the necessary captions.



The TV power on function button on the converter remote only works with the Sony but not on the other two that have the RF function. Why? I have reset the box each time to factory settings to no avail for the other TV sets. Is it true, that the TV power on function is very limited on the remote?


Resetting the CECB isn't going to affect how the remote control is set. The remote control will only be able to store the code for one TV at a time. Doublecheck the user manual about how to change the code in the remote control for the TV. If you wanted to keep this box, you may need to contact the manufacturer (or check out their web site) if you can't change the code in the remote control for the TV.

Let me ask everyone to bring up non-captioning troubleshooting problems with the general one for all CECBs at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052

or with any threads that have been created for a specific CECB.

The one for this DigitalStream CECB is at:

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=996043

Let's use this thread only for evaluations of captioning issues with CECBs or related issues so that it doesn't get off-track.

I do hope you'll let us know whether the digital closed captioning has a caption preview that immediately shows the changes you make in the captions, what you think of the legibility of the different caption fonts, and what pushing the CC button actually does (i.e., what kind of menu it brings up).

If you can post on that here, then I can link to it from the other thread I've set up on "Evaluating digital to analog converter boxes for users of captioning" at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=997022

Your input would certainly be valued there as well, of course.

Figured I'd just post here. I played with the CC function some more, and I seem to have the same problems outlined above. Now, mind you, I have no knowledge of the various CC formats (I have no need for CC, but just wanted to test it on the box). There is a whole array of cryptic choices: CS1, CS2, CS3, CS4, CS5, CS6, CC1, CC2, TEXT1, TEXT2. Supposedly you can also change the size, font, color, etc. of the captions. Well, I don't know if it's my ignorance, a flaw of the box, or just what's being put out by the local stations, but the only two settings that seem to work are CS1 and CC1, and they both produce that small, hard to read font mentioned above, no matter what I setup in the menu. The captions also scroll horizontally across the screen, which is very annoying as well. (The built-in captions on the analog set itself are larger, clearer, and appear as complete sentences at a time, not scrolled like some bank's promotional marquee.)

So, FWIW, that is what I find. It's no skin off my own nose, since I don't use the captions, but I can well understand that a hearing-impaired person would certainly not want to use this unit. (Again, though, unless I'm just ignorant and am not hitting the right buttons...) :confused:

Figured I'd just post here. I played with the CC function some more, and I seem to have the same problems outlined above. Now, mind you, I have no knowledge of the various CC formats (I have no need for CC, but just wanted to test it on the box). There is a whole array of cryptic choices: CS1, CS2, CS3, CS4, CS5, CS6, CC1, CC2, TEXT1, TEXT2. Supposedly you can also change the size, font, color, etc. of the captions. Well, I don't know if it's my ignorance, a flaw of the box, or just what's being put out by the local stations, but the only two settings that seem to work are CS1 and CC1, and they both produce that small, hard to read font mentioned above, no matter what I setup in the menu. The captions also scroll horizontally across the screen, which is very annoying as well. (The built-in captions on the analog set itself are larger, clearer, and appear as complete sentences at a time, not scrolled like some bank's promotional marquee.)


Thanks very much for your input, Stanislav.

I haven't heard of "CS1" before, but "Service 1" on the Insignia box refers to the English language setting for digital captions, so my guess is that "CS1" refers to digital captions using Service 1. Users might only be able to change the size of captions if the user chooses the "CS1" setting as that is a selection of digital captions, while the CC# choices are analog only.

If you're only using the CC button, this may not work to set up permanent captioning settings. CC buttons aren't standardized and may be used by one manufacturer for a temporary change in the captions, or by another manufacturer for a very quick and easy menu. The only way to set up a permanent change may be by going into the Menu setting.

Still, it sounds like there are problems with how the DigitalStream DTX9900 has been designed with respect to digital closed captions. There's a chance that there's something abnormal about how local TV stations are transmitting their digital captions, but there should be some noticeable differences among the different stations.

I may see if I can get a local Radio Shack to demonstrate this CECB in the store. I know what the Insignia can do for the different local channels here (and I've never seen problems like what you've described), so I can compare what I see from the DigitalStream with what I've seen the Insignia do.

If those problems are duplicated here, though, that sounds really horrible for people who were counting on getting usable digital closed captions---and who may blow their $40 coupon on this CECB. :mad:

Doesn't the user manual provide any useful assistance about how to select the digital captions? (I'm hoping lulu8839 can answer this question.)

Many American viewers who are not necessarily "hearing impaired" use closed captioning at certain times. Closed captioning is particularly effective in public lounge areas of restaurants, bars and other locations with a lot of ambient noise. Even in the home, some viewers prefer viewing as well as seeing the spoken dialogue.

While the broadcasters may bear much of the blame for these problems, I recall NTIA's specifications referred to the importance of the "robustness" of the STB design. While that may have referred to hack-resistance, it also presumably means the CECBs should be freeze-resistant and crash resistant.

I'm glad you brought this up. I love to use my closed captioning when watching movies, or when watching music programs (you get lyrics!), or sometimes just watching a show where someone's speaking with an accent I can't understand. Closed captioning's technology may have started out being just for the deaf, but that doesn't mean hearing people can't use it, as well!

I'm glad you brought this up. I love to use my closed captioning when watching movies, or when watching music programs (you get lyrics!), or sometimes just watching a show where someone's speaking with an accent I can't understand. Closed captioning's technology may have started out being just for the deaf, but that doesn't mean hearing people can't use it, as well!

Certainly many people use captioning who don't have a hearing loss. That's why the title of this thread is "Evaluating Digital to Analog Converter Boxes for Users of Captioning" and doesn't assume that only deaf and hard of hearing people use captioning. However, captioning is especially important for deaf and hard of hearing people who can't reliably understand spoken communication without it. (Captioning is also important for many non-native speakers of English and people with auditory processing disorders and perhaps people with other kinds of disabilities as well.)

With all these users of captioning, though, we really need systematic evaluations of the captioning features from the different CECBs. I've outlined an evaluation process and 12 questions to be answered in the first posting of this thread. Other CECBs can be purchased in stores right now that offer digital captions: the RCA and Magnavox at Walmart, the DigitalStream at RadioShack and the Zenith at Radio Shack and Circuit City. (The Insignia is at Best Buy but I've already been evaluating that in the second posting of this thread.) Nowhere else have there been systematic evaluations of captioning features, so please help out here by systematically evaluating a CECB yourself (as outlined in the first posting) and sharing your input on this thread. If we don't do it here, it may never happen, and due to the time limits of the 90-day period for coupons, those people who have coupons already or coming soon need those evaluations sooner rather than later.

Dana

It should be noted that the "analog" EIA-608 captions are not really "analog" in the ATSC signal. In fact, they are transmitted digitally just like the EIA-708 captions, and in the very same place in the MPEG-2 bitstream (video elementary stream picture user data).

In essence, all the captions in an ATSC signal are EIA-708, but the FCC has mandated that EIA-608 captions are replicated and always sent in addition to any EIA-708 captions. In the picture user data syntax, there is an identifier to indicate whether a byte is for EIA-608 captions or EIA-708 captions.

The ATSC receiver is actually reconstructing the line 21 analog captions on it's composite or s-video output based on digital information in the ATSC bitstream.

Ron

The ATSC receiver is actually reconstructing the line 21 analog captions on it's composite or s-video output based on digital information in the ATSC bitstream.

Ron

Yep - that is the same technique used by DVB systems to provide the same teletext/subtitle services we have on PAL/SECAM analogue (World Systems Teletext) - with either the receiver decoding the WST packets and burning them into the video, or the receiver converting the WST packet stream into VBI data and inserting it in blanking on an SD signal, so that a TV with teletext decoding can display the text service itself.

Some receivers do a combination of the two - decoding subtitles and burning them into the video as text, but also re-inserting the teletext data into blanking for display decoding. (Sky receivers do this for example)

(It all gets more complex with HD interconnects - where receiver display is a must as HDMI/Component HD interconnects don't carry VBI WST in a form that can be decoded in the TV.)

Yeah, with more experimentation, it looks like (a)you have to choose "user" in the menu for it to utilize your settings and not the defaults, (b)"CS1" is indeed the only setting that works with the changes (I don't know what CS2, etc. are for -- none of them work at all -- maybe for future standards?), (c)the largest font is not very large at all, and (d)no matter what combination of font, color, background you choose, the damn letters sparkle and shimmy on the screen to the point of distraction. Sure, this is being viewed on a very inexpensive 13" analog, but similar lettering in the TV picture itself doesn't do this, just the captions, so I don't think it's the set that's the problem.

Anyway, that's probably as far as I'll go with playing around with this CC stuff. Y'all can work it out the rest of the way on your own. ;)

Yeah, with more experimentation, it looks like (a)you have to choose "user" in the menu for it to utilize your settings and not the defaults, (b)"CS1" is indeed the only setting that works with the changes (I don't know what CS2, etc. are for -- none of them work at all -- maybe for future standards?),


Suspect CS2 etc. are for alternate caption streams. In some territories it isn't unusual to have more than one subtitle stream on programmes (say English and Spanish in the US, English and French in Canada, English and Welsh in Wales etc.) I guess that CS1 and CS2 would let you chose between languages?


(c)the largest font is not very large at all, and (d)no matter what combination of font, color, background you choose, the damn letters sparkle and shimmy on the screen to the point of distraction. Sure, this is being viewed on a very inexpensive 13" analog, but similar lettering in the TV picture itself doesn't do this, just the captions, so I don't think it's the set that's the problem.


Unless you are using S-video you are using a composite (either baseband via RCA phonos or via RF) connection. Composite signals suffer from cross colour and cross luma - where high frequency detail (like the sharp edges of a cheap non-/poorly-antia aliased character inserter) causes chroma interference. This isn't an issue in most internal closed caption decoders because the captions can be inserted AFTER Composite decoding, into the RGB or component internal signals before going to the tube drives - but is if you are decoding composite captions. It shouldn't be an issue with S-video.

Very fine text will also potentially "twitter" as a result of interlacing - particularly on fine vertical detail. This would be at frame, not field, rate as very fine static vertical detail is only present in alternate fields

It isn't a fault of the set top box per se (though decent anti-aliased characters will have fewer HF edges and should thus "shimmer" less) but more a function of the interconnect used - though better decoders in more expensive sets may cope better. You would probably see it on subtitles inserted by a DVD player (and not by the TV) when connected composite?

Suspect CS2 etc. are for alternate caption streams. In some territories it isn't unusual to have more than one subtitle stream on programmes (say English and Spanish in the US, English and French in Canada, English and Welsh in Wales etc.) I guess that CS1 and CS2 would let you chose between languages?

Could be. I haven't found any broadcasts with dual-language audio yet (although for some reason, CBS shows always show an SAC that merely turns out to be the same English audio, in poorer quality), which is where I would expect the possibility of dual-language captions. Still doesn't explain what CS3 through CS6 are for, unless there are plans afoot to do shows with subtitles in 6 different languages. :confused:

Very fine text will also potentially "twitter" as a result of interlacing - particularly on fine vertical detail. This would be at frame, not field, rate as very fine static vertical detail is only present in alternate fields

It isn't a fault of the set top box per se (though decent anti-aliased characters will have fewer HF edges and should thus "shimmer" less) but more a function of the interconnect used - though better decoders in more expensive sets may cope better. You would probably see it on subtitles inserted by a DVD player (and not by the TV) when connected composite?

Just for the halibut, I pulled out a DVD that had subtitles, and no, they did not twitter like the captions generated by the DTX990. They are not perfectly sharp (but then, nothing really is on a cheap set like this), but they did not do the "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" number. Maybe the difference between the captions being an integral part of the original source, as opposed to being generated by the box and overlaid on an existing signal?

Could be. I haven't found any broadcasts with dual-language audio yet (although for some reason, CBS shows always show an SAC that merely turns out to be the same English audio, in poorer quality), which is where I would expect the possibility of dual-language captions. Still doesn't explain what CS3 through CS6 are for, unless there are plans afoot to do shows with subtitles in 6 different languages. :confused:


I think the CS2, CS3, etc is the equivalent of Service 2, Service 3, etc. and was simply a way of future-proofing the device in case a TV station wanted to broadcast captions in languages other than English. CS2 might also be used to broadcast captions at a slower reading rate (like for young children who can't read quickly), or conversely, at a faster rate for deaf or hard of hearing parents who are watching "Sesame Street' with their hearing children. (The normal captioning for Sesame Street is at a very low reading rate and doesn't actually follow the dialog.)



Just for the halibut, I pulled out a DVD that had subtitles, and no, they did not twitter like the captions generated by the DTX990. They are not perfectly sharp (but then, nothing really is on a cheap set like this), but they did not do the "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" number. Maybe the difference between the captions being an integral part of the original source, as opposed to being generated by the box and overlaid on an existing signal?

Now, that is interesting!

I think you're talking about the same kind of problem I had noticed earlier in this thread, though it sounds worse with the DigitalStream. Perhaps the subtitles do become part of the overall video image, and the way that the captions are inserted by the DigitalStream sounds inferior.

I went to Radio Shack today to try to get a demo of the Digital Stream, but the personnel said they wouldn't do it (they don't want to open boxes to demonstrate anything). I confirmed the ONLY way I could see for myself about digital caption problems would be to buy this, even though I'd heard two other people complain about the digital captions, and that I would need to return it if I didn't like it. Then the personnel prepared to sell me a converter box which turned out to be the Zenith (without telling me they hadn't found the DigitalStream), and then said they didn't have the DigitalStream in stock. (Along the way, it was very clear none of the three personnel had any idea these converter boxes decoded digital captions.)

I decided to go ahead and buy the Zenith to check that out as there might be slight differences between that one and the Insignia, even though thy both have the same chip. More on that later.

Stanislav, thanks very much for providing us more feedback on the DigitalStream. Sounds like the digital captions are too small to compete with a TV's built-in analog captions, and that the manufacturer just didn't implement those features well. On the Insignia, the largest font, Font 7, covers the entire width of the screen when all 32 characters are used, so it's possible to make digital captions large. My Sharp HDTV doesn't make its digital captions terribly large, but at least they're easy to read.

Could be. I haven't found any broadcasts with dual-language audio yet (although for some reason, CBS shows always show an SAC that merely turns out to be the same English audio, in poorer quality), which is where I would expect the possibility of dual-language captions. Still doesn't explain what CS3 through CS6 are for, unless there are plans afoot to do shows with subtitles in 6 different languages. :confused:


BBC Prime, a pan-European Pay-TV operation operated by the BBC in Europe is broadcast in English language audio but with subtitles in the following languages : Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Czech, Polish, Romanian, Hungarian, Italian, Hebrew and Serbo Croat, as the channel is broadcast in territories using these formats. Obviously there are multiple versions of the channel for different pay-TV platforms - but some platforms cover multiple language territories, and other pan-European channels do similarly - certainly Swedish, Danish and Norwegian subtitles are common on pan-Nordic channels or they were - hence DVB and the analogue Teletext system coped with a very large number of simultaneous subtitle feeds (on Teletext they appeared on different page numbers that you entered manually, on DVB receivers you usually select your native language and subtitles are flagged with their language - a bit like DVD players)

I suspect the ATSC had a similar mind set - as the ATSC regions include French, Spanish and English speaking communities in large numbers, and smaller numbers of more minority language communities ? If a show has SAP audio in Spanish or French, then it could be expected to have subtitles as well?

I suspect that one reason the DVB subtitles are bitmap based (like DVDs) rather than character based (as Teletext and ATSC and NTSC closed captions are) is that the subs are not tied to founts in the receiver - so complex character sets are handled by the broadcaster originated the captions, meaning each receiver doesn't have to have full Japanese, Chinese, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Russian etc. typefaces built in to be able to display subtitles in these formats.


Just for the halibut, I pulled out a DVD that had subtitles, and no, they did not twitter like the captions generated by the DTX990. They are not perfectly sharp (but then, nothing really is on a cheap set like this), but they did not do the "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" number.


Suspect the DVD player does a better insertion job - and the DVD typefaces (like DVB subtitles, chosen by the DVD mastering people not the player itself, as DVD subs are bitmapped) - even via a composite connection (component or S-video will be better still). DVD subtitles are quite "chunky" - so may not have as much "fine" detail in them?


Maybe the difference between the captions being an integral part of the original source, as opposed to being generated by the box and overlaid on an existing signal?

DVD subtitles are generated in the DVD player (I wasn't talking about DVD replays with closed captions that are generated in the TV, nor a DVD release with "burned in" subtitles) and inserted in a very similar way to closed captions being decoded in an external set top box. Suspect the twinkling and twittering are a result of the poorer quality founts?

----snip----

Here's my own current and not necessarily complete list of CECBs
with digital closed captioning (and some other features):

Artec T3APro (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=T3APro-EZ)
CASTi CAX-01 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/CASTi_CAX-01.html) (CC button on remote)
Daewoo DAC-100 (https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=897929&native_or_pdf=pdf) (according to user guide on FCC site)
DigitalSTREAM D2A1D10
DigitalSTREAM D2A1D20
DigitalSTREAM DTX9900 (Can pass through analog channels)
Insignia NS-DXA1 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Insignia_NS-DXA1.html)
Magnavox TB100MW9 (http://www.funai-corp.com/6pdf/om/TB100MW9.pdf)(Can pass through analog channels)
MaxMedia MMDTVB03 (S-video, Smart Antenna interface, may pass through analog channels)
MicroGEM MG2000 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Microprose_MPI-500.html)
MicroProse MPI-500 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Microprose_MPI-500.html) (Buttons on box for menu, channels, etc. Though claimed as a feature,
Smart Antenna interface is not shown on box or documented in manual---status unclear.)
Philco TB100HH9 (Can pass through analog channels)
Philco TB150HH9 (Can pass through analog channels, Smart Antenna interface)
RCA DTA800
RCA DTA800B (Smart Antenna interface)
TATUNG TDB3000 (Smart Antenna interface)
Tivax STB-T9 (Smart Antenna interface)
Zenith DTT900 (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Zenith_DTT900_DTV.html)
Zentech DF2000 (7 day EPG, CC button)


The links for the different CECBs are to documents that show that the CECB has
digital (EIA-708) closed captioning decoding.

----snip----

Dana Mulvany
Rockville, MD
I need to update my spread sheet with links to manufacturer or retailer websites
(preferably the horse's mouth), indicating the source of various information.
I've been able to confirm nearly all of the above and will incorporate it into next update, however
first I have a few questions:

1. There are almost no RCA DTA-800/800A reports and it uses a SoC chip from a different
manufacturer. So I'll use a question mark "?" until someone provides specific confirmation.
[Zoran's Jan2007 Press Release said RCA DTA-800A would use SupraHD 741...with Smart Antenna I/F.]
[But LATER Oct2007 VU-graph said RCA DTA-800 used SupraHD 640 with Cascade 220...go figure.]
[Quite frankly, I'm not so sure very many of these "prototypes" ever made it to retail...]

PS: Much more numerous DTA-800B model (with Broadcom SoC) has DCC.

2. Without a copy of the Philco TB150HH9 User Manual, I've been unable to confirm DCC feature.
Does anyone have a source of info for this model, or should we presume DCC is very likely since
it was in TB100HH9 model? [Works for me.....]

3. I have been unable to confirm DCC for Tatung TDB-3000 (model is missing from their website).
Anyone know source of this info, other than (the unknown sourced) info on ezddigitaltv.com?
[I'll use "DCC?" until someone provides specific confirmation.]

4. I've been unable to confirm DCC for Zentech DF2000 (Can't find on any website).
Anyone know source of this information, other than (unknown sourced) info on ezddigitaltv.com?
["Zentech" websitesss are deadendsss. Found Skardin Industrial Corp address/phone, no website.]
[I'll use "DCC?" until someone provides specific confirmation.]

============================
I'm also looking for a link to DigitalStream DTX9900, Zenith DTT900, et. al. User Manuals.
And are there any differences wrt Insignia NS-DXA1?

FYI: FCC EAS (Emissions Test) website only had the User Manual for Insignia LSX-300-4DM
(with Smart Antenna I/F). EAS website only lists (same) few boxes so far. I'll also update Daewoo
features since website is back up after weekend maintenance.

PS: Microprose originally had Smart Antenna feature listed on their website....but it has been
removed and the MPI-500 User Manual clearly does not describe this feature, nor does it show
a Smart Antenna I/F connector.

I emailed the contact at www.convertmytv.com (info@memsen.com) for the MaxMedia CECB about nothing being said publicly about their device having analog pass-through and EIA-708 captions. Here's the response I got:

______________
Dana,

Thank you for your interest in our MMDTVB03.

As you know, our box does feature analog passthrough capability for EIA-708 captions

We are not posting a full feature yet due to some regulatory issues with some of our competitors
and their lack of this above stated capability ... its a political issue.

We will have an online USER MANUAL available shortly. Please request one at
support@maxmedia-usa.com

Thank you,
Customer Service
www.convertmy.tv
_____________________


Oh boy. The person confused pass-through of analog captions with "analog pass-through of analog channels." It's also not possible to pass-through digital caption data to an analog TV, and the person who answered didn't appear to understand the difference between EIA-708 and EIA-608 captions.

There shouldn't be any legal problem for a converter box to pass through analog channels, to decode digital captions, to have S-video output or to provide a Smart Antenna interface, so what they said about not wanting to post their full features doesn't make sense to me.

Buyer beware. I'm going to wait for the user manual to be posted online OFFICIALLY as proof of what the MaxMedia CECB's features are, and I suggest everyone demand and look at the user manual first before buying. I'm not certain this CECB actually passes through analog channels or provides digital closed captions, and I haven't seen any public proof that this CECB does so. There *may* be some language translation problems getting in the way.

Dana

It should be noted that the "analog" EIA-608 captions are not really "analog" in the ATSC signal. In fact, they are transmitted digitally just like the EIA-708 captions, and in the very same place in the MPEG-2 bitstream (video elementary stream picture user data).

In essence, all the captions in an ATSC signal are EIA-708, but the FCC has mandated that EIA-608 captions are replicated and always sent in addition to any EIA-708 captions. In the picture user data syntax, there is an identifier to indicate whether a byte is for EIA-608 captions or EIA-708 captions.


I've heard references to EIA-708B captions; perhaps those are the specific captions that are advanced, while the EIA-608 captions are supposed to be included along with the EIA-708B captions to form the entire EIA-708 standard? I'm having trouble finding clear information about this.


The ATSC receiver is actually reconstructing the line 21 analog captions on it's composite or s-video output based on digital information in the ATSC bitstream.

Ron

The EIA-608 captions would also reconstructed via the RF output. (Most of the CECBs don't have S-video output; they're all required to have the composite video and RF output.)

1. There are almost no RCA DTA-800/800A reports and it uses a SoC chip from a different
manufacturer. So I'll use a question mark "?" until someone provides specific confirmation.



That sounds fine.


2. Without a copy of the Philco TB150HH9 User Manual, I've been unable to confirm DCC feature.
Does anyone have a source of info for this model, or should we presume DCC is very likely since
it was in TB100HH9 model? [Works for me.....]


Works for me, too, especially since it's described as having DCC (digital closed captions) at ezdigitaltv.com.

I've updated the list of CECBs with DCCs at posting #1 with more links to supporting documentation, referring to user manuals whenever possible (or to a page containing a link to a user manual), and there's now a link to the user manual for the TB100HH9.

Unfortunately, there is still so much confusion about digital closed captions that some references to digital closed captions may have been erased in the list of features because the writer thought this was redundant information. So some of the pages that used to say the CECB had digital closed captions seem to have been changed and may no longer say they do---and it may be a result of the writer's confusion rather than a dropping of the feature. The Insignia page now doesn't say it has DCC, for example, and I think it used to. (The current link points to that page, which contains a link to the user manual.)



3. I have been unable to confirm DCC for Tatung TDB-3000 (model is missing from their website).
Anyone know source of this info, other than (the unknown sourced) info on ezddigitaltv.com?
[I'll use "DCC?" until someone provides specific confirmation.]


The linked list of features states:

"Closed Captioning
EIA-708 & EIA-608"

It's up to you, but I thought that was specific enough.

I think it would be highly desirable to see the user manual for all these CECBs, but it's still useful to indicate which ones have been described as having the DCCs---and to advise people to make sure of this before buying the CECB.


4. I've been unable to confirm DCC for Zentech DF2000 (Can't find on any website).
Anyone know source of this information, other than (unknown sourced) info on ezddigitaltv.com?
[I'll use "DCC?" until someone provides specific confirmation.]


The linked list of features from ezdigitaltv.com stated:

"Closed Caption: Digital closed captions offering multiple font sizes, colors and backgrounds."

Again, when there's that much specificity, I'm inclined to think the CECB probably does have that feature.


============================
I'm also looking for a link to DigitalStream DTX9900, Zenith DTT900, et. al. User Manuals.
And are there any differences wrt Insignia NS-DXA1?


I'll replace the current links with links to the user manuals if that information becomes known to me.

I'm not sure what you mean about differences with respect to the Insignia. I'm currently comparing this to the Zenith DTT900, though, but need to put the two boxes in the same room for a definite comparison between the 2.


PS: Microprose originally had Smart Antenna feature listed on their website....but it has been
removed and the MPI-500 User Manual clearly does not describe this feature, nor does it show
a Smart Antenna I/F connector.

Thanks. I erased the reference to the possibility of a Smart Antenna interface.


I have separated the MaxMedia box out of the list because I'm not comfortable relying on email from a confused-sounding customer service representative as proof that the box has DCCs.

With all these users of captioning, though, we really need systematic evaluations of the captioning features from the different CECBs. I've outlined an evaluation process and 12 questions to be answered in the first posting of this thread. Other CECBs can be purchased in stores right now that offer digital captions: the RCA and Magnavox at Walmart, the DigitalStream at RadioShack and the Zenith at Radio Shack and Circuit City. Nowhere else have there been systematic evaluations of captioning features, so please help out here by systematically evaluating a CECB yourself (as outlined in the first posting) and sharing your input on this thread. If we don't do it here, it may never happen, and due to the time limits of the 90-day period for coupons, those people who have coupons already or coming soon need those evaluations sooner rather than later.

DanaWell, before I do that, I first have to evaluate whether the Magnavox box I bought from Wal-Mart will even work with my TV and DVD recorder. After that, I'll be happy to let you know my impressions of the Closed Captioning function. If the tuner's CC doesn't work well, I guess I can override it with that of my television. If it does, I'll keep it, if not, I'll look for a DVD recorder with a tuner! Wal-Mart has a liberal return policy, and I bought it even though I qualify for a coupon (which I should have been able to download rather than wait for it in the mail, but that's OT). We'll see what happens.

At any rate, I'm sorry if you took my response as threadjacking, it wasn't the intention. I'll be lurking until I find out what you need to know, unless someone posts data for it first, as it will be interesting to see what you actually do with all this data...

Thanks

Well, before I do that, I first have to evaluate whether the Magnavox box I bought from Wal-Mart will even work with my TV and DVD recorder. After that, I'll be happy to let you know my impressions of the Closed Captioning function.

I'm very glad to hear you'll be evaluating a CECB. FYI, no one else has yet indicated they'd be evaluating the digital closed captioning of the Magnavox.

Unfortunately, there's been a lot of problems reported with the Magnavox CECBs not even turning on, with one person on the AVS forum saying the first two boxes he picked up were dead right out of the box. So you definitely *do* need to find out if it will even work at all, let alone with your TV! Of all the CECBs bought from stores so far, the Magnavox CECBs appear to have the highest rate by far of being "dead on arrival."


If the tuner's CC doesn't work well, I guess I can override it with that of my television. If it does, I'll keep it, if not, I'll look for a DVD recorder with a tuner! Wal-Mart has a liberal return policy, and I bought it even though I qualify for a coupon (which I should have been able to download rather than wait for it in the mail, but that's OT). We'll see what happens.

You may be very glad you didn't buy it with a coupon since you'll be able to get your money back in full if you're not happy with it.


At any rate, I'm sorry if you took my response as threadjacking, it wasn't the intention.



No need to apologize at all. We've gotten absolutely terrific information here related to captioning that might not be considered strictly related to evaluating converter boxes, but I think we've really benefited from them. I was worried, however, that despite dozens of messages, no one else had yet answered for any CECB the ten questions (now 12) which I had listed in the first posting of this thread. (We don't know if any other CECB's remote control is accessible to blind folks, for example.)

There are already problems surfacing (like with the DigitalStream and the RCA 800B, which might stop working properly with some TV stations if the background is set to transparent.) There's a definite need to find out more.


I'll be lurking until I find out what you need to know, unless someone posts data for it first, as it will be interesting to see what you actually do with all this data...


What I (and millions of other people) need to know is the information requested in the first posting for all the CECBs with digital closed captioning via the systematic evaluation process outlined in that posting. The second posting shows how that was done with the Insignia. The photos are optional but certainly desirable since they can let people make their own judgments.

The questions in the first posting can be copied and pasted into a new document, with answers inserted in between the questions. (Might be safer to create the evaluation in something like Word or WordPad first so you can save it and work on it over time, rather than try to type it up online in one sitting. It could then be pasted into a new posting on this thread when finished.)

Dana

I've heard references to EIA-708B captions; perhaps those are the specific captions that are advanced, while the EIA-608 captions are supposed to be included along with the EIA-708B captions to form the entire EIA-708 standard? I'm having trouble finding clear information about this.
The ATSC specification is available here:

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_53-Part-4-2007-w-Amend-1.pdf

See section 6.2.3

The EIA-708B specification isn't public. However, I can show you how it works with a bitstream example.

http://www.w6rz.net/cc.png

I've highlighted the caption data in red. Here's the breakdown.

00 00 01 B2 = user_data_start_code

47 41 39 34 = ATSC_identifier ("GA94" in ascii for Grand Alliance 1994)

03 = user_data_type_code (0x03 = cc_data)

54 = 01010100 = process_cc_data_flag = 1, additional_data_flag = 0, cc_count = 0x14 or 20 decimal

FF = reserved

FC = NTSC line 21 field 1 (EIA-608)

E5 6D = two characters of cc_data (the letters "em" in the CC1 service)

FD = NTSC line 21 field 2 (EIA-608)

52 BA = two characters of cc_data (some other service, possibly XDS)

FF = DTVCC packet header

46 29 = two bytes of DTVCC (EIA-708)

FE = DTVCC packet data

6C 65 = two bytes of DTVCC (EIA-708)

FE = DTVCC packet data

61 73 = two bytes of DTVCC (EIA-708)

FE = DTVCC packet data

65 20 = two bytes of DTVCC (EIA-708)

FE = DTVCC packet data

74 68 = two bytes of DTVCC (EIA-708)

FE = DTVCC packet data

03 00 = two bytes of DTVCC (EIA-708)

FA = cc_valid = FALSE

00 00 = filler

The FA 00 00 sequence is repeated 11 more times to fill out the cc_count of 20.

FF = marker_bits (end of user_data)

00 00 = stuffing to align the bitstream

Ron

This is very, very misleading to people who need captions, and I think all the coupon-eligible converter boxes should have been required to provide access to the digital closed caption features in the first place.

The Coupon-eligible boxes are required to provide the SAME functionality as current analog television provides. That means outputing NTSC-compatible video. S-video, digital captions, electronic guides, et cetera are all considered "optional" extras and are not mandatory.

Repeat: They are only required to provide the SAME functionality as televisions have now. Extras are not required.



Also, I want to correct a few minor errors. The box does not "passthrough" analog captions, because there is no analog. The signal is completely digital. Inside that digital signal is data that holds the EIA-608 captioning. The EIA-608 digital data is stripped-out and fed to line 21 on the NTSC analog video.

Thus the EIA-608 captions are digitally generated by a computer, and converted to an analog signal.

Not passed-through.

Also, I want to correct a few minor errors. The box does not "passthrough" analog captions, because there is no analog. The signal is completely digital. Inside that digital signal is data that holds the EIA-608 captioning. The EIA-608 digital data is stripped-out and fed to line 21 on the NTSC analog video.

Thus the EIA-608 captions are digitally generated by a computer, and converted to an analog signal.

Not passed-through.

I think the reason that the term "passed through" has been used by people and organizations other than myself is to emphasize that the EIA-608 captions must be present in the televised signal already and that the CECB is therefore required to "pass through" the EIA-608 caption data if this data exists. The CECB cannot do this for EIA-608 captions that are not already present in the televised signal. Some people have erroneously thought that the CECBs could convert EIA-708 captions to EIA-608 captions, which isn't the case.

The term "relaying" could be used with respect to the EIA-608 captioning data as I think that communicates that the EIA-608 captioning data has to exist in the first place. Deaf and severely hard of hearing people use relay services to understand spoken communication; the meaning is intended to come through intact and word-for-word even if the method of delivery is different. Thus although EIA-608 data is sent out digitally by the TV stations, the CECB relays this data to the analog TV by converting the data into a form that the analog TV can understand. The information remains exactly the same (or should).

I think the general public, however, will understand the term "pass-through" of the EIA-608 captioning data more easily than relaying; most people will absolutely not want to get into the mechanics about how this is done, and in many situations, it is kinder and more effective to speak to them in language they can understand than to insist on using technically precise language that's much too difficult, and irrelevant, for them to understand.

EIA-608 captions are often described as analog captions (even if they're sent digitally) because these are the only kinds of captions that can be decoded by analog TVs, and that language is easier for most consumers to understand. The use of the term "analog captions" should not be taken to mean that the person using this term believes they're sent via analog signals.

rrrroger, you brought in a quote of a message from another thread, which was out of context for this thread, particularly since you could have continued the discussion there and I had already addressed what you said on the other thread by stating that there are required features available from CECBs that are not available on analog TVS now. Please don't bring quotes from other threads here that are not directly related to evaluations of CECBs and which will bewilder everyone else here; if you want to continue the discussion, do so on the original thread or PM me.

The ATSC specification is available here:

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_53-Part-4-2007-w-Amend-1.pdf

See section 6.2.3

The EIA-708B specification isn't public. However, I can show you how it works with a bitstream example.



Interesting.

How can we refer just to the digital captions in a way which doesn't include the EIA-608 captions that are also expected to be part of the bitstream?

There's a lot of confusion about digital closed captions, with some people believing that ATSC tuners can downconvert EIA-708 captions that don't have EIA-608 data within them to EIA-608 captions, or that it would be easy for them to do so----and that there's no need to continue broadcasting EIA-608 data.

As I understand it, though, the CECB boxes wouldn't be able to provide EIA-608 data to analog TVs if there were no EIA-608 captions in the original broadcast. They might have the optional feature to decode EIA-708 captions, but that is different from providing the EIA-608 data to the analog TVs to decode.

BTW, does the ability to decode EIA-708 captions automatically mean the ability to decode EIA-608 captions?

Anyway, I'm wondering how clear the FCC has been about the need to provide both types of captions after the cessation of analog broadcasts. If TV station engineers haven't been made aware that they still need to be transmitting both kinds of captions, and if equipment manufacturers and other people in the industry haven't understood this either, then many people with hearing loss with CECBs that don't decode captions could be without access to captions for a significant period of time.

In the DC area, there are four stations (WJLA, WTTG, my20, WETA) that don't routinely send both types of captions over digital channels, and I'm wondering if that's because of a failure by the FCC to communicate the necessity of both kinds of captions at every point along the way of transmitting, receiving and recording TV signals.

(Analog TV users who depend on captioning may really be hurt by all this confusion, but they'd be better off if they got a CECB with good digital captioning features which can provide access to both types of captions.)

Dana

Using the TiVo with a CECB for open-captioned recordings

One interesting way of using the digital closed captioning features of a converter box is to record open-captioned programs to a TiVo or other recording device. TiVo has provided a free program, TiVo Desktop, to transfer recordings to a computer, but I've never been able to access the recordings because there were never any provisions made for decoding the captions in the program. With a CECB that can "open caption" programming that can then be recorded by the TiVo, however, that problem can be circumvented.

Right now, it's not easy to set up the TiVo for recording from a CECB, but there's a work-around.

At this time, people who use the older series 2 TiVos hope that the company will develop the capability to operate the converter boxes through the IR extender just like they have for the set-top boxes used for cable and satellite TV. TiVo is already providing the menu for recording digital signals for their HD boxes, so it shouldn't be difficult to allow the Series 2 boxes to utilize those existing menus. If TiVo would provide that menu, it would be a big help, but that's probably a ways away.

In the meantime, although I'm only using an antenna to receive television signals, I've used the TiVo Guided Setup to set up my TiVo box (Series 2) to use DirecTV AND antenna; this allows me to force the TiVo to go into a tunerless or "monitor" mode in order to use the output from the set top box (which is actually the converter box) while also giving me the option to record directly from the antenna for unattended recordings. This is just a temporary work-around but allows me to use the TiVo to record digital channels that don't have good analog reception, or an analog equivalent (like multicast channels).

The RF cable from the antenna goes straight into the RF input of the TiVo while the converter box's composite video and analog cables go into the equivalent input area for the TiVo (taking the place of the virtual set-top box for the phantom satellite service). (As far as I know, no set-top box is compatible with the converter boxes, so it doesn't matter which one is selected.)

It's necessary to delete lots and lots of satellite channels that you don't receive, but to keep the HD channels that correspond to local channels. I wound up getting double channels (one for antenna and one for "satellite") that are going to be confusing at first but which will provide guide information later on for the TiVo. (For example, the second duplicate channel will be for the "monitor" setting for the Tivo, which allows it to use the converter box. The CECB will have to be tuned to the correct channel by using the converter box's remote control.) If the quality of the reception for a particular analog channel is good, however, you can eliminate most of the duplicate channels for unneeded use of the converter box, and only leave duplicate channels for the channels that come in best via the converter box. (I kept HD channels for channels like 22 and 26 as there are several subchannels for those stations.)

Some of the multicast digital channels won't have any guide information at all provided by the analog TiVos, so some of the recordings for those channels won't be correctly described, and that will undoubtedly be confusing. We'll just have to wait for the TiVo company to change this situation, if ever.

But for now, this is a way to use a converter box to send a good signal to a TiVo that can be recorded, and one can choose whether or not to turn on the digital captions for an open-captioned recording. I'm thinking I might try to record open-captioned songs, for example, which I could then choose to transfer to my computer. (I enjoy music but my hearing loss is such that I can never understand the lyrics and usually have no idea about the meaning of a song.) I might also record open-captioned home improvement shows so I can refer to them later when doing a related project.

(The best way to do open-captioned recordings would be with a CECB that has an S-video output (the TiVo has an S-video input). So far, only the MaxMedia CECB appears to have both S-video output and digital closed captioning.)

Dana

Anyway, I'm wondering how clear the FCC has been about the need to provide both types of captions after the cessation of analog broadcasts. If TV station engineers haven't been made aware that they still need to be transmitting both kinds of captions, and if equipment manufacturers and other people in the industry haven't understood this either, then many people with hearing loss with CECBs that don't decode captions could be without access to captions for a significant period of time.

Dana
Here's some links for you:

http://www.atsc.org/faq/faq_closed.html

http://ncam.wgbh.org/dtv/toolkit/general/ncamdtvcapbrief.pdf

Ron

rrrroger, you brought in a quote of a message from another thread, which was out of context for this thread, ...... Please don't bring quotes from other threads here that are not directly related to evaluations of CECBs and which will bewilder everyone else here; ...... Incorrect.

I was quoting post 33 in THIS thread. Please don't make false accusations of "crimes" I did not commit. Thank you. This is very, very misleading to people who need captions, and I think all the coupon-eligible converter boxes should have been required to provide access to the digital closed caption features in the first place. The Coupon-eligible boxes are required to provide the SAME functionality as current analog television provides. That means outputing NTSC-compatible video. S-video, digital captions, electronic guides, et cetera are all considered "optional" extras and are not mandatory.

Repeat: They are only required to provide the SAME functionality as televisions have now. Extras are not required.

Suspect CS2 etc. are for alternate caption streams. In some territories it isn't unusual to have more than one subtitle stream on programmes (say English and Spanish in the US, English and French in Canada, English and Welsh in Wales etc.) I guess that CS1 and CS2 would let you chose between languages?

NBC's Telemundo does not have alternate languages, but it does offer dual-language subtitles. Spanish on CC1 and English on CC3. Pretty handy for watching those spanish telenovels.

Incorrect.

I was quoting post 33 in THIS thread. Please don't make false accusations of "crimes" I did not commit. Thank you. The Coupon-eligible boxes are required to provide the SAME functionality as current analog television provides. That means outputing NTSC-compatible video. S-video, digital captions, electronic guides, et cetera are all considered "optional" extras and are not mandatory.

Repeat: They are only required to provide the SAME functionality as televisions have now. Extras are not required.

rrrrrroger, what I should have said was that you're unnecessarily continuing an argument here from another thread that has already been discussed there. See my post from last week that had already answered your recent post here at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13313819#post13313819

Technically, you're not correct because there are extra features required of the converter boxes that are more than what analog TVs provide (stated in the above URL); I already said this, but you're continuing to make the exact same argument with the same person in a different thread even though your point was already answered. Enough already. Let's move on to more productive discussions.

Here's some links for you:

http://www.atsc.org/faq/faq_closed.html

http://ncam.wgbh.org/dtv/toolkit/general/ncamdtvcapbrief.pdf

Ron

Thanks, Ron.

From reading the second one closely, I see there's a reference to paragraph 63 of the FCC Report and Order released July 31, 2000 which states:

"We clarify, therefore, that in order for
programming distributors to count captioned digital
television programming toward their closed
captioning requirements in 47 C.F.R. Section 79.1, they also must transmit captions that can be
decoded by the decoder in that analog set."

However, that language was kind of buried in a Report and Order that was titled: "In the Matter of Closed Captioning Requirements for Digital Television Receivers" that doesn't appear specifically geared towards broadcasters----so I wonder if it might have been overlooked in view of the current problems with several TV stations in my area alone not broadcasting both types of captions.

The ATSC FAQ could have made it a lot more clear that both types of captions are required; it refers to "all captions" without being specific.

So I remain curious about what has actually been communicated to station engineers about the need to broadcast EIA-608 captions within the EIA-708 captions, or if the only communication from the FCC is an 8-year-old document that actually appears focused on digital television receivers.

Dana

NBC's Telemundo does not have alternate languages, but it does offer dual-language subtitles. Spanish on CC1 and English on CC3. Pretty handy for watching those spanish telenovels.

I've wondered if they ever did that but hadn't found where the English captions would be. (I wonder what the logic is for providing English captions and not English audio.)

On a CECB with digital captions, Service 3 might be the digital equivalent of CC3 for Telemundo, though the station might decide to use another Service number.

Dana - I know the Samsung DTB-H260F is not exactly a CECB, but here's my observations about it's close captioning abilities.

1. The availability of digital closed captioning features

Yes - Captioning is not available on the S-Video / composite outputs

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control

yes

3. The usability of the menu activated by the CC button and what the choices are

on/off

4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font provided
for those analog captions (if present)

N/A

5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions, particularly
the default font

Style 5 is very difficult to use. All the other (default Style 0-style 7 except 5) are quite usable

6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for
the digital captions

Yes- 3 sizes - not much difference

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision viewers
or for being able to watch the TV from a significant distance)

You can view the captions on my 32 inch Olevia from 13 feet away with no problems

8. How usable the optional translucent background is in providing sufficient contrast to the
characters used in the captioning

Very - 8 different colors and can be made transparent as well as translucent

9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect
analog captions automatically if there are no digital captions, jerky movements of captions, cut-off
captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.

None detected

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button, a raised dot on the 5 button, and dots
on the Power button (useful for low vision or blind users).

MTS button, Raised dot on "5", dots near power / antenna. In addition there are dots near both the
volume up/down buttons and the channel up/down buttons

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings.

It's there

12. Whether the CECB has crashed and what the circumstances were.
Can't answer

The Samsung's Digital Closed Captioning is superior to the Olevia's builtin DCC , IMO.

Dana - I know the Samsung DTB-H260F is not exactly a CECB, but here's my observations about it's close captioning abilities.

1. The availability of digital closed captioning features

Yes - Captioning is not available on the S-Video / composite outputs


Thanks for providing this evaluation, Scooper. From a look elsewhere on the forum, it looks like the Samsung DTB-H260F is an ATSC tuner that became available in 2004 (and was probably pretty expensive back then).

I'm really surprised the closed captioning isn't available through the S-video or composite outputs because the decoded captions should have been inserted into the video image and the S-video and composite outputs should then transmit all video information. I'm trying to think of why that would have happened:

a) Is it possible the DCC wasn't actually activated when you tried these outputs?

b) If you've doublechecked that, it sounds like there was a surprising design flaw in not allowing the captions to be sent out via those outputs.

What kind of cable did you use to connect the tuner to the TV? (If you used component video or HDMI, that would have made the captions look sharper as well, compared to captions from CECBs over RF, composite or S-video.)


4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font provided
for those analog captions (if present)

N/A


That's interesting, as I had thought perhaps any CECB that decoded native digital captions might also decode native analog captions. Not sure if there are requirements about that now.



5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions, particularly
the default font

Style 5 is very difficult to use. All the other (default Style 0-style 7 except 5) are quite usable


Samsung doesn't make a CECB, so we can't seem to generalize from this tuner to a CECB, but perhaps the same fonts are used in Samsung TVs.


6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for
the digital captions

Yes- 3 sizes - not much difference


Do you mean that the caption preview doesn't show the relative sizes well, or that there isn't actually much difference between the three sizes?

On the Insignia/Zenith, the preview suggests that Font 3 and Font 7 are equally large, but Font 7 is actually much larger, taking up more of the width of the screen than Font 3 does. The preview thus isn't accurate in showing the true sizes of the captions.


10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button, a raised dot on the 5 button, and dots
on the Power button (useful for low vision or blind users).

MTS button, Raised dot on "5", dots near power / antenna. In addition there are dots near both the
volume up/down buttons and the channel up/down buttons


I'm not familiar with MTS. Does the MTS button provide access to a second audio channel (necessary for descriptive video services)? Sounds like I'll need to clarify the question about SAP in any event.



The Samsung's Digital Closed Captioning is superior to the Olevia's builtin DCC , IMO.

Do you mean the Olevia's built-in analog captions? (I'm thinking it would be rare to use an external ATSC tuner for a TV with a built-in ATSC tuner; HD monitors don't normally have built-in digital closed captions, only analog ones.) Why did you find the Samsung's captions superior? Were the caption fonts better designed from the Samsung, or was it something else?

Thanks for providing this evaluation, Scooper. From a look elsewhere on the forum, it looks like the Samsung DTB-H260F is an ATSC tuner that became available in 2004 (and was probably pretty expensive back then).

I'm really surprised the closed captioning isn't available through the S-video or composite outputs because the decoded captions should have been inserted into the video image and the S-video and composite outputs should then transmit all video information. I'm trying to think of why that would have happened:

a) Is it possible the DCC wasn't actually activated when you tried these outputs?

b) If you've doublechecked that, it sounds like there was a surprising design flaw in not allowing the captions to be sent out via those outputs.

A - DCC WAS turned on the Samsung. so I'm sure there were no captions output on the NTSC outputs. You also must keep in mind the intended market of the Samsung - someone who already has an HD capable display, so the use of the NTSC outputs would usually be used for recording to say, a DVD recorder. In a use like this - captions are not normally desired.

What kind of cable did you use to connect the tuner to the TV? (If you used component video or HDMI, that would have made the captions look sharper as well, compared to captions from CECBs over RF, composite or S-video.)

I'm using HDMI, Samsung set to output 720p. I'd expect the same results using the component on any of 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. The TV only goes to 1368x768, so I just leave the Samsung at 720p. Besides, when I try 1080i HDMI into the TV - colors get messed up - peoples faces are blue. I don't have this problem with component from the Samsung

That's interesting, as I had thought perhaps any CECB that decoded native digital captions might also decode native analog captions. Not sure if there are requirements about that now.

Samsung doesn't make a CECB, so we can't seem to generalize from this tuner to a CECB, but perhaps the same fonts are used in Samsung TVs.

Do you mean that the caption preview doesn't show the relative sizes well, or that there isn't actually much difference between the three sizes?

Not much difference in the sizes. There is a difference, but it wasn't really a dramatic difference

On the Insignia/Zenith, the preview suggests that Font 3 and Font 7 are equally large, but Font 7 is actually much larger, taking up more of the width of the screen than Font 3 does. The preview thus isn't accurate in showing the true sizes of the captions.

I'm not familiar with MTS. Does the MTS button provide access to a second audio channel (necessary for descriptive video services)? Sounds like I'll need to clarify the question about SAP in any event.

Exactly. MTS is used to change between audio tracks (English, spanish, etc.)

Do you mean the Olevia's built-in analog captions? (I'm thinking it would be rare to use an external ATSC tuner for a TV with a built-in ATSC tuner; HD monitors don't normally have built-in digital closed captions, only analog ones.) Why did you find the Samsung's captions superior? Were the caption fonts better designed from the Samsung, or was it something else?

Some of us have found it to be an advantage to have more than one HDTV ATSC tuner. My TV does NOT have a digital audio output, so if I want to get the full ATSC HDTV experiance, I use my Samsung with the audio going to my Audio video receiver. The Samsung also has a signal quality meter, something that the TV lacks (and I find this feature very useful). I find the Samsung's captions to be better, and I especially like the idea that the background can be made transparent. This is not available on the TV itself.

A - DCC WAS turned on the Samsung. so I'm sure there were no captions output on the NTSC outputs. You also must keep in mind the intended market of the Samsung - someone who already has an HD capable display, so the use of the NTSC outputs would usually be used for recording to say, a DVD recorder. In a use like this - captions are not normally desired.


I think you are jumping to a conclusion there. Most hearing impaired people need to burn in their subtitles/captions to off-air DVD recordings for the recordings to be any use on replay. If you need subtitles to watch live TV, you'll need them to watch a recording.

(Or does the Samsung output Line 21 captioning in VBI on composite/S-video and the DVD recorder record and replay that allowing the TV to display closed captions?)

In the UK our analogue TV system had a subtitling system that didn't record well on VCRs (the data rate was too high and didn't survive on VHS - though it did on some S-VHS VCRs) - so digital TV boxes that burn in subtitles into the video have been a real plus for hearing impaired TV viewers - as recording the output of their digital set top box to VCR or DVD has allowed recordings to be made with burned in subtitles. (A few VHS VCRs had this facility - decoding analogue subtitles and burning them in - but it was not a widespread feature)

PVRs are even better - as they record the subtitle stream along with the audio (and audio description often) - allowing you to replay the recording with or without subtitles and with or without AD.

A - DCC WAS turned on the Samsung. so I'm sure there were no captions output on the NTSC outputs. You also must keep in mind the intended market of the Samsung - someone who already has an HD capable display, so the use of the NTSC outputs would usually be used for recording to say, a DVD recorder. In a use like this - captions are not normally desired.

Decoded captions might not be desired by most, but does the box relay native analog captions over those outputs?



I find the Samsung's captions to be better, and I especially like the idea that the background can be made transparent. This is not available on the TV itself.

Perhaps your TV was manufactured before the requirements for enhanced digital closed captions was put in force. The FCC DTV Rule and Order (http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Orders/2000/fcc00259.doc) published July 31, 2000, required new digital tuners to provide enhanced digital closed captioning features beyond what had originally been specified. That rule became effective for new tuners and new digital TVs exceeding a certain size on July 1, 2002 (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-02-1860A1.pdf).

A - DCC WAS turned on the Samsung. so I'm sure there were no captions output on the NTSC outputs.

FYI, I've seen both native analog and native digital captions at the same time from a CECB (the Insignia and Zenith), so I imagine it's possible for the Samsung to send 608 data over the signal even if it was set to decode digital captions.

Most hearing impaired people need to burn in their subtitles/captions to off-air DVD recordings for the recordings to be any use on replay. If you need subtitles to watch live TV, you'll need them to watch a recording.

I haven't set up one of the "coupon boxes" yet (just bought one yesterday), but I've been feeding an S-video output from my Sony OTA HD DVR to a DVD recorder for a couple of years now. When its output is set to 480i, the Sony passes the caption data in the VBI just as with a direct analog broadcast signal, and my DVD recorder records it. I can play back the recorded DVD just like a commercial DVD that has closed captions, by enabling captions on my TV.

This works only if I have upconversion and progressive scan turned off in the DVD player, which is OK for video material anyway. To avoid the inconvenience of turning those features on and off when I switch between film and TV sourced material, I use two DVD players: a cheap one for TV stuff and a more expensive upconverting one for movies.

If I watch a broadcast live, through the Sony and the DVD recorder, I can have either the TV or the Sony, or both, decode the captions. Of course in the last case I get two sets of captions overlapping on the screen in different font styles and sizes, which isn't very pretty. :p

I came across a useful pdf document called "Implementing Closed Captioning for DTV," written by Graham Jones of the National Association of Broadcasters, at:

http://www.atsc.org/faq/Implementing_Closed_Captioning.pdf

(This would be a useful document to reference when there are problems receiving captions from TV stations since it would help the station to troubleshoot the problems.)

The document refers to "DTVCC captions" as "actual 708 caption data" as compared to the "608 caption data" and makes clear that both are required by the original CEA-708-B standard. As such, 708 captions don't include 608 captions; the EIA-708B standard requires that both of them are sent out but only the caption data used for advanced captioning are called 708 captions.

Nitpickers could still criticize the use of the term "digital closed captions" and perhaps even DTVCC because all the captions required by EIA-708B are sent digitally.

I don't see concise terminology to distinguish the kind of 608 data that is required within the full ATSC emission bitstream from the 608 captions broadcast over NTSC video. Both can be called 608 data.

I had erred earlier in my use of the term "native analog captions." This document says "Captions that are encoded and transmitted in the 608 or 708 format in which they were authored may be referred to as "native 608" or "native 708" captions. "Native 608 captions" can't apply to the EIA-608 captions required by the EIA-708b standard.

On page 3, under "608 Legacy Data," "the CEA-708-B standard allows for, and requires, carriage of "the 608 data in set top boxes or integrated receivers. "Some DTV receivers may use the 608 data when 708 data is not available for providing closed captioning on the DTV display, but this is not mandatory and is not implemented in many receivers." (italics added)

My Sharp HDTV may be able to decode digitized 608 data automatically when 708 data isn't available from the local PBS station WETA, but the Insignia and Zenith CECBs don't do so. (They require a manual switch to CC1 captions.) It'll be interesting to see how other CECBs with different chips behave.

I don't see concise terminology to distinguish the kind of 608 data that is required within the full ATSC emission bitstream from the 608 captions broadcast over NTSC video. Both can be called 608 data.

There's nothing to distinguish. It's the same data.

Ron

There's nothing to distinguish. It's the same data.

Ron

Though it is helpful to state how it is carried presumably.

ATSC 608 will be carried as packets in a transport stream with a PID separate to that of the video stream PID (and presumably married in the PMT) - whilst NTSC 608 will be carried embedded in the analogue video as data on Line 21 in blanking.

When received by an external STB presumably the ATSC 608 packets can either be decoded to text and this text burned into the video leaving the box (so the receiver adds the text carried over component, composite, S-video, HDMI etc.) OR it codes the ATSC 608 packets it receives into Line 21 in VBI for decoding in the TV, which means the signal has to be restricted to a 480i signal (?) over composite, S-video or 480i component (don't think HDMI would support it)

Though it is helpful to state how it is carried presumably.

ATSC 608 will be carried as packets in a transport stream with a PID separate to that of the video stream PID (and presumably married in the PMT) - whilst NTSC 608 will be carried embedded in the analogue video as data on Line 21 in blanking.

When received by an external STB presumably the ATSC 608 packets can either be decoded to text and this text burned into the video leaving the box (so the receiver adds the text carried over component, composite, S-video, HDMI etc.) OR it codes the ATSC 608 packets it receives into Line 21 in VBI for decoding in the TV, which means the signal has to be restricted to a 480i signal (?) over composite, S-video or 480i component (don't think HDMI would support it)

Thanks for coming up with the terms "NTSC 608" and "ATSC 608"...I think that due to various problems, the ATSC 608 data can wind up being corrupted compared to the NTSC 608 data transmitted by the same broadcaster that is currently sending out digital and analog versions of the same program. It's not clear at what point this happens, but the consumer can end up not being able to see analog captions properly for the digital channel while being able to see analog captions on the analog channel.

This appeared to happen recently when I TiVo'ed part of a digitized Law and Order rerun instead of the analog program. The ATSC 608 data didn't come through completely, so I couldn't understand the rest of the program. The problem rerun was transmitted through the myNetworkTV affiliate, my20. ( That affiliate also gives my Sharp HDTV problems since the TV can't decode any digital captions on Law and Order reruns from that affiliate).

I've been able to TiVo other digitized programs fine, even recording the decoded digital captions, but still being able to decode the converted ATSC 608 data on my analog TV.

So there may be something about how the ATSC 608 data is handled for the Law and Order syndicated programs which prevents that data from showing up properly or may even corrupt it, while the NTSC 608 data is left intact. It can thus be very useful to be able to say "ATSC 608" to distinguish it from the "NTSC 608" data that's supposed to be the same, but might not end up that way in the consumer's equipment. In my case, the ATSC 608 data for the Law and Order rerun that arrived at my CECB did not provide the same results as the NTSC data of the same program.

[It's interesting that the video signal may have to be restricted to 480i for the proper delivery of 608 data; the Motorola set top box used for Verizon Fios apparently has problems providing captions unless it's set to 480i. However, we don't have to worry about this for CECBs and it shouldn't be an issue when captions are decoded by the set-top box itself.]

Thanks for coming up with the terms "NTSC 608" and "ATSC 608"...I think that due to various problems, the ATSC 608 data can wind up being corrupted compared to the NTSC 608 data transmitted by the same broadcaster that is currently sending out digital and analog versions of the same program. It's not clear at what point this happens, but the consumer can end up not being able to see analog captions properly for the digital channel while being able to see analog captions on the analog channel.



Well analogue captions broadcast via analogue cable or analogue OTA are inserted into blanking by the broadcaster, passed untouched through the transmission and reception process, and remain embedded in the composite video received by the TV, and AIUI they are preserved by VCRs.

I'm not clear how DVD recorders preserve Line 21 data (which AIUI is outside the 480 of the 525 NTSC lines recorded by digital recorders, and which could be corrupted by MPEG2 anyway) - I assume they have to decode it to packets, record them separately in the DVD data stream and then re-insert them on replay?

Series 1 Tivos (we didn't get S2 or S3) in the UK does something similar with our subtitles - which are broadcast as teletext packets on a certain page (888 in the UK) of the text service, as we don't use the US Closed Caption standard (though some pre-recorded VHS tapes in the UK do/did). (The UK teletext spec includes a character attribute for "make this section transparent" - so you can see the background video on certain pages - not just subtitles, but sports score updates, newsflashes etc.) However the text data is a high bandwith service - so Tivo only records p888 data, which it re-inserts as teletext on replay. (This causes some TVs real problems - as they don't like an 888-only service and lock-up - so Tivo have a software version which inhibits subtitle recording in the UK)


This appeared to happen recently when I TiVo'ed part of a digitized Law and Order rerun instead of the analog program.

How was the programme received and how was it recorded by the Tivo?

Was it from an external ATSC/QAM or satellite receiver or from an internal ATSC/QAM receiver in the Tivo?


The ATSC 608 data didn't come through completely, so I couldn't understand the rest of the program.


If the recording was made via an external source - then presumably this box will have taken ATSC 608 data packets and re-inserted them as analogue NTSC 608 in blanking, which the Tivo will then have detected and recorded.

If the digital broadcast ATSC 608 packets were dodgy, or the STB insertion was not well implemented, that could have caused the problem?

If the recording was made via an internal tuner in the Tivo - similar questions apply.


The problem rerun was transmitted through the myNetworkTV affiliate, my20. ( That affiliate also gives my Sharp HDTV problems since the TV can't decode any digital captions on Law and Order reruns from that affiliate).


Presumably those are 708 captions you are talking about, not 608 ATSC packets?


I've been able to TiVo other digitized programs fine, even recording the decoded digital captions, but still being able to decode the converted ATSC 608 data on my analog TV.


Recording the digital captions "in vision" suggests you are using an external set top box into your Tivo. That suggests then that when recording a digital TV broadcast you are using an external source - and relying on the Tivo to preserve 608 NTSC captions - and the STB to correctly receive the ASTC 608 packets and re-insert them as NTSC 608 in blanking?


So there may be something about how the ATSC 608 data is handled for the Law and Order syndicated programs which prevents that data from showing up properly or may even corrupt it, while the NTSC 608 data is left intact.


Presumably the NTSC 608 data is present on the analogue service and the ATSC 608 data is present on the digital service. I would expect both are derived from the same source - which I would expect to be embedded in data recorded and replayed by the source VTR? (DVTRs allow for some areas of blanking data to be recorded intact without compression to allow for SDI "data in blanking" to be recorded and replayed)

It is thus the ATSC 608 chain - from broadcaster, via your set top box, via your Tivo, that has a weak link?


It can thus be very useful to be able to say "ATSC 608" to distinguish it from the "NTSC 608" data that's supposed to be the same, but might not end up that way in the consumer's equipment. In my case, the ATSC 608 data for the Law and Order rerun that arrived at my CECB did not provide the same results as the NTSC data of the same program.

But they were not from the same broadcast source were they? One was from a digital ATSC/QAM/Satellite transmission, the other via an analogue chain?

By the sound of it the path for both is 480i in your case though?


[It's interesting that the video signal may have to be restricted to 480i for the proper delivery of 608 data; the Motorola set top box used for Verizon Fios apparently has problems providing captions unless it's set to 480i. However, we don't have to worry about this for CECBs and it shouldn't be an issue when captions are decoded by the set-top box itself.]

AIUI when 608 caption data is embedded in Line 21 it has to be in the 480i format to make sense...

Well analogue captions broadcast via analogue cable or analogue OTA are inserted into blanking by the broadcaster, passed untouched through the transmission and reception process, and remain embedded in the composite video received by the TV, and AIUI they are preserved by VCRs.

I'm not clear how DVD recorders preserve Line 21 data (which AIUI is outside the 480 of the 525 NTSC lines recorded by digital recorders, and which could be corrupted by MPEG2 anyway) - I assume they have to decode it to packets, record them separately in the DVD data stream and then re-insert them on replay?


I don't know how TV stations get the recordings of programs that have both types of captions. I've been told there's no mechanism within DVDs to record 708 captions, however. Hard drives are usually considered to be able to capture HD programming intact but I don't personally know if they can capture EIA-708 data or if there's another way to do that.


How was the programme received and how was it recorded by the Tivo?



Perhaps you missed my earlier posting in this thread on how I've set up my Series 2 TiVo to record from either the antenna or a converter box; it's at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13364905&highlight=TiVo#post13364905

My analog Series 2 TiVo is thus set up to receive analog channels through the antenna input and to receive digital channels via the CECB through the composite input (but I presently have to change the digital channels through the CECB). This setup allows me to TiVo programs on multicast channels, including programs that look much better on the digital channel than on the analog channel. I can also then TiVo-record open-captioned programs if I wish, which I can then choose to transfer to my computer, although the guide information will be incorrect much of the time.


If the recording was made via an external source - then presumably this box will have taken ATSC 608 data packets and re-inserted them as analogue NTSC 608 in blanking, which the Tivo will then have detected and recorded.


The TiVo itself does the recording of the analog output from the converter box, and has done them perfectly for programs from other stations. The 608 data has come through intact for recordings of programs on digital channels through the CECB.


If the digital broadcast ATSC 608 packets were dodgy, or the STB insertion was not well implemented, that could have caused the problem?


Since other recordings from other channels have been fine, something appears amiss with the myNetworkTV affiliate's transmission or their recording of the Law and Order rerun. These reruns are of somewhat recent programs that probably had digital captions. I wonder if their equipment detects and treats differently the reruns of programs that have only 608 captions versus 708 and 608 captions. If there's no such detection, there could be a problem caused by using a mechanism to upconvert 608 captions to 708 captions when there are already 708 captions available, for example.

To clarify further, the NTSC 608 data was fine on channel 20; the 608 data did not come through intact for channel 20.1 from the same station, which is what I had recorded. I haven't noticed the problem with captions on 20.1 at other times, but I don't usually watch that channel at prime time hours and will need to doublecheck whether similar problems are happening with first-run programming (which would help isolate the problem further).

At any rate, the CECB with digital closed captions can help diagnose current problems with the captioning that is being provided over digital channels.

I don't know how TV stations get the recordings of programs that have both types of captions.


I think that it is the TV station that decides whether the captions are 608, 708 or both, rather than the source of the show. In other words the delivered video tape of the show (or the file if it has been syndicated by a non-tape method?) contains the captions in a format that can be coded as 608 or 708 - or both?


I've been told there's no mechanism within DVDs to record 708 captions, however.

That would make sense - AIUI there is no standard to carry 708 captions via a non-broadcast method. Other than burning them in as open captions there is no method to carry 708 data via a composite/HDMI/Component/S-video connection AIUI. (But I'm a Brit so don't claim to know everything about anything!)


Hard drives are usually considered to be able to capture HD programming intact but I don't personally know if they can capture EIA-708 data or if there's another way to do that.

HD recorders integrated into boxes with ATSC tuners can presumably just record the entire transport stream associated with a channel - including secondary audio and ATSC 608 and 708 data streams?


Perhaps you missed my earlier posting in this thread on how I've set up my Series 2 TiVo to record from either the antenna or a converter box; it's at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13364905&highlight=TiVo#post13364905

Yep...


My analog Series 2 TiVo is thus set up to receive analog channels through the antenna input and to receive digital channels via the CECB through the composite input (but I presently have to change the digital channels through the CECB). This setup allows me to TiVo programs on multicast channels, including programs that look much better on the digital channel than on the analog channel. I can also then TiVo-record open-captioned programs if I wish, which I can then choose to transfer to my computer, although the guide information will be incorrect much of the time.


So your CECB burns in captions as open captions, rather than inserting them into blanking for your TV to decode?


The TiVo itself does the recording of the analog output from the converter box, and has done them perfectly for programs from other stations. The 608 data has come through intact for recordings of programs on digital channels through the CECB.


So your 708 captions are open-captioned and burned into the recordings, but ATSC 608 captions are not burned in and carried in blanking, recorded, and decoded by your TV and not your CECB?


Since other recordings from other channels have been fine, something appears amiss with the myNetworkTV affiliate's transmission or their recording of the Law and Order rerun. These reruns are of somewhat recent programs that probably had digital captions.


I'm not clear that the programme source defines whether a show has 708 "digital" captions or ATSC 608 captions. My understanding is that the captions are coded in a format that would allow a station to encode the captions in either format? I'm not an expert on US subtitle delivery though.


I wonder if their equipment detects and treats differently the reruns of programs that have only 608 captions versus 708 and 608 captions. If there's no such detection, there could be a problem caused by using a mechanism to upconvert 608 captions to 708 captions when there are already 708 captions available, for example.


I'm not clear that the source differentiates between 608 and 708 captions.

Is the channel a networked or locally derived service? If a networked service then it could depend on how the network distributes their signal I guess?


To clarify further, the NTSC 608 data was fine on channel 20;


Is that NTSC analogue channel 20 tuned using an analogue source - or digital channel 20 tuned using a CECB?


the 608 data did not come through intact for channel 20.1 from the same station, which is what I had recorded.


That is a recording made from a CECB tuned to 20.1 connected to the Tivo?


I haven't noticed the problem with captions on 20.1 at other times, but I don't usually watch that channel at prime time hours and will need to doublecheck whether similar problems are happening with first-run programming (which would help isolate the problem further).


Yep - could be that a local station timeshifting isn't timeshifting the caption data and just the video?

> HD recorders integrated into boxes with ATSC tuners can presumably
> just record the entire transport stream associated with a channel
> - including secondary audio and ATSC 608 and 708 data streams?

An ATSC tuner with a computer interface (PCI card, Ethernet, Firewire, USB, ...)
can deliver the entire transport stream. Some tuners allow filtering
just the PIDs you want, reducing the amount of disk space required.
Or you can filter it later with a utility such as dtvstream.

I don't know if any of the popular software (mplayer, xine, ffmpeg, etc.)
can decode the closed captions?

ATSC 608 will be carried as packets in a transport stream with a PID separate to that of the video stream PID (and presumably married in the PMT) - whilst NTSC 608 will be carried embedded in the analogue video as data on Line 21 in blanking.

A correction. Closed caption data (either EIA-608 or EIA-708) is carried in the picture user data of every MPEG-2 video frame and not on a separate PID (like teletext). Picture user data works better with inverse telecine, since you can match the number of line 21 cc_data items to the number of repeated fields in the MPEG-2 video frame.

There's been many Closed caption picture user data formats over the years. Before ATSC and digital cable, encoder companies just made up there own format. There was a C-Cube, Divicom and Minerva format. Cable head-ends have their own specification, SCTE 20.

http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/ANSISCTE202004.pdf

To make cable even more confusing, there's another specification for EIA-708 captions, SCTE 21.

http://www.scte.org/documents/standards/approved/SCTE212001R2006.pdf

The SCTE 21 specification is identical to the ATSC specification for EIA-708 closed captioning, but extends the user data to include other VBI waveforms like Nielsen ratings and even Gemstar/TV Guide EPG download.

For backwards compatibility, both SCTE 20 and SCTE 21 user data in sent on cable head-end bitstreams. This means that there's two copies of the EIA-608 data. One in the SCTE 20 user data and one in the SCTE 21 user data.

Ron

> HD recorders integrated into boxes with ATSC tuners can presumably
> just record the entire transport stream associated with a channel
> - including secondary audio and ATSC 608 and 708 data streams?

An ATSC tuner with a computer interface (PCI card, Ethernet, Firewire, USB, ...)
can deliver the entire transport stream. Some tuners allow filtering
just the PIDs you want, reducing the amount of disk space required.
Or you can filter it later with a utility such as dtvstream.

I don't know if any of the popular software (mplayer, xine, ffmpeg, etc.)
can decode the closed captions?

Think Sage and MythTV can.

Elgato's stuff decodes both WST and DVB subtitles in Europe.

A correction. Closed caption data (either EIA-608 or EIA-708) is carried in the picture user data of every MPEG-2 video frame and not on a separate PID (like teletext). Picture user data works better with inverse telecine, since you can match the number of line 21 cc_data items to the number of repeated fields in the MPEG-2 video frame.

There's been many Closed caption picture user data formats over the years. Before ATSC and digital cable, encoder companies just made up there own format. There was a C-Cube, Divicom and Minerva format. Cable head-ends have their own specification, SCTE 20.

http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/ANSISCTE202004.pdf

To make cable even more confusing, there's another specification for EIA-708 captions, SCTE 21.

http://www.scte.org/documents/standards/approved/SCTE212001R2006.pdf

The SCTE 21 specification is identical to the ATSC specification for EIA-708 closed captioning, but extends the user data to include other VBI waveforms like Nielsen ratings and even Gemstar/TV Guide EPG download.

For backwards compatibility, both SCTE 20 and SCTE 21 user data in sent on cable head-end bitstreams. This means that there's two copies of the EIA-608 data. One in the SCTE 20 user data and one in the SCTE 21 user data.

Ron

Apologies and thanks for the clarification - I jumped to the conclusion that 608 and 708 were carried in the same way as WST and DVB Subtitles are in the DVB spec. I was plainly wrong! This explains the ease of conversion but also the limited data rate and the lack of bitmapped broadcast (where the broadcaster sends a graphic overlay not text for the receiver to render)

I think that it is the TV station that decides whether the captions are 608, 708 or both, rather than the source of the show. In other words the delivered video tape of the show (or the file if it has been syndicated by a non-tape method?) contains the captions in a format that can be coded as 608 or 708 - or both?

The broadcaster remains responsible for the captioning, but both types of captions are required. I'd think that syndicated shows would come with at least the native captions that had been generated for the program, and possibly both might be present.

Page 4 of "Implementing Closed Captions" (http://www.atsc.org/faq/Implementing_Closed_Captioning.pdf) (mentioned earlier) discusses recording DTVCC data. It sounds that it's possible to record and playback DTVCCs by using video servers and separate files for the captions. (However, since I don't have sufficient background in this area, I don't understand the terminology and thus the document fully.)

Here's a question for the engineers on this thread:

The "Law and Order" series were created for one network, NBC, but are frequently syndicated to other networks. "Stargate Atlantis" was produced for the Sci-Fi HD channel but is being shown now on Fox channels. Both seem to have a problem with standard digital captions on my local channels since my Sharp HDTV can't display captions for those reruns on the digital channel, although the CECBs *are* able to display captions. Why would the Sharp HDTV have problems displaying any captions for such programs on the digital channels, while the CECB can display digital captions?

(If I were to complain to the stations involved that my HDTV can't see captions from their digital broadcasts even though a CECB can, they're likely just to tell me I have a problem with my HDTV, even though it can decode digital captions for prime-time programming from most channels. It's curious that the inexpensive but newer CECB can do a better job deciphering some digital captions than my 2006 HDTV can---but it seems the TV stations ought to be broadcasting digital captions in a way that's compatible with all HDTVs manufactured after July 1, 2002.)


So your 708 captions are open-captioned and burned into the recordings, but ATSC 608 captions are not burned in and carried in blanking, recorded, and decoded by your TV and not your CECB?


I don't have to turn on the 708 captions from the CECB, but if I want open-captioned recordings, I'll activate the 708 captions so the video images of them will be recorded. (There's a completely separate process to burn in open captions for films used in movie theaters that really does burn in the captions, creating openings for white light from the projector to shine through, so I think it's best to avoid using the term "burning" for 708 captions created by CECBs.)

I could choose to burn in the ATSC 608 captions if I wanted to, because the CECBs I've tested so far can decode ATSC 608 data as well as 708 data. (I don't like the look of the 608 captions decoded by the CECBs I've tested, however, so I'd choose better 708 captions instead.)

Now here's a kicker....

I can see two kinds of 608 captions at once via the CECB (the ones decoded by the CECB and the ones decoded by the TV.) The decoding of the ATSC 608 data by the CECB clearly doesn't prevent the same data from being converted into Line 21 captions and getting decoded by the analog TV.

Likewise, decoding the 708 captions on the CECB doesn't prevent my analog TV from decoding the line 21 captions that are still being transmitted by the CECB. At times, this phenomenon allows me to see that the 708 captions are significantly out of sync with the 608 captions; I've seen this with reruns of "The Simpsons" and the syndicated "Law and Order" reruns. (The digital captions can be so delayed as to make the program too confusing to watch.)

It's very useful to have a TV that has a CC button on the remote so that it's easier to turn the TV's CCs on or off. Unfortunately, the older TVs don't tend to have that feature.


Is that NTSC analogue channel 20 tuned using an analogue source - or digital channel 20 tuned using a CECB?

In the USA at this time, before the digital transition has taken place, all the analog channels are using the integers, and all the digital channels are represented with decimal points or sometimes dashes. If you see someone talking about 4.1, for example, that's a digital channel. On some remote controls, a button is marked with a dash instead of a period, and to go to a channel directly, one pushes 20 dash 1 to go to channel 20.1.

So at this time in the USA, channel 20 is automatically an analog channel, and 20.1 is automatically a digital channel. After the transition on February 17, 2009, I'd guess that the basic channel number will presumably be used for either the HD digital channel or an SD channel (but I don't know much about that process).

The CECBs are designed to tune only the digital channels (except for the few that can pass through analog channels).


That is a recording made from a CECB tuned to 20.1 connected to the Tivo?


Yes


Yep - could be that a local station timeshifting isn't timeshifting the caption data and just the video?

I have no idea! Seems to me there could be problems occuring at a variety of points along the way.

I also have a Samsung DTB-H260F, which is not a CECB. It is billed as a terrestrial HDTV receiver and “by-the-way” it receives clear QAM. It has HDMI, component, two sets of composite, digital audio, S-Video and RF out. The RF out appears to be a copy of the RF in, unaltered by the box. The signal level of RF out is reduced when the box is turned off.

Interestingly, it does not provide CC data on the composite and S-Video outputs, neither as graphics overlaid on the video image, nor as data in line 21 of the VBI. It also does not support the menu function nor the OSD on the composite and S-Video outputs. I wonder why Samsung even bothered to include those outputs since they are so limited in function.

The lack of caption data and/or caption graphics on the composite and S-Video interfaces means that recording to a DVD or VCR would not produce open or closed captions. No captions at all!

If the box were connected to a DVD recorder with the component or HDMI interfaces, then open captions could be recorded. The result would be a DVD with captions that are always there and the caption settings can not be changed. This would be the same if you were using a cable or dish STB connected to a “tuner-less” DVD recorder with component or HDMI cables. I do not yet have a DVD recorder with component or HDMI inputs, so I can’t test this paragraph, but it seems logical to predict what would happen.

1. The availability of digital closed captioning features.

Analog and digital captions are decoded and displayed on the component and HDMI interfaces. With CC1 set for analog captions and Serv 1 set for digital captions, as I channel surf, if the channel is transmitting both kinds of captions, I see the digital. If the channel is transmitting only analog captions, I see the analog. For testing purposes, I set the color of digital captions to yellow so I could know which I am viewing. Analog is always white.

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control

yes

3. The usability of the menu activated by the CC button and what the choices are

The remote control has a CC button, which only turns captions on or off. To change captions settings, the menu must be used.

4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font provided for those analog captions (if present).

The analog caption font looks just like the font provided by my TV. It is very clear and sharp.

5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions, particularly
the default font

Default – OK
0 – Looks like Courier – OK
1 – Too thin
2 – OK
3 – Bold. I like this one the best
4 – Small
5 – It tries to be a script. Not good.
6 – All Caps – big caps & small caps
7 - Thin


6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for the digital captions

It has a caption preview, and the differences in fonts can be seen. However, differences in opacity is not seen very well and I have to view actual captions on a program to judge the difference.

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision viewers or for being able to watch the TV from a significant distance)

There is not much difference in the three sizes. I think the biggest size is not very big on a 26 inch screen, but it is OK on a larger screen.

8. How usable the optional translucent background is in providing sufficient contrast to the characters used in the captioning.

My preferred viewing mode is solid foreground and solid background. However, some people may like various combinations of translucent, transparent, and colors. It can be set up for a particular type of program, then changed for another type of program. I suppose it is OK, but I would never use it. There is even a flashing mode! The box does not have any edge treatment of the font. Edge treatment may be good when a light background is used, or is present on the picture. It would make the font readable and I have seen some subtitles done that way.

9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect
analog captions automatically if there are no digital captions, jerky movements of captions, cut-off captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.

No problems that I can attribute to the box.

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button, a raised dot on the 5 button, and dots on the Power button (useful for low vision or blind users).

MTS button, Raised dot on "5", dots near power / antenna. In addition there are dots near both the volume up/down buttons and the channel up/down buttons

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings.

The manual has information, but not much. It is rather skimpy in other areas too.

12. Whether the CECB has crashed and what the circumstances were.

No problems.

FWIW, I've been using a Zenith DTT900 CECB for a week (after I wasn't able to get a DigitalStream CECB at a local Radio Shack). It is just like the Insignia but hasn't crashed.

The only other difference that I've noticed between the Zenith and the Insignia is that the documentation is written differently.

The Zenith user manual's table of contents is skimpy and says nothing about captioning.

The way the Zenith user manual (UM) describes the menu for the CCD button is:

"Selects caption mode if available
(Service 1-6 -->CC 1-4 -->Text 1-4 -->Off)"

The Insignia's UM (http://ezdigitaltv.com/support-files/ns_dxa1_manual.pdf) only said of the CCD button: "Press to select the closed caption mode, if available," but it behaves just like the Zenith's CCD button.

The Zenith UM describes the settings available under the "Options" menu and states:

"Caption

"Allows you to select an option for displaying Caption Data from the unit."

Neither UM explains that the CECB will automatically send line 21 data to the analog TV, and only the Zenith UM indicates the CECB's caption settings are for captions displayed (i.e. decoded) by the unit. (People whose analog TVs were already displaying captions aren't instructed to turn off those captions at any time.)

I've seen other user manuals do a better job of guiding the user through the process of setting up the captions. Neither CECB's UM suggests using Service 1 or CC1 or how to find out which one to choose.

The Zenith UM uses less than half of a small page to describe the caption features, but describes the "Digital Option" that controls setting up the customized features, while the Insignia UM gives partial instructions that don't explain how to set up the custom features of the digital captions. I'd rate both UMs as being poor with respect to helping people set up advanced closed captioning features.

More people may get confused with the Insignia if they follow the partial instructions there very literally because they won't understand how to adjust the settings for the captions. The Zenith explains how to navigate the entire menu system early on and leaves it up to the user to figure out how to get around the menu.

By the way, I'm realizing that I'd moved ahead too fast in my own evaluation of the CECBs. I had never looked at the digital captions set by each program; I had gone ahead and changed the 708 captions pretty quickly. The default 708 captions provided for "NCIS," for example, are very small. People who don't realize they have the option of using larger font sizes could be rather dismayed by what they see. (Perhaps that's what happened with the two people who tried the DigitalStream.)

I also have a Samsung DTB-H260F, which is not a CECB. It is billed as a terrestrial HDTV receiver and “by-the-way” it receives clear QAM. It has HDMI, component, two sets of composite, digital audio, S-Video and RF out.

Interestingly, it does not provide CC data on the composite and S-Video outputs, neither as graphics overlaid on the video image, nor as data in line 21 of the VBI. It also does not support the menu function and OSD on the composite and S-Video outputs. I wonder why Samsung even bothered to include those outputs since they are so limited in function.

1. The availability of digital closed captioning features.

Analog and digital captions are decoded and displayed on the component and HDMI interfaces. As I channel surf, with CC1 set for analog captions and Service 1 set for digital captions, if the channel is transmitting both kinds of captions, I see the digital. If the channel is transmitting only analog captions, I see the analog. For testing purposes, I set the color of digital captions to yellow so I could know which I am viewing. Analog is always white.

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control

yes

3. The usability of the menu activated by the CC button and what the choices are

The remote control has a CC button, which only turns captions on or off. To change captions settings, the menu must be used.

4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font provided for those analog captions (if present).

The analog caption font looks just like the font provided by my TV. It is very clear and sharp.

5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions, particularly
the default font

Default – OK
0 – Looks like Courier – OK
1 – Too thin
2 – OK
3 – Bold. I like this one the best
4 – Small
5 – It tries to be a script. Not good.
6 – All Caps – big caps & small caps
7 - Thin


6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for the digital captions

It has a caption preview, and the differences in fonts can be seen. However, differences in opacity is not seen very well and I have to view actual captions on a program to judge the difference.

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision viewers or for being able to watch the TV from a significant distance)

There is not much different in the three sizes. The biggest size is not very big on a 26 inch screen, but it is OK on a larger screen.

8. How usable the optional translucent background is in providing sufficient contrast to the characters used in the captioning.

My preferred viewing mode is solid foreground and solid background. However, some people may like various combinations of translucent, transparent, and colors. It can be set up for a particular type of program, then changed for another type of program. I suppose it is OK, but I would never use it. There is even a flashing mode! The box does not have any edge treatment of the font. Edge treatment would be good when a light background is used, or is present on the picture. It would make the font readable and I have seen some subtitles done that way.

9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect
analog captions automatically if there are no digital captions, jerky movements of captions, cut-off captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.

No problems that I can attribute to the box.

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button, a raised dot on the 5 button, and dots on the Power button (useful for low vision or blind users).

MTS button, Raised dot on "5", dots near power / antenna. In addition there are dots near both the volume up/down buttons and the channel up/down buttons

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings.

The manual has information, but not much. It is rather skimpy in other areas too.

12. Whether the CECB has crashed and what the circumstances were.

No problems.

I also have a Samsung DTB-H260F, which is not a CECB. It is billed as a terrestrial HDTV receiver and “by-the-way” it receives clear QAM. It has HDMI, component, two sets of composite, digital audio, S-Video and RF out.

Interestingly, it does not provide CC data on the composite and S-Video outputs, neither as graphics overlaid on the video image, nor as data in line 21 of the VBI. It also does not support the menu function and OSD on the composite and S-Video outputs. I wonder why Samsung even bothered to include those outputs since they are so limited in function.

1. The availability of digital closed captioning features.

Analog and digital captions are decoded and displayed on the component and HDMI interfaces. As I channel surf, with CC1 set for analog captions and Service 1 set for digital captions, if the channel is transmitting both kinds of captions, I see the digital. If the channel is transmitting only analog captions, I see the analog. For testing purposes, I set the color of digital captions to yellow so I could know which I am viewing. Analog is always white.

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control

yes

3. The usability of the menu activated by the CC button and what the choices are

The remote control has a CC button, which only turns captions on or off. To change captions settings, the menu must be used.

4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font provided for those analog captions (if present).

The analog caption font looks just like the font provided by my TV. It is very clear and sharp.

5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions, particularly
the default font

Default – OK
0 – Looks like Courier – OK
1 – Too thin
2 – OK
3 – Bold. I like this one the best
4 – Small
5 – It tries to be a script. Not good.
6 – All Caps – big caps & small caps
7 - Thin


6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for the digital captions

It has a caption preview, and the differences in fonts can be seen. However, differences in opacity is not seen very well and I have to view actual captions on a program to judge the difference.

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision viewers or for being able to watch the TV from a significant distance)

There is not much different in the three sizes. The biggest size is not very big on a 26 inch screen, but it is OK on a larger screen.

8. How usable the optional translucent background is in providing sufficient contrast to the characters used in the captioning.

My preferred viewing mode is solid foreground and solid background. However, some people may like various combinations of translucent, transparent, and colors. It can be set up for a particular type of program, then changed for another type of program. I suppose it is OK, but I would never use it. There is even a flashing mode! The box does not have any edge treatment of the font. Edge treatment would be good when a light background is used, or is present on the picture. It would make the font readable and I have seen some subtitles done that way.

9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect
analog captions automatically if there are no digital captions, jerky movements of captions, cut-off captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.

No problems that I can attribute to the box.

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button, a raised dot on the 5 button, and dots on the Power button (useful for low vision or blind users).

MTS button, Raised dot on "5", dots near power / antenna. In addition there are dots near both the volume up/down buttons and the channel up/down buttons

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings.

The manual has information, but not much. It is rather skimpy in other areas too.

12. Whether the CECB has crashed and what the circumstances were.

No problems.

I decided to return RCA DTA800 and bought Insignia. I used to have caption problems on RCA DTA800 on PBS. The problem is gone after I switch to Insignia.

I decided to return RCA DTA800 and bought Insignia. I used to have caption problems on RCA DTA800 on PBS. The problem is gone after I switch to Insignia.

Interesting difference. You had thought the Broadcom processor for the RCA DTA800B might have trouble handling a different kind of background (either transparent or translucent). Have you tried the different backgrounds with the Insignia on that PBS channel?

Not about CECBs but related to 608 captions. Bright House of Bakersfield used to carry some Los Angeles stations in clear QAM (now scrambled, analog versions are not). These signals were digital retransmissions of analog broadcast channels. 608 captions were intact, but V-chip ratings were lost. I suppose that the captions, being embedded in the video on line 21, got digitized along with the rest of the video when fed into the MPEG2 encoder/QAM modulator. Why was the rating info not passed along? Also, there were no 708 captions.

ISo at this time in the USA, channel 20 is automatically an analog channel, and 20.1 is automatically a digital channel. After the transition on February 17, 2009, I'd guess that the basic channel number will presumably be used for either the HD digital channel or an SD channel (but I don't know much about that process).

The old channel numbers will technically no longer be valid, that is, in your example, only 20.1 will continue to exist (along with any other subchannels such as 20.2 etc.). However, what happens when you enter "20" at that time will depend on your particular TV or set-top box.

Most digital-only tuners that I've used, including the single CECB I've tried so far (the Zenith) go to 20.1 automatically if you enter simply "20".

My Sony HD DVRs require me to enter "20.1" for the digital channel because they can also receive analog channels. Entering "20" takes me to the analog channel, at which point I can go to 20.1 by hitting the channel-up button. After the analog channels shut down, I expect to get a blank screen ("no signal") when I tune to 20. I suspect most TVs with built-in analog and digital tuners work the same way.

I suppose that the captions, being embedded in the video on line 21, got digitized along with the rest of the video when fed into the MPEG2 encoder/QAM modulator. Why was the rating info not passed along?
Line 21 does not get encoded into the MPEG-2 video. Only lines with actual picture information get coded. The typical SD MPEG-2 encoder starts on line 23.

Because CC data is inserted into picture user data, it's the MPEG-2 encoder's job to handle the insertion. For SD encoders, line 21 is captured separately and scanned pixel by pixel to extract the two CC bytes (which are then formated into the picture user data). For HD encoders, it's more complex. Either the CC data comes externally over some link (such as RS-232) or it's extracted from the digital VBI. The specification for this is SMPTE 334M.

Rating info is present in the XDS data that's encoded on line 21 field 2. It's possible that the SD MPEG-2 encoder wasn't bothering with field 2, and that's why the rating info was missing.

Ron

I can see two kinds of 608 captions at once via the CECB (the ones decoded by the CECB and the ones decoded by the TV.) The decoding of the ATSC 608 data by the CECB clearly doesn't prevent the same data from being converted into Line 21 captions and getting decoded by the analog TV.

I think all the external digital tuners that I've used do the same thing: they pass the line 21 data via 480i output to the TV regardless of whether they're decoding the captions themselves. At first glance, it would seem to be logical for them to either pass the line 21 data or decode the captions, but not both at the same time. Maybe the tuner manufacturers don't want to block any other data that line 21 might contain.

Interesting difference. You had thought the Broadcom processor for the RCA DTA800B might have trouble handling a different kind of background (either transparent or translucent). Have you tried the different backgrounds with the Insignia on that PBS channel?
I set the background to translucent. No problem.

The article at the following URL apparently discusses a new way of recording and encoding closed captions:

http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=337949

This new technology *may* be useful as a solution for fixing current problems that some broadcasters seem to have with the recording and delivery of closed captions. It would also seem to be an update to the document I referenced earlier (and which I've quoted below). The technology's use of timecoding seems promising, and I hope it works well.

BTW, the CECBs with digital closed captioning can be very useful for diagnostic purposes, especially when the analog TV is also decoding the 608 captions in addition to the CECB decoding digital captions. With some syndicated programs, there's a significant lag with one or the other type of captions and this can be seen through the discrepancies between the two captions. WTTG's broadcast of "The Simpsons" at 7 pm, for example, shows very delayed captions for both captions, with the analog captions being slower than the digital captions. For that affiliate or program, the analog captions may be downconverted from the 708 captions instead of the 708 captions being upconverted from the 608 captions, but both types of captions are too delayed to be usable. Try turning off the sound during an animated program with delayed captions and you'll see what I mean. (I sent off an email to WTTG about captioning problems yesterday, but they've never responded to emails from me in the past.)

(Clearly, the extremely delayed captioning process from WTTG doesn't seem to be using timecoding.)

I'd think that syndicated shows would come with at least the native captions that had been generated for the program, and possibly both might be present.

Page 4 of "Implementing Closed Captions" (http://www.atsc.org/faq/Implementing_Closed_Captioning.pdf) (mentioned earlier) discusses recording DTVCC data. It sounds that it's possible to record and playback DTVCCs by using video servers and separate files for the captions. (However, since I don't have sufficient background in this area, I don't understand the terminology and thus the document fully.)


Has the following question stumped everyone?


Here's a question for the engineers on this thread:

The "Law and Order" series were created for one network, NBC, but are frequently syndicated to other networks. "Stargate Atlantis" was produced for the Sci-Fi HD channel but is being shown now on Fox channels. Both seem to have a problem with standard digital captions on my local channels since my Sharp HDTV can't display captions for those reruns on the digital channel, although the CECBs *are* able to display captions. Why would the Sharp HDTV have problems displaying any captions for such programs on the digital channels, while the CECB can display digital captions?



I should add that another person with HD equipment also couldn't see digital captions for "Stargate Atlantis" from two Fox affiliates on his HD equipment, so the problem decoding digital captions is not just with my Sharp HDTV (purchased less than 1 1/2 years ago). I suspect that the Fox stations are broadcasting digital captions in a way that is incompatible with some HD equipment although CECB with newer chips may be able to decode the digital captions. WJLA (local ABC affiliate) and WDCA (myNetworkTV) are also having similar problems.


Dana

phillips TB100HH9

1. The availability of digital closed captioning features, including enhanced ones such as
changing the alignments, and the number of colors available.
Yes

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control
NO
3. The usability of the menu activated by the CC button and what the choices are
Not applicable

4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font
provided for those analog captions (if present)
The unit provide analog captions that can be decoded by the TV as well as the digital captions

5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions,
particularly the default font
Most of the FONTS are useable - except # 6

6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings
for the digital captions, and how well this predicts the largest font style.
Works

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision
viewers or for being able to watch the TV from a significant distance); do the longest lines
of the largest captions fill the entire width of the screen?
didn't test

8. How usable the optional translucent background is in providing sufficient contrast to the
characters used in the captioning

yes

9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect analog
captions automatically if there are no digital captions, jerky movements of captions, cut-off
captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.

Doesn't seem to be

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button to switch to a second audio channel
(for descriptive video services), a raised dot on the 5 button, and raised dots on the Power
button or other buttons (useful for low vision or blind users).

Yes on the audio button - no on any raised dots for low vision users - this makes the remote rather unfriendly for low- or no - vision users

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings,
including whether it advises choosing Service 1.

Clearly explained on 2 pages

12. Whether the CECB has crashed and what the circumstances were.
no crashes - I got a "long term" test going right now.

phillips TB100HH9


Thanks for reviewing this, Scooper. I hope if you get more information, you'll update your review by editing the existing one.

(The Title area may show up when you edit the posting; strangely it's not visible when doing a Quick Reply.)

The product is called the Philco TB100HH9 on the box, isn't it?


1. The availability of digital closed captioning features, including enhanced ones such as changing the alignments, and the number of colors available.
Yes


FYI, most CECBs may not provide the ability to change the alignment of the captions. Could you clarify whether this CECB does? For example, neither the Zenith nor the Insignia offer the ability to change the alignment, though my HDTV does. There are times when the captioning keeps covering up important information, so it would be nice to be able to change the alignment. I think that's an optional feature for CECBs, however, though mandatory for HDTVs.

The number of colors available may also vary among the CECBs. (Just realized I need to update my own review with this information.) My HDTV offers 35 colors, while the CECBs I've tested offer only eight, which I'll list in the review. (I much prefer the greater number of colors available with the HDTV.)


4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font
provided for those analog captions (if present)
The unit provide analog captions that can be decoded by the TV as well as the digital captions


How usable are the analog captions decoded by the converter box? (They can't be changed by the user, so if they're not good, that's important.)


6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings
for the digital captions, and how well this predicts the largest font style.

Works



Just to clarify for everyone else----I would guess you didn't test how well the caption preview predicts the largest font style (since you didn't test the fonts for #7 below).


7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision
viewers or for being able to watch the TV from a significant distance); do the longest lines
of the largest captions fill the entire width of the screen?
didn't test


If you can test this later, that would be very useful. I should change this question to ask how much of the width of the screen the longest lines of the largest captions take up.


10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button to switch to a second audio channel
(for descriptive video services), a raised dot on the 5 button, and raised dots on the Power
button or other buttons (useful for low vision or blind users).

Yes on the audio button - no on any raised dots for low vision users


Doesn't sound very blind-friendly compared to other remote controls.


12. Whether the CECB has crashed and what the circumstances were.
no crashes

I should probably change this question to be answered primarily by people who use captioning all the time to watch a variety of channels. (The Insignia didn't crash for quite a while until it was on a channel receiving problematic digital captions; other people probably haven't noticed problems with it because they don't use digital closed captions often enough.)

This CECB has pass-through of analog channels, but the MaxMedia CECB is supposed to have this feature as well. I don't know if the MaxMedia will have a CC button on the remote, however.

Note: Ron's evaluation of the Samsung DTB-H260F was accidentally delayed by the AVS Forum due to being held up in a queue for moderation. He posted this several days ago but it did not show up until Friday evening. New members' posts are apparently moderated automatically. (I myself am not a moderator on this forum, and this policy was established by the AVS Forum, not me.)

Ron's evaluation is at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13411173#post13411173

I also have a Samsung DTB-H260F, which is not a CECB. It is billed as a terrestrial HDTV receiver and “by-the-way” it receives clear QAM. It has HDMI, component, two sets of composite, digital audio, S-Video and RF out. The RF out appears to be a copy of the RF in, unaltered by the box. The signal level of RF out is reduced when the box is turned off.

Interestingly, it does not provide CC data on the composite and S-Video outputs, neither as graphics overlaid on the video image, nor as data in line 21 of the VBI. It also does not support the menu function nor the OSD on the composite and S-Video outputs. I wonder why Samsung even bothered to include those outputs since they are so limited in function.

I would guess that Samsung thought the typical user would need to be able to record TV programs using the composite or S-video outputs, but they didn't think about deaf and hard of hearing people needing to record Line 21 caption data also. That tuner probably doesn't translate the ATSC 608 caption data to NTSC 608 caption data as the CECBs are required to do. (Possibly the FCC did not address this issue with tuners.)

Therefore a CECB could come in handy as a way to provide closed captioned recordings of digital television programming.


The lack of caption data and/or caption graphics on the composite and S-Video interfaces means that recording to a DVD or VCR would not produce open or closed captions. No captions at all!


It's a shame that the ability to decode captions was removed from the S-video and composite cables; it would have been easy to leave that feature in.


If the box were connected to a DVD recorder with the component or HDMI interfaces, then open captions could be recorded. The result would be a DVD with captions that are always there and the caption settings can not be changed. This would be the same if you were using a cable or dish STB connected to a “tuner-less” DVD recorder with component or HDMI cables. I do not yet have a DVD recorder with component or HDMI inputs, so I can’t test this paragraph, but it seems logical to predict what would happen.


I suppose the Blu-ray DVD recorders might need HDMI or component video.


Thanks for sharing this evaluation, Ron!

http://lh6.google.com/dana.mulvany/R-X0-tpOQYI/AAAAAAAAAdE/SXpx2SA5g5g/SV400004.JPG?imgmax=512

I've reported problems earlier about the Insignia CECB crashing five times while using digital closed captioning. Those crashes happened only on channels with problematic digital closed captioning. ("Problematic" closed captioning means that the station isn't providing full digital captioning on either my HDTV or the CECB or both.)

I picked up a Zenith DTT900 on March 10th. It crashed Friday night, 3/21/08 (or early am 3/22/08) for the first time. The Zenith crashed on a commercial broadcast by the local myNetworkTV affiliate, my20 (WDCA). So far, getting digital closed captioning from that particular station seems to have caused four out of six crashes on the two CECBs I've tried out.

The variables involved seem to be:

* Digital closed captioning activated
* Problematic closed captioning from the station
* Using a CECB
* Possibly a transition between pre-recorded captions for a program and a different kind of caption from a commercial (since commercials are visible during several of the crashes and in one case, there was a black screen.) Another possibility is that "paint on" captions used by some commercials might clash somehow. (I'm not expert in this kind of issue, however, and would welcome other ideas.)


My Sharp HDTV does not crash like the CECBs do (with the computer code showing up on the screen), although it does freeze from time to time. (I don't know why the Sharp freezes, but one cause may be using the remote to change channels quickly. Other times it has frozen without me doing anything at all. The HDTV does not freeze often; the CECBs are crashing more often than it does. In both cases, I have to unplug the device to get it working again.)

The other stations in my area with problematic captions are WJLA (ABC), WTTG (FOX), and WETA (PBS). I think the other crashes of the Insignia CECB happened when the CECB was tuned to WJLA and WETA (with the black screen occurring on an SD channel from WETA).

> Line 21 does not get encoded into the MPEG-2 video.
> Only lines with actual picture information get coded.
> The typical SD MPEG-2 encoder starts on line 23.

So what is the garbage in the top few scan lines
if it isn't the captions? Visible (and rather annoying)
when you letterbox 720p or 1080i channels, or on a display
that does not overscan. Not always present, it comes and
goes.

> Line 21 does not get encoded into the MPEG-2 video.
> Only lines with actual picture information get coded.
> The typical SD MPEG-2 encoder starts on line 23.

So what is the garbage in the top few scan lines
if it isn't the captions? Visible (and rather annoying)
when you letterbox 720p or 1080i channels, or on a display
that does not overscan. Not always present, it comes and
goes.
It's not caption data. The line 21 caption format only exists for 480i. Basically, it's a mistake. Some encoder or decoder along the transmission path is starting on the wrong line.

Correct starting line numbers:

480i = line 23
720p = line 26
1080i = line 21
1080p = line 42

Ron

Konrad2, are you using a flat panel display?

dr1394> The line 21 caption format only exists for 480i.
dr1394> Basically, it's a mistake. Some encoder or decoder
dr1394> along the transmission path is starting on the wrong
dr1394> line.

A lot of material on 720p and 1080i is upscaled from SD.
So it is caption data that got shifted down by mistake?
It happens quite a bit, on multiple stations.

deeann> Konrad2, are you using a flat panel display?

No, a direct view CRT. I don't normally see the garbage
on 480i since it is hidden by overscan.

I've added a photo of the crash to the initial posting about the crash of the Zenith CECB and also modified the posting.

This afternoon, I had the HD broadcast of "Emma" from WETA (a local PBS affiliate) displaying on my HDTV along with the converted display from the Zenith CECB on my analog TV.

I'm hard of hearing and lipread, and became aware I could no longer use hearing and lipreading together to understand what was being said through the CECB. I doublechecked by watching and hearing the HDTV, and the audio and video were synchronized there.

The CECB, however, was delaying the audio significantly.

I turned off the CECB briefly, and that was successful in re-synchronizing the audio and video.

(The audio is set to mono, fwiw.)

Not being an audiovideo professional, I'm not sure what the CECB's inability to keep synchronizing the audio with the video means, but it sounds like a problem that would increase the longer the box was on, which would be particularly bad if one was using the box for recording purposes. Doesn't sound good in general.

(I had noticed a problem with synchronization with the Insignia when I had that box, but hadn't thought to turn off the CECB to see if that would correct and isolate the problem. This is a problem that probably won't show up for a few hours.)

Thoughts? The digital closed captioning was turned on at the same time. (The CECB's digital captions were also slightly out of step with the TV's analog captions.)

Konrad2, It doesn't sound like the same thing I get on my display when the V position is moved down (it looks like an end of image boundary, but might be a sync line, I used to know what it really was but don't remember right now).

Dana, one think I'm wondering about is how warm is the Zenith getting when the a/v slipping happens and are there any hot spots in certain areas besides around the top vents? I saw internal pictures from another thread and didn't see any heatsinks (at least ones that are apparent) and it looks to be a pretty small box.

Dana, one think I'm wondering about is how warm is the Zenith getting when the a/v slipping happens and are there any hot spots in certain areas besides around the top vents? I saw internal pictures from another thread and didn't see any heatsinks (at least ones that are apparent) and it looks to be a pretty small box.

The CECB hadn't been on a terribly long time, and has a lot of ventilation on top on the right hand side. It doesn't seem to feel very warm even when it's been on a long time, but I can only feel the outside of the box.

What would cause the problem to be fixed by turning the CECB off momentarily?

Yeah- in a lot of cases of looking for overheating you shouldn't need to pop it open, there would be a hot spot you should feel somewhere on the chassis (sometimes it's on the bottom if there are no vent holes there) or where the coax plugs in.

When you turn it back on it resets and queries all available streams, timecode and possibly guide data (unless it pre-fetches and saves guides to cache memory at certain intervals) if it's similar to other digital receivers. I should pick one of these up soon to try out myself.

Can you recreate the a/v sync slip after running it for a while with captions off?

Edit- and I wonder what happens if it slips and you change channels.

Yeah- in a lot of cases of looking for overheating you shouldn't need to pop it open, there would be a hot spot you should feel somewhere on the chassis (sometimes it's on the bottom if there are no vent holes there) or where the coax plugs in.

Can you recreate the a/v sync slip after running it for a while with captions off?

Edit- and I wonder what happens if it slips and you change channels.

Even when it's on a long time, I still don't feel any hot spots.

I can't understand TV without captions, and this problem took a long time to show up, so I'll continue to use digital captions to see if the sync problem shows up again---and will change the captions to see if that re-syncs it.

Hmmm...I had left it on WETA HD a long time before seeing the slip. Might be necessary to leave it on one channel a long time for the problem to show up.

Dana

Processor not strong enough to keep up? Turn it off, or change channel, and cache memory is cleared and start over at 0?

Failure in lip-sync is a very serious problem. I watched an old movie - "Singing in the Rain" which is (partly) about the transition from silent movies to talkies, and the early attempts at lip-sync sometimes didn't work out. The movie industry finally got it right. It's no problem on analog TV since the audio is sent at the same time as the video and both are received and displayed instantly. With digital though, we have buffers and the box has to have some means of pointers to know where real time is in the buffers. It sounds like Dana's CECB lost it's pointers. Maybe it is one defective box or a design bug that will impact lots of them.

In my evaluation of the Samsung DTB-H260F, I wrote that I did not have a DVD recorder with component (or HDMI) inputs. My thought was that I could record "open captions" by connecting the tuner to a DVD recorder. I checked a few stores and I did not see *any* DVD recorder with component input! They have component output, but not in. I assume their thinking is an ordinary DVD recorder can only record standard definition, so why have component in? Well, if HDTV tuners only have captions on component out, like mine does, then that is a good reason to have component in on recorders. Maybe a Blu-Ray DVD recorder has component in. That would be over-kill just to get captions!

Failure in lip-sync is a very serious problem. I watched an old movie - "Singing in the Rain" which is (partly) about the transition from silent movies to talkies, and the early attempts at lip-sync sometimes didn't work out. The movie industry finally got it right. It's no problem on analog TV since the audio is sent at the same time as the video and both are received and displayed instantly. With digital though, we have buffers and the box has to have some means of pointers to know where real time is in the buffers. It sounds like Dana's CECB lost its pointers. Maybe it is one defective box or a design bug that will impact lots of them.

I had noticed a slip with the audio/video on the Insignia CECB earlier but hadn't thought to check it against the HDTV at the time, and had thought the sync problem might have originated from the transmitting station.

I wonder if the digital closed captions are somehow overloading the available cache memory/buffers and causing the crashes I saw with the Insignia and Zenith (no one has reported a problem with crashes if they're not using digital closed captions). There might also be a related problem with time code information not getting through, which contributes to the synchronization problem.

I think this is probably a problem with all the LG chips used in the Insignia and Zenith boxes.

I don't know how serious this is, though. Do crashes and sync slippage problems take a toll on the CECB, and will they wear out faster because of the crashes? I imagine if they were left on in a frozen position due to a crash, they wouldn't turn off, and that might be bad for the CECB. Could they be a fire hazard if they heat up because of being stuck in a crash? (Consider that we'll want to leave them on for a long time if we want to record something from the CECB.)

As a result of setting up my TiVo to watch the output from any CECB that I'm evaluating, I was able to look back at what led up to the second crash the Zenith CECB had early this morning.

It turns out that the Zenith crashed in response to a commercial featuring "Children's Benadryl Perfect Measure," which appears to be like the same one that caused the first crash of the Zenith CECB. The actors were clearly the same, but there might have been a shorter version of this commercial as I couldn't find an exact duplicate of the first picture in the commercial.

Here's the first crash of the Zenith:

http://lh3.google.com/dana.mulvany/R-3iZ9pOQdI/AAAAAAAAAeg/58SO8nH99gY/s144/SV400004.JPG.jpg

Here's a photo from the commercial this morning that led to the second crash that shows the same actors from the first crash:

http://lh3.google.com/dana.mulvany/R-3ih9pOQeI/AAAAAAAAAeo/v0XBx0JBcdM/s144/SV400008.JPG.jpg

Here's the second crash of the Zenith:

http://lh6.google.com/dana.mulvany/R-3imtpOQfI/AAAAAAAAAew/C9_xe-SzObs/s144/SV400016.JPG.jpg

(The actress with short black hair on the right side in the first crash is the same one on the left side in the second crash.)

Moreover, as I look at the pictures of the other crashes for the Insignia, two featured commercials that seem to be related to medicine or medically-based cosmetics of some kind, so I'm wondering if the same outfit is producing and captioning the commercials that were on at the time of the crashes.

I've taken pictures of 5 out of the 7 crashes; 3 of the 5 crashes experienced by the Insignia CECB and 2 of the 2 by the Zenith. (One crash from the Insignia happened on an SD channel from WETA, a PBS affiliate, and the picture was black.) In all cases, the digital captioning had been activated.

I've uploaded pictures of the crashes at:

http://picasaweb.google.com/dana.mulvany/CECBCrashes

You can see larger versions of the pictures above at that URL.

My hypothesis is that there's something about the 708 captioning from some commercials that is overloading the components within the CECB that handles the digital captioning. So far, no other user of the Zenith or Insignia CECB on the AVS Forum appears to be using digital closed captioning all the time, so they're not experiencing these crashes.

This could be a problem for other CECBs that have digital closed captioning. If more people would try out different CECBs with digital closed captioning for a long time, we'd have a better idea whether this is a problem for all CECBs.

(Most of the crashes have happened on the local myNetworkTV affiliate channel, so that might be a good channel to check out.)

dmulvany,

Thank you for grouping together all of your crash pictures.

Either there is a general error message or a problem with the cc Parse
I suspect that their is a invalid or unprintable ASCII code.

Did you contact your Station with the problem?
If you did then the 45 days is coming close and you should file a FCC Complaint.
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/dro/tips_on_filing_cc_complaint.html

dmulvany,

Thank you for grouping together all of your crash pictures.

Either there is a general error message or a problem with the cc Parse
I suspect that their is a invalid or unprintable ASCII code.

Did you contact your Station with the problem?
If you did then the 45 days is coming close and you should file a FCC Complaint.
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/dro/tips_on_filing_cc_complaint.html

I've emailed several stations about the captioning problems, though not about the crashes since that seemed like a hardware problem with the CECB. Have only heard back from WTTG/WDCA, and that engineering department thinks they're transmitting the captions fine and seems to be thinking there's something wrong with my fairly new HDTV (even though other HD equipment also has similar problems not getting digital captioning from those channels, and even though I can get captions fine from digital channels of other stations).

I'm a bit concerned that some stations and cable companies are rather quick to ascribe problems to causes other than their own equipment (I've heard of many consumers getting this kind of response). I do plan to write formal complaints documenting numerous problems. My understanding is that it's especially important to document problems before the end of this quarter, and then I'll have some time to write up the letters to each station. I would have to follow up with a complaint to the FCC within 30 days after getting a formal response from the station if I'm not satisfied with that response (or 45 days after I send in my letter if I never get a formal response). If I waited to document problems until April 1st, however, the station would technically have until July 15th to respond.

Anyone know if we can find out how the FCC has responded to previous complaints about digital closed captioning?

Dana

... Anyone know if we can find out how the FCC has responded to previous complaints about digital closed captioning? ... You could try contacting the FCC Consumer Center and asking:

FCC Consumer Center

www.fcc.gov/cgb
E-mail: fccinfo@fcc.gov

Contact Us Toll Free
Federal Communications Commission
Consumer & Governmental
Affairs Bureau
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, D.C. 20554

1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322)

TTY: 1-888-Tell-FCC (1-888-835-5322)

Fax: 1-866-418-0232

Avio

Review of the Channel Master CM-7000 captioning capabilities:

1. The availability of digital closed captioning features:

Yes. The CM offers the following features for customizing digital captions:
Size, Font, Text Color, Text Opacity, Background Color, Background Opacity, Edge. Seven fonts and eight colors are available.

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control:

Yes (marked as Subtitle)

3. The usability of the menu activated by the CC button:

The first push of the button shows the current setting at the bottom of the screen. Each push steps through Digital-1 through Digital-6, then through CC1, CC2, Off. It thus takes nine pushes of the Subtitle button to go from Digital-1 to the OFF position, and there is no way to go back one step if you've gone too far.

4. The ease of reading the font provided for analog captions decoded through the converter box:

Poor. The box uses its default font and size, which is very narrow. A full line of text spans less than half the width of the screen. You are better off using the TV's analog captions, if available.

5. The ease of reading the seven different fonts available for digital captions:

Style options are Default, Font-1,2,3,4, Casual, Cursive, Caps
Font-1,2,Caps are serif fonts
Font-3,4,Casual are sans-serif fonts
Cursive is a script font - difficult to read

6. The availability of a "caption preview" when changes are made in the settings for the digital captions:

Yes, and it is a fairly good indication of the actual caption size.

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision viewers):

Not large enough. Size options are Default, Small, Standard, Large
The size option changes only the text width. All three sizes are too narrow. Even at the Large setting, a full line of text spans only about half the width of the screen.

8. How well the optional translucent background provides a contrast to the characters used in the captioning:

Default contrast is inadequate. Edge effects can be added to improve visibility. For me, the most usable combination is Font-4, Large, Raised or Uniform Edge.

9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect analog captions if there are no digital captions, jerky movements, cut-off captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.:

The CM does not switch to analog captions automatically when there are no digital captions. You must manually switch the CM-7000 to CC1 for analog captions, or turn on TV's captions in order to see the analog captions.

The CM sometimes exhibits an issue with displaying certain digital caption programming (the kind that pops up rather than types out word-by-word). Some captions that would normally be aligned along the bottom of the screen appear near the middle of the screen, yet captions aligned to the top of the screen display properly. The alignment problems are not present for analog captions decoded by the CM.

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP button, a raised dot on the 5 button, and dots on the Power button (useful for low vision or blind users):

The control has an SAP button (labeled Audio), and the power button is red. There are no raised dots on the remote.

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings.

The manual does little more than show a picture of the OSD menu.

12. Whether the CECB has crashed and what the circumstances were.

None yet.

Overall opinion:

In general, the captions are simply too small - the CM's digital captions (large size and widest font options) are about 2/3 height and 1/2 width of my TV's built-in analog captions.

The CM-7000 is one of the few CECB's with S-Video output. Compared to composite video, the benefit of S-video is the absence of dot-crawl artifacts. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl) Captions via composite video may have a shimmering or flickering effect, most pronounced when using caption colors other than white. These artifacts are not present when using S-video. However, this added clarity may not make up for the CM-7000's very small caption text size.

The attached photo shows both the CM-7000 digital captions (large size, Font-4, using S-Video) and my TV's built-in analog captions. The CM-7000's digital captions (top) are quite small, but S-video helps make them clear and reasonably usable if you have good vision and/or a large-screen TV. Unfortunately, the CM-7000 has no larger fonts, so these captions can be challenging to read from across a room. My TV's built-in analog captions (bottom) take up a lot of screen space but are very easy to read from a distance.

Review of the Channel Master CM-7000 captioning capabilities

Overall opinion:

In general, the captions are simply too small - the CM's digital captions (large size and widest font options) are about 2/3 height and 1/2 width of my TV's built-in analog captions.

The CM-7000 is one of the few CECB's with S-Video output. Compared to composite video, the benefit of S-video is the absence of dot-crawl artifacts. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl) Captions via composite video may have a shimmering or flickering effect, most pronounced when using caption colors other than white. These artifacts are not present when using S-video. However, this added clarity may not make up for the CM-7000's very small caption text size.

Dingo, thank you very much for doing this evaluation. I really appreciate the detail you provided about how large the captions are. Certainly is disappointing that they're so small.

If you can get around to it, it would be great to see a picture of the best digital captioning you can arrange on the CM, using the S-video. (Which is something I need to do myself, actually, for the Zenith/Insignia.)

I'm hoping the other CECBs with S-video and DTVCC will do a better job with the DTVCC, but there aren't many known with both features. The DigitalStream D2A1D10
and D2A1D20 and the MaxMedia MMDTVB03 are supposed to have both, but the DigitalStream DTX9900 has already been criticized for having small default captions (though we haven't seen a full evaluation yet and don't know whether the large ones are any better).

Anyone know for sure if it is the tuner itself that will control how the captions are decoded, or does the chip have anything to do with the advanced closed captioning features? If the tuner controls all of the advanced captioning features, then information about the tuner should be helpful for predicting what kind of captions we'll see in other CECBs with the same tuner. (I could certainly use an explanation of what general CECB features are controlled by the ATSC chip as opposed to the tuner.)

The ChannelMaster has the Thomson DTT76850 tuner, for example, which is the same tuner for the Daewoo DAC-100, -200, -300. Don't know of any other CECB with the same chip, though.

Terminology is confusing our conversation...you should say "SoC" vice "tuner"...

Many people erroneously use "tuner" as in "NTSC tuner" and "ATSC tuner",
when in reality they should be using NTSC Decoder and ATSC Decoder,
which are performed by a high speed digital signal processor (computer).

The "tuner" is actually the tin-can RF module that "tunes" to the desired
frequency, amplifies the RF signal and filters out undesired frequencies.
These are still pretty much what has been used in TVs for decades now.
In the CM-7000, the "tin-can" tuner is a Thomson DTT76850:
http://www.thomson.net/GlobalEnglish/Products/tuners/Documents/datasheet/Datasheet_DTT7685X_eng.pdf

Until recently, the ATSC Decoder has been a separate chip, but in most
converters it has been built into the single big SoC chip.

The System-On-A-Chip (SoC) usually includes the MPEG2 Digital Decoder,
performs display processing and controls operator menus.

In CM-7000, ST Microelectronics supplies separate STV0373 ATSC Decoder
and STx7707 SoC:
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/bd/12654/stm7710.pdf
http://www.st-japan.co.jp/stappl/productcatalog/pdf_pamph/p34.pdf

If you can get around to it, it would be great to see a picture of the best digital captioning you can arrange on the CM, using the S-video.
Sure, I've added a photo to the evaluation. I should note that although the CM's fonts are too small for my taste, the captions can be quite usable if you have a large TV and/or good vision.

Terminology is confusing our conversation...you should say "SoC" vice "tuner"...

Many people erroneously use "tuner" as in "NTSC tuner" and "ATSC tuner",
when in reality they should be using NTSC Decoder and ATSC Decoder,
which are performed by a high speed digital signal processor (computer).

The "tuner" is actually the tin-can RF module that "tunes" to the desired
frequency, amplifies the RF signal and filters out undesired frequencies.
These are still pretty much what has been used in TVs for decades now.
In the CM-7000, the "tin-can" tuner is a Thomson DTT76850:
http://www.thomson.net/GlobalEnglish/Products/tuners/Documents/datasheet/Datasheet_DTT7685X_eng.pdf

Until recently, the ATSC Decoder has been a separate chip, but in most
converters it has been built into the single big SoC chip.

The System-On-A-Chip (SoC) usually includes the MPEG2 Digital Decoder,
performs display processing and controls operator menus.

In CM-7000, ST Microelectronics supplies separate STV0373 ATSC Decoder
and STx7707 SoC:
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/bd/12654/stm7710.pdf
http://www.st-japan.co.jp/stappl/productcatalog/pdf_pamph/p34.pdf

Thanks for the clarification.

If the ATSC Decoder is separate from the SoC, as with the ChannelMaster, would the MPEG2 decoder still be in the SoC, or is it variable? It would be useful to know exactly what component controls the captioning.

At any rate, I would guess that all the CECBs with the same chip as the Zenith/Insignia's chip (LGDT1111) will have the same closed captioning features, like the DigitalSTREAM DTX9900 and MicroProse. (If I'm wrong, please let me know.)

I'd also think that the comprehensive SoC chips from the same manufacturer will tend to use the same kind of advanced closed captioning features like font styles, even if the numbers are different.

> Do crashes and sync slippage problems take a toll on the
> CECB, and will they wear out faster because of the crashes?

Unlikely to harm the CECB. If you leave it frozen long enough
you could get phosphor burn on your TV. (LCDs are immune from
permanent burn-in, although they can get temporary burn-in.)

> I'm a bit concerned that some stations and cable companies are
> rather quick to ascribe problems to causes other than their own
> equipment

A properly engineered CECB would never crash, even if the station
were transmitting incorrect CC data. Poor reception could result
in garbage data being fed in. A properly engineered box must be
able to handle that.

> Anyone know for sure if it is the tuner itself that will control
> how the captions are decoded, or does the chip have anything to
> do with the advanced closed captioning features?

The tuner would have nothing to do with closed captions. Neither
would the demodulator. There is probably some sort of CPU (perhaps
a DSP, some of the mpeg decoders are DSPs) that does the captions.
If the box uses a SoC (system on a chip), the demodulator, CPU and
video out are probably all on the same chip.

> I could certainly use an explanation of what general CECB features
> are controlled by the ATSC chip as opposed to the tuner.

The RF tuner and 8VSB demodulator determine how well the box handles
poor reception conditions. The CPU and firmware would handle captions,
and be to blame for the "digital" fonts, and any crashes and freezes.
The video out would be to blame if the analog picture quality were
poor (for example fuzzy or unstable).

It might be possible to cure crashes/freezes with a firmware
upgrade.

When testing boxes for crashing, you could set them up, turn the
TV off, and leave the CECB on overnight. Next time you turn the
TV on, see if the picture is frozen.

In the particular case of the STV0373 ATSC Decoder (and nearly all other separate chips),
the interface to the SoC is in "Transport Stream" (TS) format and the SoC must
perform framing, Error Detection and Correction and then finally MPEG2 Decoding
before it can start filling in a picture frame buffer (an image....one of many).

The SoC can then overlay captions and other menus before outputting a video signal.
ALL of this complex digital signal processing fits into one really big chip.....amazing.....

LGDT1111, Auvitek AU8515, Broadcom BCM3543, TI TVP9007 and Zoran Supra741HD
SoC's include ATSC & MPEG2 Decoders plus ALL of the display functions.....fantastic.....

You would think the same version (e.g. "C" or "D" after LGDT1111)
would operate identically....but since they accept external Firmware
loads, the same chip version could operate somewhat differently,
depending on what they decided to change in the sofware.....

Sure, I've added a photo to the evaluation. I should note that although the CM's fonts are too small for my taste, the captions can be quite usable if you have a large TV and/or good vision.

Wow---it's incredible how small the "large" caption font is. I also wouldn't like having the captions right in the middle of the picture all the time. The captions would be likely to cover up people's faces, I'd imagine.

By the way, there can be huge differences in size according to what font style is chosen, and based on my own experience with my Sharp HDTV, the caption preview doesn't indicate which one will be the largest.

For example, here's the large Storybook font available from my Sharp HDTV;

http://lh4.google.com/dana.mulvany/R-8mStpOQmI/AAAAAAAAAgY/e1ei6Mi91n4/SV400010.JPG.jpg?imgmax=512

compared with the large Computer font from the same TV:

http://lh6.google.com/dana.mulvany/R-8mXNpOQoI/AAAAAAAAAgo/OFHVQgQ1l3s/SV400015.JPG.jpg?imgmax=512

Look at how misleading the previews of those fonts are; they erroneously indicate the storybook font would be larger than the computer font.

http://lh5.google.com/dana.mulvany/R-8mP9pOQlI/AAAAAAAAAgQ/eno5EeGeVIw/SV400008.JPG.jpg?imgmax=512
Preview of large Storybook font

http://lh3.google.com/dana.mulvany/R-8mVdpOQnI/AAAAAAAAAgg/ZIAWyL23Wbg/SV400013.JPG.jpg?imgmax=512
Preview of large Computer font

Because the previews aren't accurate, it's very misleading and people don't realize what a significant difference there can be in the sizes of the "largest" captions.

I've uploaded the previews for each font along with pictures of the captions at this Picasa album:

http://picasaweb.google.com/dana.mulvany/SharpHDTV

This illustrates how even an HDTV manufacturer isn't consistent about the captions it uses. It won't be surprising to see the same kind of inconsistency with the CECBs.

For now, it's going to be important for CECBs to offer at least a few fonts that are legible even if the majority are not. (On my Sharp HDTV, five of the fonts are too small to be usable, but I like the typewriter, computer and "as broadcast" choices.)

But to find the largest font, it means having to change the menu for every different font and then backing out of the menu to see what the real results are. Lots of people just aren't going to realize that right away if there's an inaccurate preview function (which is a problem with the Zenith/Insignia CECBs) and the wide disparity in "large" sizes between the different fonts that are available. The inaccurate preview function may have also misled the engineers and their bosses as well!

Dana

> Do crashes and sync slippage problems take a toll on the
> CECB, and will they wear out faster because of the crashes?

Unlikely to harm the CECB. If you leave it frozen long enough
you could get phosphor burn on your TV. (LCDs are immune from
permanent burn-in, although they can get temporary burn-in.)

Thanks for clearing that up.


> I'm a bit concerned that some stations and cable companies are
> rather quick to ascribe problems to causes other than their own
> equipment

A properly engineered CECB would never crash, even if the station
were transmitting incorrect CC data. Poor reception could result
in garbage data being fed in. A properly engineered box must be
able to handle that.


I agree with you that the CECBs shouldn't crash. That's one reason I hadn't made a point yet of telling the stations that the CECBs were crashing on transmissions from their stations. (I guess I could mention it to them anyway but they have enough problems to investigate that I think are clearly within their area of responsibility.)

The quote from me above refers to other kinds of problems, like my HDTV (and other people's HD equipment) not receiving digital captions for some channels even though the HD equipment can receive digital captions for other channels.

(The newer chips in the CECBs sometimes seem better for picking up digital captions from some stations than the HD equipment does---but I'm thinking the captioning equipment from the station isn't fully compatible with HD equipment that was designed to work with digital captions after July 2002. However, there are still captioning problems from some stations even when using the CECBs; the local CW affiliate wasn't transmitting digital captions properly to either my CECB or HDTV last night. Using the CECB in addition to the HDTV does help isolate the problem further.)


> I could certainly use an explanation of what general CECB features
> are controlled by the ATSC chip as opposed to the tuner.

The RF tuner and 8VSB demodulator determine how well the box handles
poor reception conditions. The CPU and firmware would handle captions,
and be to blame for the "digital" fonts, and any crashes and freezes.
The video out would be to blame if the analog picture quality were
poor (for example fuzzy or unstable).

It might be possible to cure crashes/freezes with a firmware
upgrade.

When testing boxes for crashing, you could set them up, turn the
TV off, and leave the CECB on overnight. Next time you turn the
TV on, see if the picture is frozen.

Thanks for the explanation and additional pointers!

> my HDTV (and other people's HD equipment) not receiving digital
> captions for some channels even though the HD equipment can
> receive digital captions for other channels.

This might be a problem with what the station is transmitting,
or it might be a problem with the TV/CECB. Or it could be a
problem with the spec. Sometimes a specification isn't written
clearly enough, and different people interpret it differently,
resulting in incompatibility. I've read that there is a
spec interpretation problem with the audio.

LGDT1111, Auvitek AU8515, Broadcom BCM3543, TI TVP9007 and Zoran Supra741HD
SoC's include ATSC & MPEG2 Decoders plus ALL of the display functions.....fantastic.....

It *is* amazing how much is done by these relatively inexpensive boxes.

At any rate, it looks like we can hope for different captioning from each of the SoC chips above.



You would think the same version (e.g. "C" or "D" after LGDT1111)
would operate identically....but since they accept external Firmware loads, the same chip version could operate somewhat differently, depending on what they decided to change in the sofware.....

True, but unless some of the engineers involved with tweaking the firmware are monitoring this thread (which would be nice!), they're probably not going to do anything about the digital closed captioning features any time soon. Most reviewers don't comment specifically on the digital captions, so there isn't enough public attention about any problems that do exist with the digital caption features.

However, the fact that some of the boxes are crashing with the digital closed captioning being activated could be a good reason for them to overhaul how the digital closed caption features are implemented.

I'm not sure of the best way to go about addressing the crashes with these chips----would it be LG itself?

Dana

Dana, I've been following with interest your thread and posts about CECB digital Closed Captions and noticed that most boxes seem to have poor or no documentation of this feature. I have a Zenith DTT900 and have read the AVS posts of evaluations and comments on its digital CC support.

I decided, for contrast, to begin to explore digital CC support on my Samsung LED HL-T5689S RPTV (2007 model, 56" screen). The documentation and user setup interface seems much better than any CECB. I copy below the text copy/paste from my Sammy's PDF manual and also include, as an attachment at the bottom of this post, 3 screen captures from the PDF manual of the setup menus. Perhaps you or others will find this info useful for comparing and contrasting these CC features in this thread. Avio
==========================

Viewing Closed Captions (On-Screen Text Messages) - Digital

The Digital Captions function operates on digital channels.
1 Press the MENU button.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select Setup, then press the ENTER button.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select Caption, then press the ENTER button.

2 Press the ENTER button to select Caption.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select On, then press the ENTER button.

3 Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select Caption Mode, then press the ENTER button.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select submenu (Default, Service1~Service6, CC1~CC4,
or Text1~Text4) you want, then press the ENTER button.

4 Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select Digital Caption Options, then press the ENTER
button.
* Digital Caption Options are available only when Default and Service1~Service6
can be selected in Caption Mode.
* Service1~Service6 in digital caption mode may not be available depending on the
broadcast.

5 Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select the desired caption option, then press the ENTER
button. Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select the desired sub-menu options (see options
below), then press the ENTER button.

Press the EXIT button to exit.
* The availability of captions depends on the program being broadcast.
* Default means to follow the standard set by the broadcaster.
* Foreground and Background cannot be set to have the same color.
* Foreground Opacity and Background Opacity cannot be both set to Transparent.
w Size: This option consists of Default, Small, Standard, and Large.
w Font Style: This option consists of Default, Style0 ~ Style 7. You can change the
font you want.
w Foreground Color: This option consists of Default, White, Black, Red, Green,
Blue, Yellow, Magenta, and Cyan. You can change the color of the letter.
w Background Color: This option consists of Default, White, Black, Red, Green,
Blue, Yellow, Magenta, and Cyan. You can change the background color of the
caption.
w Foreground Opacity: This option consists of Default, Transparent, Translucent,
Solid, and Flashing. You can change the opacity of the letter.
w Background Opacity: This option consists of Default, Transparent, Translucent,
Solid, and Flashing. You can change the background opacity of the caption.
w Return to Default: This option sets each of Size, Font Style, Foreground Color,
Background color, Foreground Opacity, and Background Opacity to its
default.

Press the CAPTION button on the remote control to select On or Off.

Viewing Closed Captions (On-Screen Text Messages) - Analog

The Analog Caption function operates in either analog TV channel mode or external signal mode. (Depending on the
broadcasting signal, the Analog Caption function may operate on digital channels.)
1 Press the MENU button.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select Setup, then press the ENTER button.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select Caption, then press the ENTER button.

2 Press the ENTER button to select Caption, then press the ENTER button.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select On, then press the ENTER button.

3 Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select Caption Mode, then press the ENTER button.
Press the ▲ or ▼ button to select submenu (Default, CC1~CC4, or Text1~Text4) you
want, then press the ENTER button.
Press the EXIT button to exit.
w CC1: The Primary Synchronous Caption Service. These are captions in the
primary language that must be in sync with the sound, preferably matched to a
specific frame.
w CC2: The Special Non-Synchronous Use Captions.
This channel carries data that is intended to augment information carried in the
program.
w CC3: Secondary Synchronous Caption Service.
Alternate program-related caption data, typically second language captions.
w CC4: Special Non-Synchronous Use Captions. Similar to CC2.
w Text1: First Text Service. This may be various non-program related data.
w Text2: Second Text Service. Additional data, usually not program related.
w Text3/Text4: Third and Fourth Text Services.
These data channels should be used only if Text1 and Text2 are not sufficient.
* ● The default is the caption mode provided by broadcasters.
● The Caption feature doesn’t work in COMPONENT, PC, HDMI(DVI) modes.
● When the Caption is not available to view, change the setup value to CC1 and such.

Press the CAPTION button on the remote control to select On or Off.

... the fact that some of the boxes are crashing with the digital closed captioning being activated could be a good reason for them to overhaul how the digital closed caption features are implemented.

I'm not sure of the best way to go about addressing the crashes with these chips----would it be LG itself? Dana: I think it would be LG itself, perhaps using one of these two links:

http://www.lge.com/support/contact_us.jsp

http://www.lgservice.com/

Avio

Dana, I've been following with interest your thread and posts about CECB digital Closed Captions and noticed that most boxes seem to have poor or no documentation of this feature. I have a Zenith DTT900 and have read the AVS posts of evaluations and comments on its digital CC support.

I decided, for contrast, to begin to explore digital CC support on my Samsung LED HL-T5689S RPTV (2007 model, 56" screen). The documentation and user setup interface seems much better than any CECB. I copy below the text copy/paste from my Sammy's PDF manual and also include, as an attachment at the bottom of this post, 3 screen captures from the PDF manual of the setup menus. Perhaps you or others will find this info useful for comparing and contrasting these CC features in this thread. Avio

Thanks, Avio. It's interesting how much more helpful your HDTV manual is than my own HDTV's manual is.

It would be interesting to explore whether a manual that does a better job explaining CC features also tends to reflect the same level of care designing the closed caption features.

I would say the fact that most of the captions on my Sharp HDTV don't actually become large reflects a lack of adequate attention, for example, and the user manual reflects that same lack of attention. (However, I don't know whether technical writers tend to depend on documentation from the engineers or whether they do more research themselves. If they depend on documentation from the engineers, though, then engineers who haven't focused on doing a good job with the captioning probably will do a slipshod job with the documentation, too, whereas people proud of their work and aware of different issues would be more likely to spend more time documenting it. )

The user manual for the CASTicax CECB uses large pages and uses 2 1/2 of them for captioning. It even specifies that the large captions are 21 pixels, the standard ones are 15, and the small ones are 11.

It also says, "If Digital and Analog Caption are received simultaneously, you can only select DTV Captions, analog captions will not appear." Perhaps this CECB may be able to show analog captions if there are no digital captions being broadcast (which is something the LG chip doesn't do for the Zenith and Insignia CECBs).

A lot of the user manuals for other CECBs aren't available online yet, but of the ones that I've been able to read so far, the CASTicax CECB's user manual appears to provide the most information about captioning---and the specificity about the pixel size of the captions suggests the size of the captions will be more consistent.

(The user manuals I've been able to find online are linked to the corresponding CECB listed on the first posting of this thread.)

Dana: I think it would be LG itself, perhaps using one of these two links:

http://www.lge.com/support/contact_us.jsp

http://www.lgservice.com/

Avio

Thanks, Avio.

I contacted LG at their US web page early last week. Got an email saying they'd follow up, but haven't heard anything more.

The Zenith CECB has crashed a total of four times now, and has done so only during commercials.

The "tuner" is actually the tin-can RF module that "tunes" to the desired
frequency, amplifies the RF signal and filters out undesired frequencies.
These are still pretty much what has been used in TVs for decades now.


Just to make things confusing, the tin can can contain the NTSC and ATSC decoders, e.g. the Innotek H062F contains an LGDT3303 as well as the mixer-oscillator and an NTSC decoder.

You had thought the Broadcom processor for the RCA DTA800B might have trouble handling a different kind of background (either transparent or translucent).

Here's a link to some observations about the RCA DTA800B CECB:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13603770#post13603770

I've gotten emails from another person who tried out the captioning of the RCA DTA800B for about 30 minutes; he did not like the legibility of any of the caption fonts even though he made them all large.

It would be really helpful to see pictures of the best captioning arrangement that one can get on the different CECBs so that we can see for ourselves what the captioning looks like.

Dana

I agree with you that the CECBs shouldn't crash. That's one reason I hadn't made a point yet of telling the stations that the CECBs were crashing on transmissions from their stations.

My Zenith has been running continuously since I turned it on months ago.
I have had no problems whatsoever. It usually stay tuned to my station,
with a transport stream which I know is correct.

dingo99 wrote the following at another thread about the ChannelMaster CECB, but it's clearly relevant to the clarity of digital closed captioning from CECBs on analog TVs, so I'm asking questions of his comment here:

The main difference between S-video and composite is that you won't see any dot crawl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl) on S-video.

However, the extent of the dot crawl depends on the quality of the comb filter inside your TV. If you have a higher-end set with 3D comb filtering, you may see little difference between the composite and S-video.

"Do you have a DVD player or game system hooked up to your TV? Dot crawl artifacts (or the absence thereof) seem most visible with computer graphics displayed on a TV, so your DVD's setup menus or a video game would help show if your TV has a quality comb filter.

I don't know much about comb filtering, but I know that my 20" HDTV has a "3D Comb Filter", and since I use it to watch the output from my analog TiVo and the current CECB on it, I'm watching the CECB's digital closed captioning through the HDTV.

The available settings for the 3D Comb Filter are "Off, Low, Medium, High." The comb filtering would presumably affect the appearance of the digital closed captioning from the CECBs. What would be the trade-offs between choosing the different settings of the comb filtering?

I'm asking this question here on this thread because the majority of deaf and hard of hearing people won't understand how to use comb filtering either, and the lack of it or the settings for it will apparently affect how well the digital closed captions come across.

dmulvany, I know nothing of CC and would like to learn. Do you have a link that explains the different options (cc, text, service) and when they show up onscreen? I was playing with the custom color, but it's a mystery what makes them appear, sometimes muted and sometimes with sound.

My Zenith has been running continuously since I turned it on months ago.
I have had no problems whatsoever. It usually stay tuned to my station,
with a transport stream which I know is correct.

I've only noticed the crashing on channels that have problematic captioning of some kind and with commercials or some type of transition, so since you're running a tight ship with your station, that *may* be why you're not seeing any crashes. In all, I've had four crashes with the Zenith and five from the Insignia.

I picked up the DigitalStream DTX9900 yesterday, and very late at night, was treated to some visual abnormalities when it was showing an infomercial on the local MyNetworkTV affiliate, WDCA (which has the same station engineer for the local Fox affiliate, WTTG).

Fortunately, because of having the TiVo hooked up to view the output from the CECB, I was able to back up and look at what had happened.

The visual garbage came up from the bottom and initially showed some kind of residue from the menu for the digital closed captioning, even though that hadn't been touched for a few hours. It looked like there was something that had stayed in the CECB's memory that had eventually leaked out onto the screen:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/dana.mulvany/R_40KSUoYJI/AAAAAAAAAsA/HH3zRXP00HQ/SV400017-1.JPG?imgmax=512

Then there was just a lot of visual clutter, though it changed over time.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/dana.mulvany/R_4z_CUoYGI/AAAAAAAAAro/v46c_rYXG0M/SV400014.JPG?imgmax=512

http://lh6.ggpht.com/dana.mulvany/R_40PyUoYKI/AAAAAAAAAsI/AxQChuSxI4k/SV400018-1.JPG?imgmax=512

After taking lots of pictures, I changed the channel a few times and then went back to the infomercial. The problem had cleared up temporarily but came back on in a few minutes just for the same infomercial:


http://lh5.ggpht.com/dana.mulvany/R_40qiUoYSI/AAAAAAAAAtI/VxZLO5bk_yE/SV400026-1.JPG?imgmax=512

If this picture doesn't show up, it's at:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/dana.mulvany/R_40qiUoYSI/AAAAAAAAAtI/VxZLO5bk_yE/SV400026-1.JPG?imgmax=512


The problem didn't show up in the next half hour slot for a new infomercial, though. Throughout these problems, the sound was still on, and it was still responsive to commands from the remote control, so the CECB didn't completely "crash."

I'd never seen that kind of visual abnormality with the Zenith or Insignia.

I think all the CECBs I've tested so far are supposed to have the same chip from LG but the captioning and menu of the DigitalStream is very different from the captioning of the Zenith/Insignia, so I'm wondering if the captioning is handled outside of the LG chip.

Maybe I'm in a geographic area (the metropolitan Washington DC area) with quite a few stations with equipment that has some bugs with how captioning is transmitted. In order to see these problems, there may need to be a "perfect storm" of:

a) Digital closed captioning enabled
b) Problematic closed captioning (insufficient attention to captioning from different sources?)
c) Commercials (with problematic captioning of their own?)

More of the pictures, preceded by photos of the captioning, can be seen at:

http://picasaweb.google.com/dana.mulvany/DigitalStreamDTX9900

Dana

dmulvany, I know nothing of CC and would like to learn. Do you have a link that explains the different options (cc, text, service) and when they show up onscreen? I was playing with the custom color, but it's a mystery what makes them appear, sometimes muted and sometimes with sound.

Off the top of my head, I'm not aware of a good link to describe all of that, so I'll go ahead and explain this.

For practical purposes, you're going to want to select Service 1 or CS1 in order to get "advanced closed captioning features." None of the advanced closed captioning features will work if you don't select the right "service," which seems to refer to the language of the digital captions. Service 1 would refer to digital captions in English (if that's the primary language used by the station). (Presumably some stations in countries with multiple languages, like Canada, might offer digital captions in other languages and use other services, but that would be rare in the U.S., I think. I don't know if any U.S. English speaking stations are offering digital captions in Spanish; the Spanish-speaking stations seem to use Service1 to provide captions in Spanish.)

CS1 is an abbreviation used by some manufacturers for captions that use Service 1.

CC1 refers to basic analog closed captioning in regular English, using EIA-608 captions, but if you select that, you won't enjoy the advanced closed captioning options, which are only available for EIA-708 captions.

If you're switching to CC1, that would make the custom settings disappear, like the color. Analog captions are always black and white.

I never use the Text options and don't know much about them other than that they may offer additional information at times; they're not useful for captioning purposes, however.

Some TVs offer the option of turning on the captions when you mute the sound (which I think is useful). None of the CECBs I've tried offer that option, however, and I haven't heard of any other ones offering that option.

Some stations may provide unalterable captions for some programs. A local PBS affiliate in my area seems to provide only 608 captions for its SD subchannels even though all TV stations are supposed to provide both 608 and 708 captions. In the past, Comcast had provided fixed captioning, unalterable captioning for all of its HD programs. So sometimes, the captions won't be affected by the settings you've chosen for the digital captions but that won't be the fault of your equipment.

Feel free to ask away if you have more questions. I'm not sure if I've addressed all of them and if that's the case, please provide more details about what's happening and what equipment you're using.

Dana

Thanks!! I'll start with Service 1. I was getting confused by the delay between setting and the appearance of cc. I had switched to service 2 to see what that was, and there was nothing for a long while. Separated by many button pushes and multiple people controlling the remote, it was hard to make the association between any cc changes and the eventual result. I'm used to it going cc whenever I push mute. Thanks again!

Thanks!! I'll start with Service 1. I was getting confused by the delay between setting and the appearance of cc. I had switched to service 2 to see what that was, and there was nothing for a long while. Separated by many button pushes and multiple people controlling the remote, it was hard to make the association between any cc changes and the eventual result. I'm used to it going cc whenever I push mute. Thanks again!

You've learned your lesson, right? Don't let any other people use the remote control!! :D

I added a qualification above about Spanish-speaking stations using Service1 for Spanish captions. It seems like Service1 is used for the digital captions in the spoken language that is used by the station. I don't know if that's the way it's supposed to be used, but that's what I've seen for the Spanish-speaking stations.

By the way, some TVs seem very slow to let the captions show up, so there can be significant differences in how quickly they'll show up. If you change channels, that can also delay the appearance of the captions, and even changing the volume can also turn off the captions for a while. With the CECBs, though, what you do with the TV doesn't affect what's done by the CECB, so it's nice to be able to change the volume on the TV itself without the digital closed captions being affected. FWIW, my Magnavox TV has the ability to turn on analog captions very quickly when muted, so that's a really quick way of turning on analog captions when the digital closed captioning doesn't come through for some programs. (It's also a convenient way of comparing the different captions with each other.)

Dana

It makes sense that the first cc option defaults to the station's language. When I got Spanish last night, I assumed it was because I'd been messing with the SAP button. See, it isn't the other person using the remote that messes things up, I am doing that all by myself. The main remote feud is over zoom vs. letterbox.

I have seen some programs this morning broadcasting cc perfectly in sync, but others have a 5 second delay. For part of a program on NBC I could only get analog, and then it switched back to Service 1 -- on the same program! On PBS-1 service1 looked the same as on other channels, but on PBS-2, it was in italics. I had seen stuff like that last night and though I'd changed something inadvertently.

I turned off my tv's cc yesterday, but maybe I'll put it back on again. I can make that one come on when I mute.

The available settings for the 3D Comb Filter are "Off, Low, Medium, High." The comb filtering would presumably affect the appearance of the digital closed captioning from the CECBs. What would be the trade-offs between choosing the different settings of the comb filtering?
I'm not sure about different filter settings, as my HD-ready TV doesn't have options. But based my limited knowledge, I believe the tradeoff would be that an increase in the comb filtering setting results in more dot crawl reduction at the expense of picture resolution. No doubt there's great variation in the types and quality of filters in different TVs. What I can say from experience:

When viewing CECB captions via composite on my HD-ready TV, the tell-tale dot crawl appears for a split second but vanishes as the TV's 3D digital comb filter does its magic. This repeats each time a new caption appears, but the crawl is visible for only about 1/4 second, so it's not bothersome. Of course, when using S-video, the dot crawl never appears.

Contrast this with my LCD monitor, which does not have a good comb filter - when using composite, the dot crawl is constant and results in an annoying shimmer/flicker on the captions. Switch to S-video, and the shimmer is gone.

On both sets, the dot crawl is minimized by using white captions. Colored captions show the most shimmering.

For a detailed look into the subject of video comb filters, take a look at http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidcomb.htm

It makes sense that the first cc option defaults to the station's language. When I got Spanish last night, I assumed it was because I'd been messing with the SAP button. See, it isn't the other person using the remote that messes things up, I am doing that all by myself. The main remote feud is over zoom vs. letterbox.

Ah, I see. The SAP button might have had nothing to do with this; if you'd happen upon a Spanish-speaking station, you would have gotten Spanish captions.

I have seen some programs this morning broadcasting cc perfectly in sync, but others have a 5 second delay.

My local Fox station had delayed digital captions for a very long time and recently fixed that for most programs, but not all Fox stations may have fixed that problem. There are still some syndicated programs on the local Fox station that can have delayed captions (even though other stations handle captions for the same syndicated program perfectly). Such delays are due to problems outside of your TV.

For part of a program on NBC I could only get analog, and then it switched back to Service 1 -- on the same program!

That's unusual. Could be a problem with how the local NBC affiliate is broadcasting captions, or maybe there's a problem with your TV's decoding or something else.

On PBS-1 service1 looked the same as on other channels, but on PBS-2, it was in italics.

Italics can be used to indicate if someone is speaking off-camera, so if you were watching a narrated documentary, which is common on PBS, much of the captions might have been in italics on purpose.

If that wasn't the case, it would be unusual to have italics all the time.

It would be helpful to see if another device that can receive digital captions, like a CECB, shows the same captioning phenomenon. The problems could be due to transmissions from the stations or maybe there's something wrong with how your TV is decoding captions.

I've been finding it helpful to compare the output of the CECB with the output of an HDTV next to it. Problems that show up on both would be an indication of problems from the station, program or commercial.

Here's an informative article about frequent problems that broadcasters have with captioning:

"Captioning remains source of confusion in mixed NTSC, SD, HD world"

http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/captioning_remains_source_confusion_0408/

This article might explain some of the problems happening with captioning in the Washington, DC area and in other areas. For example, WETA (PBS affiliate) doesn't seem to be transmitting any digital captions at all on its SD channels, though it's required to do so; one has to manually switch to 608 decoding in order to see 608 captions. A lot of people have reported problems getting digital captions from PBS on pay TV services, and maybe it's because of equipment problems like those suggested in this article.

FWIW, I don't fully understand all the terminology, like this paragraph, so if anyone could explain it, that would be appreciated:

"What that means is they have a 708 vertical ancillary service that’s on the HD video, but they do not actually have a 708 service. They only actually have 608 downconversion compatibility bytes being carried along, but they don’t have a real 708 service."

Another problem implied by the article, but not explained (since it wasn't relevant to broadcasters), is that digital TVs that don't have 608 decoders WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DECODE 608 CAPTIONS FROM DVDs OR VCRs. Collections of closed captioned videocassettes and DVDS will become inaccessible to deaf and hard of hearing people if there are no 608 decoders available any longer. That means that deaf and hard of hearing people will *want* to hold onto their analog TVs that have built-in closed captioned decoders and think twice about getting DTVs that have no built-in NTSC tuner (with the requisite 608 decoder). It may also mean that they may want to make a point of buying TVs that have both kinds of tuners (and both kinds of decoders). But the FCC's July 31, 2000 DTV order made it clear that the FCC did not intend deaf and hard of hearing people to lose the ability to keep viewing closed captions; they wrote that there was no need to have closed captioning in external devices like DVD players because they thought TVs would continue decoding captions from external devices, and that manufacturers of these external devices would continue to transmit closed caption data to the TVs.

It's still not clear to me that digital TVs aren't supposed to be able to decode 608 captions----I've heard that they ARE supposed to---but certainly there's going to be problems if people start losing the ability to view captions on DVDs and videocassettes without having any idea about this beforehand.

Hmmm---is there any way for the converter boxes with analog pass-through to be able to decode the 608 captions from VCRs and DVD players?

Dana

I'm not sure about different filter settings, as my HD-ready TV doesn't have options. But based my limited knowledge, I believe the tradeoff would be that an increase in the comb filtering setting results in more dot crawl reduction at the expense of picture resolution. No doubt there's great variation in the types and quality of filters in different TVs. What I can say from experience:

When viewing CECB captions via composite on my HD-ready TV, the tell-tale dot crawl appears for a split second but vanishes as the TV's 3D digital comb filter does its magic. This repeats each time a new caption appears, but the crawl is visible for only about 1/4 second, so it's not bothersome. Of course, when using S-video, the dot crawl never appears.

Contrast this with my LCD monitor, which does not have a good comb filter - when using composite, the dot crawl is constant and results in an annoying shimmer/flicker on the captions. Switch to S-video, and the shimmer is gone.

On both sets, the dot crawl is minimized by using white captions. Colored captions show the most shimmering.

For a detailed look into the subject of video comb filters, take a look at http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidcomb.htm

Thanks for the tips and the link to the URL above. I'll have to try playing around with the 3D Comb filtering on my HDTV to see what impacts I notice on the digital closed captioning and picture resolution.

BTW, the captions from the DigitalStreams look more like the ChannelMaster's than the DCCs from the Zenith/Insignia. Have you checked out the photos I took of the DS's captions to see if the font styles look the same?

Dana

> Hmmm---is there any way for the converter boxes with analog
> pass-through to be able to decode the 608 captions from VCRs
> and DVD players?

Analog pass-through would presumably be implemented with a relay,
which simply routes the incoming signal around the processing
(RF tuner/8VSB demodulator/mpeg decoder/ntsc encoder) much like an
interstate highway bypass routes traffic around a city. In bypass
mode, the CECB would be the same as a piece of coax.

So no, I wouldn't expect the CECB to be able to decode 608 captions
in bypass mode. To have it do so, you'd want to have it do the ntsc
tuning instead of doing the bypass, which IIRC someone said was
prohibited. (One wonders why it would be prohibited.)

If you need analog bypass, you can do it with a pair of RF AB switches
outside the box, so you don't *have* to choose a box with analog bypass.
The pair of RF AB switches will be less convenient, but at least you can
do it. If I had to choose between, say, s-video and analog bypass, I'd
choose s-video since there is no way to eliminate the dot-crawl without
it.

I seen theories that the bypass will degrade the signal. If the
bypass degrades the signal significantly, someone messed up big time.

'09 digital shift to hit some cable viewers
By John Dunbar
The Associated Press
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 04.12.2008
For months, TV viewers have been told by government, by industry and by the media that if they already subscribe to cable, there's no need to worry about the coming transition to digital broadcasting.
So cable customer Doris Spurk was surprised to learn that thanks to the transition, she would have to rent a converter box for $5.95 per month, per television set, plus pay for a $60 service call to install it. With five televisions in her home, the conversion would increase her bill by 75 percent.
"It really ticks us off," the 63-year-old central Florida resident said. "If they are in the right and can do this — charge these prices — then the educational effort that the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) is doing is really misleading everybody."
Thus far, government and the broadcast industry have focused their consumer-education efforts regarding the transition on viewers of over-the-air TV programming. But information about how the transition will affect cable subscribers has been scant.
That's mainly because most major cable operators plan to keep sending analog signals along with digital programming after the deadline, at least for a while.
The congressionally mandated transition requires all full-power television stations to broadcast only in a digital format starting in mid-February.
Anyone with a non-digital television who uses an antenna will need a converter box. The government is giving out two $40 coupons per household to subsidize the cost of the boxes, and about 10 million coupons have been requested so far.
What hasn't been widely publicized is that the transition also will affect some cable subscribers.
There are about 65 million basic cable subscribers in the United States, according to the National Cable and Telecommunications Association.
About 37 million of them are digital subscribers, meaning they most likely have a set-top box. Those customers will not be affected by the broadcast transition, regardless of the age of their television.
But the 28 million customers who receive analog service — meaning they probably plug their cable wire straight into the back of their set and do not have a set-top box — may have reason to worry.
(Satellite customers, except in rare instances, aren't affected.)
Cable companies have two options for dealing with their analog customers when broadcasters turn off their non- digital signals.
They can either convert the digital broadcast signal to analog at the transmission source, referred to as the "head end"; or they can make their systems all-digital and supply customers with a set-top box that will convert the signal back to analog for viewing on older TVs.
The government-subsidized converter boxes, meant for use on televisions that get signals through an antenna, will be of no help in this situation.
Cable operators, including Cox Communications and Comcast Corp., both of which serve the Tucson area, are expected to take the first option and pump both digital and analog signals through their systems.
"There won't be changes in prices because the broadcast channels are going digital," said Comcast spokeswoman Sena Fitzmaurice. "But there may be changes in prices and services for other reasons."
Cox said it is committed to converting the broadcast digital channels for its analog customers for at least three years after the February deadline.
Cable companies may move some programming from the analog tier to digital, as they have been doing increasingly; but FCC rules require that local broadcast channels remain viewable to analog customers.
Over time, a complete migration from analog to digital service is inevitable.
An analog signal takes up more space on the network than a digital signal, and subscribers pay less for it. With digital, cable companies also are able to offer additional services, such as telephone and Internet.
Smaller cable systems are expected to have a more difficult time with the transition.
Jess King is president of Cablevision of Marion County LLC, which is about 40 miles south of Gainesville, Fla. King recently spoke to a gathering of residents of an "over-55" retirement community, including Spurk.
"My decision was, whether I continued to try to muddle along here with all my channel space being used up with a few analog channels or whether I would go all digital," King said. "So I got an FCC variance to go all digital."
King's company is small, he said, with fewer than 10,000 subscribers, and he is facing increasingly intense competition from satellite companies that offer large packages of high-definition channels — an option not available to him because of capacity limitations.

Dana,

I've kept my Zenith on cc for the last few days, and no crashes. There are times when a line sticks, and the last word on the line spins through garbage characters (ABC). That was primetime. They were also getting backed up on cc text, and then would display 6-8 lines as single lines, moved up to mid-screen, flashing by at less than a second per line. I saw no problems on MyNetwork, locally that station broadcasts 100% HD, in case there's an SD connection to glitches.

'09 digital shift to hit some cable viewers
By John Dunbar
The Associated Press
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 04.12.2008
For months, TV viewers have been told by government, by industry and by the media that if they already subscribe to cable, there's no need to worry about the coming transition to digital broadcasting.
So cable customer Doris Spurk was surprised to learn that thanks to the transition, she would have to rent a converter box for $5.95 per month, per television set, plus pay for a $60 service call to install it. With five televisions in her home, the conversion would increase her bill by 75 percent.
"It really ticks us off," the 63-year-old central Florida resident said. "If they are in the right and can do this — charge these prices — then the educational effort that the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) is doing is really misleading everybody."


Warning: Cable customers who use captioning and who convert to digital, either voluntarily or involuntarily, may also find that many of the digital channels have problems providing captions well, whereas there were no problems with the captions on the analog channels. (One person has told me of problems getting captions on nearly 50% of the channels he received through his cable company.)

Thus the digital transition can initially have a much worse effect on consumers with hearing loss than on the general population---because the FCC is not required by law to be proactive about making sure that digital captioning is working and the only enforcement is complaint-based. Cable companies apparently don't routinely check to make sure all the captioning is working over the digital channels.

Pay TV customers who find that they're get poor captioning over numerous digital channels will have good reason to explore what kinds of digital channels they can get using a converter box as soon as possible, or consider switching to another pay TV service provider with a better record of providing captioning for the digital channels. (They can also complain to their cable companies about every instance of bad captioning they're getting on all the channels, but they're supposed to be specific about the date, time and program that they get bad captions on, and then follow up with the FCC within 30 days of the response from the cable company if the response is not satisfactory.)

Personally, I think that groups of local cable customers who need captioning ought to set up meetings with the local cable company to tell them that they need to fix these caption problems asap, or they will lose a lot of customers. (The FCC process is too slow and burdensome.) Local governments also have an office that oversees the contract with the local cable company and should be contacted as well if there are a lot of problems with the captions.

Remember that this thread is supposed to focus on converter boxes for users of captioning, so there should be a connection made between a posting and the focus of the thread.

In the first round of coupons for converter boxes, cable TV and satellite TV customers are eligible to apply for the $40 coupons. After the first round is exhausted, only households that have no pay TV service will be eligible to apply for coupons. I highly recommend that deaf and hard of hearing people who have pay TV services apply for the $40 coupons before the first round is over so that they will be able to receive over-the-air broadcasts if there are problems getting captions through their pay TV service. If there is an outage of their pay TV service due to a storm or disaster, they will especially need the converter boxes to get captioned emergency news (since people with severe hearing loss can't understand radio communication, while people with normal hearing can). Unfortunately, the PSAs about digital TV are telling pay TV service customers they won't need to get a converter box without any consideration of the important role that OTA broadcast TV plays when there are outages of pay TV services, and without any consideration of how much deaf and hard of hearing people need to have access to TV since they can't use radio.

(For example, Hurricane Wilma uprooted trees in parts of Florida that knocked out cable TV services for three weeks, and deaf and hard of hearing people needed access to TV to find out about emergency resources after the hurricane.)

Dana,

I've kept my Zenith on cc for the last few days, and no crashes. There are times when a line sticks, and the last word on the line spins through garbage characters (ABC). That was primetime. They were also getting backed up on cc text, and then would display 6-8 lines as single lines, moved up to mid-screen, flashing by at less than a second per line.

I don't think I saw that specific kind of problem with either the Zenith or the Insignia. Something about your local ABC station's transmission was causing that problem, I think.

Sometimes some captions do go by too quickly, though. Yesterday, I recorded an afternoon movie from the local ABC affiliate from the DigitalStream DTX9900 CECB through my TiVo; the analog captions were abnormal, barely showing up on the screen if at all, while the digital ones were fine. It was a good thing I had turned on the digital captions as I wouldn't have been able to watch the movie otherwise. I imagine that's a problem with the TV station's captioning rather than the CECB.


I saw no problems on MyNetwork, locally that station broadcasts 100% HD, in case there's an SD connection to glitches.

Maybe. The local MyNetworkTV digital channel hadn't been HD at the time of the problems I saw.

Thanks for your feedback.

Dana

I copy below a post from the Channel Master CM-7000 Digital to Analog Converter thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13658742#post13658742) because it seems to be relevant to the topics in this thread:

Regarding the data seen at the top of the picture on SD programming of broadcast channels, before retirement I was part of the engineering staff of a major cable company. I spent some amount of time researching this issue.

Video line 21 is the last line of the Vertical Blanking Interval (VBI), normally this line is out of sight and Closed Captioning (CC) data is inserted on this line. Line 22 is the first line of active video, what is not commonly known is that the FCC (1) gave Nielsen rating service permission to place data on line 22. The data is a function of Nielsen's Automated Measurement of Lineup (AMOL). Google Nielsen AMOL to see more info.

Older picture tube TVs overscanned the picture, so the data on line 22 was not a problem. Today's plasma and LCD displays don't need to overscan, so under the right circumstances will display the data.

Only some of the local broadcasters had the problem, so I worked with their engineers to see if it could be eliminated. Talking with an engineer of a station that did not have a problem I learned that their local MPEG encoder could be adjusted to eliminate the problem. So I carried that information to one of the stations that had the problem and learn that they had an older encoder that didn't have that feature. Then I sugested that they rewire the video so that the Nielsen data wasn't inserted on the digital feed, only the on the analog signal. They did so, but it only half helped as the network inserts data on one field and the station inserts on the other field.

I also saw CC data on some of the offending stations.

So I finally threw up my hands and moved on to other pressing problems.

My thoughts are that there is a mix of problems here, TV sets are being designed to a standard that the FCC allowed to be bastardized and TV stations are not paying attention to addressing the problem at their end.

After February of next year analog AMOL will be useless in the digital domain, but programming may still have it embedded and it may still be an annoyance.

(1) http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Notices/fcc95155.html

Mallego

Avio

I've changed the capture window (moved it up 12 lines) on an MPEG-2 encoder to show what the analog (EIA-608) closed caption waveform looks like.

This picture shows a pair of NULL characters (these are sent when there's no text).

http://www.w6rz.net/analogcc2.png

This picture show the two characters 0xe5 and 0xf2 (the letters 'e' and 'r').

http://www.w6rz.net/analogcc17.png

To make the closed caption waveform easier to see, I removed the IEC61880 (also known as CGMS-A and WSS) waveform. Here's the previous pictures with the IEC61880 waveform (on line 20 in both fields).

http://www.w6rz.net/analogcc1.png

http://www.w6rz.net/analogcc16.png

You can download a short MPEG-2 clip that shows the closed captioning waveform in action here:

http://www.w6rz.net/analogcc.mpv

It can be played with VLC.

http://www.videolan.org

Ron

As many people know, significant percentages of elderly people, most of whom are female, end up with hearing loss, and many do not have computers or Internet access.

The following quote is from an article about a recent briefing session with Meredith Baker, Acting NTIA Assistant Secretary and Administrator, and her staff:

http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=blog&blog_id=400000040&blog_post_id=1710024971

"And once more on converter boxes...another audience member pointed out that whereas all coupon-compatible converter boxes had achieved 24 different quality characteristics as documented by the NTIA and tested by the FCC, their differing secondary feature sets might exclude certain audience populations (a lack of closed captioning support, for example, being unacceptable for deaf and, more generally, older hard-of-hearing viewers). This feature set non-uniformity is particularly problematic because the coupons are one-time-use; if a product is subsequently returned, the $40 goes back to the U.S. Treasury. Ms. Baker's response encouraged consumers to do comprehensive research prior to purchase in order to minimize such problems (another audience member recommended the CECB, i.e. Coupon-Eligible Converter Box, comparison list (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units) at Wikipedia, which I agree is quite impressive!). She also suggested, although of course she could not definitively promise, that retailers would likely do whatever they could to please the customer, i.e. that retailer-supported unit exchanges would probably be common."

Note that the NTIA itself could and should be providing this information about which CECBs decode digital captions when coupons are sent out. They're providing information about analog pass-through to everyone; why can't they do the same for other optional features when they're important for access? Why is it assumed that deaf, hard of hearing and blind people throughout the entire USA, including rural areas, are more able to do "comprehensive research" on CECBs than people who need analog pass-through on their CECBs?

So far, all the CECBs that are sold in the brick and mortar stores appear to support digital closed captioning, but there are significant differences in the appearance of the closed captions, and there may be only one CECB sold by a particular store.

Is it reasonable to expect every single deaf and hard of hearing person to "do comprehensive research" when the NTIA itself could be gathering and communicating some basic information? I don't think so.

The lack of information about accessibility features is also a huge problem for blind and low-vision users who won't be able to access descriptive video services if there is no button on the remote for secondary audio programs, and if there is no manual provided online. (So far, I haven't heard of an online manual for the RCA CECB.)

I believe that the wave of babyboomers, I'm on the leading edge, that listened to way to much music at way to high volume in the past will cause a change in the priority for CC. Just when that begins to show is the question. Maybe for my children who will have a bigger problem for the same reason.:(

Yes, like many other things I tried to warn them.

So far, I haven't heard of an online manual for the RCA CECB.I have also not seen a User Manual for the RCA.
Does the RCA have Channel Information/Program Information I have seen no picture.

There is also not a User Manual online for the Digital Stream
That is until Tarwater (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13606894#post13606894) made it available by scanning it into a PDF User Manual (http://www.mediafire.com/?4d0olvrj3lt).

Maybe someone who has access to a scanner and the RCA User Manual can do the same.

Dana do you have plans to rank the CECB's for captioning?

Malouf, in terms of ranking the different CECBs, I think it's tough to do that for a number of reasons. There are different variables that will be more important to some people than to others, including features unrelated to captioning. Technically, it would also be better to compare multiple CECBs using the same TV. What looks good on my TV may look horrible on very old TVs that have no comb filtering. I do think that if people can provide objective information, that could be summarized on a chart for the different criteria (like how large the captions can get), but some people haven't attempted to quantify how large the captions can get.

It would be tougher to rank how crisp and clear the best fonts are of the different CECBs, and if I've never seen a picture of them, I couldn't rank them in a consistent manner.

For now, people can find evaluations of captioning by going to the first posting on this thread. I've provided links to the more complete evaluations.

In terms of the user manuals, scanned pages would be better than nothing at all for the rest of us who have normal sight but I feel badly for the thousands of blind and low vision people whose screenreading software can't decipher scanned pages. (The scanned text becomes part of the image and can't be read by the screenreading software that blind people use.) Manufacturers involved in a federally subsidized program like this should have been required to make their user manuals available online in an accessible format so that blind and low vision people and other people can research the features of the converter boxes ahead of time to determine whether the devices will be accessible to them. Most manufacturers provide their user manuals online anyway, so they all should be doing this. I'm hoping that if more people ask the manufacturers to make the user manual online (and with text that is accessible to blind people), that the manufacturers will do so.

I don't own a digcam, so cannot provide photos.

1. The availability of digital closed captioning features, including enhanced ones such as changing the alignment of the captions, and the number of colors available.

There's a plethora of features; regrettably, however, caption alignment is not one of them. It is sorely needed as the alignment on this box is awful. The captions are not spread out along the width of the bottom of the screen. They emanate instead from the lower left quadrant of the screen and are skewered in short, uneven lines; i.e., one line may be 2 words, the next 6 words, then 1 word, then back to 4 words, etc. There are never more than 6 words to a line. Also, the CC often migrates to the upper left quadrant. In either location, the CC reaches the middle of the screen which, of course, obscures the TV picture.

The CC features are:

Font Options:
1. typeface - 8 options
2. font size - 4 options
3. font style - 3 options
4. font color - 9 colors
5. font effects - 5 options

Background Options:
1. Edge color - 9 options
2. Edge type - 6 options
3. Background color - 9 colors
4. Background effects - 5 options

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control

The remote is one of the best features of this unit. See #10 below for further details. There is a CC button clearly marked. However, I spent an inordinate amount of time figuring out how to turn the CC on since it's not explained in the manual. I was totally frustrated and felt like an idiot when I finally did figure it out. When you press the button, the message "CC is off" appears. I thought, that by pressing the button once, it would turn the CC on, but it didn't. Then I thought maybe it got turned on from the main menu/CC section, but that didn't do it, either. After fiddling around forever, I finally stumbled upon how it works: you have to press the CC button more than once. The first button press is "CC off", the next button press is "CC Service 1 English", which turns on the CC. There are 6 Services in all, but I don't know what they are for since they are not explained in the manual and nothing happens when I select the services and wait for a more than reasonable amount of time for something to happen.

Nonetheless, I prefer the RCA box CC to my Sony Trinitron WEGA CC because with the RCA I can get CC with only one button press, albeit I still have to cycle through 6 presses to turn it off. With my TV, I also have 6 cycle-throughs, but I have to press several buttons/direction keys to turn the CC on.

3. The usability of the menu activated by the CC button and what the choices are

The CC menu is not activated by the CC button; it is located in the main menu. The choices are listed in #1 above.

4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font provided for those analog captions (if present)

The box does not pick up CC on the multicasts. It picks up all main stations, but not the multicasts. My analog TV's CC *does* pick up the multicasts' CC - all channels.

5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions, particularly the default font

All of the fonts are flawed. The typeface is not clean; the edges are very jagged. The serif or cursive fonts have to be avoided all together because of this jaggedness. While the text *is* thinner than my TV's analog CC, it's not too thin for me to read from 12 feet away. However, because the digital typeface is not clean, the letters appear to be even thinner than they actually are. Having said that, I became accustomed to the typeface within an hour or so and still prefer it to my TV's because of the fast and easy accessibility. I would not want to watch the digital CC for any extended period of time, however.

6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for the digital captions, and how well this predicts the largest font style.

There is no preview, which is very annoying. One has to cycle through 5 levels to make caption adjustments, then cycle back out those 5 levels to review the adjustments.

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision viewers or for being able to watch the TV from a significant distance): do the longest lines of the largest captions fill the entire width of the screen, and if not, please describe how much of the screen is filled by the largest captions.

Large is not very large; there is a negligible difference in size among either small, default or large. That is to say, the large font is not small, but the ratio of difference between the fonts is negligible. I sit about 12 feet away from my TV and I have no trouble reading the CC without my glasses but, of course, that would be relative to an individual's eyesight.

The size of the font does not affect how much screen space is used. Probably because it's not very large.

8. How usable the optional translucent background is in providing sufficient contrast to the characters used in the captioning (if it is too transparent, it will be difficult to read the captions)

The translucent background is unusable, no matter what color font or background is selected. It is as you said: too transparent, rendering the CC illegible.

9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect analog captions automatically if there are no digital captions, jerky movements of captions, cut-off captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.

The box does not pick up CC on the multicasts. It picks up all main stations, including PBS, but not the multicasts of any channel. My analog TV's CC *does* pick up the multicasts' CC - all channels.

In addition, occasionally the CC text looks "chewed up". I can't think of another way to describe it other than it looks like portions of the text are chewed up to such an extent that some letters are barely legible, and sometimes, not. There is no pattern to the bug, though. It is not station-specific; it occurs on any station; it is intermittent; it doesn't necessarily occur after the CC has been on a while, it occurs immediately upon the CC being turned on. I don't know if it's signal-related or font-related as I haven't tested either, or whether it's the fault of the box.

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button to switch to a second audio channel (for descriptive video services), a raised dot on the 5 button, raised dots on the Power button or other buttons (useful for low vision or blind users), or other accessibility issues.

The remote is terrific, even for those who don't need aids. The buttons and other controls are very large. The CC button is clearly marked. There are raised dots on #5 and the power button for the box (the power button to the TV is directly opposite the raised dot power box button). The directional arrows and the volume and channel changers have thick ingrained (embossed?) arrows indicating direction. The buttons controlling the TV are on the left side of the remote and are colored grey; those buttons controlling the box are on the right and colored white.

SAP is handled through the main menu; there is no button on the remote.

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings; please indicate whether it advises choosing Service 1 or explains how to choose it. If you have found the user manual online, please provide the URL if it is not already provided in the first posting.

The manual does not explain anything about settings or services. As mentioned above, I have no idea what the 5 remaining CC services are.

12. Whether the CECB has crashed or otherwise malfunctioned, and what the circumstances were; this question is best answered after extensive use of digital closed captioning with different channels. Please indicate how many hours or days you've been testing the CECB with digital closed captioning turned on.

I've been using the box for 8 days, 16hrs/day, with CC on c. 33% of the time. So far I've had no problems at all, except for the "chewed text" as described above. Despite the substantially inferior quality of the box's CC as compared to my analog TV's CC, I nonetheless prefer to use the box's CC because of the one-touch easy access; even the 6-level/one button CC turn off is preferrable to the TV's 6-level, multi-button CC access.

Having said the foregoing, I am still very much pleased with the box, particularly after reading some avf reviews on other boxes. This was my first time setting up and using a converter and I found the manual's directions to be excellent and set-up was a breeze. The remote is terrific, the picture is excellent. I've had no problems so far. The CC has major drawbacks, but none that deter me from using it as first choice CC, mainly, as I mentioned, because of the quick and easy access. I also don't keep the CC on consistently; I turn it on and off, which is a factor in my tolerance of same.

Hope this helps.

Bonnie

Addendum: 24 hours after I posted this and 9 days after the RCA installation, my TV crashed. CC wasn't on when it crashed and was used only 33% of those 9 days. I was walking in another room which sometimes causes interference to the signal, I heard the signal breaking up and when I returned to the living room, the picture was gone. The sound was still working, the remote was still working, although I couldn't get the menu up because there was no picture. Both the DVD and VCR work, so it's not my TV. Turning the TV on and off did not help.

p.s. - Actually, a reboot of *both* the TV and the box did bring the picture back. It seems that if there's a lot of signal interference (and there was probably a lot of pixelating going on while I was away from the screen), the reception crashes.

I also forgot to mention in my initial post that the sound volume is very low. I began to investigate if there was a correlation with signal strength, but didn't finish. CBS comes in at a good volume, but all the rest of the channels are much lower. I'm constantly adjusting volume. The volume is so low, in fact, that when I play DVDs at the same TV volume, I have to lower the sound!! And you know how much lower DVD sound is.

Thanks very much, Bonnie (Clio22), for your comprehensive evaluation of the RCA DTA800B.

Could you check whether the RCA can decode analog captions, perhaps by switching to CC1? (That was what question 4 meant to ask.) If you have a choice on the CECB of CS1 or CC1, CS1 would give you the digital captions, using Service 1 (the primary language that the station is broadcasting), and CC1 would be the analog captions. It's possible that the RCA doesn't give you the option of decoding analog (608) captions, however, but if it does, it would be interesting to know what you think of the quality of the font that is used for the analog captions. (If you have the CC1 option through the CECB, you could also try switching to CC1 if you don't see any digital captions being broadcast on the additional digital channels.)

The CC button MIGHT let you switch to CC1 but for now, it sounds like you're saying it only lets you choose among the 6 services, which is not very useful for most of us since the only service that seems to be used, and which most of will use, is Service 1.

It's also possible the placement of the CECB's analog captions might be handled differently than the digital captions, and might be preferable for you.

Question 3 is actually asking you to describe what happens when you push the CC button, or what the menu for the CC button itself is. It's not asking if the menu to change the setting for the captions comes up. (Most CC buttons don't seem to be doing that; they're only offering very simple choices. See the other evaluations for examples of what the other CC buttons do; links to them are in the first posting of this thread).

Interesting that the sound level is very low. Note that there could be two different devices affecting the volume level: the CECB and the TV.

I doubt you would need to turn off the TV if the CECB crashes again; you'd only need to reboot the CECB.

The RCA box seems undesirable for people who need descriptive audio services since there's no secondary audio button on the remote, and it sounds like the advanced closed captions look worse than what's available from the Zenith/Insignia and Philco CECBs.

Thanks again, Bonnie!

Dana

I really like the captioning on my Zenith DTT900. One can choose the background opacity, background color, text filled color, text edge color, font styles, and font size. I had the CC on since day 1 although I rarely watch TV over 2 hours a day. I have not experienced any problem at all.

This thread only discusses closed-captioning problems standard-def DTV CECBs, not HDTV devices. Please transfer this thread to the new CECB subforum. Thanks.

I hope that the URL to this thread won't be changed if this thread is transferred to the new CECB subforum. The sticky created at that subforum refers to this thread, so at least people can find this thread at its current URL that way.

I really like the captioning on my Zenith DTT900. One can choose the background opacity, background color, text filled color, text edge color, font styles, and font size. I had the CC on since day 1 although I rarely watch TV over 2 hours a day. I have not experienced any problem at all.

Billcsho, what month was this CECB produced and what geographical area are you in? How long have you had your Zenith?

I found that the Zenith crashed only on some channels with problem captioning, so if all the channels in your area are captioning properly, then that would be one reason why you wouldn't see any crashes. (Another reason would be if LG had fixed whatever caused the CECB to crashed, which I think is unlikely this early in the year.)

I never did hear back from a live person at LG after sending them an email that I had experienced multiple crashes with both the Insignia and Zenith CECBs and even had pictures of them. So I doubt they've addressed this problem.

Dana

Billcsho, what month was this CECB produced and what geographical area are you in? How long have you had your Zenith?


Mine is from the March 2008 batch. I got it around 3 weeks ago at Circuit City in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I rarely watch OTA program more than an hour. That may be the reason that I never experienced a crash even I keep the CC on all the time.

As many people know, significant percentages of elderly people, most of whom are female, end up with hearing loss, and many do not have computers or Internet access.

The following quote is from an article about a recent briefing session with Meredith Baker, Acting NTIA Assistant Secretary and Administrator, and her staff:

http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=blog&blog_id=400000040&blog_post_id=1710024971


Hmmm, that article says "if a product is subsequently returned, the $40 goes back to the U.S. Treasury." That's the first I'd heard of that. I wonder if it is true? I assumed that after the vendor processed a coupon, they'd keep the $40. If I don't have my used coupon for them to swipe a second time since they kept it, how will the government know that I've returned the unit for a refund (of my out of pocket cost)?

I'd be curious to know how the loop is closed and the NTIA gets credited back the $40 after a return for refund. Or the author of the article might just have gotten it wrong. Nah, everything published in the media is fact checked, so it must be right :rolleyes:

Hmmm, that article says "if a product is subsequently returned, the $40 goes back to the U.S. Treasury." That's the first I'd heard of that. I wonder if it is true? I assumed that after the vendor processed a coupon, they'd keep the $40. If I don't have my used coupon for them to swipe a second time since they kept it, how will the government know that I've returned the unit for a refund (of my out of pocket cost)?

I'd be curious to know how the loop is closed and the NTIA gets credited back the $40 after a return for refund. Or the author of the article might just have gotten it wrong. Nah, everything published in the media is fact checked, so it must be right :rolleyes:

If you return a cecb to the store they give you back the value that was from the coupon as store credit only for another cecb.

If you return a cecb to the store they give you back the value that was from the coupon as store credit only for another cecb.

I thought I had read that before but looked now because of another thread and can't find where it was.

Did find where the store should let you exchange for another cecb using your purchase, including coupon value, in the exchange.

Also found where you should keep record of coupon number in case of return or exchange.

dmulvany - Here is a Video showing Captioning on the Zenith CECB (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORS0tC8JFw)

A friend of ours bought the RCA 800B for our hearing loss organization (ALOHA) at Wal*Mart. He told us the cashier swiped the coupon, handed it back and told him if he returned the unit for a refund, they'd swipe the coupon again to cancel the original use of it. To buy another unit, he'd need to again present the coupon. He was not told that he had to buy another unit at this particular store, although later on the plan had been, since we weren't real happy with the 800B captions, to buy a Magnavox which this store did not carry. From what we gathered from this transaction, is that it's (perhaps) possible to use the coupon more than once providing the store does a cancellation as described above.
Lou

dmulvany - Here is a Video showing Captioning on the Zenith CECB (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORS0tC8JFw)

Thanks, Malouff. Although I had trouble seeing the video, I'll add that to the page describing the Insignia/Zenith. Objective information like that is certainly useful.

A friend of ours bought the RCA 800B for our hearing loss organization (ALOHA) at Wal*Mart. He told us the cashier swiped the coupon, handed it back and told him if he returned the unit for a refund, they'd swipe the coupon again to cancel the original use of it. To buy another unit, he'd need to again present the coupon. He was not told that he had to buy another unit at this particular store, although later on the plan had been, since we weren't real happy with the 800B captions, to buy a Magnavox which this store did not carry. From what we gathered from this transaction, is that it's (perhaps) possible to use the coupon more than once providing the store does a cancellation as described above.
Lou

Thanks for this detailed explanation, Lou. The NTIA itself has not been clear about this. It's possible the coupon isn't supposed to be rebated past a thirty-minute window after the first use of the coupon, but frankly, I think it should be, especially since there's no way to see the captions until one has bought the CECB, brought it home and turned it on. (An example of another problem: Some people are also experiencing a very annoying high-pitched audio problems from the Zenith/Insignia CECBs, though I myself could never hear that.)

Dana

A friend of ours bought the RCA 800B for our hearing loss organization (ALOHA) at Wal*Mart. He told us the cashier swiped the coupon, handed it back and told him if he returned the unit for a refund, they'd swipe the coupon again to cancel the original use of it. To buy another unit, he'd need to again present the coupon. He was not told that he had to buy another unit at this particular store, although later on the plan had been, since we weren't real happy with the 800B captions, to buy a Magnavox which this store did not carry. From what we gathered from this transaction, is that it's (perhaps) possible to use the coupon more than once providing the store does a cancellation as described above.
Lou
Attn: loutouchette,

The coupons for the Digtial Converter Boxes can only be used once. And only once. That Wal-Mart clerk was probably telling you what he/she thought he/she might have to do if you exchanged the unit.

If you want to exchange your RCA DTA 800B for another unit, you present your receipt and make the exchange just like making any other exchange. Because a coupon was involved with the original sale, the clerk may have to ask the supervisor if he/she don't know how to make the exchange.

I don't know how long or how much you fooled around with the captions on the RCA DTA800B, but you can make those captions appear in many types. You can change the fonts, sizes, shapes, background colors, white on black, black on yellow, etc...

See other posts on this forum about the RCA DTA800B Digital Converter Box. Stay away from the Magnavox converter box.

When I got mine CECB, the store kept the coupon card. Interestingly, it works like a prepaid VISA card according to my receipt.

dmulvany - Here is a Video showing Captioning on the Zenith CECB (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORS0tC8JFw)

The video did not show the background opacity option. I really hate to see CC on solid background that blocks the image. The Zenith box gives you the option to set the opacity of background. When you are using a transparent background, you may choose a contrasting text edge color to make it more readable.

Here's a question for engineers at TV stations and pay TV companies: Is there a central online resource for troubleshooting digital caption problems? If yes, what is it? If no, I'm wondering about setting up a technically-based thread at the AVS Forum to collect information about technical glitches that engineers need to be aware of that can cause digital caption problems.

For example, I've found that the digital-to-analog converter boxes are doing a better job of showing digital captions on some channels than some digital TVs are, even though the same digital TVs are displaying digital captions fine for live programs and regular programming on certain channels. This suggests that some of the TV stations are sending out digital captions in a way that isn't compatible with existing digital TVs, and that there is something wrong with the caption encoder equipment that is being used. However, some engineers seem to assume that the end-user has faulty or obsolete equipment and that there is nothing that the engineer can do to fix the problems, which leaves the problems unresolved.

There are also problems with digital captions sometimes disappearing and bunching up (this is happening on the PBS HD channel for Masterpiece Theater lately), and especially for syndicated programs, digital captions being very delayed, intermittent, or completely absent. (The commercials may be captioned just fine, but the captioning for the syndicated program can be unusable.)

I thus think there are a lot of different technical causes of captioning problems, but as far as I can tell, engineers are on their own to try to figure out what's causing them instead of being able to refer to a central online resource to find out if other people have figured them out already. Consumers are completely in the dark since they don't know the names of the equipment that's being used.

It greatly concerns me that I'm in the Washington DC area, where the FCC is based, but there are still multiple problems with digital captioning here. (I can't watch any ABC programs in HD from WJLA.) There's a great need to be more strategic and intelligent in using our collective knowledge and experience to solve these captioning problems before February 17, 2009, when we can no longer cheat by turning to the perfectly working analog captions currently provide on analog channels.

Dana

Groups: Converter Boxes Will Become Obsolete
American Association of People with Disabilities, Consumer Federation of America, Others Write Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin

By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 5/15/2008 11:54:00 AM

The American Association of People with Disabilities, the Consumer Federation of America and several other groups asked the Federal Communications Commission to open an inquiry into what they said is a problem with digital TVs and converter boxes. ...

... "automatic update capability could also benefit people with disabilities," they said. "For example, it would enable rapid dissemination of new innovations and enhancements to existing technologies for captioning and video description," they wrote Martin.

The groups suggested that the FCC could address the problem by requiring such functionality as part of a certification process or labeling of the equipment ...

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6561295.html?industryid=48696

Avio

> It greatly concerns me that I'm in the Washington DC area,
> where the FCC is based, but there are still multiple problems
> with digital captioning here.

I nominate Dana Mulvany for FCC chair.

> There's a great need to be more strategic and intelligent in
> using our collective knowledge and experience to solve these
> captioning problems before February 17, 2009, when we can no
> longer cheat by turning to the perfectly working analog
> captions currently provide on analog channels.

2009-2-17 is going to be a train wreck. The whole ATSC/8VSB
thing is a disaster, the captions are just one small part of it.

> This suggests that some of the TV stations are sending out
> digital captions in a way that isn't compatible with existing
> digital TVs, and that there is something wrong with the
> caption encoder equipment that is being used. However, some
> engineers seem to assume that the end-user has faulty or
> obsolete equipment and that there is nothing that the engineer
> can do to fix the problems, which leaves the problems unresolved.

Many TV stations don't care about the technical quality of their
broadcasts. The engineering dept doesn't get the budget
necessary for personnel or equipment. So they may not be able to
devote the resources needed to track down and fix such problems.
Without the proper engineering analysis, it is impossible to say
if this sort of problem is the station's fault, or the fault of
the user's TV or CECB, or perhaps the spec wasn't written
properly and two valid interpretations created incompatible
equipment.

ATSC/8VSB is still very immature, and not ready for prime time.
Less than a year away from analog cutoff and it is still impossible
to get reliable reception, much less reliable captions.

Groups: Converter Boxes Will Become Obsolete
American Association of People with Disabilities, Consumer Federation of America, Others Write Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin

By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 5/15/2008 11:54:00 AM

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6561295.html?industryid=48696

Avio

Thanks, Avio. It's clear that a lot of the converter boxes *would* benefit from the ability to update the software for the captioning features. If there were software updates available, the design of the remote control and the physical aspects of the box would become relatively more important since they're static.

Dana

Apparently UpdateLogic (http://www.updatelogic.com) is the company providing this automatic update service (via datacast on PBS stations). Their press releases (http://www.updatelogic.com/news.html) and the letter to the FCC (http://www.trac.org/on-trac-for-2009/articles/letter-to-the-fcc.html) suggest that Sony is the only manufacturer signed up for the service, though several others have licensed the SDK.

UpdateLogic is offering the service at a discount for CECB manufacturers, but even so, I doubt CECB makers will sign up unless they have significant incentive to do so.

I nominate Dana Mulvany for FCC chair.

LOL!


Many TV stations don't care about the technical quality of their broadcasts. The engineering dept doesn't get the budget necessary for personnel or equipment. So they may not be able to devote the resources needed to track down and fix such problems. Without the proper engineering analysis, it is impossible to say if this sort of problem is the station's fault, or the fault of the user's TV or CECB, or perhaps the spec wasn't written properly and two valid interpretations created incompatible equipment.

I'm not aware of ANYONE actually checking out whether two valid interpretations of the specifications could create incompatible equipment. As far as I can tell, the FCC doesn't make it easy to find out how any captioning complaints have been investigated, so the public isn't learning about how problems are being resolved, if at all. The complaint process that consumers are supposed to go through about captions is so arduous that few consumers end up complaining to the FCC, and there then aren't enough complaints to reflect all the problems that are actually going on. That's going to change next year when deaf and hard of hearing people can no longer use analog captioned programs over the air and the improperly produced digital captions are the only captions left. Where there's really going to be a lot of harm caused by this is when deaf and hard of hearing people lose access to captioned emergency information over the air after a disaster that knocks out their pay TV service.

There was one article mentioned earlier on this thread suggesting that some inexperienced companies are producing caption encoders that fall short in providing captions that will work with all TVs because the companies lack experience dealing with compatibility issues. Theoretically encoders from inexperienced manufacturers could generate digital captions that aren't compatible with existing digital TVs and other digital equipment like DVRs, but the TV stations and producers using these encoders get digital captions on their *compatible* digital equipment, so they think everything is fine on their end when actually, it's not, and they're telling consumers the problem is with their TVs. Most consumers don't know any better and then give up.

If there was a centralized process of figuring out what's going wrong with the digital captions, though, then more problems would be solved more quickly, and that could actually end up saving lives down the road. Captioned television is the only way that many deaf and hard of hearing people can get information about and after emergencies since they can't use radio. So if the digital captions are messed up, then deaf and hard of hearing survivors of disasters that knock out pay TV services can be completely cut off from information about emergency resources, whereas hearing people can listen to the radio. (Hurricane Wilma knocked out cable for three weeks, for example, and many people were scrounging for antennas in order to receive OTA television.)


ATSC/8VSB is still very immature, and not ready for prime time. Less than a year away from analog cutoff and it is still impossible to get reliable reception, much less reliable captions.

That's outside my bailiwick (which is one reason why I'm not bucking to be the chair of the FCC!). I have to wonder, though, who's minding the store with respect to all these problems. A time-consuming, slow complaint-based process that starts months AFTER expensive new hardware is rolled out is NOT the right way to ensure that new technology is working appropriately. It would help if there were expert stakeholders (informed consumers, engineers, etc.) meeting together to address problems with captioning and to work them out. Right now they're not even talking to each other, and millions of people with hearing loss are going to waste a lot of time suffering through severe captioning problems, along with engineers who are apparently on their own about how to identify and resolve captioning problems.

One thing we could do here at the AVS Forum is to start another thread to discuss technical issues with the generation and transmission of digital captions; it would be a place for engineers to share their knowledge, and if consumers themselves or other people ever get information about how digital caption problems were resolved, they could share this information on that thread as well. I'm not an engineer myself, of course, so it might be better if any engineers here would be willing to help me start such a thread (which could then make it more welcoming to other engineers). If not, however, I'd certainly be willing to start it myself.

Dana

"Many TV stations don't care about the technical quality of their
broadcasts. The engineering dept doesn't get the budget
necessary for personnel or equipment. So they may not be able to
devote the resources needed to track down and fix such problems.
Without the proper engineering analysis, it is impossible to say
if this sort of problem is the station's fault, or the fault of
the user's TV or CECB, or perhaps the spec wasn't written
properly and two valid interpretations created incompatible
equipment.

ATSC/8VSB is still very immature, and not ready for prime time.
Less than a year away from analog cutoff and it is still impossible
to get reliable reception, much less reliable captions."


AMEN!

I have OTA only. I wasted a huge number of hours when I first started with DTV. Being used to the old tried and true analog (one size fits all, few if any variables :D) I assumed all problems were with me or my equipment. NOT! The variation in broadcasts from stations and flat out erroneous transmissions which were and still are ignored by locals can drive one nuts even if you do have a reasonable knowledge of whats supposed to be happening. The firestorm that could be coming could be just as much or more so the fault of local broadcasters not paying attention to detail as anything stupid the governmant did.

For the newbies and lurkers out there I have found the local reception threads here at AVS to be the most helpful for this problem. Even if your thread seems to be mostly about cable if they have the same problem with a local you can be pretty sure it's not you or your equipment. Also, in my area a lot of the cable users have OTA for their local stations even if they can get them on cable. OTA HD when done correctly is the best IMO.

It is probably going to be a bumpy ride for at least a couple more years:(.

Dana,

I know this thread is about CC but I believe my above comments are important to those new to DTV to be aware of. As important as CC is, including for me, you don't get there till you jump all the other hurdles. Thanks again for all you have put in to this thread. :)

> I'm not aware of ANYONE actually checking out whether two
> valid interpretations of the specifications could create
> incompatible equipment.

Step one is someone has to find the specifications.

> There was one article mentioned earlier on this thread suggesting
> that some inexperienced companies are producing caption encoders
> that fall short in providing captions that will work with all TVs
> because the companies lack experience dealing with compatibility
> issues.

Experience isn't supposed to matter. The specifications
should spell out, in detail, the format used. A kid
fresh out of college should be able to implement and
test an encoder or decoder.

It would be a good idea if the people writing and reviewing
the specifications had some experience. And someone with
experience should review the kid's work.

The digital captions stuff should be very simple. Some of
the easiest stuff involved in this switchover. The basic
reception problems (multipath, interferrence, etc.) are the
hard part. So the fact that multiple receivers crash when
attempting to decode captions doesn't give me a good
feeling about the rest of the designs. Bad analogy time:
You are at the airport, and the mechanic can't figure out how
to check the tire presure. Do you trust this mechanic to
have checked the engines? Do you want to board this airplane?

> Captioned television is the only way that many deaf and hard
> of hearing people can get information about and after
> emergencies since they can't use radio.

Not just the deaf and hard of hearing, but anyone in a noisy
environment. Dishwasher, window unit A/C, kids screaming,
neighbor using lawnmower, chainsaw, motorcycle, etc. A
disaster might be noisy. If the power is out there may be
generators running, etc. Even without this, sometimes the
actor mumbles and/or there is background noise/music. The
person speaking may have a heavy accent. There are lots of
reasons someone might need captions.

> That's outside my bailiwick (which is one reason why I'm not
> bucking to be the chair of the FCC!).

I doubt that the FCC chair actually does any engineering.
We need someone who cares more about the people getting useful
communications than about big corporations getting easy profits.

> I have to wonder, though, who's minding the store with respect
> to all these problems.

No one. :-(

> One thing we could do here at the AVS Forum is to start another
> thread to discuss technical issues with the generation and
> transmission of digital captions;

That might help.

I'm surprised that I have only seen this mentioned once in this thread. I have two April 2008 Zenith DTT-900 CECBs and they behave the same so I assume it's not their fault: captions, whether analog or digital, are delayed on some channels, and inconsistently even on these, by about five seconds--and I am not talking about live captioning done on the fly, but filmed material. It's extremely annoying. With old-fashioned RF reception on analog broadcasts watched on my CRT TVs, captions are synched perfectly when I have done A-B comparisons with CECB received captions. For those of us with hearing problems, captions that are 5 seconds late make TV watching unpleasant altogether. Once must be able to lip-read simultaneously with caption reading. I am assuming that these delays are the fault of stations who are not ready to do correct captioning in a digital broadcast mode. Are they aware of their problems and can we expect fixes from them?

I'm surprised that I have only seen this mentioned once in this thread. I have two April 2008 Zenith DTT-900 CECBs and they behave the same so I assume it's not their fault: captions, whether analog or digital, are delayed on some channels, and inconsistently even on these, by about five seconds--and I am not talking about live captioning done on the fly, but filmed material. It's extremely annoying. With old-fashioned RF reception on analog broadcasts watched on my CRT TVs, captions are synched perfectly when I have done A-B comparisons with CECB received captions. For those of us with hearing problems, captions that are 5 seconds late make TV watching unpleasant altogether. Once must be able to lip-read simultaneously with caption reading. I am assuming that these delays are the fault of stations who are not ready to do correct captioning in a digital broadcast mode. Are they aware of their problems and can we expect fixes from them?

Robert, this problem needs to be reported directly to those stations; the engineers there may not be aware of the delay. You'll need to be very specific about what programs you see this happening with and the time and date you see the problems. You can try emailing them about the problem, but if they don't resolve it, you'll need to follow up with a letter or fax and then follow up with the FCC if they still don't fix the problem.

This problem is not related directly to converter boxes, so that's why it hasn't been discussed much on this thread, although if you don't have a digital TV, you'll see this problem for the first time when you use a converter box. There's some kind of equipment problem on the station's end, perhaps with the bridge between the 608 to 708 captions (which upconverts 608 to 708 captions). I still see that kind of problem with syndicated programs rather than with primetime programming, though I did see it with my local Fox affiliate before they finally fixed it some months ago. The problem with problematic digital captions from syndicated programs, I think, is that the station chose equipment to create digital captions on the fly even if there were digital captions produced at the time of production, and that conversion process introduces a delay. I don't know whether that delay can be fixed by delaying the broadcast of the video, or via other means. (There are clear differences in the timing of the broadcast of the video anyway on some channels.)

I think it's very important for early adapters like yourself to complain to the stations that this delay makes the captions unusable and the program unwatchable. Judging by the reaction of some local stations in my own area, stations that have invested in equipment that cause these unacceptable delays may resist fixing the problems, which means that it'll be very important to file a complaint with the FCC to force the station to address this or upgrade their equipment. (I think there are other ways of conveying the existing 708 captions from syndicated programs, but these may be more expensive.)

FYI, Fox affiliates appear to use the Evertz 608 to 708 caption bridge, which needs a firmware update to avoid captioning glitches. This problem was discovered last summer, but possibly not all Fox affiliates have done the firmware update. Whether or not the stations with delayed captions are Fox stations, you may want to bring this issue to their attention (as I believe this problem with the bridge did appear to delay the captions for all programs from my local Fox affiliate).

There's some good guidance about how to file a complaint about captioning at:

http://www.nvrc.org/content.aspx?page=10938&section=5#Complaint

Dana

Thought I'd mention that I saw a Magnavox TB100MW9 last month at a friend's house, and the captions were sufficiently large to cover the width of the screen. (The box was in her basement and she was having poor reception at the time, so we didn't spend a lot of time tweaking the settings.)

The other thing I found interesting was although there wasn't a classic caption preview that changes dynamically as changes are made to the captions, the list of the font styles reflected the actual style of each one. I found that helpful since you could see the differences much more clearly among all the styles at once. None of the other CECBs I've tried out do that even though they all provide lists of the different font styles. A "best practice" would be to go ahead and illustrate all the different font styles in such lists in addition to showing an accurate caption preview.

Hopefully we'll get a full review of other captioning-related features from the Magnavox soon.

Dana

A friend of mine sent me his Artec T3APro CECB last week so he could get out of evaluating it here. :D I'll do a full review later, but thought I'd share some comments while I'm waiting for my car to be serviced (I'm using the dealer's Internet-connected computer).

I found the captions usable for the most part and sufficiently large. A curious flaw with the remote control, however, is that the CC button only works if the box is decoding analog captions. It won't do anything at all if the box is decoding digital captions. It's thus useless when one is using digital captions. What an odd decision to make. A CC button should be able to turn off captions instantly in case the captions are covering up something the viewer really wants to see. I'll have to see whether there's another button that can be used to turn off the captions momentarily.

The Artec CECB will be a good one to use in my LCD-equipped Prius in a pinch when I drive cross-country; if I'm stopped somewhere, I can hook up the CECB to the video input of my hacked LCD, and display local television stations. I'll be particularly interested in doing that to check on local weather reports in view of all the tornadoes we've been having. There are channel buttons on top of it in addition to a power off button, and it's quite compact. The Zenith CECB is less suitable for that purpose since the buttons are on the side and could accidentally press against something. The Artec can also be powered directly from the 12 volt supply if one wishes to develop the right mechanism to do that. (I have an inverter, so I don't need to do that.)

Rest assured I don't plan to drive and watch TV at the same time! :eek: Being hard of hearing, though, I can't depend on being able to understand radio communication about severe weather or other emergencies, so it'll be nice to have an alternative way of receiving news that takes advantage of the LCD that's already in my Prius and the other equipment I already have.

(If anyone else has an LCD on their dashboard and is interested in being able to attach different video sources to it, check out http://www.coastaletech.com, which has developed a hack for a number of such cars. Coastaletech also developed and installed the multi-function display that I use for my 2002 Prius.)

Dana

I've set up a new thread for engineers to troubleshoot captioning problems at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1036515

I decided to create a poll with it as well to ask people what local stations are having trouble broadcasting digital captions well. Thus if you're a consumer who has noticed problems with captions from some stations and not others, please go ahead and fill out that poll. It'll be interesting information for engineers as well as others to see. You can only vote once on that poll, so try to think about all the problems you've seen with syndicated programs, not just first-run programs.


Dana

;) fingers crossed!

http://lh6.ggpht.com/dana.mulvany/SEn0WiJGlPI/AAAAAAAAAx4/jMJmubBfRdI/SV400008-2.JPG?imgmax=512

Style 7, large size, black translucent background


Abstract: The DigitalStream DTT 9900’s largest captions are still much smaller than those provided by one’s analog TV. There is no caption preview and the menu is poorly designed and laborious to use. However, most of the font styles were legible on a 25 inch analog TV. There are no raised dots on the buttons of the remote control, but there is a CC button and an audio button. The remote control was unpredictable in its responses due to a hair trigger response.


My set-up: I used the DigitalStream’s composite video cable with my Series 2 TiVo and then used the TiVo’s two composite video outputs to connect my 25 inch analog Magnavox TV and my 20 inch Sharp HDTV (with built-in NTSC tuner). I generally used my analog TV as the basis for my evaluations.

1. Describe the layout of the caption menu, including all the advanced closed captioning features and the number of colors available, and whether there are problems with the design of the menu.

The DigitalStream can decode both analog (CEA-608) and digital (CEA-708) caption data. Contrary to the Zenith/Insignia and Artec CECB, it did not offer the option of adding an edge to make the closed caption text thicker (which would have made the text look bolder).

So far, none of the CECBs I’ve evaluated have offered the option to change the alignment of the captions, including this CECB.

Only the standard eight colors are available for the text and for the background: Black, white, red, green, blue, yellow, magenta, cyan.

The full caption menu was accessed only via the Menu button on the remote control. There are then five menu choices: Display, CC Service, CC Option, CC Text, CC Background. (The design of this menu is very poor since you cannot see all the important selections on one single screen as you can with the Z/I and Artec CECBs.)

Because some other people trying the DigitalStream may not have activated the advanced closed captioning features correctly, I’ll provide instructions near the bottom of this evaluation to explain exactly how to turn the captions on after getting into the Caption Menu.

The following is the layout of the Caption Menu:

Caption Menu:
a. Display (On or off)
b. CC Service (CS1 to CS6, CC1, CC2, Text1,Text2)
c. CC Option (User or Auto)
d. CC Text:
Font Size
Font Style (default, Style 1 through 7)
Font Color (Default, Black, white, red, green, blue, yellow, magenta, cyan)
Text Opacity (flashing, translucent, transparent, solid)
e. CC Background:
Color
Opacity

The menu design is very poor for several reasons; it is too easy for novice users not to realize that they need to select the “User” option instead of the “Auto” option, and if the “Auto” option is selected, there is no indication from the menu itself that the custom features are not operating. One has to dig into all five menu options to see all the settings, whereas the Insignia/Zenith menu provides two different screens to show what has been selected (and a caption preview). There was also no clue about what the various font styles looked like, in contrast to the Magnavox, which actually uses the different font styles that corresponds to each label. It is thus extremely and unnecessarily slow and cumbersome to manipulate the advanced caption features on the DigitalStream.

2. The availability of a CC button on the remote control
The remote control has a CC button on the right side of the remote control underneath the channel rocker button.

3. The choices of the menu activated by the CC button and your rating of the usability of these choices.
The menu activated by the CC button only brings up the following one at a time: CS1 to CS6, CC OFF, CC1, CC2, Text1,Text2. Upon pressing the button, the response is the display of the current service setting at the bottom of the screen; pressing the CC button advances the service to the next one. The CECB could be considered hypersensitive to presses on the remote control, so it’s possible to press the CC button quickly to select what’s needed (but one can easily go too far and then have to cycle through everything again).

Unlike the Zenith/Insignia CECB remote control’s CCD button, this CC button overrides the caption service for all channels, not just the current channel. Thus if one chooses the analog CC1 setting for a digital channel that isn’t broadcasting digital captions, the analog captions will stay on for all other channels that are viewed until one remembers to change back to CS1. When all TV programs required to provide captions actually start providing digital captions on all their digital channels as they are required to do by law, I think this universal application of the CC button would be okay.

Usability of the CC button:

Fair. There seems to be little use for switching among the different services as no TV stations locally seem to be offering any service other than CS1. However, there may be a need to switch to CC1 as some stations may provide only analog-style (CEA-608) captions, not the customizable CEA-708 captions. At a minimum, the menu should have provided a quick way to turn off the captions, to switch between digital and analog caption equivalents, and a shortcut to a better designed Caption Menu in order to change the advanced captioning features more easily (especially since it is so cumbersome to change them).

4. If analog captions can be decoded by the converter box, the ease of reading the font provided for those analog captions (if present)

The analog captions are smaller than the captions provided by the TV, but look relatively clear and sharp for CECB captions when composite video is used. The design of the font style used for analog captions appears acceptable. However, this is likely to be a reflection of how my television, produced in the 1990’s, processes the video. Older TVs that lack comb filtering may not improve the captions as much as my Magnavox TV did.

5. The ease of reading the eight different fonts available for digital captions, particularly the default font

My impression was that if the captions had been designed to be larger, most of the font styles would have worked out very well, with the exception of Style5 and Style6. Keep in mind that I used a fairly large 25 inch TV; the small captions may be illegible on much smaller TVs. Also, most of the captions were only compared using all capital letters.

Interestingly, captions did looked sharper on my HDTV, which has 3D comb filtering, than on my older analog TV, which does not have 3D comb filtering (but which may still have some advanced video processing).

I evaluated each font style by setting the background to translucent and the font size to large, and looked for any letters that lacked definition, using my 25 inch analog TV (which does not have 3D comb filtering). In my opinion, most of the styles were still legible on my 25 inch TV despite the small size.

However, as a captioned TiVo user, I discovered I could not depend on being able to read any font, including the analog caption font, when I fast forwarded at the “one arrow” speed using my TiVo. This meant that my TVs were actually improving the appearance of the captions, but my TiVo was showing the true images of the captions. This was a definite drawback compared to the Zenith/Insignia CECBs. TVs that do not have any comb filtering thus may produce much worse displays of the captions.

Here's a picture of the (illegible) captions paused on the TiVo:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/dana.mulvany/SEn0Tp71exI/AAAAAAAAAxw/biyI3mLTu8Q/SV400004-1.JPG?imgmax=512



Comments about specific styles follow below, though most styles were evaluated on the basis of capital letters (all caps) being used:

Style1: T’s, M’s, N’s, W’s not well-defined (still legible, but fair)

Style2: Legs of N too thin, arms of Y too thin, T too thin (legible)

Style3: W’s smudged. More uniform thickness for each letter than from Font1 and Font2, and easier to read than

Style1 and Style2

Style4: Each letter appeared relatively clear. (Ps and Rs have short legs and might look like Ds to some people; Ns looks too thin in middle). Lower case was good.

Style5 and Style6: Much too difficult to read and to use on a regular basis as captioning

Style7: Best of all the font styles. W’s, Ts, Y, were clear. (Upper case.) The legs of the lower case, small cap capital Rs and Ks were thin, as were the middle of the Ms and Ns.. This font style still was not legible when forwarded via the TiVo.

Pictures of the captions (and glitches) can be seen at:

http://picasaweb.google.com/dana.mulvany/DigitalStreamDTX9900

I tried various text colors on a transparent background. Only two worked fairly well: green and yellow. The other colors were too difficult to read against the background:

(Text colors against translucent black background)
Green okay (bright olive)
Red (worst of all colors, much too thin)
Blue (visible but too difficult to read against background)
Yellow okay (orangish)
Magenta—poor, more purple than pink
Cyan (visible but hard to read against background)

6. The availability of a "caption preview" of some kind when changes are made in the settings for the digital captions, and how well this predicts the largest font style.
No captioning preview was made available, which made the selection and comparison of font styles much, much more difficult. It was difficult to see differences among the first four styles until I looked closely for problem letters and then noticed differences among the styles.

7. How large the digital captions are actually capable of becoming (useful for low-vision viewers or for being able to watch the TV from a significant distance): do the longest lines of the largest captions fill the entire width of the screen, and if not, please estimate what proportion of the width of the screen is filled by the longest line of the largest captions.


The captions were small even when set to the largest size. The different styles appeared to be similar in how large they could become. The longest lines only covered roughly five-eighths of the width of the screen compared to the Zenith/Insignia’s, which could cover the entire width of the screen.

8. How usable the optional translucent background is in providing sufficient contrast to the characters used in the captioning (if it is too transparent, it will be difficult to read the captions)


The translucent background was dark enough to provide sufficient contrast, but would probably be considered too dark by many people who would want to be able to see more of the video behind the background.
9. Whether there are any bugs associated with captioning, such as a failure to detect analog captions automatically if there are no digital captions, jerky movements of captions, cut-off captions, unexpected changes in the background, etc.
None known to be connected with captioning.

10. Whether the remote control has an SAP or audio button to switch to a second audio channel (for descriptive video services), a raised dot on the 5 button, raised dots on the Power button or other buttons (useful for low vision or blind users), or other accessibility issues.


The remote has an Audio button, which is the second button from the left underneath the Volume rocker button. There was no raised dot on the 5 button or on other buttons. The power button is at the top right by itself, however. I found the remote control very difficult to use at first, however, since pressing it slightly “too long” resulted in multiple entries: a firm push on the channel button could result in skipping two channels ahead, and a firm push on the 2 button could result in 2222 showing up on the TV instead of 2. I think the relative hypersensitivity of the CECB coupled with the lack of feedback about what is “too long”would be frustrating for blind people and people with manual dexterity. The remote control of the Zenith/Insignia is more predictable.

11. How well the user manual explains the different digital closed caption settings; please indicate whether it advises choosing Service 1 or explains how to choose it. If you have found the user manual online, please provide the URL if it is not already provided in the first posting.


The owner’s manual is a very large foldout, not a booklet, so if it is available online, it would be difficult to navigate via either HTML or pdf format. It shows images of each screen, but did not explain which CC service to use or that CS1, CS2, etc. referred to digital captions and that CC1, CC2, etc. referred to the analog captions.

I would rate the manual as poor. It did not add enough information beyond what was already available on the onscreen menu. It did explain in very small text that the user option needs to be selected in order to activate the CC text and background.

12. Whether the CECB has crashed or otherwise malfunctioned, and what the circumstances were; this question is best answered after extensive use of digital closed captioning with different channels. Please indicate how many hours or days you've been testing the CECB with digital closed captioning turned on.


There was one glitch that occurred and which came back even after the channel was changed. Visual garbage containing caption menu images slowly came up from the bottom of the screen and obscured the video.

I used the CECB for four weeks. To be candid, the small captions made up my mind pretty quickly that this CECB would be too limited for me, so I wasn’t very enthusiastic about evaluating this further.

General Observations: The DigitalStream CECB was laborious to set up for advanced closed captions; there were far too many steps required to make each change, and the lack of a caption preview was very frustrating. (The unpredictability of the CECB’s responsiveness to presses on the remote control made changing the features even more difficult.)

Due to the impractically small size of the captions, the captions did not compare favorably with my analog TV’s own captions, and the small size thus almost defeated the purpose of having digital captions at all. People with TVs much smaller than my 25 inch TV would have much more trouble reading the captions. I also couldn’t read the captions while fast-forwarding on my TiVo.

A serious flaw with the menu system of the CECB is that even if the Auto option was selected, the ONSCREEN MENU DID NOT VISUALLY INDICATE that making changes in CC features would not work. The CC text and CC background menu options should have been grayed out when the AUTO was selected to indicate that these features were non-operational at the time. Many people could thus think they were seeing customized digital captions when they were only seeing the default captions.

The advanced closed captioning arrangement I found the best was Style7, large, with white text and a solid black background; however, a translucent background also worked well.

If the manufacturer of this CECB would make improvements by enlarging the captions so that the longest line filled the width of the screen, this would be a much better and more flexible CECB for users of captioning. Improvements in the menu design are also needed. There are other CECBs that seem to be better choices for people who want advanced closed captioning features and the extended EPG that the DigitalStream offers.

I would definitely not recommend this CECB for people with small TVs or with both visual impairments and hearing loss due to the small size of the captions, the lack of tactile indications on the remote control, the unpredictability of the remote control, and the difficulty of navigating the menu system. Although the DigitalStream offers an extended EPG, other CECBs such as the Artec and the Dish TVPal do also.


How to Activate Digital Captions via the DigitalStream

Press the Menu button, then press the down button once, then the right button.

The “Display” (of captions) needs to be turned ON by navigating to the “ON” choice, and then pressing the blue OK button on the remote. Hit the Menu button once to back out one level after making any choices.

Navigate to the CC Service option, press the right arrow button, use the blue OK button to select “Select” and then choose the CS1 service for digital captions or CC1 for analog captions. (However, the CC button on the remote can also be used to change the service for captions on all channels, unlike the remote on the Zenith/Insignia.)

IMPORTANT STEP: Navigate to “CC Option,” then choose and select “User” if you want to view changes in the font size, style or other features. (The “Auto” setting would result in the captions remaining in the default settings, which are likely to be too small.) It is very important to choose the “User” setting as none of the changes made later will affect the caption display otherwise. The design of the menu is severely flawed since the Auto setting can be on even though it appears the CC Text and Background choices are still operational. Most menu designers will disable and gray out functions that aren’t actually working so that you know there’s something else you need to do to make those functions work.

The “CC Text” is where one changes the font size, style, color and text opacity. As the default size is too small, I found it important to change the font size to Large.


Dana

Dana, happy to report that Satellite Guys got a DTVPal today, and says the page down button toggles the cc on/off -- none of that having to go through 15 settings like we do with the Zenith.

Here's the link to the DTVPal review, in case you have a few questions for Scott. He does have cc on for one of his screen shots (row 3, 6th from left), and shows the cc menu in another (second from the last pic).

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/138485-first-look-dish-networks-dtvpal-digital-converter.html

The UK broadcasters worked with disability organisation to produce the "Tiresias" typeface that is really clear for those who are both hard of hearing and suffer reduced vision.

http://www.tiresias.org/fonts/index.htm


That is what the marketing folks for tiresias would like you to think. It is not true. Only 17 out of the 35 visually impaired people tested were reported to like the font, 8 preferred Times New Roman (which was a very poor font for the application and for comparison) and the remaining 10 people's responses weren't reported (maybe they preferred the crude dot matrix printer font). As for the 48 deaf people tested (the primary target audience), the researchers pretty much ignored their responses and failed to report them. The captions used were not electronically generated, they pointed a closed circuit TV camera at captions printed on paper, did not have normal viewing distance, and allowed the users to adjust the magnification. "a test of captioning fonts for deaf people refused to report (http://joeclark.org/appearances/atypi/2007/caption-subtitle/) the results from deaf subjects". Dyslexics were also apparently ignored. And this font does not support italics which are required for US captions.

Some devices use the tiresias font which was designed for subtitle use and was supposedly the product of careful research for that application, yet that research was very flawed and did not reflect real world usage.
Some folks have scathing criticism (http://screenfont.ca/fonts/today/708/) of the tiresias font, which they consider unsalvageable, and other fonts commonly used. Sure, tiresias doesn't look too bad if you are close to a good quality TV. But captioning places some incredible demands on a font. People with a wide range of visual and hearing impairments, dyslexics, plus non-disabled people and 2nd language people, have to read at high speed, while also paying attention to action, and for long periods of time and from way too far away, against a possibly transparent background neccessary to not obscure the action, a font that could be rendered on a sharp HDTV to a crappy interlaced analog TV with poor focus over an RF modulator connection, could be resampled with jitter on an analog LCD or rescaled on a high resolution display from a low resolution source. Caption fonts, including tiresias, are typically derived from Print fonts, intended for non-luminous high resolution use and computer fonts intended for close viewing of a high resolution screen. Tiresias was developed in such a way that it is subjected to the high prices ($12,000) of professional font foundaries yet was developed by people who were unpaid and it shows.

I own both Digital Stream and Zenith (both w/o pass thru), Their CC fonts are so small so I disabled them and used TV's built in CC decoder which is bigger than those two's CC. On both, there's no way to make it bigger to match the TV's built in CC font. Both of my TVs are Memorex MT2024 and Celera CL2002. Both 20inchers And TV's built in decoder parse the CC faster than those converter can.

So if your TV's Built in decoder can display CC while using CECB then use the TV's built in and disable CECB's built in.

Indeed: CECBs are such that they only support the types of outputs that support carriage of CC. Good point.

I must start with a great THANKYOU to Dana for this thread. I also want to thank all contributors. I have a few more years of hearing left but I have been using CC for two years now (always). Even though I use it, I never thought about it concerning the CECB devices. I had spent many hours reading reviews and only now saw this thread. I learned so much from these forums. I went out and bought the Zenith 901 today and got home and every thing set the way I want them in 3 hours. I found your review of this unit to be right on what I found.

I finally tried the TV (Magnavox) CC and it works with all 16 channels we have here. So I just turned the CECB CC off.

Now the question is will I ever need to use the CC on the CECB?:)

I own both Digital Stream and Zenith (both w/o pass thru), Their CC fonts are so small so I disabled them and used TV's built in CC decoder which is bigger than those two's CC. On both, there's no way to make it bigger to match the TV's built in CC font. Both of my TVs are Memorex MT2024 and Celera CL2002. Both 20inchers And TV's built in decoder parse the CC faster than those converter can.

So if your TV's Built in decoder can display CC while using CECB then use the TV's built in and disable CECB's built in.

Boult, your experience doesn't coincide with mine because I was able to get large captions from the Zenith (which is the same as the Insignia). Please read posting #2 (the Insignia evaluated there is the same as the Zenith DTT-9900). I think you probably did not set up the digital captions properly on your Zenith so you could see the largest size captions. If you were only seeing the default analog or digital captions from the Zenith, for example, you wouldn't have seen the largest captions. You've got to make sure you are setting things up properly, like using the User selection, to use your selected caption settings.

Also, the digital captions should be showing just as fast as the analog captions from stations that are doing captions properly. If there's a delay in the digital captions, that is probably the fault of the TV station's equipment, not the converter box, and you probably won't see that problem on all of the TV stations. If you do see that problem consistently, however, then it *might* be a problem with the converter box, but check out whether people who have HDTVs in your area report the same problem. (In some rural areas, there might be few stations showing digital captions properly.)

It's important to be systematic in evaluating these converter boxes and not to overgeneralize from problems that one TV station has to the converter box. That's why I recommended a systematic evaluation process for people who haven't used a digital TV before. They need to observe how the captioning is produced by every single TV station and to notice any differences among the TV stations in order to determine whether there's a problem with them or with the converter box. In other words, if there's a problem with delayed captions from only a couple of TV stations and not with all of them, then that's NOT a problem with the converter box.

I'd urge you to try some more experimentation as it sounds like you didn't actually activate the Zenith's large digital captions---as I recall, they were able to reach 100% of the width of the screen, so I really doubt they could be considered too small when set up properly to display the largest size. (The DigitalStream CECB's captions are definitely too small even when set to their largest setting.) If you have terrific, large captions from your analog TVs, you may certainly want to use those captions instead of the ones provided by the Zenith as they will probably look sharper anyway.

Dana

I must start with a great THANKYOU to Dana for this thread. I also want to thank all contributors. I have a few more years of hearing left but I have been using CC for two years now (always). Even though I use it, I never thought about it concerning the CECB devices. I had spent many hours reading reviews and only now saw this thread. I learned so much from these forums. I went out and bought the Zenith 901 today and got home and every thing set the way I want them in 3 hours. I found your review of this unit to be right on what I found.

I finally tried the TV (Magnavox) CC and it works with all 16 channels we have here. So I just turned the CECB CC off.

Now the question is will I ever need to use the CC on the CECB?:)

You're very welcome!

I do like my old Magnavox TV's analog captions; they're crisp and easy to read. However, I myself have found turning on the closed captions from the CECB useful for multiple purposes. For one thing, my own old Magnavox TV stopped showing captions right away when I turn it on, so it's nice to have captions right away by using the CECB's captions. Other analog TVs might stop showing captions altogether but work well in other respects.

I also like having open captioned recordings on my TiVo (created when the TiVo records the captioned program from the CECB). I can forward through some parts and read the dialog if the open captions are legible. I could also create open-captioned recordings on DVDs if I chose to do so, whereas many DVD recording software programs don't properly support closed captioning.

I saw a friend's Magnavox CECB's captions on her TV and saw that they can actually get suitably large, and they looked easier to read than the main TV she was using (because that TV did a poor job with its analog captions). Sometimes a CECB's captions will look better than one's own analog TV's captions, and sometimes they won't.

Dana

I haven't found the answer to this question yet, will the 608 analog stop being transmitted along with the analog video?

About the DTVpal, is the main issue the EPG? I have had this Zenith #901 2 days now and I don't think I would give up the universal remote for the EPG. The 901 also has a CC button.
The only things I am lacking are better captions and a tuner that would get the last channel left to pickup in our area. (the channel is distant and low wattage)

With the 900, you have to press the button about 15 times to turn cc off, so it's little help if text is in the way. As explained to me, DTVPal menu has the cc setup, and the button is a quick on/off, without having to wade through all the options. I haven't seen detailed examples of the cc images yet.

The advantages that caught my attention were price ($40, just raised to $60), 5 event timers (so CECB so is on and tuned to right channel for recording), and yes, long EPG.

I haven't found the answer to this question yet, will the 608 analog stop being transmitted along with the analog video?

The 608 caption data is still required to be transmitted for digital programming (albeit in a digital format) along with 708 caption data. Converter boxes then convert that data into an analog format, Line 21, that can then be decoded by analog TVs and other analog TV products. If this didn't happen, then we wouldn't see analog captions on analog TVs from converter boxes. All converter boxes are required to "pass through" analog captions (though they actually have to convert the ATSC 608 data into a form that can be decoded by NTSC, i.e., analog TVs).

One of the advantages of the DTVPal is that it would enable unattended recordings of digital OTA TV to one's VCR, DVD recorder or analog DVR. To my knowledge, no other CECB has been publicized as having that "VCR" feature. Other CECBs have extended EPGs but I think all the EPGs may work for only one channel at a time. Thus to get a comprehensive overview of listings on all channels, one will still want to look at a TV guide.

Dana

Thank you for the points of the DTVPal,
and about the 608 issue - my TV will continue to get CC 608 data after next year through the CECB?

Thank you for the points of the DTVPal, and about the 608 issue - my TV will continue to get CC 608 data after next year through the CECB?

Your TV should be able to continue getting CEA-608 data IF the TV stations are transmitting this data as they should. However, the FCC needs to make it clearer that both CEA-608 and CEA-708 captions need to be broadcast for all digital programming in order to comply with captioning requirements. There's a chance that some TV station engineers don't or won't realize they need to broadcast both types of captions, and then it will be up to you to complain if you don't see the captions you need. The TV stations are still responsible for providing both types of captions even if the FCC hasn't made this clear to them. (The requirement is buried in a private standard adopted by the FCC in its DTV order that costs money to buy and which isn't available through the FCC itself.)

If you get a converter box that can decode digital captions (and analog captions), you'll have the ability to switch as needed if the TV stations do mess up. If you find that you're not getting CEA-608 captions on your analog TV for a particular program, for example, you can try turning on the caption decoding from the converter box to see if the captions will show up and to tide you over until the TV station corrects what it's doing. (But the TV station won't correct what it's doing unless someone like you alerts the station that there's a problem.)

Dana

Can someone tell me what these digital closed caption modes mean?

CS1, CS2, CS3, CS4, CS5, CS6

:confused:

Can someone tell me what these digital closed caption modes mean?

CS1, CS2, CS3, CS4, CS5, CS6

:confused:


The CS1 is basically the digital equivalent of CC1 (analog closed captions in the primary language). The "S" in "CS1" represents "Service." Most of the time we who communicate in English will want to choose CS1 for stations that are broadcasting primarily in English.

There's no requirement for the stations to use any other service, I think, so there may be nothing that is transmitted via CS2, CS3, CS4, CS5, or CS6. However, some options are to provide simplified English on CS2, Spanish captions on CS2 or CS3, or French or other languages on the other services. It's up to the station to decide whether they'll transmit anything on another service.

Simplified English would be useful for caption viewers who cannot read regular captions quickly, such as very young children, slow readers, or people who are not native speakers of English. It might also be possible for simplified captions to be provided in other languages as well.

Note that stations that broadcast in another language like Spanish or Chinese would broadcast captions in the same language on CC1 or CS1, but might possibly offer English captions on another service.

Many user manuals are doing a pretty poor job explaining what to select when setting up digital captions, so a LOT of people will be surprised when they're asked to choose a digital service (CS1, CS2, etc.). Generally, the safe rule of thumb is going to be to choose the default setting or number 1, but it's a shame not more information is provided.

Dana

The FCC has published an advisory detailing selected features of 41 converter boxes currently on the market, including some limited information on closed captioning and video description. The list is supposed to be updated periodically.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/converterboxfeatures.html

It's interesting what information is provided, such as a limited description of how the caption button behaves on the remote control---whether it toggles the captions on or off (toggle), whether it sequentially progresses through the caption options (the CC1 or CS2 options) or whether it brings up the menu, which none of the currently listed ones do. Some of the caption buttons on the remote controls only cycle through the CC1, CC2 and other analog caption choices and NOT the digital services. For those remote controls, you have to dig into the menu system in order to change the digital service from CS1 to CS2.

What's not said is whether the toggle button turns off the captions for the channel being watched or for all channels. For example, the Zenith/Insignia's caption button only governs the caption settings for the channel being watched, while caption buttons from some other converter boxes apply to all channels.

According to the document, all of the listed converter boxes will at least decode the advanced 708 captions, but some of them do not decode the basic 608 captions, such as the Dish Network, RCA and Philco boxes. So those boxes won't be useful for the few customers who have TVs or monitors that can't decode analog captions and who use analog pass-through. Also, if a station is messing up by not providing 708 captions (which some PBS stations have done), the consumer won't have any captions to decode on those converter boxes.

The document does NOT communicate that other accessibility issues still need to be evaluated by the user, like whether the captions are suitably large or legible, or if there are problems with the captions running off the screen (which has happened with some large caption settings). Also, nothing is said about the existence of a caption preview to help set up digital caption settings.

Anyone disagree with any of the findings of this document? I was pleasantly surprised that the document stated that all the listed converter boxes decode 708 captions, for example.

Dana

After reading this thread (and testing a few boxes myself), I think you're better off using the analog captions. The digital captions are small and hard-to-read, whereas the analog captions on both my televisions are large, bold, and easy to see.

Also the digital captions have an annoying habit of showing-up 5 seconds after the person's mouth moves (example: Family Guy reruns). So it's like watching delayed audio! The analog captions are in sync with the video which makes them superior IMHO.

After reading this thread (and testing a few boxes myself), I think you're better off using the analog captions. The digital captions are small and hard-to-read, whereas the analog captions on both my televisions are large, bold, and easy to see.

It sounds like you have good analog captions from your TVs, but that's not the case for all TVs, and some old TVs don't even show any captions at all.

Also, digital captions are not always small and hard to read. Certain converter boxes do generate small digital captions, like the DigitalStream CECB, but that's not the case for all converter boxes.

(For HDTV users, one also needs to check out whether the small digital captions are fixed ones delivered from the cable company (cable companies like Comcast or Time Warner are often providing inferior digital captions that are small and fixed rather than fully adjustable ones).)


Also the digital captions have an annoying habit of showing-up 5 seconds after the person's mouth moves (example: Family Guy reruns). So it's like watching delayed audio! The analog captions are in sync with the video which makes them superior IMHO.Delayed captions are indeed horrible and can be unwatchable. However, delays in digital captions are due to problems from the TV station or somewhere else, like if the digital captions are being created on the fly from analog captions. Reruns are more likely to show this kind of problem because of the greater technical difficulty using the original digital captions (special equipment is needed to access the original digital captions).

If there's a delay in digital captions during primetime broadcasts for pre-recorded dramas and comedies, then there's a technical problem that needs to be reported and resolved. (All local Fox stations, for example, had problems like this and need to update their caption encoder with firmware if they didn't already do so.) These problems need to be fixed sooner rather than later, so please bring such problems to the attention of the station.

It takes a while, but one can learn to analyze where the caption problems are coming from and to note whether they exist for all programs on all channels or just for some programs on a particular channel and whether there are different problems on other channels.

Dana

Has any one ever done a shootout with these 2 converters? I am looking for 1 that will lock in fringe area signals. I have the DTT900 which does pretty well. I keep hoping to find a converter that will do better. If some could advise on this, that would be great. 73's

Had them both, and the Channel Master's a little more sensitive. PQ's better through s-video, too.

Had them both, and the Channel Master's a little more sensitive. PQ's better through s-video, too.

People looking for digital captions, however, need to be aware that the Channel Master produces small captions even when they're set to the largest size. They may still be watchable on a large TV, especially with S-video, but may be hard to read on smaller TVs.

Dana


CORRECTION: Another person has reported that the second and third caption font for the CM7000 is capable of becoming large, although the default font does not.

Hi, folks. Just thought I'd put out a reminder that we still need a lot more evaluations on this thread of how the different converter boxes handle captioning issues.

FYI, I've just set up a new thread to help collect and organize information about how different HDTVs and other DTV equipment are addressing captioning options. The location of the thread is at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1101290

The information there could help people evaluate any new HDTVs they've just bought to make sure the HDTV will work for all their needs before the trial period runs out. For example, it'll be important to check out whether an HDTV that does not have an analog tuner but which has composite or S-video ports is capable of decoding analog captions from analog devices like VCRs, DVD players or DVRs that use those ports. At this point, it's not clear whether all HDTVs will be able to decode analog captions if there is no built-in analog (NTSC) tuner (which would have triggered the requirement to have built-in captioning of analog captions).

This thread can also be used to share information about how the different HD set-top boxes are addressing captioning issues, particularly since this will be the main way that most people will have captions decoded on their HDTVs. If enough people share their input, we'll be able to see what manufacturers are doing a good job addressing captioning issues so that we can make better informed purchasing (or renting) decisions.

Will analog captions go away? Or will they persist?
Considering CC, is there any reason to argue with the tally at
avsforum.com avs-vb showthread.php?t=1029256
which shows the Zenith CECB as best?

Thanks much, Dana, for starting this informative thread. It has
now become very long, and I may have some of this wrong.

It seems none of the CECBs do a very satisfactory job of
displaying captions. I'm very reluctant to put more money into
an obsolete technology. Would I be better off buying a very
small DTV, perhaps a 7" screen?

Where I'm coming from:
I have a 21" Sharp TV from 1995, and no experience with DTV.
The lenses in my eyes are no longer flexible. My eyes naturally
focus about 11" or 12" in front of my nose. I don't want to
spend as much as $300 on a large 16" or 19" TV, or any size,
really. CC is important to me, including being able to shift
the captions off the image or, at least, turn them on and off.
I've seen very little about zooming. Can you zoom out and push
the CC off the image while both remain visible? Or conversely,
zoom in and see only the center of the image at the expense of
the CC (and the edges of the image)? Is there some
simple-minded way to turn the CC on and off without rotating
thru 9 or 14 button pushes?

TIA.

Will analog captions go away? Or will they persist?

The FCC requires analog caption data (CEA-608) to be provided for all non-exempt digital television programming; this will ensure compatibility with analog TVs that have built-in decoding of captions.


Considering CC, is there any reason to argue with the tally at
avsforum.com avs-vb showthread.php?t=1029256
which shows the Zenith CECB as best?


Each person needs to evaluate his or her own situation. Some people may want a converter box that will work with a smart antenna, particularly if there are transmitters from very different directions. Others may want a box that has an S-video output for the best picture quality possible from a converter box (and to feed into an analog TiVo, DVD recorder or VCR). If you are satisfied with the analog captions produced by your own analog TVs, you don't need to turn on the digital captions produced by the converter boxes. Many people have actual experience with the Zenith because it was easy to get from a store, whereas some of the other ones had to be mail-ordered.



Thanks much, Dana, for starting this informative thread. It has
now become very long, and I may have some of this wrong.

You're very welcome!


It seems none of the CECBs do a very satisfactory job of
displaying captions. I'm very reluctant to put more money into
an obsolete technology. Would I be better off buying a very
small DTV, perhaps a 7" screen?

Very small DTVs are not required by the FCC to provide closed captioning, although some TV manufacturers may offer this capability. Don't forget that if you like the captions from your own analog TV, you don't have to use the captions provided by the converter box.

It's not accurate to say none of the CECBs do a good job of displaying captions, though. The captions from the Insignia/Zenith are okay if you choose the right font and color combination, and other choices can work satisfactorily among some of the other converter boxes. There's actually not a critical need to have eight font styles if you're happy with one, two or three of the font styles and if they can get large enough to meet your needs.



Where I'm coming from:
I have a 21" Sharp TV from 1995, and no experience with DTV.
The lenses in my eyes are no longer flexible. My eyes naturally
focus about 11" or 12" in front of my nose. I don't want to
spend as much as $300 on a large 16" or 19" TV, or any size,
really. CC is important to me, including being able to shift
the captions off the image or, at least, turn them on and off.
I've seen very little about zooming. Can you zoom out and push
the CC off the image while both remain visible? Or conversely,
zoom in and see only the center of the image at the expense of
the CC (and the edges of the image)? Is there some
simple-minded way to turn the CC on and off without rotating
thru 9 or 14 button pushes?



It sounds like you WANT the zoom to make the CC invisible, but this would be a design flaw!

Some remote controls have other buttons meant for other purposes that can be used to deactivate the captioning temporarily. Pressing the Guide button, for example, might bring up a transparent guide on the top of the screen which also deactivates the captioning, allowing you to see what the captiosn had been covering up.

BTW, if you wear hearing aids with telecoils, you may be happier with an LCD TV since CRT TVs are likely to generate electromagnetic interference with telecoils. LCDs don't generally cause so much EMI. Sitting that close to the TV, you'd easily be able to use a neckloop with the LCD TV to hear as well as possible.


Another person wrote of a 7" Digital Prism LCD TV from CVS pharmacy with the following features:

Analog and Digital over the air and cable tuner.
Built in Battery
Closed Captions
AC adapter - 9V output
Car power adapter.

He wrote:

"It runs for about 2 hours on the built-in battery and I think an external battery pack of six D cells would work OK. The brand name is Digital Prism but I have not been able to find a web page for it."

Don't take this as an endorsement, but since it can be hard to find a small LCD TV with closed captioning, I thought I'd mention this TV here.


Dana

Another person wrote of a 7" Digital Prism LCD TV from CVS pharmacy with the following features:

Analog and Digital over the air and cable tuner.
Built in Battery
Closed Captions
AC adapter - 9V output
Car power adapter.

He wrote:

"It runs for about 2 hours on the built-in battery and I think an external battery pack of six D cells would work OK. The brand name is Digital Prism but I have not been able to find a web page for it."

Don't take this as an endorsement, but since it can be hard to find a small LCD TV with closed captioning, I thought I'd mention this TV here.

I actually work for the company that is the distributor of this Digital Prism TV and helped write the user manual for it (although I'm admittedly not an expert on all the technical details). There's not a web page for it yet, but we're working on setting one up soon, but it will initially only be for recycling and disposal instructions. Eventually we're gonna add manual downloads, etc.

Since the factory that makes it is in China, it's been hard to find info on exactly how all the closed captioning modes work-- any ideas on where to look for some reference material?

I actually work for the company that is the distributor of this Digital Prism TV and helped write the user manual for it (although I'm admittedly not an expert on all the technical details). There's not a web page for it yet, but we're working on setting one up soon, but it will initially only be for recycling and disposal instructions. Eventually we're gonna add manual downloads, etc.

Since the factory that makes it is in China, it's been hard to find info on exactly how all the closed captioning modes work-- any ideas on where to look for some reference material?

Manufacturers are coming up with their own shorthand and their own menu, so there may not be one generic source of information that will definitively answer questions about how to activate captioning for a particular product. There's also a lot of variability about how the manufacturers are implementing the captioning options. You can see how challenging this is by looking at this thread on activating captions from pay TV services (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1036172).

Questions about captioning for a portable DTV should really be addressed in a more appropriate thread than this one anyway. You could go ahead and ask questions about the captioning at this thread that I myself set up for how different DTV equipment handle captioning:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1101290

You could upload a digital picture there of the menu and ask questions about the areas that puzzle you.

There's another thread for portable TVs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=955870) but it doesn't specifically address captioning, so I think it would be more useful to use the last thread above.

Dana

Very good info, Dana-- thanks. Yeah, I realized after I posted that I was kinda hijacking the thread-- sorry about that.

Just curious if everyone complaining about the font size has gone into the menu and changed the font to max and also change the font type. I did this on my 36" and it is perfectly viewable. If you use the max size of the default font it still sucks, but the second or third choice is much larger and more readable.


Today I came across the above comments from the thread for ChannelMaster CM-7000 CECB.

This shows that it is really, really important to try out all the different caption fonts before reporting that a particular CECB is not capable of producing large enough captions. Previously, the ChannelMaster had been described by quite a few people as providing only small captions.

The CM7000 has S-video output, so this feature alone should help it provide clearer captions than the majority of CECBs that offer only RF or composite video outputs. For more information about that CECB, check out the thread on the CM7000 at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1004274

I ordered the CM7000 on February 25th from Amazon, which was selling it for $49.99 at the time and provided free 3-5 day shipping for purchases over $25. Since there was no tax, and I was able to use my $40 coupon, I paid only $9.99. Interestingly, Amazon said I had 50 days to use my coupon after I filled out the form to use it online, but I didn't want to push my luck since the expiration date was the next day. The CM7000 still hasn't shipped yet, so it'll be a while before I can review it.

Dana

Today I came across the above comments from the thread for ChannelMaster CM-7000 CECB.

This shows that it is really, really important to try out all the different caption fonts before reporting that a particular CECB is not capable of producing large enough captions. Previously, the ChannelMaster had been described by quite a few people as providing only small captions.

The CM7000 has S-video output, so this feature alone should help it provide clearer captions than the majority of CECBs that offer only RF or composite video outputs. For more information about that CECB, check out the thread on the CM7000 at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1004274

I ordered the CM7000 on February 25th from Amazon, which was selling it for $49.99 at the time and provided free 3-5 day shipping for purchases over $25. Since there was no tax, and I was able to use my $40 coupon, I paid only $9.99. Interestingly, Amazon said I had 50 days to use my coupon after I filled out the form to use it online, but I didn't want to push my luck since the expiration date was the next day. The CM7000 still hasn't shipped yet, so it'll be a while before I can review it.

Dana

I have mine on large and Font 4, it's the best I found. On 32" screen, it is adequate but not acceptable for people with vision problems. I think most people compare their CECB's cc to what they had with analog, and there is no comparison.

ETA: and the CM7000 IMO is nowhere near as good on cc as the Zenith.

This quote above is from another person who thought Font 4 was the best one to use.

I goofed by not doublechecking earlier whether there was a review of the captions from the CM-7000. There's one at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13506638#post13506638

and it shows a picture of the Font 4 set to large, which is not very large:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/SaxYy4JGzuI/AAAAAAAAB-o/CQngQ6ohaNI/s640/ChannelMasterVsAnalogCaptions.JPG


(The small captions use the CM-7000's Font 4 set to large; the large captions are from the analog TV.)


There's a small chance that Font 2 and Font 3 might actually be significantly larger than Font 4 when set to large. Remember that the preview function doesn't necessarily indicate which font is actually the largest one; I've found previews to be very misleading in this respect.

What would be useful are digital pictures of Fonts 2, 3 and 4 from the CM-7000 set to large so that we have objective rather than subjective information. There can be extremely wide differences in size despite the preview.


(I've attempted to show pictures below, but they may not show up in your browser, so I've also provided links to them.)
As an example, look at the difference between three caption fonts from my Sharp 20" HDTV, all set to large:


http://lh4.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/R-8mStpOQmI/AAAAAAAAAgY/raZkadNV23k/s720/SV400010.JPG
Casual Font (italics, all caps) Second line has 18 characters
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/R-8m29pOQzI/AAAAAAAAAiA/qkCnaRrCGaE/s720/SV400033.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/R-8mXNpOQoI/AAAAAAAAAgo/u_ARgFi9axs/s720/SV400015.JPG
Computer Font (Top line has 19 characters)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/R-8mXNpOQoI/AAAAAAAAAgo/u_ARgFi9axs/s720/SV400015.JPG


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/R-8mqNpOQuI/AAAAAAAAAhY/GyQGOHSBjX0/s720/SV400024.JPG
Formal font (http://picasaweb.google.com/dana.mulvany/SharpHDTV#5183404155541013202) (corresponds to Style7 and Font7 below) Bottom line has 21 characters. (Ignore top line)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/R-8mqNpOQuI/AAAAAAAAAhY/GyQGOHSBjX0/s720/SV400024.JPG


Here are screenshots of captions set to the large size from the DigitalStream and Insignia CECBs, displayed on my Magnavox analog TV:


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/SEn0xRZ7ynI/AAAAAAAAAzI/dsvtcoBTBT0/s720/SV400047.JPG
Style 7 (DigitalStream) Second line has 32 characters and spaces (the longest possible)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/SEn0xRZ7ynI/AAAAAAAAAzI/dsvtcoBTBT0/s720/SV400047.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/R7onb9oK2bI/AAAAAAAAAS0/m5-O07xrUEs/s720/SV400284.JPG
Font 7 (from the Insignia) Second line has 32 characters and spaces (longest line possible)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_G1FZLYRasHw/R7onb9oK2bI/AAAAAAAAAS0/m5-O07xrUEs/s720/SV400284.JPG


The Insignia's large Font 7 is quite a bit larger than any other captions I've seen. Note how for the Insignia's large Font 7, lines with 32 characters and spaces span the width of the screen, while other devices produce lines that take up only two thirds of the screen or less. These size differences make quite a difference when viewing a TV from a distance or if the TV is on the small size.

When I came to this thread today, I saw this announcement:

"Please be so kind to be sure you read the general notice announcement in this section before posting. We are just making sure people see it based on some issues that have been caused by some members in this section. Thank you."

However, I couldn't find this "general notice announcement" anywhere. Anyone know where to find it or what it's about?

By the way, it appears that using Firefox to create links to pictures causes a problem, and that's what I had been using. I'm switching to Internet Explorer to see if this will make a difference.

Dana

I've corrected the links to the pictures for a previous posting so that they will show up inline. Check out:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15940343#post15940343

It should be very interesting to see the comparative pictures of captions from different sources.

Dana

I haven't come across any converter boxes that definitively have both S-video and digital closed caption decoding, but the features of many converter boxes aren't known yet. It would certainly be nice to be able to evaluate the quality of digital closed captions when using S-video, and hopefully there'll be at least one such converter box with both features (particularly for people whose analog TVs don't have captions that are easy for them to read and who have an S-video port on the TV, VCR or DVD recorder---the digital captions can be recorded, if desired).

I haven't come across any converter boxes that definitively have both S-video and digital closed caption decoding, but the features of many converter boxes aren't known yet. It would certainly be nice to be able to evaluate the quality of digital closed captions when using S-video, and hopefully there'll be at least one such converter box with both features (particularly for people whose analog TVs don't have captions that are easy for them to read and who have an S-video port on the TV, VCR or DVD recorder---the digital captions can be recorded, if desired).

I haven't been keeping up with converter boxes, so I don't know if there are new ones with S-video that do a better job with captions. Judging from my own experience with the CM-7000, though, the ability to use S-Video isn't worth the absurdly small size of the captions that device provides. I prefer the large yellow captions that I get from the Insignia.

As far as I know, they haven't been making any new CECB's for a long time now. I wouldn't expect anything new, either. They're done with that for the USA. Maybe when Canada converts. Just standalone, ATSC/QAM HD tuners. Might want to check some of those out, too - although they've been cutting out s-video completely on a lot of the cheaper devices out there these days.

There are only 3 or 4 CECB's with s-video, and I know that none compare to the CM in areas other than CC (which I really don't know anything about in that regard, other than with the CM, which I have - and I agree the font is ridiculously small. Isn't too bad on a large, HD display, but you should really be using an HD tuner on one of those, anyway).

I know the Apex's with s-video aren't as good, PQ-wise (they have a better guide, but that's about it). There's one or two other, "no-name" brands with it, but I think they're kind of overall flimsy and buggy, compared to boxes like the CM and the Insignia. However, there should be threads on them around here somewhere. Don't know if they've ever gotten into the CC part, but you could revive them and ask, if they're not in the archives yet.

Next to impossible to find a Zenith/Insignia new. Probably can still find them used, though. They do have larger font than most, and are really good tuners otherwise (#1, all-around rated here, actually).

The little-known TRTs have s-video. Very few reviewers over yonder thread but based on the info they appear to be the best boxes and are feature rich. Look sturdy too like a CM. The main dude wrote some pretty good review info so there might be something in there about CC.