I have been watching CBS in HD for the last 6 years and I have seen them change the CBS "Eye", however, recently it seems they have moved the eye graphic up and to the right. I don't have a problem with it moving to right as much as I do up, more into the actual picture. Am I crazy? Do I watch too much TV? Someone please confirm that you noticed this also.

It's definately more to the right. I'm not sold on the higher up yet. :)

I've noticed that it's moved to the right, too. It's halfway cut-off on my TV screen.

You're not crazy. I noticed the "eye" has been moved too. I don't think the "eye" has ever really changed(it has been the same over the years) but it has been moved.

In its old position, it was partially visible when the HD channel was 4:3 center cut. My hypothesis would be that with more viewers getting HD/digital converters, people are choosing to watch digital CBS center cut, so the eye is moved over to avoid a "clipped" logo.

ABC has kept their national HD logo out of the 4:3 area and FOX inserts local bugs outside 4:3 as well. NBC doesn't keep 4:3 safe, except for news, since NBC letterboxes for SD.

It's halfway cut-off on my TV screen.

What size is your TV? What type? Seems like alot of overscan for an HDTV.

It's an RCA 52 inch projection.... it's about two years old. I know it's the TV, because the eye is still fully visible on my LG plasma. For some reason, the RCA cuts off a bit of the sides. It's a 16:9 screen, too.

I had two CRT SDTVs(one Sony, one RCA). The Sony showed more picture than the RCA. The overscan may be an RCA thing??

I don't know... it could be... because I've only had that problem with RCA. All the other brands I own show the entire picture. The ABC-HD logo is completely visible on every other TV but the RCA. All I see on the RCA is the little ABC circle logo. Same goes for the local FOX bugs. Half of it is missing. In my opinion, the LG models are the best value.. price wise and quality wise. I'd say Polaroid is the worst. RCA is just so-so..

I noticed that the "Eye" was shifted about 2 weeks ago. For me, with a CRT based RPTV, the shift to the right actually pushes the Eye partially off of the right side of the screen. Here are two pictures I took of my TV screen using images from my DVR. The first one is Jericho from last week. The second image is an old NCIS from January. Notice the position of the "Eye" in each picture. For the record, my set is a 65" Mitsubishi. My overscan is within the acceptable range using the HDnet test images.

http://home.att.net/~pix/AVS/Jericho021208.JPG

http://home.att.net/~pix/AVS/NCIS_Old.JPG

I actually just noticed this the other night as well. Now the Eye looks like it is closer to the right side of the screen than the bottom of the screen, making its placement look uneven.

Yea it's been moved recently, I noticed it as well. I'll try to get some screencaps to this thread, I have a short clip from Letterman(great moments in presidential speeches, some of those are hillarious) a couple weeks ago before they moved it and can just capture another one with the current placement.

In its old position, it was partially visible when the HD channel was 4:3 center cut. My hypothesis would be that with more viewers getting HD/digital converters, people are choosing to watch digital CBS center cut, so the eye is moved over to avoid a "clipped" logo.Close. Actually, CBS intends to discontinue SD service to affiliates sometime this year and require them to down-convert the HD feed for their analog stations. Hadn't thought of the implications of the move, but it makes sense to keep half a logo from showing up on the analog broadcast. Let's just hope they don't do what the CW does and move it into the 4:3 area.

Here we go, this is before the movement:

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/747/capture1pf7.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture1pf7.jpg)

and after:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8913/capture3ua3.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture3ua3.jpg)

I'd say it's moved down just a smidge, and over to the right a good amount.

With the majority of HD sets being sold being LCD or plasma it seems overscan is not being taken into account when networks display all of its extraneous graphics on the screen. I have a 5 year old Toshiba RPTV with overscan that misses a large portion of the picture in comparison to my other LCD TVs (Toshiba 32HL95 and a Toshiba 40RF350U). The native setting on the 40RF350U really shows how much the rear projection misses!

.................. but it makes sense to keep half a logo from showing up on the analog broadcast...........................

At the expense of chopping off 1/4 of the logo on a substantial number of HD displays? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://home.att.net/~pix/AVS/Jericho021208.JPG

Maybe the better solution is to have TV manufacturers design their sets for a proper amount of overscan? I'm not sure what a "proper amount" would be but it would seem to make sense to standardize this, no?

Here we go, this is before the movement:

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/747/capture1pf7.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture1pf7.jpg)

and after:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8913/capture3ua3.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture3ua3.jpg)

I'd say it's moved down just a smidge, and over to the right a good amount.Actually, it looks like it moved up a smidge. The old location was better IMO (similar distance in number of pixels between side and bottom edges). Besides, the old location wouldn't go into the 4x3-safe area after overscan on most SDTVs. Where I live, we have three TVs. When we watch channel 9's news, we don't see any hint of their "HD" logo which technically goes into the 4x3 center-cut area.

Using the two screen captures, here is a comparison with the newer image as the top layer at 50% opacity.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1876/comparebm2.th.jpg (http://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparebm2.jpg)

Looks like CBS is getting ready for DTV. I just saw a 4:3 safe ad after the commecial on TPIR in HD.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the "eye" to be moved toward the edge more, but it also has too be moved down to make it look right. ABC's logo has proper placement, while NBC is just obnoxious!

About the center cut issue, is anyone concerned the networks go way of the CW and here in Cincinnati, MNTV, where they place the logo in the 4:3 area? I absolutely hate this.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8913/capture3ua3.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture3ua3.jpg)

I'd say it's moved down just a smidge, and over to the right a good amount.I'd say Letterman is one goofy looking.....

At least they haven't filled the HD screen with a bunch of crap like all of the other stations have done, yet.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the "eye" to be moved toward the edge more, but it also has too be moved down to make it look right. ABC's logo has proper placement, while NBC is just obnoxious!

About the center cut issue, is anyone concerned the networks go way of the CW and here in Cincinnati, MNTV, where they place the logo in the 4:3 area? I absolutely hate this.

The CW is playing back a single HD master, with a single logo keyer. The 4:3 centercut is downconverted and goes down the SD network and the same 16:9 HD feed is fed to the HD uplink.

In the near future, I think we'll find that many of the networks will transition to a single HD network and depend upon the local stations to downconvert for their SD digital subchannels. What they do with the "bugs" is an individual choice by the network; however, we can only hope that the CW solution is not adopted by others.

I noticed last night that they've moved it back slightly to the left . . .

I noticed that the "Eye" was shifted about 2 weeks ago. For me, with a CRT based RPTV, the shift to the right actually pushes the Eye partially off of the right side of the screen. Here are two pictures I took of my TV screen using images from my DVR. The first one is Jericho from last week. The second image is an old NCIS from January. Notice the position of the "Eye" in each picture. For the record, my set is a 65" Mitsubishi. My overscan is within the acceptable range using the HDnet test images.

http://home.att.net/~pix/AVS/Jericho021208.JPG

http://home.att.net/~pix/AVS/NCIS_Old.JPG

Also had noticed the eye move.

Also watching on a CRT HD RPTV (Hitachi 51F59A).

CRT sets are gonna come with overscan - nature of the beast. Fixed pixel sets generally have little to no o'scan. In order to have little/no oscan, you'd have to use very expensive CRTs/lenses -such as those in FPs. Such components wuld have made those RPTVs prohibitively expensive for most, hence the "cheaper" CRT/lenses most RPTVs used to use.

In my own case, I don't get Id bug cutoff from CBS & ABC's logo butts right up against the right edge of the screen. This is the case, though, only because I reduced overscan & calibrated my set.

Of course, if you don't have the experience in such a job (o'scan reduction will really hose CRT RPTV picture/geometry/convergence--fixable, but not easy), you may want to just live with it or get in pro calibrated.

My set lies @ around 4% o'scan all around, per AVIA. (OOB it was more like 6-7%). It's as low as it's going to get. But the 4% of picture I lose generally contains no needed info, so no worries.

jwebb -

I know what you mean about overscan . . .
Since they moved the logo back a little to the left in the past day or two I no longer lose any of the CBS eye offscreen. So now it looks better, and not like if something is seriously wrong with my set. :)
I guess CBS must have realized that there are many many older CRT based HDTV's out there!:D:D

It was a strange move, in Australia on Letterman we have two watermarks, the normal one (network Ten here plays the show) plus the CBS eye. On my SDTV (16:9) it looked terrible with one watermark 4:3 safe (the local one) and the other half cut off.

I might have to take a look to see if it is now better. I haven't watched Letterman in a while as the network now plays it in WS only and not HD since they show movies on that channel.

Well, I am watching "Two and Half Men" and the CBS Eye has moved again! It is now in the 4x3 area. What is this, the CW? Bad move CBS, please fix this, you can not worry about the people that are zooming their picture to fit a 4x3 screen. Most people will chose to watch the entire picture, and the logo placement will not work.

Well, I am watching "Two and Half Men" and the CBS Eye has moved again! It is now in the 4x3 area. .

That is correct, this is being prompted mostly by DirecTv and Echostar now taking the LIL HD feeds and feeding a downconvert to their SD subs. This will quickly happen in almost every market, as they can't do the entire country overnight. And, the cable guys will follow suit as well. The other networks will soon follow suit. So there ya have it.

I have heard the CBS "Eye" will be replaced next week with a tear falling from the eye because of the money they've lost on Katie Couric. :D;)

Get used to it. The networks are planning to drop their SD distribution, so the downconversion will be done downstream. As for the comparison with CW, CBS originates that network.

Ok, I understand what is obviously going on, however, what is being done is NOT the solution. Feed everyone the widescreen aspect ratio with the logo placed correctly. People are used to widescreen by now, DVD came out over 10 years ago. Lets move on with the switch and force those with old tvs to watch programming for widescreen. I mean its been 10 years for us to watch 4x3 programs on widescreen tvs.

JunkyardDogg, I agree but I can only imagine the whining, might be more of a negative than a positive. I'm using an HD TiVo on my 32" bedroom set and I don't mind the bars at the top or bottom in the least, but that's me. I can imagine that on a smaller set it would be problematic.

Ok, I understand what is obviously going on, however, what is being done is NOT the solution. Feed everyone the widescreen aspect ratio with the logo placed correctly. People are used to widescreen by now, DVD came out over 10 years ago. Lets move on with the switch and force those with old tvs to watch programming for widescreen. I mean its been 10 years for us to watch 4x3 programs on widescreen tvs.I know many coworkers who claim their families/friends say they are not in a hurry to replace their TV because "everything I watch is square." If they're watching analog, some may be unaware that much of what they watch probably is available in 16x9.

So I think that forcing those with 4x3 TVs to watch letterboxed content would actually speed up adoption of widescreen sets so content providers can actually use the whole frame without having to protect for 4x3.

I'm actually OK with the bug, it is unobtrusive. The best position for the bug is the way it was until this year. The way it was last week was bad. I dumped an HD CSI in letterbox to tape and I noticed the bug cut off b/c overscan on an SDTV. With the bug too far in the corner, it's punishing viewers who choose to watch correctly on SD(in letterbox).

4:3 safe is a hell of a lot better than the alternative: a separate SD digital feed that may require a bandwidth eating subchannel. Just image ANOTHER channel along with Wx Plus or any other subchannel your affiliate has. For many stations(especially NBC) or markets with CW/MNTV on DT2 channels, this would mean a third subchannel.

As long as they keep the bug the way it is, fine. If they start cluttering and putting up ads, then nickdawg's gonna start barking:D

That is correct, this is being prompted mostly by DirecTv and Echostar now taking the LIL HD feeds and feeding a downconvert to their SD subs. This will quickly happen in almost every market, as they can't do the entire country overnight.

Interesting side-note: In my area, they are only doing this with the FOX station -- the other network affiliates are still being taken from SD fiber feeds. To verify this, one of the guys at another station yanked the video to the fiber feed and the DirecTV feed went away. Oh, he put it right back. :D

I wonder if FOX has plans to move the local affiliate bug to the 4x3 area? As of now, when you watch FOX in this market in SD on DirecTV, it is bug-free, since the affiliate bug is outside of the 4x3 space. A new "golden era" of bug-free viewing, for those that can stomach the "one notch above YouTube" look of DirecTV's SD ...

"one notch above YouTube" look of DirecTV's SD ...

You should see Time Warner in my area. SD CW is the worst. FOX isn't too pretty either. All the local channels are SD analog upconverts. CW has diagonal stripes and ghosting on it. Unwatchable on a HDTV or SDTV.

I'm hoping with those analog SD feeds going away, they'll start downconverting the digital feed for SD. It's really a night and day difference. I know I'm trading in a SD box for an HD just so I can watch the letterboxed HD channel on my other SDTV.

I wonder if FOX has plans to move the local affiliate bug to the 4x3 area? As of now, when you watch FOX in this market in SD on DirecTV, it is bug-free, since the affiliate bug is outside of the 4x3 space. A new "golden era" of bug-free viewing, for those that can stomach the "one notch above YouTube" look of DirecTV's SD ...

Hello Bill,

Yes, I understand FOX is planning on moving the splicer bug into 4x3 safe area, I have seem some prime programs where that already has been done.
You know as well as I do that the network brass and local GM's, regardless of
network, won't stand to be "unbranded" when their competition has a bug.

Grrrr, now Letterman looks as bad as the CBS Early Show on SD in Australia. HD still has our local watermark at the top left (16:9) but this competing watermark thing is enough to make me turn off the TV (since I am recording something on another HD channel and can only see this is SD).

CBS should do everyone a favour and remove the annoying stain.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3303/lettermansdwatermarksgy5.th.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3303/lettermansdwatermarksgy5.jpg)

I hate to say it, but since I have put a Digital to Analog converter on my SD TV in the basement, I can see why they are moving the bugs to the 4:3 safe area. The DA boxes can do your "normal, zoom, other.." type of aspect ratio adjustments. For the Widescreen HD programs, and the SD programs that are pillar boxed, using the "zoom" looks great on these old 4:3 SD tvs.

Using "zoom" mode gets rid of the upper/lower black bars, and for SD material on the HD channels, it also gets rid of the pillar bars, presenting the viewer with a full screen that they expect. The only drawback to this, is that you lose what ever is in the side "pillar bar" area. That usually means the HD friendly bug (another advantage of zoom).

So I fear that we will endure the 4:3 safe area much longer than originally expected due to this.

I've noticed that it's moved to the right, too. It's halfway cut-off on my TV screen.

You've gone way too high on the overscan. What display do you have? BTW, back on topic, I've noticed it has moved to the LEFT, more towards the center of the screen.

Wolfie

Grrrr, now Letterman looks as bad as the CBS Early Show on SD in Australia. HD still has our local watermark at the top left (16:9) but this competing watermark thing is enough to make me turn off the TV (since I am recording something on another HD channel and can only see this is SD).

CBS should do everyone a favour and remove the annoying stain.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3303/lettermansdwatermarksgy5.th.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3303/lettermansdwatermarksgy5.jpg)

UGH!! That has to be the most inconsistent network. In another post they had the bug in the top left corner. Now it appears they tried to insert their "ten" bug over the eye. And it's not even lined up right.

Hello Bill,

Yes, I understand FOX is planning on moving the splicer bug into 4x3 safe area, I have seem some prime programs where that already has been done.
You know as well as I do that the network brass and local GM's, regardless of
network, won't stand to be "unbranded" when their competition has a bug.

I guess that means we might see bugs like the local FOX news(animated, rotating) on regular programming. They seem to love it. Our local FOX went from no bug during the news to that thing in the bottom left corner when they made the set/graphics changes.

UGH!! That has to be the most inconsistent network.

They are consistent, the watermarks stay the same. The problem is that Letterman is not always shown in HD here due to other shows or movies on the HD channel. The problem tonight was that I had to watch in SD as that was all I could get in the room - this is where the problem lies. The watermarks look awful when stuck together this way. Before when the show was on another network, they would switch the watermark to the top right to not have this problem.

I am hoping that CBS simply forgot to tell them and they will do this but I hightly doubt it. It really is a shame as on SD it is rather off-putting with two logos on top of each other but slightly off-centered. Just to show, below is the same frame (only got the start in HD as the other show started 10 minutes after).

Ten SD (720x576i resized to 1024 correctly)

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/5820/lettermansdhp4.th.jpg (http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/5820/lettermansdhp4.jpg)

Ten HD (1920x1080i)

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1709/lettermanhdov6.th.jpg (http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1709/lettermanhdov6.jpg)

Why we even need to see the CBS logo is beyond me anyway. It is annoying on shows such as The Early Show saying "more to come on this CBS station". Err, guess what? We don't have a "CBS station" here. Watermarking really is getting out of hand.

Oh well, I am at least thankful to get the show in high definition for the moment - I just hope it stays that way.

It seems like the logical, smart thing for the networks to do would be to send a "clean" feed of the show to other countries. I'm assuming they don't have EVERY show CBS has at the same time. It doesn't make sense to have an ad for a show that may never air or is at a different time. They screwed up big time. The "clean feed" used to be the HD feed.

And there is a version without bugs/snipes. If you watch shows online(CBS.com or ABC.com) you get a clutter free show, complete with studio credits at the end:D No bugs, no ads, no promos for other shows at the end. If only they could show that on TV, in full HD :)

The CBS eye in the 4:3 safe area is not too much worse than the peacock being 4:3 safe on most NBC HD sports broadcasts. Their simply tuning up for the digital transition. Yeah....right!

Well, I am watching "Two and Half Men" and the CBS Eye has moved again! It is now in the 4x3 area. What is this, the CW? Bad move CBS, please fix this, you can not worry about the people that are zooming their picture to fit a 4x3 screen. Most people will chose to watch the entire picture, and the logo placement will not work.Not quite.

See, even after the analog shutoff, most non-primetime programming will remain 4x3 aspect ratio for a while, often until they go HD. In such a case, not many of the people about to get a CECB will be willing to continually switch between 16x9 and 4x3-safe depending on the given programming. They'll want the TV picture to look "right" with as little adjustment as possible; it's more about the black sidebars and "postage-stamp" issues than the getting used to 16x9, as most people these days don't mind letterboxing. The networks know that if TV is too annoying, people won't be as willing to watch (while we're on the topic of being too annoying, I wonder if they know that these constant "ad bugs", like "CRAP TV SHOW / ALL NEW EPISODE / TUESDAY 8/7C / [network logo]", are an annoying pain to look at?).

IMO, all programming shown on network TV (infomercials, commercials, normal programming) should become 16x9 ratio SD or HD. The networks, if they were to collaborate, would have more than enough pull to convince providers: "You want to air programming on our network after [insert date here]? It had better be in 16x9." This switchover would be akin to what Britain's broadcasters did when digital OTA TV started to become popular. Most modern SD cameras and editing systems allow switching between 4x3 or 16x9 aspect ratio 720x480i. Going 16x9 doesn't have to mean remaining 4x3 safe, but it can mean that, depending on what the individual content provider desires for cable networks.

The two flies in the ointment:

1. What date to have this all-16x9 switch? I suggest 1/1/2010; it has a nice enough ring to it for viewers, that it should be very easy for those with CECBs to remember to switch over to the new format via the box's menu. In addition, if the warning were given within the next month, it gives the content providers about a year and a half in warning time, which should be more than enough time for content providers to work with (especially TV ad agencies).

2. What happens to super-legacy programming, especially infomercials? Best off, the networks and/or stations don't air them. But, if they're still aired, perhaps the station could insert color sidebars akin to what WUSA-DT does when they show SD clips on their HD newscast. Or, these programs could be stretched to fit the 16x9 ratio, although many here will not agree with this option.

Until the network logos go back to the 16x9 area, they should do something similar to WUSA-DT does for its local news: Have an "HD" logo to the right of the main logo that wouldn't be seen in the 4x3-safe area after overscan is applied to the image, like with most legacy TVs. Also, the main part of the logos should be pushed as far towards the right edge of the "overscan-proof" area of a 4x3 tube TV without touching; nobody will care about the lack of symmetry between the right side and the bottom (note how the CW logo is currently so symmetrically placed). A good example of this is the local Fox 5 affiliate (WTTG) logo during the news. Even though it's on the left side, not the right, it nevertheless pushes the limit of the left side overscan region, but doesn't overstep it; nor does it push the bottom.

Why we even need to see the CBS logo is beyond me anyway. It is annoying on shows such as The Early Show saying "more to come on this CBS station". Err, guess what? We don't have a "CBS station" here. Watermarking really is getting out of hand.



Slightly off-topic, but I'm a little curious as to why a network morning show like "The Early Show" would even be aired on a regular broadcast outlet there or anywhere else outside of the USA, if not being carried on a CBS station that's being re-broadcast. It's not like we get any of the Australian morning shows here in the USA on regular OTA channels. Not to say that I wouldn't mind seeing an Australian or any other countries' morning show here. I just wouldn't expect it. More than likely I'd have to look for it somewhere online.

Ok, I understand what is obviously going on, however, what is being done is NOT the solution. Feed everyone the widescreen aspect ratio with the logo placed correctly. People are used to widescreen by now, DVD came out over 10 years ago. Lets move on with the switch and force those with old tvs to watch programming for widescreen. I mean its been 10 years for us to watch 4x3 programs on widescreen tvs.The problem is that 4:3 material will be windowboxed (postage stamp effect). That's especially bad for 4:3 commercials with a letterbox matte. AFD is a solution but there is little to no support by the broadcasters and equipment manufacturers. The automatic selection by AFD can be overridden, so 4:3 safe bugs will likely become common. HD only distribution may also be common for cable channels as well with the consumer STB doing the downconversion.

I suspect that part of this rush to HD only distribution by CBS is to free up bandwidth for the increase of HD NFL games.

I suspect that part of this rush to HD only distribution by CBS is to free up bandwidth for the increase of HD NFL games.

I guess we win both ways: more HD NFL and less problems in TV. I remember reading that CBS was dicontinuing the SD feed sometime this summer or fall. I hope to see other networks do this too. That way affiliates can have a dress rehearsal before they have to downconvert and there's no analog/SD feed to fall back on.

I remember reading that CBS was dicontinuing the SD feed sometime this summer or fall. .

It will be February 2009 at the earliest.

For the 4x3 Center cut feeds for SD cable or Sat LiL, Wonder what they are going to do about HD Ads with fine print/etc. that runs outside of 4x3 safe area?

For the 4x3 Center cut feeds for SD cable or Sat LiL, Wonder what they are going to do about HD Ads with fine print/etc. that runs outside of 4x3 safe area?
If it's anything like what happened on KASW when they were centercutting HD for the analog channel, the answer is "fail", which is why they switched to letterboxing HD shows on their analog channel.

The bug doesn't rotate to say "CBS HDTV" anymore.

The bug doesn't rotate to say "CBS HDTV" anymore.

That's a good thing!:D:D I find animated/rotating bugs very annoying. It's unnecessary overkill, like the new local FOX News bugs.

I tried watching CSI NY but the logo was in the 4:3 area. It was a huge distraction and the show was not good enough to overcome it. The solution is to assume everyone has an LCD or Plasma with no overscan and place it way to the lower right of the 16:9 screen, and then letterbox the 4:3 downconvert.

It is time to stop optimizing for the low-def format. Last Christmas I bought an HDTV for $199 so there is no excuse.

Also, is everyone blind? Compression artifacts are excessive but I don't see much hope in getting cable companies to double their bit rate. Maybe FIOS will put upward pressure on that.

For the 4x3 Center cut feeds for SD cable or Sat LiL, Wonder what they are going to do about HD Ads with fine print/etc. that runs outside of 4x3 safe area?

It's already happening. On our station, when an HD spot formatted for 16x9 runs, the text that runs past the 4x3 area is chopped off on the D* SD feed. At some point, I assume advertisers will complain ...

That is the thing -- they only care about the advertisers. Commercials do not have the CBS eyeball. But when the show comes back on, it is there. It is like they have total contempt for the viewers. Then again, I bet 99.99% of viewers do not care.

Then again, I bet 99.99% of viewers do not care.

nail on the head....thats the real problem....the unwashed masses as it were.

It's a transparent eye for christsakes!! Nowhere near as bad as NBC. Tonight they have the ad text to the right of the bug, instead of on top. Now THAT'S bad!!

I think people compare the HD they get to TV they used to get, and are happy it is an improvement. I compare the HD I get to what I know the camera-output is like, and think it is crap. With digital editing and transmission, there is no reason why we cannot have camera-output quality throughout the entire chain.

BTW I cannot hear the difference between MP3, MiniDisc, and CD. So when audiophiles say they are bad, I am suspicious if they can really tell or are just pretending to tell. But if they are anything like my perception of images, then I feel for them.

I am watching Grey's Anatomy and the ABC-HD logo is all the way to the right. It is much less annoying than the CBS. They could make it even better by lowering it as it is about 0.75 inches from the right edge of my 45 inch set but about 3 inches from the bottom. I am not sure why they did that.

I am watching Grey's Anatomy and the ABC-HD logo is all the way to the right. It is much less annoying than the CBS. They could make it even better by lowering it as it is about 0.75 inches from the right edge of my 45 inch set but about 3 inches from the bottom. I am not sure why they did that.
Even better, no ads!!!!

I am watching Grey's Anatomy and the ABC-HD logo is all the way to the right. It is much less annoying than the CBS. They could make it even better by lowering it as it is about 0.75 inches from the right edge of my 45 inch set but about 3 inches from the bottom. I am not sure why they did that.

The bug should be lowered and the "HD" part should be removed. Just the small, round ABC would do.

The ABC bug is odd where it is. They could lower it without worrying about overscan or anything getting clipped off. I don't think any TVs cut off that much:confused:

And for non-HD shows, get rid of that shiny, glassy "bubble" like bug and go back to the old, less noticeable ABC bug.

It seems like the logical, smart thing for the networks to do would be to send a "clean" feed of the show to other countries.

You would but apparently not. I would still prefer two watermarks to get the show in HD but one would make more sense. Stupid thing is that CBS watermarked it when it was only SD too so they seem determined to make us know who makes the show.

I'm assuming they don't have EVERY show CBS has at the same time.

It is still delayed to be here at 11:30pm - the Friday show is on Monday here due to the time differences.

If you watch shows online(CBS.com or ABC.com) you get a clutter free show

All our online shows are watermarked, usually worse than the FTA feed. You are right though about about HD being worse than ever. Crazy isn't it that newer technology and larger screens means more intrusion and less actual viewing area.

Slightly off-topic, but I'm a little curious as to why a network morning show like "The Early Show" would even be aired on a regular broadcast outlet there or anywhere else outside of the USA

Got me there, each of the three major networks carry a US morning show. Seven gets NBC Today, Nine has Good Morning America and now Ten puts on The CBS Early Show. Each watermarked (or solidmarked in the case of NBC and ABC) with their own branding.

It's not like we get any of the Australian morning shows here in the USA on regular OTA channels.

I guess they figure there are more than enough US residents here or people with family/friends in the States to warrant the showing. As for Australian morning shows, you really aren't missing much. I am not sure if they are viewable online either. Also, back to the topic at hand, all graphics are 4:3 safe on these local shows also. 16:9 HD with SD graphics on one *shudder* and 4:3 safe zones.

Then again, I bet 99.99% of viewers do not care.

You got it there, I notice them and they annoy me yet everyone else says "water what now?". What is the point then? To annoy some while others don't notice? Does brand recognition really work when it comes to watermarks? If I ran a network I would use the "watermark free" as an advertising campaign.

They could make it even better by lowering it as it is about 0.75 inches from the right edge of my 45 inch set

I would actually prefer they take it 2m right and down. Yep, that's it... a bit futher... further... further... Perfect! Gone.

My only guess is, it seems the reason the network bugs are being moved into the 4:3 area is for stations that down convert the 16:9 HD feed to center cut 4:3 and or people with OTA tuners who watch 16:9 programming center cut on 4:3 TVs so the logo is never off the viewable area.

My only guess is, it seems the reason the network bugs are being moved into the 4:3 area is for stations that down convert the 16:9 HD feed to center cut 4:3 and or people with OTA tuners who watch 16:9 programming center cut on 4:3 TVs so the logo is never off the viewable area.


No need to guess...As previously posted, it's because DirecTv and Dish are starting to use the OTA HD feeds centercut and downconverted to feed their current SD subs. They are ending reception of the NTSC feeds before February as they can't switch the whole country overnight.

So why can't the networks just put it in the contract that DirectTV and Dish have to regenerate a new watermark for their low-def viewers (I object to calling it 'standard definition' as that is a bit like when people call normal capacity pistol magazines 'high capacity.')

HD is normal now. What used to be SD is now LD.

So why can't the networks just put it in the contract that DirectTV and Dish have to regenerate a new watermark for their low-def viewers .

Because they don't want others deciding when and where to insert logos.
Besides, it would cost them a fortune to do that for all the LIL's the carry.

Noticed that on Tonight, the transparent peacock was 4:3 safe on the left bottom, but with ad text. These bugs are less obnoxous on static programs like Tonight than on sports or drama. However, as others have commented, we're going to have to live with this situation for some years (until there's less 4:3 programming and 4:3 TVs have all died)....all because most folks simply don't care.

The Tonight Show almost never has the ad-bug. I think it's something with Jay Leno. Maybe if more shows would speak up this disgusting trend would end.

I could live with the 4:3 safe bug, that part doesn't bother me too much. But that's it. Once they start adding ads that now look like they are "in the middle of the screen", then I'm pissed. I liked the way Leno looked. The bug seems smaller and lower down on the screen. But once Conan came on with that HUGE ad, :eek:

Well, I understand the reason they are doing it, but I think it looks completely stupid, it looks abnormal, as if something is not right with the image. It's very distracting. Heck, why not just superimpose a giant transparent bug on the whole image, to me, that's about what that 4x3 positioning amounts to.

What the hell, CBS!!! You can go bug-free and ad/snipe free for #$@&*!@ golf but not for something good like one of your primetime dramas?

KFMB-DT San Diego has the 4:3 safe bug now.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3125/snapshot20080524151743zx9.th.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20080524151743zx9.jpg)

They ought to just move it to the absolute center of the screen and get these incremental moves over with.

That is the thing -- they only care about the advertisers. Commercials do not have the CBS eyeball. But when the show comes back on, it is there. It is like they have total contempt for the viewers. Then again, I bet 99.99% of viewers do not care.

and if that .1% don't bother telling CBS how they feel then it may as well be 100%.

With digital editing and transmission, there is no reason why we cannot have camera-output quality throughout the entire chain.Except for a little reality called bandwidth.
That is the thing -- they only care about the advertisers. Commercials do not have the CBS eyeball. But when the show comes back on, it is there. It is like they have total contempt for the viewers. Then again, I bet 99.99% of viewers do not care.Ads=Revenue, Shows=Expenditure. No one brands commercials.
So why can't the networks just put it in the contract that DirectTV and Dish have to regenerate a new watermark for their low-def viewersNetwork bugs are added at the network level. D*, E* and cablecos carry stations.
HD is normal now. What used to be SD is now LD.Most still watch 4:3 SD.

I could live with the 4:3 safe bug, that part doesn't bother me too much. But that's it. Once they start adding ads that now look like they are "in the middle of the screen", then I'm pissed. I liked the way Leno looked. The bug seems smaller and lower down on the screen. But once Conan came on with that HUGE ad, :eek:I think NBC has been the only network to use on-screen promotions during a show for something other than another show. They have used it to promote Universal movies. NBC and CW have been the worst as far as adding static text promotions above the bug.

You would but apparently not. I would still prefer two watermarks to get the show in HD but one would make more sense. Stupid thing is that CBS watermarked it when it was only SD too so they seem determined to make us know who makes the show.

We don't have 16:9 SD here, so if you are getting a watermarked 16:9 show from america it has been downconverted from our HD channel. All of our true SD is 4:3. (there are a few shows that air in 4:3 on the SD channel, but air 16:9 upconverted to HD on the HD channel even though they are sourced in 480i/p. I think fox and PBS are the only channels doing this)

I think we should all feel lucky about where our channel bugs are. In the UK they are in the upper left corner of the 4:3 area, usually have some color to them, and they are there even on commercials. Then if you have satellite you have the constant reminder that the red button on your remote "does something" by displaying a red dot in the bottom corner of your screen nearly all the time. Also, like to see a tiny pic of what you're watching in the upper corner of the screen while flipping through your guide? Or at least if you can't see it, you can still hear it? Not on satellite in the UK! They play seasonal music and no video of the channel you are watching. Shows are not consistent on what channels they are on or what times they are on and the production values of pretty much everything is sub-par. Oh yes, nearly everything in the UK is 16:9 but 4:3 safe even though they use auto-switching of the aspect ratio AND everything is sent out anamorphic. We've got it really good over here that bug placement is a big deal for us.

That is correct, this is being prompted mostly by DirecTv and Echostar now taking the LIL HD feeds and feeding a downconvert to their SD subs. This will quickly happen in almost every market, as they can't do the entire country overnight. And, the cable guys will follow suit as well. The other networks will soon follow suit. So there ya have it.

This is already happening at the source (i.e. the local broadcaster) in several markets. One known example: in Charlottesville VA on the local ABC, CBS, and Fox stations (which are all owned by the same company).

This is already happening at the source (i.e. the local broadcaster) in several markets. One known example: in Charlottesville VA on the local ABC, CBS, and Fox stations (which are all owned by the same company).

Yes, but Not always at the local broadcaster. Usually at the LCF (or local collection facility). Directv and Echostar have joined forces in this area to reduce costs and facility duplication. The LCF's are quite impressive based on what I have seen. It's actually already happening in more markets than people are aware of. Supposedly, Charlotte was to be done May 7th, But I have not been able to confirm that.

and if that .1% don't bother telling CBS how they feel then it may as well be 100%.
What is the best way to contact CBS about that? I have no faith in going thru my local affiliate.

Bugs and other graphics are moving to the 4:3 safe area as part of the analog shut-off.

Stations and broadcast networks have had the luxury of two signals since the advent of DT. The digital side could be optimized for 16:9 viewing without affecting the analog side. Decisions about graphics and letterboxing have been made separately for the digital and analog feeds.

That comes to an end next February when the analog transmitters are turned off. There will only be one program stream and it will have to work for both types of TVs - widescreen HD sets and older 4:3 analog TVs. HD viewers would prefer to see content produced for 16:9 and letterboxed on SD. But, it appears the networks and local stations have opted for center cut on SD, meaning the HD content has to be 4:3 safe. Cable companies and satellite services are promising their analog customers that nothing will change for them in this transition, which also means preserving the traditional 4:3 image.

NBC made the switch on its bugs on May 22. NBC says program content will be produced 4:3 safe this fall, which I think means no more 14:9 letterboxing for primetime shows on the SD side, although I am not absolutely sure about the letterboxing part.

Is this switch to a "center cut" 4:3 analog picture, from a digital 16:9 source, likely to reduce picture quality on high quality non-HDTVs? I could swear that some of my "analog" cable channels suddenly look like they went thru a lousy A/D conversion.

Is this switch to a "center cut" 4:3 analog picture, from a digital 16:9 source, likely to reduce picture quality on high quality non-HDTVs?The switch to digital transmission is likely to improve picture quality, if anything, although it depends on how the local source gets to the cable provider. If it's off-air, quality may improve. But, many stations use fiber feeds to cable head-ends, in which case there probably wouldn't be any change at all.
I could swear that some of my "analog" cable channels suddenly look like they went thru a lousy A/D conversion.That's not related to the analog shut-off because it hasn't happened yet. Stations are still transmitting on both their analog and digital channels. Graphics are getting moved around now. But, that's all.

Look where the damn thing is today on the ND/UCLA bb game. Ridiculus....

The EYE is watching you.

Where was it today?

Where did they put it today that makes it "ridiculous"?

I just saw highlights from the game on ESPN and didn't see it anywhere other than the score bar.

???????????????

Where did they put it today that makes it "ridiculous"?

It was about 1/4 from the right edge of the screen and about 1/4 from the top.

Same position in the Purdue/Illinois game today. I guess this is normal huh?

I just saw highlights from the game on ESPN and didn't see it anywhere other than the score bar.

You would not see it on the the highlights from ESPN. The highlights are pulled from the backhaul before the bug is added by CBS in New York.

On my TV it's on the right 3rd of my TV almost in the center of the pic.

Jeff

The CBS eye took a quick tour of the bottom of the screen during CSI here. It shot off to the far left in one frame, then shot off to the far right and split into a 4:3 safe one in the next frame, before going to back to the normal spot.

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/eye.jpg

I guess someone was fiddling with this by accident.

It was going in and out of consciousness during CSI:Miami Monday night. The shorts times it was off the screen it was very nice.

The CBS eye took a quick tour of the bottom of the screen during CSI here. It shot off to the far left in one frame, then shot off to the far right and split into a 4:3 safe one in the next frame, before going to back to the normal spot.

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/eye.jpg

I guess someone was fiddling with this by accident.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Did the bug really look like that on screen? If only the snipe generator would crash too!!

Looks like something is wrong with the bug inserter. I've seen the same thing here on the local analog ABC. Sometimes when the affiliate bug comes on after commercials, the bug flickers or jumps around the screen. Last Sunday during one show, the affiliate bug was "wiping" across the scren until it disappeared. :D

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Did the bug really look like that on screen? If only the snipe generator would crash too!!

Yes it did. For one frame it appeared to the left, in the next it mutated into two on the right (as seen in the screen cap), and went back to its regular annoying spot in the third. It was only two frames so it was barely noticeable. I'm surprised I saw it.

Yes it did. For one frame it appeared to the left, in the next it mutated into two on the right (as seen in the screen cap), and went back to its regular annoying spot in the third. It was only two frames so it was barely noticeable. I'm surprised I saw it.

And this was during CSI? I downloaded a BT of CSI. About what time did it happen?

And this was during CSI? I downloaded a BT of CSI. About what time did it happen?

It was when they were interrogating the husband about the toothpaste, saying his wife got boxes of them for free.

It was about 1/4 from the right edge of the screen and about 1/4 from the top.
I checked it out today and that's where they usually put it near the end of sports programs when they are showing highlights and celebrations and stuff. I guess it's too much to only have 1 logo bug on the same side of the screen below it on the scoreboard. What do they think the other one is too small to read? If so then the scoreboard is too small.

Why can't the people that make these idiotic decisions be the ones to lose their jobs instead of other unfortunate people?

Why can't the people that make these idiotic decisions be the ones to lose their jobs instead of other unfortunate people?

Why can't the person who made and gave the greenlight to the CBS snipe with the "bright streak of light and lens effect" be sentenced to the death penalty? :D:D:D

Why can't the person who made and gave the greenlight to the CBS snipe with the "bright streak of light and lens effect" be sentenced to the death penalty? :D:D:D
Haha, along with all of the other people form the other channels that have those nasty snipes and stuff.

Holy s---!!! I don't know if it happened all night(as I wasn't watching) but when I turned on ABC's Academy Awards after 11pm, there is no bug on screen at all, SD or HD!!! SD only flahsed the local bug after breaks, no network bug.

Holy s---!!! I don't know if it happened all night(as I wasn't watching) but when I turned on ABC's Academy Awards after 11pm, there is no bug on screen at all, SD or HD!!! SD only flahsed the local bug after breaks, no network bug.


Standard. No bug on the Oscars. Been that way for a long time.