We already know that the 5080's and the 4280's are pretty much done. We have known that the 150's stock has been bad as well and it will not get better, just found out from Pioneer that the same has happened on the 110's.
With new models not out until summer what are the options now?
From Pioneer I only see 6010FD and 5010FD at the moment. I wish it was not like this :(
Oh Forgot the 1150HD which is out there for sure.

Roman, yes it's sadly true that Pioneer's forecasts are far lower then the demand. So all models are in very short supply. PRO-150FDs trickle in once a month. We order 200 and get 10 pieces delivered.

The only products we can get and even those are limited are PRO-1150FD, PDP-5010FD and PDP-6010FD. Next month we'll get a few PRO-110FDs.

We stockpiled PRO950HDs and PRO-1150HDs and have a few PRO-150FD so we have some Kuro's to sell, but the very tight supply makes it hard for customers and retailers to fill the demand.

Sounds like Nintendo and their Wii gaming platform.

Not sure how Pioneer, with all their reported financial issues due to not meeting sales forecasts, intends to make money without selling product. A shame for all involved.

Glad I got my set in the nick of time...

Sounds like Nintendo and their Wii gaming platform.

Not sure how Pioneer, with all their reported financial issues due to not meeting sales forecasts, intends to make money without selling product. A shame for all involved.

Glad I got my set in the nick of time...

Yeah really.... my 5080 has been damned great. Glad I got mine too!

Perhaps Pioneer just has a great way of clearing out old stock. It would not surprise me if the new models came out a little early (and a little cheaper) once the old models are sold.

DelJ




We already know that the 5080's and the 4280's are pretty much done. We have known that the 150's stock has been bad as well and it will not get better, just found out from Pioneer that the same has happened on the 110's.
With new models not out until summer what are the options now?
From Pioneer I only see 6010FD and 5010FD at the moment. I wish it was not like this :(
Oh Forgot the 1150HD which is out there for sure.

Perhaps Pioneer just has a great way of clearing out old stock. It would not surprise me if the new models came out a little early (and a little cheaper) once the old models are sold.

DelJ

Definitely a great thought, but unfortunately, not at all likely.

-Robert

Definitely a great thought, but unfortunately, not at all likely.

-Robert

Robert,
I saw on a different thread that you did a demo on the pioneer 9G's. I was wondering, do you still have the 9g? wanna sell it?? lol

We still have a few 4280's and 5080's at my place of work. A lot of people aren't so A/V minded here I guess. lol They want the cheap TVs. T_T

I just copied my own post over from the Kuro Pictures thread...hopefully will spur on some conversation in the right thread...



I understand that Pioneer is either helping people buy up the last of the 8G inventory or making people drool in anticipation for the 9Gs, but my point is as of right now, I am estimating based on talking to people I know, and the many people here that the 5080s are almost out and it's February. So lets assume, that they run out at the VERY VERY LATEST in April...so then there is no entry level Pio plasma for a consumer to buy had they been considering one...

Now if the next generation isn't even out until July or August, that is two months of time where there is NO SALES occurring for Pioneer in that department. Now it doesn't take a business mind to figure that wasting 2 months on product transition is still a waste. I'm not saying introduce the 9Gs the day after the 8Gs are out, but why wait 1/6 of a year?? That is a long time.

As a consumer myself, I have been waiting myself silly for a new TV, and I am just waiting for the 9Gs to come out, and if there are plenty of people out there like me...why waste the 2 months when they could have my money now. This is just simple business sense...also why make all our wonderful sponsors who rely on turnover to sit idle for 2 months as the 8Gs are MIA and the 9Gs are just waiting in the wings?

Robert,
I saw on a different thread that you did a demo on the pioneer 9G's. I was wondering, do you still have the 9g? wanna sell it?? lolHe went to a demo of the 9gs at CES. He doesn't own one. He reported better blacks, and MORE AWESOMENESS!

He went to a demo of the 9gs at CES. He doesn't own one. He reported better blacks, and MORE AWESOMENESS!

MOAR AWESOMENESS FTW!!!!!!1!!!!onE!!!!!!!

lol

I understand that Pioneer is either helping people buy up the last of the 8G inventory or making people drool in anticipation for the 9Gs, but my point is as of right now, I am estimating based on talking to people I know, and the many people here that the 5080s are almost out and it's February. So lets assume, that they run out at the VERY VERY LATEST in April...so then there is no entry level Pio plasma for a consumer to buy had they been considering one...

Now if the next generation isn't even out until July or August, that is two months of time where there is NO SALES occurring for Pioneer in that department. Now it doesn't take a business mind to figure that wasting 2 months on product transition is still a waste. I'm not saying introduce the 9Gs the day after the 8Gs are out, but why wait 1/6 of a year?? That is a long time.

As a consumer myself, I have been waiting myself silly for a new TV, and I am just waiting for the 9Gs to come out, and if there are plenty of people out there like me...why waste the 2 months when they could have my money now. This is just simple business sense...also why make all our wonderful sponsors who rely on turnover to sit idle for 2 months as the 8Gs are MIA and the 9Gs are just waiting in the wings?

Agreed: this is just a *bizarre* business strategy, to be charitable. I'm also questioning - along with many others - Pioneer abondoning the sub-50" and 768p markets.

Question for Roman and 'Dealer': I'm not sure you are comfortable sharing this info, but what percentage of your total 8G Kuro sales were 42" AND 50" 768p models?? I have to think it's a significant amount..??


Also: I'm just a simple mechanical engineer who freely admits he doesn't *really* understand how plasma TV's work in the first place, but I'm reasonably good with basic math, and I don't see why Pioneer couldn't very easily offer a 42" class TV with 1365x768 resolution based on their 1080p 60" glass structure. If they use that EXACT SAME PIXEL SIZE from the 1920x1080 60" size they already have, and just cut it down to 1365x768 pixels, they would have a TV that is just a hair larger than a typical 42" set at 42.6" diagonal. And it would have square pixels (unlike the 1024x768 sets) at what would seem to be to be very low development costs, since the cells have already been proven out on the larger model.

I just don't get it.

Same boat here.

I was ready to pull trigger on a 5080 and a 6010 and put together a consortium of other buyers all in to buy but stopped once I heard the rumors of the 9G specs (80% better black levels) and prices (1500 price drop). Doing mass if the 5020 comes out at MSRP 3500 as DNice has suggested we're looking at street pricing around 2700 or so or less.

In other words, the reason I'm waiting and my group is waiting is because we think a better T.V. is coming out at 1500 dollars less and for that it is worthwhile to wait til July.

I will be VERY upset if we pass on the 8Gs at the prices advertised right now especially the soon to be sold out 5080s only to find out that the MSRPs for the 9Gs are significantly higher.

When the heck is the 9G prices going to be announced?? If a summer release is planned, shouldn't some announcement be forthcoming soon???

Very strange business plan with panasonic right on there heels with new display that might have blacks on level of Kuros.Maybe they are going to blow us away in summer with the CES prototype release or at least something similar to recapture the lost months of no product.

...Doing mass if the 5020 comes out at MSRP 3500 as DNice has suggested we're looking at street pricing around 2700 or so or less.

...

When the heck is the 9G prices going to be announced?? If a summer release is planned, shouldn't some announcement be forthcoming soon???
Only other price prediction I came across was this one from Robert, who's a Pioneer dealer and has contacts very high up at Pioneer:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13132097#post13132097
I don't think Robert can reveal any more info than that though.

Kicks back, turns on his 150fd and just :D

Only other price prediction I came across was this one from Robert, who's a Pioneer dealer and has contacts very high up at Pioneer:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13132097#post13132097
I don't think Robert can reveal any more info than that though.He also posted the timeline of the models. Apparently they have many slim type models coming out.

If they are coming out with a larger screen size...say 75", I would think it's not an easy task and some retooling has to be done at the plant.

Also, the improved contrast may need other changes that the plant currently cannot handle. I expect that the factory was at full capacity and there is no room to gear up for newer models till there is room left over by getting the older models out of production.

I expect prices to be about the same or higher for the larger models.

Now, with the short supply of Pioneers. the Dealers more apt to stay at MSRP or really close. Since you know, Supply and Demand :)

For what its worth, Best Buy and Future Shop in Canada are both still selling the 5080 and have lowered the price a bit, so both have stock to move.

For what its worth, Best Buy and Future Shop in Canada are both still selling the 5080 and have lowered the price a bit, so both have stock to move.

Not the case here for sure.

Question for Roman and 'Dealer': I'm not sure you are comfortable sharing this info, but what percentage of your total 8G Kuro sales were 42" AND 50" 768p models?? I have to think it's a significant amount..??



No comment :cool:

I wish Pioneer would at least make some kind of press released so accurate decisions could be made. It's fine if the panels won't be out for a few months, but if they are running out of 8G panels, at least make some kind of information available.

I am debating between a 5080, 5010, or waiting it out. The wait is killing me, but it would be unfortunate if a "5020" is released, MSRPs for the same price as the 5010 AND there are no 5010s left.

That I'm gonna be kicking myself for not having bought a 5010 for a "good price." On the other hand, if a new model is better and cheaper, I'll be kicking myself for not waiting.

My biggest problem is I just don't understand why this has to be a game with Pioneer. All the other big companies made some announcements at CES concerning 2008 models. As this is a significant $ purchase for most consumers, let us make an informed decision. Not a game where you don't what's coming out next AND your current supply is running out. Purchasing a high-end plasma shouldn't be a gamble IMHO.

Sorry for the rant. It's just the wait that is getting to me.

My biggest problem is I just don't understand why this has to be a game with Pioneer.

The game is that Pioneer is losing the game...as indicated in their recent quarterly financial statement (as noted on this forum, I believe), Pioneer plasma TV sales are falling while the entire plasma category is growing.

I beleve that Pioneer is in deep discussion on how to get back in the game...Panasonic, Samsung, even LG are winning the game...assuming that the game is sales and profits.

They probably haven't released information because they haven't quite figured out the information...Pioneer must close the price gap between themselves and the competition...but at what cost...while their product superiority may exist versus the competition, they must realize with the recent drop in retail sales prices come a serious increase in sales activity.

Oh, to be a fly on the Pioneer wall...I believe that they are seriously sweating the recent plasma sales successes of their competition...they invented the game and now others are winning it...Ouch!

Is that why the underestimated the demand for their products?

Is that why the underestimated the demand for their products?

No, it's why they had to dramatically drop their prices in order to avoid another lousy quarterly report...Wall Street is unforgiving..one bad quarter can be an aberration...two bad quarters is a trend...they realized that their products 1) weren't a hit with early Holiday shoppers 2) 1080p was the new buzz and had consumer appeal 3) better to sell cheap then not sell at all...IMO.

If Pioneer is content being a high-end niche product, so be it...ultimately, financial succeess is best achieved reaching the masses...call it critical ma$$.

BMAN1212, not sure I agree. Pioneer did and is selling a ton of 768p panels. We recommend them to most of our customers as the image quality is better than most 1080p competitors.

Pioneer lowered the price as many CE companies do after release to make a more compelling offer. Yes, they wanted to move more of the products they have more production on, but that's the only reason I can determine.

So they made a great TV even more affordable and increased sales on items they can delivery.

-Robert

When Fujitsu got out of the market Pioneer was hit with all of the demands and they could not keep up I am sure they will not make the same mistakes. I know companies that are in the higher end and do very well.

Under-estimating demand is separate from a lack of supply IMO. One is due to manufacturing capabilities, the other to market forces.

The Pioneer puzzle just doesn't add up in my books. Every corporation is out there to make money. How you achieve this is debatable. In Pioneer's case, due you want to chase the niche market, the value market, do it through sheer volume etc... But it cannot be debated that Pioneer like everyone else wants to MAKE MONEY.

Having said that, running out of TVs to sell (if this is true) and not having anything to fill the void is just bad business. You are in the business to make money, to do this, you need to sell something. I can't think of any case where a company simply has no product to sell.

I believe something will change, and that change will happen soon. Pioneer will either make an annoucement, or this supposed TV drought will turn out not to be true. I really don't know, but I do know what won't happen, and that is that Pioneer sells all their TVs AND they make no annoucement of what's next.

Agreed: this is just a *bizarre* business strategy, to be charitable. I'm also questioning - along with many others - Pioneer abondoning the sub-50" and 768p markets.

Question for Roman and 'Dealer': I'm not sure you are comfortable sharing this info, but what percentage of your total 8G Kuro sales were 42" AND 50" 768p models?? I have to think it's a significant amount..??


Also: I'm just a simple mechanical engineer who freely admits he doesn't *really* understand how plasma TV's work in the first place, but I'm reasonably good with basic math, and I don't see why Pioneer couldn't very easily offer a 42" class TV with 1365x768 resolution based on their 1080p 60" glass structure. If they use that EXACT SAME PIXEL SIZE from the 1920x1080 60" size they already have, and just cut it down to 1365x768 pixels, they would have a TV that is just a hair larger than a typical 42" set at 42.6" diagonal. And it would have square pixels (unlike the 1024x768 sets) at what would seem to be to be very low development costs, since the cells have already been proven out on the larger model.

I just don't get it.Not really a bizarre business strategy...they either underestimated demand for the 8G's or planned for the 9G's to be ready sooner than they will be. As for Pioneer continuing to make a 42" 768p set....I can understand why they won't do it. First of all, there is way too much price competition in the 42" size...and now that Fujitsu has left the business, Pioneer can concentrate on getting more high-end buyers who will want 50" and above. Also it wouldn't make good business sense for Pioneer to try to market a 768p panel right beside everyone elses 1080p sets and their marketing campaigns of "true HD" and such...which implies that anything less than 1080p is not "true HD". The entire industry is moving to 1080p...I'm betting you won't find many (if any) new models from the major CE makers at anything less than 1080p towards the end of 08.

Before I post on this thread, what exactly is the definition of the forbidden price talk.
Can I mention MSRP prices? Can I mention I purchased at x dollars below MSRP without mentioning the retailer? I don't want to get into trouble here.

Before I post on this thread, what exactly is the definition of the forbidden price talk.
Can I mention MSRP prices? Can I mention I purchased at x dollars below MSRP without mentioning the retailer? I don't want to get into trouble here.

MSRP only here are the rules
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/announcement.php?f=167&a=119

After starting this thread Pioneer came up with a shipment of the 150's to various dealers but like Robert mentioned it is very BAD as I posted in the title :(

What I just don't get is the huge difference in price between their non-1080P and the P sets. With the announcement of the new 1080P (5020) MSRP-ing at what their 5080 did, are they gonna lower the price of the 5010?
That's where I think they're missing the boat.
$5-600 for a "P" set is an option, but $2000 puts it out of reach for most buyers .

Max.....what are you talking about with the "P" set? Are you referring to 1080p vs 768p?

What I just don't get is the huge difference in price between their non-1080P and the P sets. With the announcement of the new 1080P (5020) MSRP-ing at what their 5080 did, are they gonna lower the price of the 5010?
That's where I think they're missing the boat.
$5-600 for a "P" set is an option, but $2000 puts it out of reach for most buyers .

Are you talking about the new models? As far as I know, there has not been any official announcement about prices or sizes. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Under-estimating demand is separate from a lack of supply IMO. One is due to manufacturing capabilities, the other to market forces.

The Pioneer puzzle just doesn't add up in my books. Every corporation is out there to make money. How you achieve this is debatable. In Pioneer's case, due you want to chase the niche market, the value market, do it through sheer volume etc... But it cannot be debated that Pioneer like everyone else wants to MAKE MONEY.

Having said that, running out of TVs to sell (if this is true) and not having anything to fill the void is just bad business. You are in the business to make money, to do this, you need to sell something. I can't think of any case where a company simply has no product to sell.

I believe something will change, and that change will happen soon. Pioneer will either make an annoucement, or this supposed TV drought will turn out not to be true. I really don't know, but I do know what won't happen, and that is that Pioneer sells all their TVs AND they make no annoucement of what's next.

:eek:"You are in the business to make money, to do this, you need to sell something. I can't think of any case where a company simply has no product to sell.":(


Well... The United States government is a business,and the last time I checked:mad:,they sell squat...:rolleyes:

:eek:"You are in the business to make money, to do this, you need to sell something. I can't think of any case where a company simply has no product to sell.":(


Well... The United States government is a business,and the last time I checked:mad:,they sell squat...:rolleyes:

I don't want this to be a hijack, but the US government does sell many things, one of which is fear, in which they indirectly profit :cool:
Also, no, they are not a business.

Hello there,

I was checking out Best Buy online trying to see if any local Best Buys had a 60" Pioneer Plasma and when doing a search of store availability.....none of the stores have them..locally. I know I cannot check out the availability of the Elite version, since it just says that to go the Magnolia store or something like that. I also checked within a 100 miles of here and none of the BB has the 60" display.

One wonders if BB just keeps them in a warehouse for delivery only and not in the stores? Or are they really sold out? or has Pioneer modified their manufacturing process to fix the "buzz" issue and need to ramp up their manufacturing output?

Many questions- few answers......

Hello there,

I was checking out Best Buy online trying to see if any local Best Buys had a 60" Pioneer Plasma and when doing a search of store availability.....none of the stores have them..locally. I know I cannot check out the availability of the Elite version, since it just says that to go the Magnolia store or something like that. I also checked within a 100 miles of here and none of the BB has the 60" display.

One wonders if BB just keeps them in a warehouse for delivery only and not in the stores? Or are they really sold out? or has Pioneer modified their manufacturing process to fix the "buzz" issue and need to ramp up their manufacturing output?

Many questions- few answers......

Based on my experience with BB, they do not stock the Pioneers at the store. It seems everytime you want one, they have to order it from the warehouse.

Hello there,

I was checking out Best Buy online trying to see if any local Best Buys had a 60" Pioneer Plasma and when doing a search of store availability.....none of the stores have them..locally. I know I cannot check out the availability of the Elite version, since it just says that to go the Magnolia store or something like that. I also checked within a 100 miles of here and none of the BB has the 60" display.

One wonders if BB just keeps them in a warehouse for delivery only and not in the stores? Or are they really sold out? or has Pioneer modified their manufacturing process to fix the "buzz" issue and need to ramp up their manufacturing output?

Many questions- few answers......

I would just give them a call and check.

I wonder if they even stock them in their own warehouse? because maybe when someone orders one they come from Pioneer's warehouse directly to the store that ordered one?

Just adding that starting Sunday Feb. 24th that Best Buy has the 5080 on sale again in their flyer.

I wonder if they even stock them in their own warehouse? because maybe when someone orders one they come from Pioneer's warehouse directly to the store that ordered one?

Just adding that starting Sunday Feb. 24th that Best Buy has the 5080 on sale again in their flyer.

I check most of them and they were out of stock here.

I spoke with Tweeter, just outside of Boston, yesterday, they had a limited amount of the 110 FD and the 150 FD like one extra per store. The salesman said they expected a decent amount in a shipment due by mid March. I didn't ask about the 5080 or the 1150. Still on the fence myself, as of today my 4 1/2 year old Samsung DLP is still working but is showing signs of color wheel/light engine failure. If it can hang in for awhile I might wait for the new models as well as a Blu-ray 2.0 player. Fingers crossed.

JTMav

The game is that Pioneer is losing the game...as indicated in their recent quarterly financial statement (as noted on this forum, I believe), Pioneer plasma TV sales are falling while the entire plasma category is growing.

I beleve that Pioneer is in deep discussion on how to get back in the game...Panasonic, Samsung, even LG are winning the game...assuming that the game is sales and profits.

They probably haven't released information because they haven't quite figured out the information...Pioneer must close the price gap between themselves and the competition...but at what cost...while their product superiority may exist versus the competition, they must realize with the recent drop in retail sales prices come a serious increase in sales activity.

Oh, to be a fly on the Pioneer wall...I believe that they are seriously sweating the recent plasma sales successes of their competition...they invented the game and now others are winning it...Ouch!

I agree.

Is that why the underestimated the demand for their products?

I disagree.

There's definitely something wrong but it's not Pioneer underestimating the demand for their products. The MSRP of the Elites and the 5010 and 6010 are beyond the price range of the average consumer. If Pioneer wants get back in the sales game, they need to lower the price of their 1080p 50" and 60" displays.

Most people don't care about better black levels. If you're an average consumer and you look at two flat panels, of the same size, side by side in showroom, you're not going to see a difference that's worth paying several $1,000 more for.

If you retailers have an explanation for the figures below, other than Pioneer "underestimated the demand for their products", I would like to hear it.

Plasma Market Grows 62% Pioneer Declines 39%
By DigiTimes | Sunday | 03/02/2008

As Hitachi, Philips and Fujitsu quit the plasma TV market comes news that the flat screen technology is surging, with vendors like Panasonic, Samsung and LG recording record sales according to research company Display Search.
Plasma display shipments built upon record third quarter shipments to reach another new record in the fourth quarter of 2007, exceeding forecasts by rising 42% on quarter and 62% on year to almost 4.4 million units, according to DisplaySearch.

Panasonic grew their share by 48%, LG by 113% Samsung by 95%. However Pioneer, despite massive advertising declined by 39%.....

CHART (http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/Plasma/W3N2M3N9?page=3)

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/Plasma/W3N2M3N9?page=1

For those that don't know "Matsushita" is Panasonic.

Guys I called my local BBY and had them check wharehouse stock for our district, there's currently 168 5080HD's in the Ardmore OK wharehouse.

Question for Roman and 'Dealer': I'm not sure you are comfortable sharing this info, but what percentage of your total 8G Kuro sales were 42" AND 50" 768p models?? I have to think it's a significant amount..??


Also: I'm just a simple mechanical engineer who freely admits he doesn't *really* understand how plasma TV's work in the first place, but I'm reasonably good with basic math, and I don't see why Pioneer couldn't very easily offer a 42" class TV with 1365x768 resolution based on their 1080p 60" glass structure. If they use that EXACT SAME PIXEL SIZE from the 1920x1080 60" size they already have, and just cut it down to 1365x768 pixels, they would have a TV that is just a hair larger than a typical 42" set at 42.6" diagonal. And it would have square pixels (unlike the 1024x768 sets) at what would seem to be to be very low development costs, since the cells have already been proven out on the larger model.

I just don't get it.

According to some market figures, I recall something like 20% of their Plasma sales in 2007 are FULL HD sets and approx 40% of TV sales are from 42". The problem is that they are not selling enough FULL HD sets which has a higher margin. Of course the FULL HD Kuro were introduced in latter half of 2007 so the figures may not reflect the whole KURO sales breakdown.

Interesting enough, Panasonic has a 1366x768 42" plasma specially made for the China market because the minimum requirement for a TV with HD logo has to have at least 720p native resolution in China. They accomplished this using same method you've just described by cutting the 42" panel from the 58" panel glass. Why these are not available else where also puzzles me. Of course the manufacturing wastage could be higher if the 58" are cut to 42" panels.

I believe Pioneer will focus their Plasma technology on larger size where margins are better. I will not be surprise to see Pioneer branded FULL HD 46/42/37 Elite LCD coming out in 2008 to repace the 42" plasma (Using Sharp panels and Pioneer video processing technology). The 50"+ 9G Plasma could get a face lift or some minor improvement in contrast+brightness "KURO II" but not a significant technology breakthrough like the KURO. The major effort would be the 10G superslim 10 lumin tech Plasma for 2009. After all making money is the first priority for any business.

Guys I called my local BBY and had them check wharehouse stock for our district, there's currently 168 5080HD's in the Ardmore OK wharehouse.

... and that is just ONE BB warehouse. I'm not sure about other smaller dealers, but it seems BB still has plenty of Pio panels nationwide. I would imagine the situation is similar to other big box stores.

I met with another smaller Pioneer dealer today as well. He said he speaks directly with a Pioneer US rep who is high up in the chain (I forget the exact title). I asked if he could try and find out anything he can about 9G panels and he said he would pass along the msg. If I here anything I'll let the forum know.

Please do eXclusive.

The 9G is around the corner but still that is a full 6 months or half year away. Depending on price, I'm not sure if it is worth it to wait that long.

The 5080 is looking very attractive as a bedroom T.V. I was planning on waiting things out and putting a 9G 5020 in my bedroom and then waiting some more to put a 10G in the living room but now, according to Robert we're looking at Fall of 2009 for 70 inch 10G??? That's a LOT of waiting and a lot of unknowns.

Dennis

If you retailers have an explanation for the figures below, other than Pioneer "underestimated the demand for their products", I would like to hear it.
Plasma Market Grows 62% Pioneer Declines 39%
By DigiTimes | Sunday | 03/02/2008

As Hitachi, Philips and Fujitsu quit the plasma TV market comes news that the flat screen technology is surging, with vendors like Panasonic, Samsung and LG recording record sales according to research company Display Search.
Plasma display shipments built upon record third quarter shipments to reach another new record in the fourth quarter of 2007, exceeding forecasts by rising 42% on quarter and 62% on year to almost 4.4 million units, according to DisplaySearch.

Panasonic grew their share by 48%, LG by 113% Samsung by 95%. However Pioneer, despite massive advertising declined by 39%.....
Underestimating demand and/or having supply bottlenecks is sufficient. As a reminder, market share is a ratio, so you may be growing sales significantly, just not as fast as your competitors, and still lose share. Also note that share can be measured in terms of unit volume or dollar volume, and the pictures each method portrays can vary dramatically.

Bill

Maybe if Pioneer followed Panasonic's business model & started mass-producing PDPs in Mexico or China, to reduce costs, they could eliminate their traditional winter/spring supply gaps. Unfortunately, their product quality would suffer and be reduced the lower common denominator of Panasonic/Samsung PDPs.

Anyone who has followed the FP display market during the past few years knows that Pioneer releases their next generation of PDPs during the summer/fall months and they all get "snapped up" soon after.

The good news for buyers is now that you have to wait until the 9G panels come out, when they do you will be richly rewarded with an opportunity to buy a PDP that reportedly provides the same leap forward w/performance that the 8Gs delivered versus their predecessors.

My advice is when the next generation of Pioneer PDPs is available...

Buy early & buy often.

Maybe if Pioneer followed Panasonic's business model & started mass-producing PDPs in Mexico or China, to reduce costs, they could eliminate their traditional winter/spring supply gaps. Unfortunately, their product quality would suffer and be reduced the lower common denominator of Panasonic/Samsung PDPs.

Your "theory" falls apart when a US assembled Pioneer TV contains Chinese sourced parts.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912837
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/Boxster/IMG_0809.jpg

Almost every consumer product has something that was produced in China. The point optivity was trying to make (and by no means am I backing anything he says) is that the location of where the product is assembled has a major factor on quality.

You can look at the automoble industry as a reference.

Name a tv that doesn't have some Chinese chips/boards in it. If not China, it would probably be Taiwan. It is odd the tv states on the back that it is assembled in the USA with Japan and USA components. At least my 5080 does. Perhaps if the board was assembled in Japan, but the chips, capacitors, etc were made in Taiwan or China they can still claim Japan.

The 50"+ 9G Plasma could get a face lift or some minor improvement in contrast+brightness "KURO II" but not a significant technology breakthrough like the KURO. The major effort would be the 10G superslim 10 lumin tech Plasma for 2009. After all making money is the first priority for any business.I can assure you that your comments on the 9Gs are completely wrong. There is nothing "minor" about the 9Gs.

I can assure you that your comments on the 9Gs are completely wrong. There is nothing "minor" about the 9Gs.

What have they changed for the 9 g's?

Almost every consumer product has something that was produced in China. The point optivity was trying to make (and by no means am I backing anything he says) is that the location of where the product is assembled has a major factor on quality.

You can look at the automoble industry as a reference.

He has made his point clear time and time again.

Now the reality of the situation is that you nor he cannot provide any data to back up the assertion that a Mexican assembled panel is of a lower quality than a Pomona,CA (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1800+W+Holt+Ave,+Pomona,+CA+91768,+USA&sa=X&oi=map&ct=title)assembled panel.

And in fact its seems (low quality?) Chinese parts may be affecting Pioneer quality regardless of who is installing the screws.

He has made his point clear time and time again.

Now the reality of the situation is that you nor he cannot provide any data to back up the assertion that a Mexican assembled panel is of a lower quality than a Pomona,CA (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1800+W+Holt+Ave,+Pomona,+CA+91768,+USA&sa=X&oi=map&ct=title)assembled panel.

And in fact its seems (low quality?) Chinese parts may be affecting Pioneer quality regardless of who is installing the screws.Sure I can. My first 2 37PX60u panels power supplies failed within the first 3 days of use. The third one was fine. Both my 42PX600u and 37PX60u had the purple snakes issue as well as the standard floating Panasonic blacks. I cannot attribute the floating blacks to the Mexican assembly, but perhaps I can attribute the purple snakes and power supply issues to that location. I've never had those issues, especially the power supply issue, with any of my Pioneer panels that were assembles in Cali (PDP-4340, PDP-5050, PRO-930, PRO-1130, PRO-1150).

What have they changed for the 9 g's?

Because of work, I don't have time to look up the posts that talk about all that's improved in the 9Gs. If no one goes into the details by mid next week, I'll do a search and put them here.

I still have my fingers crossed for a 75" 9G!

Sure I can. My first 2 37PX60u panels power supplies failed within the first 3 days of use. The third one was fine. Both my 42PX600u and 37PX60u had the purple snakes issue as well as the standard floating Panasonic blacks. I cannot attribute the floating blacks to the Mexican assembly, but perhaps I can attribute the purple snakes and power supply issues to that location. I've never had those issues, especially the power supply issue, with any of my Pioneer panels that were assembles in Cali (PDP-4340, PDP-5050, PRO-930, PRO-1130, PRO-1150).

How?
If a second power supply also failed its not likely the first was installed incorrectly.The odds of consecutive failures as you describe would have me checking out the house wiring.Snakes issue was addressed with firmware as I remember and a possible board replacement(?).Definitely a QC issue but doubtful that its assembly related in any way.Floating blacks occurred on Panasonics,as a design issue, long before Mexican assembly .It has never been considered any assembly fault.

You cannot attribute those faults to Mexican assembly anymore than I could attribute Pioneers buzz issues (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12381325#post12381325), shutdown issues (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9098694#post9098694) or HMG failures (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912837)to US assembly.

I've never had those issues, especially the power supply issue, with any of my Pioneer panels that were assembles in Cali (PDP-4340, PDP-5050, PRO-930, PRO-1130, PRO-1150).

Pioneer has had its share of power supply issues (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/PressRoom/Press+Releases/Home+Entertainment/Pioneer+Announces+That+It+Will+Continue+to+Offer+A+Free+Powe r+Supply+Replacement+for+Certain+Consumer+Plasma+Displays).N ot due to assembly issues either.

Panasonic volume out of Mexico in one month approaches what Pioneer will produce in a year.Seems we should be drowning in Panasonic "issue" threads if Mexican assembly was so substandard.We are not.

All manuf. will have problems with products but to continually push the notion that a Mexican worker in Mexico is sub-standard to a (Mexican??) worker in Pomona really has a racist under tone to it.

All manuf. will have problems with products but to continually push the notion that a Mexican worker in Mexico is sub-standard to a (Mexican??) worker in Pomona really has a racist under tone to it.

Great post until you got to here, calling the guy a racist because he voices his opinion is absurd :rolleyes:

How?
If a second power supply also failed its not likely the first was installed incorrectly.The odds of consecutive failures as you describe would have me checking out the house wiring.Snakes issue was addressed with firmware as I remember and a possible board replacement(?).Definitely a QC issue but doubtful that its assembly related in any way.Floating blacks occurred on Panasonics,as a design issue, long before Mexican assembly .It has never been considered any assembly fault.Well guess what, I had 2 Pansonics back to back fail due to the power supplies. House wiring? My house is brand new and I was here for the most important installs (that includes wiring). The third Panasonic and current 1130 have worked flawlessly with the same outlet.

No fimrware ever fixed my snake issues.

Board replacements...well I think you need to stay away from that as it is borderline hypocrytiacal on your part ;)

Floating blacks....duh. I know it is inherent to Pansonics designs. And it will still be apparent in their 11G models as the flaw lies in the "Real Black" algorithm.

Great post until you got to here, calling the guy a racist because he voices his opinion is absurd :rolleyes:Agreed. I have ZERO personal issues with our southern brothers.

"Assumptions are the mother of all kcuf-ups"

I think VFR's points are very well made and I note that their was no substantitive response. His main point was that:

....You cannot attribute those faults to Mexican assembly anymore than I could attribute Pioneers buzz issues (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12381325#post12381325), shutdown issues (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9098694#post9098694) or HMG failures (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912837)to US assembly.

Panasonic volume out of Mexico in one month approaches what Pioneer will produce in a year. Seems we should be drowning in Panasonic "issue" threads if Mexican assembly was so substandard. We are not....

Almost every consumer product has something that was produced in China. The point optivity was trying to make (and by no means am I backing anything he says) is that the location of where the product is assembled has a major factor on quality.

You can look at the automoble industry as a reference. (emphasis added)

It would be more meaningful if you gave examples. I'm guessing an example of your point would be that cars assembled in the USA are of less "quality" than cars assembled in Japan? [If that's not a good example then give us one.]

Given that **fact**, you're then implying that displays assembled in Mexico are of less "quality" than displays assembled in So.Ca USA. Is that your logic and if so why?

Agreed. I have ZERO personal issues with our southern brothers.

"Assumptions are the mother of all kcuf-ups"

My apologies d-nice as I believe I have misinterpreted your need to explain another posters intentions as tacit approval for those intentions when you where actually just trying to justify the use of cheap Chinese parts and deflect overall attention.

In light of this perhaps you would care to rate Pioneers quality based on location of assembly.For example,based on Optivitys stated opinions, it would seem he would prefer a Japan built panel as opposed to US assembled as Japan assembly=higher quality and US assembly=lower quality between the two.

Also the reason for so many buzz issues on the US forum could point to faulty US assembly.

What do you think?

I think VFR's points are very well made and I note that their was no substantitive response. His main point was that:





It would be more meaningful if you gave examples. I'm guessing an example of your point would be that cars assembled in the USA are of less "quality" than cars assembled in Japan? [If that's not a good example then give us one.]

Given that **fact**, you're then implying that displays assembled in Mexico are of less "quality" than displays assembled in So.Ca USA. Is that your logic and if so why?What **Facts** has he provided? I provided my experience with my purchases. Power supply issues are not impervious to any brand. However, I've never had 2 plasmas fail due to the power supply. Purple snakes is a well known issue. As I've said before, referencing Chinese chips in a Pioneer to equal or inferior QC to Mexican assemblies and then stating that the purple snake issue can be fixed per a replacement board and should be excluded per assembly location is borderline hypocritical.

At this point it's best to agree to disagree.

My apologies d-nice as I believe I have misinterpreted your need to explain another posters intentions as tacit approval for those intentions when you where actually just trying to justify the use of cheap Chinese parts and deflect overall attention.Once again you are assuming. Where, why and how am I justifying Chinese chips in Pioneers. I specifically said that in almost every electronic device out there, there is at least one Chinese part. Now if you really want to get technical, what percent of Pioneer's have Chinese parts compared to Panasonics. I think it's best you stick to digging thru Panasonic's parts department before I rip you a new a**hole or agree to disagree....your choice.

In light of this perhaps you would care to rate Pioneers quality based on location of assembly.For example,based on Optivitys stated opinions, it would seem he would prefer a Japan built panel as opposed to US assembled as Japan assembly=higher quality and US assembly=lower quality between the two.i do not agree with 95% percent of optivity's comments. Why don't you ask him about his personal feelings.

Also the reason for so many buzz issues on the US forum could point to faulty US assembly.

What do you think?You tell me, I don't have those issues so why comment on them?

Once again you are assuming. Where, why and how am I justifying Chinese chips in Pioneers. I specifically said that in almost every electronic device out there, there is at least one Chinese part. Now if you really want to get technical, what percent of Pioneer's have Chinese parts compared to Panasonics. I think it's best you stick to digging thru Panasonic's parts department before I rip you a new a**hole or agree to disagree....your choice.Bring it on.

i do not agree with 95% percent of optivity's comments. Why don't you ask him about his personal feelings.
I was asking for your opinion,I already know his.

You tell me, I don't have those issues so why comment on them?
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."-- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)Dr. Carl Sagan

:rolleyes: you guys need to chill out and quit bitchin'

Let's stay on topic here and do something productive.

All I want to know is this. Next gen, 9G Pioneer 1080p 50": When?
In fact I want release dates and MSRPs on Pioneer's entire 9G line, that would be great. :D

That wait is killing me. The day I finally get to turn on my new TV better be worth it.

What **Facts** has he provided?....

You misread my post. I wasn't referring to his facts, I was referring to the point I thought you were trying to make about cars and displays assembled in different countries. You have almost 6,400 posts and, as I understand it, you have some "insider" contacts. Your opinion is valued. Your recently stated opinion is that:

....the location of where the product is assembled has a major factor on quality. You can look at the automoble industry as a reference.

Let me restate my earlier post and try to make it clearer.

I'm guessing an example of your point (that "the location of where the product is assembled has a major factor on quality. You can look at the automoble industry as a reference") would be that cars assembled in the USA are of lesser "quality" than cars assembled in Japan? If that's you're point, you're implying that displays assembled in Mexico are of lesser "quality" than displays assembled in So.Ca USA.

Is that's your point, do you have some insider information (or any information) that supports this allegation?

:rolleyes: you guys need to chill out and quit bitchin'

Let's stay on topic here and do something productive.

All I want to know is this. Next gen, 9G Pioneer 1080p 50": When?
In fact I want release dates and MSRPs on Pioneer's entire 9G line, that would be great. :D

That wait is killing me. The day I finally get to turn on my new TV better be worth it.

Actually getting back on topic would be stating the supply is still ok on some models :)

I know that this is still off subject but I have to agree with D Nice.
Not only does the location of where a product is built have a major impact on quality but also where the parts that go into the product are made.

The only reason companies set up plants and build products in countries such as Mexico and China is because the labor is so cheap. I glad that Pioneer so far has taken the high road at least on where their TVs are built. If they start having them built in China or Mexico then they will be just like all the rest...........Panasonic, Samsung etc.

I would much rather pay a premium price for a TV that is built with a little better paid labor force with higher quality standards.

To the best of my recollection Sony had been cranking out decent TVs in Mexico back to the early Trinitron days. And decent ones and not so decent ones in the good ol' US of A.

It is very possible to trace a known defect to a specific point of assembly. But without knowing all the variabilities, blaming it strictly on poorly paid workers is a huge assumption. Not to say it is not a factor, and one any manufacturer should be aware of...but saying it's an assembly problem is saying a LOT and in the end is often the result of poor instructions, bad or the wrong parts, poor QC and insufficient oversight. Or any combination thereof.
The exact same problems you will see on any work that is subcontracted to a remote facility, even on the homefront.

To the best of my recollection Sony had been cranking out decent TVs in Mexico back to the early Trinitron days.Not for the US market. We didn't see a surge in "assembled" or "made" in Mexico electronics until after NAFTA.

It is very possible to trace a known defect to a specific point of assembly. But without knowing all the variabilities, blaming it strictly on poorly paid workers is a huge assumption. Not to say it is not a factor, and one any manufacturer should be aware of...but saying it's an assembly problem is saying a LOT and in the end is often the result of poor instructions, bad or the wrong parts, poor QC and insufficient oversight. Or any combination thereof.
The exact same problems you will see on any work that is subcontracted to a remote facility, even on the homefront.I have zero personal issues with any person who works in Mexico. Racism is not in my blood, conscious, or heart. However, I do know that worker ethics vary per country....regardless of an individual company's QC policy and/or procedures.

I have zero personal issues with any person who works in Mexico. Racism is not in my blood, conscious, or heart. However, I do know that worker ethics vary per country....regardless of an individual company's QC policy and/or procedures.

That answers my question.

To the best of my recollection Sony had been cranking out decent TVs in Mexico back to the early Trinitron days. And decent ones and not so decent ones in the good ol' US of A.

It is very possible to trace a known defect to a specific point of assembly. But without knowing all the variabilities, blaming it strictly on poorly paid workers is a huge assumption. Not to say it is not a factor, and one any manufacturer should be aware of...but saying it's an assembly problem is saying a LOT and in the end is often the result of poor instructions, bad or the wrong parts, poor QC and insufficient oversight. Or any combination thereof.
The exact same problems you will see on any work that is subcontracted to a remote facility, even on the homefront.

Yea,
Blaming it on poorly paid workers is probably false.
I a Manufacturing Engineer and If sony is anything like the manufacturing plant I have worked at, it doesn't matter who is getting paid what. Most of todays manufacturing plants break the assembly process into such small individual processes, that anyone can do a specific job. Its like, one person puts the screw on, then the other puts the washer on, then another tightens it,etc. Doing it like this dramatically reduces defects because the employees don't have to remember much or have much skill. they basically just have to show up to work.
Personally I preferr the Lean manufacturing process that alot of companys use. Its make it essential for all employees to increase the quality output of thier job and thier performance is rated on this.

A recent issue of Consumer Reports tracked repair rates for plasmas since 2004 and had Panasonic at the top for reliability with only 2% needing repairs. Pioneer wasn't far behind. If this is what happens with Mexican assembly I hope more of my electronics come from there.

What do you guys think the 6010 and 150fd will bottom out at?

What do you guys think the 6010 and 150fd will bottom out at?It's against the forum's rules to anwer that question. Actually it's also against the rules to ask that question :D

Here's my take...

#1 Mexico has had US maquiladora manufacturing operations since the 1960's...truth is in the past decade or so, Mexico has lost a great deal of manufacturing to China...there is very qualitative off-shore manufacturing throughout the world...the key component is middle management (manufacturing supervision to direct and assure QC and QA) not the laborers themselves...be assured that there are very high-end electronics being manufactured in China...as well as the US, Mexico, Indonesia, India, etc.

#2 Pioneer is getting beaten (badly) in the plasma TV sales category...there is no other way to intrepret the sales data...Panasonic et al are in tune with the US (and global) consumer...having something for everyone...there is a reason that Mercedes has the C-Class and BMW has the 3-Series...in the hopes that you, the consumer, will grow up with their car brand...while entry level remains qualitative and adheres to the tradition of the brand, it is within reach of the "average" enthusiast.

It will interesting to see the direction and reaction of Pioneer given the current market conditions...i.e. competition...and a suspect US economy.

While Pioneer may prefer to be a high-end niche product, I see this as a very risky strategy for their longterm financial health, especially given the vast improvement of their competition's plasma TV products.

Actually getting back on topic would be stating the supply is still ok on some models :)

Nice work Roman, at least someone has their head on straight :D I may be contacting you soon to reduce your stock because I'm not sure how much longer I can wait.

How a Pio 8G supply thread turned into a discussion about Mexicans' ethics I am not entirely sure...

I have another ingenious idea. So good, in fact, that it is deserving of its own post.

One of the Pioneer dealers on this board needs to draft a letter to Pioneer, showing this thread as an example of how the PDP shortage is reeking havoc on AV enthusiasts. It is taking such a toll in fact that people are beginning to lose their minds and are discussing the very fabric that binds this nation such as free trade.
To resolve these issues they must issue an immediate press release stating the follow:
- The date on which 8G panel production will ceased.
- Current global inventory of all 8G panels.
- What models (size, resolution) they will be releasing for their 2008 (9G) lineup.
- When these new panels will be available for delivery.
- Improvements that have been made.
- MSRP of new panels.
- Special cost pricing for the participants of this thread for their anguish.

I look forward to hearing from Pioneer.

I have another ingenious idea. So good, in fact, that it is deserving of its own post.

One of the Pioneer dealers on this board needs to draft a letter to Pioneer, showing this thread as an example of how the PDP shortage is reeking havoc on AV enthusiasts. It is taking such a toll in fact that people are beginning to lose their minds and are discussing the very fabric that binds this nation such as free trade.
To resolve these issues they must issue an immediate press release stating the follow:
- The date on which 8G panel production will ceased.
- Current global inventory of all 8G panels.
- What models (size, resolution) they will be releasing for their 2008 (9G) lineup.
- When these new panels will be available for delivery.
- Improvements that have been made.
- MSRP of new panels.
- Special cost pricing for the participants of this thread for their anguish.

I look forward to hearing from Pioneer.

I wish :o

I doubt very seriously that pio cares what a few of us think on the avsforum :(

I know that this is still off subject but I have to agree with D Nice.
Not only does the location of where a product is built have a major impact on quality but also where the parts that go into the product are made.

The only reason companies set up plants and build products in countries such as Mexico and China is because the labor is so cheap. I glad that Pioneer so far has taken the high road at least on where their TVs are built. If they start having them built in China or Mexico then they will be just like all the rest...........Panasonic, Samsung etc.

I would much rather pay a premium price for a TV that is built with a little better paid labor force with higher quality standards.

I also agree and thank you for stating this as you did. Premium products, manufactured in country is a good thing.

-Robert

This really is a bummer. I mean, the Kuro's are the best plasma TV's you can currently purchase (my opinion, of course). It sure stinks that there isn't enough of a supply available for others to join the club. I sure hope Pioneer makes a better estimation on the projected sales with this upcoming gen.

And how did this turn into a quality control/issues thread (X brand Vs. Y brand)? Unless I misunderstood, isn't this about the current limited supply/availability of the 8th gen Kuro's?

Here's my take...

#1 Mexico has had US maquiladora manufacturing operations since the 1960's...truth is in the past decade or so, Mexico has lost a great deal of manufacturing to China...there is very qualitative off-shore manufacturing throughout the world...the key component is middle management (manufacturing supervision to direct and assure QC and QA) not the laborers themselves...be assured that there are very high-end electronics being manufactured in China...as well as the US, Mexico, Indonesia, India, etc.

#2 Pioneer is getting beaten (badly) in the plasma TV sales category...there is no other way to intrepret the sales data...Panasonic et al are in tune with the US (and global) consumer...having something for everyone...there is a reason that Mercedes has the C-Class and BMW has the 3-Series...in the hopes that you, the consumer, will grow up with their car brand...while entry level remains qualitative and adheres to the tradition of the brand, it is within reach of the "average" enthusiast.

It will interesting to see the direction and reaction of Pioneer given the current market conditions...i.e. competition...and a suspect US economy.

While Pioneer may prefer to be a high-end niche product, I see this as a very risky strategy for their longterm financial health, especially given the vast improvement of their competition's plasma TV products.

Not sure you are correct. Pioneer enjoys a good profit margin and has a very admirable niche that now lost the only formidable competitor, Fujitsu.

You really have to look ahead to the next several years and I'd say between their continued major product advancements and promotions they will continue to brand themselves as the quality leader and they have more clearly separated themselves from all of the rest of the pack with real pq advantages. I would bet that each year they will grow their market share in a controlled way.

-Robert

This really is a bummer. I mean, the Kuro's are the best plasma TV's you can currently purchase (my opinion, of course). It sure stinks that there isn't enough of a supply available for others to join the club. I sure hope Pioneer makes a better estimation on the projected sales with this upcoming gen.

Just to be clear, here's what left to buy.

Limited supply of PDP-4280, and slightly better availability of 42" PRO-950HD.

Almost no PDP-5080FD, but plenty of PRO-1150HD inventory.

Plenty of PDP-6010FD and limited but a small steady flow of PRO-150FDs

Where inventory of all models will be scarce is by May and June where everything is projected to be very very tight.

Happy Kuro shopping!

-Robert

Just to be clear, here's what left to buy.

Limited supply of PDP-4280, and slightly better availability of 42" PRO-950HD.

Almost no PDP-5080FD, but plenty of PRO-1150HD inventory.

Plenty of PDP-6010FD and limited but a small steady flow of PRO-150FDs

Where inventory of all models will be scarce is by May and June where everything is projected to be very very tight.

Happy Kuro shopping!

-Robert

This makes complete sense to me and I'm probably just stating the obvious but I'll go for it anyways.
On the lower end (4280 & 5080), the consumer's that shop in this price range cannot justify the additional $s for the Elite models, hence a healthier supply on the elites.
On the high-end, the 1080p 50" & 60" Elites are out-selling their non-elite counter-parts. Those that shop in this price range are most likely true enthusiats (and / or have the extra dough) to go for the top of the line models. Hence the reverse case of 'lower-end' models. You didn't state the status of the 5010 & 110FD but I imagine that the 110s are harder to find (or even).

Then again my analysis could be totally wrong considering I'm a n00b and do not even currently own a TV.

Just to be clear, here's what left to buy.

Limited supply of PDP-4280, and slightly better availability of 42" PRO-950HD.

Almost no PDP-5080FD, but plenty of PRO-1150HD inventory.

Plenty of PDP-6010FD and limited but a small steady flow of PRO-150FDs

Where inventory of all models will be scarce is by May and June where everything is projected to be very very tight.

Happy Kuro shopping!

-Robert

Oops, left out the PDP-5010FD and PRO-110FD, both are available but limited on the PRO-110FD.

I think VFR's points are very well made and I note that their was no substantitive response. His main point was that:





It would be more meaningful if you gave examples. I'm guessing an example of your point would be that cars assembled in the USA are of less "quality" than cars assembled in Japan? [If that's not a good example then give us one.]

Given that **fact**, you're then implying that displays assembled in Mexico are of less "quality" than displays assembled in So.Ca USA. Is that your logic and if so why?It's called "work ethic." In our modern day politically correct society everyone is a winner & no one ever loses.

But when it comes to my money... I buy Japanese made (in America) automobiles & electronics 1st, American made 2nd... and nothing branded from China or Mexico (if I can avoid doing so).

The last CRT-TV I purchased from Panasonic, a CT-36HL42, was made in Mexico... the first one I received was bad out-of-the-box & it's replacement lasted for less than 5 years before giving up the ghost.

Not sure you are correct. Pioneer enjoys a good profit margin and has a very admirable niche that now lost the only formidable competitor, Fujitsu.

You really have to look ahead to the next several years and I'd say between their continued major product advancements and promotions they will continue to brand themselves as the quality leader and they have more clearly separated themselves from all of the rest of the pack with real pq advantages. I would bet that each year they will grow their market share in a controlled way.

-Robert

Well, well, well...

TOKYO (Reuters) - Pioneer Corp will stop making 42-inch plasma panels and instead buy panels in that size and smaller from Panasonic maker Matsushita Electric Industrial or Hitachi Ltd to turn around its loss-making flat TV business, the Asahi newspaper said.

Japanese consumer and auto electronics maker Pioneer will end output of such panels at a plant in Kagoshima prefecture in southern Japan as early as by March 2009, the paper said in the report on Saturday.

It will focus on making panels 50 inches or larger at other plants, the Asahi said.

It would be Pioneer's latest step away from a vertically integrated business model, in which manufacturers conduct production of key parts as well as assembly of finished products, after its decision last year to buy liquid crystal display panels from Sharp Corp to start offering LCD TVs.

Pioneer's plasma business has been struggling to compete with larger rivals with better production efficiency such as Matsushita and LG Electronics Inc

Pioneer has a target to sell 480,000 plasma TVs in this business year, ending on March 31, less than one-tenth of Matsushita's sales target of 5 million units.

Pioneer bought the Kagoshima plant from NEC Corp and now wants NEC to buy it back, the Asahi said.

A Pioneer spokesman said its flat TV strategy will become available when it unveils a mid-term business plan in early March, but nothing specific has been decided.

Shares in Pioneer were up 3.8 percent by early afternoon, outperforming the Tokyo stock market's electrical machinery index IELEC, which rose 2.2 percent.

(Reporting by Taiga Uranaka, Kiyoshi Takenaka; Editing by Michael Watson)

(c) Reuters 2008. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by caching, framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks and trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world.

BMAN1212...reporting only the facts.

I don't want to get involved in all the bickering here, I just want to ask a basic question. If I want to buy a G10 or G11 series Kuro in the 60+ inch range (which I plan on doing), will I be buying Pioneer or a rebranded Panasonic? Will the quality/performance be the same as it is in today's Kuro models? How important is the manufacturer of the glass from a big picture standpoint as everyone talks about "Pioneer glass" as being important. Please TRY to keep any replies focused and not get into a fist fight. Thank you.

The game is that Pioneer is losing the game...as indicated in their recent quarterly financial statement (as noted on this forum, I believe), Pioneer plasma TV sales are falling while the entire plasma category is growing.

I beleve that Pioneer is in deep discussion on how to get back in the game...Panasonic, Samsung, even LG are winning the game...assuming that the game is sales and profits.

They probably haven't released information because they haven't quite figured out the information...Pioneer must close the price gap between themselves and the competition...but at what cost...while their product superiority may exist versus the competition, they must realize with the recent drop in retail sales prices come a serious increase in sales activity.

Oh, to be a fly on the Pioneer wall...I believe that they are seriously sweating the recent plasma sales successes of their competition...they invented the game and now others are winning it...Ouch!the game is always about profits, Pioneer needs more facilities to keep up with the demand for their new Kuro line of PDP's, and you surely can not build more factories when you are in the red, lenders are not to crazy about lending money to someone who already ows, hope Pioneer pulls out of this, not because they make fantastic PDP's, but because competition is good for all of us.

Not sure you are correct. Pioneer enjoys a good profit margin and has a very admirable niche that now lost the only formidable competitor, Fujitsu.

You really have to look ahead to the next several years and I'd say between their continued major product advancements and promotions they will continue to brand themselves as the quality leader and they have more clearly separated themselves from all of the rest of the pack with real pq advantages. I would bet that each year they will grow their market share in a controlled way.

-Robert

Well, well, well...

TOKYO (Reuters) - Pioneer Corp will stop making 42-inch plasma panels and instead buy panels in that size and smaller from Panasonic maker Matsushita Electric Industrial or Hitachi Ltd to turn around its loss-making flat TV business, the Asahi newspaper said.

Japanese consumer and auto electronics maker Pioneer will end output of such panels at a plant in Kagoshima prefecture in southern Japan as early as by March 2009, the paper said in the report on Saturday.

It will focus on making panels 50 inches or larger at other plants, the Asahi said.

It would be Pioneer's latest step away from a vertically integrated business model, in which manufacturers conduct production of key parts as well as assembly of finished products, after its decision last year to buy liquid crystal display panels from Sharp Corp to start offering LCD TVs.

Pioneer's plasma business has been struggling to compete with larger rivals with better production efficiency such as Matsushita and LG Electronics Inc

Pioneer has a target to sell 480,000 plasma TVs in this business year, ending on March 31, less than one-tenth of Matsushita's sales target of 5 million units.

Pioneer bought the Kagoshima plant from NEC Corp and now wants NEC to buy it back, the Asahi said.

A Pioneer spokesman said its flat TV strategy will become available when it unveils a mid-term business plan in early March, but nothing specific has been decided.

Shares in Pioneer were up 3.8 percent by early afternoon, outperforming the Tokyo stock market's electrical machinery index IELEC, which rose 2.2 percent.

(Reporting by Taiga Uranaka, Kiyoshi Takenaka; Editing by Michael Watson)

(c) Reuters 2008. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by caching, framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks and trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world.

BMAN1212...reporting only the facts.

First, the article you referred to has a combination of the opinions of the author mixed with some facts.

Second, many of the authors opinions are incorrect.

Third, What I was saying is that Pioneer enjoys a very nice g/p per panel and is in the high-end niche market so they are not trying or interested in increasing production like LG, Panasonic or other mass market CE manufacturers.

Finally, my analyst is still 100% correct in everything I said.

-Robert

....But when it comes to my money... I buy Japanese made (in America) automobiles & electronics 1st.... and nothing branded from China or Mexico (if I can avoid doing so). (emphasis added)

The last CRT-TV I purchased from Panasonic, a CT-36HL42, was made in Mexico... the first one I received was bad out-of-the-box & it's replacement lasted for less than 5 years before giving up the ghost.

"Japanese made (in America)".?

Your last CRT was made in Mexico and it was "bad out of the box" and it's replacement "lasted for less than 5 years...."

A recent issue of Consumer Reports tracked repair rates for plasmas since 2004 and had Panasonic at the top for reliability with only 2% needing repairs .... If this is what happens with Mexican assembly I hope more of my electronics come from there.

Sure I can. My first 2 37PX60u panels power supplies failed within the first 3 days of use. The third one was fine. Both my 42PX600u and 37PX60u had the purple snakes issue as well as the standard floating Panasonic blacks. I cannot attribute the floating blacks to the Mexican assembly, but perhaps I can attribute the purple snakes and power supply issues to that location. I've never had those issues, especially the power supply issue, with any of my Pioneer panels that were assembles in Cali (PDP-4340, PDP-5050, PRO-930, PRO-1130, PRO-1150).

Consumer Reports survey of THOUSANDS of plasma owners does not back up any claims that Pioneer is superior to Panasonic in reliability, or vice versa. Panny had a 2% rate of repair, and Pio was 3% making them statistically equal in reliablity and both rated as as among the most reliable sets of any technology or brand available today. You can buy either brand, and figure the odds are as good as it gets that you bought a reliable set. Few if any consumer products have a better track record for reliablity than the Panny and Pio plasmas have exhibited thus far. Of course they are not 100% reliable, but they sure are darn close overall.

I thought Sony used to make CRT RPTVs in Pittsburgh (somewhere near where I live).

I thought Sony used to make CRT RPTVs in Pittsburgh (somewhere near where I live).


They did ASSEMBLE CRT direct view and RPTV sets there. Some 3LCD, and SXRD were assembled there as well. No set is really MADE in USA though...most parts are foreign sourced on all sets. Nice to know at least some American labor is being used on some sets though.

Anyone have any idea what the MSRP is going to be for the PDP-5020FD and/or the PDP-5090HD? Sorry if this is a little off topic :)

It's nice having people like Roman here to keep us all informed. <3

Not for the US market. We didn't see a surge in "assembled" or "made" in Mexico electronics until after NAFTA.

My error, Sony established a plant in San Diego in the early 70's. Many workers came across the border with permits to work there on a daily basis. It was not until 1987 they established a small production facility in Mexico.

I have zero personal issues with any person who works in Mexico. Racism is not in my blood, conscious, or heart. However, I do know that worker ethics vary per country....regardless of an individual company's QC policy and/or procedures.

No racism implied by any stretch of imagination. And with regards to work ethics, some of the most reliable workers we have in CA are from south of the border. I say that based on many years in the electronics manufacturing in CA, and more recently new home construction. Maybe they adopt a new work ethic in their transition. ;)

Anyone have any idea what the MSRP is going to be for the PDP-5020FD and/or the PDP-5090HD? Sorry if this is a little off topic :)

It's nice having people like Roman here to keep us all informed. <3there will be no 5090. D-NICE posted the expected msrp of the 5020 at $3500!! But then Robert came in and said that it WILL be higher. :confused::confused:

"Japanese made (in America)".? Honda Accord. ;)

Your last CRT was made in Mexico and it was "bad out of the box" and it's replacement "lasted for less than 5 years...."Yes... the infamous CT-36HL42.

The new price points for pioneer 9g (<35% or so) has to give pioneer more market share on panny. I had no idea there was such a great disparity in volume. Thank you for sharing that robert.

Im waiting on 9gs better contrast as a bonus. Two to three months wait is a no brainer.

First, the article you referred to has a combination of the opinions of the author mixed with some facts.

Second, many of the authors opinions are incorrect.

Third, What I was saying is that Pioneer enjoys a very nice g/p per panel and is in the high-end niche market so they are not trying or interested in increasing production like LG, Panasonic or other mass market CE manufacturers.

Finally, my analyst is still 100% correct in everything I said.

-Robert

With all due respect, numbers don't lie...facts are facts...not opinions...

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6530994.html?q=pioneer+electronics

To highlight from the above fact based financial statement driven article...

Pioneer Electronics said its fiscal third-quarter consolidated operating revenue declined 1.7 percent, due in part to decreased sales of plasma displays and DVD recorders.

This was attributed to higher earnings in car electronics and improved profitability in other segments, despite the decline in the plasma display business, Pioneer said.

Overall plasma display sales declined due to decreases in home-use sales in Europe and North America, despite higher home-use sales in Japan

Operating income for the segment was down 72.8 percent year-on-year at $6.8 million. This was attributed to a larger loss in plasma displays in line with lower sales.

Pioneer said it has lowered its previous operating revenue forecast "because plasma display sales are projected to fall below forecasts chiefly in Europe and North America."

The company said it expects improving gross profit margin and higher sales of car audio products for consumer markets in Central and South America, despite larger losses in the home electronics business due to lower plasma display sales.

Where is your silver lining?...How is the Pioneer plasma business profitable?

I am by no means anti-Pioneer...competitive market forces are healthy for a capitalist society and consumers...however, not to acknowledge that Pioneer is struggling to recapture their plasma allure (& sales) given the dramatically changed landscape (i.e. improvements of plasma & LCD competition) seems foolhardy or at least "head in the sand-ish".

I wish Pioneer well...they make a nice product but their 2007 (pre-price drop) pricing seemed out of touch with today's consumer given the many qualitative options now available...that's all.:)

If you want a high-end screen get a Pioneer ASAP, because if they go the way of Fujitsu, you'll be stuck with Panasonic as the alternative.

The game is that Pioneer is losing the game...as indicated in their recent quarterly financial statement (as noted on this forum, I believe), Pioneer plasma TV sales are falling while the entire plasma category is growing.

I beleve that Pioneer is in deep discussion on how to get back in the game...Panasonic, Samsung, even LG are winning the game...assuming that the game is sales and profits.

They probably haven't released information because they haven't quite figured out the information...Pioneer must close the price gap between themselves and the competition...but at what cost...while their product superiority may exist versus the competition, they must realize with the recent drop in retail sales prices come a serious increase in sales activity.

Oh, to be a fly on the Pioneer wall...I believe that they are seriously sweating the recent plasma sales successes of their competition...they invented the game and now others are winning it...Ouch!

What the frack happened is that they dropped alot of their previous sellers and went exclusive with places like Best Buy and a few others. Sorta backfired right Pioneer?

What the frack happened is that they dropped alot of their previous sellers and went exclusive with places like Best Buy and a few others. Sorta backfired right Pioneer?

Not necessarily. Horse has brown hair and Sally has brown hair doesn't make Sally a horse. ....in other words, you can't presume dropping the previous sellers hurt more than helped.

WTF? i am on travel for the past 6 weeks, and finally home next week to recieve an order, and call invision to order my 5080 and... arrrg!

so at this point i am thinking i just might as well wait a few more months for the 9g to come out?! i have been without a TV for 5 months, whats another 5!!

...as an ignorant consumer - and JMO - i would find it hard to believe pioneers strategy is to raise their prices... that aint gonna fly (at least in the US economy) in '08.

Basic supply and demand and its not Pioneer or dealers raising prices its the distributors :( I highly doubt anyone would be able to get a Pioneer for the 5080HD value anyway with the 9Gs

Basic supply and demand and its not Pioneer or dealers raising prices its the distributors :( I highly doubt anyone would be able to get a Pioneer for the 5080HD value anyway with the 9Gs

hey man - sorry if my post was worded to sound like that - i completly understand why your pricing is what it is - i was not infering you were rasiing prices at all... your great!

what i ment was for the next generation pioneers, it owuld make life tough for pioneer if the raise the msrp over the comparable 8g models - thats what i ment! ....but i still bummed!!

i dunno what to do - i was on the fence about the 5080 because of the glar and dim whites - but Romans (old) price offer had me set to do it... now..i dunno... waitto see if the new panisonics are "as good" as the current pioneers, but cost less - look like the panisonics will have a matt glass - so thats a plus for my bright room - if the white are a bit punchier - i would give up little in otrher areas for that... if the 9g are 1080p only... then.... i dunno - i might have to get a 60" if they have better whites than now. but who knows - thats way far away... i would get an LCD but - to me they look great 9i mean, really GREAT!) but only 80% of the time and 10% of the time it looks like total rubbish, aweful! can't live withthat.

my conclusion? i haven't found a TV i like?!?! doomed! :p

I am showing the PDP-5020FD and PDP-6020FD are coming the begining of June and the Elite PRO111FD and PRO151FD are the end of July. very reliable info. Probably the last, rumor is they are switching to LCD.

I am showing the PDP-5020FD and PDP-6020FD are coming the begining of June and the Elite PRO111FD and PRO151FD are the end of July. very reliable info. Probably the last, rumor is they are switching to LCD.

Hope its earlier

Everyone,

I just got my new PRO-150FD in and it looks sweet. The born date is March 2008. Awesome!!!
FYI: I have no buzzing noise at all not even when the colors change