I wanted to get a thread started about choppy and jerky HD video content on ABC primarily during primetime. I've done some researching here and elsewhere, and have gathered some common issues:

I have the jerky and choppy video on Dish Network in Chicago, Illinois for both LOST and Eli Stone. Commercials and other programming looked fine. And oddly, these shows on OTA are fine.

One individual here confirms that he has also experienced the same problem - and he is on DTV. Not sure where he lives.

Another individual at dbstalk that is located in Chicago who is having the same problem. Not sure what feed he has.

There are about 5 other individuals from Chicago, Texas, and Denver that have all also experienced the same problem. One indicated he was on Comcast, and two indicated that they were on OTA.

Is there anyone else out there that is having this issue?

ABC uses equipment which drops frames to speed up playback to allow more commercials to be inserted. This can be confirmed by comparing the broadcast on ABC to one on a Canadian network such as CTV. Once commercials are removed, the CTV broadcast of an hour-long show is usually about 30 seconds longer than ABC's. This isn't related to any specific station or distribution method, and isn't present on every show; it's most common on the late primetime show when they add more commercials to the middle show to make it last till 2 past the hour.

I have also experienced this judder effect during LOST over the last two weeks. I have Dish Network DVR and am in the Chicago suburbs. I DVRed the first two episodes of Lost season and did not have this problem.

coyoteaz - I'm not sure I understand. ABC is intentionally making the video unwatchably juddery/choppy? Or is this a result of an error related to what you are describing?

I'm at my wits end. I can't watch this.

I don't notice the choppy video but the overall PQ on Eli Stone on WABC-DT is not good.

The video looks soft on the HD and SD feed. I'm also getting more artifacting during medium camera movement then I notice on the other HD shows.

It is intentional, though I wouldn't call it unwatchable. Like other processes such as telecine that alter the frames of a video to adjust framerate or runtime, most people won't notice it but there will be a small number who are sensitive.

I am also in the Chicago area and Lost is irritating to watch because of the juddering. At first I thought it was the DVR, but my other standard HD receiver does the same thing. It is beyond something only a few people will notice, it is like the framerate drops into the teens. The sound is fine, but the video is ridiculous.

ABC uses equipment which drops frames to speed up playback to allow more commercials to be inserted. This can be confirmed by comparing the broadcast on ABC to one on a Canadian network such as CTV. Once commercials are removed, the CTV broadcast of an hour-long show is usually about 30 seconds longer than ABC's. This isn't related to any specific station or distribution method, and isn't present on every show; it's most common on the late primetime show when they add more commercials to the middle show to make it last till 2 past the hour.

One of these bad boys?

Prime Image Time Tailor (http://www.primeimageinc.com/products.php?viewprod=26)

IIR, there's a simllar product called the "Time Machine"

I am also in the Chicago area and Lost is irritating to watch because of the juddering. At first I thought it was the DVR, but my other standard HD receiver does the same thing. It is beyond something only a few people will notice, it is like the framerate drops into the teens. The sound is fine, but the video is ridiculous. I totally agree that this is something way more noticeable than only by a few people. I am also in the Chicago subs and have a Dish 622. I noticed this on the last 3 episodes of Lost. It was also on Eli Stone (I don't watch Eli - I just noticed it while flipping through the dial).

I'm not sure this is a compression issue... I also recorded the SD feed of Lost and it does not have the judder and the SD vs. HD shows did not appear to have a significant time shift - I did not time them with a stop watch or anything, just that the recording stopped at very similar places after recording ended (interesting happenstance to be discussing a potential time shift and the broadcast of Lost :eek:). The SD PQ left a lot to be desired compared to the HD feed, however, I found that the HD judder was something that I could not watch and settled for the SD image.

It does seem interesting that several of the people experiencing this are in the Chicago area???

Anyone have additional info on this?

E

Interesting info about dropping frames. The TivoHD has an issue where after a few weeks it begins stuttering on 720p stations and I thought it was weird that LOST in 1080i stuttered at the same time. The purposeful frame dropping explains it. A TivoHD reboot fixes the 720p station problem but LOST still stutters, just not as much.

larry

Sounds like WLS might be having an issue since the rest of the country isn't seeing the level of problems being described in this thread by those watching on that station. ABC's temporal compression drops a frame every few seconds so it wouldn't cause the issues being seen here. It also applies to the SD broadcast since they are synced. All of you in the Chicago area should email the station since they might not even know of the problem, and even if they do, they probably blame it on viewer equipment since they haven't heard enough complaints.

I'm in the Phila burbs using a Direct TV DVR and the ABC feed is horrible.The picture locks up and I get green blocks.It's almost unwatchable.I suspect the blocking originates with my display when it looses data.(samsung HLT6187) All other channels are perfect.so it has to be the ABC feed.Wifey had a fit watching the royal family 20/20 show.

I have emailed the engineering department at WLS twice about the stuttering video on many of their HD shows, and of course have not received any replies.

I have emailed the engineering department at WLS twice about the stuttering video on many of their HD shows, and of course have not received any replies. I just emailed WLS as well. We will see if anyone gets a response. Maybe we should get Pam Zeckman on the case :D

ABC uses equipment which drops frames to speed up playback to allow more commercials to be inserted. This can be confirmed by comparing the broadcast on ABC to one on a Canadian network such as CTV. Once commercials are removed, the CTV broadcast of an hour-long show is usually about 30 seconds longer than ABC's. This isn't related to any specific station or distribution method, and isn't present on every show; it's most common on the late primetime show when they add more commercials to the middle show to make it last till 2 past the hour.

I believe this is a separate issue. I have seen reports of juddering with 720p on Mpeg4 DBS feeds. Has anyone who has seen this problem on ABC also noticed it on FOX?

Interesting info about dropping frames. The TivoHD has an issue where after a few weeks it begins stuttering on 720p stations and I thought it was weird that LOST in 1080i stuttered at the same time. The purposeful frame dropping explains it. A TivoHD reboot fixes the 720p station problem but LOST still stutters, just not as much.

larry

Unless your local affiliate is changing the format, Lost is 720p as are all ABC programs.

So far ABC primetime HD shows are the only ones that are exhibiting the judder for me. No problems during the day barring the occasional hiccup.

Unless your local affiliate is changing the format, Lost is 720p as are all ABC programs. That's what I thought too. But I looked more than once at my TivoHD resolution output and it says 1080i. It says 720p for ESPN, Fox and the other 720p stations. I need to remember to look when it's recording LOST and look at the resolution and compare to other shows on ABC.

larry

Dunno if this is applicable or useful or not, but just in case ... One issue I have run into with one of my decoders here (Zenith HDV420 ATSC receiver specifically) involving "seemingly" dropped frames(stuttering video/etc - this is all with OTA) has occured when local broadcasters sending 720p have their encoders set so that setting on the encoder such as "repeat field detection"(note: I think that one "specifically" is the "term" used for the setting for certian Harmonic encoders) is turned on .... This is supposed to allow repeated fields to be flagged so that they are drawn by the decoder rather than encoded, but apparently some decoders can't do it properly ... In any case When engineers turned off "repeat field detection" settings on their encoder, the problem went away .. Note that the decoder in the Zenith is the ONLY decoder I have which exhibited this issue ...

Note that the issue only happened during programming sourced from 24fps sources (film, 24p HD video/etc) ... And, it wasn't just network (such as ABC) programming which was effected .... From one Fox affiliate for example, the problem never occured during Fox programming since that is encoded at network level and the splicer "allows it" to effectively bypass the local encoder, but, during syndicated programming sourced from film from that station, the issue occured until they turned off the "repeat field detection" setting on their encoder ... But, from a ABC affiliate, it occured both during Network, syndicated or local programming sourced from 24fps sources ....

BTW, The time compression "issue" previously mentioned is a PITA if you are IVTC'ing and decimiating(or just decimating) frames to return material to 24fps (such as with various AVIsynth filters/scripts which I do for processes such as reencoding using AVC or VC1)....

That's what I thought too. But I looked more than once at my TivoHD resolution output and it says 1080i. It says 720p for ESPN, Fox and the other 720p stations. I need to remember to look when it's recording LOST and look at the resolution and compare to other shows on ABC.

larry
WCVB in Boston is converting ABC network programming to 1080i. They claim this was done to be in sync with the internal standard used by owner Hearst.

I thought I was the only one with an HDV420. It's still kicking but I get horizontal pink and green lines occasionally on any channel.
Just about stopped watching ABC except for Lost. At least ABC doesn't have the snap, crackle, pop of NBC switching to commercials and back. Nascar races on ABC look fabulous. For Lost I record it with an MDP-130 while watching with the same tuner but have not noticed any stuttering recently even during playback.

This is pretty clearly on an affiliate by affiliate basis. I was noticing this frame-rate speed up during some summer re-runs last year. However I am 100% sure that last weeks episode of Lost was shown @ 24/1001 on KOAT-Albuquerque, since I decimated and re-encoded with mencoder x264.

I'm not seeing any stuttering OTA here. Since Lin Productions doesn't have an HD deal with D*, I can't compare it via D* MPEG4.

At any rate, it can't be an issue from the network since I'm not seeing it on my affiliate.

However I am 100% sure that last weeks episode of Lost was shown @ 24/1001 on KOAT-Albuquerque, since I decimated and re-encoded with mencoder x264.
mencoder will output any frame rate you specify regardless of what the frame rate of the source is.

The framerate coming out of ABC's encoder (and from standard ABC stations) is still 60000/1001. Figure there are 75500 frames in a 21 minute broadcast. ABC drops 1800 of those and they can now show an extra 30 seconds worth of commercials. The total number of frames in a 30 minute timeslot hasn't changed from ~108000 and the framerate hasn't changed from 60000/1001, but ABC gets to charge for an extra 30 second slot with little noticeable effect for most viewers.

The framerate coming out of ABC's encoder (and from standard ABC stations) is still 60000/1001. Figure there are 75500 frames in a 21 minute broadcast. ABC drops 1800 of those and they can now show an extra 30 seconds worth of commercials. The total number of frames in a 30 minute timeslot hasn't changed from ~108000 and the framerate hasn't changed from 60000/1001, but ABC gets to charge for an extra 30 second slot with little noticeable effect for most viewers.

Yep - I think the speed-up is noticable with people trying to convert 3:2 60p content to 1:1 24p by removing the 3:2 pulldown pattern. AIUI the "squeeze an extra ad in" speed-up breaks the 3:2 cadence (as some frames will be dropped in a 30 minute period, giving you a source frame pair encoded as 3:1, 2:2 etc. rather than 3:2 occasionally?)

The number of 60p frames broadcast in the 30 minute period hasn't changed, but the number of frames that are used to contain the programme broadcast has been reduced as the show has been sped up. Rather than edit out a single 30 second chunk, 30 seconds worth of frames are discarded throughout the show. (I assume without interpolation though I may be wrong)

So what's the remedy for getting rid of the judder during Lost?

The 3:2 pulldown on my TV is automatically disabled with 720p @ 60 hz. I could try the "Smooth" setting, but this applies some sort of fakey frame interpolation to the signal -- I'd prefer to stay away from that. The only other setting available is "Advance", which is specifically for 1080p 24fps sources (i.e., Blu-Ray).

Or is this something WLS has to address on their end? Do they need to set their decoder's "repeat field detection" to "off" as Nitewatchman suggests?

Thanks.

I just emailed WLS as well. We will see if anyone gets a response. Maybe we should get Pam Zeckman on the case :D

e-mail sent to WLS....doubt it will amount to anything :(

WCVB in Boston is converting ABC network programming to 1080i. They claim this was done to be in sync with the internal standard used by owner Hearst.Thanks for the reason. I did check and Boston ABC is coming in at 1080i and New Hampshire ABC is 720p.

larry

So what's the remedy for getting rid of the judder during Lost?
If frames are missing, there's no way to fix it. I convert Lost to 24 fps every week and missing frames would print a big error message during the conversion so I'm not convinced that the network is stealing frames for more commercials.

True 24 fps will sometimes have more judder than the 720p we watch. If you step through the 3:2 pattern in 720p, you may find that you're not really seeing three perfect duplicates followed by two perfect duplicates. The first frame will sometimes be soft and the second one will be sharper. This actually makes motion look smoother than if the first frame were sharp and second frame were a perfect duplicate of it.

I don't know if this is how the frames are being sent from the network or if is a side effect of my affiliate's encoder trying to encode a higher bit rate network feed into a lower bit rate ATSC stream.

The 3:2 pulldown on my TV is automatically disabled with 720p @ 60 hz.
Yes, the network is already doing that for you.

Or is this something WLS has to address on their end? Do they need to set their decoder's "repeat field detection" to "off" as Nitewatchman suggests?
I thought that was only for interlaced sources.

Yep - I think the speed-up is noticable with people trying to convert 3:2 60p content to 1:1 24p by removing the 3:2 pulldown pattern. AIUI the "squeeze an extra ad in" speed-up breaks the 3:2 cadence (as some frames will be dropped in a 30 minute period, giving you a source frame pair encoded as 3:1, 2:2 etc. rather than 3:2 occasionally?)

The number of 60p frames broadcast in the 30 minute period hasn't changed, but the number of frames that are used to contain the programme broadcast has been reduced as the show has been sped up. Rather than edit out a single 30 second chunk, 30 seconds worth of frames are discarded throughout the show. (I assume without interpolation though I may be wrong)
Correct on all counts.
So what's the remedy for getting rid of the judder during Lost?

The 3:2 pulldown on my TV is automatically disabled with 720p @ 60 hz. I could try the "Smooth" setting, but this applies some sort of fakey frame interpolation to the signal -- I'd prefer to stay away from that. The only other setting available is "Advance", which is specifically for 1080p 24fps sources (i.e., Blu-Ray).

Or is this something WLS has to address on their end? Do they need to set their decoder's "repeat field detection" to "off" as Nitewatchman suggests?

Thanks.
WLS definitely has something wrong on their end because the rest of us don't see any major problems with Lost. Also, from what I've seen, ABC rarely drops frames on the 9pm show since it usually goes over by 1-2 minutes anyway and that gives them more room for commercials as it is.
If frames are missing, there's no way to fix it. I convert Lost to 24 fps every week and missing frames would print a big error message during the conversion so I'm not convinced that the network is stealing frames for more commercials.

True 24 fps will sometimes have more judder than the 720p we watch. If you step through the 3:2 pattern in 720p, you may find that you're not really seeing three perfect duplicates followed by two perfect duplicates. The first frame will sometimes be soft and the second one will be sharper. This actually makes motion look smoother than if the first frame were sharp and second frame were a perfect duplicate of it.

I don't know if this is how the frames are being sent from the network or if is a side effect of my affiliate's encoder trying to encode a higher bit rate network feed into a lower bit rate ATSC stream.


Yes, the network is already doing that for you.


I thought that was only for interlaced sources.
It's not like there are frames missing from the broadcast and replaced with nothing. When frames are intentionally dropped, everything after that is shifted ahead in time to fill the gap. Your encoder doesn't notice the difference, but like sneals2000 pointed out, the cadence is broken and your eyes might notice a skip if there happens to be a lot of motion happening at that time.

I'm wondering if WLS-DT is trying to put 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag. They broadcast 3 concurrent streams, a HD feed, a SD feed of a different show, and a very low definition feed of a weather forecast. Only WMAQ (NBC) of the major networks broadcast more than one signal, and their second signal is a low definition weather forecast. If the network's HD feed expects the full bandwidth for the HD feed, something has to give. WTTW (PBS) does broadcast a number of streams (I think 5 or 6), with one HD stream, but doesn't seem to suffer the same problem.

I'm having this issue right now, and have had it for LOST for the last 3 weeks now. I have DISH and a VIP722. My buddy on comcast doesn't see this issue. So for now, I guess it's lost in SD :( I'm located in the Chicago burbs (rolling Meadows)

Or is this something WLS has to address on their end? Do they need to set their decoder's "repeat field detection" to "off" as Nitewatchman suggests?


If, as the reports of "choppy/stuttering video" seem to suggest, it looks something along the lines of several frames being dropped every few seconds(especially during motion, including during camera pans), AND its only happening ONLY during programming sourced from 24fps(23.976fps) sources (not during say a ABC HD basketball game, other than during some commercials) - Going from previous experience, I suspect that, or some similar issue may likely be the case. HOWEVER, If it's ONLY happening via MPG4 D* or E* LiL feeds, and not via OTA MPG2 stream encoded "at the station" on decoders that are effected by the issue, then it would seem likely to me to be an D* or E* issue, not something on WLS's end ...

The thing is, a station which has a setting such as "Repeat field detection" (other encoders besides the harmonic encoders as I already mentioned may call it a different similar "sounding" setting, such as some sort of "film detection" setting), isn't really necessarily doing anything "wrong", IMO. As my understanding is that it's perfectly "OK" to do that per MPEG2 "specs" so to speak .... IMO, the problem, really is that SOME decoders won't draw the repeated fields(or "frames" if you like regarding 720p/60) correctly if they are just flagged instead of encoded .... Detecting, and Not encoding the repeated "fields" and having the decoder draw them instead improves encoding efficiency, HOWEVER, only for 24fps source material .....

Many MPEG2 decoders will work just fine with "repeat field detection"(or similar) turned on, (Including 7 of 8 hardware decoders I've used, and all the software decoders I've used with HTPC), So, only some decoders will be effected and exhibit the "choppy/stuttering video" at all, meaning folks using decoders which "work just fine" with it won't Notice a problem at all .... It's hard to put an estimate on it, but judging from reports on local threads+other forums regarding the stations that had this issue in my area, I'd guess something like between about 15~40% of all the decoders out there may be effected .... Also, It seems it is not just "earlier" models of STB's or MPEG2 decoders in sets with internal DTV receivers which are effected .... For instance The last time this issue "came up" in my local threads, I think there were reports of either some recent D* or E* (or both) STB's that exhibited the problem ....

If you do detirmine it's likely to be an issue at WLS and contact them, I know several very "DTV and MPEG2 knowledable" broadcast engineers who are already "well aware" of this issue, and while you might think they all would be, they may just have never "got the memo" so to speak .... In which case, in case its of any help a couple of issues you may run into while trying to address this issue are :

#1. Engineer you're talking to has been monitoring their signal with use of decoders which handle the "flagged only" repeated fields just fine, and may come to the conclusion that it "Must be a pulldown issue on your end" .... Well, if you get that, one thing you could try, is (note, after trying this, if this IS the issue, you'll still be getting the problem using the following "method" ) to tell them if you hook your receiver/STB up to a "plain old ordinary" analog TV via say, analog composite video+output at 480i, you still get the "stuttering/choppy video" ... I suppose You could even record it onto a VHS tape and send it to them if you wish ....

#2. Unfortunetly, it seems to be the case that setting on encoder such as "Repeat field detection" = on seems to be a default setting on some encoders, but luckily, after you've been through it ONCE with them, it's easier the 2nd time around if they've reset the encoder since they last "fixed it" .... Last time I can recall this happening from one station in my area was about 6 months ago, it first started happening when they put in a new Harris Net/VX encoder ... After they fixed it the "first time", it seemed apparent the encoder ended up getting reset to it's "default settings"(a "film detection" setting = on") about 3 times, and over about 6 weeks, we had to "remind them" about 3 times they needed to "Fix it" again .... after the third time around, it hasn't happened again ....

The framerate coming out of ABC's encoder (and from standard ABC stations) is still 60000/1001. Figure there are 75500 frames in a 21 minute broadcast. ABC drops 1800 of those and they can now show an extra 30 seconds worth of commercials. The total number of frames in a 30 minute timeslot hasn't changed from ~108000 and the framerate hasn't changed from 60000/1001, but ABC gets to charge for an extra 30 second slot with little noticeable effect for most viewers.

Yes, excellent description+posts, coyoteaz+sneals2000 ...

Although, I'm not so sure it isn't all that noticable in *some* cases ....

For instance, If anyone happened to capture it, Look at the opening scene from "Forrest Gump" from ABC HD's airing of it a few Saturdays back ... Look closely for a "skip" when the feather crosses in front of a broadcast tower in the background and also, the shot of the side of the Bus when it pulls up to the curb (you might especially want to keep your eye on the Chevy Citation ad on the side of the bus) ..... Unless I've just become "overly senstitive" to this, or in this case something was going on at local affiliate here, I believe anyone will see these little skips(easily) in the 720p/60 as broadcast ....

That being said, I highly doubt this issue is the cause of the issue described by the OP, as "choppy and jerky" sounds a LOT more severe and "continuous" so to speak, as in what would happen during 24fps source material as I described in other posts in this thread, if repeated fields were not being encoded, and also are not being drawn properly by the decoder ....


Also, from what I've seen, ABC rarely drops frames on the 9pm show since it usually goes over by 1-2 minutes anyway and that gives them more room for commercials as it is.


The annoying part of it is (espeically for those of us "returning" material to 24fps), you never know *when* they're going to do it, and, it *seems* they are dropping more frames in some cases vs. others, and/or sometimes the "skip" happens in places where it's not noticable at all .... BTW, I believe Fox is about the only broadcasdt network where I've *NOT* seen this happen, so far - (note: I haven't actually captured anything from CW, recently though) .... And, BTW, I've also compared streams from multiple network affiliates, and when "it happens", it happens in the same places, such as say, from ABC Dayton, OH affilate and ABC Cincinnati, OH affiliate ....

Thankfully though, a *lot* of the time they don't do it, such as you say, for LOST ....

Here's a quick list of some films aired over the past few months where I've found this issue to be especially Noticable or problematical (in spots) - To the extent that for reencoding these, I didn't decimate to 24fps -- :

Forrest Gump (ABC HD)
Runaway Bride (NBC HD)
Big (MyTV)
High Crimes (CBS HD)
Pretty Woman (ABC HD)

This one wasn't quite "as bad" :

White Christmas (MyTV)


But, for the following, I did not notice One noticable "skip" - even after "returning" these to 24fps (note: There's a lot more that could go on this "list" but I'm limiting it to full length films I've captured+reencoded using x264 or VC1 over the past few months) :

Miracle (ABC HD)
Madagascar (ABC HD)
Ice Age/Gone Nutty (Fox HD)
ELF (CBS HD)
Russell Girl (CBS HD - Note "hallmark" Hall of fame presentation)
Shrek 2 (ABC HD)
Incredibles (NBC HD)

It's not like there are frames missing from the broadcast and replaced with nothing. When frames are intentionally dropped, everything after that is shifted ahead in time to fill the gap. Your encoder doesn't notice the difference,

Break the 3:2 duplicate pattern and my encoder absolutely will notice and print a warning message telling me that it's attempting to resync to the pulldown pattern.

I have noticed the same type of issue watching Lost in HD via DirecTV. I can also receive ABC HD over the air, and do not see this issue when watching over the air. I can't definitively say that it's not an affiliate problem, since I am watching two different markets, but I'm guessing that this issue is being caused by DirecTV's re-compression of the signal. It looks like when they are approaching their bandwidth ceiling, they are choosing to duplicate frames to avoid other compression artifacts. I believe that I have also seen this issue on other HD locals on DirecTV, but I can't say for sure.
Unfortunately, the affiliate that I receive over the air can't seem to resolve their lip sync issues, so I have to choose between choppy video or bad lip sync...

I watch Lost on Comcast in Chicago (Mpeg2), and I usually don't have any problems at all. I'm watching on a 65" set, so even a small problem would be noticeable. This week's showing of Lost was 100% perfect for me. I have seen some problems in the past, but I've always assumed those were related to Comcast. The problems in the past have been very rare.

I have had the same problem with both episodes of New Amsterdam on FOX rendering it totally unwatchable on my DVR. Lost has done this to me in past as well, but has done 'okay' in the last couple of weeks.

I have had the same problem with both episodes of New Amsterdam on FOX rendering it totally unwatchable on my DVR. Lost has done this to me in past as well, but has done 'okay' in the last couple of weeks.


Who is your provider?

Who is your provider?

Verizon FIOS

I know that WLS used to use a Harris Flexicoder like most (all?) other ABC O&Os. There were plenty of complaints on AVS about blurring during NBA games caused by the use of the adaptive prefilter. The Flexicoder is practically an antique at this point and doesn't support any sort of useful quality enhancements like film detection, so unless WLS upgraded their encoder, that specific setting can't be the problem. If anyone can capture the TS from the OTA broadcast and upload 10 seconds of it during a segment airing at 24fps, we should be able to check and see if that setting is in effect.

It's worst for me with ABC, Lost in particular but I see it a little on CBS as well. Not NBC yet. I use Comcast but bought an OTA HD Antenna and see it there too. I don't think it's Comcasts fault. I was told it was a program encoding problem but it's maddening that there seems to be no way to track it with ABC. I wonder if they're even aware of it. Anyone know if the are ?

I know that WLS used to use a Harris Flexicoder like most (all?) other ABC O&Os .... The Flexicoder is practically an antique at this point and doesn't support any sort of useful quality enhancements like film detection, so unless WLS upgraded their encoder, that specific setting can't be the problem. If anyone can capture the TS from the OTA broadcast and upload 10 seconds of it during a segment airing at 24fps, we should be able to check and see if that setting is in effect .....



Yep, I had and have no idea whether or not WLS is still using a flexicoder.

Good idea on the sample -- (Dial up is fastest internet connection I have, BTW, so it'll have to be short for me to be of any help looking at it, such as via opening it up in Virtualdub and looking at it frame by frame ...) ---


There were plenty of complaints on AVS about blurring during NBA games caused by the use of the adaptive prefilter. .

Yep, We have a few stations here (not ABC affiliates) still using flexicoders, they've had or have that issue as well ....

I know that WLS used to use a Harris Flexicoder like most (all?) other ABC O&Os. There were plenty of complaints on AVS about blurring during NBA games caused by the use of the adaptive prefilter. The Flexicoder is practically an antique at this point and doesn't support any sort of useful quality enhancements like film detection, so unless WLS upgraded their encoder, that specific setting can't be the problem.ABC upgraded all their O&Os to Tandberg encoders.

Though it'll sound selfish, I'm glad to hear others are having the same issue I am. Im in the Chicago area and my HD is provided by Dish Network. It seems as though all ABC/WLS HD programming studders all of the time. No other HD or SD channels have the same issue. Any SD commercials broadcast on the HD station are fine. HD commercials studder as well.

Dish Network told me they have never heard of the problem when i called them on it. I had them bring a tech out to replace my 722 box. He was out during the day on Sat, so no HD programming was available to test with. I just assumed this was the issue.

I have also contacted Chicago ABC/WLS engineering, but as some of you said I got no response.

I walk right past the damn studio on State ST 5 days a week. I should hold up a sign during their news broadcast.

On a serious note, has anyone in the Chicago area considered tipping this to the other networks? I'm sure FOX/CBS/NBC would love to do a little investigating. Its certainly would put more pressue on ABC than asking them to fix the issue themselves.

My apologies to anyone that we did not get back to in the Engineering e-mail box.
I am aware of the complaints. Like you guys noted, it is mainly network content (like Lost) and generally through one of the DBS or Cable sytems that slices and dices our signal. Comcast converts our signal from 8VSB to QUAM modulation. Dish and DirecTV convert it to MPEG4 and compress the hell out of it. This does not absolve us completely! I have forwarded some of this info to ABC Labs and asked for their help. I wil update this thread within a week.
I do want to clear up a couple of comments in the threads. WLS-TV does not do any time compression to add commercial content. We never have and have no plans to do so. Secondly, we did upgrade our main ATSC encoder to a Harris NETvx (it is not a Tandberg unit)
Although I have Dish at home, the receivers are connected to OTA antenna. I have not experienced these issues using different receivers.
I did contact Dish Network NOC and they had investigated similar complaints and have determined( for what it is worth) that it is a receiver software issue.
Since most AVS Forum users are what I call "power users", I am including my personal e-mail account. The Engineering mail box gets flooded by spam that we have to wade through to get to the real messages. Please use Hassank03@comcast.net for quicker replies.

Kal HAssan
VP & Director of Engineering
WLS-TV Chicago

Just wanted to post to say that I'm also seeing this problem in the Chicago area on WLS. I have been seeing it while watching Lost in HD on my 622, the only ABC show I currently DVR.

In fact, I'm seeing it right now, during October Road. I switched back and forth several times between the OTA broadcast and the one through my receiver, and only the one through Dish is choppy. The one over my antenna looks just fine.

I've only seen this on ABC, and oddly enough only during the actual program. HD advertisements look just fine. Something is definitely strange, and I suspect something's up with Dish, but other than that I'm not sure if its worth calling them.

WLS-TV does not do any time compression to add commercial content.


AS several of us here have suspected.

But, if I may be so bold, what about ABC, do you know/can you definitively say whether or not they ever do that(at network level) ?

Just a thought, from the first post on this thread :


There are about 5 other individuals from Chicago, Texas, and Denver that have all also experienced the same problem. One indicated he was on Comcast, and two indicated that they were on OTA.


Just a thought, assuming in their case it wasn't a reception problem on their end, If either of those two with the issue OTA are in Chicago area/receiving the issue from WLS, Perhaps it might help Kal if he knew the make/model of their receivers, or if their specific reports could be sent to him.

I've seen the same pixilation/freeze thing and am in Seattle (Comcast). Worse for me though is the video leading the audio. It's like watching a poorly dubbed foreign film.

Verizon FIOS

Rutgar,
Have you noticed judder on the majority of your HD channels through Fios? It drives me nuts, though I admit I have become very sensitive to it.

Every time I turn around, I seem to find a new problem between Fios and my new TV. I also get the "bevel effect" if I try to watch HD through HDMI.

Same thing tonight during Lost.

Anyone contacted Dish about this? Think I might call up tomorrow evening.

I did some research and with the help of Harris tech's disabled the "Film Detect" setting on our new NetVX encoder (unchecked the box). Hopefully that fixes the video stutter! Please post a reply if you had this issue and whether the fix helped/or not.
Thanks.
Kal Hassan
VP & Dir of Engineering
WLS-TV Chicago

I hope it works! Keeping my fingers crossed and thanks for your effort!

Finally the stutter was gone. I only watched about 5 minutes of Lost (basketball fan), but there was no more stutter! Thanks Kal :D

Same here -- NO stutter during Lost broadcast 3/20. Can't vouch for dish or cable, but OTA the stutter is gone. Turning off film detect on the encoder seems to have done the trick.

Thanks, Kal, for getting involved and fixing this.

Just had a chance to view the 3/13 & 3/20 episodes of Lost last night. I am on Dish. The 3/13 showed the judder/studder. The 3/20 episode was solid...no indication of the problem after Kal indicated that they changed the setting on the encoder. Kudos Kal for looking into this and making the change to fix this issue.

Thanks,
E

I live in Atlanta, GA. and have noticed the "jerky" video on Eli Stone in HD. I have DTV (HR-21/HD receiver) and a Sony XBR5. I was worried it was my TV. It almost is like lowering the refresh rate on your computer monitor until you see the flicker. Glad to know I am not loosing my mind!!!!!:p

I am watching Lost right now and it has the same issue. It has been doing this for the last 3 weeks. Seems like it is only Lost (I dont watch much else on ABC). I also live in Atlanta and have Dish Network

I can verify that it's still happening on ABC primetime here in Atlanta...WSB-TV via DirecTV into a HD20. Poop...it's very disconcerting.

Glad I'm not the only one seeing / having this problem. I capture Lost from two stations (Dayton and Cincinnati) and the screwy telecining is driving me nuts. I've put my re-encodes on hold while I try to work out a way to 'straighten it out'.

The place I most frequently see time compression (or stretching) is TNT-HD, and this does NOT look like that. It is a chore, but you can dup count the TNT-HD broadcasts and figure out the oddball frame rate. I do this with Lost and get about the right number of 'real' frames in a given segment, but the dup pattern wanders a LOT. I real PITA :(

Ok, this is going to get long and I don't think it's applicable to the issue several folks are seeing and reporting with specific equipment+specific affiliates -- which IMO is often likely to be related to "repeat field detection", or "film detection" or similar settings being turned on those stations encoders - such as was fixed at WLS per Kal's report --- So -- anyone not interested in this feel free to "skip it" if you like. Wasn't sure whether it might be better to send this(or some of this) to plughplover via PM or post it here, but since some of it relates to earlier comments made by myself or others in this thread, here goes anyway :

I capture Lost from two stations (Dayton and Cincinnati)


I should say except for a short test around the time of my earlier post where I commented about it(lost), otherwise I haven't looked carefully at what they do for "Lost". As I don't reencode it, and usually don't capture it either. So, my earlier comment about it was only based on that short test+others comments. Given I have also seen instances of the "odd telecining" you refer to regarding some other programming I've captured(not limited to ABC HD), that was not really enough evidence to make the comment I did about it.

That short test menitioned above involved a short (5 min or so as I recall) capture of either WCPO-DT or WKEF-DT TS during "Lost". After running it through DGindex(honoring pulldown flags), I ran it through the following AVIsynth script and didn't notice any problems. Note: And thankfully, this has worked just fine for much of the 24fps source material I've captured from 720p sources. Including from ABC HD from WCPO-DT/cincinnati or WKEF-DT/Dayton :

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\dgdecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb.dll")
MPEG2Source("c:\HDtest\losttest.d2v")
SelectEven()
Decimate()

Oh, FWIW, Only thing I have noticed that is(or was) an issue specific to one of those stations involves the following : It's been a couple of months since I've captured anything from WKEF-DT, but I have noticed on any occasion between about dec~feb that I did get anything from them for which I ran through a TS error check/repair process(usually using the tool "MPEGrepair.exe"), WKEF-DT audio stream has (or had) frequent audio timestamp gaps where they shouldn't be, at least when ABC HD programming is airing ... Never have seen this from WCPO-DT.

They are seemingly random, but on average, there is(or was) PTS audio timestamp gap (during ABC HD at least) from WKEF-DT about every 5 minutes or so -- It varies, and for instance it might be say, 5, 6 or 7 minutes between the timestamp gaps. Note they are not specific to when there are commercial breaks ....

I ran into some problems with that regarding losing sync for the audio/video streams when using certian software for demux/cutting/remuxing. Usually I usually like to use a frame level editor, specifically Cutterman for the cuts, and I have to demux audio/video streams prior to making the cuts ... Often I'll use W6RZ's (dr1394's) xport demuxer, or ProjectX to demux, but sometimes I'll use MPEG2streamclip for demuxing as well ...

But for instance, I've found if I use HDTVtoMPEG2 ("H2M" - If you're not familar with that tool, it's name doesn't describe much of what you can do with it, it does packet level editing, strips unwanted PID's from a TS/etc) for the cuts+stripping unneeded streams out, then run it through MPEG2repair.exe, then demux it with MPEG2streamclip -- So far for anything I've tried doing it that way has turned out OK even with the audio timestamp gaps that remain in there (Mplex for instance will Mux it just fine+no problems reencoding it with X.264 for video/neroaac for audio into a MP4 container - I usually use MeGUI + X.264 for AVC/MPEG4 encoding) ....

I meant to contact them/report it to them at some point, as I've talked to a couple of their engineers before, and they are fine folks ... but I know they are busy, and it doesn't seem to be causing any problems for me, or anyone else other than in my case as I noted above, so have never gotten around to doing it, and haven't "checked it" in a while so am not sure whether or not it's still happening ....


And the screwy telecining is driving me nuts.... ... I do this with Lost and get about the right number of 'real' frames in a given segment, but the dup pattern wanders a LOT.


I've definitely ran into that (just not specifically with Lost), for certian programs, and not just from ABC ...

Part I:

Do note For the most part, The "oddities" I mentioned earlier involving the airings of certian films I specifically listed in earlier post appear to involve frames that just aren't there, as the material was broadcast, but that seemingly should be there. In that sense, specifically, I'm addressing it as a seperate issue from the apparently "screwy telecining" which I've also ran into on occasion, although it might be a related issue involved. As, note that I did not count/write down the frame repeat patterns as the material was broadcast in any of those cases, and also note that the apparent missing frames in these cases do not correspond to TS continuity or TEI errors, nor are they, apparently, specific to either WCPO-DT or WKEF-DT's streams(our local Cincy+dayton ABC affiliates) and there are also no "corresponding" errors in the audio stream at that point so it's not a "reception related" issue.

If one looked very closely, in many cases, you could actually notice the "stuttering" where the dropped frames were exactly as it was broadcast(720p/60) - I even tested it and noticed it "live" on one of my Decoders(OTA HD STB/receiver) during the broadcast of a couple of those films.

It's also fairly easy to tell a frame appears to be missing when you're stepping through frames 1 by 1 and you have a moving object (such as a bus pulling up to a curb, or say, cars travelling across Golden Gate bridge), that suddenly "jumps" ahead as if the all the cars/bus suddenly increased their speed to an extent the "jump"(the distance the cars "move" on the bridge between one frame and the next) is more significant than happens anywhere else within 100's of frames before or after it ... .... Maybe that's not a "time compression" thing though, and perhaps involves some other issue, perhaps occuring during a telecining or a editing process ....

Part II.

Anyhow, back to the seemingly "screwy telecing" --- I especially recall counting the repeated frame patterns/# of frames for ABC HD broadcast of "Grinch", and "Shrek the Halls" as aired on one occasion(I think over a weekend) this past Holiday season ... I captured those from WCPO-DT, and it was so weird, I thought WCPO might have been having an issue at the time that was "fixed on Monday" so to speak, and I'm still wondering whether or not that might be the case ....

I recall I went through about 4000 frames of Grinch (1000 frames in 4 different "spots") and about 3000 frames for "shrek the Halls" and wrote down the patterns of the repeated frames as well as figured out the frame rate (and yes, that sort of thing is defintely a chore) -- I don't have my scribbled out notes on it handy but I think from that, I had calculated the frame rate at about 27fps for "Grinch"(at least for the 4000 frames I checked). And I do have a comment I put in a AVIsynth script that says I figured 25.88FPS for "Shrek the Halls" -- again, at least the frames/dupes I counted ....

For "Grinch" I recall there were even places where you'd have no dupes in a sequence of as many as 10 or 11(or more, I want to say I recall as many as a string of 15 or 16 of them, but that's just going by my relatively poor memory) frames, as well as other oddities where the pattern of repeated frames changed all over the place ...

In the spots where there were long sequences with no repeated frames -- I recalled speculating whether or not it might be possible that some of those frames were being interpolated/blended(presumably at ABC) -- In other words, I wondered if maybe some of those frames were not really "there" in the original source film ... Difficult to explain, but for instance, during "grinch" I noticed all that appeared to change in some of the "non-repeated frames" during the long strings of non-duplicates appeared to be what looked like a sort of "motion highlights" drawn in by an animator ... But maybe they weren't really "drawn in" by an animator and were something that were interpolated electronically ? I don't know, If I had say, a DVD release of "Grinch" it might have been interesting to compare the broadcast to the DVD frame by frame in some spots and see what happened ...


I real PITA


Definitely is A PITA when that happens ... When I've ran into this sort of thing(or the apparently 'dropped frames' issue I mentioned above), Basically+generally, for 720p sources, my usual current "solution" is, if running it through The following portion of AVIsynth script doesn't work --- generally nowadays If I'm going to reencode it at all, I instead just keep the frames just as broadcast, and just reencode it as 60p. But, thankfully, after running it through DGindex(honoring pulldown flags) using the following in AVIsynth script has worked perfectly for most of the 24fps material telecined+broadcast as 720/60p I have reencoded, including from ABC, MyTV, Fox (Note that It's allways worked for everything I've done that's 23.976fps source material on Fox ) ....

LoadPlugin("C:\Program files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb.dll")
SelectEven()
Decimate()

But I have done some experimenting, and I have had some limited success in some cases dealing with this "screwy telecining issue" when it occurs. But not to the extent I get rid of all the dupes, or end up not getting a frame dropped every now and then that shouldn't be. On the one hand, For the most part when this sort of thing happens I've messed with it enough that I've decided for my purposes, I don't really need it to be "perfect", and I don't mind if there are dupes in there(or missing frames that should be there) which aren't really noticable(or not very noticable), or occur rarely in a noticable fashion on playback. But OTOH, sometimes they can be quite annoying, especially if it's something you can't "minimize" to the extent it only happens only once or twice in a noticable fashion over say, 30 minutes of the program ... When that happens, and I can't find a way to "fix it" or minimize the number of noticable dupes or dropped frames, that's when I'm likely to just reencode it as broadcast(60p for 720p sources), if I decide to reencode it at all.

Probably the best success I've had with it has been using either Fdecimate AVisynth filter (with careful setting of threshold parameter), and *maybe* for instance, if I recall the best think I could find for "Shrek The Halls" christmas special which aired on ABC HD ended up being something(with tdecimate) like this (with notes) :

tdecimate(mode=2,rate=23.976,maxndl=7,m2PA=true) # - NOTE Maxndl=7 worked "so-#so" for "shrek" at 23.976fps but there were still "glitches" as that's apparently not quite enough FPS - calculated its framerate at 25.88fps by counting repeated frames/etc ....

For a MyTV HD broadcast of "White christmas", and "Big", I ended up with (mostly) good results using the following -- At least this is the best thing I could "find", and seemed to work especially well for "White Christmas" .... While this resulted in some blended frames -- but only a few of them throughout the entire film that are "noticable" if you are looking for them -- If you step through it frame by frame, there ends up being probably some 10's(possibly 100's of blended frames), and possibly some dupes I didn't find :

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\dgdecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb.dll")
MPEG2Source("c:\HDreencode\wchristmas.d2v")
SelectEven()
Decimate(Mode=3,threshold=2.5,quality=3) # - Note - Mode 3 is for Hybrid handling of Video+film, 23.976fps output

----------

Anyway, When I do run into a "problem" with this, I have several AVisynth scripts set up with different filters+parameters for decimating the dupes out that have worked fairly well before in certian specific cases, including a few more in addition to the examples above. I've done quite a bit of experimenting with it at times, sometimes the following also involves further investigation "counting the dupes"/patterns manually -- but what I'll generally do is (after running it through DGindex) "test" the different scripts (using virtualdubMPEG2 to view the output) and sometimes some short "test" encodes of short clips from the material ---- Usually with a MPEG2 software encoder --(I prefer HC encoder currently, I use it for reencodes to DVD as well) and 1 pass Constant quantization for speed ... If it is easily apparent that some careful tweaking of the values for various parameters for various AVisynth filters may be advantagous, then I go on to that next step .... Much the same is true when I run into something like this when attempting to do a IVTC from 1080i sources ....


I've put my re-encodes on hold while I try to work out a way to 'straighten it out'.


Nothing I've come up with is a "real solution" to this issue of course. And, in each case of occurance it seems, it takes a lot of trial and error work to try to find something that at least "somewhat" works. So if you do figure out anything, let us know .... FWIW, I can't vouch for it's "accuracy" but I think I do recall seeing a post elsewhere from a fellow who reported good results for "Lost" using "fdecimate" avisynth filter as follows :

FDecimate(Threshold=.8) # Set threshold parameter per Fdecimate documentation/with fdecimate test script using metrics

Note: Without testing it I don't know for sure, but I suspect the threshold value of .8 may not have been "found" via the procedure described in the Fdecimate readmes, as usually it seems to end up being a threshold value something higher than that ...


It is a chore, but you can dup count the TNT-HD broadcasts and figure out the oddball frame rate.


Yeah, Of course if you are going to reencode to "Fix" such "oddball framerate"(which is possible, such as with the use of certian AVisynth filters settings) - where you want to "get rid" of the time compression by returning the material to it's original frame rate(presumably 23.976fps for most film or 24p HD video material, possibly something different for some animation) then there's also the issue of what do to about the then as broadcast out-of-sync(with the oddball frame rate) audio stream ....

Oh, I should probably note, while there is not a lot of content I'm interested in reencoding/archiving, It is nice to have HD for some content handy, mostly films which I've oftentimes seen before(even when some of the content has been edited for broadcast/etc). And, I don't feel "bad about it" as I think I'm entitled to "one copy" for personal use, and because I also watch plenty of "live TV"(with the commercials) and purchase plenty of DVD's (and possibly in the future Blu-ray discs) .... Which means for the most part, for me, doing this sort of thing is more just for the fun of it and seeing what can be done .. but that also means I'm often not "motivated" to dig too deep in many cases when I run into some of these screwy issues ...

I've tried all the approaches you mention, and some you don't. None of them result in smooth motion across pans etc throughout the show. The selecteven/decimate approach gives the worst results, since with the varying dup pattern the selecteven can drop frames that have no dups (yes, that happens). My best results have been with tdecimate in conjunction with a script that conditionally drops&dups frames (won't go into details here). It was this latter approach that gave me the idea on how to 'straigten it out' but I've got some coding to do for my 'proof of concept' test, which I will certainly share if it proves successful.

Anyway, as I said it's nice to know I'm not the only one seeing these issues; except for one person I've corresponded with at doom9, I've not seen this discussed anywhere...

Oop oop ack...Harry Potter PoA on last night seemed really bad here in the ATL. Again, ABC affiliate WSB-TV via DirecTV into a HD20.

I've tried all the approaches you mention, and some you don't.


As I said, I didn't mention everything I've used and I've never tried any of them with "lost" (as I've never reencoded it except for the short "test" mentioned earlier), but in any case similiar results occur for those as well. i.e. none of them are "perfect" and how well any particular thing I've tried works "varies" depending upon the program/etc.


The selecteven/decimate approach gives the worst results, since with the varying dup pattern the selecteven can drop frames that have no dups (yes, that happens).


Yeah, It would when there are no repeated frames. Which as noted earlier regarding my specific "grinch" example just seems plain "weird" to me for long strings of non-duplicate frames to be present in 60p as broadcast for programming which is 23.976 fps/film based ......

update: Of course if we use selectodd instead of selecteven, you get the the same thing, except different non-dupes are dropped ... :end update

My reason for including the selecteven/decimate examples was to demonstrate that #1), it works perfectly for *most* material I've reencoded -- Including recent films broadcast on ABC HD such as "The Terminal", "Miracle", and "shrek 2" as captured from either WCPO-DT/WKEF-DT ...., but #2). it doesn't work for *everything* (Films such as Forrest gump", or the "Grinch", "shrek the halls/etc) from the same sources .... With the intention of hopefully helping to back-up your assertion that it seems like there is some "weird telecining" that is going on, but also providing examples that demonstrates it only happens in some cases, with some programs, but not others ....

My best results have been with tdecimate in conjunction with a script that conditionally drops&dups frames (won't go into details here). It was this latter approach that gave me the idea on how to 'straigten it out' but I've got some coding to do for my 'proof of concept' test, which I will certainly share if it proves successful.


Please do (or at doom9/etc -- I don't particpate in several of those other forums, as particpating on this fourm takes up most of my spare time for this sort of thing but I do read them) ...

I had read a thread on doom9 about this, specifically recall a detailed post along those lines from a fellow with a handle that included "plugh" in it, I figured that might have been you ;)

So far, I haven't gotten around to delving into what
"that fellow" suggested, or trying any of the ideas/suggestions "that fellow" made in that post ...

Oop oop ack...Harry Potter PoA on last night seemed really bad here in the ATL. Again, ABC affiliate WSB-TV via DirecTV into a HD20.

Can confirm the problem is here for me as well in ATL. Currently watching Desperate Housewives (no comments please) with DirecTV on HR21-700. It looks almost robotic at times when watching lips; the stutter is very irritating. I never noticed it before Christmas, on an older HR20-100 and previously on Comcast.

I see choppiness on 2 HD channels in Raleigh - ABC 11-1 prime time and channel 28-1 (forget what station letters are).

I see this whether I use direct cable feed or over the air antenna I have (cheap $20 one from Radioshack).

Was this problem resolved? If so, what was the solution? I feared it was my TV (Samsung 46LN630 1080p, 120Hz) but sounds like it's a different issue.

Thanks.

Lost has had the issue since the premiere. The judder effect is very noticeable. I'm using Directv HD DVR HR22 to record ABC in HD (WPLG channel 10 South Florida). Anyone else seeing this still? It is annoying.

The first two episodes of Lost were doing this, but it was fine last night. I live in Peoria, Illinois, (WHOI), and have DirecTV. When I see the stutter, I switch from the D* feed, (HR20), to my OTA feed, and the stutter goes away. Very annoying.

I've seen jittering on a number of ABC HD shows for some time. You can really see it on quick head movements. Sometimes I can decrease it by changing th Cinemotion/Motion Enhancer settings on my Sony but not always. It's a shame because ABC's filmed series are some of the best looking available on HD. Sharpness, detail, color saturation and brightness are usually first rate.

The over-the-air broadcasts of ABC (at least Grey's Anatomy and Samantha Who, for sure) have been time squeezed by leaving out frames. These shows are originally shot in film mode at 24 frames per second. Then 3:2 Pulldown is applied to make it compatible with USA ATSC or NTSC broadcasting.

After that process, ABC drops occasional frames to shorten the show enough to fit in another commercial . The 3:2 Pulldown, alone, will add a slight amount of judder to any film based show that has been telecined with 3:2 Pulldown. It's usually not a deal breaker, but it is slightly noticeable as a continous stutter or jerkiness (judder) during panning scenes.

"Luckily" we have a modern TV that can do Reverse 3:2 Pulldown to remove the telecining that was applied. Normally this would give you back the original motion cadence of the original film, with perfectly smooth motion during panning.

The problem comes when any form of Reverse 3:2 Pulldown is enabled (read: Cinemotion 1 or 2). The Cinemotion processor chokes every time it comes across a missing frame in the cadence. It has to resync itself over a couple of frames to re-identify where it is in the cadence and you get a big jump in a panning scene. This happens about once every few seconds on squeezed ABC shows.

The only way to get passable motion on your modern TV is to turn off it's modern features (reverse 3:2 Pulldown aka cinemotion) and put up with the inherent judder of 3:2 pulldown.

Thanks ABC for being so greedy that you have to obsolete the features on my TV so you can make more money!

Maybe complaining to the local affiliate would help as they might pass it up to the network.?.

The last couple of episodes of Grey's Anatomy and Desperate Housewives have not been time squeezed. I though maybe ABC had dropped that ridiculous practice, but the new show "The Unusuals" is time squeezed! At least the episode on May 6 2009 was.

I don't get it. Don't any of ABC's executives have a good enough TV to have 3:2 pulldown? Or don't they watch their own network?

I've noticed skipped frames on ABC during live sports events (like the Cavs/Hawks game tonight). Very annoying. Never been sure if it's a local issue (WEWS Cleveland) or DirecTV.

FWIW they don't seem to be simply dropping frames, but rather blending 2 frames into 1. Same result of completely breaking anything that tries to remove the duplicate frames, but usually not noticeable to anyone watching at 60Hz. Any problems on live broadcasts are unrelated because they can't very well change the duration of something that isn't known in advance.

I've noticed skipped frames on ABC during live sports events (like the Cavs/Hawks game tonight). Very annoying. Never been sure if it's a local issue (WEWS Cleveland) or DirecTV.I've never had a problem with live programming, but I only have over-the-air signals. You most likely have a DirecTV problem, too.

FWIW they don't seem to be simply dropping frames, but rather blending 2 frames into 1.


I've seen them drop frames instead(w/o the dupes in that case, framerate ends up being something less than the 23.976fps it should be) - but only for broadcasts of a few films, and I think I've only seen ABC do it that way.

But, the blended frames seems most common. If I recall correctly, at one time or another, I've seen all the Broadcast nets(except PBS) do the Blends, some more than others, some shows or broadcasts of Feature films, but not others ... Given the blends aren't dupes in this case, Framerate w/o the dupes ends up something higher than 23.976fps .....

I don't go to the effort all that often to go through sections of material frame by frame+count 100's or 1000's of frames/check which are dupes which aren't and what the pattern involved is --- it's not all that difficult to do, but it is a bit time consuming ... But (w/o the dupes) I don't think I've seen it work out to be less than about 22.55 FPS or so(with the occasinal dropped frame/but w/o blends), or higher than about 25.55Fps(with the blends/probably no dropped frames) or so (and again, not just talking about ABC here) ... Obviously, the more frames that are blends, the higher the framerate+(to me anyway), and the more more "obvious" it is/more likely it is to be noticable ....

I suppose what we'll never know is whether in any given case they are getting say 15~30 seconds more time for a commercial, or 15~30 seconds that doesn't have to be cut from the program material .... Either way, I can definitely see the merits of it, nevertheless I still don't like it .....


Same result of completely breaking anything that tries to remove the duplicate frames


Well, there are tools available such that it's really not a problem to remove the dupes in such cases --- The real problem issue involves ending up with a "standard" framerate and sync'ing the audio .... There are also tools available which will blend frames so you can get rid of the dupes and get to 23.976fps -- which works fine in the "dropped frames" case(except for the frames that aren't there of course) --- Tdecimate's Hybrid processing for instance ---

But, you have a real mess when you already have blended frames in the source you're working with and you need to blend "again" so to speak to get to say, 23.976fps ..... or for 23.976fps with pulldown(TFF/RFF) flags if say, you're re-encoding for DVD, which is something I often do) "on top" of the blends in the source for the 29.97fps for 480i or 1080i or 59.94fps for 720p telecined broadcast .... You can't really get all the original frames back when you have these blends .. I've experimented with getting rid of the blends(there is one tool I know of that can do this - Srestore), but with what I've tried there ends up being too many missing frames ....

Update: Oh, I should also probably note that it's vfr(variable frame rate), such that(for a 720p example) you have sequence or sequences of say 5, or 10 or 60 or 100 frames or whatever with 2:3 repeating pattern (I.e NDNDD where N=new frame, D=duplicate) which are "as they should be" and results in 23.976fps if you take out the dupes --- interspersed with sequences of say, 7, 8, 10 or 40 frames or whatever with a different pattern(such as say 7 frames before a dupe, or 13 or even 15 or more with blends here and there and without a dupe, or even a NDNDDD here or there) and different framerate -- such that framerates I mentioned as differing from the 23.976fps they should be during a specific program(w/o the dupes) of say, 25.55fps was calculated based on say, 1000 frames I "examined" .... Obivously another problem for keeping the audio in sync if you merely try to remove the dupes ....


, but usually not noticeable to anyone watching at 60Hz.


Probably, but It's sometimes pretty noticable to me as broadcast for some reason given I've spent some time looking at these things slowly frame by frame ...

It's tough to generalize what happens in any given case with these blends, as it depends on how much people or objects have moved from one frame to the next. But generally speaking, when I have found it "noticable", What I usually notice when you have the blends in the source and I view it in real time("as broadcast" might be a better way to say it) is a noticable blur in the sections of the blended frames where there is movement/etc ... even small "slow" movements where you normally wouldn't expect to see it quite as pronounced as the blended frames make it ....

Anyway, I don't really know, but would imagine there are directors/actors/producers/production crews who probably aren't very happy about this sort of thing, especially, if they know about it ;) ... I also wonder about what the folks who do the Telecining work think about some of this, as I don't know, but I'm thinking this probably isn't something they are doing (although I suppose it could be) ....

And of course, It's certianly entirely different issue than those decoders out there that break("drop" frames so to speak) when the TFF/RFF flags are sent with 720p and 23.976fps source content ...

I'm sure I've tried the same tools as you. Here in Dallas we have it even worse since WFAA converts the 720p ABC network feed to 1080i for broadcast, which adds a whole new layer of oddball behavior when trying to go back to unique progressive frames. Bobbing to 1080p60 is an option, but the potential loss of even more resolution means it isn't the best choice.

Yeah, The Cincy MyTV affiliate has been converting MyTVs 720p to 1080i since they started doing Raycom HD sports games Last fall ... It's a real mess, and there seems to be something especially odd going on with them regarding blended fields which I didn't expect, but which I've noticed using mode 7 with TFM for field matching helps a bit .... Using This in a AVSscript was about the best I could do with it with one of the MyTV films :


tfm(d2v="G:\hdreencode\IntoBlue\IntoBlue.d2v",mode=7,pp=1).tdeint(order=1,field=1,clip2=orig)
Tdecimate(Hybrid=1,blockx=128,blocky=128)

-----------------------------------------------------------


Anyway, If I'm re-encoding with X.264 and not resizing, when the source is 720p and I run into a real mess, I just leave it at 720/60p for reencoding and call it a day .... 1080i though, I've tried it that way(leave it as it is) with both X.264 and VC1 (+just leaving it interlaced), and it did work, but It really almost made more sense overall to just leave it as it was encoded (which would be fine if I had a way to archive to something with greater capacity than DVD R ) ....

What really stinks about it for me is when resizing+reencoding for DVD-video (also requires 709 to 601 colorspace conversion) ... Which works so nicely when you can get 23.976 "clean", original frames per second and add the Pulldown flags --- When you can't do that, a bob(for 1080i)/resize then sep fields/selectevery 4,1,2 or 4,0,3(depending on field order) Then Weave+encoding Interlaced works pretty well, but aliasing (from the resize) you end up with is sometimes pretty nasty .... Interlacing it (if it's a 720p source turning it into 1280x720/60i) and doing an interlaced resize, or(if a 1080i source) keeping it interlaced/doing an interlaced resize(correcting for field shift to keep the fields aligned) works really nicely and gets rid of the aliasing issue for the resize, but also adds a "blur" (lowers effective resolution), such that the results probably aren't much if any better than if you'd used, say a consumer DVD recorder .... (in other words, Not all that much different from a Old VHS recording) .....

---------------

Update: Oh, -- On another note -- I just watched "Lost" Season finale via DTV Pal DVR, and easily noticed during a couple of the quicker Pans there were apparent and obvious dropped frames (didn't see those any anywhere else) .... I don't know if that might be something going on with the DTV Pal DVR(haven't seen that before, but I did just upgrade to F207 firmware - Am using Sony KD34XBR960 DirectView CRT, outputting 1080i from the DTVPal DVR via HDMI ) but I do know plughplover has mentioned running into "oddities" on those pans during Lost, before, perhaps earlier in this thread ...