What do you think of this site that I ran across:

http://brickwall.com/index.htm

I like the fact that it doesn't use MOVs. I don't like the fact that 'somehow' it 'instantly' inserts 180uF of electrolytic capacitors into the line. Electrolytic caps are in many cases the first thing to blow, and I'm not sure (since they don't say) how exactly the caps are inserted into the circuit...

Comments?

You are a troublemaker?:D Arguing surge protection with you is like ramming my car into a "brick wall". Always trying to start trouble on threads.:D:)

Brickwall surge protection has been around for years. Much longer than Curt will fix your CRT projector.

No, actually what intrigued me was that they seem to be slamming other products, but offered about as much technical info as the competition..... very little.

Their 'no MOV' approach is different than many other surge protection companies. Despite the arguing here on the last thread, there was a lot of good info there, and I was indeed proven wrong re lighning strikes, as various areas of the continent have different real world scenarios when it comes to incoming 'issues' with the power line.

No, actually what intrigued me was that they seem to be slamming other products, but offered about as much technical info as the competition..... very little.

Their 'no MOV' approach is different than many other surge protection companies. Despite the arguing here on the last thread, there was a lot of good info there, and I was indeed proven wrong re lighning strikes, as various areas of the continent have different real world scenarios when it comes to incoming 'issues' with the power line.

That lobotomy must be helping.:):D You admit you've been proven wrong. Won't be the last time. HA!:(

Yes it will. I'll never admit it again..;)

Besides, I did use the 'in my experience' disclaimer before stating that the conditioners linked to in the other thread would do nothing for the damage that I've seen caused by dropped neutrals. So there. I would still like to hear from the AV Doogies/specos of the world here whether this particular product has any merit with the say the manufacturer says it's designed.

What good info? They still can't serve to protect a house.

Curt, Hopefully I'm not stepping into a private joke between you and Steve. It's been ages since the electrical courses required for us gearheads but if I'm following this, http://brickwall.com/conditn.htm, correctly the capacitor aren't directly in the hot/neutral circuit but across it. There is a series inductor directly in the circuit, however.

I have a wire in version of one of these in the dedicated circuit for my system. There's also a surge protector in the breaker box for the house and stand alone surge protection for the equipment on my system. The stand alone protection/line conditioning is the old Niles stuff. Niles is more traditional MOVs, gas tubes and RCI circuits. I live in flyover country where lightning is a common occurrence so went with this staged approach. Since Brickwall dumps the excess to neutral and MOVs to ground there isn't supposed to be an interaction between these different pieces of filtering and surge protection.

One worry I had with brickwall was the inductor blocking current changes needed for my amps. If this happens I haven't heard it. Then again I didn't hear an improvement either when these pieces were added. Perhaps the power around here is in pretty good shape or the folks who designed the power supplies in my A/V equipment did their homework.

If you search the archives there was a Q&A with one of the Brickwall guys some years back.

I'm sure a million people now will jump on and tell me where I screwed up.

What do you think of this site that I ran across:

http://brickwall.com/index.htm

I like the fact that it doesn't use MOVs. I don't like the fact that 'somehow' it 'instantly' inserts 180uF of electrolytic capacitors into the line. Electrolytic caps are in many cases the first thing to blow, and I'm not sure (since they don't say) how exactly the caps are inserted into the circuit...

Comments?

Well, the failure mode should be that much more impressive!

Yes it will. I'll never admit it again..;)

Besides, I did use the 'in my experience' disclaimer before stating that the conditioners linked to in the other thread would do nothing for the damage that I've seen caused by dropped neutrals. So there. I would still like to hear from the AV Doogies/specos of the world here whether this particular product has any merit with the say the manufacturer says it's designed.


I have seen these types of units....but have never had the chance to actually test one, nor do any of the commercial/industrial manufacturers use this type of surge 'diversion' technology. I wonder why:eek::p:rolleyes:

...had a chance to peruse the site. The manufacturer does not list any of the standard UL tests or capabilities via standard UL ratings requirements. The Challenge here is, will this unit pass standard industry tests??

I have seen these types of units....but have never had the chance to actually test one, nor do any of the commercial/industrial manufacturers use this type of surge 'diversion' technology. I wonder why:eek::p:rolleyes:


I think you are mistaken about that. The brickwall stuff is tech from this company, http://www.zerosurge.com/

The manufacturer does not list any of the standard UL tests or capabilities via standard UL ratings requirements. The Challenge here is, will this unit pass standard industry tests??

Since the Brickwall stuff is basically a clone of the Zero surge stuff, I'd say it's been UL tested. http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=FOKY.E307387&ccnshorttitle=Electromagnetic+Interference+Filters&objid=1078408688&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073986712&sequence=1 The Brickwall model numbers are almost exactly the same model numbers Zero surge used as well. Same products, different name.

I think you are mistaken about that. The brickwall stuff is tech from this company, http://www.zerosurge.com/


I could be wrong, but I work at a number of Ford and GM plants in the Midwest....never having seen these units. Additionally, I work at a number of other Fortune 500 companies which use the 'big' brand name suppression devices including IT, most of the stuff used in industry is typically MOV based. Where is the actual customer list for this brand.

I still don't see the UL testing certifications for standard transient, ring wave, 90 degree and 180 degree surge. They are only safety certifications, filtering certifications....which means that you can safely plug this stuff into the wall and the units act somewhat like filters.

Since the Brickwall stuff is basically a clone of the Zero surge stuff, I'd say it's been UL tested. http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=FOKY.E307387&ccnshorttitle=Electromagnetic+Interference+Filters&objid=1078408688&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073986712&sequence=1 The Brickwall model numbers are almost exactly the same model numbers Zero surge used as well. Same products, different name.


Yes, it's been certified as a cord connected filter:eek:

I believe it meets UL1499 2nd edition and the optional part which is a sort of durability testing where the unit is subjected to surges of a predefined type and number with the final result is that it doesn't break down. I might have a copy of it somewhere if you want AV. As far as the ring wave testing goes, AFAIK, this is not part of the requirements for UL1499. It's a very useful feature IMO (one which my present system doesn't incorporate) as is sine wave tracking. One of the representatives from one of those outfits (Brickwall, Zero Surge, whomever) never addressed the concern that the unit, since it does not contaminate ground, would guard against a surge that just happened to come up the ground wire.

As to your comments on not finding it in the places you looked, a while back, when I was interested in protecting against surges, the few places that I contacted (a local telecom company, a satellite tracking installation, etc.) knew nothing about the device. Further, in their literature, they state it's in use by the military. I tried to get more info on that by contacting my cousins son, a General in the air force, my soon to be ex-brother in law who was in both Gulf conflicts, my son's friend, a Captain responsible for Patriot missile defence systems in Korea, Kuwait, and Iraq, did some digging and found no instances of these devices being used anywhere. Not in various command centers, semi-permanent facilities, just nowhere. I can only assume that the military buys a lot of things. Some that they use. Some that they test. Some that just don't work. Just like I'm sure there'll be purchases by the military for Dunkin Donuts, doesn't mean it's an endorsement of them as a preferred supplier.

My father-in-law is retired from Motorola as a top government secure communications equipment account executive for the company. Years ago, when I first bought brickwall products I asked him about their design. He told me that he saw that type of surge protection in multi-million dollar government communications facilities in the US. It was used for mission critical facilities.

... One of the representatives from one of those outfits (Brickwall, Zero Surge, whomever) never addressed the concern that the unit, since it does not contaminate ground, would guard against a surge that just happened to come up the ground wire. ..

Do any surge protectors cover the ground too? From what I remember seeing on the MOV type they dump the surge to ground. Does this work the other way too and dump a surge on the ground to neutral?

[quote=Chu Gai;13200936]I believe it meets UL1499 2nd edition and the optional part which is a sort of durability testing where the unit is subjected to surges of a predefined type and number with the final result is that it doesn't break down. I might have a copy of it somewhere if you want AV. As far as the ring wave testing goes, AFAIK, this is not part of the requirements for UL1499. It's a very useful feature IMO (one which my present system doesn't incorporate) as is sine wave tracking. One of the representatives from one of those outfits (Brickwall, Zero Surge, whomever) never addressed the concern that the unit, since it does not contaminate ground, would guard against a surge that just happened to come up the ground wire.


Seriously, a piece of copper wire will pass the durability test. I would have an easier time believing the information if they published the actual let through voltages as well as other pertinent information. Unfortunately, the UL listing can be placed on the unit as long as it is safe to plug into the electrical system.

As to your comments on not finding it in the places you looked, a while back, when I was interested in protecting against surges, the few places that I contacted (a local telecom company, a satellite tracking installation, etc.) knew nothing about the device. Further, in their literature, they state it's in use by the military. I tried to get more info on that by contacting my cousins son, a General in the air force, my soon to be ex-brother in law who was in both Gulf conflicts, my son's friend, a Captain responsible for Patriot missile defence systems in Korea, Kuwait, and Iraq, did some digging and found no instances of these devices being used anywhere. Not in various command centers, semi-permanent facilities, just nowhere. I can only assume that the military buys a lot of things. Some that they use. Some that they test. Some that just don't work. Just like I'm sure there'll be purchases by the military for Dunkin Donuts, doesn't mean it's an endorsement of them as a preferred supplier

Again, if these units are used extensively, put that information on the website.

I copied the TVSS standard testing magnitudes, for those who have never seen them.

My father-in-law is retired from Motorola as a top government secure communications equipment account executive for the company. Years ago, when I first bought brickwall products I asked him about their design. He told me that he saw that type of surge protection in multi-million dollar government communications facilities in the US. It was used for mission critical facilities.

Most of the 'mission critical' facilities I deal with use MOV based product. This list is pretty big. Midwestern U.S. Those that don't use MOV based units seem to rely on 'luck' :)

Do any surge protectors cover the ground too? From what I remember seeing on the MOV type they dump the surge to ground. Does this work the other way too and dump a surge on the ground to neutral?

MOVs work in either direction. Most decent surge suppressors have MOVs between H-G, H-N, and N-G combinations. If the ground side goes high, which occurs frequently in nearby lightning strikes, hey can dump back to the lower potential of the hot side or neutral. More likely to the hot, as the ground and neutral should be at the same potential anyway, so both will likely be high in this case.

MOVs work in either direction. Most decent surge suppressors have MOVs between H-G, H-N, and N-G combinations. If the ground side goes high, which occurs frequently in nearby lightning strikes, hey can dump back to the lower potential of the hot side or neutral. More likely to the hot, as the ground and neutral should be at the same potential anyway, so both will likely be high in this case.

Thanks. For some reason I thought they were one way. This helps clarify.

The operation of MOVs is very simple. They conduct whenever their voltage rating is exceeded. They just clamp a voltage across the terminals to that level. When they fail they nearly always fail as a dead short.

Do any surge protectors cover the ground too? From what I remember seeing on the MOV type they dump the surge to ground. Does this work the other way too and dump a surge on the ground to neutral?

The position that that Brickwall takes is that when you dump a surge on ground it travels back up the phone lines as they are grounded at the same point and causes damage to devices connected on that line. I think if you use a surge protector with MOVs you have to surge protect the phone lines as well. I don't currently own Brickwall but the reports I've seen over roughly the last 10 years for surge suppression have all been good. Can't say the same for any other surge protectors.

Series mode surge suppression has been around for a while and is an excellent form of surge protection. For a much better explanation, as well as a much more comprehensive line of products, see SurgeX.

www.surgex.com
http://www.surgex.com/library.html

Yes, it's been certified as a cord connected filter:eek:

Not only. " Performance and endurance is certified by UL’s special adjunct classification program (B3/C1 Surge: 6,000V, 3,000A" That's a test used for transient voltage surge suppression .

If it's so good, why can't it be used to protect an entire home? If it has utility, it would be as an adjunct after the installation of a whole house device.

To apologize for criticicizing :

a) The use of an audiophile speaker in a behind the screen application.
b) The size of the box of the surround channel speakers.

I fully expect the spirit of the apology to be worded like THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7mIy97_rlo&NR=1).

[quote=QQQ;13205718]Because it's not practical for 200 amp or 400 amp service.

Why?? And if this is the case, how can it be used in installations larger than say 20A like the manufacturer states?


Exactly, you never want your only protection to be a whole house protector.
No one ever indicated that one (1) unit installed at the service entrance is the only unit a facility should install. In fact, all evidence and industry guidelines point to use of multiple levels of surge suppression for maximum protection.

I am not bashing the series mode units which some folks seem to think are 'the best'..... however, I would not bet the farm on a product for which industry standard tests are not published.

Not only. " Performance and endurance is certified by UL’s special adjunct classification program (B3/C1 Surge: 6,000V, 3,000A" That's a test used for transient voltage surge suppression .


Thats swell, but again, without any published numbers for the actual tests, we don't know how well the unit performs. The standard test which was performed above is simply a pass/fail test if I recall properly. What about all of the other tests for transient protection? Does this manufacturer perform only the one test?

The position that that Brickwall takes is that when you dump a surge on ground it travels back up the phone lines as they are grounded at the same point and causes damage to devices connected on that line. I think if you use a surge protector with MOVs you have to surge protect the phone lines as well. I don't currently own Brickwall but the reports I've seen over roughly the last 10 years for surge suppression have all been good. Can't say the same for any other surge protectors.

I have always maintained that ALL lines into a system should be protected. This is exactly what you get with most decent surge suppressors. Most of the series mode units DO NOT protect the ground side, which is where we see lots of damage. MOVs conduct when the voltage exceeds their rating. It does not matter which side that is. The voltage between the two conductors is simply not allowed to rise beyond that point, unless of course the MOV fails, then it does so as a short. Series mode devices simply do not deal with ground surges in most cases.

[quote=AV Doogie;13207064]
...Folks such as Bill Whitlock of Jensen Transformers, one of the most well known power and grounding experts out there. Not that that proves anything, but I mention it for those who know and respect Bill.

What industry standard tests are you referring to? From the SurgeX FAQ:

Q: I thought that lightning involved millions of volts of electricity and tens of thousands of amps of current. You say that SurgeX will protect equipment under any surge conditions, but your spec is only 6000 volts and 3000 amps. Is there something I'm not understanding here?

A: The reason for this apparent anomaly is the fact that we are not attempting to protect equipment sitting exposed on a hill. We are protecting equipment inside a building where surges are transmitted to equipment via the building wiring. Several years ago the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) compiled research on lighting induced surges outside and inside buildings. The results of this research is documented in C62.41-1991, and it is from this document that the 6000 volt, 3000 amp spec is taken. The essence of what the IEEE found was that, due to arc-over at the service entrance and within the building wiring, the worst-case surges that would be found at an outlet were 6000 volts, 3000 amps with 90 Joules of energy. This was the design goal for SurgeX, and these figures are also used by UL for the Adjunct Endurance Testing and by the federal government for their surge protector Commercial Item Description (CID). The SurgeX surge protection technology was designed to handle these surges, and this has been verified by a NRTL for 1000 such surges.

Q: You don't publish a response time in your specs. I'd like to know SurgeX's response time.

A: We don't publish a response time because this is associated with active components like MOVs, avalanche diodes etc. - parts that have to "switch on". SurgeX uses a combination of passive and active technologies which slow down the surge so that circuit response time is not a factor. SurgeX uses a large inductor, called a surge reactor, in series with the hot wire. An inductor is coiled copper wire, and copper wire has no "turn-on" time or "response" time. The fact that we use transistors and SCRs in our products is not an issue regarding response time because these parts follow the surge reactor which slows down all surges and transients. So parts which do have a finite turn-on time like SCRs can respond to slowed-down surges and transients without any problem. If they didn't, SurgeX wouldn't pass the 1000-surge Endurance Test with such a low let-through voltage.

p.s. sorry Peter, link does not work.


Where is the documentation again??? Please look at some of the competitors' websites where they publish the full tests. Why don't these folks do it. I am just asking for verification of results with actual numbers versus someones marketing verbage indicating that they too pass the test.

Teh data would look like this:

[quote=Bulldogger;13205495]The position that that Brickwall takes is that when you dump a surge on ground it travels back up the phone lines as they are grounded at the same point and causes damage to devices connected on that line.

That is why you must protect the incoming phone lines, cable lines, etc.



I think if you use a surge protector with MOVs you have to surge protect the phone lines as well.


You would need to protect them with the brickwall unit too! Why would you leave them unprotected? A nearby lightning strike or other event can travel through the phone line, cable line or any other conductor entering your house, Lightning doesn't care.



I don't currently own Brickwall but the reports I've seen over roughly the last 10 years for surge suppression have all been good. Can't say the same for any other surge protectors.

Why? What reports have you seen, I would like to see them as well since this is a part of my business.

Since MOV based units probably make up in excess of 95% of the installed surge suppression out there, wouldn't it be fair to say that they constitute the majority of stories too?

Potential Surge protection plan

I’m thinking of
- Surge-X SEQ for 20A non-MOV protection for the whole rack system
- APC BACK UPS HT – connect to Surge-X and for projector +/- DVR only
- Middle Atlantic PDLT-815RV for rack lighting and non-critical outlets – eg M.A. fans on top of rack

I like the APC S15, but I think I need a non-MOV before it and someone suggested that the voltage regulation is either worthless or potentially harmful.

Questions:
- Would you choose Surge-X or Brickwall for a non-MOV solution?
- Is voltage regulation useful, worthless, harmful?
- What are recommendations for “stand alone” coax/cable and Ethernet protection? Phone service is through cable modem

My system and other links are below. (Hmm, can't post links as it's my first post...)

Thanks.
Mike

20A unit
Brick Wall PWRM20AUD - $529

Another 20A option would be a Surge-X component.

SEQ - $980
SX2120 - $695

I could potentially use one of those for everything and a separate APC UPS for the projector.

My system:
HT Room: ~26' x ~18' x 8’1”-8’10” (Rives Audio designed)
Rack: Middle Atlantic WR-37-32
TV: (1080p proj planned), Source: SA8300HD
Receiver: Denon 5308CI
DVD/DVD-A/SACD: Oppo DV-980H (480i to Denon)
Power/surge: dedicated 20A lines, house surge (not sure of type – integrated in electric panel) +
( Brickwall PW8R15AUD (main) & PW2RAUD (sub) )
Surge - Cable/coax (phone is from cable modem): none
Surge - Ethernet: none
Mains/Center: Onix Rocket RS1000Sig/RSC200 Sig "Bigfoot"
Side/Rear Surrounds: Onix RSS300 dipole (side)/ Onix RS250 MkII (rear))
Subwoofer: SVS PB12-Ultra/2 (rosewood)
Research: 1) 1080p Proj/Scrn, 2) HT seating, 3) proj UPS, 4) BR player (? Denon DVD-2500BTCI or holdout for Oppo)

Family Room
TV: Mits WD52628 1080p & SA8300HD, DVD: Oppo DV-980H, CD: Sony CD Changer, Surge: APC AV H10, Game: Xbox "classic"
House: 2 Russound amps, 9 speaker zones

Potential Surge protection plan

I’m thinking of
- Surge-X SEQ for 20A non-MOV protection for the whole rack system
- APC BACK UPS HT – connect to Surge-X and for projector +/- DVR only
- Middle Atlantic PDLT-815RV for rack lighting and non-critical outlets – eg M.A. fans on top of rack

I like the APC S15, but I think I need a non-MOV before it and someone suggested that the voltage regulation is either worthless or potentially harmful.

Questions:
- Would you choose Surge-X or Brickwall for a non-MOV solution?
- Is voltage regulation useful, worthless, harmful?
- What are recommendations for “stand alone” coax/cable and Ethernet protection? Phone service is through cable modem

My system and other links are below. (Hmm, can't post links as it's my first post...)

Thanks.
Mike

20A unit
Brick Wall PWRM20AUD - $529

Another 20A option would be a Surge-X component.

SEQ - $980
SX2120 - $695

I could potentially use one of those for everything and a separate APC UPS for the projector.



If it were my system, I would install a whole house unit at the main panel and then install a decent suppression system at the rack to mitigate any let-through from the whole house suppression system. You should install protection on incoming telephone and cable services as well. This is one of the best solutions. As for needing a UPS or voltage regulation.....Why? Unless you have electrical service problems, these items are a waste of $$.

One place a UPS can make sense is on bulb type projectors and RPTVs. I've never seen hard data on how much skipping the cool down cycle impacts bulb life but I still cringe when the lights go out the PJ.

One place a UPS can make sense is on bulb type projectors and RPTVs. I've never seen hard data on how much skipping the cool down cycle impacts bulb life but I still cringe when the lights go out the PJ.

This makes sense if you have regular power system issues, but how many times are you using your projector when the 'lights go out'. I have had a digital projector since 2003, and I have never had such an incident. How about you?

Actually once or twice a year and I make it a point to shut everything down before severe weather hits. Hasn't seemed to hurt anything yet but at $500 a bulb for even my very long in the tooth 10ht it makes me wonder if having it on an UPS with a few minutes runtime would make sense. Just enough to do a graceful shutdown on the PJ.

If it were my system, I would install a whole house unit at the main panel and then install a decent suppression system at the rack to mitigate any let-through from the whole house suppression system. You should install protection on incoming telephone and cable services as well. This is one of the best solutions. As for needing a UPS or voltage regulation.....Why? Unless you have electrical service problems, these items are a waste of $$.

Thanks.

1. Main panel suppressor - done
2. Coax(=cable phone)/ethernet protection - any product recs?
3. non-MOV - any recs on choosing Brickwall over Surge-X?
4. UPS - I don't mind spending $300 or so (eg APC BACK UPS HT) to cover the following:
A. projector - to allow time to turn off (manual vs ?? automatic) for cool down
B. DVR or HTPC/media server
5. Voltage regulation - I'm quite willing to accept that this is worthless or harmful and that I've been drawn in by marketing, but since some people think it is useful, what specific reasons are there for not getting it?

Thanks.

Mike

1. Main panel suppressor - done

2. Coax(=cable phone)/ethernet protection - any product recs?

Panamax, Innovative technology etc. have decent units....so do many others.

[QUOTE]
3. non-MOV - any recs on choosing Brickwall over Surge-X?

I believe that these units are identical....BTW do you have something against MOV units?


4. UPS - I don't mind spending $300 or so (eg APC BACK UPS HT) to cover the following:
A. projector - to allow time to turn off (manual vs ?? automatic) for cool down
B. DVR or HTPC/media server

UPS units can provide some benefits, but most people will never need to use the unit for real protection, the cheap units can create more problems than they resolve, and batteries will need to be replaced in 3-5 years.


5. Voltage regulation - I'm quite willing to accept that this is worthless or harmful and that I've been drawn in by marketing, but since some people think it is useful, what specific reasons are there for not getting it?


Voltage regulation within a number of these units is performed by a wirewound potentiometer attached to a servo. The potentiometer introduces transients while the copper bar scrapes along the wirewound transformer unit. Besides, most utilities provide excellent regulation. If you have a voltage problem, contact the utility to fix the problem on their end first.

Voltage regulation within a number of these units is performed by a wirewound potentiometer attached to a servo. The potentiometer introduces transients while the copper bar scrapes along the wirewound transformer unit.

Who is making this kind of kludge?

Who is making this kind of kludge?


Your friends at Monster!:)

Which product? That really is hard to believe.

Which product? That really is hard to believe.


The AVS 2000. Why is this hard to believe?

Here is a site review if you don't believe me. I have physically taken one of these beasts apart to see how it is assembled. The voltage output did not look pretty when the servo was moving the variac assembly.

http://www99.epinions.com/content_196451208836

Tech Specs

Contrary to epinion's description of the AVS2000, it is not designed to be a surge suppressor. So what does it do then? The AVS2000 will accept an input voltage anywhere from 80 volts to 140 volts AC and will give you a nice, consistent 120 volts AC (+/- 1%). It can handle a 15 amp load with an input of 120 volts or more.

How is this accomplished? Monster uses a servo-controller variac to continuously adjust the output voltage. This is what accounts for the immense weight of the AVS2000. Some less-expensive stabilizers may only handle 7 or 8 amps of current but that is often not sufficient for high-power amplifiers and/or powered subwoofers.


Personnally, I would never put something like this into my equipment rack with sensitive electronics. :eek:

This makes sense if you have regular power system issues, but how many times are you using your projector when the 'lights go out'. I have had a digital projector since 2003, and I have never had such an incident. How about you?

Actually here in Arizona, with long hotter than hell months, we have incidences of power outage all too often.

Thats why I followed your advise re Innovative Technology whole house surge suppression.

And why I also got an APC S15 (pure sine wave and UPS) for my video gear including my Sim2 C3X 1080 projector.

Double protection against double trouble.

Actually here in Arizona, with long hotter than hell months, we have incidences of power outage all too often.

Thats why I followed your advise re Innovative Technology whole house surge suppression.

And why I also got an APC S15 (pure sine wave and UPS) for my video gear including my Sim2 C3X 1080 projector.

Double protection against double trouble.


I hear ya! ...but here in Chicago-Land, I rarely see any power problems (Residential). We have a nice stiff power system in the Midwest.

You might like the warm winter months there, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there in the summer months.

The AVS 2000. Why is this hard to believe?

Here is a site review if you don't believe me. I have physically taken one of these beasts apart to see how it is assembled. The voltage output did not look pretty when the servo was moving the variac assembly.

http://www99.epinions.com/content_196451208836

Tech Specs

Contrary to epinion's description of the AVS2000, it is not designed to be a surge suppressor. So what does it do then? The AVS2000 will accept an input voltage anywhere from 80 volts to 140 volts AC and will give you a nice, consistent 120 volts AC (+/- 1%). It can handle a 15 amp load with an input of 120 volts or more.

How is this accomplished? Monster uses a servo-controller variac to continuously adjust the output voltage. This is what accounts for the immense weight of the AVS2000. Some less-expensive stabilizers may only handle 7 or 8 amps of current but that is often not sufficient for high-power amplifiers and/or powered subwoofers.


Personnally, I would never put something like this into my equipment rack with sensitive electronics. :eek:

I meant that it is hard to believe because it is such a DUMB idea! We don't sell those units so I never had one apart. Why...no, I won't even bother...

Voltage regulation within a number of these units is performed by a wirewound potentiometer attached to a servo. The potentiometer introduces transients while the copper bar scrapes along the wirewound transformer unit. Besides, most utilities provide excellent regulation. If you have a voltage problem, contact the utility to fix the problem on their end first.

The circuit description mentions a variac (i.e., a variable autoformer), not a potentiometer.

[quote=AV Doogie;13333440]

The circuit description mentions a variac (i.e., a variable autoformer), not a potentiometer.


It is built essentially like a potentiometer. The copper strap moves across the transformer windings in the same fashion.

Like this:

Furman makes a similar item, but uses a multitap toroid transformer with TRIACs at the output of each tap. The voltage input is sensed, and if it drops, the toroid windings are used as a stepup/down transformer to compensate for whatever is incoming.

It seemed to work OK (it's also a heavy beast), until someone overloaded the unit, and one TRIAC shorted out. THen the taps acted as a dead short on the transformer, and every winding had to be disconnected until I found the shorted TRIAC. A royal PITA.

Furman makes a similar item, but uses a multitap toroid transformer with TRIACs at the output of each tap. The voltage input is sensed, and if it drops, the toroid windings are used as a stepup/down transformer to compensate for whatever is incoming.

It seemed to work OK (it's also a heavy beast), until someone overloaded the unit, and one TRIAC shorted out. THen the taps acted as a dead short on the transformer, and every winding had to be disconnected until I found the shorted TRIAC. A royal PITA.

I generally have found the Furman equipment (in the past) to be well built and well designed.

Solid state components are a lot less tolerant of over-( ) and under-( ). You fill in the blanks:o

Reminds me of the six and twelve pole SCR units used at the steel mills and foundries. Same type of PITA.

If someone in the SF Bay Area wants to try out a brick wall unit, I have one that I was using for a dedicated room that I have since been booted out of (wife wanted the dining room for eating!). My other room is filled with MOV devices. I've had failures in neither location. PM me and we can work something out.

[quote=Bob Lee (QSC);13344759]


It is built essentially like a potentiometer. The copper strap moves across the transformer windings in the same fashion.

Like this:

"Essentially like" is not "the same as". The essential differences between a potentiometer and a variable autoformer are that one uses varying resistances and the other uses varying magnetics.

Regardless, it is still a silly idea.

[quote=AV Doogie;13345161]

"Essentially like" is not "the same as". The essential differences between a potentiometer and a variable autoformer are that one uses varying resistances and the other uses varying magnetics.


Bob,
Being an engineer type, you should understand the importance of being able to describe something to people who are not engineering types.;)

If it were my system, I would install a whole house unit at the main panel and then install a decent suppression system at the rack to mitigate any let-through from the whole house suppression system. You should install protection on incoming telephone and cable services as well. This is one of the best solutions. As for needing a UPS or voltage regulation.....Why? Unless you have electrical service problems, these items are a waste of $$.

[quote]

Panamax, Innovative technology etc. have decent units....so do many others.


I believe that these units are identical....BTW do you have something against MOV units?


UPS units can provide some benefits, but most people will never need to use the unit for real protection, the cheap units can create more problems than they resolve, and batteries will need to be replaced in 3-5 years.



Voltage regulation within a number of these units is performed by a wirewound potentiometer attached to a servo. The potentiometer introduces transients while the copper bar scrapes along the wirewound transformer unit. Besides, most utilities provide excellent regulation. If you have a voltage problem, contact the utility to fix the problem on their end first.
Updates:
- I did purchase a Middle Atlantic light/surge for the top of rack. Works well. Not plugging any critical stuff into it.
- Likely will go with the Surge-X SEQ. I like the idea of the non-sacrificial nature of SM.
- For UPS I was now thinking of the Furman M1500-UPS-PFP
I understand that either by IR or by RS-232 a projector can be shut down when power is off for a period.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Mike

I did end up purchasing these:
- Surge: Surge-X SEQ
- UPS: Furman M1500-UPS-PFP

Waiting for both in the mail.

Thanks for the help...

Mike

Hi!

Does anyone have a complete schematic of the BrickWall Series Mode Surge Protector?
Here is a not complete review how does it work:
www.sellcom.com/brickwall.html

And a not complete schematic:
http://www.sellcom.com/images/how1.gif

The original PCB:
http://www.sellcom.com/images/PWOEM.jpg

I don't think that it would be to complex to rebuild it.
I think there are 2 coils, 2 SCRs, few Caps, 1 diode inside.
Thank you!

I use an Equitech 3RQ. I have a dedicated 220V line run into the A/V area and the 3RQ steps it down to the correct 120v. There isn't so much as a hint of a hum in my speakers and I live in a prewar coop in NYC! So so far, not even a flicker. That said, you can watch the little input voltage meter and that fluctuates significantly.

I will be putting in a UPS between the server/switch/NAS and the Equitech sometime in the coming month or two. My problem is that I JUST want a UPS, nothing else. No processing, etc. Just a device that senses a loss of power and kicks in. When not on battery, entirely passive and not interacting with my already decent power!

I use an Equitech 3RQ. I have a dedicated 220V line run into the A/V area and the 3RQ steps it down to the correct 120v. There isn't so much as a hint of a hum in my speakers and I live in a prewar coop in NYC! So so far, not even a flicker. That said, you can watch the little input voltage meter and that fluctuates significantly.

I will be putting in a UPS between the server/switch/NAS and the Equitech sometime in the coming month or two. My problem is that I JUST want a UPS, nothing else. No processing, etc. Just a device that senses a loss of power and kicks in. When not on battery, entirely passive and not interacting with my already decent power!

I have a APC Smart-UPS (SU3000RMNET) 5U in my rack. Everything connected in my HT runs through it including two CRT projectors. It not only switches over at power failure but also at under/over voltage conditions that are user selectable via provided software. It has kicked in about 6 times in the past month alone because it didn't like what it saw.

Chip

I use an Equitech 3RQ. I have a dedicated 220V line run into the A/V area and the 3RQ steps it down to the correct 120v. There isn't so much as a hint of a hum in my speakers and I live in a prewar coop in NYC!



Hum in a sound system has nothing to do with the incoming power. It has to do with ground loops, usually caused by the cablevision/satellite line coming into the system.

You can have the worst incoming power, and it won't cause hum in a system.

Hum in a sound system has nothing to do with the incoming power. It has to do with ground loops, usually caused by the cablevision/satellite line coming into the system.

You can have the worst incoming power, and it won't cause hum in a system.


Ok, well I have had hum removed my a power processor... or maybe I haven't... Beyond that I have never had a brownout, a spike, or any electrical issues with my 3RQ. From an A/V perspective, I personally believe that the 3RQ eliminates the need for high end power cables and that both the sound and image quality are as good as my system can produce.

In the end Equi=tech seems to stand behind their product, provide all the technical info anyone could need and seems to have a pretty serious following among the pro A/V crowd.