I live in a condo and the neighbors will not appreciate loud home theatre or music listening, and I have a toddler that goes to bed at 8pm, so we watch tv at low volume.

What is the best way to have a good SQ experiance at low volume? I have new polk satellite speakers, does a better reciever make much of a difference?

Put differently, does a better receiver (power, processing, etc.) really matter at low volume levels for 5.1?

A related question - do better receivers do DRC better?

I might get bashed for this but any descent up to date receiver should be fine for your situation. When you say "better" that is hard to qualify, better than what? As far as sound quality I think you will find the speakers and room acoustics are the most important piece to that puzzle.

I have a 5 year old Kenwood VR-715 HTIB (pretty low end - has DTS and 6 channel analogue, but that's it), and I just recently switched to Polk home threatre speakers. They sound better, not suprisingly, but I still have trouble with the dialogue not being so clear.

I have a more specific thread going in the reciever section, but I meant this thread to be more general about things that improve low volume SQ.

For example, does anyone think that moving from a Onk 505 to a 805 will make low volume TV or movie watching better? Will adding an amp make it sound better in these conditions? Will the brand of reciever make much difference at this level?

The problem is that the "sound" in a modern A/V receiver is a function of how the EQ program runs in your room. Nobody can predict it. Without EQ they all sound the same.

Marko, I think the 505 would be a great improvement over your old htib receiver, the 805 would have more power and features than the 505 but I dont think the sound quality would be very different but the price sure would be! You might want to consider the 605 as a happy medium. Good luck with your set-up.

I live in a condo and the neighbors will not appreciate loud home theatre or music listening, and I have a toddler that goes to bed at 8pm, so we watch tv at low volume.

What is the best way to have a good SQ experiance at low volume? I have new polk satellite speakers, does a better reciever make much of a difference?


Before you buy a new receiver, check to see if the one you already have, has some form of dynamic range reduction option ('night mode' is what it's sometimes called). It's meant specifically for maintaining subjective audio quality at low volume. It's preferable to a 'loudness' button for this.

Krabapple: It has a night mode, which is what I mostly use. Even with that on, it seems like we are still struggling to make out dialogue. It is better with the new much improved speakers, but still not great. I wonder if better quality receivers have a better DRC - night mode?

plnorris: Why do you think the sound would be better? My current reciever doesnt have any auto eq, maybe that's it.

FMW: The 505 has Audyssey, I am thinking that might help, my current one has three preset EQs and some crappy sound fields.

Marko, I'm no expert on this subject but generaly speaking the Onk 505 will simply out-perform any 5 year old htib receiver. It will have a lot more set-up options and other features your current receiver probably lacks. Anyway it's fun to upgrade and you have a good reason to do just that.

Marko, I'm no expert on this subject but generaly speaking the Onk 505 will simply out-perform any 5 year old htib receiver. It will have a lot more set-up options and other features your current receiver probably lacks. Anyway it's fun to upgrade and you have a good reason to do just that.

But "set-up options" and "other features" won't make it sound better.

However, psychoacoustics might very well make a new receiver sound much better.

Plus the total harmonic distortion level is lower on the Onk 505. Add that up with biff's psychoacoustic advantage and you have an incredible sound improvement!

Man that sucks Marko. A different way you can enhance low volume listening is using DSP. Yamaha is excellent at surround fields especially theater simulated sound. Adding some artificial ambiance to make you think that you're not some caged animal in your own place could help. The Yamaha RX-v659 is lower cost and sounds amazing in DD IMO. It has a lot of DSP options that are surprisingly quite effective and realistic.

Krabapple: It has a night mode, which is what I mostly use. Even with that on, it seems like we are still struggling to make out dialogue. It is better with the new much improved speakers, but still not great. I wonder if better quality receivers have a better DRC - night mode?

Calibrating your speaker levels and delays (making sure the center channel in particular is balanced correctly) and proper speaker placement, are more likely to fix your problem without a new AVR. Use a $40 radio shack meter and some test tones for this, if your AVR doesn't offer auto level setting. Also, your room may be very reverberant, and you need to damp some sound wave reflections to tighten up the sound.

I live in a condo and the neighbors will not appreciate loud home theatre or music listening, and I have a toddler that goes to bed at 8pm, so we watch tv at low volume.

What is the best way to have a good SQ experiance at low volume? I have new polk satellite speakers, does a better reciever make much of a difference?

Put differently, does a better receiver (power, processing, etc.) really matter at low volume levels for 5.1?

Speaker/listener placement, room acoustics, and speaker quality.

Or skip all that and use a set of head phones.

Putting aside psychoacostics (if that applied here, I would not be asking the question and just get the most expensive receiver I could afford - which would be a pretty damn nice reciever), do modern receivers like the Onk 505 allow DSP in 5.1? Mine doesn't - when I am getting 5.1, I have only two choices - "digital" (5.1) or "stereo". The only time I am given an option for using DSP to have different sound stages, like theatre or stadium (I am assuming that is what DSP is) is when it receives analogue signal or from the tuner. I am thinking that a more advanced reciever like the Onk might be a big improvement if I am missing all these options.

To help with hearing dialog, try putting something under an edge of the center speaker to tilt it toward your listening position and putting rugs or hangings over any nearby reflecting surfaces. If you have other spare speakers around, change out the center to see if that helps. (After lots of experiments, I got good results with an Axiom M2i as center.)

Some receivers probably have a better "nighttime mode" than others. But I don't know which those are. Room treatments will almost always help. Properly calibrating is important if you have not done this yet (or just turn up the center channel since that is where most dialog comes from). Some movies I think just have the dialog too low in level - not much you can do about that.

Did you try the loudness switch?

I have a 5 year old Kenwood VR-715 HTIB (pretty low end - has DTS and 6 channel analogue, but that's it), and I just recently switched to Polk home threatre speakers. They sound better, not suprisingly, but I still have trouble with the dialogue not being so clear.First, try turning up the volume of the center speaker. Sometimes they aren't as efficient as the R&L and need a higher level setting.

A lot of those HTIB setups are optimized for the speakers that come with them so any decent receiver should do better with the Polks. As others have said, make sure you get the speaker levels calibrated properly and use the night mode.

If the dialog is still hard to hear, you can bump the level of the center channel up a bit above the calibrated level for quiet listening.

Pioneers unique Midnight Mode is very very effective at compressing the dynamic range of ALL content, analog digital or anything.

It does a great job at creating an acceptable low volume experience. Also, you might not like this, but I would also turn off the .1 channel. The woofer will still augment the other 5 channels base track, but leave out the really low rumbles that bother people.

Raymond: I don't have a loudness setting unless I am listening to the tuner. I do have a couple generic EQ profile settings, they help a bit (much more when I changed my configuration, see below).

GregLee: My center is already aimed at my listenting position, but I will try messing with that.

Catapult, I tried upping the volume on the center speaker, didn't seem to help much, sound still seemed off to me. Thin (see below).

Last night I tried changing my center speaker setting to "large" and that seems to have helped quite a bit. My powered sub is set up with my fronts going through it, (receiver setting - no sub) and I wonder if that has confused my old HTIB reciever. Either way, the center channel does not have much bass and I think my Polk center can handle it at low volume. It sounds better now to me.

While running filtered pink noise speaker tests, there is a large difference in tonal quality between my fronts and my center, which are matched Polks. I think it is my reciever.

Catapult, I think you are right that the HTIB receiver wants the speakers and configuration it was tuned for. My speaker options are to pick from three Kenwood speaker setups or "other" for anything else, and I think this is really causing my problem (although it sounds much better now with the center set to large). I am probably going to get the Onkyo 505 to get more options and piece of mind knowing it is set up properly. I think Audyssey will make a big difference since I don't have an SPL meter and I don't really know what I am doing!

Putting aside psychoacostics (if that applied here, I would not be asking the question and just get the most expensive receiver I could afford - which would be a pretty damn nice reciever), do modern receivers like the Onk 505 allow DSP in 5.1?

Yes, they do, and have for some years now (e.g., Pioneer's Elite line).

Ideally, room correction DSP (EQ) should apply to all six channels. Pioneer's only apply to the non-subwoofer channels*. AFAIK, Audyssey-equipped AVRs (Denon, Onkyo, NAD, some others) and Harman-Kardon's proprietary system do apply DSP EQ to subwoofer output as well.

(*i.e., bass, management, channel levelling, delay, and phase adjustment are applied to the sub in the Pioneers, but not EQ)

But even without EQ DSP, just making sure the L/Center/R levels and distance are properly calibrated -- which even the most basic modern setup routines offer -- will make a big difference in intelligibility.

Your bass management setup is unclear to me...it soudns like maybe you have you fronts L/R going through your sub via speaker-level inputs? And then you had the mains set to 'large' but the center set to 'small' in your AVR?

Room treatments can help. If you can minimize nulls (especially at lower frequencies), you'll get a more even response in the room which translates into more sound reaching your ears for a given volume.

Your bass management setup is unclear to me...it soudns like maybe you have you fronts L/R going through your sub via speaker-level inputs? And then you had the mains set to 'large' but the center set to 'small' in your AVR?

Yes, although when I turned off the sub, it did not give me the option to adjust the size of the front L/R, I assume it automatically set them to large. I initially set the center speaker to small to get the receiver to send the lows to the side speakers, and hence to the sub (I believe that is how it works) but the sound was thin, even with my sub's crossover and volume up. In fact, turning up the sub's volume just made it boomy and worse. When I switched the center to large, it sounds better and I can move the sub to a normal level that sounds good.

I am now more concerned about the tone difference with the center being different sounding than the front l/r (even though they are matched tonally by Polk). So I am blaming my receiver and plan to buy the Onkyo 505. I think I have enough evidence now that my setup will be improved.

My current reciever was part of a HTIB from BB for 300 bucks like five years ago, so I think this will help. My old HTIB setup will go up stairs and I will connect it to my computer, which should sound good.

Room treatments can help. If you can minimize nulls (especially at lower frequencies), you'll get a more even response in the room which translates into more sound reaching your ears for a given volume.

Can't do much about my room - it is a bit of a mess. It is the living room of a condo with a loft, so I have a 17ft high ceiling, an open kichen and opening into the small dining room, and pergo floors. I am probably in major reflection land. I have an area rug on the floor, and maybe could get a biger one, but I don't think my wife will go for a big velvet painting over the couch, which would most likely help the most!

Yes, although when I turned off the sub, it did not give me the option to adjust the size of the front L/R, I assume it automatically set them to large.

Yes, I would bet it did.

I initially set the center speaker to small to get the receiver to send the lows to the side speakers, and hence to the sub (I believe that is how it works)

Hold on. To be clear, usually, when sub is set to 'NO', any 'small' speaker bass is sent to the front L/R (which are automatically set to LARGE, when sub is NO). Bass is NOT redirected to the 'side speakers' (surrounds?), even if those are set to LARGE. Unless you have an extremely flexible bass management system, the only bass from LARGE surrounds, is bass that was mixed into those channels in the studio.

But maybe by 'sides' you meant 'front left and right', which I call 'mains'

In your setup, the full-range front L/R signal goes out the AVR mains channels, gets filtered by the sub, and the highs are sent on to the speakers (lows are output from the sub). A SMALL center channel (or any other SMALL channel) is filtered *in the AVR* first - bass is sent to AVR mains channels, which are then filtered by the subwoofer before output to the mains. So, your mains are being filtered once, according to the subwoofer setting. But a SMALL center is being filtered twice, first, according to the AVR setting, then its bass is filtered AGAIN, according to the sub setting. So, what is your AVR's 'small' crossover frequency set to? And what is the highest crossover frequency setting on your sub? You could be literally 'losing' some bass frequencies from the center this way. Alternately, some CENTER 'bass' might get passed on to the main speakers. Both scenarios would result in large 'tonal difference' between mains and center.




I am now more concerned about the tone difference with the center being different sounding than the front l/r (even though they are matched tonally by Polk). So I am blaming my receiver and plan to buy the Onkyo 505. I think I have enough evidence now that my setup will be improved.

Again, it's not so much your AVR, as your setup, as noted above. There will also be some 'tone difference' due to the placement of the speakers, IME it's inevitable in any non-treated/non-corrected room.

That said, a more flexible modern AVR will allow more consistent connections and bass management.

I have found that some speakers sound very good at low volume while others need to reach a certain level before "coming alive". Try to find speakers of the first type.

I am now more concerned about the tone difference with the center being different sounding than the front l/r (even though they are matched tonally by Polk). So I am blaming my receiver and plan to buy the Onkyo 505. I think I have enough evidence now that my setup will be improved.



Marko,

You've now been through multiple threads where the general advice is that room acoustics and speakers will effect sound more than an AVR.

But you want to buy Onkyo 505.

And that's fine.

But stop trying to get others to provide "evidence" for your desire to buy a new AVR.

Just buy the damn thing.

Biffva, I am finding this thread very helpful and with the help of other members I think I have narrowed the problem down to my old and somewhat crappy HTiB receiver on which I can't even adjust the cross over.

Your comments, however, have been snarky and unhelpful. If you don't like my thread, please find another one to comment on.

krabapple, you are correct, by sides I meant "mains". I can't change the cross over of anything besides my sub on the sub, since my AVR is rather limited it seems. The tonal difference between the center and the two mains (which are all right next to each other and the same distance from me) is obvious and not due to placement. I will try the same tests with different configurations and see if that fixes it, but it sounds a whole lot better with the center set to large, so I will probably just leave that there until/unless I get a new AVR.

I was trying to keep this discussion more general about what helps low volume so others could benefit, but it looks like it is important to at least have a floor level decent AVR first to be able to make adjustments. I already got what I think are speaker appropriate to my environment, and can't change the room much, but I appreciate the input.

Biffva, I am finding this thread very helpful and with the help of other members I think I have narrowed the problem down to my old and somewhat crappy HTiB receiver on which I can't even adjust the cross over.

Your comments, however, have been snarky and unhelpful. If you don't like my thread, please find another one to comment on.

Marko,

If you don't want to deal with reality--that room acoustics and speakers factor way more than receivers into sound quality--then don't ask for advice on a public forum.

You're defining helpful as opinions that agree with your decision to buy a 505.

:rolleyes:

Actually, I think his AVR is one limiting factor -- though of course attention to placement, calibration, and treatment will also make a huge difference. A modern AVR makes calibration and bass management easy and might well go far towards solve his problem. His current AVR is 2002 vintage.

Upgrade amplifier, upgrade speakers, or bring in the speakers closer. Ssshhh - don't tell anyone. It's the least expensive temp upgrade.

Actually, I think his AVR is one limiting factor -- though of course attention to placement, calibration, and treatment will also make a huge difference. A modern AVR makes calibration and bass management easy and might well go far towards solve his problem. His current AVR is 2002 vintage.

That's an even-handed post, krabapple.

A new AVR certainly won't hurt his situation. But it might not go that far toward the solution he desires.

On the other hand, a new AVR with better speakers would probably solve about as much as he can without addressing room acoustics.

But he just got new speakers and he won't hear of the possibility that those new speakers might have been a less than ideal purchase.

Geez, I just talked myself into feeling sorry for the guy.

Ok, so the consensus seems to be (in no particular order) better speakers, or speakers that sound better at low volumes, speaker placement, room treatement, calibration, and a AVR upgrade or at least a modern reciever that allows for adjustments. Am I leaving anything out? That seems like a good answer to the original question of the thread. Thank goodness at least no one suggested monster cables ;)


Regarding my specific problem, I tried a couple different configurations (like going back to using the lfe out to the sub instead of puttting the mains through the sub), and the the test signal from my center allways sounds different from my mains, almost like I am hearing the tone through a tube when it is through the center. It is a very obvious difference when using the tones on the Avia disc, less so when using the AVRs own test tones. I assume that is not normal and that something is wrong - I would expect the mains and center to sound pretty similar with a test signal based on what I am reading. It is not speaker placement, so it is either my new polk speakers, which seems unlikely, or it is my old reciever. I did want to buy a new reciever, especially if it would not make a difference, but the more I research, the more it seems like my old reciever is missing a bunch of features and maybe it handles the center channel in a weird way to drive the crappy HTIB center, which was small and lighter (worse than the mains it came with, believe it or not).

<sigh>

Believe what you want to believe. .But the truth is , it COULD be your speaker placement that contributes to the timbral difference; it COULD even be that the center Polk just happens to be broken. To rule out any possibilities, they need to be isolated and tested. Your glancing description of trying 'a couple of different configurations' doesn't really guide us to telling you what, in fact, is really wrong.

Here are the cases where timbrally matched L/R mains and center SHOULD sound alike (except for the differences due to position/room acoustics -- which will ALWAYS be there unless there is room treatment):

sub ON, mains LARGE, center LARGE

or

sub ON, mains SMALL, center SMALL (where SMALL is generic, not Sony-speak, and the same SMALL crossover setting is applied to mains and center)

in both cases, I assume
1) speaker connections are all direct from the AVR, not going through the sub;
2) levels are carefully matched
3) delays are set correctly
4) the same test tone is used for main and center channels