gone

Integra as a pre/pro that does that if you are willing to spend >$2000 Cdn for it :D

The new panasonic thats due out will internally decode and i am sure there will be others due to the
fact there are to many high end pre-pros and receivers that don't decode the new
audio formats.

i was wondering about all this the other day too. I'd be happy if a relatively cheap piece of hardware could take the bitstream from a HD player and decode the dts hd to 5.1 lpcm or similar

I suspect that a piece of equipment that did this would cost as much as a receiver. Also the market for something like this probably is not yet large enough to interest any CEs.

Gefen is offering a box for that. Should be out in about a month. Price ~$400.

Kal

Gefen is offering a box for that. Should be out in about a month. Price ~$400.

Kal

I'm sooo buying that when it becomes available. I love my receiver's amp section (MOSFET) and the newer versions don't have MOSFET anymore.

any link on the Gefen box?

Kal will this be hdmi only.

is this the one you're talking about?

http://www.gefen.com/gefentv/gtvproduct.jsp?prod_id=5277

this one doesn't have Dolby TrueHD or any other advance codecs.

is this the one you're talking about?

http://www.gefen.com/gefentv/gtvproduct.jsp?prod_id=5277

this one doesn't have Dolby TrueHD or any other advance codecs.Yes. They implied that those would come, at least that's what they said at CES.

Kal will this be hdmi only.Yes. OF course.

$400? That's almost as much as a BD player, why would you not just get something like the Pany BD50 or Pioneer 05FD (assuming it does decoding)?

$400? That's almost as much as a BD player, why would you not just get something like the Pany BD50 or Pioneer 05FD (assuming it does decoding)?Just another option. After all, someone did ask for it. :D

Yes. OF course.

I see the dual output hdmi that answered my not so well thought out question
it looks like the video is stripped from it to go to display and audio via 8ch
to rec/amp. looks intersesting but i think for 400.00 i will wait on the panasonic.

$400? That's almost as much as a BD player, why would you not just get something like the Pany BD50 or Pioneer 05FD (assuming it does decoding)?


It's reasonable for a pre-pro.

I have an old dolby digital seperate decoder . Denon made them...

A whole bunch of companies used to make separate pre-pro such as Yamaha DSP-1, Pioneer DSP-101, Hafler, Technics, Aiwa, Sansui, and the list goes on. I really miss those days.

Just another option. After all, someone did ask for it. :D

Question was directed more toward those asking for it. ;)

It's reasonable for a pre-pro.

It's not a pre-pro though, it's just a decoder if I understand correctly, you still need a reciever/pre-pro in addition to the decoder.

A whole bunch of companies used to make separate pre-pro such as Yamaha DSP-1, Pioneer DSP-101, Hafler, Technics, Aiwa, Sansui, and the list goes on. I really miss those days.

Lots of companies still make pre-pros, Anthem, Integra, Arcam, to name a few.

Question was directed more toward those asking for it. ;)



It's not a pre-pro though, it's just a decoder if I understand correctly, you still need a reciever/pre-pro in addition to the decoder.



Lots of companies still make pre-pros, Anthem, Integra, Arcam, to name a few.


It will have more than 1 input, making it "somewhat" of a pre-pro. WRT to those companies... they are not in the same price league as Pioneer, Sansui, Yamaha, Technics in the past. (around $1k for a processor)

My wife and I own an "old" Denon AVR-5800 audio/video receiver, which does not have an HDMI input.
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/denon_avr5800.htm

We also own a new, dual-hi-def-format, HP s3330f Slimline HTPC, which does have HDMI output that carries hi def audio formats, so we have no intention of buying a standalone player.

If we wanted to have 7.1 channel audio via the Denon's available separate analog inputs, assuming this box has a good-quality DAC and multi-channel pre-amp inside, it would be the perfect way for us to get hi-def, multichannel audio into our theater.

Thanks for the link.

I am sure it is not what you asked for, but (:) ), I have an Onkyo 805 AVR which I use for this purpose. It decodes all audio formats and it has a set of pre-amp outputs that I then feed to other equipment (in this case, an audio tester). It is a bit pricey though at $900 (the models below don't have pre-amp output).

A whole bunch of companies used to make separate pre-pro such as Yamaha DSP-1, Pioneer DSP-101, Hafler, Technics, Aiwa, Sansui, and the list goes on. I really miss those days. Many still do. OTOH, many of them used to make a stand-alone d/a processor with DD/dts capability. I have a Technics box that does that. Too bad no one except Gefen has take a shot at that with the newer CODECs.

i would have thought at least the higher end companies would want to add the additional support for their equipment that is already out there.
I think they prefer that you sell you car so that you have enough money to buy their next processor :p.

I think they prefer that you sell you car so that you have enough money to buy their next processor :p.

More truth in that statement than people think.

My wife and I own an "old" Denon AVR-5800 audio/video receiver, which does not have an HDMI input.
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/denon_avr5800.htm

We also own a new, dual-hi-def-format, HP s3330f Slimline HTPC, which does have HDMI output that carries hi def audio formats, so we have no intention of buying a standalone player.

If we wanted to have 7.1 channel audio via the Denon's available separate analog inputs, assuming this box has a good-quality DAC and multi-channel pre-amp inside, it would be the perfect way for us to get hi-def, multichannel audio into our theater.

Thanks for the link.

1) Your HTPC isn't going to be outputting the new audio formats as bitstream over HDMI, it's probably HDMI 1.2 at best (so the box is moot).

2) It should be nothing more than a software update to get decoding of TrueHD/DTS-HD MA in software on the HTPC, thus you can just connect the HTPC to the analog inputs of your Denon.

FWIW, I completely understand where your coming from on the processor side, I've got an Anthem AVM-20V2 that I have no intention of replacing just to get bistream decoding. You'll note I'm very hard on HDMI 1.3 for that very reason (I'm also rather hard on Fox for using an audio codec that nothing could decode).

I just think there's no point for a decoder when players can do the decoding, either standalone or HTPC. You should be set as you are today hardware wise, with respect to decoding TrueHD/DTS-HD MA (maybe just a software update).

the reason for asking for it is simple really. additional functionality for a piece of equipment that i really like without having to spend a couple of grand on a new unit.

My point is why would you spend $400 on a decoder box when you can get a player that does the same thing for $500-600? It would be one thing if there weren't (going to be) players that decoded all the new formats, but many of the upcoming players do.

as you mentioned i would really like arcam to come up with a device like this and add some room correction, bass management, eq. , etc. to it. dont need the amps or tuner or video processing or any of those extras you find in a receiver. just audio processing.

Isn't that what an pre-pro is? Especially when you start talking BM/EQ/Room Correction you're talking an expensive piece of equipment.

More truth in that statement than people think.

Hey, that's why HDMI 1.3 exists in the first place.

...ignore

But not every piece of equipment does this. for example the ps3 does not come with analog outs. it has to be connected via hdmi or optical.

True, which is part of the reason I won't get a PS3.

So with this box someone that has a piece of equipment wouldnt have to go out and replace it. 400.00 dollars for the box or 2 grand for a new piece of equipment.

Here's where you lose me, what's the $2000 box you're replacing? Just replace your current player with one that doesn't decode, you're out an extra $100-200 and have an extra BD player in the process.

i think i would have to do the box as i really dont have the cash for the new piece of equipment.

That's where I'm confused, you don't need to replace your pre-pro, just get a BD50 or 05FD.

Is it a pre-pro? i dont think so. i would say that its an audio correction enhancement device as it doesnt handle video. ;)

Well, when you put BM/EQ/Room Correction into it, you're 90% of the way to a pre-pro. Getting all that in a low volume product is going to be very expensive, look at the cost of the standalone Audyssey system.

The only reason for existance of such a box is for ultimate fidelity (i.e. by keeping video signals out of the box). Otherwise, as others have stated, a player with analog out does the job already...

But the functionality of the audyssey system has been implemented on a smaller scale in other recievers like H/K and i believe yamaha etc. with all the bells and whistles that these recievers have they dont cost much. Ha. You picked two of the brands that do NOT have Audyssey. Replace them with Denon and Onkyo, please.;)

the player with the analog outs does the job only if the reciever or pre-pro still adds all the room corrections and other processing to the analog signal that the player doesnt have. by having analogs going to a receiver you may be losing that functionality depending on the receiver or pre-pro.
Now you got me confused :). How is an external box going to solve this problem for you? I assumed you have an AVR with proper set of analog inputs and processing. If you don't, I don't know how the external device can feed audio to it without recompression.

the piece of equipment im talking about having to replace is a receiver or pre-pro that is without hdmi capability. if replacing a good pre-pro is going to cost a couple of grand then its more effective to purchase a d/a converter decoder box that takes the audio through hdmi and outputs it via 7.1 analogs. like the gefen. :) If the converter box only costs 400 bucks there is no need to spend the money to replace a pre-pro or receiver to get more functionality.

But I'd just replace my feature-limited player.

correct but what about the ps3? how am i going to get 7.1 analog from it? or maybe another device down the road that doesnt have analog outs? thats where the gefen or other brand box comes in for 400 bucks. :)

Is there anything that has 7.1? Ok, let's ignore 7.1, is it worth $400 to get game audio over analog? Is game audio even multichannel LPCM?

yes but 90% doesnt make it a whole. if i have an engine and 4 tires i dont have a car. hehehehe. and yes the audyssey system is expensive. One reason i dont have one. But the functionality of the audyssey system has been implemented on a smaller scale in other recievers like denon and i believe onkyo etc. (thanks Kal hehehe) with all the bells and whistles that these recievers have they dont cost much. These receivers might sound like crap to me but they do have many bells and whistles that could be implemented on an audio only type processor box. I wasnt really thinking about price when i was thinking about this as i was really curious why nobody has implemented anything like this.

But those companies (Denon/Onkyo;)) get to defer the cost of implementing Audyssey over a huge number of devices. Something like this is not going to sell nearly as well as a line of Denon/Onkyo recievers so the cost will have to be much higher per device.

In walks Gefen. :) hope they sell a bunch of them.

I'd be somewhat surprised.

do i have you even more confused now? do you understand what im talking about? I sure hope so.

I understand the function the device serves, I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

the player with the analog outs does the job only if the reciever or pre-pro still adds all the room corrections and other processing to the analog signal that the player doesnt have. by having analogs going to a receiver you may be losing that functionality depending on the receiver or pre-pro.

Did I miss something where the Gefen device actually does all that, or are you just wishing? I thought it was just a decoder. So you get no room correction, no eq, no bass management, just decoding.

ok. correct me if i am wrong here but a reciever or pre-pro with analog inputs doesnt perform any processing to the analog signal and the receiver or pre-pro only sends the signal to the amps. hence the reason why the players have built in bass management and speaker size set up since you will be missing this when your player is sending this out via its analogs.

My AVM-20 does BM and Room Resonance filter on the multichannel analogs, I'm sure the D2 does the new ARC (Anthem Room Correction) on the analogs as well. Processors are out there that do it, but yes, most probably don't.

But again, I think you're imparting your wishes on this Gefen device.

this is where the external box, audio processor, comes in with its processing ability.

If there were a device that would take in HDMI 1.3 audio, included Audyssey-type room correction, BM, eq, and did it all for $400, you're right, I could see that being a big deal. I don't think the Gefen device does anything more than take in HBR audio and output the PCM decoding of it.

Just another option. After all, someone did ask for it. :D

Its an interesting option for those with existing non-HDMI HBR capable SSPs that just want to add HDMI and HBR decoders. $400 is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new SSP. Especially if your pre/pro has 7.1 analog inputs. The downside is an additional D/A and A/D step with resulting decrease in SNR.

Question was directed more toward those asking for it. ;)



It's not a pre-pro though, it's just a decoder if I understand correctly, you still need a reciever/pre-pro in addition to the decoder.



Lots of companies still make pre-pros, Anthem, Integra, Arcam, to name a few.

it appears no avr or pre/pro is absolutely necessary.
there are 8 line outputs AND (im 'assuming' from the blurb) 8 20 watt rms amps onboard (1 per channel) which would work for me. with efficient spkrs. u could still use a powered sub.
i didnt see anything about a remote but there 'must' be one. i would think.

if this is decent quality it 'could be a contender'! edit-in its class.

it appears no avr or pre/pro is absolutely necessary.
there are 8 line outputs AND (im 'assuming' from the blurb) 8 20 watt rms amps onboard (1 per channel) which would work for me. with efficient spkrs. u could still use a powered sub.
i didnt see anything about a remote but there 'must' be one. i would think.

if this is decent quality it 'could be a contender'! edit-in its class.

i should add i dont have an avr in any form (ie, no surround), im using a 35 yr old pio. qa800a 4 channel amp. i am not a video/audiophile at all, pretty much a j6p.
this gefen box will hopefully allow me to use the involved codecs (of which, at this point, i know absolutely nothing) with its amps or use the pio amps channels (which are only rated at 25 wts rms) or any combination i want.

ive been looking for something like this in this price range.

Do many receivers add room correction and the like over analog input sources? Pretty sure my denon 2807 won't when i connect my sacd player to it.

............................................
2) It should be nothing more than a software update to get decoding of TrueHD/DTS-HD MA in software on the HTPC, thus you can just connect the HTPC to the analog inputs of your Denon.
............................

Sounds good, but how would I connect our HP s3330f Slimline to the 5800 via analog?


.................................................
My point is why would you spend $400 on a decoder box when you can get a player that does the same thing for $500-600? It would be one thing if there weren't (going to be) players that decoded all the new formats, but many of the upcoming players do.
..........................................

Assuming that the upcoming players indeed decode the formats, and all other things being equal, I agree, but a standalone player can not do many many of the things a HTPC can, especially on the video side. For example, good or bad, I like to zoom the image a bit when I'm watching 2.35:1 movies. To my knowledge, none of the standalones do that, regardless of their price. (And this totally disregards the rest of the almost miraculous things that modern HTPCs can do.)

As it looks doubtful that an affordable decode will be released, I'm probably going to modify my own integrated to separate the signal before it goes to the poweramp secion.

I like my tube amps :)

Sounds good, but how would I connect our HP s3330f Slimline to the 5800 via analog?

Doesn't it have analog outputs?

Assuming that the upcoming players indeed decode the formats, and all other things being equal, I agree, but a standalone player can not do many many of the things a HTPC can, especially on the video side.

But they do do a lot of things on the audio side that PCs don't, like passing HBR audio and multichannel, non-downconverted LPCM.

For example, good or bad, I like to zoom the image a bit when I'm watching 2.35:1 movies. To my knowledge, none of the standalones do that, regardless of their price.

Most displays do though.

(And this totally disregards the rest of the almost miraculous things that modern HTPCs can do.)

I've run HTPCs for years, but one thing they cannot do today, is compete with standalones for Blu-ray playback.

Our PC has one stereo mini analog output.

Our JVC RS1 does not have a zoom.

So far, our pc plays back BDs as well as our trial Sam 5000 did - at least, as far as I can tell sitting 8' from our 120" screen.

I've been looking around at new receivers, and don't alot of the Yamahas have preouts? Even the affordable ones?

I've been looking around at new receivers, and don't alot of the Yamahas have preouts? Even the affordable ones?

IIRC, no. 5.1 or 7.1 in yes, but not pre outs

I've been looking around at new receivers, and don't alot of the Yamahas have preouts? Even the affordable ones?
This used to be standard feature years and years ago but no more. The only I know for sure has it is the Onkyo 801 which is close to $1000. Their lower end units don't have this.

This used to be standard feature years and years ago but no more. The only I know for sure has it is the Onkyo 801 which is close to $1000. Their lower end units don't have this.

a little ot. im assuming that is u in the march '08 ish of wsr. ive been reading it in bits and pieces.
im impressed!

Its an interesting option for those with existing non-HDMI HBR capable SSPs that just want to add HDMI and HBR decoders. $400 is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new SSP. Especially if your pre/pro has 7.1 analog inputs. The downside is an additional D/A and A/D step with resulting decrease in SNR.

True, but compared to decoding in the player there isno extra D/A and A/D conversion.

a little ot. im assuming that is u in the march '08 ish of wsr. ive been reading it in bits and pieces.
im impressed!
Thanks :). That was me. Gary Reber asked me to write a set of articles post that interview which I have accepted to do. The first one is already off to print. And I am in the process of working on the next one. The motivation for the articles by the way, come from discussions on AVS! They are educational pieces, designed to explain how the new world of digital media works.

This is probably not the thread for it but if there are topics folks like to see explained in easy to understand terms, maybe mention it in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=918902.

I have hoped for many years for a device along the lines of this GefenTV Home Theater Audio Processor.

Years ago as I began to integrate surround sound into my high-end two channel audio system I searched for an outboard multi-channel dac to complement my otherwise all analog system. Previously, I had settled on the stupendous McCormack MAP-1 multi-channel all analog preamp. I settled on this preamp over existing digital av preamps then being made as I was fully aware that digital formats would continue to proliferate and force one to continually replace preamps to accommodate new codecs and connectors. I was proved correct over time. Also, since all audio ultimately has to be converted to analog to be heard this seemed like a prudent strategy. I am no stranger to outboard DACs and am currently using DACs from Benchmark and Channel Islands among others I have used.

I have long wondered why no high-end manufacturer has not seen fit to lavish scrutiny on multi-channel DACs such has been lavished on two channel devices?

Also, as a side note, a very much under appreciated feature of the MAP-1 is a circuit called ARM which stands for Ambience Recovery Mode. One may invoke this circuit on any two channel source and it will invoke a form of Dolby Pro Logic that results in a very satisfying surround sound field. This solves a problem I often see on these forums where various cable channels incorrectly broadcast dolby digital type signals with only two channels or missing center channel audio, etc. Using the MAP-1 with the ARM circuitry results in my hearing a very satisfying surround sound on all stereo cable channels. While it may not pass muster for the discrete sound purists, I think many would be hard put to argue with the sound given its universality. I once inquired to none other than Lew Johnson of Conrad Johnson (who manufacture the McCormack in their Northern Virginia HQ) as to the exact implementation details of this unique circuitry but I was understandably deferred due to its proprietary nature. The best I was able to determine was that it shared some lineage to the famous Hafler circuit (which I implemented in my VW bug car stereo in high school in the 70's!) and that it was an all analog implementation. I was interested to later read about a Fosgate product that also implemented Dolby Pro Logic in an all analog fashion. Note to Kal: I was always a bit disappointed in the limited coverage you gave to the MAP-1. I am of course biased but I thought the product offered a unique take on how to unite a high quality two channel and multi-channel audio system.

Getting back to point, I wonder why the GefenTV Home Theater Audio Processor device would not implement multiple hdmi inputs so that it could also serve as an AV switcher? Judging by the popularity of HDMI switchers to make up for the limited hdmi inputs on HDTVs this would seem like a natural addition? I would think the added cost would be minimal? There are a number of devices including Cable STBs, Apple TV, etc that do not include multi-channel analog outputs.

Anyway, it's encouraging to see such a device coming to market.

-CB

P.S.

I was so interested in this product that I just phoned Gefen. I spoke with a support person and explained my idea of adding multiple HDMI inputs. He explained that this was a new product but said that it was in the realm of consideration that my suggestion of multiple inputs could be implemented. He didn't make any commitments but agreed to pass on my product suggestion. He also confirmed that this would work to pass SACD audio and could be upgraded to support newer codecs such as Dobly True HD in the future. If they add multiple inputs I think this is a must purchase for someone like me.

-CB

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He also confirmed that this would work to pass SACD audio and could be upgraded to support newer codecs such as Dobly True HD in the future.
..................................................

I think I may have heard this in the past, so, in the future, let me know when it does it in the present.