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The Official Pioneer 8G KURO Owner's Discussions Thread

3M views 18K replies 2K participants last post by  bigbadbob 
#1 ·
OK, first off, thanks to Roman@Invision for his friendly and fast service.
In the door for ~75%MSRP ain't too shabby either!


An unabashed black-level fan, I have been frustrated since replacing my first HDTV, a 2001 Sony XBR CRT. Many plasmas, LCD's, DLP's,and projectors later, I have landed one of these 8G's, mostly on the strength of this forum and it's like- minded (hello Mr.Harkness) folk. Was a bit skeptical of all the hype from trade shows and such,but hopeful none the less.


Anyway, I've had it (4280)running 4 hrs. now,both in filtered daylight conditions and now some night-time viewing and it does not dissapoint. I have it side by side with a 9G Panny 58 running the same source and having been self-calibrated with AVIA.

Naturally,the PIO is just out of the box, using standard setting for now.


Where to begin?


Universal HD-DVDs open with a starry space-like sky with planet earth in foreground-I have been known to count the stars in it to measure "blackness of space". I tried to take a picture of it, but was far too blurry to publish.

Suffice it to say though, the PIO is a new high, very near to CRT level black, as I remember it.


The one picture attatched is a night scene from the opening of SAT NITE LIVE.

Hopefully, it shows relative black level to the Panny , which may be the best plasma I have had . I know taking pictures like this is a crap-shoot but someone will ask for them anyway. I tried to keep the variables to a minimum.

I can take more if requested but please be patient as I test my new toy.


As far as the sidebars approaching the blackness of the frame, this guy comes pretty close -not quite a total blending, but closer than anything since CRT.


I expect to have an HD-DVD calibration disc by tomorrow, and will try to be better dialed in soon.


First impressions:


Very smooth, almost no dithering, unlike the Panny.


Pure whites,no grey whites here.


Plenty sharp and detailed , better than the 5070 I had.


Natural motion(120hz?) beats the heck out of any LCD I have owned.


Screen a bit more reflective than I thought, Elite will probably be better.


And of course, blacks to beat all ('cept maybe the 'ole CRT)


For the entry price , I think it's a winner.


Roman: Please reserve my 6010 in the fall!


Steve Longo
 
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#8,161 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman /forum/post/11948154


Hi. A technical plasma panel question. A 1080 panel has about twice as many pixels as a 768 panel(2,000,000 vs 1,000,000).

Aproximately, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman /forum/post/11948154


That implies that there is also twice the number of cells

Aproximately, yes (~6million versus ~3million)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman /forum/post/11948154


Are the cell walls on a 1080p panel half as thick as that on a 768 panel?

Not sure, but I can look up the cell diameter not including the walls. From that I can calculate the cell wall diameter from the cell pitch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman /forum/post/11948154


If that is not the case, wouldn't the light ouput be lower on a 1080p panel(due to more non light producing cell material)

Even if it is the case the light output would still be lower. This is because the smaller your make a plasma cell the lower the efficiency due to smaller phosphor surface area and the smaller the discharge area. Also, the plasma discharge comes too close to the wall of the cell and loses energy to the wall (called wall loss).


However, Pioneer has redesigned the cell structure several times over the years to increase efficiency (I think they were the first to be able to produce 1080p at 50" size) such as deepening the cell to increase phosphor area, and using a vapor deposited MgO layer covered with a crystal deposited MgO layer (crystal emmissive layer) to increase discharge probability (and efficiency). With this they achieved 1.8 lumens/watt at 1080p resolution.


With the Kuro panels they have apparently used a secondary MgO (or diamond) layer at the bottom of the cell to increase efficiency and lower the need for priming (resulting in reduced background luminence-lower black level).


To make things even more complicated, the more pixels you have in a plasma the less time you have to address them (one line at a time). And since plasmas use a time-pulse-width modulation to generate grayscale , the brightness is also reduced because there is less time available to emit light.


Altogether, low brightness with 1080p plasmas was one of the biggest problems slowing the time to market but now that cell efficiency is up, and addressing speed is up, the brightness should not be an issue for the consumer.
 
#8,162 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox /forum/post/11950148


Aproximately, yes.


Aproximately, yes (~6million versus ~3million)


Not sure, but I can look up the cell diameter not including the walls. From that I can calculate the cell wall diameter from the cell pitch.


Even if it is the case the light output would still be lower. This is because the smaller your make a plasma cell the lower the efficiency due to smaller phosphor surface area and the smaller the discharge area. Also, the plasma discharge comes too close to the wall of the cell and loses energy to the wall (called wall loss).


However, Pioneer has redesigned the cell structure several times over the years to increase efficiency (I think they were the first to be able to produce 1080p at 50" size) such as deepening the cell to increase phosphor area, and using a vapor deposited MgO layer covered with a crystal deposited MgO layer (crystal emmissive layer) to increase discharge probability (and efficiency). With this they achieved 1.8 lumens/watt at 1080p resolution.


With the Kuro panels they have apparently used a secondary MgO (or diamond) layer at the bottom of the cell to increase efficiency and lower the need for priming (resulting in reduced background luminence-lower black level).


To make things even more complicated, the more pixels you have in a plasma the less time you have to address them (one line at a time). And since plasmas use a time-pulse-width modulation to generate grayscale , the brightness is also reduced because there is less time available to emit light.


Altogether, low brightness with 1080p plasmas was one of the biggest problems slowing the time to market but now that cell efficiency is up, and addressing speed is up, the brightness should not be an issue for the consumer.

That's some good stuff right there !
 
#8,163 ·
I had my 5010FD and Vision HDP/DVI (processor/scaler) calibrated last night and now i can see what others said about "the pop" and the three-D affects. I was using D-Nice setting on my 5010 before the calibration. The man that has been doing my Plasmas said that the settings that i was using were good. Also after the calibration the colors and picture are wonderful ,the picture noise is gone also. I can understand now why calibrators would be reluctant to calibrate the TV and the Vision HDP. To get the TV and the HDP to work together is very time consuming and it also helps if the calibrator has had experience setting up the HDP. Doug www.clearlyresolved.com was here for over 7 hours and he has worked setting up many of Lumagen (processor/scaler) for others.

One other thing the buzzing sounds that other Kuro owners are concerned about are now all but gone on my 5010.


And a big thanks to Doug for doing a wonderful job for me.
 
#8,164 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman /forum/post/11949467


I was just watching Gladiator on TNT as well. I noticed some motion artifact stuff and I'm not sure what to make of it. When there was some fast camera panning, I would see some wavy horizontal lines. No matter what I set the cinema mode to, it would not go away, extremely annoying. Is that what you mean by combing? I've seen it before on my pro150. I have a 1540 and never have seen this before on that panel. Is there something wrong with the 3:2 pulldown features on the 150? Thanks. Ned.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the 150 Ned. By turning the Movie mode off, the effect was reduced about 95%. However, none of the 'on' modes would allow it to go away. I've seen the same effect on my Fujitsus, but I was never sure whether the issue was the source or the display.


I've usually watched the Pioneer with the Movie mode off, so this was one of the first times I've seen this issue on the Pioneer.
 
#8,165 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross /forum/post/11950412


I don't think there's anything wrong with the 150 Ned. By turning the Movie mode off, the effect was reduced about 95%. However, none of the 'on' modes would allow it to go away. I've seen the same effect on my Fujitsus, but I was never sure whether the issue was the source or the display.


I've usually watched the Pioneer with the Movie mode off, so this was one of the first times I've seen this issue on the Pioneer.

Maybe off is the best bet then, and advance when watching blu or hd dvd?
 
#8,167 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox /forum/post/11950148


Aproximately, yes.


Aproximately, yes (~6million versus ~3million)


Not sure, but I can look up the cell diameter not including the walls. From that I can calculate the cell wall diameter from the cell pitch.


Even if it is the case the light output would still be lower. This is because the smaller your make a plasma cell the lower the efficiency due to smaller phosphor surface area and the smaller the discharge area. Also, the plasma discharge comes too close to the wall of the cell and loses energy to the wall (called wall loss).


However, Pioneer has redesigned the cell structure several times over the years to increase efficiency (I think they were the first to be able to produce 1080p at 50" size) such as deepening the cell to increase phosphor area, and using a vapor deposited MgO layer covered with a crystal deposited MgO layer (crystal emmissive layer) to increase discharge probability (and efficiency). With this they achieved 1.8 lumens/watt at 1080p resolution.


With the Kuro panels they have apparently used a secondary MgO (or diamond) layer at the bottom of the cell to increase efficiency and lower the need for priming (resulting in reduced background luminence-lower black level).


To make things even more complicated, the more pixels you have in a plasma the less time you have to address them (one line at a time). And since plasmas use a time-pulse-width modulation to generate grayscale , the brightness is also reduced because there is less time available to emit light.


Altogether, low brightness with 1080p plasmas was one of the biggest problems slowing the time to market but now that cell efficiency is up, and addressing speed is up, the brightness should not be an issue for the consumer.

BTW xrox, I'm going to send you a link to a new patent from Pioneer that deals with a new driver design. With this new "algorithm", the panel will be able to pre-determine which cells do not need luminance (coded as 0) resulting in the driver not sending it a reset command.
 
#8,168 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox /forum/post/11950148


Altogether, low brightness with 1080p plasmas was one of the biggest problems slowing the time to market but now that cell efficiency is up, and addressing speed is up, the brightness should not be an issue for the consumer.

Confirmed - no issues with brightness :)
 
#8,169 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/11950538


... a new patent from Pioneer that deals with a new driver design.

Is this new driver design being used in any of the current Pioneer displays?
 
#8,171 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/11950538


BTW xrox, I'm going to send you a link to a new patent from Pioneer that deals with a new driver design. With this new "algorithm", the panel will be able to pre-determine which cells do not need luminance (coded as 0) resulting in the driver not sending it a reset command.

D-Nice, thank you very much. I always love to learn more
 
#8,173 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/11950538


BTW xrox, I'm going to send you a link to a new patent from Pioneer that deals with a new driver design. With this new "algorithm", the panel will be able to pre-determine which cells do not need luminance (coded as 0) resulting in the driver not sending it a reset command.

Does this mean that Pioneer will be able to generate absolute black?

That would be really huge news.


- Rich
 
#8,174 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB /forum/post/11951183


Does this mean that Pioneer will be able to generate absolute black?

That would be really huge news.


- Rich

I believe the rumour is that the gen after next will have half the BL and twice the brightness ( 4X the CR ). Make that in a 75 inch size and I will be moving my PRO-15OFD into the bedroom :)
 
#8,175 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce /forum/post/11951283


I believe the rumour is that the gen after next will have half the BL and twice the brightness ( 4X the CR ). Make that in a 75 inch size and I will be moving my PRO-15OFD into the bedroom :)

That would be a hell of a thing, and I was wondering if the empire would strike back



I'll take 75 or 70" .


- Rich
 
#8,176 ·
Ken Ross said

"BTW, I'd love to know how the Pioneer VSX-94 impacts on your HDMI switching times. In other words, is it taking the same time, more time or less time when switching from 1 HDMI input to another when going through the receiver as opposed to directly to the 150?

Also, are you using 'pass-through' on the VSX-94 for your HDMI inputs?"


Sorry, but I had a professional installation done. Here's what little I know and also what I observe. My picture comes through a "CAT5 adaptor" that is supposed to give me "HDMI" despite the long run from my component rack (in another room) to the Kuro. My controller is an RTI T2C set up with Rf transmitter. My observation is that switching between TV and DVD player (Toshiba A30), turning the plasma on, changing chanels, going to the Comcast DVR all occurs with totally acceptable speed.


ps, Thanks for your response to my original post!
 
#8,177 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce /forum/post/11951283


I believe the rumour is that the gen after next will have half the BL and twice the brightness ( 4X the CR ). Make that in a 75 inch size and I will be moving my PRO-15OFD into the bedroom :)

So much for 5 years between upgrades.

I have just received my 150 on tuesday and like others have nothing but high praise. I have been semi loyal to Sony over the years but this display really caught my attention.

Currently I am running in pure mode and enjoying it. HD fios broadcasts at times take on a stereoscope/ 3 dimensional feel.

Right now I am setting up the input config. between the 94thx and harmony remote. I let the receiver run the MCACC setup.

Played some demo material, sounds great with full band phase control on. May have a chance this weekend to recheck with a spl meter and RTA.

May also play with video calibration using a Spyder tv pro (i know it doesn't compare to the equipment UMR or Dnice use) but at a hobby level it will have to do.


So far this display is great, I have only started to discover the displays capabilities.


Thanks again to all who have posted their comments and findings.
 
#8,178 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross /forum/post/0


In the test I just completed watching Gladiator in HD (1080i) on TNT, I'd tell you to leave off the Film modes for 1080i movie material. There were a couple of scenes with significant combing with any of the Film modes. Since I had the movie buffered on my FIOS PVR, I was able to replay the scenes and the only time the combing went away (or nearly so) was when the Film Mode was set to 'off'.

Your observations seem to contradict the results of many tests passed by the Kuros. For example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/0


CNET said: "In terms of video processing, the Pioneer did a fine job of deinterlacing 1080i content, passing the HQV test with in every Film Mode except Off." Others have made similar comments. Some have stated that Pioneers are slow identifying 3:2 without making a distinction between modes.

How could standard mode create deinterlacing errors? It must've been the source...
 
#8,180 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by danbysbane /forum/post/11951570


Your observations seem to contradict the results of many tests passed by the Kuros. For example:

How could standard mode create deinterlacing errors? It must've been the source...

Either the source or the DVR.


Wouldn't that make you a little crazy if you were the original poster that brought this up? Sounds like something I'd run into.
 
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