Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3]

[John Haghighi]

Originally Posted by amirm

Sure. I will pass on.


WMA Pro algorithm is not public so I cannot talk about the details in the algorithm. In general however, our design goal was 2X more efficiency than DD/DTS. In double blind tests at 760 kbps, we matched the performance of DTS at 1.5 mbit/sec for example (5.1).

WMA Pro supports both lossy and lossless encoding. It will dynamically switch between the two as necessary but you can force it to encode strictly in lossless mode.


Yes, and no. The lossless mode in WMP is indeed a subset of WMA Pro algorithm. WMA Pro however, goes beyond that, with support for 7.1 channels and 24-bit, 96khz support and lossy/lossless encoding.


One small note here: all the encoders in 360 are running in real-time. As such, their performance is somewhat different than off-line software encoder which can take their time encoding.

.

So is what is the difference between WMA 10 Pro and WMA 9 Pro, and which does the 360 and AV receivers support, both? Is 10 backwards compatible with 9 decoders?

Since WMA Lossless is a subset of WMA Pro can we assume the AV receivers that support WMA Pro playback WMA Lossless?


You mention that the the WMA Pro can dynamically switch between lossy and lossless, can this be done running in real-time? Will it be forced to lossy in the 360?

Unclear about WMAL, if it is a distinct codec from WMA, does the WMA Lossless codec have a hybrid/lossy mode?

[amirm]

Originally Posted by Hixxy

Hi

got question for amirm about vga 16:10 aspect problem that is currently on xbox hardware forum over 500 posts on this subject still nothing from microsoft,

Can't post url due to restrictions in place but if you go to xbox hardware forum and post is called "Need 16:10 Resolution Support... 1440x900... 1680x1050..."

we've try to contact hardware customer support directly but keep getting run around one customer support rep said it was being resolved and other denied it.

Question is do you know if we will be getting 1440x900 - 1680x1050 support in next update to help resolve this issue.

Sorry to be so direct i know may not be able to answer this question but any input would be great thanks

Those resolutions are NOT part of the update.

However, don't worry about reaching people inside Microsoft about it. I have firmly communicated your needs to the Xbox hardware team and doing my best to convince them to support them in the future. But right now, I don't have anything to report on it.

[amirm]

Originally Posted by John Haghighi

So is what is the difference between WMA 10 Pro and WMA 9 Pro, and which does the 360 and AV receivers support, both? Is 10 backwards compatible with 9 decoders?

I don't recall what changes we made from 9 to 10. But as far as I know, 10 is backward compatible with 9. And the 360 update has been tested and works with receivers such as Pioneer.

Since WMA Lossless is a subset of WMA Pro can we assume the AV receivers that support WMA Pro playback WMA Lossless?

Unfortunately not. WMA lossless is a stand-alone codec that while being a subset of WMA Pro, has its own syntax which is incompatible with WMA Pro decoders.

Note that WMA Lossless is just stereo (the version in WMA Pro is multi-channel). As such, the source can decode it and easily send it over coax/toslink, etc. and travel that way to the receiver, obviating the need to have a decoder there. WMA Pro however, cannot fit over that channel and hence the reason it was ported to DSPs used in AVRs.

You mention that the the WMA Pro can dynamically switch between lossy and lossless, can this be done running in real-time? Will it be forced to lossy in the 360?

I can't get into details of this. But it is a dynamic thing that the codec uses as it is encoding.

Unclear about WMAL, if it is a distinct codec from WMA, does the WMA Lossless codec have a hybrid/lossy mode?

WMA Lossless is a different codec than regular WMA. We could have made it a subset of WMA but it would not have been as efficient.

[amirm]

Originally Posted by Bar81

So the question then is, given the May 7th dashboard update confirmed date, is the decoupled HD DVD update going to come before or after May 7th?

I am sorry but I can't comment on the schedule that way. Because if I said it, and something changed, then I get even more unhappy posts .

[amirm]

Someone asked where the DTS update is, in dashboard udpate or HD DVD. The answer is the later.

So to summarize, you need the dashboard update for VGA level setting. All the other fixes you are looking for from new encoding options, fixed audio decoding dynamic range, lip sync, title compatibility, etc., is in the HD DVD udpate. And the dates are seperate for each update.

Hope this helps.

[StevenZ]

Could the insiders and outsiders take off-topic discussions (WMA, 16:10 gaming resolutions, and other non-HD-DVD questions about Xbox 360, etc.) to another thread, please?

[amirm]

Originally Posted by StevenZ

Could the insiders and outsiders take off-topic discussions (WMA, 16:10 gaming resolutions, and other non-HD-DVD questions about Xbox 360, etc.) to another thread, please?

Kind of impractical to take these questions elsewhere seeing how I can only comment in this thread.

Besides, it is not like there are a hundred other questions being asked and getting lost in the shuffle.

Still, since you all initiate questions and I follow, if the stream stops, we will get to where you want us to be, without insiders needing to do anything.

[cyberbri]

Amir,

Regarding the new options for HD-DVD playback (0 vs 7.5, Night Mode ON/OFF, etc.), I know the HD-DVD update will be separate from the Dashboard update, but will these be inside a special HD-DVD setup menu? Or will they be in a new section somewhere in the Dashboard? Right now there is no setup menu like standard DVD and HD players have.

[alfbinet]

Originally Posted by amirm

Besides, it is not like there are a hundred other questions being asked and getting lost in the shuffle.

Still, since you all initiate questions and I follow, if the stream stops, we will get to where you want us to be, without insiders needing to do anything.

Amir, why? Talk comments on other threads.

[Ken H]

Originally Posted by StevenZ

Could the insiders and outsiders take off-topic discussions (WMA, 16:10 gaming resolutions, and other non-HD-DVD questions about Xbox 360, etc.) to another thread, please?

No.

[Dahlsim]

Originally Posted by alfbinet

Amir, why? Talk comments on other threads.

This thread was a solution to a problem where the valuable resource of insiders was not being taken advantage of properly. I think collecting their knowledge in one closely moderated location has been a great solution to that problem.

The thread does at times get more broad than just "blu-ray/hd-dvd" but that a seems a small price to pay.

@Amir, @Ben or other MS insider. There is a fair amount of 360 related questions here. Clearly the Xbox 360 elite is geared toward increased emphasis on HD video downloads. Can you answer questions as it relates to MS Xbox 360 HD video download service or is there a better place to ask questions about that service?

[tanukibear]

Hey Amir and Ben,

I've been reading a lot of what you've been writing here, and am very appreciative of what you have going on here. One of the things Microsoft and its employees have done right compared to their competitors in the video game space is that they have some sense of community between employees/insiders and consumers. Though I'm still reading and catching up on things, I still haven't found an adequate answer to a question that's been burning in the back of my mind for a good long while.

My initial read of the features sounded like there might have been a fix for 1080p over VGA, but your responses to someone else who had problems with a Sony TV/Monitor actually sounds like there may not be a proper fix after all. My BenQ FP241W can do 1920x1080 just fine with a PC and a Mac, through either VGA or DVI (this should be expected, as it is a computer monitor after all), but my 360 chokes and sputters pretty badly, giving me a wildly distorted picture (stretched vertically beyond the limits of the screen, and placed on the far right so far that I can't see half the picture). To compensate, I am running it at 1280x1024 in widescreen mode.

Frankly, this is not only disappointing, but also leads me to purchase Blu-Ray discs over HD-DVD and will lead me to purchase more PS3 games over 360 games in the future (at least the ones that are multiplatform and support 1080p...there are few so far). If Microsoft can't get VGA resolutions right, then I have less of a reason to support them over their main competitor, which actually did nail that resolution right the first time.

I've been in contact repeatedly with MS tech support, and even got in contact with Major Nelson who assured me via email that the "team would look into it," but so far, nothing. Will the Spring update provide proper 1080p over VGA for games and HD-DVD's? I'm not about to go out and buy an Elite at this point (my monitor has HDMI, but my PS3 is occupying it, and I'm not willing to buy another 360 since I already own one), so this means I will be shifting more to the Sony side of things if Microsoft can't get it right.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by amirm

My reaction to this program ["Phase Hydra"] was actually different than what people seem to worry about. Yes, having more shills here would be bad. But you all are excellent in weeding them out. Few can show up here and pretend to speak “our language” within two days of indoctrination. Certainly AVS is too sophisticated for cheap games like this.

...

Unfortunately, some of this detail is not in Alex’s post so I can’t be too specific. But suffice it to say, the broad brush they are using to paint here might cause them trouble. Professional marketing people have little understanding of the dynamics here and elsewhere and it shows from the list of the targets they have. And there is so much you can try to market and influence bloggers and such before they lose their credibility and have the whole thing backfire on you as a result.

Let me be very clear here. Alex stated the following:

Originally Posted by amillians

The BDA has formally kicked off a new PR campaign called "Phase Hydra"....its purpose is to seed "high profile" forums with Blu-ray advocates and target bloggers to promote Blu-ray to get the word out to the world...the campaign will also focus on "smaller, independent studio issues"...

Here (word-for-word) is exactly what was presented:

• Phase “Hydra”: strengthen PR tactics with bloggers, deal with smaller independent studio issues, etc.

Nothing about "seeding", "high profile", or "Blu-ray advocates". This bullet simply refers to BDA representation not being as visible here and in other active high-def forums as has representation from the HD DVD camp. Paidgeek's efforts here on the forum stem in part from this understanding. Do you consider him a "shill", or his input non-credible?

Alex is breaching someone's trust by posting confidential documents, and when the information is presented out of context from the full verbal presentation it's even more prone to mis-representation.

- Talk

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by Jeff Williams

BD-J is still an issue along different players. Finding a happy medium between them all is getting harder and harder as the interactivity gets more complex.

I can assure you a great deal of effort is going into ensuring that the frustrations you've encountered authoring advanced content are short-term.

- Talk

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by StevenZ

Is "BD-Live" the final, sanctioned name for the network-connectable feature?

To my knowledge, yes.

Will Profile 1.1 get a name?

In the formal specification it is referred to as BD-ROM Profile 1. I suspect it will probably be simply referred to as "BD-Video" in the marketplace.

If Profile 1.1 is mandatory for players after 31 Oct 07, will Profile 2 be mandatory at some point (perhaps with exclusions for portable players or other device classes)? If not, do you think Profile 2 will always be a step-up feature, or will it just become normal?

It has been made optional to provide manufacturers the option to differentiate their products. I suspect it will be found on the vast majority of players, however.

If (as Talk suggests) Fox intends to release discs that use Profile-2 features in 2007, my guess is that there will be one or two P2 players to test against, or maybe to buy, by the end of the year. What will kick off the big push for Profile 2 players? CES 2008?

I don't have any speculation here.

- Talk

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by alfbinet

Samsung Universal Player in July? Looking for BD folk input. Has Samsung Gone Neutral?

Amir responded any BD or Samsung folks here to give credence or deny?

Only Samsung can deny this, and to my knowledge they have not had a presence here. Don't take a lack of response from other BD insiders as confirmation that this rumored player is coming.

- Talk

[chad_cincy]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

• Phase “Hydra”: strengthen PR tactics with bloggers, deal with smaller independent studio issues, etc.

[snip] This bullet simply refers to BDA representation not being as visible here and in other active high-def forums... [snip]
- Talk

Talk,

The bullet actually doesn't refer to high-def forums at all. Is there more to this, than this one bullet? I'm just trying to wrap my head around how both you and Alex agree on particular forums being an area of interest if this is truly the complete and only source of information of "Phase Hydra".

Thanks for your candor and willingness to discuss it with us, Talk.

[John Haghighi]

Originally Posted by amirm

Unfortunately not. WMA lossless is a stand-alone codec that while being a subset of WMA Pro, has its own syntax which is incompatible with WMA Pro decoders.

Note that WMA Lossless is just stereo (the version in WMA Pro is multi-channel). As such, the source can decode it and easily send it over coax/toslink, etc. and travel that way to the receiver, obviating the need to have a decoder there.

Does this mean the WMA Lossless can be decoded on the 360 today and sent over toslink as DD? What happens after the HD DVD update? Re-encode to WMA Pro?

What about the Elite 360, can WMA Lossless be decoded and sent over HDMI as two channel PCM?

[amirm]

Originally Posted by Dazog

I hope the new AACS update isn't what is holding the new HD-DVD update from getting in our hands?

I'd rather have another small update next month when they do change over keys.

No, there is nothing related to AACS since our implementation was not breached (even though the drive may have been used in other applications).

What takes a long time is testing 200+ titles with every build of the system to make sure there are no regressions.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by chad_cincy

The bullet actually doesn't refer to high-def forums at all. Is there more to this, than this one bullet? I'm just trying to wrap my head around how both you and Alex agree on particular forums being an area of interest if this is truly the complete and only source of information of "Phase Hydra".

There is no other reference in the entire 42-page presentation to "Hydra", blogging, forums, or anything else which could possibly suggest what has been inferred here from Alex's misleading paraphrasing of the presentation.

Thanks for your candor and willingness to discuss it with us, Talk.

I'm not comfortable posting verbatim here from a confidential document, but I feel it's better to clear the air than to let misinformation inform the agenda...

[John Haghighi]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

There is no other reference in the entire 42-page presentation to "Hydra", blogging, forums, or anything else which could possibly suggest what has been inferred here from Alex's misleading paraphrasing of the presentation.
I'm not comfortable posting verbatim here from a confidential document, but I feel it's better to clear the air than to let misinformation inform the agenda...

Thanks for posting the clarification, your explanation is perfectly clear. Can we expect more BD insiders participation here?

[amirm]

Originally Posted by tanukibear

My initial read of the features sounded like there might have been a fix for 1080p over VGA, but your responses to someone else who had problems with a Sony TV/Monitor actually sounds like there may not be a proper fix after all.

Hmmm. I am not sure what I said that would sound this way . We have fixed all the problems we know of with Sony XBR LCDs.

My BenQ FP241W can do 1920x1080 just fine with a PC and a Mac, through either VGA or DVI (this should be expected, as it is a computer monitor after all), but my 360 chokes and sputters pretty badly, giving me a wildly distorted picture (stretched vertically beyond the limits of the screen, and placed on the far right so far that I can't see half the picture). To compensate, I am running it at 1280x1024 in widescreen mode.

It is hard for us to comment on any and all display issues. Sometimes the problem is in the display and requires work arounds (which other vendors might already have). I suggest testing it against the spring update and see if there are improvements.

Frankly, this is not only disappointing, but also leads me to purchase Blu-Ray discs over HD-DVD and will lead me to purchase more PS3 games over 360 games in the future (at least the ones that are multiplatform and support 1080p...there are few so far). If Microsoft can't get VGA resolutions right, then I have less of a reason to support them over their main competitor, which actually did nail that resolution right the first time.

Unfortunately, it is not all up to us. Display problems can be at either end. Over time, one accumulates a lot of work arounds to deal with them across large majority of displays. But given the fact that we recently enabled 1080p timing on VGA, some problems are to be expected, given the state of the industry. I am sorry for the inconvenience this causes anyone.

I've been in contact repeatedly with MS tech support, and even got in contact with Major Nelson who assured me via email that the "team would look into it," but so far, nothing. Will the Spring update provide proper 1080p over VGA for games and HD-DVD's? I'm not about to go out and buy an Elite at this point (my monitor has HDMI, but my PS3 is occupying it, and I'm not willing to buy another 360 since I already own one), so this means I will be shifting more to the Sony side of things if Microsoft can't get it right.

The team tells me that they have found/fixed a number of issues related to this. Unfortunately, per above I can’t guarantee that your specific problem is fixed. If it is not, you should feel free to scream at me and I will make sure the Xbox senior managers know about it. Deal?

[TwisTz]

Originally Posted by amirm

What takes a long time is testing 200+ titles with every build of the system to make sure there are no regressions.

I'm sure we would be happy to test all the 200+ titles if you could slip us the update discreetly.

[amirm]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Let me be very clear here. Alex stated the following:

Here (word-for-word) is exactly what was presented:

• Phase “Hydra”: strengthen PR tactics with bloggers, deal with smaller independent studio issues, etc.

Nothing about "seeding", "high profile", or "Blu-ray advocates". This bullet simply refers to BDA representation not being as visible here and in other active high-def forums as has representation from the HD DVD camp. Paidgeek's efforts here on the forum stem in part from this understanding. Do you consider him a "shill", or his input non-credible?

Alex is breaching someone's trust by posting confidential documents, and when the information is presented out of context from the full verbal presentation it's even more prone to mis-representation.

- Talk

Talk, as you noticed, I have not said much beyond what Alex has mentioned. So I am unclear as to nature of your objection regarding my post. If you genuinely want to address people's concerns, do as I suggested: “tell it all, tell it now. “ Go ahead and fully disclose the plans and let people see if there is something bad in it. Or let the topic die, as it was nicely doing on its own before you renewed it .

[Talkstr8t]

Sorry, Amir, while I know you're not a fan of direct insider discussion, I just can't let this one go unanswered. I'll understand if you choose not to respond...

Originally Posted by amirm

Really, I don't understand how you consider BD just as good. HD DVD mandates two more codecs than BD. That ought to provide more flexibility than not.

20GB provides a lot more flexibility than does another codec. Worst case the hit for Blu-ray not having mandatory TrueHD support is the need to include an additional 640kb/sec DD track alongside the TrueHD track, which by my calculation would be an extra 824MB for a three hour movie, or less than 5% of the additional capacity afforded by Blu-ray. And with both Sony and Disney indicating plans for 80% of upcoming releases to be BD-50, I won't accept your argument that BD-25 will be the norm and that Blu-ray bears no capacity advantage.

The more "forward looking" format has made networking standard so that you can have open ended capacity and bandwidth.

Just because BD gives manufacturers and consumers the ability to choose the featureset they desire (i.e. networking support) doesn't in any way suggest it is a less "forward looking" format. For my money mandating far higher capacity and bandwidth buys much more flexibility than does mandating network support. Blu-ray supports the same "open-ended capacity and bandwidth" you attribute to HD DVD for anyone who chooses to buy a network-enabled player. Meanwhile Blu-ray took the necessary companion step of mandating 1GB of local storage capability for all network-connected players. The feature you describe would be useless without sufficient local storage. Is there any mandate that more than 128MB be provided on HD DVD, or a mandate that USB or memory slots be present to support external storage? Without this companion requirement to mandatory network support a given HD DVD consumer is no more guaranteed to be able to access network-delivered audio than would be a given Blu-ray Disc consumer who may or may not have a network-enabled player. The fact that a good percentage of HD DVD network-enabled players won't be attached to a network also dilutes your argument that network-delivered audio tracks make up for HD DVD's capacity deficit.

- Talk

[huntaar]

Originally Posted by amirm

What takes a long time is testing 200+ titles with every build of the system to make sure there are no regressions.

Amir,

Has there been any talk of starting a beta program for the HD DVD add-on software updates? Who better to test all the ins and outs than a bunch of home theatre nuts? We'd be happy getting the updates sooner and MS, hopefully, wouldn't need to put in as many man hours testing against all the different HT configurations. A win-win!

[John Haghighi]

Originally Posted by amirm

Hmmm. I am not sure what I said that would sound this way . We have fixed all the problems we know of with Sony XBR LCDs.

The Sony XBR2 RPTV's are the ones that never worked with VGA or any of the updates provided thus far.

It is hard for us to comment on any and all display issues. Sometimes the problem is in the display and requires work arounds (which other vendors might already have)

Does this mean that the alleged Console update in May will not include a fix for these Sony XBR2 RPTV displays?

Should we be pushing Sony for a fix?

[Michael76706]

Amirm or other MS insider,
I have a Samsung ln-s4095d will the update help with the washed out colors that the vga cable produces on this tv?

[BioSehnsucht]

Amir or other MS Insider:

A thought just occured to me, that since there was some theory (I don't believe it was ever confirmed) that the reason 1080P resolution timings don't work with CRTs (because of a reduced blanking interval) is that the 'Ana' analog chip was being maxed out, and did not have the the bandwidth to increase the horizontal blanking to normal timings.

Will the elite be limited to the same reduced blanking intervals that the normal 360 is, or will the new output stage allow for normal 1080P/60 timing and therefore CRT compatibility. Also, if it can do so, will it be limited to just HDMI or analog output, or work for both?

While I was previously of the mindset that multichannel LPCM via HDMI was a deal maker/breaker for me, it occurs to me that being able to properly support 1080P with normal timings would also sell me on buying a new 360, despite the lack of LPCM surround.

Secondarily, if it is a bandwidth constraint as theorized on the older 360 models, would there be a possibility of a future update bringing a reduced horizontal resolution 1080P mode, to bring the necessary bandwidth in line with what is available to the system? Since my only other option is 1280x720P anyways (unless a 1080i VGA option is added), and 1920x1080i seems to work fine, then something around 960x1080P should be possible. That is giving up half the horizontal detail, but I'd rather lose some horizontal resolution than lose resolution in both axes - at least it would be an even 2:1 reduction and not fractional 1.5:1. As long as the timings matched 1080P60, it shouldn't matter to display devices if the horizontal picture data was 960 'double wide' pixels.

[tanukibear]

Originally Posted by amirm

Hmmm. I am not sure what I said that would sound this way . We have fixed all the problems we know of with Sony XBR LCDs.

Actually, I'm having a hard time finding that comment again...not sure where it went scampering off to, or maybe I just misread something concerning Sony TV's. I know that Sony customers were the most vocal during the initial release of 1080p, so they were pretty much the only ones with 1080p over VGA problems that have received a fix so far, though I don't think the fix addresses ALL Sony TV's.

Unfortunately, it is not all up to us. Display problems can be at either end.

True enough, but there were a lot of us who had this problem with a myriad of different displays (many of them actually seemed to be computer monitors, like mine). Most of us have given up complaining about it though, since Microsoft seemed to have given up on us non-Sony customers with 1080p VGA problems. We all were vocal about it for a while on the 360 forums and on Major Nelson's page, though. If you'd like links, I will do my best to provide some, though I may have a little trouble finding it now...it has been a while since the initial two 1080p updates, after all.

This combined with my LCD's proven ability to display 1920x1080 correctly leads me to believe it's probably more the 360 than my BenQ display.

The team tells me that they have found/fixed a number of issues related to this. Unfortunately, per above I can’t guarantee that your specific problem is fixed. If it is not, you should feel free to scream at me and I will make sure the Xbox senior managers know about it. Deal?

Is this for the current Dashboard or the Update to come soon? If it's the former, it ain't workin' now, and my lungs are tired from all the screaming I've already done. If it's the latter, I will be sure to let you and many others know, as I have done before.

Many thanks, Amir.