It's official: Formula 1 will be in 4:3 SD on FOX for the next 4 races.

[TVOD]

Originally Posted by Ken H

This sounds reasonable, but is rarely the case. Most HD does not gererate any additional revenue.

This is true, but if that philopshphy was followed, why would any of the TV networks adopt HD now? I understand the producers future proofing their programs, but that doesn't mean it has to be broadcast in HD. Perhaps it's seeding the viewers' interest now in HD to keep them interested later.

HD is one thing, but the technical costs of WS over 4:3 SD is minimal. If the barrier is a significant cost difference determined by the rights holder, then I would say it's a very stupid decision on their part. It wouldn't surprise me as Fox is the biggest proponent of WS SD as an alternative to HD among the commercial networks. The good upconverted WS SD on Fox is IMO much better than 4:3 SD.

[foxeng]

Originally Posted by TVOD

If the barrier is a significant cost difference determined by the rights holder, then I would say it's a very stupid decision on their part.

Sure it stupid, but so is raising the price of gas several times with the same tank of fuel. Not smart but it is done all of the time. It is called "business."

We can continue to argue the points, but that still doesn't change the facts.

[thepicman]

Well, we sold our USGP seats because we are going to Le Mans this year, so since we will be in France for the Montreal and USGP, I guess we will be watching in WS. Assuming we can find a WS to watch it on

-TPM

[Offline]

Sorry about the reply delay, it was a busy week...

Originally Posted by sneals2000

So does this mean you get uninterrupted coverage, or that your guys are filling the ITV ad break gaps in-vision, until ITV continue with coverage? With any Aussie ad breaks added on top of this via time-shifting?

We go to a break when the UK does but upon returning, it is at the same lap we left at so the local crew fill in the (time shifted) 3 or so minutes until the UK team are back from the break. In other words, it is shifted (at the end) by around 20 or so minutes). Not that it matters as recently it has been at least a 6 hour delay for no apparent reason. I can't understand why we don't get it live in the afternoon rather than an 11pm start after that painful Big Brother (Australia) "live" show.

Originally Posted by sneals2000

Do you get the ITV presentation in-vision as well as the commentary out-of-vision?

I assume you mean "in-vision" as in video from the pits, etc. If so, we don't. This can be rather annoying as we hear Ted in the pits and Martin talking about a replay yet we only see the race with no boxout of what they are talking about. Do you get the video when Louise is talking to the drivers? We don't, it is only audio for us.

Originally Posted by sneals2000

Ah - by the way it is "ITV" (in some logo forms "itv") but not "iTV"! ... iTV is the generic UK abbreviation for Interactive TeleVision (i.e. what happens when you "press the red button" on your remote)

I never knew that, I always thought it was meant to be iTV. Thanks for the information, I won't be getting that wrong (btw, we don't have any interactive button here but I heard about that at the DBA (Digital Broadcasting Australia) website.

Originally Posted by sneals2000

1. If upconverting the SD 16:9 feed to HD 16:9 means it has to be routed through an HD control room (to add local graphics, stings, replays etc.) then this will cost more than an SD operation... 16:9 SD handling natively is not routine in the US.

I keep forgetting these things as locally we have all content upconverted all the time (one SD channel and one HD - if the show isn't HD it is 576i -> 1080i UC). I don't think the overlays would be that concerning to FOX either as at best they would add a watermark since the FOM vision has all the stats already.

In the end it must be a technical reason IMO, it just seems a bit unnecessary otherwise... then again, if ESPN2 is adding bars to crop to 4:3 then perhaps there is more to the story.

Originally Posted by foxeng

anything over 4:3 SD here in the states is considered a premium charge and so they can ask for that premium charge... for whatever reason FOX has decided it is not in their financial interest to pay for anything more than 4:3 SD

As above, I forget that the US way of broadcasting is different to here (being mostly SD widescreen). I always think that now the F1 is in WS (and Speed has been showing it this way) that there is no reason to be 4:3. I am not saying that I know anything about how it works, I was only suggesting it is strange that the only country that doesn't get it in WS is the one it is being broadcast from. Anyway, at least you can still watch it, 4:3 for fans is better than nothing.

[slowmo]

I've been watching F1 since the days of ESPN. Meanwhile, my viewing habits have clearly shifted towards HD content. Basically, F1 has been all that I'll watch in SD and I've reached my limit with it.

While F1 has never been about competitive races, the increased restrictions in recent years (no qualy engines/tires, etc.) have greatly diluted the brand's only differentiating factor - technology. Add the arrogance of little Bernie, the FIM and certain team principals and you get a very tiresome, insincere and mediocre experience evocative of an over-hyped LA restaurant.

I'm done with F1 and I'm moving to pushrod V8's in glorious HD / 5.1. Let me know if anything changes but I'm not holding my breath.

[CKNA]

Originally Posted by Offline

Sorry about the reply delay, it was a busy week...



We go to a break when the UK does but upon returning, it is at the same lap we left at so the local crew fill in the (time shifted) 3 or so minutes until the UK team are back from the break. In other words, it is shifted (at the end) by around 20 or so minutes). Not that it matters as recently it has been at least a 6 hour delay for no apparent reason. I can't understand why we don't get it live in the afternoon rather than an 11pm start after that painful Big Brother (Australia) "live" show.



I assume you mean "in-vision" as in video from the pits, etc. If so, we don't. This can be rather annoying as we hear Ted in the pits and Martin talking about a replay yet we only see the race with no boxout of what they are talking about. Do you get the video when Louise is talking to the drivers? We don't, it is only audio for us.



I never knew that, I always thought it was meant to be iTV. Thanks for the information, I won't be getting that wrong (btw, we don't have any interactive button here but I heard about that at the DBA (Digital Broadcasting Australia) website.



I keep forgetting these things as locally we have all content upconverted all the time (one SD channel and one HD - if the show isn't HD it is 576i -> 1080i UC). I don't think the overlays would be that concerning to FOX either as at best they would add a watermark since the FOM vision has all the stats already.

In the end it must be a technical reason IMO, it just seems a bit unnecessary otherwise... then again, if ESPN2 is adding bars to crop to 4:3 then perhaps there is more to the story.



As above, I forget that the US way of broadcasting is different to here (being mostly SD widescreen). I always think that now the F1 is in WS (and Speed has been showing it this way) that there is no reason to be 4:3. I am not saying that I know anything about how it works, I was only suggesting it is strange that the only country that doesn't get it in WS is the one it is being broadcast from. Anyway, at least you can still watch it, 4:3 for fans is better than nothing.

ESPN does not crap 16:9 anymore. They show 16:9 upconverted to 720p.

For FOX there is no reason not to do widescreen other than laziness, as they show SD 16:9 shows all the time and have been doing it for years.

[jp23mc]

I don't think I ever remember any of the 4 major networks upconverting an SD 16:9 to HD (other than individual legacy cameras at live events), so why would they start that now? And comparing Fox to ESPN is not really apples to apples. ESPN has made a concerted effort and capital investment to bring as much sports as possible in HD, where the 4 majors have done their best to drag their feet. In fact, Fox has always seemed ahead of the HD game as far as networks go. Heck, CBS had the same NFL contract as Fox but broadcasted half as many games in HD last year.

What everybody should be questioning is why the premiere form of motorsport in the world is still not broadcasting in HD. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard a word complaining about how Uncle Bernie has kept the most technologically advanced racing series in the broadcasting Dark Ages.

[foxeng]

Originally Posted by jp23mc

What everybody should be questioning is why the premiere form of motorsport in the world is still not broadcasting in HD.

That is an easy one. It may be the world's premiere motorsport, but in the US, it doesn't have the viewership. Early on in the this thread, this was all hashed out. No need to rehash it now.

[CycloneGT]

Originally Posted by jp23mc

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard a word complaining about how Uncle Bernie has kept the most technologically advanced racing series in the broadcasting Dark Ages.

Don't forget that Europe is about 5 years behind us as far as HDTV is concerned, even though they get the same LCDs and Plamas as we do from Asia.

[slowmo]

Originally Posted by jp23mc

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard a word complaining about how Uncle Bernie has kept the most technologically advanced racing series in the broadcasting Dark Ages.

Bernie is an imp; what do you expect?

[slowbiscuit]

Originally Posted by jp23mc

What everybody should be questioning is why the premiere form of motorsport in the world is still not broadcasting in HD. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard a word complaining about how Uncle Bernie has kept the most technologically advanced racing series in the broadcasting Dark Ages.

It might be the most technically advanced, but to call it 'the premier form of motorsport in the world' is a huge stretch. I'm guessing that NASCAR or IndyCar is just too low-brow, right? As usual, 'the world' here never includes the US.

[raaj]

Originally Posted by slowbiscuit

It might be the most technically advanced, but to call it 'the premier form of motorsport in the world' is a huge stretch. I'm guessing that NASCAR or IndyCar is just too low-brow, right? As usual, 'the world' here never includes the US.

Quid-Pro-Quo my friend.. quid-pro-quo !!

NBA and NFL champions are heralded "World Champions" when each of them have only in fact won the championship of the corresponding National body/league of that sport in the North America. Having foreign players and being telecast in other countries of the world does not make them "World Champions" any more than what makes Formula1 the "premier form of motorsport" in the world.

Indianapolis Motor Speedway is the racing capital of the world !! (So says the banner on the speedway at Indy..) .. What does that make tracks like Monaco, Silverstone and Suzuka? Chop liver??

Anyway, I am in a grumpy mood today since Fox screwed up and did not telecast the qualifying rounds of the Montreal GP.

[spd476]

Since FOM is producing the race in widescreen SD, isn't that what Fox will be receiving? Why can't they simply pass along the widescreen feed?

I assume that the Fox broadcasts are meant to bring in new and more viewers to the sport. If that's the case, why are they only scheduling a 2 hour broadcast? The races on speed are 2.5 hours and include a 30 minute prerace show. Since Fox is trying to reach a new audience, the prerace show would be useful to explain this form of racing. I think it's going to confuse the audience when the Fox broadcast starts and the cars have already left on the formation lap. In my area, there is just paid programming before the race, so it's not like they would be preempting something important.

[pip11]

Originally Posted by spd476

I assume that the Fox broadcasts are meant to bring in new and more viewers to the sport. If that's the case, why are they only scheduling a 2 hour broadcast? The races on speed are 2.5 hours and include a 30 minute prerace show. Since Fox is trying to reach a new audience, the prerace show would be useful to explain this form of racing. I think it's going to confuse the audience when the Fox broadcast starts and the cars have already left on the formation lap. In my area, there is just paid programming before the race, so it's not like they would be preempting something important.

Agreed; one of my favorite parts of the broadcast is watching Peter push his way through the starting grid pre-race. I doubt we'll see any of that for the next month. Also, with Montreal's propensity for safety cars, the race could last longer than expected. I don't know if there is a contractual obligation to show the trophy presentation or not, but there probably won't be much time for post-race analysis. We'll find out tomorrow morning.

[raaj]

Originally Posted by spd476

Since FOM is producing the race in widescreen SD, isn't that what Fox will be receiving? Why can't they simply pass along the widescreen feed?

I assume that the Fox broadcasts are meant to bring in new and more viewers to the sport. If that's the case, why are they only scheduling a 2 hour broadcast? The races on speed are 2.5 hours and include a 30 minute prerace show. Since Fox is trying to reach a new audience, the prerace show would be useful to explain this form of racing. I think it's going to confuse the audience when the Fox broadcast starts and the cars have already left on the formation lap. In my area, there is just paid programming before the race, so it's not like they would be preempting something important.

Exactly !!

If Fox wants to feck around in this way, why the feck do they have to bid on these telecast rights in the first place? They'd rather not do it instead of half-assing it. A$$hats !!

[lostsoldier]

sebenste is sort of on track, but it has nothing to do with Burnie not wanting to have F1 broadcast in WS or HD in North America, it's because the douchebag doesn't want F1 in North America at all. I was at Indy in 2005, Burnie doesn't care about US race fans. Though he should, as marketing doesn't lie, and the #2 merchandiser in New York City is NASCAR right behind the NFL.

U.S. motorsports fans have the money and the will, you just have to give them a product. For proof of that, I give you this years Indy 500. American open wheel racing has been dead since the split, yet the Indy 500 banged out an estimated 270,000 in attendance. Why, because they marketed the hell out of it. No CART or IRL race this year will get even close to that number at the track, but no one is bothering to market either. American motorsports fans are an eclectic group, you just have to give them what they want and they support you. Just watch Wind Tunnel to find out what I mean.

So, Burnie, wheres the love for the largest motorsports market in the world?

[slowbiscuit]

Originally Posted by raaj

Quid-Pro-Quo my friend.. quid-pro-quo !!

NBA and NFL champions are heralded "World Champions" when each of them have only in fact won the championship of the corresponding National body/league of that sport in the North America. Having foreign players and being telecast in other countries of the world does not make them "World Champions" any more than what makes Formula1 the "premier form of motorsport" in the world.

Touche', I'll grant you that one - I think it's equally ridiculous to call baseball's championship the 'World Series', that the other US sports go overboard as you said, or that F1 is the 'world's premier motorsport'. All of it is unjustified hype.

Now why is it that we can't see the Montreal GP in HD on Fox today?

[Offline]

Originally Posted by lostsoldier

sebenste is sort of on track, but it has nothing to do with Burnie not wanting to have F1 broadcast in WS or HD in North America, it's because the douchebag doesn't want F1 in North America at all.

I would hardly call that accurate (although sometimes I do wonder what Bernie is thinking - if at all).

Anyway, it is 2:11am here as I type this so I just hope that the live event (3am start) here isn't delayed during the race but I assume it won't be since it is scheduled to show "The CBS Early Show" at 5am. Why do they bother? Why not play until 6am as they have always done with post race items. They won't even fit in the interviews at this rate. Oh well, at least it is live and in 16:9 here .

[Ken H]

Originally Posted by jp23mc

I don't think I ever remember any of the 4 major networks upconverting an SD 16:9 to HD.....

Your memory is in need of correction. FOX upconverts 16:9 SD all the time, and has for years. Examples are COPS, Fox Sunday News, etc.

In fact, Fox has always seemed ahead of the HD game as far as networks go. Heck, CBS had the same NFL contract as Fox but broadcasted half as many games in HD last year.

More corrections. CBS consistently does more HD than any other OTA network, both prime time and sports. They do more weekends of HD sports each year than any other OTA network. CBS first did the NFL in HD in 1998. FOX didn't do any HD until 2004.

[Petteri]

TSN-HD is up in widescreen SD.....

[DonCoolio]

At least I get to watch OTA instead of D* SD-lite.
Looks like 4:3 HD compared to what I have been watching.

[giedrys]

The most intense and exciting grand prix so far in this season. Thank you Fox for screwing everything up with far too many commercials at the worst possible moments and for cutting off after the race interviews and more. Fox sucks, i want Speed channel coverage back!!!

[joker454]

Originally Posted by Petteri

TSN-HD is up in widescreen SD.....

Yup, just watched it. I'll never understand why people who are willing to spend hundreds on HD programming, thousands on a tv, mounting OTA antennas, etc, don't just also get Canadian satellite tv and be done with it. American tv coverage is terrible for certain things (Olympics, f1, hockey, etc...) and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future, so why not just add on Expressvu and be done with it. If you have a home, its very easy.

[raaj]

Originally Posted by giedrys

The most intense and exciting grand prix so far in this season. Thank you Fox for screwing everything up with far too many commercials at the worst possible moments and for cutting off after the race interviews and more. Fox sucks, i want Speed channel coverage back!!!

Thank goodness we at least had the Speed channel commentary team on Fox. Last year's CBS commentary team was atrocious.

[Lanny3]

Anyway, I am in a grumpy mood today since Fox screwed up and did not telecast the qualifying rounds of the Montreal GP.

Fox didn't screw up, qualifying was on the SPEED channel as advertised. Only the race was to be carried on Fox.

[rosenkavalier]

Originally Posted by raaj

Thank goodness we at least had the Speed channel commentary team on Fox. Last year's CBS commentary team was atrocious.

"Good news, everyone!" During the Friday practice coverage over on Speed, the announce team mentioned (let it slip) that Derek Daly will be "joining" them for the Sunday Fox broadcast from Indy.

Somehow I think this t-shirt is appropriate for how I felt at that moment:
http://www.pennyarcademerch.com/pat070321.html

[jig]

some misconceptions:

speed has not been broadcasting in wide screen. or, if they have, at least in my market the cable company has chopped it. i don't think that would ever happen, so my guess is that speed doesn't broadcast widescreen anywhere.

fox basically bought speeds version of the race. speed is a separate subsidiary of fox, so you'd hope they could work out the details to get the best possible feed... but the problem is that they bought the feed from speed, and speed only has rights to 4:3 from bernie. it would make no sense for them to contract for more, mainly because they don't have or need the infrastructure for any of the rest of their programming.

bernie does care about the US market, he's just fed up with indianapolis' management. regardless of how many people in the US watch it on tv, the race brings a huge amount of money into indy (more than almost any nascar race), yet it gets treated as a second class citizen. it rubs the wrong way when other venues have the entire country (local and national govt. included) behind making the race as spectacular as possible. indy speedway regularly falls short of its promises for promotion.

regardless of what the international feed is, higher quality end result costs more in terms of licensing from bernie. it does not cost any less (infrastructure wise) to broadcast a 480p feed on an HD channel than it does to broadcast full 16:9 HD. period. the commercials, if nothing else, should tell you that: there were both HD and SD commercials broadcast during the race.

and, i'm pretty sure the 480p WAS upconverted to 720 or 1080 with black bars on the left and right anyway. my tv isn't set to auto zoom, so if it was truly just 480p i would have seen bars on the top and bottom.

summary: it was a good broadcast, great quality and with our beloved commentators. we're probably limited to what speed can supply, either by contract or through some kind of hardware limitation that they have no incentive to "fix" for 99.999% of the rest of their broadcasts. until speed is available in an HD flavor, we're probably stuck with 4:3, at least with speed's commentary.


edit--> ug, just saw derek daly will be "helping" next week. woe is us.

[RichardL]

Even worse, I just found out that KTVU in the SF Bay Area isn't even showing the Indy race - its showing Giants Baseball instead.

[rustycruiser]

The highlight of the race was Sato in the Super Best Friends Honda passing Alonso in the McLaren. I actually laughed out loud. Awesome!

[Ken H]

Originally Posted by TVOD

This is true, but if that philopshphy was followed, why would any of the TV networks adopt HD now? I understand the producers future proofing their programs, but that doesn't mean it has to be broadcast in HD. Perhaps it's seeding the viewers' interest now in HD to keep them interested later.

The real future proofing is getting as many viewers hooked on HD as possible. Thus the high ratings programs, like the NFL, having such early and broad HD availability.