HELP - AVCHD vs HDV (tape)

[Raymundo]

Hi,

I am about to buy an HD camcorder, and need help choosing between AVCHD format (Panasonic SD1) and HDV (Tape) like the Canon HV20 or Sony HDR-HC7

Here are my issues:

1. I have a Mac. So my options are limited with AVCHD transfer and editing. Is this true?

2. I like the Memory stick flexibility of AVCHD but worry that the quality is compromised by the "trail" factor i read about on Camcorderinfo.com
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

3. How difficult is it to get HDV (Tape) and/or AVCHD onto my Hard-drive, and once there is it flexible to convert to Regular DVD and or HD-DVD/BLU-Ray.


thanks for your comments.

[dp70]

In two weeks with a Panasonic SD3, I haven't noticed this "trail factor" yet. As far as ease of copying material out of the camera, there's simply one file per clip on a standard FAT-formatted SD card. If you can read files from a USB thumb drive, you can read files from the camera, and the transfer rate is faster than capturing HDV over Firewire.

I haven't heard of any Mac apps that support natively editing AVCHD yet, but I'd expect Apple's own apps to be catching up soon. In the meantime, it is possible to use free command-line tools to convert the clips into other formats, including ones you can edit today. This thread has the details. (There's a fairly high geek factor here, as you'll need to download and build the tools yourself, but I can confirm the solution does work.)

If you don't mind dealing with tape and need to edit your clips today, probably the HV20 is your best bet. If you want about the same quality as HDV with the advantages of going tapeless, don't need 24p, and you can wait a bit for editing apps to catch up, the SD1 is a very nice camera.

[Cyrano]

I would like to get the SD1. Except for the archiving and editing problems. (I have a PC and the lack of support is a concern) Getting a camera with a possibility of solutions to large problems is not a good idea.

Perhaps the problems will be fixed soon. If so I will get the SD1 (or SD3 if the price comes down). But the Canon looks like the camera I will end up with.

HERE'S a link to a shootout at Camcorderinfo between the Canon, the Panny, a Sony and a JVC. Lots of edifying info in the article.

HERE is another review of the SD1. Good review.
Good luck

[Raymundo]

Thanks for your feed back. If the quality is not compromised, then i dont mind becoming a geek - to get files transfered, but definitely like the tapeless version. Will probably get the SD1.

[GodobeHD]

One of the concerns I have with AVCHD is its lack of standarization so far. It seems that Sony AVCHD videos can not be played in Panasonic AVCHD cams and vice versa. I know that with miniDV you can play any tape in SD or HD from any manufactures in these in HDV cams. If getting into AVCHD means sticking with one manufacture then it would make me think twice about it.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by GodobeHD

One of the concerns I have with AVCHD is its lack of standarization so far. It seems that Sony AVCHD videos can not be played in Panasonic AVCHD cams and vice versa. I know that with miniDV you can play any tape in SD or HD from any manufactures in these in HDV cams. If getting into AVCHD means sticking with one manufacture then it would make me think twice about it.

I did not know this fact. It definitely puts me back on the MiniDV track.

[dp70]

The problem in moving AVCHD .MTS files between cameras may be that clips written by the camera include corresponding metadata files off in another directory. If you place your own .MTS files into the camera's storage, I'd bet they will not show up for playback in the camera's UI unless you supply appropriate metadata files as well. (The metadata files are not needed to use the footage outside the camera, for example in editing applications.)

I don't view this as much of a limitation, since I'll only be using the camera for playback of clips I haven't downloaded yet ("Hey, now that we're home, let's check out that vacation footage we just shot."). Likewise, I would never transfer digital photos back into a digital camera to view them. To play AVCHD files natively, once the've been downloaded from the camera, you can use certain H.264-capable network media players such as the Tvix 4100SH and Tomacro limHD200i. You can also use a PS3 or other Blu-Ray player, or a PC equipped with hardware-accelerated H.264 decoding (video card with nvidia 8500/8600 etc.). Personally, I think the network media player route is the best solution, regardless of whether one chooses HDV or AVCHD (these players can play HDV MPEG2 clips as well).

[bigbarney]

Originally Posted by GodobeHD

One of the concerns I have with AVCHD is its lack of standarization so far. It seems that Sony AVCHD videos can not be played in Panasonic AVCHD cams and vice versa. I know that with miniDV you can play any tape in SD or HD from any manufactures in these in HDV cams. If getting into AVCHD means sticking with one manufacture then it would make me think twice about it.

This is absolutely true... there are different BREEDS of avchd out there so you need to be careful. They are not interchangeable from different brands of cams. The sad part about it is that very few people know this.

[gurkan]

I hope that canon comes up with a sdhc version of hv20 within this year.
Of course not with seashell looking body of hr10 but with a barrel type of body.
And perhaps it can spice things up with dual card writing technology.

They don't need to wait for gresham's law (shelf life of a product) cos both products have different spectators.

[galileo2000]

HDV is superior to AVCHD in terms of PQ.

Tape is superior to HDD/DVD for the archiving.

If both those factors are no concern for you and you prefer fast transfers of the video instead of capturing in realtime, go with AVCHD.

[0ctane]

Originally Posted by Raymundo

Here are my issues:
1. I have a Mac. So my options are limited with AVCHD transfer and editing. Is this true?

Well, there is an option now for Mac users. The free option is at this thread. The shareware option is Voltaic. Voltaic converts AVCHD *.MTS files into iMovieHD and Final Cut compatible, HDV1080i Apple Intermediate Codec movies.

[Raymundo]

Just in the nick of time....went to this website...http://www.mac1080hd.com
and it answers every concern i had.

[Abbas]

I have an off the wall question. It seems everyone is trying to convert files FROM AVCHD. Is there any software out there that will convert TO AVCHD?

[littlelio]

Originally Posted by Abbas

I have an off the wall question. It seems everyone is trying to convert files FROM AVCHD. Is there any software out there that will convert TO AVCHD?

Why do you want to convert data to AVCHD?

[dp70]

Originally Posted by Abbas

Is there any software out there that will convert TO AVCHD?

Yes, there is a reference encoder for H.264/AVC here; it can be built for Windows, Linux, OS X etc. It is not very fast, but it works and the quality is good.

You'll need to use ffmpeg to decode your source material to uncompressed YUV format to feed to this encoder.

If you're looking for an easy-to-use Windows app for this... I'm not aware of anything out there yet.

[Abbas]

Originally Posted by littlelio

Why do you want to convert data to AVCHD?

I cant get the PS3 to run any HD videos. I know for a fact that it can run AVCHD files so I would like to convert my HD material to that. What other HD formats can the PS3 run?

[Run4two]

I use NeroVision 4, part of the Nero 7 ultimate suite. It's buggy, but gets the job done. It is very slow. It takes 5 minutes to render 1 minute of high def .ts files.

[littlelio]

Originally Posted by Abbas

I cant get the PS3 to run any HD videos. I know for a fact that it can run AVCHD files so I would like to convert my HD material to that. What other HD formats can the PS3 run?

such as HDV MPEG-2, which is *.m2t file. I exported the video in this format using sony vegas studio platinum 8.0a and it works on my PS3.

[psdubya]

I recently purchased a Sony HDR-CX7 (Memory Stick) camcorder. This camcorder is absolutely amazing.

So here is my question;

How can I archive my footage without using the PC only Sony software?

I was hoping I could simply copy the .mts files from the Memory Stick to my storage drives. This is possible, but what I cannot seem to find is a viewer, especially one that is Mac compatible. There are means to convert .mts files to a different format, I would like to avoid this though as it creates enormously large files.

[Raymundo]

Hi guys... went to the store... and did a complete UTURN... bought the Sony SR5. I am testing it now, and had to take some immediate footage and because i dont have a HD Burner, i recorded the footage in Standard Definition format.

NOW........i dont know how to get my iMOVIE to import teh files i downloaded (to my Hard-drive.)

Can anyone tell me what to do. Is it something do with the fact that my "corresponding" Meta files are still on my camera, and not on my Hard Drive. If that is the case, how do i get the "corressponding" Meta files from my camera to my Hard Drive.

[0ctane]

Originally Posted by psdubya

I recently purchased a Sony HDR-CX7 (Memory Stick) camcorder. This camcorder is absolutely amazing.

So here is my question;

How can I archive my footage without using the PC only Sony software?

I would just burn your *.MTS files to a DVD. I suppose you could burn the whole directory structure from the memorystick (pretty easy since the largest memorystick I know of is 4GB).

I was hoping I could simply copy the .mts files from the Memory Stick to my storage drives. This is possible, but what I cannot seem to find is a viewer, especially one that is Mac compatible. There are means to convert .mts files to a different format, I would like to avoid this though as it creates enormously large files.

Yeah, Voltaic creates pretty large files. I suppose you could use QuicktimePro to convert those files to something smaller (h264 or mpeg4).

[shaggnasty]

Originally Posted by psdubya

I recently purchased a Sony HDR-CX7 (Memory Stick) camcorder. This camcorder is absolutely amazing.

So here is my question;

How can I archive my footage without using the PC only Sony software?

I was hoping I could simply copy the .mts files from the Memory Stick to my storage drives. This is possible, but what I cannot seem to find is a viewer, especially one that is Mac compatible. There are means to convert .mts files to a different format, I would like to avoid this though as it creates enormously large files.

Have you had a chance to see the difference in the highest/next to highest resolution? I just got mine today and wondered if it was worth the extra memory space.

[psdubya]

Originally Posted by 0ctane

I would just burn your *.MTS files to a DVD. I suppose you could burn the whole directory structure from the memorystick (pretty easy since the largest memorystick I know of is 4GB).


Yeah, Voltaic creates pretty large files. I suppose you could use QuicktimePro to convert those files to something smaller (h264 or mpeg4).

Actually after posting I came across CoreAVC CorePlayer Pro and CoreAVC Quicktime for Mac OS X (Windows too I suppose) , although they currently are not selling the software, it sounds like the solution I am looking for. From what I understand it should be able to play .mts files natively.

If all works as planned I will just copy the .mts files to my raid, just like you would with your photos, play them with a CoreAVC product on demand, and output them on my HDTV via my Mac Pro.

[psdubya]

Originally Posted by shaggnasty

Have you had a chance to see the difference in the highest/next to highest resolution? I just got mine today and wondered if it was worth the extra memory space.

Well I just got mine yesterday and have not had time to compare those settings yet. Besides I have not even been able to play the footage natively on my HDTV as there are no players for Mac OS X. Please post your findings; I will surely post mine when I can compare the settings.

[Raymundo]

"I suppose you could use QuicktimePro to convert those files to something smaller (h264 or mpeg4)."

How do i do that? Also, cant simply burn the file... it is 19gig long!! Need to edit it to reduce it.

[0ctane]

Originally Posted by Raymundo

How do i do that? Also, cant simply burn the file... it is 19gig long!! Need to edit it to reduce it.

Open the converted video (from Voltaic) in Quicktime Pro. Go to File->Export. CLick on the Options button. From there, you can choose different compressors. h264 will give you a size similar to the original AVCHD file size.

[donfenyk]

Originally Posted by galileo2000

HDV is superior to AVCHD in terms of PQ.

Tape is superior to HDD/DVD for the archiving.

If both those factors are no concern for you and you prefer fast transfers of the video instead of capturing in realtime, go with AVCHD.

Huh what -??????

AVCHD at its highest frame rate yeilds more resoltuion then HDV...

Tape superior to HDD????? - what could be easier then hooking a Hard drive camcorder to a computer and pulling files off of it - only the files you want to keep. Tape is 1)slow 2) no random access

I already posted the below info but wanted others to understand AVCHD and HDV differences....

AVCHD uses MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 compression and encoding for video recording. HDV, on the other hand, uses MPEG-2 Main Profile @ High-1440. Anyone who has compressed an HD video feed to H.264 and to MPEG-2 High-1440 at the same bit rate will tell you that the H.264 version is noticeably better. And this is the first "rub" to HDV users -- AVCHD uses an almost identical data rate (24 Mbps) -- in an MPEG-2 transport stream wrapper. There are other video advantages in the AVCHD format. For example, it allows for 16:9 aspect ratio pictures in HD with a raster size of 1920x1080 in addition to the HDV raster sizes of 1440x1080 and 1280x720. At the larger raster size, AVCHD has the potential to produce higher horizontal resolution than HDV. AVCHD recording supports 1080i/24/50/60, as well as 720p/24/50/60. Plus, the new format supports 16:9 and 4:3 SD raster sizes of 720x480 at 60i (NTSC) and 720x576 at 50i (PAL). Digging a little deeper into the two specs, AVCHD has an advantage over HDV in luminance sampling of 1080 video. With the 1920x1080 raster, AVCHD uses a luminance sampling frequency of 74.25 MHz, compared to HDV's 55.7 MHz. In HDV, the higher luminance sampling frequency is reserved for its 720p recording modes, which may explain why 720p HDV can show higher horizontal resolution than 1080i HDV. When AVCHD is set to use the 1440x1080 raster, however, it appears that the standard requires the use of 55.7 MHz luminance sampling, and that will limit AVCHD's advantage solely to the superiority of H.264 encoding. AVCHD calls for audio recording Dolby AC-3 for one channel or up to 5.1 channels, with data rates from 64 kbps to 640 kbps, or in PCM up to 7.1 at 1.5 Mbps per 2 channels. HDV is limited to two channels of audio compressed with MPEG-1 layer II to 384 kbps. The difference in audio specs might be a giveaway as to why yet another "consumer" HD format has been introduced.

[latedate]

Originally Posted by donfenyk

Huh what -??????

AVCHD at its highest frame rate yeilds more resoltuion then HDV...

Tape superior to HDD????? - what could be easier then hooking a Hard drive camcorder to a computer and pulling files off of it - only the files you want to keep. Tape is 1)slow 2) no random access
.

All other factors aside, the first 2 points you make are very minimal to someone like me. The first thing I do when I finish a tape is capture it to a HDD. Yes, this is a realtime process but I don't care because I don't go through tapes so frequently; if I was a day-to-day professional videographer, then perhaps I'd feel differently about it. As a result of this "painful" process, I get a free tape backup in case my HDD fails (so it's not a cost without benefit). Your second point about "no random access" is moot if you plan on working with the captured video (which *has* random access). Who on earth uses their HDV camcorder as a playing device? HOWEVER, due to the limitations of HDV tape (bitrate and resolution), I can see more potential for HDD-based systems in the future.

[bigbarney]

Originally Posted by donfenyk

AVCHD at its highest frame rate yeilds more resoltuion then HDV...

This may be perfectly true... and it is also true that AVCHD is a more advanced format that is more efficient than mpeg2 based HDV.... but you still can't edit it anywhere near as easily and efficiently as mpeg2 base.... and until this happens, AVCHD won't be much more than what it is.... a novelty.

Originally Posted by donfenyk

Tape superior to HDD????? - what could be easier then hooking a Hard drive camcorder to a computer and pulling files off of it - only the files you want to keep. Tape is 1)slow 2) no random access

HDD's are certainly more effective than tape... no doubt about it, but it still costs about 1/2 as much to archive on tape as opposed to HDD. The big problem with HDD's (as I see it anyway) is not really the HDD at all but rather these new formats they keep coming up with. If they took good ole fashioned, dependable mpeg2 based hi def, combined it with a HDD.... my guess is that they would have a winner... at least until avchd has a chance to really mature. They came pretty close with the JVC HD7, but JVC had to ruin it by taking the mpeg one step further.

AVCHD is a good format, and I don't knock it at all... but we're not QUITE ready for it yet. It still needs a bit of mature time. Until then, mpeg2 based tape, when all things considered, is the safest bet.

[donfenyk]

I dont disagree at all -but that is today - what about tomorrow?? AVCHD seems to be showing up on more and more new models - i personally cant buy a new product every year to keep up with technology - so when making my decision i went with a new technology that seemed to be gaining popularity. Right choice i dont know - purchase made - no looking back.

As far as using my camcorder for a playback device - i do so alot when i am away from home - (ie shooting video of my daughter swimming in grandma and grandpa's pool and watching the video after dinner).

The AVS Forum is great and i apreciate all the information i have gained from it on HD products.